1 CITY OF MILWAUKEE LICENSES COMMITTEE * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * In the Matter of: SAL & SAL GROUP, LLC, Class "B" Tavern and Tavern Dance Renewal Application SALEH SALEM, "CLUB FUEGO" 430 South 2nd Street * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Proceedings had and testimony given in the above-entitled matter before the LICENSES COMMITTEE CITY OF MILWAUKEE on the 26th day of January, 2010. 2 1 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Our final item of the 3 day, Saleh Salem, agent for Sal & Sal Group, LLC, 4 Class "B" Tavern and Tavern Dance Renewal 5 Application for Club Fuego at 430 South 2nd 6 Street. Good afternoon to you. 7 MR. ATTA: Good afternoon. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We have an attorney 9 representing. 10 MR. ATTA: Attorney Othman Atta. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm sorry? 12 MR. ATTA: Othman Atta, O-T-H-M-A-N, 13 A-T-T-A. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, and for our 15 applicant, if you could raise your right hand, we 16 will swear you in, please? I take it others who 17 are present here are all, are wishing to provide 18 testimony. If we could, everyone who is present 19 who intends to provide testimony, short of the 20 attorney, please raise your right hand, we'll 21 swear you in. 22 MS. BLACK: Do you solemnly affirm under 23 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 24 Wisconsin the testimony you are about to give is 25 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 3 1 truth? 2 ALL: I do. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. We'll ask 4 for your name and address for the record, please. 5 MR. SALEM: Saleh Salem, 430 South 2nd 6 Street. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Mr. Salem, 8 do you acknowledge receiving notice of today's 9 meeting with the possibility your application 10 could be denied? An attached police report should 11 have been part of your notice as well as an 12 outline of potential neighborhood objections. 13 MR. SALEM: Yes, sir. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. This is a 15 renewal, so we should have no holds. Sergeant, 16 we'll go right to the police report, please. 17 SERGEANT MACGILLIS: I'll start on Page 18 3, Item 4, top of the page: 19 On 3/10/2009 at 4:47 a.m., Milwaukee 20 Police were dispatched to 2563 South 7th Street 21 for a battery complaint. The investigation 22 revealed a fight occurred outside a bar between 23 patrons at the bar close. All actors involved 24 were gone upon police arrival. Owner of the bar 25 was not on that scene and the officers left a 4 1 message on the owner's phone regarding the 2 incident. 3 Just one second please, sir. I have no 4 idea what that's doing in there. Do you own a 5 property, sir, at 2563 South 7th Street? 6 MR. SALEM: No. 7 MR. MACGILLIS: Mr. Chair, obviously, 8 there is a mistake here. Until we sort it out, 9 perhaps we can delete Item 4. I'll continue on to 10 Item 5. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: For the record, we'll 12 omit Item No. 4 from our police report here before 13 us. 14 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair, it could be 15 that that's where the people ended up, but that 16 they indicated the fight had happened at the bar. 17 "Investigation revealed a fight occurred outside 18 the bar between patrons at bar close. All actors 19 were gone upon police arrival." 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yeah. Sergeant, does it 21 read that way? 22 MR. MACGILLIS: That's a possibility. I 23 certainly wish it had been -- I'll take the 24 responsibility for the poor writing, but in the 25 future, we'll try to tighten things up a little 5 1 bit. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Do you have a K33 for 3 that item? 4 MR. MACGILLIS: No, I don't, and neither 5 do I have a CAD printout for that. It's almost a 6 year ago. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Let's -- if I may, 8 before we move on, I want to make a decision as a 9 committee on the item here before we ask you to 10 move on. Is there a determination here? I mean, 11 I'll take a motion here from the committee. 12 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Maybe we could ask the 13 applicant if they have any memory of that night. 14 MR. SALEM: I'm always there, so if the 15 cops came, I would have been there. 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Whether or not there 17 was a fight that night? 18 MR. SALEM: There was no fight that 19 night. 20 MR. ATTA: If I could comment on that? 21 There's two concerns here: No. 1, the address, 22 which is obviously way off; the second is the time 23 at 4:47. I mean, you're talking about over or 24 close to three hours after the time that the club 25 would have to close. So neither of those points 6 1 of information make sense to include this in this. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: What time does your bar 3 close? 4 MR. SALEM: 2:00, and we turn the lights 5 on at 1:30. 6 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderwoman Coggs. 8 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I think in all 9 fairness we can't consider Item No. 4 because of 10 its incompleteness, against the applicant. - I'll 11 move that we -- 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 13 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: But is it possible to 14 leave it open? If we were later, in the future, 15 like next year, when he comes up for license. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: A motion would be made 17 at the time. Unless you want to make a motion now 18 that it be excluded but potentially left open. 19 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Yeah, I'll move that. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And the only thing that 21 I will say is, again, based on the scenario of the 22 time, 4:47, that may not be a discrepancy. What 23 could happen is somebody was injured in a fight, 24 and there is a battery complaint, drove home where 25 they felt safer, made a phone call from home, 7 1 4:47, according to the scenario at the time, the 2 police were dispatched. It doesn't say when that 3 -- that that is when it occurred. Now, would I 4 prefer for that to say, "Police were dispatched at 5 4:47. Based on the discussion with the 6 individual, they stated at 2:05 at leaving the 7 bar, they were injured in a fight right outside 8 the bar, so and so, so and so," yes, do I believe 9 that. The only thing that I will say by us 10 leaving it open, Sergeant, is if there is a 11 renewal of any sort here, if you could please make 12 certain that this is part of the item that is 13 clarified if this ever comes up again, so that we 14 get a better description here? 15 MR. MACGILLIS: We certainly will, Mr. 16 Chair. It's poorly written. I don't understand 17 it. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. So the 19 motion by Alderwoman Coggs would be to exclude 20 Item No. 4 but that we will potentially leave it 21 open for future use if based on an official 22 investigation it's determined that there is a tie 23 to this location. Are there any objections to 24 that? Hearing none, so ordered. All right. 25 Sergeant, why don't you please proceed 8 1 then with Item No. 5? 2 MR. MACGILLIS: Certainly, Item 5: On 3 4/18/2009 at 2:46 a.m., Milwaukee Police were 4 dispatched to St. Luke's Hospital for a battery, 5 cutting complaint. Officers spoke to the victim 6 who stated she was stabbed multiple times by a 7 known female. Investigation revealed the victim 8 was inside the Club Fuego tavern when she passed a 9 known female and words were exchanged. They both 10 began fighting, and with security breaking up the 11 fight, security had one patron leave the bar with 12 the other leaving 20 minutes later. The first 13 patron was outside waiting for the other, and the 14 two began fighting again. It was learned that the 15 victim was holding a knife while fighting and 16 ended up cutting herself in the hand in the 17 process. Both patrons were ordered in the DA's 18 office to have this case reviewed. No charges 19 were issued. 20 Item 6: On 10/8/2009 at 11:40 p.m., 21 Milwaukee Police conducted a license premises 22 check at 430 South 2nd Street. Officers spoke to 23 Saleh Salem and no tavern violations were found. 24 While there, officers did receive the complaint of 25 possible underage patrons, which was found 9 1 baseless. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Any 3 questions, comments relating to items in the 4 police report? 5 MR. ATTA: Just one small comment, which 6 is that my client obviously had security. 7 Security saw that there was an incident. They did 8 intervene. I think they intervened in a very 9 appropriate manner, having one patron leave and 10 then waiting for a substantial period of time 11 before having the other patron leave. 12 Clearly, the alleged victim here lied 13 when she indicated that she was stabbed multiple 14 times by another known female. And apparently it 15 was either the police or the DA that determined 16 that it was either self-inflicted, or somehow she 17 cut herself. So we really don't have much 18 information. I really don't know why there were 19 no charges issued against these individuals. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Are there 21 any questions the committee has relating to those 22 items? Mr. Salem, Mr. Atta, was there any opening 23 statement that you want to make? 24 MR. SALEM: No. 25 MR. ATTA: I will make just a short 10 1 opening statement, which is that I have worked 2 with this individual for a number of years. I do 3 mainly his business-related and legal work. I 4 know him to be a very conscientious individual. I 5 do believe that he runs a very tight operation. 6 There will be witnesses who will present 7 today with regards to the kind of security 8 arrangements that he has and the type of operation 9 that he does run. You will also hear from some 10 adjoining property and businessowners who will 11 also testify as to what they believe his practices 12 are, and how they are here actually to support his 13 application. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Alderman 15 Witkowiak, did you want to wait for the 16 residential testimony, or do you wish to make 17 comments now? 18 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: You know, this, you 19 have a lengthy package relative to this renewal 20 application, 72 pages I believe, and many of them 21 are based on complaints of a couple different 22 things in nature, fighting and general havoc, 23 appears to be around closing time. We received 24 those complaints. I received some of them 25 verbally through the telephone. We received some 11 1 of them via e-mail, which we've forwarded to the 2 license division to put in this file. We 3 explained to all of the people involved with these 4 complaints that they would actually have to come 5 to the committee and give personal testimony. I 6 can testify to the fact that those complaints 7 were, in fact, were made. The ones you see in 8 e-mail are in your package. 9 As far as what the resolution of this 10 case will eventually be, will be most determined 11 by the amount and quality of the evidence 12 presented today. So I'd like to hear from the 13 people that are here to speak. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Our code 15 dictates that individuals who are here in 16 opposition would be the first to provide 17 testimony. Of the individuals who are present and 18 were sworn in here previously, I would like to see 19 a show of hands of those who are here in 20 opposition to the license. Okay. What we'll do 21 is, what I'll ask is that if several of you could 22 take seats in the front row here, that we can 23 proceed in an orderly fashion. I'd like to, if 24 possible, use the standing microphone. 25 We will need your name, if there is a 12 1 difficult spelling of your name, if you could 2 spell it to assist our court reporter and our 3 clerk here, that would be helpful, and your 4 address, and then we'll take your testimony. I'd 5 like to try to keep testimony as succinct as 6 possible. So as much as we can keep it in the 7 timeframe of around two minutes, that would be 8 helpful. 9 The other thing that I will say is, if 10 you are unable to physically stand at the standing 11 microphone, you may certainly take a seat here at 12 the table, and we'll take your testimony then as 13 well, too. What we will do is ask those 14 individuals who are here in opposition if they 15 could just filter in the front row, then we can 16 continue in an orderly procession. And then the 17 first one that makes it to the microphone, we'll 18 take your testimony here first. 19 Good afternoon. Start saying good 20 evening. 21 MS. KAUFMANN: Good evening. Julie 22 Kaufmann, K-A-U-F-M-A-N-N, 602 South 3rd Street. 23 I'll try and be brief. You are going to 24 get a lot of testimony. I want to speak on behalf 25 of myself personally. I also am the licensed 13 1 chair of the neighborhood association and have 2 spoken with a number of people who are not here 3 today. As you well know, these are long events, 4 people can't get off work. So for what it's 5 worth, I've directly heard from many different 6 people who couldn't attend. I'd be interested to 7 make sure that you qualify whoever does testify in 8 support of this license that you find out where 9 they are coming from, if they truly are neighbors, 10 when you take this into consideration. I live and 11 work directly in the neighborhood. 12 We are a neighborhood of lots of bars. 13 So what you're going to hear is not that we're 14 opposed to all bars. We come here all the time, 15 and we support some of our bar neighbors. We are 16 used to activity that's appropriate. And I think 17 most of what you are going to hear, this is an 18 exceptional bar; exceptionally negative. 19 Personally I've observed significant 20 loitering. Particularly on Thursdays and 21 Saturdays outside the bar, particularly around 22 closing time between 1:00 and 2:30 a.m. I've 23 personally observed a lot of beer bottles 24 subsequent to closing, the following day when I 25 walk that street with my child. 14 1 It's often loud. One of the biggest 2 concerns I have is the traffic. When it closes 3 down, there is a lot of -- the loitering leads to 4 people in cars, loud music, sometimes drag racing, 5 very destructive, havoc. 6 There are two other bar owners I've 7 spoken to who aren't present because they are 8 concerned about not being supportive of their 9 brotherhood, but they're not going to testify here 10 today -- 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, I don't -- the 12 attorney is going to raise an objection to that, 13 and I'm going to -- 14 MS. KAUFMANN: Okay. It's unfortunate, 15 I just want you to know that you're going to hear 16 -- and what we expect is you're going to hear -- 17 it's the stuff you always hear, people won't show 18 up, it's the same stuff we hear at all these 19 hearings. I really strongly advocate that you 20 work through the negative, they're an exceptional 21 bar. 22 I know that they're trying to work hard. 23 They met with our association recently at our 24 request, not at their proactive behavior. It was 25 the neighborhood that requested, "Can you improve 15 1 what you are doing because it's a problem?" And 2 so, they were receptive of that, but I want you to 3 know is when that happened: Right before the 4 license hearing. And I think that past behavior 5 is the best indicator of future performance. So I 6 think -- I hope you take that into consideration. 7 They did indicate they would work with the 8 neighborhood. I sure hope they do. 9 I'm sure you're not going to vote to 10 remove the license, so I hope you send a message 11 by at least suspending it for a significant amount 12 of time. Thank you. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Ms. 14 Kaufmann, if you could hold on, there may be 15 questions for you, please, and for future 16 individuals here who are providing testimony. 17 Questions by committee, please? 18 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Mr. Chair. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Hamilton. 20 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: How long have you 21 lived in the area? 22 MS. KAUFMANN: Four years. 23 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: And the problems at 24 the bar were consistent since the bar has been 25 there? 16 1 MS. KAUFMANN: Yeah, the ebb and flow, 2 right around license time, they tend to die down a 3 little bit. Although this week, there were a 4 couple incidents, and they die down in the winter 5 because it's quieter a little bit, but fairly 6 consistent. 7 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions by 9 committee? Mr. Atta, some questions? 10 MR. ATTA: Yes. Just a couple quick 11 questions. You indicated that there are beer 12 bottles that are outside. Are those, do you 13 believe, beer bottles that are sold within the 14 establishment of Fuego? 15 MS. KAUFMANN: I think -- I don't know 16 actually. It's in the proximity, so. And that's 17 the least of my concerns. 18 MR. ATTA: And you indicated that there 19 appears to be problems. Have you ever filed a 20 police report and the police have come in, 21 investigated, and if you know, issued some kind of 22 citation? 23 MS. KAUFMANN: For that, I can't recall. 24 I'm used to calling a lot, and frankly, what 25 happens is they're gone. It's like those 17 1 incidents that with a fight, or they piss on my 2 street, but you know, I can't associate it, so. 3 It's just -- you won't accept the testimony, but I 4 can tell you I know where the patrons are coming 5 from. 6 MR. ATTA: So they are coming just out 7 of this establishment, or you're sure of that and 8 not out of any of other -- 9 MS. KAUFMANN: Yeah, I've observed it. 10 MR. ATTA: -- multiple other bars in the 11 area? 12 MS. KAUFMANN: I can observe it. 13 MR. ATTA: So you're there regularly? 14 MS. KAUFMANN: Not regularly, but I have 15 observed it, mm mm. 16 MR. ATTA: And you said that this was 17 around 2:00 or 3:00 or -- 18 MS. KAUFMANN: Generally, the problem -- 19 depending on what situation you're asking me 20 about, I mean, most of the issues that I've 21 observed happened between 12:00, you know, 22 midnight, and then 2:00 a.m. They tend to let 23 their customers out around, you know, before bar 24 close. Usually closer to 1:30, from what I've 25 observed. 18 1 MR. ATTA: You indicate that there is a 2 lot of traffic in the area. For example, during 3 Summerfest, do you see a -- 4 MS. KAUFMANN: It's not Summerfest. 5 They have a -- they use Carolyn's parking lot, and 6 Soref's Carpet parking lot. They also park cars 7 across the street. So a lot of the cars that come 8 right out of the area at the same time the bar 9 closes, traffic related to that. 10 MR. ATTA: So Summerfest really has no 11 impact in this area? 12 MS. KAUFMANN: I don't know how to -- 13 Summerfest does have impact on the City of 14 Milwaukee, yes. 15 MR. ATTA: No further questions. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Any questions? Thank 17 you. Next witness, please. 18 MR. POGORELC: Hello, I'm James 19 Pogorelc. I live at 2739 North Shepard Avenue. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Spelling of your last 21 name, sir? 22 MR. POGORELC: It's P-O-G-O-R-E-L-C. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, and your 24 testimony. 25 MR. POGORELC: Well, I have a business 19 1 in the area as well. I own the residential 2 property in the area. And this past October, I 3 lost one tenant, and one of the reasons that they 4 left was citing Club Fuego, the activity, the 5 noise and the amount of debris. 6 MR. ATTA: Objection as hearsay. If he 7 can testify about his own personal knowledge, not 8 what other people are saying. 9 MR. POGORELC: Well, this was in a 10 letter. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: It's -- I'm going to 12 sustain that argument. 13 MR. POGORELC: You know, when we 14 originally, when they originally applied for a 15 license, it was a salsa bar, and I noticed that in 16 their literature they are now saying it's a top 40 17 bar. So one of the concerns is, you know, moving 18 to hip hop, and they assured us that that was not 19 going to occur, and that they were a salsa bar, 20 and they were going to be that. So obviously, 21 they've already started to move off that. I would 22 say that's a concern to me as a resident and a 23 property owner in the area. 24 Another -- my parents own a business in 25 the area. The amount of debris left around the 20 1 establishment has been substantial. 2 MR. ATTA: Again, I'm going to -- 3 MR. POGORELC: Again, the amount that 4 where it's coming from, I know that since they've 5 opened up, the amount of debris has increased 6 substantially, more than 200 percent if you want 7 to put a number on that, finding bottles, broken 8 bottles. And as far as stating where is it coming 9 from, I don't know if these people that they are 10 attracting are bringing the stuff in, drinking 11 before they get to their establishment and 12 dropping it wherever they see fit, or if it's, you 13 know, coming out of the establishment after bar 14 time. I can't tell you either way. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you for your 16 testimony. Questions by committee? 17 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Mr. Chair. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Hamilton. 19 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: I do have a question 20 I guess for the applicant. If initially they had 21 -- if there is a change in this application from 22 previous applications, and was it presented to the 23 neighborhood as a salsa bar? 24 MR. SALEM: It still is a salsa bar. 25 It's a Latin bar. That's what it is. Sometimes 21 1 we have special requests for top 40 and we'll 2 throw a song in here and there. We don't play hip 3 hop or top 40 at the club, but if somebody 4 requests a song downstairs -- we have two floors, 5 but we don't play hip hop or top 40 at the club. 6 This is a Spanish bar. It's a salsa club. 7 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Okay. So you 8 haven't changed the format? 9 MR. SALEM: No, we haven't, no. 10 MR. POGORELC: Here is one of their 11 pieces of advertising, if I could pass it to you. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, if you could allow 13 the attorney to see that first. 14 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: While we're waiting on 16 that, Alderman Kovac. 17 ALDERMAN KOVAC: You mentioned that you 18 observed the litter outside your parents' bar 19 getting out of hand -- 20 MR. POGORELC: And actually at my 21 property as well. 22 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Other than litter, what 23 else have you personally observed in terms of late 24 night noise or misbehavior on the street? I mean, 25 and if you hear this coming from the bar, or -- 22 1 MR. POGORELC: You hear -- there is 2 nothing out of the ordinary, you know, for an 3 establishment at the time when I'm there. I am 4 not there at 2:00 in the morning, so, you know, 5 but probably about 10:00 when I've been there, you 6 know, there's people walking in and out, but 7 that's normal. You know, that's normal for a bar, 8 bar area. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: First off, I will have 10 Alderman Kovac move to make the two-sided flyer on 11 Club Fuego a part of our official record in this 12 proceeding. And hearing no objections to that, so 13 ordered. Additional questions of this witness? 14 Mr. Atta, questions of this witness? 15 MR. ATTA: Just one question. What is 16 the address of your property? 17 MR. POGORELC: 408-410 South 3rd Street. 18 You're not going to cause problems for me, are 19 you? 20 MR. ATTA: You can visit me in my 21 office. 22 MR. POGORELC: It's not answering the 23 question. 24 MR. ATTA: I don't know what you're 25 implying. 23 1 MR. POGORELC: What are you thinking? 2 ALDERMAN KOVAC: You guys can handle 3 this after the hearing. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You're right, go out for 5 a cup of coffee. If I could do some follow-up 6 here, for the applicants, Mr. Salem, DJ Flex, what 7 type of music does he spin? 8 MR. SALEM: He is a Spanish DJ. He is 9 from Tequila Bar. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So what he would play 11 would be considered salsa? 12 MR. SALEM: Salsa, merengue, muchacha, 13 all the above. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. What about 15 DJ Palestine? 16 MR. SALEM: He does the same thing, 17 plays all Spanish music, and he is also from 18 Tequila Bar. We don't use that flyer. On the 19 back, we have new flyers. No, not that one, the 20 other one, the lady's night one. I didn't make 21 that flyer, they made it, and I denied it. We 22 used if for a few, maybe two weeks, then we got 23 rid of it. We have new flyers now. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. All right. Are 25 there questions by committee at this time? 24 1 MR. POGORELC: There are other flyers 2 that I have here. I don't know if you need these 3 as well, it is sort of supplementing that, but it 4 does indicate salsa on one of these from 2008. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: It's not in the license 6 -- unfortunately, what we need to take is items 7 that are from the last license year. 8 MR. POGORELC: Sure. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. All right. 10 While we're waiting to pass that around, if we can 11 hear from our next witness, please. 12 MS. JAGGARD: Hi, my name is Jacquelyn 13 Jaggard. My mailing address is P.O. Box 44281. 14 Do you need my resident address? 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Please. 16 MS. JAGGARD: 1113 South 3rd Street. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Ms. Jaggard. 18 Ms. Jaggard, please proceed. 19 MS. JAGGARD: I have spent some time 20 down at, in that area observing these occurrences 21 that go on at Fuego's because of the number of 22 complaints that, although it's hearsay, it can't 23 be admitted here, I have heard from my neighbors. 24 I have personally witnessed fights out in the 25 street, people that have been injured in these 25 1 fights, being picked up, carried and dumped in a 2 car parked by the side of the road. I've seen 3 cars pull up in front of Fuego's, sit in the car 4 for an hour drinking and tossing the bottles out 5 the window. I, at bar closing, I have personally 6 witnessed customers coming out of Fuego's, walking 7 down the street and urinating against adjoining 8 properties. 9 So I feel this is a bar that is 10 detrimental to the neighborhood. I don't think 11 it's under very good control of the owner. He has 12 promised on several occasions to clean it up and 13 do a little bit better security. And as far as -- 14 and I also know for a fact that they have served 15 underage because my niece was in there one day and 16 she was well under 21. 17 MR. ATTA: I'll object to that. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Unfortunately, that is 19 going to be sustained because, if your niece were 20 present here, we would be able to do that. 21 MS. JAGGARD: Correct. So I'm opposed 22 to renewal of this license without at least some 23 substantial citations, or whatever you call it, 24 suspension. It's just, it's a detriment to the 25 neighborhood. It's a detriment to the other 26 1 businessowners and associations on 2nd Street, 2 which, as you know, is about to be repaved. 3 So I object to renewal of this license 4 without some substantial concessions on the part 5 of the owner. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Ms. Jaggard 7 was it? 8 MS. JAGGARD: Jaggard. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Jaggard, I'm sorry. Ms. 10 Jaggard, how often have you seen an instance in 11 the last year doing some of the things you're 12 talking about, the urination, the loitering, the 13 drinking outside? 14 MS. JAGGARD: I have not been down in 15 that area now since the beginning of December 16 because I had shoulder replacement surgery. I 17 sort of am laid up. But it was the very last 18 summer when I was down, and I was probably down at 19 least every other week either on a Thursday night 20 or a Saturday night, probably two dozen times over 21 a period of the summer months. As was stated 22 before, during the winter months, it's not always 23 as bad because of the weather being so cold. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: When you indicate that 25 you've been by there maybe a couple dozen times in 27 1 the course of the last year, so how regular were 2 you seeing occurrences of what you've described 3 here? 4 MS. JAGGARD: Almost every time I've 5 been down there. I usually go by Tony's Tavern 6 and have a soda because I've got a good view of 7 the street from there. We're keeping an eye on 8 activities at Fuego's because of the number of 9 complaints. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Any other taverns or 11 nightclubs in the area where the problematic 12 activities could be emanating from? 13 MS. JAGGARD: No, no. The only other 14 bar that I know of on that block is the one on the 15 corner, I think it's called Zans, and I have no 16 problems at all connected with that. 17 MR. SCHRIMPF: I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You have no problem, you 19 said no problem connecting with Zans, or you 20 aren't able to connect any problems with Zans? 21 MS. JAGGARD: Yeah, I have no complaints 22 against that. I see no problems with Zans. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: How do -- one final 24 question, how do you know that the items that 25 you're testifying about are relating to patrons at 28 1 Club Fuego versus the other establishment? 2 MS. JAGGARD: You see them walking out 3 the door. Obviously, they are coming from 4 Fuego's. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I mean, that's important 6 for us to get on the record because there is 7 another establishment in the area. 8 MS. JAGGARD: No, because these are 9 people that are seen going into and coming out 10 specifically from Fuego's. They cross in the 11 middle of the street, they fight in the middle of 12 the street. As people have testified, the driving 13 is terrible and very dangerous for people coming 14 down the street. So I don't know. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you for your 16 testimony. Questions by committee? Mr. Atta, 17 questions? 18 MR. ATTA: Yes. You indicated that you 19 usually go down there on Thursday night and 20 Saturday to Tony's, is that correct? 21 MS. JAGGARD: And/or Saturday, yes. 22 MR. ATTA: Or Saturday, Thursday and/or 23 Saturday. Why do you pick those two nights? 24 MS. JAGGARD: Because those are the 25 nights that people have told me that there are the 29 1 most problems with Fuego's. I think they're 2 closed on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. 3 MR. ATTA: So you are specifically going 4 down to look for problems, is that correct? 5 MS. JAGGARD: I'm specifically going 6 down to monitor the activity coming out of 7 Fuego's. 8 MR. ATTA: And have you filed police 9 reports where police actually came in, and you've 10 listed a litany of complaints, have you spoken to 11 the police where the police filed a report based 12 on your complaints? 13 MS. JAGGARD: I have talked to the 14 police department on a number of occasions. I 15 don't know that I have specifically called with a 16 specific complaint because it did not involve me. 17 I don't usually go home until I know for a fact 18 that most of the activity from Fuego's is gone for 19 the night. 20 MR. ATTA: You described Fuego's as 21 being a detriment to the neighborhood, is that 22 correct? 23 MS. JAGGARD: Correct. 24 MR. ATTA: Do you believe that it's 25 important for any property owner in the area to 30 1 abide by the municipal codes and ordinances in the 2 City of Milwaukee? 3 MS. JAGGARD: Certainly. 4 MR. ATTA: And you do reside at 1113 5 South 3rd Street, is that correct? 6 MS. JAGGARD: Correct. 7 MR. ATTA: And isn't it true that in 8 just 2009, you've been cited for seven times at 9 your property regarding -- 10 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Are we here to talk 11 about her, or -- 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Hold on, let me just -- 13 I just want to -- 14 AUDIENCE MEMBER: First off -- 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sir, sir, please, sir, 16 you are not here, and it's for me to run the 17 meeting, okay? If you want to, I'll -- come in my 18 district, run, become alderman, apply to be on 19 this committee and be chairman, and we will let 20 you run, okay? 21 I'm going to ask you the relevance here 22 in a second. 23 MR. ATTA: Sure, the relevance is she's 24 describing a problem of an establishment being a 25 detriment to the neighborhood. And what I'm 31 1 trying to show is that she may be pointing out to 2 this particular business of what she is making 3 claims about, however her own property has been 4 cited in one year seven times. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And here's the -- my 6 issue is, if he wants to complain to the 7 neighborhood zoning, or if she owns a license, he 8 can go there. She has every right to be here 9 regarding this establishment. Notwithstanding 10 that, I think she can make those comments 11 legitimately. I'm going to ask you to rephrase 12 that question here, and I'm going to not allow 13 that question. 14 MR. ATTA: I would -- 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You see how we handle 16 these things? We don't need outbursts from you or 17 anyone else. Thank you. 18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Sorry. 19 MR. ATTA: I have no further questions. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Thank you. Thank 21 you, Ma'am. 22 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderwoman Coggs. 24 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I have a question for 25 my own edification. Obviously, you knew who the 32 1 witness was, and you were able to do research on 2 her. How did you know that she would be here 3 tonight? 4 MR. ATTA: Well, there is a couple 5 things that I looked at. I actually looked at 6 some of the e-mail exchanges that had taken place, 7 which were in the packet that was provided by the 8 alderman. I also looked at the Journal Sentinel 9 online articles about the area and the people who 10 typically will go in and file complaints. And so, 11 when I tried to find her address, and so forth, I 12 just came up with information that I found very 13 troubling. 14 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Good 16 afternoon. Good evening. 17 MRS. POGORELC: Good evening. Ann 18 Pogorelc, P-O-G-O-R-E-L-C. I live at 414 South 19 2nd Street. My husband and I operate Tony's 20 Tavern at 412 South 2nd Street. 21 The reason -- I feel the first, very 22 first meeting we had at Fuego's before they -- 23 when they applied for their license, he said there 24 would be a dress code that was very strict. Well, 25 it is everything but. These people come dressed, 33 1 some of them like tramps, others come in bathing 2 suits in the wintertime and also in the summer, of 3 course, and beachwear. So you know where these 4 people are coming from when they leave Fuego's 5 because there is a certain trend about how they 6 look. 7 Another thing is, they have security, 8 but I can buy a dozen security shirts and put them 9 on anybody, and they can walk with "security" on 10 their back, and they have no -- they are very 11 unprofessional. They have no instance of taking 12 care of the neighborhood or of their property. 13 They walk women home, they walk women down the 14 street, you know, waddling together, and then they 15 go and neck in the parking lots. I see that 16 often, consistently. I see people carrying women 17 down the street like babies. These are the men 18 with the security shirts on. They need to get 19 security from an agency. They don't need to buy 20 these shirts and put them on everybody. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you for your 22 testimony. 23 MRS. POGORELC: I could repeat some of 24 the other stuff that other people have said, but I 25 know -- 34 1 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Mr. Chair. 2 MRS. POGORELC: -- you're running late, 3 and I'm not going to take any more of your time. 4 Oh, we have urination constantly on our 5 parking lot. I have to sometimes go out and block 6 off and close our gates so they don't come and use 7 our facility, our parking lot for a toilet. There 8 is numerous people, numerous, not just one. They 9 will stop, and they will just go in and do their 10 thing. 11 One night, this is something very 12 important, one evening, it was this past summer, 13 there were no cars in our lot, and we had a couple 14 going down the street and they turned in our lot. 15 And my husband went back to the back and he 16 noticed that they were going in our backyard. 17 Well, he went out and the male was already 18 unbuttoning his pants to do his sexual activities 19 with this woman. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And -- 21 MRS. POGORELC: This is not enhancing 22 our neighborhood. It is deteriorating. Our 23 business has gone down because people don't want 24 to see the people that go to Fuego's. They are 25 not dressed well. They don't act well. They have 35 1 no manners. It's terrible. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by committee? 3 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac. 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: You say you have 6 observed yourself, public urination, you've 7 observed sexual or intimate activity in public, 8 you've observed security guards carrying women 9 from the bar. Have you observed fighting? 10 MRS. POGORELC: There is fighting. I 11 see fighting often, arguing constantly, coming in 12 front of our establishment arguing like crazy. 13 And we know because the bar next door is closed. 14 I see that Carolyn is here, and her bar 15 is closed at those hours. She does not know what 16 goes on in the neighborhood. 17 ALDERMAN KOVAC: How often does this 18 type of activity occur? 19 MRS. POGORELC: Pardon me? 20 ALDERMAN KOVAC: How often have you 21 observed this type of activity? 22 MRS. POGORELC: All the time, 23 constantly. It's not just once. I mean, I could 24 write a book. It's -- and tell you all what's 25 happening. I mean, it's unbelievable. It's 36 1 unbelievable. I don't believe how these people 2 come dressed to dance. I've never seen people 3 going into a dance floor in the attire that they 4 have. 5 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf. 7 MR. SCHRIMPF: Thank you. Ma'am -- 8 MRS. POGORELC: They don't deserve to 9 have their license renewed because it should be an 10 honor to own, to have a bar like that, but that 11 bar is not an honor. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Thank you, 13 Ma'am. Thank you. 14 MRS. POGORELC: It's a disgrace. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Ma'am, if we could - 16 MR. SCHRIMPF: You've indicated that 17 Carolyn's bar is closed, and you've indicated -- 18 MRS. POGORELC: Shaker's next door is 19 normally closed at that hour. 20 MR. SCHRIMPF: All right. And these 21 individuals weren't in your bar, were they? 22 MRS. POGORELC: Well, sometimes -- I'll 23 tell you, he has -- we have lost a lot of 24 customers because our customers don't want to come 25 down -- 37 1 MR. SCHRIMPF: Ma'am -- 2 MRS. POGORELC: -- to look at what's 3 going on in -- 4 MR. SCHRIMPF: A simple yes or no to -- 5 MRS. POGORELC: -- in the neighborhood. 6 MR. SCHRIMPF: A simple yes or no to my 7 question would suffice. They weren't in your bar? 8 MRS. POGORELC: No, they didn't come 9 from my bar at all. 10 MR. SCHRIMPF: How do you know they came 11 from Fuego's? 12 MRS. POGORELC: Because of their attire, 13 the way they are dressed. I told you. 14 MR. SCHRIMPF: Did you actually -- 15 MRS. POGORELC: You can't believe it. 16 MR. SCHRIMPF: Did you see them come 17 from Fuego's? 18 MRS. POGORELC: I see them going to 19 Fuego's and coming out of Fuego's. 20 MR. SCHRIMPF: Okay. That answers my 21 question. Thank you. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Additional questions by 23 committee here? Mr. Atta, questions? Ma'am, one 24 moment please, if you could. 25 MR. ATTA: Again, I'd like to ask you 38 1 also, did you personally file a police report and 2 have the police come in, and based on your 3 testimony, have a written report that was issued, 4 are you aware of that? 5 MRS. POGORELC: Pardon me? 6 MR. ATTA: Are you aware of any police 7 report that was issued based on your complaints? 8 MRS. POGORELC: What complaints? 9 MR. ATTA: Have you complained to the 10 police about any of these incidents that you're -- 11 MRS. POGORELC: Yes, I have. Yes, I 12 have. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And here's what I'm 14 going to ask you to pause. If you kind of look, 15 both of you are way away from your microphone. 16 One's turned away this way, and we have to get 17 this all on record, so Ma'am, if you could step 18 closer to the microphone head. And Mr. Atta, if 19 you could pose your questions to the chair, but 20 using the microphone facing me. 21 MR. ATTA: Sure. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: She will directly answer 23 them. 24 MR. ATTA: My question was, have you 25 filed reports with the police regarding these 39 1 incidents, or these alleged incidents that you say 2 took place? 3 MRS. POGORELC: I have told the police 4 about the incidents. I have also e-mailed our 5 alderman and their office. I have spoken to the 6 people and let them know. Yes, I have. 7 MR. ATTA: And do you have copies of any 8 police reports with you regarding -- 9 MRS. POGORELC: No, I don't, and I 10 didn't get any police reports because this was all 11 verbal. 12 MR. ATTA: You indicate that all the 13 bars are closed except for Fuego's. What time are 14 you talking about? 15 MRS. POGORELC: Well, it varies, it 16 varies. I'm not saying every, every Saturday 17 night or Friday or Thursday night are the other 18 bars closed, but nine times out of ten, they are. 19 They are not there any longer because most of them 20 don't have business at that hour, and neither do 21 we, but I live there and I watch. 22 MR. ATTA: My question to you is, what 23 hour are we talking about that you're saying that 24 all the other bars are closed? 25 MRS. POGORELC: 1:30, 2:00, we're open 40 1 until 2:30 on Saturday and Friday nights. We're 2 allowed to be open until that hour, but they're 3 gone. 4 MR. ATTA: Now, you have a parking lot 5 which is located north of your property, is that 6 correct? 7 MRS. POGORELC: That's correct. 8 MR. ATTA: And Fuego's parking lot is 9 actually across the street, is that correct? 10 MRS. POGORELC: Exactly right. 11 MR. ATTA: So what you're saying is that 12 people are leaving Fuego's parking lot, crossing 13 the street and going into your parking lot so that 14 they could urinate? 15 MRS. POGORELC: Yes -- well no, they are 16 coming down our street. They also park down 17 Florida Street. You know Fuego's parking lot is 18 not large enough for all the people they have. 19 MR. ATTA: There is a lot of street 20 parking there though, isn't there? 21 MRS. POGORELC: That's right, and that's 22 where I see people going down the street turning 23 in our lot to urinate. In fact, I go outside 24 sometimes and catch them. 25 MR. ATTA: And so you know that they all 41 1 come from Fuego's, you're watching? 2 MRS. POGORELC: Well, they are. I know 3 that, yes, because of their attire. They dress 4 different than the rest of us. In fact, Mr. Salem 5 said that he would have such a strict dress code 6 when he -- before he opened up, his very first 7 meeting at Fuego's, and he was dressed very 8 crispy, and he said, "This is the way our people 9 are going to be dressed. No logos." I see 10 nothing but logos on shirts. His people don't 11 dress very nice. 12 MR. ATTA: So you understood when people 13 were dressed nice that they would be dressed 14 conservatively, and you didn't understand that to 15 be that they would not be allowed to come in with 16 any kind of gang attire, and things of that sort, 17 that's not how you understood it. You understood 18 that he would have an establishment where people 19 would be dressed conservatively. 20 MRS. POGORELC: Right. 21 MR. ATTA: I have nothing further. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Thank you, 23 Ma'am. Next witness, please. 24 MR. KUEMMERLEIN: HI, Ken Kuemmerlein. 25 It's a hard name to spell, K-U-E-M-M-E-R-L-E-I-N. 42 1 I live at 2405 East Oklahoma Avenue. I am one of 2 those people that they talk about that see 3 something, shoot off an e-mail, but then don't 4 want to come in and testify. It was a single 5 incident that I shot off an e-mail about. I don't 6 know if you guys have copies of that. I sent it 7 to my alderman and the alderman in the area. And 8 there is a lot of detail in that because it 9 happened the night of, and I mean, I have all the 10 detail of what happened. 11 But essentially, it was one of those, it 12 was like, it was a Thursday. I think it was 13 December 10th. I was at a couple of holiday bar 14 parties, and I was at the 5th Ward Pub driving 15 down to Just Al's, and driving down 2nd Street, 16 this was like maybe -- again, my times might be 17 off when I do this from memory because I don't 18 have the e-mail, 10:30-ish at night, and I'm 19 driving down 2nd Street. And it's kind of got two 20 lanes, you know. And there were cars, both lanes, 21 backed up in front of the bar. You know, people 22 are dropping people off, and stuff like that. But 23 I sat there in the car for like 30 seconds, and no 24 one is moving, and both cars are stopped, kind of 25 honked my horn, and the guy getting out of the car 43 1 in front of me, like, looked at me when I honked 2 the horn. I'm like, please don't stop in the 3 middle of the street at 10:30, and he gave me this 4 look like -- I wasn't, you know, I'm a big guy, 5 not too intimidated by stuff, but it was like a 6 "What do you think you're doing honking at me for 7 stopping in the middle of the street-thing," blew 8 it out of my mind, didn't care, went down to Just 9 Al's, came back again. Again, I'm not sure what 10 time it was exactly, because I had it in my 11 e-mail, coming back down 2nd Street, and now it's 12 like, you know, later at night, probably close to 13 bar time. There is literally a mob of people, 15, 14 20 people walking across the street, 2:00 in the 15 morning on a relatively busy street. Two cars 16 parked again on the southbound lane. And you 17 know, I'm sitting there waiting for people to 18 cross, and I'm in my car. I kind of give one of 19 these shrugs to the people crossing, and I was, 20 once again, given one of those very threatening 21 gestures, like, you know. I didn't want to pursue 22 it, again, because I didn't want to get -- well, I 23 didn't want anything to happen to me for just 24 being in a car parking lot. 25 I can tell you, because I live in Bay 44 1 View, and I spend a lot of time in the area, I 2 will not go anywhere near 2nd Street at bar time 3 with any kind of thought because it's dangerous. 4 I feel danger in driving around there, people 5 walking across the street, cars stopped, it's 6 just, it's one of those things where I can take 7 National. I can take other roads and not have to 8 worry about cars being stopped, people walking 9 across the street. It's not that well lit either. 10 It's just one of the things where, it's like, 11 there are certain roads you avoid at certain times 12 of the night because you're like, nah, I just 13 don't want to go there. If you're going down 14 Water Street in front of Bank One, you're like, I 15 don't want to go there at 2:00 in the morning 16 because there is a mob of people. I'll go 17 Milwaukee, or I'll take one of the other roads. 18 So I just wanted to testify and say that 19 I'm one of those people who just sort of shot off 20 an e-mail. And I appreciate my alderman for 21 passing it on and stuff, because it kind of makes 22 me feel like -- I don't normally get involved in 23 stuff like this. It's nice to have my alderman, 24 like, pass on the e-mails and tell people, so I 25 can sort of, you know, get my complaints heard. 45 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Thank you 2 for coming down here. Questions by committee? 3 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac. 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Where this happened, 6 both on the way to and from, was it right outside 7 Club Fuego? 8 MR. KUEMMERLEIN: Right in front. 9 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And did you actually 10 see the people that were crossing the street come 11 out of Club Fuego? 12 MR. KUEMMERLEIN: Well, some were in the 13 street. Club Fuego is here, mob of people here. 14 So I didn't actually see them physically walk out 15 of Club Fuego. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions by 17 committee? 18 Mr. Salem, your security, are they 19 outside? 20 MR. SALEM: We have three bouncers 21 outside; one in the parking lot and two in front. 22 MR. ATTA: Alderman Bohl, we have 23 actually one security who will testify today, one 24 individual. 25 MR. KUEMMERLEIN: Maybe a traffic cop. 46 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. I'm going to 2 just ask Mr. Salem this question here, what do you 3 authorize your security to do regarding situations 4 such as traffic? I mean, and I'll just, I'll go 5 on the caveat here, I've experienced this around 6 other clubs in this city. I've actually been in 7 four-lane divided boulevards in which multiple 8 lanes were being utilized, and it's not just that 9 they even took the adjacent lane where, you know, 10 you would be parking outside of the parking lane, 11 but I've actually had it where both lanes were 12 being stopped where cars were being backed up as 13 well, too. My response, I just will let you know, 14 my response to the owner was, "Get your butts out 15 there and ensure that anybody who does that does 16 not come in." Right now, you point out to them, 17 you say, "You are not coming in. You are not 18 coming in. Keep moving." You know what, either 19 that, or you actually apply for a loading zone and 20 you have valet, or you ask people to drive in and 21 drop off legitimately on the side of the curb. 22 You know, anybody who is doing that, I'm sorry, my 23 response is, you don't want them in your club, 24 because -- I'll tell you why: I sit on this side 25 of the table, and that type of behavior peeves me 47 1 royally, and the last thing you want to do with 2 any person over here is peeve us. 3 MR. SALEM: No, I don't like it either. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Well, what's your 5 response? And so that this gentleman or others 6 don't have to indicate and have anybody ever 7 testify to us again that this will ever happen? 8 If it is occurring, and your security is here, 9 you're going to turn around to him and you're 10 going to say what at this point here? I'm just 11 asking. You're going to say to him, "I want you 12 guys out there like venom keeping these people 13 off," and saying, "Move, move or you're not in the 14 club. Move or you're not in the club. Move or 15 you're not in the club." And then they can give a 16 dirty look to your club, and then you say, "Thank 17 you, bye-bye. Go elsewhere." 18 MR. SALEM: I assure you, we do that 19 every night. We don't have people -- they come 20 and they pick up their friends, or -- 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Why would an individual 22 testify to their experience, both ways? 23 MR. SALEM: I can't answer that for you. 24 MR. ATTA: Actually, I mean, let me just 25 make a comment. 48 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'll just -- let me make 2 a comment here. Why would an individual who 3 doesn't even reside in the area, who just had a 4 really bad experience, not only once but twice, 5 come out of his way, and I'm guessing here that 6 they spent -- you're living in Bay View here, 7 you're a couple miles away from this scene? 8 MR. KUEMMERLEIN: Mm mm. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I mean, had a bad enough 10 experience to the point where he'd come out of his 11 way with no other vested interest in that other 12 than to say that. My belief is from his 13 testimony, just from that, is you guys are running 14 a bad ship outside. I mean, that you're not 15 doing, dealing with things the way that you ought 16 to. You can tell me, "Boy, this was a night that 17 we fell asleep." And I'll tell you, "You know 18 what a good operator does? You never fall asleep. 19 You never fall asleep." Because you know what, my 20 belief is that if you can get one instance like 21 this, this is probably a regular occurrence. 22 That's just my belief, and if it's not, then it 23 should have never happened once let alone twice 24 with the same individual. 25 MR. ATTA: I'm not sure it happened 49 1 twice. I mean, from what I saw there was one 2 incident that was outlined in his -- 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm not even taking his 4 e-mail because that in itself hasn't been made 5 part of the record. 6 MR. ATTA: I understand. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: His testimony that was 8 present here is what will stand. But that being 9 said, I mean, I just -- that's why I wanted to 10 know, how many individuals you have out there, 11 what they are supposedly doing. 12 MR. SALEM: 14 guys, and they clear the 13 street. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: 14? Because I just 15 heard three. 16 MR. SALEM: No, at the end of the night, 17 we have 14 bouncers outside taking everybody, 18 pushing everybody to clear the street. But 19 outside during the, while we're open, from 9:00 to 20 1:30, we have three guys outside: One in the 21 parking lot; two out in front. 22 MR. ATTA: I think I really need to, 23 though, emphasize something. When you have any 24 large gathering and it is closing time, or if 25 you're in a high school and it's the end of the 50 1 game, or if you're at the State Fair Park and 2 people are leaving, or if you're at any 3 neighborhood carnival and it's closing time and 4 people leave, it's absolutely impossible to 5 control everyone and tell them, "Look we want you 6 to go in the crosswalks, to cross the streets," 7 and so forth. I mean, Marquette University had to 8 put up fencing in the middle of street so that 9 they could make sure that the kids are not 10 crossing the street at, you know, any location. 11 I think that my client is trying their 12 best. These are incidents that apparently are 13 happening in -- and my understanding, and even 14 according to what was indicted, these are more of 15 things that are probably happening when it's 16 closing time when everyone is leaving. And again, 17 those are not times when there is a lot of traffic 18 that's going on. 19 And I'm a little bit, you know, 20 surprised that, you know, because of one incident 21 as you're crossing, you know, you're going down a 22 street, and because of one incident where you saw 23 a crowd of people, "I'm going to avoid that area." 24 I mean, if I were going to do that, I wouldn't be 25 in any area of the city because there are programs 51 1 that are going on all the time, whether basketball 2 games, sporting events, you know, other kinds of 3 things. 4 I mean, again, the owners of these 5 establishments can do everything that they can, 6 they have the bouncers outside, they are trying to 7 direct people to leave right away, go to your 8 cars, you know, we want to close things down, but 9 crowd control is not always easy, especially at 10 closing time. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Additional questions for 12 this witness? By the way, I don't know, what's 13 the size of the club in terms of capacity? 14 MR. SALEM: 320 people. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. I've -- I don't 16 know why sometimes, if you're unaware, if you have 17 a larger club, I know you indicated that you start 18 turning your lights out. You know what you do? 19 You start moving sections of the club out, start 20 moving them out earlier. You know what, rather 21 than have the big mad rush. I don't know that you 22 do this, but I've talked with others, instead of 23 turning off the lights at 2:00 or 2:30, depending 24 on what night it is, everybody out, now all of a 25 sudden you've got a mad rush of 300-some people, 52 1 start turning out the lights a little bit sooner. 2 You turn the music down earlier. You start taking 3 out segments, and you say, "Folks in this area, 4 we're going to go." And then you allow some 5 people to start -- because you know there is going 6 to be some relative milling. This way, you don't 7 have 300 people all being pushed out at once. You 8 start moving segments. 9 So you asked me how to do things, here 10 is what I'd tell you as the operator of a club: 11 The smart thing for any smart club operator is to 12 do things necessary to try to at least mitigate 13 the problems to keep them to a minimum. And when 14 you do things smart, you at least, at the very 15 least, hope to minimize the number of individuals 16 who will come to testify. Will I tell you that 17 you can do actually anything and everything -- but 18 if your attorney is going to come here and tell me 19 that he can't do nothing -- 20 MR. ATTA: I didn't say -- 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, you know what, 22 then apparently, then apparently, Mr. Atta, I will 23 say, unfortunately, maybe you ought to tune into 24 these committee hearings a little bit longer, 25 drive around these types of places, and have your 53 1 client -- if that's your approach in terms of 2 responding to me and telling me this is -- nothing 3 can be done -- 4 MR. ATTA: No -- 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No, no, no, no. I 6 speak. I am speaking. I will call on you when 7 I'm done. Okay, I will give you an opportunity to 8 respond. I will, I promise you that. But when 9 I'm speaking here, I'm going to please ask you to 10 allow me to complete my sentence without 11 interrupting me. Okay? 12 MR. ATTA: Understood. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. I don't want 14 to put words in your mouth, but what I heard from 15 you was you said, "This can't be dealt with," you 16 know, "This is going to happen, it happens 17 everywhere. It happens in this community, it 18 happens there, so much, hey, we got 14 people." 19 What I'm telling you is that there are other 20 avenues. If you want to speak on behalf of your 21 client and say that that's the way he responds, 22 maybe he wants to speak on his own. I don't want 23 to put -- I don't want to require you to do one 24 thing or another. But the fact is, if you're 25 going to be his mouthpiece as an attorney, then 54 1 what you are stating is what's going to be the 2 record for him because he's not saying anything 3 else, and you're representing him, he's paying you 4 to do that, or you have some type of arrangement. 5 So literally, what I heard from you is, 6 "Hey, there isn't a whole lot we can do. There is 7 a big crowd. Hey, this happens everywhere." I'm 8 just telling you, there are things that can be 9 done, I don't know if he's doing them. But the 10 fact is that you kind of went like this, "hmm," to 11 this gentleman's testimony. That's the way I took 12 it. That's what I heard from you. Now I will 13 allow you to respond from that, but I'm just 14 telling you if -- there are other alternatives to 15 what you stated in your representation of this 16 gentleman. And if he is not employing them, I 17 would just suggest that he just start looking at 18 other clubs that take other approaches to try to 19 reduce and mitigate those problems based on what 20 he indicated from his one instance, okay, I'll 21 qualify that. 22 Now you may speak, but please, in the 23 future, there is no -- you getting louder and 24 louder with me, trying to outtalk me, doesn't 25 work. Nor does it with any other members of this 55 1 committee. Please, Mr. Atta. 2 MR. ATTA: My comment was that my -- 3 what I had said was mischaracterized. And what I 4 would have requested in a court was that the 5 transcriptionist would go back and read the 6 transcript of what I actually said. I did not say 7 that, that there was nothing that could be done. 8 I did not say that this is just something that we 9 should ignore, it just happens all over the place. 10 My comment was, it is a difficult situation when 11 you have large crowds in any kind of venue, 12 whether it's a sporting event, a club, or whatever 13 else. And my client indicated that he has a 14 number of bouncers that are outside trying to 15 guide people to go to the parking lot, to leave as 16 quickly as possible. 17 Crowd control, I indicated, is always 18 difficult, but it is something that they are 19 working on. I never tried to make an excuse. 20 What I was saying was usually this occurs at 21 closing time when there is usually not a lot of 22 people around. 23 The comment that I was taken aback by 24 Mr. Kuemmerlein was his -- based on one incident 25 in one street, he was willing to take the stance 56 1 that, "I'm never going to go in this area to see 2 these kind of people there." And I find that 3 absolutely ludicrous. 4 MR. KUEMMERLEIN: I didn't say anything 5 about not seeing those people. 6 MR. ATTA: I find it absolutely 7 ludicrous that someone says, would say, "I'm going 8 to totally avoid 2nd Street because of this one 9 incident." I just found that to be unreasonable. 10 That was my comment. It wasn't to try to minimize 11 the effect that this incident had, this one 12 incident had on him, it was just to make an 13 observation. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. I appreciate 15 that. Actually, I'll -- but since you're going to 16 offer, I'll tell you this much: My experience, it 17 was with one club in my district, it was called 18 All Star Sports on Appleton Avenue and Silver 19 Spring. And based on what I saw, the one occasion 20 when I went there, I thought to myself, "I would 21 go out of my way to avoid driving in front of that 22 place." How's that? 23 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Here I am as an elected 25 official who has to deal with behavior, and 57 1 everything else, and try to represent that, and 2 try to deal with the police, rather than one 3 average citizen. I've seen tougher behavior, I've 4 been in the midst of it. And I'll tell you that 5 the incident where I saw triple parking, and the 6 same thing, somebody honking, somebody getting out 7 of the car and doing the signs, like basically, 8 "What do you want to do? Do you want me to, 9 basically, hurt you if you want to do this?" Kind 10 of doing this behavior. Yes, you know what, I 11 would deliberately go out of my way to avoid that, 12 and that's exactly what I saw in my district. And 13 I was on the horn with them immediately because of 14 that. And my belief was, if somebody -- and they 15 had security standing out there. Granted, I'm not 16 going to say that's your place, but they had 17 security out there, and security was allowing it. 18 And to me, as a local alderman, that was 19 inexcusable, let alone have somebody double park, 20 but to triple park. And to the point where it was 21 going on, in that instance, where cars are five, 22 six, seven deep. 23 And what I'm just saying is, to me, that 24 is symptomatic, where that is allowed to happen. 25 If somebody's not out there immediately going, 58 1 "Move, move, move. We are on the cops on you, you 2 are not coming in. I'm looking at you, you are 3 not coming in." Because you know what, you are 4 not going to win with security unless immediately, 5 "Move, or you're not coming in." I'm going to 6 assure you, folks will move. Anybody that -- 7 again, you will get an opportunity if you could 8 raise your hand, and I'll go like this. 9 MR. ATTA: Fine. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If they are not doing 11 that immediately, there is a problem. And the 12 fact they he saw that, at least in the description 13 of what he provided here, that is not adequate. 14 It just isn't adequate, even on one instance. 15 Deal with your issues. Make sure that doesn't 16 happen. I'll let you first, Mr. Atta. 17 MR. ATTA: No, my only comment was, 18 telling people, "You're not going to come in," I 19 absolutely agree with that. But I don't think 20 that the problem is when they are coming in, I 21 think the problems is when they are leaving. And 22 that is why I made the comment it's a little bit 23 more difficult. But I have nothing -- I do agree 24 with some of your other comments. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And I will acknowledge 59 1 that you have bigger crowds at once, that's true. 2 Alderman. 3 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Yeah, I just want to 4 piggyback on some of your comments, Mr. Chair. 5 I mean, we still have to hear from, I 6 think you have security here, and I'm very curious 7 to hear how your security does handle that 8 situation, but just -- and we are also going to 9 get to decide what to with this license on the 10 merits of the testimony, and how it's handled. 11 Just, I mean, first of all, it happened 12 -- in one night, it happened twice, coming and 13 going. And I just, and this is just my advice, it 14 isn't really a question, but it doesn't help you 15 with this committee to try to disparage witnesses. 16 Now, you can criticize or refute what the facts of 17 their testimony, that does help your client. But 18 to say that he's ludicrous, to come up to 19 personally attacks on the other woman, ask the 20 other guy for his address so probably next year, 21 if he's got anything on his address, you're going 22 to bring that up, that's just not helpful. That 23 doesn't -- and I don't think it helps your client. 24 That's the tragedy, we are going to decide this on 25 other things, but trying to make these witnesses 60 1 who take time out of their busy schedule, it's not 2 their livelihood -- well, in some cases it is, but 3 it's not their livelihood that's at stake, it's 4 their neighborhood that's at stake. They're 5 taking time out of their day. It doesn't look 6 good when you try to disparage what their -- 7 disparage them. I think you should treat them 8 with respect, and more importantly, treat the 9 merits of their complaints with respect. Because 10 clearly, whatever your client is doing, is not 11 perfect. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Alderman. 13 Were the any other questions for this witness? 14 Mr. Atta, did you have any additional questions? 15 MR. ATTA: No. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, sir. Were 17 there any other witnesses who are here in 18 opposition to the license? Okay. We'll hear from 19 individuals here who are in support of the license 20 here. Whatever pecking order individuals want to 21 show up in, please. 22 Now if you tell me you're security and 23 you knocked on my window, I'd move my car real 24 fast. I'm just going to tell you that for the 25 record. 61 1 MR. WILLIS: Thank you. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Your name and address, 3 please. 4 MR. WILLIS: George Willis. I live at 5 8262 West Daphne. And I am his security at 6 Fuego's, and I do also other clubs, also. And 7 I've been doing it for at least 15 years. And the 8 problems that I'm hearing, a lot of it is untrue. 9 I ain't got nothing against these people right 10 here, but a lot of it is untrue. We do also make 11 a sweep at closing time. We do have a crowd of 12 people coming out all at once, and that's at every 13 club I do. We have a crowd of people who come out 14 at clubs all at once. And we do also make a 15 sweep, make sure everybody gets to their cars and 16 go to their cars and leave safely. 17 And you know, bouncers, I keep hearing 18 "bouncers," I don't consider myself as a bouncer; 19 I consider myself as a security guard. I don't 20 like the bouncing word because I don't bounce 21 nobody, and I have been doing it for a long time. 22 And, you know, the bottles and stuff, we 23 do not allow drinks coming out of the club at all. 24 We do not allow that. Now, we do have patrons 25 cross the street, okay, but we are out there 62 1 making sure they get to their cars and go home. 2 There is not nobody there after 2:30, the streets 3 are cleared before that, cleared, are gone. We 4 don't have nobody else out there. We don't have 5 no problems like that, and I've been doing a lot 6 of clubs. And I've had some bad clubs also, and 7 this is not one of them. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you for your 9 testimony. When you indicate that the patrons are 10 out of the area by 2:30, that's based on a 2:00 11 closing, or what? 12 MR. WILLIS: Well, once we -- actually, 13 they're gone before then because we let -- we turn 14 the lights up 1:30, and we sweep the club getting 15 everybody out of the club, because we want 16 everybody out of the club before 2:00. And once 17 we get everybody out, then we have the outside 18 guys, and we make a sweep. We do walk past her 19 place, and we sweep all past her place. We walk, 20 not just in front of the club, we walk a block 21 down making sure everybody is in their car and 22 gone. We go a block down, we go a block back 23 going south, and we go a block going up west. We 24 clear everybody out, making sure everybody is gone 25 to their cars and gone home. 63 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You are part of an 2 outside security that Mr. Salem hires, is that 3 correct? 4 MR. WILLIS: Yes, he hires us to come 5 in, and, you know, I bring security in, and, like 6 I said, do other spots there. I do, we go around 7 to other clubs. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Does your company do 9 security for the inside as well as the outside, or 10 mostly the outside? 11 MR. WILLIS: We do the whole thing; 12 inside and outside. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Now, are you hired to 14 operate there all days that he is open? 15 MR. WILLIS: We are there from when he 16 is open to close. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Every day of operation, 18 of which he is operating? 19 MR. WILLIS: Yeah, Thursday and Saturday 20 are the main two days, and we're there from open 21 to close. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The -- what would be 23 your security firm's policy on a situation like 24 the previous gentleman who provided the testimony 25 of cars double or triple parking, or double 64 1 parking? 2 MR. WILLIS: We don't have them double 3 parked. We do have patrons come and stop and let 4 somebody out their car. We do have that, that 5 happens at all the clubs, and they let their 6 patrons out, get out their car. We flag them and 7 tell them, "Move on. You can't stop there." We 8 do flag them and tell them, "Move on. You can't 9 stop there." And a lot of times, they do. And 10 when they don't, we don't allow them to stop 11 there, because that tees me off, too. I don't 12 like that also. Like I said, I've been doing this 13 for years. So a lot of this stuff, I don't 14 tolerate. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And the key isn't 16 somebody just like real quick popping out, the key 17 is the times where you find the stragglers there. 18 And I've seen it in the circumstance when I was 19 talking about the other place, it was stragglers, 20 and there was people that are sort of milling and 21 running in and still wanting to chat with Joe and 22 Suzy while they're in the car, or the music is 23 still on and they want to hear the rest of the 24 song and they don't care that everybody else is 25 behind them. I'm not saying that's what's 65 1 happening here, but -- 2 MR. WILLIS: We'll walk out there and 3 tell them to move on. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, but you're saying 5 that's your active policy to -- 6 MR. WILLIS: Yeah. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Which is good to 8 hear from you. All right. Questions by committee 9 members of this witness here? 10 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Mr. Chair. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Hamilton. 12 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Can you explain for 13 the committee where the parking lot is, and in 14 respect to the club and, you know, the direction 15 that people are moving in? Because I think, you 16 know, we keep talking about crowds moving across 17 the street and down the street and typically where 18 people park. 19 MR. WILLIS: The parking lot is not 20 right in front of Fuego's, it's across the street, 21 like a house down from Fuego's. So they do cross, 22 they have to cross the street to get to the 23 parking lot, so that's what they do. They all 24 cross the street, and as we pushing them, we got 25 some crossing the street, and some do park amongst 66 1 the street, as we push them on down the street, 2 and they walking past their place, and all the 3 crowd, the whole crowd is going that one way, and 4 we push them straight to their cars. The parking 5 lot is right across the street, a block, probably 6 about a house from Fuego's. 7 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf. 9 MR. SCHRIMPF: Thank you. You said in 10 front of "their place," you -- which other place 11 are you talking about? 12 MR. WILLIS: Well, I guess it's Tony's. 13 MR. SCHRIMPF: Tony's bar? 14 MR. WILLIS: Yeah. 15 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's all I have, Mr. 16 Chair. 17 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Mr. Chairman. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Witkowiak. 19 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Could I ask this 20 witness a question, please? 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Please. 22 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: George, at closing 23 time, have you ever seen people leaving the bar 24 that kind of hang out like in the middle of the 25 street? Like while they're crossing the street, 67 1 they just kind of hang out and block traffic, have 2 you seen -- 3 MR. WILLIS: No, we don't allow that. 4 We don't allow it. We out there with -- like I 5 said, we make a sweep. Once we have security 6 outside, we make sure everybody go to their cars. 7 We don't allow that at all. 8 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: I'm just curious, 9 how does one very credible witness come and say 10 that there is people coagulating in the middle of 11 street -- 12 MR. WILLIS: No, they're not 13 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: -- blocking traffic 14 and -- 15 MR. WILLIS: They're not. 16 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: -- and you're 17 there, and you're telling me it doesn't happen? 18 MR. WILLIS: I'm going to explain it. 19 They're not, they're not hanging in the street, 20 they're walking across the street into the parking 21 lot. And that's what the problem is. When the 22 club close, they're walking across the street. 23 You got a lot of people going across the street to 24 the parking lot, so that's what you get. They're 25 not hanging in the street. They're walking across 68 1 the street, because we're pushing them. We're 2 telling them to move on. 3 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: But you're saying 4 -- so it's possible they block some traffic when 5 they cross the street, but you're saying, but 6 they're not, like, just stopping in the middle of 7 the street? 8 MR. WILLIS: Right, they're not blocking 9 the street, they're walking across the street. 10 Yeah, traffic comes as they are walking across the 11 street, so people do stop as they're walking 12 across the street. 13 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: I mean, is it 14 possible something like this happened on a night 15 that you weren't there? 16 MR. WILLIS: No, I'm usually there. 17 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Well, if you do 18 several clubs, how can you be in all those places 19 at one time? 20 MR. WILLIS: Well, I got a car. I can 21 drive to different places. 22 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. All right, 23 thank you. 24 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf. 69 1 MR. SCHRIMPF: Do they cross in the 2 middle of the street, or at the crosswalk? 3 MR. WILLIS: No, they don't go across 4 the crosswalk. You know, the club, like I said, 5 the house, I mean, the parking lot is like a 6 block, not even a block down. There's like a 7 house, a building right across the street. It's 8 like a house right there, not a house, I mean, the 9 building, it's like, probably, I'd say about not 10 even 20 feet from Fuego's, and they walk across 11 the street over there, right across the street 12 from Tony's. Tony's is right there, right across 13 the street, the parking lot is right there. 14 MR. SCHRIMPF: So I'm understanding that 15 they are not crossing in the crosswalk? 16 MR. WILLIS: No, they're not. 17 MR. SCHRIMPF: Okay. And if there is 18 traffic that is on -- is this South 2nd Street? 19 MR. WILLIS: Yes. 20 MR. SCHRIMPF: If there is traffic on 21 South 2nd Street, then that traffic has to come to 22 a stop to accommodate the patrons, the 300 or so 23 patrons leaving at closing time, is that right? 24 MR. WILLIS: Well, it don't be that. 25 The parking lot is not that big, so you're not 70 1 going to have 300 going across the street because 2 a lot of the patrons is on, also on the street 3 also. You probably have like 20 cars that's in 4 the parking lot, there's that many people probably 5 walking across the street. 6 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's all I have, Mr. 7 Chairman. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Additional questions by 9 committee? 10 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac. 12 ALDERMAN KOVAC: You're the manager of 13 all the security? 14 MR. WILLIS: Yes. 15 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And so you're a private 16 company that subcontracts with him? 17 MR. WILLIS: Well, what I do is, I get 18 called, and then a lot of people want security, 19 right, so I've been doing this for like 15, 20 20 years, and I provide these guys security. That's 21 -- when a lot of times, I've been doing it for so 22 long, a lot of people know me and they feel safe, 23 you know, and I also -- 24 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So do you have your own 25 security company? 71 1 MR. WILLIS: Right. 2 ALDERMAN KOVAC: You bring everybody 3 with you? 4 MR. WILLIS: I bring people with me to 5 the clubs that they ask. 6 ALDERMAN KOVAC: How many people, on 7 Thursday and Saturday when they're busy, how many 8 people do you have? 9 MR. WILLIS: We have 14. 10 ALDERMAN KOVAC: At one time? 11 MR. WILLIS: At Fuego's, yes, because we 12 have two levels, so we need that many for upstairs 13 and down. 14 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Internal and external, 15 but then during closing, how many people are out 16 on the street when the mass crowd are there? 17 MR. WILLIS: When we are letting out? 18 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Yes. 19 MR. WILLIS: Well, what we do is, first, 20 we let the upstairs out first. We don't let them 21 all out at once. The upstairs, we turn the lights 22 on, the upstairs goes out first, and as the 23 upstairs is coming out, and then we let the 24 downstairs out afterwards. 25 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And you say, "you're 72 1 there usually --" 2 MR. WILLIS: Yes. 3 ALDERMAN KOVAC: -- what does that mean 4 in terms of frequency that you're there? You say 5 you're there from open to close usually. 6 MR. WILLIS: Yes, I'm there from open to 7 close. 8 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Is that every Thursday 9 and Saturday, every day? 10 MR. WILLIS: Every -- I'm there every 11 Thursday, and every Saturday, I'm there sometimes 12 at Fuego's sometimes, and other places sometimes. 13 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Because I'm sure you 14 heard, I mean, we had credible testimony about 15 this incident the one night, which I'm assuming, 16 based on your testimony, it was not one of the 17 nights you were there because you're saying that 18 didn't happen, and it's pretty clear it did. 19 MR. WILLIS: Right. 20 ALDERMAN KOVAC: The guy doesn't have an 21 axe to grind, he was just driving by. 22 MR. WILLIS: But like I said, these guys 23 been with me for 15 years, and -- 24 ALDERMAN KOVAC: But I want to just 25 quickly run a couple other things by you, and you 73 1 say you haven't seen this and the steps you've 2 taken, and we got testimony from neighbors that 3 your security guys were carrying women to their 4 cars? 5 MR. WILLIS: No, we do not do that. 6 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Not to your knowledge. 7 And then what about the public urination or the 8 sexual activity? 9 MR. WILLIS: We out there sweeping, so 10 that ain't going to happen. We make sure 11 everybody goes straight to their cars, that don't 12 even happen. 13 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And do you patrol the 14 areas, you don't -- I mean, how much of the area? 15 You can't be everywhere at once. 16 MR. WILLIS: No, we go a block down 17 going north, we go a block down going south, and 18 we go a block down going west. 19 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And so have you ever 20 seen that and then had your people step in to 21 prevent that, or you're saying it never happens at 22 all? 23 MR. WILLIS: I haven't seen it, and the 24 security hasn't seen it. I haven't seen it -- 25 ALDERMAN KOVAC: You never once seen 74 1 anyone urinate, or -- 2 MR. WILLIS: We don't allow them to 3 stop. When we sweep, we don't allow nobody to 4 stop. They want to stop and talk, we move them 5 out. We don't even allow them to stop and talk, 6 we push them on, "Go home. It's time to go home." 7 ALDERMAN KOVAC: All right. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Any other questions? 9 Mr. Atta, questions? 10 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Mr. Chair. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Hamilton. 12 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Just to clarify, 13 have you ever witnessed any fights? And I'm not 14 just talking about arguments but a fight. 15 MR. WILLIS: Well, you have little 16 altercations, but it gets taken care of right 17 away. I'm not going to sit here and say we don't 18 have, you know, fights. We don't have a whole 19 bunch of fights. You know, at all clubs, you have 20 altercations. We break it up right away, and we 21 get them on, they move on. And that's all the 22 places we have, it ain't no big drama fights 23 nothing, you know, like that. You know, you have 24 a boyfriend and girlfriend incident, and that's at 25 a lot of places you're having that. 75 1 MR. MACGILLIS: Pardon me, Mr. Chair. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sergeant. 3 MR. MACGILLIS: Sir, I missed the name 4 of your security company. 5 MR. WILLIS: It's not a company. We do 6 -- I have, what I've been doing for 15 years, I 7 have a group, there's a group of us, a group of 8 guys, that we run, we do like security for clubs 9 in the neighborhood. 10 MR. MACGILLIS: You're not an LLC, or 11 anything? 12 MR. WILLIS: No, they're just a group of 13 us. We been doing it for 15 years. The guys have 14 been with me for 15 years, and I -- they usually 15 call me and ask me could I get them security, and 16 I usually provide them security. 17 MR. MACGILLIS: Thank you. 18 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Are you licensed in any 19 way? 20 MR. WILLIS: No, I'm not. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Atta. 22 MR. ATTA: I want to ask you about the 23 issue of a dress code. What do you enforce at 24 Fuego's? 25 MR. WILLIS: We don't allow T-shirts and 76 1 gym shoes. You know, our young people is going to 2 dress, you know, with no clothes on. We're going 3 to have that, you know, but they are dressed. You 4 know, we don't -- they don't dress like, you know, 5 like us. You know, I'm an older cat too, but, you 6 know, they don't dress like us anymore. You're 7 going to have the younger generation dress, you 8 know, with little clothes, and that's what they 9 do. But we don't allow no tennis shoes, we don't 10 allow no gang wear, we don't allow none of that. 11 MR. ATTA: Have you had any kind of gang 12 problems at the club? 13 MR. WILLIS: No, we don't allow it. 14 MR. ATTA: I have nothing further. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you for your 16 testimony, sir. Next witness. Good evening. 17 MS. RUBITSKY: Hi, my name is Carol 18 Rubitsky. I live at 4828 West Washington 19 Boulevard in Milwaukee. And for the past ten 20 years, next month, I will have owned Carolyn's 21 Jazz Club at 401 South 2nd Street for ten years. 22 And with all respect to Anna, and she and I have 23 talked about it many times, that at one time it 24 was a really wonderful neighborhood. It wasn't a 25 wonderful neighborhood when I moved in there ten 77 1 years ago. It's a neighborhood known for male 2 prostitution. We have a fair amount of 3 bankruptcy, vagrants wondering about, vandalism, a 4 lot of break-ins. And until Club Fuego moved in, 5 it was a real sleepy neighborhood, and the very 6 perception of desertion at night hampered my 7 business to a great degree. Not to mention 8 break-ins in the parking lot hampered my business 9 to a great degree. I saw them move in with a 10 little trepidation because of the size of the club 11 and because of parking issues. And actually, I 12 was really pleasantly surprised. We ironed out 13 all the parking issues. We cooperate fully with 14 our two lots. We both have parking lot 15 attendants. 16 But what I want to say is, when you have 17 a business district and it is dead and deserted, 18 it is subject to so many hazards, when you're 19 there and when you are not there. And when there 20 is life in the area, it's a huge deterrent to all 21 that, it just protects us all. 22 George incidentally, has been well known 23 both on the north and south side for a lot of 24 years, and he's got a great reputation. And my 25 husband and I and all the people that work and 78 1 play at the club are really impressed with these 2 guys as far as how professional they are, how 3 present they are. They aren't bouncers. I really 4 detest that term. I detest the concept of that 5 term. They aren't bouncers; they're security. We 6 have no more petty crime incidents during the 7 evenings we're open. We watch them move their 8 crowd out at night, and we are impressed with the 9 way they do it. I know they work always as 10 efficient at it as they are there. 11 You guys have me really scared. First 12 of all, I want to say, I hope you guys approved my 13 license last week. I meant to ask you before I 14 started talking. But what I want to say about 15 this is, we had a neighborhood meeting with 16 Alderman Witkowiak about a year ago, and since 17 then, I have noticed changes in their operations 18 as far as how they move that crowd, how they 19 control that crowd. And they're a bunch of young 20 people, and I know that's not an excuse for a lot 21 of bad behavior and a lot of inconsiderate 22 behavior, but it accounts for the loud shouting 23 and talking and celebration on the way out of the 24 club, they had a good time, they're continuing to 25 have a good time. That doesn't bother us, and I 79 1 have a really conservative place. I have a place 2 where if I have 50 people, that's a great night, 3 but then it's a jazz club. 4 But don't discount what I say, because 5 I'm a jazz club that was listed in National 6 Geographic. My base player on Saturday night 7 played with Duke Ellington, and he wears a suit 8 every night. These kids don't wear suits, some of 9 them do, very few, because that's not the fashion 10 of their culture and their age. But I see guys 11 get out of their car in the parking lot, take off 12 the T-shirt, put on a dress shirt, change their 13 shoes. And that's respect that I don't see a lot 14 of places, and I'm fairly impressed with that. 15 The other thing is, and I get really 16 emotional about this, and in neighborhood 17 discussions I've too often heard about "those 18 people." There are no people in my business or my 19 life that I refer to as "those people." Probably 20 my clientele are "those people" too, but I never 21 think of them that way. 22 We live in a really diverse world. Now, 23 I understand that if you don't really live in the 24 diversity of that world, people can shock you or 25 disturb you or set you back a little bit, and you 80 1 feel a little bit scared. If I dropped my nephew 2 off on 2nd and Lapham after work, and I go back 3 around 6th Street to get on the 6th Street bridge, 4 there are a bunch of clubs that empty out at 5 closing time, and those people are walking across 6 the street, and I think, "Oh, should I really be 7 driving on this street by myself?" But you look 8 in those kids' eyes, they're just there, they're 9 just having a good time, they're just doing what 10 they do. 11 And so, we don't feel they're a problem 12 to us; we feel like they're an asset to us. And 13 I'm sorry the neighborhood is louder and that 14 there is more traffic for the people that do live 15 there, but outside of Anna, most of us have been 16 there longer than a lot of the people there. They 17 live there, that was a business district when they 18 moved in, and it's a business district now. And 19 why should they only be unhappy when we're 20 failing? 21 Most of us would do anything to try to 22 cooperate, but we also feel that we have a right 23 to our businesses and in the rights that we earn 24 with those businesses. I enjoy the fashion show 25 incidentally, it's not my culture, not my style, 81 1 but I enjoy all that young stuff, it's fun to look 2 at. 3 And the comment that has been made here, 4 and to me before, that I'm not there, that I'm 5 closed and gone. I have a really personal 6 relationship with my club, with my musicians and 7 with my clientele. They all have my cell phone 8 number, okay. If any of them had any complaints 9 or objections to this club, I'd hear it. My 10 business hasn't decreased or been hurt by it; it's 11 been augmented by it. We share some clientele, 12 believe it or not. Saleh has asked me about that, 13 and yes, we do, we share a segment of that 14 clientele from time to time. And I think it's 15 great that they are at least even curious about 16 old-school music, I really am. 17 All I can say is that I hope you give 18 Sal a chance over there in that neighborhood. 19 Yeah, it's different, everything is different than 20 it used to be. 21 I restore houses. I -- Milwaukee has 22 the most beautiful architecture in the world. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Ms. Rubitsky, I think -- 24 MS. RUBITSKY: Everything is changing. 25 That's my point. 82 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I appreciate a lot of 2 what you've said, and I've given you some latitude 3 and that's because I appreciate your commentary 4 about being inclusive and not trying to identify 5 and segment out one segment. So I gave you some 6 additional leeway in that, and I appreciate the 7 commentary. 8 MS. RUBITSKY: Incidentally, I was 9 working the night of December 10th, and didn't 10 notice anything untoward. And I'm sorry something 11 happened that that gentleman perceived as 12 threatening or upsetting to him. And I am there 13 at night, and I might close at 1:30 when the music 14 stops, but I'm still there until 2:00, 2:30 to 15 allow the musicians to get offloaded. And we are 16 getting into our truck as the people from Fuego's 17 that are parked in our lot are leaving. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Questions by 19 committee members? 20 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Was December 10th the 21 night that the gentleman from Bay View was driving 22 back and forth? 23 MS. RUBITSKY: I believe that it was. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yes. 25 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Did you observe that 83 1 there were some people in the street that you 2 didn't think was out of hand, or do you have any 3 idea what he was referring to? 4 MS. RUBITSKY: Nothing more than -- I 5 guess I'm a little hardened. I live on the north 6 side where streets are narrow and people stop in 7 the middle of the street all the time, and you 8 just wait for them. I can understand that maybe 9 he felt a little uptight about that. I didn't 10 notice there was any big mob of people, you know, 11 that was causing any contention. That's what I 12 would look for, that's what my parking lot 13 attendant would look for. 14 ALDERMAN KOVAC: It was December 17th 15 that he, what he was writing about. 16 MS. RUBITSKY: December 17th? 17 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Yeah. 18 MS. RUBITSKY: That would be a Thursday 19 also. 20 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Yeah. Were you there 21 both Thursdays? 22 MS. RUBITSKY: I'm there every Thursday. 23 I'm there Thursday, most Fridays and every 24 Saturday. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Additional follow-up? 84 1 Ms. Rubitsky, you're -- I mean, you're operating 2 your club, I'm going to guess that you're not 3 standing at the window or outside continuously as 4 well, too? 5 MS. RUBITSKY: We have a huge picture 6 window in the front of the club. I generally 7 stand in front by the front door by that window to 8 greet customers and say good-bye to them coming 9 and going, making sure everyone is seated where 10 they want to sit. Everyone else is playing next 11 to me, etcetera. I may leave for a minute to go 12 around the tables, although on a Thursday night 13 there really isn't any table traffic. And I will 14 go to the back door to check with Michael to see 15 how the parking lot is doing. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Otherwise, you're 17 indicating that you have a fair amount of 18 visibility out front? 19 MS. RUBITSKY: Yes. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Thank you. Which 21 is great to hear. My only response with regard to 22 the other gentleman is, at any one given point, 23 you can find a couple cars that block, where 24 there's traffic, it can be over and done with in a 25 minute. It doesn't mean that there's, you know, 85 1 if there is a little bit of traffic coming, you 2 could land four or five deep, have somebody take 3 30 seconds, land that deep, give you a dirty look 4 and get out of their car and then have that move 5 on and not be the case the rest of the night. It 6 could have been sheer bad luck, it could have been 7 isolated. 8 MS. RUBITSKY: I don't know. I can't 9 testify to that. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Right. You just -- 11 you're testifying you did not see it at all, which 12 is fine. 13 MS. RUBITSKY: I'm saying there was no 14 great disturbance. No. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Thank you. Other 16 questions by committee? Mr. Atta, do you have any 17 follow-ups? 18 MR. ATTA: Just real quickly, you said 19 that you talked about an individual named Michael. 20 Who is Michael? 21 MS. RUBITSKY: Michael is my parking lot 22 attendant. 23 MR. ATTA: Okay. And can you describe 24 your parking lot as compared to Fuego's, how do 25 they relate to one another? 86 1 MS. RUBITSKY: There is -- I'm on the 2 corner of 2nd and Florida. My parking lot is just 3 to the south of my building, and their parking lot 4 is just across from that. 5 MR. ATTA: They are basically -- 6 MS. RUBITSKY: So they are adjacent. 7 MR. ATTA: Okay. 8 MS. RUBITSKY: Okay. Their parking lot 9 belongs to Mr. Soref, and he uses it during the 10 day. My parking lot belongs to my landlord. I 11 lease it with the restaurants in my building, use 12 it during the day. We don't have the same hours 13 of intense traffic at our places, so it works well 14 for us. And we can cooperate to put as much 15 parking in that lot as we can, and we do. 16 MR. ATTA: So even at times when, let's 17 say it's later on, you would allow Fuego customers 18 into your parking lot? 19 MS. RUBITSKY: Yes. 20 MR. ATTA: Have you ever seen problems 21 with litter like beer bottles, with urination, 22 public urination, and things, have you witnessed 23 any of that yourself, or are you aware of that? 24 MS. RUBITSKY: Not from the Fuego bar. 25 If I come down there on Monday to work on the 87 1 club, yes, there are beer bottles stuck in my 2 planters in the front of my building from Sunday, 3 or, you know, something. They're not from you. 4 MR. ATTA: Thank you. 5 MS. RUBITSKY: And that's always been 6 the case, probably always will be. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Ms. 8 Rubitsky, just so we have it for our record, could 9 you spell your last name, please? 10 MS. RUBITSKY: R-U-B-I-T-S-K-Y. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Thank you 12 for your testimony. 13 MS. RUBITSKY: Thank you for allowing me 14 to talk. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: One additional 16 individual? I mean, you looked at me like I don't 17 know anymore that I'm going to add, but if nothing 18 else, if you just say that you're here, you're in 19 support, you substantially agree or add other 20 testimony, do that. 21 MS. RUBITSKY: Don't you have a 22 videocamera? 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Your name, please? 24 MR. SHOVERS: My name is Gary Shovers, 25 S-H-O-V-E-R-S. My address is 1070 East Thorne 88 1 Lane, Milwaukee, 53217. 2 I own Soref's Carpet City. We have very 3 sophisticated security cameras outside. In fact, 4 in the last week, the internal affairs department 5 of the police department copied an arrest where a 6 person hit a police car and drove away and was 7 arrested in our parking lot. The cameras are 8 pretty good. We've reviewed the tapes, my manager 9 looks at them all the time, I look at them. I see 10 a pretty peaceful crowd leaving Fuego at these 11 peak times. I don't see these problems. 12 The street is a busy street. There are 13 a lot of bars on the street. And since Fuego has 14 been open, my wife and I have been there 15 to 20 15 times in the past two years. The crowd is a 16 lively crowd. Upstairs, there is a lot of dancing 17 going on. It's just a fun club to go to, and I 18 always feel safe when I go there. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 20 MR. SHOVERS: Other than that, 21 everything that Carolyn said is what I agree with. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Thank you for 23 your testimony. If you could just hold on for a 24 moment. Questions by committee? 25 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Mr. Chairman. 89 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Witkowiak. 2 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Just for the 3 record, Mr. Shovers, you own the building that 4 Fuego is in, correct? 5 MR. SHOVERS: Yes, yes, I do. 6 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: I just want -- we 7 all know that, I just want the committee to know 8 that, so. 9 MR. SHOVERS: Thank you. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Mr. Atta, 11 any questions? Thank you. Was there any 12 additional testimony from anyone? 13 Mr. Atta, I'll allow you, Mr. Salem, if 14 he has any additional comments that you want to 15 make, and then we'll hear from Alderman Witkowiak, 16 and then I will allow you to provide a closing. 17 MR. SALEM: I'm willing to work with the 18 neighborhood, any way with the neighborhood. They 19 can talk to me, they have my phone number. Nobody 20 calls me about any problems. I'm willing to do 21 anything to help the neighborhood. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Salem, how long have 23 you been operating the license here? 24 MR. SALEM: A little over a 25 year-and-a-half now. 90 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Questions by 2 committee? 3 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Mr. Chair. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Hamilton. 5 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: I guess I have a 6 question of any one of the people who came down in 7 opposition. And I guess my question would be, 8 what is it that you feel like the club could do to 9 improve? Is there something specific that you 10 feel like they are not doing that would, you know, 11 improve? 12 Because I think that that's -- I mean, 13 you're automatically going to be here next year if 14 you he's not clear about what he can do in order 15 to improve the business. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Ms. Kaufmann, do you 17 just want to state your name for the record. 18 MS. KAUFMANN: Julie Kaufmann. I really 19 appreciate Carolyn's testimony, that was helpful 20 to me. I think what they could do is be more 21 proactive, and take the position of embracing this 22 is a shared community, rather than being 23 responsive saying that we never called. Actually 24 join the association. I know that the owner has, 25 but as a manager of the property, you could join 91 1 the association. We talk about these things at 2 every meeting. So when you say, "Did you talk to 3 the police? Did you make a statement to the 4 police?" We have monthly meetings with the 5 police, so we don't bother calling because we just 6 regularly share this information. If we were 7 having a bilateral exchange, I think that would be 8 really helpful and proactive. 9 And then I think some specific 10 strategies on closing could be useful, to be more 11 aggressive about the phasing of it. You know, I 12 get concerned when I hear assertions that nobody 13 has seen the urination, you know, that those 14 things don't happen, when we feel threatened 15 because when we come here to testify there is 16 going to be retaliation when the things that we 17 say are -- the response is "that didn't happen." 18 That's not very respectful. So if there could be 19 more respect, some listening to our concerns. 20 We really expect them to get renewed. 21 It's just that they could be really careful around 22 closing time. I think it could be an asset to the 23 neighborhood, personally. I don't think other 24 people who oppose this are going to share that 25 view, but on behalf of the neighborhood, I think 92 1 there are a lot of different points of view, and 2 if they could be more proactive and care about 3 closing, that would go a long way. And not 4 disrespect us and just disregard our point of 5 view. 6 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: I think that that's 7 good. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And any other questions 9 by committee at this time? Alderman Witkowiak? 10 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Thank you, Mr. 11 Chairman, members. The incidents that the people 12 speaking in opposition came down and spoke about 13 today, they did happen. These people didn't make 14 this up and come down and do this, come here to 15 testify to make something up about the club, these 16 incidents did happen. The -- and it could have 17 coincidentally happened just when security wasn't 18 watching or some of this stuff wasn't seen by 19 other people. These are all credible -- you all 20 have been on the committee for a while, and you've 21 seen credible and not so credible witnesses, and 22 these are all credible witnesses. So these are 23 issues that do have to be dealt with, and the fact 24 is that if the club wasn't there, those things 25 wouldn't be happening, so the committee has to 93 1 consider that. 2 Couple comments on some of the 3 testimony. When the people refer to the garbage 4 as a result of the club, we -- I think through my 5 experience, Alderman Bohl knows this, for years, a 6 lot of people carry what's called "travelers." In 7 other words, on the way, when they are going out, 8 they're doing, which is totally illegal, they're 9 consuming alcohol in the car. And when they get 10 to their destination, they're thinking about when 11 they drive home. If they get stopped, they don't 12 want any open empty containers of alcohol in the 13 car. So what they do is, when they open the door 14 to get out, they simply throw them in the gutter 15 or on the ground. That occurs at every place in 16 the City of Milwaukee. And that solves the 17 mystery as to why somebody would come to the 18 committee here and say, "I found all these bottles 19 of Heineken outside the place, and I want you guys 20 to do something about it." And the bar owner 21 says, "Check all my records, we don't handle 22 Heineken." So that's -- but the establishment has 23 people that, and again, they probably have to be 24 more consistent on this, do clean up the garage. 25 And I understand, we used to have people come to 94 1 the table and say, "Well, we don't sell Heineken, 2 why do we have to pick up the Heineken bottles?" 3 Perhaps those Heineken bottles are there because 4 your customers brought them there and dropped them 5 there. It doesn't matter how they got there. The 6 neighbors get upset because they see the garbage 7 there. The place is a center of activity so 8 somebody from the place should be out there 9 cleaning it up. They do a good job cleaning up 10 the garbage, but probably a little inconsistent. 11 There's been some talk of the fights and 12 things that happen. There was a police report 13 relative to the cutting that had occurred due to a 14 fight that happened with two people that were at 15 the bar. Those kinds of things do happen from 16 time to time, I'm not minimizing that. As far as 17 from a fighting standpoint, I've also heard the 18 story about somebody got beat to a pulp and then 19 shoved secretly in a car and taken off. It's 20 unfortunate there is, there was no police 21 involvement in that matter, or the police weren't 22 able to apprehend anybody. Because, I mean, if 23 that happened, it's not a good thing. I seriously 24 doubt, though, that the club management and staff 25 had anything to do with that fight. If that did, 95 1 in fact, happen, and did they cover it up? I 2 mean, that's a possibility. Things to be 3 considered. 4 But a couple things that I think they 5 could do to be proactive in eliminating much of 6 the problem, I see it as two possible problems: 7 No. 1, the club has become very popular. And I 8 think when people are coming into the club, and 9 especially on summer nights, one of the problems I 10 think you have is with lines or possibly people 11 waiting outside. And of course, they're not all 12 going to be out there totally silent and reading 13 the Bible. They're, you know, they've gone out in 14 the night to have a celebration, and they're 15 waiting to get in the club, and they can't get in. 16 Because the club is at capacity or near capacity, 17 they have to wait outside. I think that is, I 18 think that is part of the problem. It's up to the 19 management how they deal with that situation. I 20 mean, my suggestion would be at a certain point, 21 you just cut it off and say, "Everybody standing 22 here has to go home, because you can stand here 23 all night, but you're not going to get in." 24 Sometimes that causes a little bit of a problem 25 too, but we want to minimize the problems that 96 1 this is creating in the neighborhood. So that's 2 one issue that I think has to be dealt with that 3 perhaps they could work on. 4 And the other one is the one that 5 baffles me the most. And you talk about the tale 6 of two cities -- and what really happens here is 7 the noise and problems at closing time. Because 8 some of the people that have come down here and 9 testified gave very credible testimony that there 10 is, in fact, this group of people that just hangs 11 and visits and makes noise and parties, and then 12 if anyone says anything to them, it's, you know, 13 "F" you, and they stand up to them. And that's 14 why these people feel intimidated and sometimes 15 are even reluctant to complain because they are 16 afraid of retaliation. That's what the credible 17 witnesses have come down and testified to. The 18 management and staff from the place says, "That 19 doesn't happen," you know, "We move people along. 20 Everything is relatively organized when the people 21 leave." So that's the part that baffles me the 22 most. I'm thinking that the management of Fuego 23 should be more proactive and more out on the 24 street as to what they do there at closing time. 25 And I go back to, and many of you 97 1 members on the committee won't remember this, I 2 think Alderman Bohl does. One of the most popular 3 places at the time on the south side was on 28th 4 and Forest Home, on a commercial street smack dab 5 in the middle of a residential neighborhood, 6 fairly large capacity. I don't think it was 300, 7 but it was large. And this gentleman employed 8 people that, first of all, had to be perfectly 9 sober while they worked there. And at closing 10 time, he had those people out on the street. And 11 I'll tell you, for years and years and years would 12 go by and rarely was there a complaint about this 13 place because they actually had their people out 14 there at closing time. And if anybody did get 15 boisterous or try to start any problems, they 16 identified who they were and say, "You're out of 17 here for a year. Don't even try to come back. 18 Done even try." and managed to run a place 19 successfully just on the edge of a residential 20 neighborhood with no problems. 21 I think that this organization has to do 22 more in that respect to either have a graduated 23 closing time where you let so many people out at a 24 time, but make sure that you have all your best 25 people out there. And the problem is, places that 98 1 -- and I believe they do not allow their security 2 to drink, I don't even, I don't want to speculate 3 but, and the people that are out there -- because 4 when the security people are drinking along with 5 the people that are leaving, you don't have the, 6 you're not so sensitive to the noise that's going 7 on out there. So the people that are out there, 8 basically policing the activities of the people 9 that are leaving, should be perfectly sober and 10 cognizant of the noise being made out there, 11 considerate to their neighbors. 12 I think that the, I think that the staff 13 and management at the club can work to accomplish 14 some of these things and make smoother transitions 15 as far as the ingress and egress, and the -- how 16 that affects the neighborhood. And I hope that in 17 the future, they will work diligently on this. 18 If the problems that were stated here 19 today are totally ignored or blown off, I can tell 20 you this will escalate, and next year, you know, 21 this probably won't be a pretty sight at the 22 table. But I believe that the staff and 23 management is willing to -- you know, everybody 24 will come to the table when it's their day of 25 reckoning over here and say, "I'll do exactly what 99 1 you tell me to do, no problem, hundred percent, 2 swear." Everybody will tell you that when their 3 license is on the line. I think from what I know 4 of these people, and what I hear, that they will, 5 in fact, work towards correcting the problems. 6 But I want to continue to hear from the people 7 that are affected by this because it's important. 8 And I'm glad that so many people came down to 9 testify. Because often we get these e-mails, and 10 we get these phone calls, and if people don't come 11 down and testify, it's hard for me to present 12 hearsay evidence in a manner you, the committee, 13 can consider of what they want to do. 14 So I would definitely like to see some 15 improvements with the way the place is run, 16 especially at closing time; should consider 17 looking at the policies for when you have people 18 waiting in line if that's part of the problem. 19 You just have to do a better job policing the 20 area. But the -- overall, I think the committee 21 needs to take the testimony into consideration 22 what they heard today and use their own discretion 23 and how they feel ruling about this. Thank you. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Any 25 questions by committee of Alderman Witkowiak? Mr. 100 1 Atta, any closings that you want to make here? 2 MR. ATTA: Yes. Thank you, Alderman 3 Bohl. I first want to start off thanking Alderman 4 Witkowiak. I want to thank the members of the 5 committee. I want to personally apologize to 6 Alderman Bohl if I came off a bit strong and was 7 disrespectful toward the chair. I would like to 8 thank those individuals who came in support of my 9 client with regard to the renewal of his 10 application, and I'd also like to thank those who 11 came in opposition. Although we may have 12 disagreement, they are certainly exercising their 13 rights, and as an attorney, as an attorney, I 14 basically will uphold the rights of all 15 individuals expressing their positions, whether we 16 agree with them or not. 17 I believe that my client has tried to 18 operate a business as, in the best possible manner 19 he can. He is a young businessowner. He has put 20 issues in place, security, and so forth, to try to 21 really operate this in the best manner possible. 22 I know and I understand that some 23 individuals are concerned there is maybe trash, 24 traffic, loud noise, and so forth. Clearly, there 25 are some issues that can be addressed, and I 101 1 believe that my client is more than willing to sit 2 down with any individuals and try to address 3 those. He not only was -- he has relations with a 4 number of his adjoining neighbors. He has good 5 relationships with them as was, for example, 6 testified by Carolyn. He is a very approachable 7 person, a very personable person. 8 The implications that were asking 9 questions about location, or there is going to be 10 something, you know, dangerous about that, I 11 really find that to be quite hurtful and 12 insulting. That is not the way that my client, 13 that is not the way any of us would want to 14 operate. I do believe that my client can sit down 15 with a number of individuals in the neighborhood, 16 whether Julie or others who have some reasonable 17 issues, and they are willing to come forward and 18 say, look, how can we try to address these? How 19 can we work out some of these problems? How can 20 we try to alleviate some of these concerns? 21 Again, I'm not trying to minimize their 22 issues. I do, though, believe that this is 23 something that is important to try to work 24 together. Even with Ann, I understand that I 25 found some of her comments to be troubling. At 102 1 the same time, I will tell you, if I were to bring 2 my mom down to the club, and she would see things 3 that Ann saw, she would probably have the very 4 same reaction as Ann. It is a generational thing, 5 it is a change, a different culture, and it's 6 different people. And it's sometimes difficult 7 when change comes into a place when you happen to 8 be used to something and then something different 9 comes along. 10 I will tell you, clearly, on the record, 11 and this is a commitment that I will make on 12 behalf of my client, he is not doing this only at 13 the time of coming for a hearing. He is always 14 approachable. He is always willing to sit down 15 with the neighbors, with others in the community, 16 with people who are in the neighborhood 17 association, and so forth, to really make this a 18 neighborhood that is, that really works for all. 19 It is a situation that I believe can be win/win. 20 Just like his situation with Carolyn who owns the 21 jazz club is win/win, I think that his 22 relationship with others can also be win/win, so 23 long as everyone does act reasonably and 24 appreciates the diversity and the variety that is 25 going to occur in every community. And so, I will 103 1 make that commitment on behalf of my client. 2 And again, I would like to thank the 3 committee and Alderman Witkowiak for -- and the 4 others for what has taken place today. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mr. Atta. 6 Were there any final questions by committee? We 7 are in committee. Is there a motion? You can 8 bring Alderman Witkowiak to chair, and I'll make a 9 motion here. 10 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Can we move to get 11 me reinstated on the committee, please? 12 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Mr. Chair. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Hamilton. 14 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Thank you, Mr. 15 Chair. This one is a little difficult. I guess 16 just going through the difficulty first: There 17 was a warning letter last year, and we have, in 18 essence, one police item this year, albeit, you 19 know, it was a, you know, accusation of stabbing 20 and turned out to be a whole lot less than what it 21 was reported as. But it's an incident of 22 violence, and it was a, wasn't as serious as it 23 was reported. 24 I guess, probably the greatest concern 25 for the committee, and for myself, is neighborhood 104 1 objections that came down and took a pretty 2 significant amount of time out of their schedules 3 to come down here and testify to the issues that 4 they have. At the same time, you had some very, 5 very credible people to come down and testify on 6 your behalf, and I think they were extremely 7 persuasive. Especially Carolyn, is that -- just, 8 as a businessowner operating in the area, the 9 honesty that was there. I really appreciated 10 that. 11 And you know, despite your security not 12 being licensed, they are very well respected, and 13 I know that they've done good work throughout the 14 city, I know that. So I recognize that you didn't 15 bring a whole bunch of people down here that go to 16 the club, and, you know, they came down here and 17 said, "We want a place to party." So given the 18 license, you didn't do that. These are 19 businessowners in the area. This is, you know, 20 people who operate your facility, so they know 21 about your establishment, and they gave good 22 testimony. 23 That being said, you don't only have to 24 work with the people that like you, you also have 25 to work with the people who don't. You also have 105 1 to work with the people who have issues with your 2 establishment. And one of the things that, you 3 know, causes a little uncomfortableness -- well, 4 just be approached to some of the witnesses who 5 came down, you know, wanting to do research on 6 their properties, and, you know, asking them what 7 their address is, for reasons that, you know, may 8 make them feel uncomfortable because of the way 9 the other people have inquired. And if they felt, 10 you know, if they felt the need to go down on 11 Tuesday and Saturday just to watch the club 12 because they want to look out for their 13 neighborhood, so be it. And, you know, the truth 14 of the matter is, I think the committee recognizes 15 that there will be instances where people will 16 object to you just because they don't like who you 17 are. And maybe you don't, maybe they're not, you 18 know, into diversity, maybe they have prejudices 19 that they don't even recognize that they have, 20 which is what we deal with a lot of times. But 21 hopefully, we have the type of committee that can 22 take that type of testimony and weigh in, and we 23 can come up to some type of conclusion. 24 So with all of that being said, I think 25 I'm going make a motion for a ten-day suspension, 106 1 and really with the expectation that we really 2 don't have to see you again, because I don't think 3 we do. The testimony about, if the testimony 4 about who and what you are is true, you have 5 surrounded yourself with some pretty good people. 6 I think the actions that you took before this 7 committee, would become a part of the neighborhood 8 association and the business community, will put 9 you in touch with some of their concerns. It 10 doesn't seem that you have a club that is out of 11 control. So I can feel with some comfort that a 12 ten-day suspension is enough for you to be 13 motivated to reach out to other venues in the 14 area. And at the same time, you know, it's not 15 making you responsible for activity, you know, 16 that you haven't been necessarily doing. I mean, 17 this is not a long police report, but, you know, 18 we have some issues with neighbors and some issues 19 in the neighborhood that obviously your alderman 20 feels like you can correct. And I'm looking 21 forward to you being able to do that. You got the 22 staff to do it, too. With that, Mr. Chair, that's 23 the motion I'll make. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. And 25 Alderman, that obviously is based on some of the 107 1 neighborhood testimony? Did you -- is that based 2 on Item No. 5 in the police report? 3 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: And Item No. 5. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you for 5 clarifying. The motion by Alderman Hamilton is to 6 recommend approval of the renewal of the license 7 with the issuance of a ten-day suspension based on 8 neighborhood testimony and Item No. 5 in the 9 police report. Is there additional discussion on 10 the motion? Are there any objections? 11 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Objection. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Hearing one objection, 13 the motion will carry on a 4 to 1 vote. 14 Mr. Schrimpf. 15 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Atta, the committee 16 is going to be doing findings of facts and 17 conclusions of law recommending renewal to this 18 license with a ten-day suspension. You will 19 receive a copy of that. I would appreciate a card 20 from you. You may file written objections to that 21 recommendation. If so, they must be received by 22 4:45 p.m., February 4, 2010, in room 205 of this 23 building. If you submit written objections, then 24 you will also have the opportunity to appear 25 before the Milwaukee Common Council when they 108 1 consider this matter at approximately 9:00 a.m. on 2 February 9, 2010, in the Common Council chambers 3 of this building. The same floor that you and 4 your client are on, but the other end of the 5 building. Thank you. 6 MR. ATTA: Thank you very much. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 109 1 STATE OF WISCONSIN ) ) SS: 2 COUNTY OF MILWAUKEE ) 3 4 5 I, KAREN RENEE, Court Reporter and 6 Notary Public in and for the State of Wisconsin, do 7 hereby certify that the above proceedings of the City 8 of Milwaukee Licenses Committee was recorded by me on 9 January 26, 2010, and reduced to writing under my 10 personal direction. 11 I further certify that I am not a 12 relative or employee or attorney or counsel of any of 13 the parties, or a relative or employee of such attorney 14 or counsel, or financially interested directly or 15 indirectly in this action. 16 In witness whereof I have hereunder set 17 my hand and affixed my seal of office at Milwaukee, 18 Wisconsin, this 1st day of February, 2010. 19 20 21 _________________________________ Notary Public 22 In and for the State of Wisconsin 23 24 My Commission Expires: March 11, 2012. 25