1 CITY OF MILWAUKEE LICENSES COMMITTEE * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * In the Matter of: JOHN'S JEWELRY, INC Precious Metal and Gem Dealer License CHON SUNG LEE, "JOHN'S JEWELRY, INC" 1119 West Historic Mitchell Street. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Proceedings had and testimony given in the above-entitled matter before the LICENSES COMMITTEE CITY OF MILWAUKEE on the 19th day of January, 2010. 2 1 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We now have Item No. 3, 3 which is File No. 091201, a motion relating to the 4 revocation of the Precious Metal and Gem Dealer 5 License of Chon Sung Lee for the premises at 1119 6 West Historic Mitchell Street doing business as 7 John's Jewelry in the 12th Aldermanic District. 8 If you're present, if you could please come 9 forward here. 10 MR. PARK: The license agent, Chon Sung 11 Lee, appears in person, and his attorney, Wansoo 12 Park, for this hearing represent. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You can have a seat here 14 too, please. Are you, sir, are you legal counsel 15 for Mr. Lee? 16 MR. PARK: Yes. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If you could state your 18 appearance, please? 19 MR. PARK: Last name, P-A-R-K, first 20 name, W-A-N-S-O-O. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: W-A-N -- 22 MR. PARK: S-O-O 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: S-O-O, Wansoo Park. 24 MR. PARK: Yes. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. We will need 3 1 to swear in your client as well as the police 2 department, and the city attorney's office will 3 have immunity for that. 4 MR. PARK: We'd like to present the, 5 kind of, opening statement. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. What we'll need 7 to do is, I have a couple of other items -- 8 MR. PARK: We'd like to request 9 adjournment of the Common Council proceeding as to 10 permit the City of Milwaukee Municipal Court to 11 process the pending citations. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 13 MR. PARK: On the ground, four. We'd 14 like to request adjournment, yeah. For on the 15 ground of four reasons: First, Mr. Lee has a wife 16 and two children. The loss of license would 17 devastate his -- 18 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Sir, did you want 19 to -- 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: What I do want to do is, 21 I want to first swear in your client to 22 acknowledge -- we will give you an opportunity to 23 make that statement in a moment, sir. 24 If you want to raise your right hand, 25 Captain, and if there are others who are present 4 1 to testify in this matter, why don't we just swear 2 you all in at this point, sir? Please raise your 3 right hands. 4 MS. BLACK: Do you solemnly affirm under 5 the pains and penalties of perjury of the State of 6 Wisconsin the testimony you are about to give is 7 the truth, the whole about and nothing but the 8 truth? 9 ALL: I do. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. We'll -- let 11 me just ask at this time here, Mr. Park, and for 12 Mr. Lee, pursuant to Chapter 90-10 of the 13 Milwaukee Code of Ordinances, do you acknowledge 14 receiving summons and notice of a sworn complaint 15 of revocation of your Precious Metal and Gem 16 Dealer License along with accompanied police 17 report with the possibility that your license may 18 be revoked? 19 MR. PARK: Yes. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, thank you. 21 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman, you said, 22 "90-10." I believe it's 92-10. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: 92-10? 24 MR. SCHRIMPF: Right. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you for the 5 1 clarification. So we'll let the record reflect 2 that clarification, thank you. 3 The -- at this point, Mr. Schrimpf, I 4 just want you to provide some edification to the 5 committee as to, at this point, what the 6 boundaries the committee has to operate under. 7 And also, meaning the options to dismiss the 8 complaint and to renew the license. 9 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, this is a complaint 10 seeking revocation -- 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Correct. 12 MR. SCHRIMPF: -- for license, Mr. 13 Chairman. The options of the committee are to 14 dismiss the complaint if the committee believes 15 that there is insufficient evidence to warrant a 16 suspension or revocation. It is also possible 17 under section, or under both Chapter 92 as well as 18 Chapter 85 of the Milwaukee Code of Ordinances to 19 suspend the license for not less than 10 days nor 20 more than 90 days if the committee feels that is 21 appropriate. This is not a renewal hearing, so 22 renewal is not before the committee. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Thank you. All 24 right, thank you. Any questions by committee on 25 that? Okay. At this point, is there any 6 1 statement that you wish to make regarding the 2 pending charges? 3 MR. PARK: Yes. The license agent, Mr. 4 Lee, respectfully request the adjournment of the 5 Common Council proceedings to permit the City of 6 Milwaukee Municipal Court to process the pending 7 citation on the grounds that: First, Mr. Lee has 8 a wife and two children. The loss of this license 9 would devastate his family; second, Mr. Lee should 10 be entitled to have the court make a proper 11 judicial determination; third, a notice of only 12 one week is not reasonable to respond to these 13 serious charges; finally, this committee decision 14 could hurt the court decision, so it should happen 15 after the decision of the court. This is our 16 petition. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Mr. 18 Schrimpf, do you have thoughts on any of those 19 petitions here? 20 MR. SCHRIMPF: There are a series of 21 cases, Mr. Chairman, that deal with the issue of 22 what happens when you have both a civil 23 proceeding, and this is -- the matter pending 24 before the committee is in the nature of a civil 25 proceeding, as well as a criminal proceeding, and 7 1 this issue has gone to the courts of the 7th 2 Circuit Court of Appeals a number of times. 3 Basically, the argument broadens from the 4 standpoint of the licensee that if they're forced 5 to go through a civil proceeding at this juncture, 6 prior to the time that the court system handles 7 the case, there's a risk that testimony could come 8 out, or information could come out that would be 9 harmful to the civil proceeding, or the criminal 10 proceeding, rather, and then therefore, the civil 11 proceeding should be held. That's the argument. 12 The courts have pretty uniformly ruled 13 that that is not necessarily something that has to 14 be granted, that the mere fact that there is a 15 civil proceeding which is pending, or which goes 16 forward and that may have an effect upon the 17 criminal proceeding, is something that, you know, 18 you can take that into account. But the fact of 19 the matter is, there is no particular reason to 20 stop the civil proceeding to allow the criminal 21 proceeding to go forward. 22 However, that, like everything, is 23 reposed to the sound discretion of the committee, 24 and the committee certainly can evaluate that as 25 it best sees fit. 8 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: In terms of the Precious 2 Metal and Gem Dealer License as it relates to 3 pending charges, does the committee have the same 4 discretion as it would with alcohol beverage 5 licenses in that the committee can consider in 6 alcohol beverage licenses as a pending charge? 7 MR. SCHRIMPF: Yes. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: It does. 9 MR. SCHRIMPF: And that's a concept that 10 comes up under, really, the Wisconsin Fair 11 Employment Act. And basically, what the Wisconsin 12 Fair Employment Act does is extends itself and its 13 licensing decisions. And if there is a pending 14 charge, then a license or employment can be 15 suspended, cannot be denied, you can't fire the 16 person, you know, for a pending charge, but it is 17 something that can result in a suspension of that 18 person pending the resolution of the criminal 19 matters. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, thank you. Is 21 there any desire on the committee not to proceed 22 forward based on any of the motions made by the 23 petitioner's attorney? 24 MR. PARK: One week notice is too short, 25 one week, just one week. 9 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Ms. Grill, would you or 2 Mr. Schrimpf be able to comment on the notice and 3 when it was sent out? And Mr. Schrimpf, if you 4 may address the issue with a revocation just to 5 ensure that we are under city code and state 6 statutes with regard to notice? 7 MR. SCHRIMPF: Sure. The code specifies 8 the amount of time that is necessary, and it is 9 consistent with the other licenses that the 10 committee handles. Basically, as to the date of 11 when it went out and when it was served, I believe 12 those papers are in your file. It would be the 13 date of the summons I believe. And let me just 14 check back on that. I believe it was served 15 January 12th. Am I correct on that? That's what 16 I'm seeing here. 17 MS. GRILL: Mr. Chairman, I believe Ms. 18 Black would have better knowledge of that. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We have the 12th of 20 January, correct, for summons. Does that comport 21 with the statutory obligation? 22 MR. SCHRIMPF: Yes. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 24 MR. PARK: On the -- I'm not the 25 attorney handling the citation, so. I'm just 10 1 temporarily represent the license agent for this 2 hearing. So the attorney who handles the citation 3 will represent Mr. Lee in the matter of the 4 interest of -- 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, at this point, 6 I -- 7 MR. PARK: The official notice of one 8 week, we have no time to investigate the documents 9 or -- too short, yeah. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, at this point, I'm 11 going to render a decision that we'll -- 12 MR. PARK: And his jewelry shop, his own 13 building, a loss of license is like the blowout, 14 like, it's very serious charges. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Park, I appreciate 16 that, and what I'm going to say right now is that 17 I'm going to reject your petition here. And what 18 we're going to do is proceed forward on the 19 grounds of this hearing. Again, I will ask the 20 committee if there is any objection from 21 committee? Okay. 22 What I'll do is that I will ask you at 23 this point if there are any -- if you have any 24 issues to raise with the merit of the charges as 25 they are written forward in the notice that you 11 1 received? 2 MR. PARK: Actually, we are -- any 3 mention about his conduct, or his, for example, 4 can be -- 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Park, could you 6 swing that microphone around so that we can be 7 sure that we get you on the record? 8 MR. PARK: At this point, we are tied 9 up. As I said before, there is a pending 10 citation, so we, we cannot mention about Mr. Lee's 11 conduct, or to be short to -- and this -- 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So you're not -- at this 13 point, you are not denying the charges here? Is 14 that -- I don't want to speak on the record for 15 you. I want to ascertain, are you not denying the 16 charges? 17 MR. LEE: Yeah, Mr. Lee, denies all 18 charges. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: He does deny all 20 charges? 21 MR. PARK: Yes. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. So do you wish to 23 proceed forward with an evidentiary hearing? 24 MR. PARK: Mr. Lee asks for adjournment 25 because -- 12 1 MR. LEE: I want to postpone this 2 hearing, please. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And I've, I have -- hear 4 your request and have considered it, and we are -- 5 I'm going to indicate that we're going to proceed 6 forward here. So I am making a ruling to indicate 7 that I do not believe that sound grounds have been 8 made for postponement of this hearing, and we will 9 proceed forward. Now, you've indicated that 10 knowing that, that you do deny the charges, at 11 this point we will proceed forward. So I'm going 12 to proceed forward with this hearing here. And 13 we'll just ask you to move forward and defend the 14 charges as best you feel that you are able to 15 here. Okay? 16 MR. PARK: I want to know of the denying 17 of that. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm denying your request 19 for postponement under the grounds that statutory, 20 that the statutory requirements have been met. 21 The notice was met adequately. Mr. Lee has had 22 this here now for -- 23 MR. PARK: What is your sound 24 discretion? 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, I'm not providing 13 1 that. I think that there's been no secret here in 2 terms of his understanding of where things are 3 forward. And at this point, I'm going to ask we 4 proceed forward with this hearing. At this point 5 here, I'm going to -- 6 MR. PARK: Excuse me, we have no 7 interpreter. He cannot speak fully or understand 8 fully. We need interpreter. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And ultimately, I 10 believe the notice should have provided you 11 knowledge that if you need an interpreter that it 12 was something that you needed to provide. 13 MR. PARK: I know, but one week, too 14 short. How can we deploy into -- 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm going to ask you at 16 this point here, Mr. Park, to allow me to proceed 17 forward with this hearing without interrupting, 18 please, okay. 19 At this point here, if you could each 20 state your appearance as well, too, and grab the 21 microphones, bend them down so we can get you on 22 the record. 23 MS. RUIZ: Assistant City Attorney 24 Jarely Ruiz on behalf of the Milwaukee Police 25 Department. 14 1 CAPTAIN GAGLIONE: Captain Donald 2 Gaglione, District No. 2, Milwaukee Police 3 Department. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Ms. Ruiz, is it you at 5 this point here that will present the evidence in 6 support of the complaint? 7 MS. RUIZ: Yes, your Honor, I will be 8 putting on witness testimony today. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. I'll ask you at 10 this point to make your presentation of the 11 charges. Let the record reflect that all members 12 of committee are present here. 13 MS. RUIZ: And I'm sorry, is the summary 14 going to be read for the record, too? 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf, in terms 16 of protocol, is that something the police 17 department should do, or is that something that 18 should be read into the record by the city 19 attorney as it makes its presentation of the 20 charges? 21 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman, I think 22 that it would be proper, since the police report 23 was part of the complaint and was served upon the 24 licensee, I think, the normal procedure would be 25 to have Sergeant MacGillis read the police report, 15 1 and then the applicant -- strike that, the 2 licensee can certainly cross examine the sergeant 3 on any of those issues. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sergeant MacGillis, 5 please proceed with the police report. 6 MR. MACGILLIS: Certainly, and I'll 7 start on Page 2, Item 3: 8 On 3/18/2009 at 10:53 p.m., Milwaukee 9 Police were flagged down at 1119 West Historic 10 Mitchell Street, John's Jewelry, regarding a 11 robbery. Investigation revealed the store was 12 robbed and a police report was filed. 13 I believe there is a mistake in Item 3. 14 That robbery occurred at 10:53 a.m., not p.m. It 15 was the morning of March 18th. 16 Moving on to 4: On 11/11/2009 at 7 -- 17 correction, 3:07 p.m., a Milwaukee police officer 18 in plain clothes went to 1119 West Historic 19 Mitchell Street, John's Jewelry, and offered a 20 ring for sell -- for sale, it should read. The 21 applicant agreed to buy the ring from the 22 undercover officer even though he had no 23 identification. 24 On 11/25/2009 at 10:12 a.m., Milwaukee 25 Police executed a search warrant at 1119 West 16 1 Historic Mitchell Street, John's Jewelry. During 2 the search warrant, the ring the officer sold to 3 the applicant on 1 -- correction, on 11/11/2009 4 was located. Also during the search warrant, 5 additional violations of the Milwaukee Municipal 6 Ordinance related to other transactions were 7 discovered. 8 Regarding the transaction involving the 9 Milwaukee police officer on 11/11/2009, the 10 applicant was issued the following citations: 11 Precious Metal/Gems Dealer Regulations, 12 Dealer to Identified Seller. Due for pretrial on 13 2/19/2010, 8:30 a.m., Branch 2. The case number 14 has been assigned. 15 The second charge: Precious Metal/Gems 16 Dealer Regulations, Reports Required. Finding: 17 Due for pretrial on 2/19/2010, 8:30 a.m. in Branch 18 2. The case number has been assigned. 19 And Item 3: Precious Metal/Gems Dealer 20 Regulations, Dealer to Maintain Register. Due for 21 pretrial on 2/19/2010, 8:30 a.m., Branch 2, and a 22 case number has been assigned for that. 23 Violations regarding a transaction on 24 11/12/2009 discovered during execution of the 25 search warrant on 11/25/2009. The applicant was 17 1 issued the following citations: 2 No. 1, Precious Metal/Gems Dealer 3 Regulations, Dealer to Identified Seller. Due for 4 pretrial on 2/19/2010, 8:30 a.m. in Branch 2. A 5 case number has been assigned. 6 Precious Metal/Gems Dealer Regulations, 7 Reports Required. Due for pretrial 2/19/2010, 8 8:30 a.m., Branch 2. Case number has been 9 assigned. 10 Precious Metal/Gems Dealer Regulations 11 Dealer to Maintain Register. Due for pretrial 12 2/19/2010, 8:30 a.m. in Branch 2, and a case 13 number has been assigned. 14 And another charge: Precious Metal/Gems 15 Dealer Regulations, Dealer to Obtain a Written 16 Declaration of Ownership. Due for pretrial 17 2/19/2010, 8:30 a.m., Branch 2, and a case number 18 has been assigned. 19 Violations regarding a transaction on 20 11/14/2009 discovered during execution of the 21 search warrant on 11/25/2009. The applicant was 22 issued the following citations, there are four of 23 them: 24 Precious Metal/Gem Dealer Regulations, 25 Dealer to Identified Seller. Due for pretrial 18 1 2/19/2010, 8:30 a.m., Branch 2. Case number has 2 been assigned. 3 Another charge: Precious Metal/Gems 4 Dealer Regulations, Reports Required. Same date 5 pretrial, 2/19/2010, 8:30 a.m., Branch 2. Case 6 number has been assigned. 7 A third charge: Precious Metal/Gem 8 Dealer Regulations, Dealer to Maintain Register. 9 Pretrial 2/19/2010, 8:30 a.m., Branch 2. Case 10 number has been assigned. 11 And a charge of Precious Metal/Gems 12 Dealer Regulation, Dealer to Obtain Written 13 Declaration of Ownership. Pretrial 2/19/2010, 14 8:30 a.m., Branch 2. A case number has been 15 assigned. 16 Violations regarding an additional 17 transaction on 11/14/2009 discovered during 18 execution of the search warrant on 11/25/2009. 19 The applicant was issued the following citations, 20 there are three: 21 Charge of Precious Metal/Gems Dealer 22 Regulations, Dealer to Identified Seller. 23 Pretrial set 2/19/2009 -- correction, that's a 24 typo, it's got to be 2010, 8:30 a.m., Branch 2. 25 Case number has been assigned. 19 1 Charge of Precious Metal/Gems Dealer 2 regulations, Reports Required. Pretrial date of 3 2/19/2010, 8:30 a.m., Branch 2. Case number has 4 been assigned. 5 And lastly, Precious Metal/Gems Dealer 6 Regulations, Dealer to Maintain Register. Due for 7 pretrial 2/19/2010, 8:30 a.m., Branch 2, and a 8 case number has been assigned. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Mr. Park, on 10 behalf of your client here, are there any 11 questions or comments that you have? Any issues 12 you want to raise in any of the matters in the 13 police report? 14 MR. LEE: I understand that they want to 15 offer the police officer to bring the ticket a 16 week later, this date. And he want to take a sign 17 that was signed. And I ask, "Why so much?" I 18 thought that this was only four items, and the 19 items of filing and a description isn't so good, 20 but only that something about four items. So why 21 just the four items? But they just want sign it. 22 At the time I do not understand only the part, the 23 11, 11 citations, and they want to sign it. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Park, Mr. Lee, any 25 other points you want to raise? 20 1 MR. LEE: And the one week notice of 2 really short, short-term and please give me the 3 postponement. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Lee, I have already 5 indicated we are not going to postpone this 6 hearing here. So the question is, is I want to 7 know if those are, if you have -- are finished 8 here in terms of your willingness to address the 9 items in the police report? If there were any 10 additional questions, I want to ensure you have 11 sufficient opportunity if you have disagreement 12 with any of these items in the police report that 13 you state them. 14 MR. LEE: That the 11 citations -- I own 15 is explain to me that 11 citations about why he 16 take a sign, he didn't explain that. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Let me ask if 18 there are questions by committee at this time? 19 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman, I have a 20 question more of Ms. Ruiz, or possibly Captain 21 Gaglione. Are there going to be documents coming 22 into the record substantiating these records of 23 what's in the police report? 24 MS. RUIZ: We will have two officers 25 testify. They were the ones involved in the 21 1 investigation and in writing out the citations, 2 and we do also have a video that we will be 3 showing once all the testimony has been given. 4 And we would like that to be admitted into the 5 record after it's been played. 6 MR. SCHRIMPF: I think, Mr. Chairman, it 7 would be helpful to have the underlying 8 documentation of what's in the police report. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Why don't we ask 10 you to proceed forward at this point? 11 MS. RUIZ: I will be calling Officer 12 Jeff Theile. And just so you know, Mr. Chair, we 13 do have the police officer who, during the 14 investigation, was undercover, and he will be 15 testifying today. But we have asked Channel 25 to 16 not have him on camera, and they said that they 17 would be able to do that. So just so that the 18 chair and the committee is aware that we have done 19 that just to not have him on camera. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. You've been sworn 21 in, Officer? 22 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, sir. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Could you at least 24 provide your name and your position within the 25 police department? 22 1 OFFICER THIELE: Sure. My first name is 2 Jeffrey, J-E-F-F-R-E-Y, last name Thiele, 3 T-H-I-E-L-E. I'm currently a police officer with 4 the City of Milwaukee assigned to District No. 2. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Please proceed, Ms. 6 Ruiz. 7 MS. RUIZ: How long have you been so 8 employed with the police department? 9 OFFICER THIELE: Just under 14 years. 10 MS. RUIZ: And could you please tell me 11 what has been your assignment for the past three 12 months? 13 OFFICER THIELE: My partner, Officer 14 Podlosick (phonetic), and I have been assigned to 15 State Street Investigation, SSI, for burglaries in 16 District No. 2. 17 MS. RUIZ: And during those 18 investigations, what did you discover? 19 OFFICER THIELE: As we were 20 investigating the burglaries that happened in 21 District No. 2, we found that the burglars that 22 were breaking into people's homes were taking the 23 stolen gold and jewelry to different jewelry shops 24 in District No. 2, and they were able to sell 25 these items to these shops and the shops were not 23 1 taking identification. They weren't recording 2 these transactions, which is all a violation, 3 obviously, of city ordinance. 4 My partner and I arrested several 5 burglars who, during their Mirandized interview, 6 voluntarily gave up this information. And we did 7 follow up at the stores regarding those 8 allegations. 9 MS. RUIZ: And what was one of the 10 jewelry stores that came to your attention? 11 OFFICER THIELE: John's Jewelry. 12 MS. RUIZ: And that is located where? 13 OFFICER THIELE: 1119 West Historic 14 Mitchell Street. 15 MS. RUIZ: And that's in the City of 16 Milwaukee? 17 OFFICER THIELE: City and County of 18 Milwaukee, yes, ma'am. 19 MS. RUIZ: And you stated that -- during 20 your investigation, what did you learn that 21 precious metals and gems dealers are required to 22 do? 23 OFFICER THIELE: Businesses that hold 24 PM&G licenses are required by ordinance to take a 25 picture identification card from the person, from 24 1 the general public, of who they are buying that 2 jewelry from. That information, along with the 3 description of the gold or the jewelry, is to be 4 placed on a PP16A, which is a police department 5 form that we give to all licensed premises in the 6 City of Milwaukee. 7 The PM&G licensee or their employee are 8 to fill out the PP16A: Name, address, date of 9 birth, specifically an identification card number 10 of some kind, an accurate description of what they 11 are buying from the general public, along with 12 filling out what is called a declaration, "written 13 declaration of ownership" on the back. If the 14 person selling, the general public, cannot provide 15 a picture ID, another form of identification is 16 acceptable; such as, like a We Energies bill with 17 somebody's name it. However, if they do take 18 that, they are to -- they are required by 19 ordinance to take a fingerprint of that 20 individual. 21 MS. RUIZ: And how did you become aware 22 of these requirements? 23 OFFICER THIELE: I read the ordinance. 24 MS. RUIZ: Now, were you on duty on 25 November 11th, at approximately 8:00 a.m.? 25 1 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, ma'am. 2 MS. RUIZ: And what was the nature of 3 your assignment on that day? 4 OFFICER THIELE: We were, obviously, a 5 police officer. We were attempting to make gold 6 and jewelry sales to four businesses, four PM&G 7 businesses in our district. 8 MS. RUIZ: In preparation for that 9 investigation in particular, John's Jewelry, how 10 did you prepare for that assignment? 11 OFFICER THIELE: We were able to obtain 12 gold and jewelry from the Milwaukee Police 13 Department property control section that was going 14 to be disposed of, so we could use that, those 15 pieces, in our investigation. We also were able 16 to obtain an undercover camera from Milwaukee HIDA 17 Office that we could use for our investigation. 18 We were also lucky enough to obtain an undercover 19 police officer from District No. 2 that worked 20 with us for that day. 21 MS. RUIZ: What was the name of that 22 officer? 23 OFFICER THIELE: Officer Christopher 24 Greer. 25 MS. RUIZ: And you said that you were 26 1 able to obtain an undercover camera. When you 2 received that camera, was that camera empty? 3 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, ma'am. 4 MS. RUIZ: Did you know how to use that 5 camera? 6 OFFICER THIELE: We were taught by the 7 technical officer at HIDA how to use that camera. 8 MS. RUIZ: And you gave that camera to 9 Officer Greer? 10 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, ma'am. 11 MS. RUIZ: When you gave that camera to 12 Officer Greer, was the camera empty? 13 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, ma'am. 14 MS. RUIZ: And was he shown how to use 15 it? 16 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, ma'am. 17 MS. RUIZ: What else did you give 18 Officer Greer on that day? 19 OFFICER THIELE: When we went out to do 20 our investigation, we gave Officer Greer several 21 pieces of jewelry that had been photographed prior 22 to us giving it to him, so that we knew which 23 exact pieces were going to the different 24 businesses that we were going to investigate. So 25 we gave Officer Greer that jewelry along with the 27 1 camera and began our investigations of all the 2 different businesses. 3 MS. RUIZ: Okay. So could you explain 4 to me the procedure from once you left to go to 5 John's Jewelry? 6 OFFICER THIELE: Yes. The three of us 7 got into our vehicle. We drove to a predetermined 8 meet spot where we turned on the camera, gave 9 Officer Greer all of items that we were attempting 10 to sell. We watched Officer Greer walk from our 11 predetermined spot to John's Jewelry. We had 12 eyeballs on him the entire time until he walked 13 into the business. My partner and I stayed in our 14 position of surveillance until Officer Greer 15 exited John's Jewelry where we then went to our 16 predetermined meet spot and met Officer Greer 17 there. 18 MS. RUIZ: So he was in your line of 19 sight the entire time? 20 OFFICER THIELE: No. Officer Greer was 21 in our sight from the time we dropped him off 22 until the time he entered John's Jewelry. When he 23 got into the jewelry store, we obviously lost 24 sight of him. As I stated, we stayed in our 25 position until Officer Greer exited John's 28 1 Jewelry. We watched him walk across Mitchell 2 Street, and we then went to our predetermined 3 spot. 4 MS. RUIZ: When officer Greer met you at 5 the predetermined spot, what did he give you? 6 OFFICER THIELE: Officer Greer got into 7 our vehicle, he handed me a $20 bill, he handed me 8 the camera and had explained to me that he made a 9 sale to John's Jewelry against city ordinance 10 without the use of an ID card. 11 MS. RUIZ: And just to back up a little 12 bit, the camera, did it have audio capabilities? 13 OFFICER THIELE: Yes. 14 MS. RUIZ: Once you were given all of 15 these items while you were in the vehicle, did you 16 return to the district station? 17 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, ma'am. 18 MS. RUIZ: And what did you do then? 19 OFFICER THIELE: Once we returned to the 20 District No. 2 Police Station, plugged the camera 21 into a computer and watched the video, watched the 22 transaction of what had occurred. As we did this, 23 I believe I personally inventoried the $20 bill 24 that was received from Officer Greer that he got 25 from the owner of John's Jewelry. After we 29 1 watched the video, the video was then downloaded 2 onto compact discs, or at least one disc, which 3 also was placed on MPD inventory, and then other 4 copies were made for our files. 5 MS. RUIZ: And you stated you observed 6 the video? 7 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, ma'am. 8 MS. RUIZ: Were you also on duty on 9 November 25, 2009, at approximately 10:05 a.m.? 10 OFFICER THIELE: Yes. 11 MS. RUIZ: What was the nature of your 12 assignment? 13 OFFICER THIELE: We were going to 14 execute a search warrant at John's Jewelry. 15 MS. RUIZ: And the reason for the search 16 warrant? 17 OFFICER THIELE: We had -- based upon my 18 training and experience and my participation in 19 this investigation, we had seen that some of the 20 businesses that were involved in our PM&G 21 investigation not only took our jewelry that we 22 sold to them in violation of state law and city 23 ordinance, but also were melting down our jewelry 24 prior to the 15-day required holding period. 25 I applied for a search warrant, and we 30 1 were granted a search warrant. We went into the 2 business with the search warrant to not only 3 recover the jewelry as proof that we had sold but 4 to find other acts of the violation of the city 5 ordinance. 6 MS. RUIZ: Did you -- what specifically 7 were you trying to -- or what were some of the 8 specific things you were trying to locate that 9 day? 10 OFFICER THIELE: Other gold and jewelry 11 that had been purchased by John's from somebody 12 else. We wanted all their books and ledgers, 13 which they are required by ordinance to keep, the 14 PP16As from these violations or from legitimate 15 sales also. 16 MS. RUIZ: Were you able to locate these 17 items? 18 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, ma'am. 19 MS. RUIZ: Were you also able to locate 20 the jewelry that Officer Greer had sold to John's 21 Jewelry? 22 OFFICER THIELE: Eventually, we did 23 locate it, yes. 24 MS. RUIZ: Were you able to locate other 25 evidence of other illegal transactions? 31 1 OFFICER THIELE: Yes ma'am. 2 MS. RUIZ: Approximately how many? 3 OFFICER THIELE: There were four other 4 illegal transactions. 5 MS. RUIZ: With regards to the PP16A, 6 could you please tell me what the purpose of that 7 form is? 8 OFFICER THIELE: The PP16A, as required 9 by ordinance, we give out as a police department 10 to licensed businesses such as pawn shops, 11 etcetera, in our city. If the PP16A is filled out 12 properly with an ID card and identification, it is 13 a tool that is used by the police department so 14 that we may attempt to track down pieces of 15 jewelry or other things that are pawned that's 16 been taken in burglaries, thefts, crimes, 17 etcetera, so that we can at least have a lead as 18 to who might have turned these items in or who 19 might have committed these burglaries, thefts or 20 other crimes. 21 MS. RUIZ: Based on your investigation, 22 were there -- do you recall in specific some 23 details of the other four illegal transactions? 24 OFFICER THIELE: Yes. The other four 25 transactions actually took us a little bit to 32 1 find, but we did find that the PP16As that were 2 filled out for those particular transactions were 3 stapled, the actual gold was stapled to the PP16A. 4 And the PP16A was not filled out properly. 5 MS. RUIZ: I have no further questions. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions by 7 committee? 8 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf. 10 MR. SCHRIMPF: What wasn't filled out 11 properly on the other PP16As? 12 OFFICER THIELE: There was no 13 identification card that had been taken. At least 14 that's what we could see because there was no 15 identification number of any kind written on the 16 PP16A. Some of the PP16As did not have an 17 accurate description, if any description, of the 18 gold or jewelry that had been purchased. And if 19 my memory serves me correctly, these four 20 transactions were not in his ledger book either. 21 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's all I have, Mr. 22 Chairman. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Officer, 24 question for you. 25 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, sir. 33 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Of the four alleged 2 illegal transactions, how many in his ledger -- do 3 you recall that -- the ledger book is actually 4 reporting a 15-day timeline, is that correct? 5 OFFICER THIELE: Well, sir, it all 6 depends on how long they want to keep their book 7 for, but, yes. Once they make a sale to the 8 general public, if they do everything properly and 9 they fill out the PP16A, that PP16A, which gets 10 turned over the police department, should 11 accurately reflect what the book says. So not 12 only that, sir, they are required by state law to 13 keep that book at least for a year. And it has to 14 be a permanently-bound book written in English, 15 which is in the ordinance, okay. So if I want to 16 investigate, or if I had the chance to investigate 17 a crime that occurred maybe three months ago, and 18 I know that the stuff had been turned into John's 19 Jewelry, in all honesty, I should be able to go 20 back and ask that person, "Can I see your books 21 from," let's say, "October?" And we should be 22 able to open that book and accurately see who he 23 made general purchase, general -- made purchases 24 from the general public from. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Of the four illegal 34 1 transactions, at least that are alleged by the 2 police department, how many overall would you say? 3 We're talking about four out of twenty, four out 4 of eight, four out of -- 5 OFFICER THIELE: All of the businesses 6 that we've dealt with have a very large amount of 7 customer base. I can't give you an actual number. 8 I would say probably 100, 150, maybe hundreds. I 9 know that from some of the other businesses that 10 we have been in, I mean, they literally have a 11 book for almost every week that they fill out now, 12 now, that they fill out. Because, I mean, people 13 are just selling gold like hot cakes to be honest 14 with you. It's amazing how much gold is being 15 sold. I can't give you an honest accurate answer. 16 I would say probably at least 100 maybe. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So he had approximately 18 100 bags of gold with the appropriate forms that 19 you felt were adequately responded to per the 20 ordinances with, as far as you could determine. 21 Is that a correct statement? 22 OFFICER THIELE: I guess I would 23 estimate someplace between 50 and 100. By law, 24 they are only allowed, they are only supposed to 25 keep it on hand in their business for 15 days. 35 1 Some places that we dealt with did keep things 2 longer than that 15-day period. So when we 3 executed our search warrants, there were some, 4 more gold at some places than at others. If my 5 memory serves me correctly, John's Jewelry had 6 just a tray approximately about this size. 7 MR. SCHRIMPF: For the record, can you 8 indicate what the size is? 9 OFFICER THIELE: Oh, sure, yes, sir. 10 Maybe about two feet long and eight inches wide, 11 maybe something to that effect, like a jewelry 12 tray. I would estimate that he had about 50 slips 13 in there. I believe somewhere between 50 and 100, 14 and we did find not only our stuff but for the 15 other four transactions buried in there. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: After you and your 17 partner had come back to the store, you -- and you 18 were making it known that this was part of the 19 investigation, was there any rationale that was 20 provided by Mr. Lee in terms of whether he 21 comports with the ordinances? Did he provide any 22 rationale to you in terms of the straw buy that 23 was attempted by the one officer? 24 OFFICER THIELE: I can comment on the 25 actual -- when we executed the search warrant, 36 1 when we went in with the search warrant, we shut 2 Mr. Lee's business down for the period that we 3 were in his business, okay. I read him the search 4 warrant, explained to him why we were there. And 5 I actually showed him the color photographs that 6 we had taken of the jewelry before we sold it. 7 And I explained to him that I wanted this 8 particular ring, I wanted to see it, because we 9 were within the 15-day holding period. So Mr. Lee 10 did go into his vault or his safe, and he did 11 bring out that particular piece of gold, the ring, 12 the stars-and-moon ring that we sold him. When I 13 asked Mr. Lee why he took this without an ID card, 14 at first he denied it until we showed him the 15 still photographs that we took from the undercover 16 camera that showed him and his female employee 17 involved in this transaction. And the only thing 18 that Mr. Lee could say was that he was sorry. And 19 when I ask him again why he took this gold without 20 -- I mean, he actually did keep semi-decent books 21 and whatnot, okay. But when he took this piece of 22 gold without an ID card, I ask him why, he told me 23 that the particular person that he bought it from 24 owed him money. Well, at that point I told Mr. 25 Lee, I said, "Well, that's impossible, sir." I 37 1 said, "The person that sold this to you is an 2 undercover police officer, and we have the 3 transaction on camera." The only thing that he 4 could say, sir, was that he was sorry, that's it. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. And those are 6 points that are alleged in the complaint, that are 7 outlined in the complaint. Any other questions by 8 committee? 9 Mr. Park, were there any questions that 10 you have of this officer? 11 MR. LEE: Yes, I'm not defending here 12 that, but under-detective came twice, and I just 13 bought only one. That one I'm sure. That just do 14 not -- first time we denied it, we need an ID, and 15 he just tried to come attempting at closing time. 16 I thought I pity him, really I pity him. "Ah," he 17 say, "One small, one broken ring, ah." Really, he 18 need the money. I took. That's why. I pity him. 19 That's why I give him $20. And other ones, other 20 items, I just collect them anyway to ten days. 21 I'm -- anyone I do not take outside the box. And 22 the police officer, they found the four items in 23 the holding box, 15-day holding box. And other 24 three items, we just traded, traded to some 25 customer want, some customer wanted the older 38 1 jewelry that's traded, that's the jewelry. And I 2 just only one time really that the broken ring. 3 And he doesn't bring -- after that day, he doesn't 4 bring in anything. And I just found only one 5 item, but the police department wanted the six or 6 seven items, give me this part. And the police 7 department, they just search the whole building, 8 even the basement, and even any pile of documents, 9 anything. Any pile, they search in it. Finally, 10 I ask, "What are you looking for," and they say, 11 the police officer say, "I'm looking for other 12 items." And, "I do not have any. I do not buy 13 that." And they take the signature dates, and at 14 the time, I'm really -- when they came, I'm 15 scared. And if they just -- all of my office, 16 anyplace and two officers came, one officer is 17 searching. And finally, the other officer is 18 searching also. And I'm so scared. Finally, the 19 officer said, "I need to sign 11 citations." 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Lee, could you 21 clarify, you indicated the other three items were 22 exchanged from a customer. 23 MR. LEE: Yes. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: What did you mean by 25 "exchanged"? Somebody came in said, "Here's an 39 1 old ring I have, I like that one there. Can I 2 exchange this for that"? 3 MR. LEE: Yes, we just waited, make 4 other price and make this price that one, new 5 items, and just make a price. We'll give you 6 credit, something like that. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Now -- thank you. If I 8 may, for the officer, if I came in and wanted to 9 -- I guess, what he's getting into is the 10 equivalent of, if I'm buying a car, selling, 11 bringing in my old car and using that as a down 12 payment toward a new car. If I were to do that, I 13 still would have to comport with the same 14 ordinances as if I were just selling the ring. Is 15 that your understanding, would that be correct? 16 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, sir. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Did you understand that 18 here, Mr. Lee? What I want to say is, if I take 19 my ring, if I wanted to just sell you gold, my 20 rings off my fingers, you are required to go 21 through the procedure of the photo identification, 22 and/or if I don't have that, something that 23 documents my name with the fingerprints, document 24 the -- and hold on to these gold rings. Whether I 25 just make an outright sell to you, or let's say I 40 1 want to come in and offer these two gold rings and 2 use it, use the money that I would get that you're 3 willing to offer me for these gold rings to also 4 purchase something from you, whether I do that or 5 just outright sell it to you, you are required to 6 take the very same documentation and hold on to it 7 either way. Were you aware of that? Are you 8 aware that if I want to make an exchange that you 9 still must hold on and have the documentation? 10 MR. LEE: When I buy that, buy that, I 11 just give them their money back. At the time, I'm 12 sure that there mistakes, my mistake. But traded, 13 traded, I don't misunderstand, I misunderstand, I 14 misunderstood. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: In terms of individuals 16 that come in, are the vast majority of persons 17 coming in just to sell jewelry? Is it -- I guess, 18 what I'm asking is, an individual who would make a 19 trade, take in some ring, hand it to you, have you 20 give them $20 and then buy a $50 ring in exchange? 21 Is that something that happens very rarely? Does 22 that happen fairly often? 23 MR. LEE: No, not much. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So the vast majority of 25 your transactions are outright sales where 41 1 somebody is just bringing gold in or jewelry in 2 and selling it to you? 3 MR. LEE: Ordinarily, when you brought 4 the broken jewelry, they, customer bring in, and 5 we give you not much value for that because -- no, 6 very rare. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, thank you. Were 8 there any other questions that either one of you 9 raise of the officer's testimony here? 10 MR. PARK: At this time, no. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Thank you. 12 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chair. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf. 14 MR. SCHRIMPF: First, for the officer, 15 you checked into a total of four transactions or a 16 total of five? There was the one that was the 17 undercover officer, and then how many in addition? 18 OFFICER THIELE: Four. 19 MR. SCHRIMPF: Four in addition. So 20 there is a total of five transactions? 21 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, I believe so, 22 there was five. 23 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Lee. 24 MR. LEE: Yes. 25 MR. SCHRIMPF: On the transactions other 42 1 than the ring, apparently there was a ring that 2 was broken and that was what the officer brought 3 in to you, and that's what you bought, okay. As 4 to the other four transactions, you said these 5 were exchanges -- 6 MR. LEE: Other three, three, other 7 three. 8 MR. SCHRIMPF: There were other three. 9 OFFICER THIELE: Mr. Schrimpf. 10 MR. LEE: Four items, four items in 11 total, but one is that I purchased by detective, 12 and the three items, I trade. 13 OFFICER THIELE: He's correct. After 14 reviewing my report, I was one off. There was our 15 undercover investigation and three others. So it 16 would make a total of four, not five, and I 17 apologize. 18 MR. SCHRIMPF: Okay. I just wanted to 19 get that straight. Now, Mr. Lee, as to the other 20 three transactions, the one that did not come -- 21 the ones that did not come from the police 22 officer -- 23 MR. LEE: No. 24 MR. SCHRIMPF: The other three 25 transactions. 43 1 MR. LEE: No. 2 MR. SCHRIMPF: Were these -- 3 MR. LEE: But I just hold them more than 4 15 days out of date. I just still hold. 5 MR. SCHRIMPF: Yes, I -- 6 MR. LEE: Yeah, and, but even they just 7 no mark it under my file book, signature book, and 8 they even took it also. 9 MR. SCHRIMPF: As to those other three 10 transactions, were those items that you sold to 11 the persons originally? 12 MR. LEE: We traded. Before this, I do 13 not sell them that already-broken jewelry, just 14 brought the broken jewelry, something like that, 15 or used jewelry. 16 MR. SCHRIMPF: Okay. So the other three 17 were broken or were used jewelry -- 18 MR. LEE: Yes. 19 MR. SCHRIMPF: -- and it did not 20 originally come through your store? 21 MR. LEE: No. 22 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's all I have. 23 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Mr. Chair. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Hamilton. 25 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: This question is for 44 1 the officer as well. You testified earlier that 2 John's Jewelry came on the radar screen because of 3 interviews with suspects that were arrested for 4 burglary, and they said they were able to unload 5 material at this location. Is that correct? 6 OFFICER THIELE: At several of the 7 locations. 8 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: At several of the 9 locations, this being one of them? 10 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, sir. 11 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Were any of the 12 violations that you found connected to any other 13 crimes? 14 OFFICER THIELE: No. 15 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Not the violations 16 that you found? 17 OFFICER THIELE: That is correct. Short 18 of the one that we did, sir, the undercover deal. 19 The other three that are in question here, we did 20 not, we were not able to link to another burglary 21 or theft or crime. 22 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: All right. That is 23 it, Mr. Chair. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Thank you, 25 officer. Ms. Ruiz, do you wish to continue? 45 1 MS. RUIZ: I'd like to call Officer 2 Christopher Greer. And if at this point, Channel 3 25 can please not catch him on camera. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The request from Channel 5 -- the request is -- you want to hold on Officer, 6 hold on here. Do you want to make a call into 7 Channel 25 here and ask them to at least -- 8 MS. RUIZ: They are aware. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So that they can focus 10 the camera on you in terms of your questioning and 11 we can get him audibly here. 12 MS. RUIZ: Right. And he will be 13 standing over here, which they said was the best. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. That's fine. 15 All right. I guess they are going to keep the 16 camera on me. I better not do any funny business 17 here. 18 Good morning, Officer. You were in the 19 room, were you sworn in? 20 OFFICER GREER: Yes, I was. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If you could, just state 22 your name and your position with the police 23 department, please? 24 OFFICER GREER: Christopher Greer, and 25 I'm a Milwaukee police officer, City of Milwaukee. 46 1 MS. RUIZ: Okay. How long have you been 2 so employed? 3 OFFICER GREER: Nine years. 4 MS. RUIZ: And were you on duty on 5 November 11, 2009, at approximate 8:00 a.m. in the 6 morning? 7 OFFICER GREER: Yes, ma'am. 8 MS. RUIZ: Where were you located at at 9 that time? 10 OFFICER GREER: District 2. 11 MS. RUIZ: And what was the nature of 12 your assignment? 13 OFFICER GREER: To assist officers in an 14 undercover operation. 15 MS. RUIZ: How did you prepare for that 16 investigation? 17 OFFICER GREER: I was told to dress in 18 regular attire and come to District 2 and just 19 assist officers with whatever they needed. 20 MS. RUIZ: What materials were you given 21 in preparation of the investigation? 22 OFFICER GREER: I was given several 23 pieces of precious metals and a small undercover 24 camera. 25 MS. RUIZ: Did you know how to use that 47 1 camera? 2 OFFICER GREER: At the time, no, but I 3 was taught how to use it. 4 MS. RUIZ: And when you were given the 5 camera, was that camera empty? 6 OFFICER GREER: Yes, it was. 7 MS. RUIZ: And what did you do once you 8 were ready to continue with the investigation and 9 about to leave the district station? 10 OFFICER GREER: I grabbed the precious 11 metals, placed them in my pocket, grabbed the 12 camera, and me and the other officers got in a 13 vehicle and drove to the location that we needed 14 to go to. 15 MS. RUIZ: And what -- did you in 16 particular go to John's Jewelry? 17 OFFICER GREER: Yes. 18 MS. RUIZ: Were is that located? 19 OFFICER GREER: 1119 West Mitchell. 20 MS. RUIZ: In the City of Milwaukee? 21 OFFICER GREER: In the City of 22 Milwaukee. 23 MS. RUIZ: And what did you do once you 24 arrived? 25 OFFICER GREER: Once we arrived, I got 48 1 out of our vehicle, I walked across the street to 2 John's Jewelry, and I proceeded to sell jewelry to 3 John's. 4 MS. RUIZ: Okay. Initially when you 5 walked in, was -- did they -- what was some of the 6 jewelry that you tried to sell? 7 OFFICER GREER: I had seven rings, two 8 watches, a Pioneer stereo and a broken bracelet. 9 MS. RUIZ: Okay, and were any of those 10 items sold to John's Jewelry? 11 OFFICER GREER: Yes, I believe a ring 12 with a star on it. 13 MS. RUIZ: How much did they give you 14 for the item? 15 OFFICER GREER: $20, American currency. 16 MS. RUIZ: Were you asked for 17 identification? 18 OFFICER GREER: Yes, I was. 19 MS. RUIZ: Did you provide 20 identification? 21 OFFICER GREER: No. 22 MS. RUIZ: What specifically did you say 23 when you were asked for identification? 24 OFFICER GREER: I didn't have any. 25 MS. RUIZ: Were you asked to fill out a 49 1 PP16A? 2 OFFICER GREER: Yes, ma'am. 3 MS. RUIZ: And did you completely fill 4 out that form? 5 OFFICER GREER: No. 6 MS. RUIZ: Were you asked to fill out a 7 written declaration of ownership? 8 OFFICER GREER: Would that be the PP -- 9 would that be that slip? 10 MS. RUIZ: Were you asked to sign 11 anything other than the PP16A slip? 12 OFFICER GREER: I believe possibly the 13 receipt. 14 MS. RUIZ: And what did you do after you 15 left the store? 16 OFFICER GREER: I went to our 17 predetermined meet spot and got back in our 18 vehicle. 19 MS. RUIZ: What did you do with the 20 items that you had? 21 OFFICER GREER: The remaining items I 22 had I gave back to the officers, and the camera I 23 also gave back to the officers, and I gave them 24 the $20 and I believe the jewelry. 25 MS. RUIZ: And then did you go back to 50 1 the district station? 2 OFFICER GREER: Yes, we did. 3 MS. RUIZ: And was the evidence 4 inventoried? 5 OFFICER GREER: Yes. 6 MS. RUIZ: And what -- did you download 7 the video on the camera? 8 OFFICER GREER: I didn't personally 9 download the videotape, the other officers did. 10 MS. RUIZ: Did you observe that video? 11 OFFICER GREER: I did observe that. 12 MS. RUIZ: At this time, I'd like to 13 play the video. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Let me -- why don't we 15 first see, are there any questions by committee of 16 Officer Greer? 17 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf. 19 MR. SCHRIMPF: Officer, just so that I 20 have this straight in my mind. You sold to John's 21 Jewelers the one ring? 22 OFFICER GREER: Yes, I attempted to sell 23 all the rings, but I guess the others weren't real 24 gold. 25 MR. SCHRIMPF: Okay. And as I 51 1 understand it, you were filling out the PP16A and 2 you filled it out partially? 3 OFFICER GREER: (Nods head.) 4 MR. SCHRIMPF: You have to answer 5 verbally. 6 OFFICER GREER: Yes. 7 MR. SCHRIMPF: And you did not include 8 your name? 9 OFFICER GREER: I just put a name off 10 the top of my head on there. 11 MR. SCHRIMPF: Okay. And as I 12 understand it, Mr. Lee did ask for identification, 13 is that correct? 14 OFFICER GREER: Yes, he did. 15 MR. SCHRIMPF: And you simply said you 16 didn't have any? 17 OFFICER GREER: Yes. 18 MR. SCHRIMPF: And the transaction went 19 forward? 20 OFFICER GREER: Yes, it did. 21 MR. SCHRIMPF: And then as to the 22 statement of ownership, I'm confused by your 23 testimony, did you fill that out or not? 24 OFFICER GREER: If that's the slip I 25 filled out, then that's correct. I didn't fill 52 1 anything else out. 2 MR. SCHRIMPF: Did you under -- did you 3 -- you partially filled out the 16A? 4 OFFICER GREER: Yes. 5 MR. SCHRIMPF: What did you put onto 6 that form? 7 OFFICER GREER: Fake address, a fake 8 name, and I believe a fake phone number. 9 MR. SCHRIMPF: And a fake what? 10 OFFICER GREER: Phone number. 11 MR. SCHRIMPF: And that was it? 12 OFFICER GREER: That was it. 13 MR. SCHRIMPF: And you didn't fill out 14 any other information on any other document? 15 OFFICER GREER: Not that I can recall. 16 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's all I have. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf, before we 18 proceed with any videotape, I -- first off, I want 19 to provide you, do you have any questions of this 20 officer, Mr. Lee, Mr. Park? 21 MR. LEE: He came -- I just, the first 22 time -- he came twice, and the first time 3:00, 23 something like 3:00, I'm not exactly, but around 24 3:00, and he came. But the second time he came 25 he, "Oh," he needed, really needed money. That's 53 1 why without the money, he just asked me once 2 again. I really -- without the ID, I knew that he 3 has no ID. And we just asked the first time 4 that's why without the ID, we do not buy. But 5 second time, I pity him, really pity him. And the 6 officer ask here, "Why do you buy the items," 7 needed the money, that's why I just give it. And 8 the first time, that's why, "Oh," he asked, "Do 9 you know it's illegal without the ID just to buy?" 10 Yeah, I just sorry, I'm just sorry to the officer. 11 But at the time, I did it. But really, the first 12 time that he tried to twice came, second time, 13 really I pity him. I'm good person, really. I 14 just donated, I donated church and Red Cross, I 15 do, really I do. Honestly, I'm pity him. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Lee, were you aware 17 that you could have taken some alternative form of 18 identification and fingerprinted him as a 19 customer? 20 MR. LEE: At the time, I never knew that 21 the fingerprint. The police officers came and 22 they just teach me this regulation, and without 23 the ID at the time, we needed fingerprint, the 24 right index finger. At the time, I just purchased 25 plating and ink pad. And I just read that several 54 1 times, this regulation book. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So you were not aware of 3 that at the time? 4 MR. LEE: Before, I'm not really -- I 5 just police, police department said you have to 6 check the ID, and I just knew that, but -- I 7 without the ID, I need fingerprint. After that 8 day, I need fingerprint. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: After that day. You 10 were not aware before? 11 MR. LEE: Before I do not know that. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Were there 13 any other questions that you wanted to pose here 14 in terms of the officer's testimony? 15 MR. PARK: No, thank you. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Follow-up question, 17 Alderman Kovac. 18 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So this gentleman 19 standing here came into your store twice? 20 MR. LEE: Yes. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: How much time between 22 the two visits? 23 MR. LEE: I just -- not much -- no 24 customer, no customer, that's why I remember him, 25 and the afternoon he came. And finally, we 55 1 closing time, or closing time, at the time, he 2 just one more try to sell. 3 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So on the same day -- 4 MR. LEE: Same day. 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: -- he came in twice? 6 MR. LEE: Yes. 7 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And the first time, you 8 wouldn't buy? 9 MR. LEE: First time? 10 ALDERMAN KOVAC: The first time you 11 didn't buy anything? 12 MR. LEE: No, I asked that we need ID, 13 but we just at the time before, I just -- before 14 we just make the deal, I make a price and the 15 customer wanted, at the time I asked the ID. 16 But right now, I -- we just changed it, 17 "Do you have a" -- if customer want to sell them 18 gold, "do you have an ID?" I check the ID first, 19 and then -- 20 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Do you recall that he 21 had several pieces of jewelry, like seven 22 different rings? 23 MR. LEE: No, I just only buy the broken 24 one ring. Honestly, more than that I purchase, I 25 fined with the legal license, I'm sure. 56 1 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So you only, you 2 consciously only bought one? 3 MR. LEE: Only one. 4 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Why? 5 MR. LEE: Only one ring, and he just 6 bring the watches. I'm not sure -- the first time 7 he bring the watches, he showed the watches, but 8 we do not buy the old watches. I just want to buy 9 the ring. 10 ALDERMAN KOVAC: You didn't want the 11 watches? 12 MR. LEE: No. 13 ALDERMAN KOVAC: How did you come up 14 with a $20 price? 15 MR. LEE: We just weighed on -- I'm not 16 sure of the weight, but 2.0 that I make a 17 calibrated ten times, so $20. 18 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So it came to 20? 19 MR. LEE: Yes. 20 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 21 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Mr. Chair. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Alderman 23 Hamilton. 24 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Did you do, did you 25 go through that process with the other rings? Did 57 1 you test the other rings? 2 MR. LEE: Which other rings? 3 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: The other rings that 4 the -- 5 MR. LEE: The broken ones that the 6 officer bring in, that one ring. 7 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Right. 8 MR. LEE: Yeah, I purchased that ring. 9 We just -- 10 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: No, not the ring 11 that you purchased, the other -- there were other 12 rings. 13 MR. LEE: Oh, no. 14 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Did you measure 15 them, did you test them? 16 MR. LEE: No. I never saw that. No, 17 other ones, I do not saw another one. I just saw 18 the only one ring, I just saw the only one ring. 19 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Mr. Chair, I think I 20 would want the police to just respond to whether 21 or not he came in twice and what the situation 22 was. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Officer Greer, could you 24 answer that question in terms of whether or not 25 you showed up at Mr. Lee's store twice on that 58 1 particular day? 2 OFFICER GREER: No. I only appeared in 3 the store once. 4 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 5 MS. RUIZ: What time? 6 OFFICER GREER: Around 3:00. 7 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderwoman Coggs. 9 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Earlier you stated 10 that he didn't purchase the other jewelry because 11 it wasn't real gold. How did you know that it 12 wasn't real gold? 13 OFFICER GREER: That's what his female 14 employee said, and that they didn't buy watches. 15 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. Did they 16 test it? 17 OFFICER GREER: She just looked at it. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So it was the one 19 occasion, you did present more than the one ring 20 that Mr. Lee purchased? 21 OFFICER GREER: Yes. When I walked into 22 the store, I presented everything I had, except 23 for the radio. The radio I presented last. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right, thank you. 25 Any other follow-up questions? 59 1 Mr. Schrimpf, I do have one question for 2 you here regarding the next piece of evidence here 3 that the city attorney's office seeks to submit. 4 First and foremost, there are 21 points 5 in the complaint here alleged against Mr. Lee, is 6 the videotape spelled out in the complaint. 7 MS. RUIZ: The video, yes, because 8 it's -- 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: At what point would that 10 be in? I know it's discussed that a videotape was 11 made. 12 MS. RUIZ: Right. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The other question I 14 would have for you, Ms. Ruiz, was a copy of that, 15 of what you are attempting to show here, provided 16 to Mr. Lee with the complaint? 17 MS. RUIZ: I spoke with the attorney who 18 says that he is representing Mr. Lee on the 19 citations. He told me that he was not sure that 20 he was going to be representing him during the 21 licensing hearing and that he would probably be 22 referring him to somebody else. I told him I had 23 video that I wanted to give a copy to the attorney 24 that would be here today representing Mr. Lee. 25 That was, I believe, on the 13th of January. Then 60 1 I called him again on Friday the 16th, I believe 2 it was the 16th. I tried calling that attorney 3 again, left him a message stating that I wanted to 4 know if he was going to be here today and that I 5 did have a copy of the video to give him. 6 Because Mr. Lee is represented, I cannot 7 talk to him without his attorney present. His 8 attorney did not contact me back after I left a 9 message for him on Friday. So there were attempts 10 made to give the defendant a copy of the video 11 before today. 12 I can say that the video is pretty 13 short. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, let me just ask 15 this much, it was Mr. Lee that was served with the 16 complaint, is that correct? 17 MS. RUIZ: I believe so. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Why would not the 19 evidence, including the tape, have been submitted 20 to him at that time? I mean, wouldn't that be a 21 logical time to say, "Here is the complaint and 22 here is going to be Tape A that's going to you and 23 could be used against you." I don't know. I'm 24 asking that question to you. Would that be 25 something that logically would fall in how 61 1 business is handled? 2 MS. RUIZ: I -- 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Because even that 4 evidence still would have to comport with a 5 timeline. You can't call somebody six hours 6 before, four hours before, and reach him last 7 night and say, "Hey, it may be 9:00, but here's 8 the tape, prepare for tomorrow." 9 I'm going to rule that any videotape 10 evidence that was not adequately provided to the 11 applicant here and rule it out of order for this 12 hearing. 13 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf, do you -- 15 MR. SCHRIMPF: That is within the 16 purview of the chair. I'm not sure that -- just 17 so that we're clear here, Mr. Chairman, I'm not 18 sure that if there is a piece of evidence that 19 substantiates some of the alligations of the 20 complaint that that necessarily has to be served 21 on the licensee ahead of time, but if that's the 22 ruling of the chair -- 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We have actually, Mr. 24 Schrimpf, the issue is we have actually had this 25 issue addressed with previous cases here before 62 1 this committee in which even the city attorney's 2 office has been aware and has not utilized 3 videotapes that were not adequately and duly 4 provided in terms of timely notice to the 5 applicants. To me, the problem is, is I think the 6 city attorney's office is fully aware of that, and 7 whether or not we're getting into this difficult 8 quagmire of "I tried to reach them," I think 9 clearly, the city attorney's office, based on Ms. 10 Ruiz's own statements here, indicated a knowledge 11 that it was appropriate to provide them. 12 MS. RUIZ: And we -- Mr. Chairman -- 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: But you know what the 14 problem is? If you went before a court of law, I 15 don't think any judge would allow you, 16 unfortunately -- 17 MS. RUIZ: It would have to ask for 18 discovery. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If I may finish, please, 20 okay, please. I don't believe any judge would 21 allow you to utilize that evidence based on your 22 good faith "I attempted." I think the judge would 23 toss that out, and utterly not let you use that. 24 I don't believe that. 25 MS. RUIZ: And if I may respond to that. 63 1 During -- if there were a court proceeding, a 2 defendant would get notice of a hearing. However, 3 if they wanted evidence of -- they would ask for 4 a, for discovery. And in civil proceedings and in 5 municipal court there is no right to discovery. 6 My attempt to give the video to the defendant was 7 mostly based out of courtesy and me wanting them 8 to have it, but they did not, they were not 9 entitled to it. They did not ask for it. And I 10 do believe that during a court proceeding, they 11 would have received notice like they did from the 12 licensing investigation unit. And that if they 13 wanted anything further that they should have, 14 they could have asked for discovery. But I don't 15 think that is something that can be handed over to 16 the defendant during the time that he has been 17 given notice of the hearing. I think those are 18 two separate things and two separate procedures. 19 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderwoman Coggs. 21 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Is the attorney 22 present representing the applicant the same 23 attorney that you communicated with? 24 MS. RUIZ: No. I believe that attorney 25 must have decided that he was not going to 64 1 represent him during this hearing. 2 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderwoman Coggs. 4 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: For the applicant's 5 attorney. 6 MR. PARK: Yes. 7 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: When did you become 8 the attorney for this applicant? 9 MR. PARK: Actually, yesterday. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 11 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Mr. Chair. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: But -- and the question 13 remains, how his attorney could have been 14 adequately noticed, albeit what you can do is you 15 serve the applicant with the complaint and you 16 serve him with the evidence and allow him to find 17 another attorney and say here, they are all 18 utilizing this, this is what I received, and this 19 is the videotape that they're going to be able to 20 utilize. 21 Now, whether the individual applicant, 22 Mr. Lee in this case here, chooses to wait until 23 the last minute to hire an attorney, or the minute 24 he gets it he gets on the phone, is up to him. 25 Albeit anything that is evidence and may be used 65 1 against him, it is duly in his hand and the burden 2 is on him then to be able to find somebody to 3 provide that. Are there any other questions or 4 comments here? 5 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Mr. Chair. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Hamilton. 7 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: We have some 8 slightly different presentations of what happened 9 at the counter at the store. I think if the 10 applicant doesn't have any objection to the video 11 being shown, I think maybe we should watch it and, 12 you know, take any information that may be, you 13 know, that may be gleaned from it. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. That's -- 15 essentially they can choose to waive notice in 16 that regard. 17 The request is, do you, Mr. Park, Mr. 18 Lee, do you have objection to the video footage 19 being shown here at this time? 20 MR. PARK: Object, yes. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You do object. 22 MR. PARK: Yes. 23 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac. 25 ALDERMAN KOVAC: From what I understand 66 1 from both attorneys present here, both city 2 attorneys, they can object, but I don't think they 3 formally had to be given notice. They were 4 informed of the charges, the video provides 5 clarification, provides this committee with 6 clarification over which version of these stories 7 and which combination of these versions of stories 8 is correct. I think it's in the committee's 9 interest to see this video, and I don't think we 10 are violating his rights to see it even if he 11 objects. I'd like to see it. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. And what I will 13 just tell the committee is my decision is my 14 rendered decision. The committee does have the 15 ability to overrule. If you do wish to make a 16 motion that -- 17 ALDERMAN KOVAC: I'd like to make that 18 motion. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. The motion by 20 Alderman Kovac would be that the video evidence be 21 admitted, the video evidence of Ms. Ruiz be 22 admitted to the record and be played here at the 23 hearing. Are there objections to that motion 24 other than my own? Hearing none, that would be so 25 ordered. So ultimately, the committee's decision 67 1 is to include the video evidence here. 2 Then Alderman Kovac would move to 3 include the -- do you have -- this on a DVD disc? 4 Is this something that you can provide copy to the 5 committee for our record here? 6 MS. RUIZ: I could give you a copy. I 7 do have an extra copy for you, and actually, I do 8 have another one that I can give out to the 9 defendant. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Please do that. 11 And we'll have Alderman Kovac move to make a copy 12 of -- and then what I would just ask you, is the 13 copy that you will be providing to the defendant 14 and to the committee is an identical copy of that 15 what you will be playing here? 16 MS. RUIZ: Yes. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Alderman Kovac 18 would move then to accept the video copy provided 19 by Ms. Ruiz of Officer Greer's entrance into Mr. 20 Lee's business as part of our permanent record in 21 this hearing, and hearing one objection, my own, 22 are there any other objections? So ordered. 23 Okay. 24 All right. Ms. Ruiz, why don't you 25 proceed forward here. You will have the ability, 68 1 Mr. Park, to raise any questions if you so desire. 2 Is this something that we have to play -- let me 3 just ask, at this point here -- 4 MS. RUIZ: I have it all set up, all 5 ready to play. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm assuming that there 7 it is still possible that Officer Greer, that 8 there may be some questions that are raised of him 9 based on what we see here, so if you just wish to 10 have a seat here. Thank you. Okay, if you want 11 to just play it then. 12 MS. RUIZ: This is your copy. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Now, here is the 14 question in terms of for Channel 25, is Officer 15 Greer, is in this video, so is it something that 16 we also would not want Channel 25 to cover, is 17 that right? 18 MS. RUIZ: No, his face is not on the 19 video. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: His face is not, so it's 21 just actually a camera that would have been on his 22 person actually showing the applicant present 23 here? 24 MS. RUIZ: Correct. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Please, proceed. 69 1 Ms. Ruiz, how long a portion do you wish to show 2 here approximately? 3 MS. RUIZ: The entire tape, I don't 4 think, takes more than five minutes. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: That's fine. 6 (Videotape being shown.) 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are there questions 8 committee members have? 9 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chair. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf. 11 MR. SCHRIMPF: Is the police department 12 aware of the fact that the clock in the video 13 shows 3:07 and the report says slightly after 14 3:00, and that's all the testimony was, but that 15 the clock on the video shows March 21, 2009, at 16 04:30? 17 OFFICER THIELE: I can answer that. We 18 attempted -- 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Officer -- and if you 20 could again just state your name? 21 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, sir. Officer 22 Jeffrey Thiele. I can answer that question for 23 you, sir. When we did pick up the camera from 24 HIDTA, we did speak with the technical officer 25 about that, the fact that the time and date were 70 1 wrong. He did try to change it about ten times, 2 the computer would not allow him to do that. We 3 had no choice but to take what -- you know, 4 beggars can't be choosers, we had to take what we 5 could get. We -- after my partner, Officer 6 Podlosick, and I had ourselves figured out how to 7 accurately change the time and date, and we, when 8 we gave it back to HIDTA after using if for a 9 second time, we gave it back to them with the 10 proper date and time changed to accurately reflect 11 2010. But, yes, we were aware of the. There was 12 nothing else we could do about that. 13 MR. SCHRIMPF: And for the record, HIDTA 14 is "High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area"? 15 OFFICER THIELE: Yes. Yes, sir. 16 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's all I have. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Officer, how did you 18 account for the -- you noticed the discrepancy in 19 whatever it may be, if it was off an hour, 20 hour-and-a-half in terms of the rough estimate of 21 time as to when Officer Greer entered and then 22 left the establishment, is that correct? 23 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, sir. I can answer 24 that also. If you take a look at the video, the 25 time and date are way off, okay. We did our 71 1 operation in November of '09. If you look at the 2 video, I believe it said March of '09. What we 3 did is -- as I explained before, when we dropped 4 off Officer Greer, my partner and I drove to a 5 position of surveillance where we could watch him 6 walk into the building, okay. When he walked into 7 the building at 3:07 p.m., I wrote in my memo 8 book, "In, 3:07 p.m." When he exited the 9 building, he exited at 3:14 p.m., I wrote in my 10 book, "3:14 p.m." So we knew exactly what time he 11 went in, how long he had been in and when he 12 exited. And we did that not only for our own 13 recourse but because we knew that the videocamera 14 was way, way off. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Very good. Thank you 16 for explaining that. Were there any questions, 17 Mr. Park, Mr. Lee, that you have of the videotape 18 or anything surrounding that? 19 MR. PARK: No. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No questions. Mr. Lee, 21 now do you believe that this officer here came 22 twice -- 23 MR. LEE: No. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- no, Officer Greer. 25 Or is your recollection hazy here? Are you 72 1 indicating now, do you still believe he came into 2 your store twice? 3 MR. LEE: The first time, first time, I 4 just, I don't want to buy. I just remember same 5 broken ring. And finally, I buy the broken ring. 6 The first time I just denied it, and second time, 7 I remember, second time I purchased it. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Now, you indicated in 9 your testimony that you recall the officer making, 10 pleading that he really needed the money. I will 11 grant you that there was an expressed willingness 12 on the videotape to take $10. I didn't seem to 13 hear this major plea of, "Hey, I need money. I'm 14 in hardship. My kids aren't eating and are at 15 home, I need the ten bucks to buy McDonald's for 16 them." What do you say in terms of your mindset 17 here now in seeing that video as to why you 18 decided to sell that ring, or why you decided to 19 buy that ring? Because what I want to preface 20 that by saying is that it seemed that your 21 employee was doing everything right saying that 22 even with the individual here, the officer, really 23 pushing it and saying, "Hey, I came all the way 24 from the north side, long way to drive. I don't 25 have the ID. All right, I'll take half of that 73 1 money." It seemed as though your employee was 2 doing all the right things. What was your mindset 3 that you went through the transaction and then 4 actually purchased the ring? 5 MR. LEE: I thought like that, but I 6 thought like that, but video, this video is true. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't want to put 8 words in your mouth, it does come with judgment, 9 would you just say it was a lapse in judgment? If 10 you can accurately translate that. 11 MR. LEE: Yeah, before I'm not sure; but 12 now, sure. I saw that after watched video. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Thank you. 14 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Mr. Chair. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Hamilton. 16 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: How often would you 17 say that you did transactions like that, where 18 they would come in and, you know, they wouldn't 19 have an ID and you would intervene? Because it 20 doesn't seem like your employees would do it. 21 MR. LEE: Not much. We just 22 conversation inside the room. We just 23 conversation inside the room, and my employee and 24 me, and she bring inside, and he has no ID. 25 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: How often do you 74 1 think in a typical day you would run into 2 situations like that? 3 MR. LEE: No. 4 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: I mean, how often. 5 MR. LEE: Most -- no. 6 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Never? I mean, 7 obviously, it happened at least four times. I'm 8 just saying, you know, did you -- 9 MR. LEE: The other, the other three are 10 traded, and the first only that the broken ring, 11 yeah, we purchased. Other three -- 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I think Alderman, I 13 mean, he indicated the other three were on part of 14 a trade, and I don't know if he had an 15 understanding that the ordinance applied even to a 16 trade as to an outright purchase of items. I know 17 he indicated he wasn't aware of the fingerprinting 18 provision prior to this incident here. 19 MS. RUIZ: Mr. Chair. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Ms Ruiz, just -- I just 21 want to make certain, did you have any other 22 questions regarding the videotape? 23 MR. PARK: No. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No. Okay, thank you. 25 Ms. Ruiz, please proceed. 75 1 MS. RUIZ: I just think it's important 2 for the record for me to ask Officer Greer that 3 the video was an accurate description of what 4 happened that day, just for the record. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And then if Channel 25 6 can stay on me -- go ahead Officer Greer. 7 OFFICER GREER: That is correct. 8 MS. RUIZ: So the video that we just 9 showed was an accurate depiction of what happened 10 on November 11th -- 11 OFFICER GREER: Yes, ma'am. 12 MS. RUIZ: -- at approximate 3:07 p.m.? 13 OFFICER GREER: Yes, ma'am. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, thank you. Did 15 you have any other questions for this officer, Mr. 16 Park or Mr. Lee? 17 MR. PARK: No. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Any other questions by 19 committee of this officer? The video can stay on 20 me. Are you finished with him then, Ms. Ruiz? 21 MS. RUIZ: I am finished. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Officer, for 23 your time here. You want to actually have the 24 video on me here, or how about Alderwoman Coggs, 25 she's much prettier. 76 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: And younger. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And younger, of course. 3 Ms. Ruiz, if you just want to proceed forward. 4 Was there anything else that you wish to present? 5 MS. RUIZ: Based on -- I do have a 6 follow-up question here based on what Mr. Lee has 7 just stated with regards to just being four 8 transactions. And I actually think officers, 9 Officer Thiele could clarify the question that I 10 have a little bit, and that would be, when you 11 arrived at the store, the only thing that you 12 found was jewelry for the past how many days? 13 OFFICER THIELE: We asked him for the 14 jewelry for the last 15 days. He brought out the 15 tray, as I had explained to you before, and 16 that's -- 17 MS. RUIZ: But that's for the 15 days. 18 So that does not account for any jewelry that was 19 taken in prior to those 15 days? 20 OFFICER THIELE: That is correct. 21 MS. RUIZ: What do some of the jewelry 22 store owners do when -- after the 15-day period 23 with the jewelry? 24 OFFICER THIELE: After the 15-day 25 period, which is required by the ordinance, they 77 1 can do with it what they want. Most of the places 2 that we investigated, we found at least three of 3 the other businesses dealt with a company out of 4 Chicago, and it got melted. 5 MS. RUIZ: And in your search of the 6 John's Jewelry store, did they have capabilities 7 of melting the gold there? 8 OFFICER THIELE: I do believe that -- I 9 personally didn't find it, but I do believe that 10 one of the other officers with us did find a 11 little melting pot in one of the back rooms. I 12 honestly can't tell you where. 13 MS. RUIZ: So you cannot accurately say 14 how many jewelry items could possibly have been 15 taken through an illegal transaction? 16 OFFICER THIELE: No. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Were there any follow-up 18 questions by committee? Mr. Lee, Mr. Park, any 19 additional questions? 20 MR. LEE: Yes, I actually repair them. 21 I'm just a little bit, someone want to make a ring 22 size bigger, at that time, I just collect the dust 23 scraps and melted it, and make it -- rolling, we 24 have a rolling machine inside also and we just 25 make it, file it and, you know, make it ring size. 78 1 That's what that melting tray on, really small, 2 this much, this much so. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Do you routinely melt -- 4 so other than for scraps or making some type of 5 repairs, do you routinely melt down your purchased 6 gold, or do you send it out elsewhere? 7 MR. LEE: Most of them we just send to 8 metal collector. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And where is -- what 10 metal collector do you use? Do you use one in 11 Chicago? 12 MR. LEE: Chicago, most of them. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: How often -- under oath 14 here, how long do you routinely hold on to your 15 gold? Do you hold on to it 15 days? Do you have 16 a policy of holding on to it longer than 15 days? 17 Does it vary? 18 MR. LEE: Yes. I hold in case I need 19 the money at the time we just sell them. So I 20 just don't hold them more than two months, 21 something like that. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So it depends. It 23 depends on whether or not you need money or how 24 much you collect at some point? Do you have any 25 set policy? 79 1 MR. LEE: I just keep them 15 days 2 exactly. Some more than three weeks, and I just 3 make two trays. One tray is exactly 15 days, 4 other tray make more weeks. I just do that. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You routinely hold on to 6 it for one additional week beyond what the minimum 7 ordinance requires? 8 MR. LEE: Yes, I'm sure. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Thank you. 10 MS. RUIZ: And one more question for Mr. 11 Lee would be, how can -- if there is no record of 12 this jewelry, accurate record, how can you tell 13 which ones you traded? How do you know that it 14 was something that you traded and that you didn't 15 take money for? 16 MR. LEE: Oh, I got receipt. 17 Everything, I just, I just write in a detailed 18 description in the notebook and police department 19 got for the officer, that's my notebook, and I 20 just recorded. More than a year I hold that 21 notebook. I just write a date. We just -- that's 22 computer writing, the date on the bottom part. So 23 exactly, we just know that they counted the 15 24 days. I just hold all the time. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, thank you. Was 80 1 there anything else, Ms. Ruiz, in terms of your 2 case here? 3 MS. RUIZ: Officer Thiele, did Mr. Lee 4 tell you that he had traded those pieces or that 5 he had bought those pieces? 6 OFFICER THIELE: He didn't tell us 7 anything. Today is the first day I've heard 8 anything about a trade. The PP16As that we did 9 collect from these other three transactions, as 10 far as my recollection, said nothing of a trade of 11 anything. There was no markings on the actual 12 form. 13 MS. RUIZ: No more questions. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right, thank you. 15 Was there anyone else that wished to provide 16 testimony in this proceeding? 17 MS. RUIZ: No, those are my two 18 witnesses. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Was there anyone else in 20 the audience? Please come forward. If you are 21 able to, if you could take the standing microphone 22 please, if possible. You have been sworn in. 23 Sir, if you could provide a name and address for 24 the record. 25 MR. CLEREMAN: My name is Jason 81 1 Clereman, 1028 West Washington Street, Milwaukee, 2 Wisconsin. I haven't been privy to a lot of the 3 details of this case, but a lot of members of my 4 community are upset with the actions of these 5 jewelers. What they essentially did was created a 6 very large market for stolen property. I pay 7 higher insurance premiums for my homeowners 8 insurance, for my auto insurance, direct result 9 from conduct like this. I understand that the 10 license is a privilege, not a right. And along 11 with that comes added duties and burden that he 12 has to bear. I don't know think he has done that. 13 THE COURT REPORTER: The spelling of 14 your last name, sir? 15 MR. CLEREMAN: C-L-E-R-E-M-A-N. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Clereman, if you 17 could also return there. Could you again provide 18 your address? I don't think we adequately got it 19 here. 20 MR. CLEREMAN: My address is 1028 West 21 Washington Street. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, thank you. If you 23 may, anybody who comes up and provides testimony 24 is always open to cross examination. So you don't 25 get one without the other. 82 1 MR. CLEREMAN: That's fine. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other than your 3 statement and your concern, which I will grant is 4 certainly valid, you have no personal knowledge of 5 Mr. Lee here or his respective business, would 6 that be fair to say? 7 MR. CLEREMAN: That's correct. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Other 9 questions by committee? Mr. Lee, Mr. Park, are 10 there any questions that you have of this 11 gentleman? 12 MR. PARK: No. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, thank you. I will 14 ask again, were there any others in the audience? 15 Thank you. You are finished with your 16 presentation? 17 MS. RUIZ: Yes, sir. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Park, Mr. Lee, I 19 will provide you with an opportunity if you wish 20 to provide any additional testimony, if you wish 21 to provide any statements to the committee. At 22 this time, this would be your opportunity. 23 MR. PARK: Just please hold open until 24 the court, municipal court decision is rendered, 25 please hold off. 83 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. What I will just 2 say is that, that the committee can consider if it 3 so desires, it is an option to the committee. 4 This committee has the ability to make a 5 determination that the charges are insufficient 6 and dismiss the charges. And the committee has 7 the ability to consider the evidence as presented 8 and suspend the license or to move for revocation. 9 The committee could also hold. All those are 10 possibilities here. But is there any other 11 closing that you wish to make in terms of the 12 items that have been presented here? 13 MR. PARK: No further. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Ms. Ruiz, 15 anything, very briefly, that you want to do in 16 terms of closing? 17 MS. RUIZ: Just that as we have covered, 18 all precious metals and gem dealers are required 19 to, obviously, ask for identification, ask for 20 declaration of ownership, maintain their register 21 and complete PP16As. 22 Based on the evidence that we've 23 provided, I believe it shows that the licensee has 24 not been abiding by the law. The employee here 25 actually tried to do the right thing by asking for 84 1 identification, but the licensee, the person who 2 is supposed to be in charge of the store, was the 3 one that allowed her to take in this jewelry 4 without the proper identification or without 5 filling out any of the proper forms. 6 It's also been show by evidence that the 7 officer did not even put down his correct name. 8 He made up a false name, false address, false 9 telephone number. Without identification, 10 fingerprints, we cannot -- the police department 11 cannot later track down who is responsible for 12 having sold to these jewelry stores any jewelry 13 that has been taken during burglaries. And 14 therefore, that investigation cannot be completed, 15 and they can never find the defendants so that 16 they can give back the stolen items to the victims 17 and so that they can close out the case and find 18 out who actually committed that burglary. 19 And to top it all off, when Mr. Lee was 20 approached by Officer Theile, he initially also 21 lied to the officer and changed his story twice, 22 said that Officer Greer owed him money, and, you 23 know, all of that is to -- was done in order to 24 throw off the police. So he intentionally lied. 25 He definitely has violated 90-12. He is 85 1 not abiding by the Milwaukee Code of Ordinances. 2 And I believe that we also cannot give an accurate 3 depiction of how many times he has done this and 4 how often he does this within even a 30-day 5 period. 6 Based on all of that, I do believe that 7 his license should be revoked. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Were there 9 any additional questions by committee? 10 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Lee, go ahead 12 MR. LEE: I have mistakes, but after 13 that day, I'm really myself, changed mind, and 14 that I just regret myself, and I writing my book 15 after that day, and once, one chapter was a 16 writing. And at the time, I'm just really just my 17 mind, my heart is less, come down, and I cannot 18 eating, I cannot sleeping much, and I cannot -- I 19 do not talking with my family and even my wife, 20 and we cannot sleep together really. And I'm 21 really regret, and please, mercy, please. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Alderwoman 23 Coggs. 24 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: This question is for 25 the legal department. Is there a reason that you 86 1 only did one straw buy at this location? 2 OFFICER THIELE: I can answer that also. 3 The City of Milwaukee contracts with a different 4 company to take our property from the property 5 control section as that property is ready for 6 disposal. The gold that we were able to get from 7 the property control division, it wasn't a lot. 8 And to be honest with you, several of those pieces 9 were junk. We learned that on our first 10 transaction. So we didn't have a lot of gold and 11 jewelry to do repeated attempts. Although, we 12 would have liked to, it's been discussed between 13 me and my partner, my captain, the city attorney, 14 we would have liked to do more. We just didn't 15 have the resources. Those steps to alleviate that 16 problem have been taken between me and Captain 17 Gaglione and higher-ups in the police department. 18 So we have -- if this occurs again, maybe even in 19 a different police district, at least those 20 officers would have a nice supply of things that 21 they could do this repeatedly. We just didn't 22 have the resources. 23 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Question for the 24 applicant. We saw on tape and we heard from you 25 and the police what happened in this incident. 87 1 And I guess most disturbing to me is that your 2 staff wasn't willing to sell but you as the owner 3 and applicant actually stepped in and allowed for 4 that illegal transaction to take place, and then 5 later was not as forthcoming with police as you 6 should have been. What are you doing differently? 7 What do you plan -- if this license were not 8 revoked and you were allowed to continue to do 9 business, what should we as a committee have any 10 faith that you as the owner, after what we've seen 11 and what we've heard and what you yourself have 12 said, that this won't happen again? What are you 13 doing? What changes have you made? What 14 adjustments have you made? 15 MR. LEE: Yeah, I -- after that day, I 16 changed a lot of things. We just, we just after 17 make a deal first, and then we ID at the time, but 18 now we see ID first. It change me. At the time 19 we say we don't want to buy, and we just another 20 thing, we openly -- some customer openly bring in 21 the items with gold, "Please don't come over 22 here." I just tell them. And I changed a lot, 23 and we just ask PP16 and besides just the writing 24 a someone bring -- the men bring the lady's ring, 25 at that time, we just, "Oh, it's not your item," 88 1 and we just tell first. And keep writing the day, 2 and this isn't my -- I purchase my wife, but we 3 just broken so I just sell them, we just write 4 down now. And totally, before and after are 5 different. 6 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 7 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions, 9 Alderman Kovac. 10 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Question for the 11 police. I just want to make sure I understand the 12 chronology of the investigation. You arrested 13 some burglars and the burglars told you that 14 these, there were four stores that they said they 15 would fence at? 16 OFFICER THIELE: Yes sir. 17 ALDERMAN KOVAC: How many burglars was 18 this? 19 OFFICER THIELE: I think we picked up 20 three. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Did all three mention 22 all four stores or -- 23 OFFICER THIELE: There were two that I 24 mentioned specifically not only in my search 25 warrant application, but I think in the petition 89 1 that they were the two that directed us to these. 2 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Two of three mentioned 3 this store? 4 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, sir. 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And then you did one 6 straw buy at all four stores? 7 OFFICER THIELE: Yes. 8 ALDERMAN KOVAC: No more than one at any 9 of them? 10 OFFICER THIELE: Well, the very first 11 store that we went to, as I just mentioned, we had 12 junk jewelry. And you're not going to sell junk 13 jewelry, sir. So we actually got schooled by the 14 business, went back to the station, reevaluated 15 the items that we had, the small amount of items 16 that we had, and then we went back to that store 17 later on in the day. So there was only one 18 business of the four that we did that day that we 19 went back to two times. 20 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Because the first time 21 was unsuccessful because you didn't have real 22 gold? 23 OFFICER THIELE: Yes. 24 ALDERMAN KOVAC: But after you did the 25 straw buys at the stores, one each, then you did 90 1 search warrants at all four? 2 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, we did our -- we 3 would look at -- I actually did contact the 4 license investigation unit to get the licensee's 5 information on the four businesses. Included in 6 my search warrant application was information to 7 prove that I got from the license investigation 8 unit, specifically for John's, that he had a prior 9 -- that he had been cited prior to our 10 investigation in, I want to say '08, and there was 11 two convictions in November of '08, I believe, for 12 PM&G license violations. That was included in all 13 of our investigations, and included, like I say, 14 stated in the search warrant affidavit and the 15 petition. 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So at all four stores 17 you found jewelry that wasn't properly categorized 18 or wasn't properly -- the proper paperwork hadn't 19 been filled out? 20 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, sir. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And did the other three 22 -- at this store, you couldn't directly connect 23 any of that jewelry to a burglary? 24 OFFICER THIELE: Not at John's we 25 didn't. Yes, sir. 91 1 ALDERMAN KOVAC: At the other three, did 2 you? 3 OFFICER THIELE: Out of the other -- 4 yes, I believe that all three of the stores that 5 we did, mainly Star Jewelry. They were our 6 biggest store that we found. 7 ALDERMAN KOVAC: How many -- you found 8 three additional ones at John's. How many 9 additionals, in addition to the straw buy, did you 10 find at the other three stores? 11 OFFICER THIELE: All in total, I 12 couldn't -- I can't break it down to you per 13 store. I can tell you that between the four 14 stores that we did our investigation on, my 15 partner and I recovered 12 -- about 1,200 pieces 16 of jewelry that were unaccounted for that were 17 taken in and purchased from the general public 18 illegally. Of those four stores, we were able to 19 clear, I believe, 15 different types of crimes 20 ranging from burglary, theft, etcetera, from 21 several jurisdictions even as far south as I 22 believe Kenosha, sir. So it wasn't just the city 23 and/or the county of Milwaukee, it reached farther 24 than that. 25 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So between the four 92 1 stores, you found 1,200 pieces of jewelry that 15 2 of which can be directly related to crimes? 3 OFFICER THIELE: Actually, we were able 4 to return 59 individual pieces of gold to roughly 5 15 different victims from all over. 6 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So I guess, the reason 7 I'm asking, is it fair to say that the other three 8 stores had much more than this store? 9 OFFICER THIELE: Yes, sir. 10 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Much more was found. 11 And so the other three stores all voluntarily 12 withdrew their licenses? 13 OFFICER THIELE: As far as I'm 14 understanding, yes, sir. 15 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Okay. And it's not 16 even close, this store had a lot less violations, 17 at least that you discovered in the search 18 warrant, than the other three? 19 OFFICER THIELE: I'm sorry, what did you 20 say? 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: It's not even close. 22 This store had a lot less than the other three 23 stores -- 24 OFFICER THIELE: Yes. 25 ALDERMAN KOVAC: -- that you found with 93 1 the search warrant. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Any other questions by 3 committee? 4 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chair, one more. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf. 6 MR. SCHRIMPF: Of the officer, my notes 7 reflect that your earlier testimony was that none 8 of -- no stolen items were traced to this store, 9 is that correct? 10 OFFICER THIELE: That's correct. 11 MR. PARK: Mr. Lee, would like to ask, 12 his prior record to 2008. 13 MR. LEE: Yeah, I just knew that I have 14 an occupancy permit and a tax permit, and I just 15 negatively know, I just registered at John's 16 Jewelry, Inc. And at the time I just old, 17 complete, I just got that while I work, I got the 18 old license I thought, but 2008 interrupt my 19 business. At the time, "Oh", the precious metal 20 and a gem dealer, I didn't need a license. I just 21 know at the time. So I just applied it. The 22 first time, I applied it. After that day, I just 23 keep those on, and the same next year. I just 24 applicated, I take the 2010 licenses also. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. We'll have a 94 1 little bit of housekeeping. First, Alderman 2 Zielinski would move to make the police complaint 3 part of our official record in this proceeding. 4 Hearing no objections, so ordered. 5 Alderman Zielinski would move to make 6 the notice to the licensee, a copy thereof, part 7 of the official record in this proceeding. 8 Hearing no objections to that, so ordered. 9 And then we have additionally the 10 matters of the license application, the police 11 report, the summons and the hearing notice. 12 Alderman Zielinski would move to make all of those 13 items part of the official record in this 14 proceeding. Hearing no objections to that, so 15 ordered. 16 With that, we are in committee on this 17 matter. 18 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Mr. Chair. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Hamilton. 20 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: This one is a little 21 complicated just because it's obvious that this 22 location was chosen to be, to have this sting 23 operation here because burglars said that they 24 could, you know, they could fence material here. 25 I guess the most disappointing thing about all of 95 1 the testimony here today is that, you know, the 2 employees at this location were trying to do the 3 right thing, were willing to turn the customer 4 away if he did not have the information that was 5 the ID that was necessary, and it was the 6 applicant who came forward and kind of made 7 exceptions for this. So I think the punishment 8 lies squarely on your shoulders. I mean, so you 9 have to carry this responsibility. 10 I think the good thing in this is that, 11 clearly, this is not as bad as some of the other 12 applications that have come before this committee. 13 And, you know, and we were not able to draw a 14 definitive line between stolen items and what was 15 found at this location. But clearly, the business 16 practices there need to be improved and you need 17 to make sure that this is not a location where 18 people can fence stolen items. And I think that 19 your employees understand that, I think you need 20 to understand that as well and understand what the 21 process is. 22 The other problem I think with the 23 presentation here today is the cooperation with 24 the police department. Once they recognized that 25 there is a problem that, you know, if you don't 96 1 know what happened, then it is probably not a good 2 idea to make up stories about, you know, what 3 happened or try to justify your actions, you know, 4 with excuses. You have to own up to it to some 5 degree. And I think that's probably one of the 6 frustrating issues that the police department had 7 to deal with in dealing with this. Because you're 8 not the only store that they had to do an 9 investigation on. It would probably be a whole 10 lot easier and a whole lot smoother if you just 11 cooperate. So, you know, especially if there is 12 nothing nefarious going on, and you're not trying 13 to elude the police or elude the system, then you 14 probably should cooperate and give as much 15 information as you possibly can. 16 But with that said, you know, I 17 definitely do not think that, you know, from the 18 evidence that's been provided here today that you 19 are as bad as some of the other locations that 20 were on our agenda today, but clearly some changes 21 need to be made. 22 And so my motion, Mr. Chair, because of 23 the information provided here by the committee, 24 I'm going to make a motion for a 45-day 25 suspension, and that's the motion. 97 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. The motion 2 by Alderman Hamilton is to recommend a 45-day 3 suspension based upon the testimony and video 4 footage evidence provided. 5 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: By the testimony and 6 the police report. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And the police report, 8 okay. Thank you for clarifying those. Is there 9 additional discussion on the motion? No 10 additional discussion on the motion. We'll ask 11 the clerk if we could get a roll call vote on the 12 motion then, please? 13 MS. BLACK: Alderman Hamilton. 14 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Aye. 15 MS. BLACK: Alderman Kovac. 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Aye. 17 MS. BLACK: Alderwoman Coggs. 18 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Aye. 19 MS. BLACK: Alderman Zielinski. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Aye. 21 MS. BLACK: Mr. Chair. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Aye. The motion will 23 prevail 5-0. Mr. Schrimpf. 24 MR. SCHRIMPF: The committee is going to 25 be doing finding of fact and conclusions while 98 1 recommending a 45-day suspension of your Precious 2 Metal and Gem Dealers License. You will receive a 3 copy of that. You will have an opportunity to 4 submit written objections to that recommendation. 5 If so, they must be received in room 205 of this 6 building by 4:45 p.m., February 9th -- I'm sorry, 7 February 4, 2009. If you submit written 8 objections, then you'll also have the ability to 9 appear before the Milwaukee Common Council when it 10 considers this matter at approximately 9:00 a.m. 11 on February 9th, I'm sorry, 2010, February 9, 12 2010, in the Common Council chambers of this 13 building. And there will be a letter that goes 14 out explaining that. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are there any questions 16 you have with that Mr. Park? Mr. Park, any 17 questions? 18 MR. PARK: No. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. I just, I 20 want to make one very brief comment and say this 21 much. I appreciate the efforts of the Milwaukee 22 Police Department in conducting these 23 investigations. I don't want this to be an 24 indication that somehow this committee is 25 disregarding your work in this effort. I think 99 1 clearly when I look at the complaints with all 2 four, the other three were far, far more egregious 3 than this. 4 Even with the ordinances in place, I 5 think it's fair to say that you could find someone 6 who would deal, willing to put their ID and take 7 stolen goods directly to any place and sell them. 8 There's -- what we want to do is provide the 9 accounting record and have the ability to track 10 items down at that time to try to minimize that. 11 But clearly, I think, of the four, this was by far 12 the least egregious, and I think that there is, at 13 least based on the evidence here, that we had a 14 poor decision, a poor decision that was made, but 15 I don't know that it fits necessarily the bill and 16 make the assumption that somehow we had this one 17 incident where based on the follow-up evidence 18 they I believe the officer said we had 50 or so 19 items that only a fewer than a handful in which we 20 could provide validity to the ordinance, and even 21 his employee was doing the right things. I think 22 it is therefore probably a little bit of a jump to 23 make the assumption that somehow as a result of 24 that, that he is a bad operator that shuns the law 25 and is operating in wholesale violation of the 100 1 law. 2 So I do appreciate the police 3 department's efforts on this here, as I think when 4 I looked at the complaint, it was well drafted. I 5 thought clearly the other ones that withdrew their 6 license were absolutely a slam dunk, and I thought 7 this one was little bit less than that, but thank 8 you for your work and continued efforts in this. 9 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 10 MR. PARK: When we start the 45 days 11 suspension, today or February? 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Park, what happens 13 is the matter is taken up before the Common 14 Council on February 9th. There is -- the 15 council -- this is a recommendation that goes 16 before the council. It is not a recommendation 17 the council has to adhere to. The council can 18 accept the recommendation of the committee, the 19 council could also change that recommendation. If 20 the council decides to enact that recommendation, 21 the 45-day suspension would commence immediately 22 upon February 9th upon the decision of the 23 council. Is that correct, Mr. Schrimpf? 24 MR. SCHRIMPF: Yes. 25 MR. PARK: February 9th or 4th? 101 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: February 9th. 2 MR. PARK: February 9th, okay. 3 MR. SCHRIMPF: 45 days thereafter. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you all. 5 MR. PARK: Thank you. 6 MS. RUIZ: Mr. Chair, just for the 7 record, Reflections, Cash-N-Gold and Star Jewelry, 8 just to make it clearly on the record that they 9 have surrendered their license. Milwaukee Code 10 Ordinance, 85-13, that they cannot apply for a 11 PM&G license for a period of 12 months. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. And if 13 they're smart, they don't apply ever again. 14 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac. 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 17 I wanted to congratulate the Milwaukee Police 18 Department on a very thorough, effective 19 investigation. And to Mr. Lee, I just want to say 20 that I think you got really lucky here today. I 21 was -- I support that motion, but it was a close 22 call. And your employee to some extent saved you 23 because she gave the impression that generally you 24 guys run a tight ship and you made a few mistakes. 25 And the fact that the numbers seem to indicate 102 1 that I think is what -- you asked us for mercy and 2 I guess we gave you mercy. But I want to make it 3 clear that it wasn't because you have a family to 4 support that we did it. It's because overall, we 5 don't think you are going to do it again, and 6 overall, you haven't done it for months. Because 7 you have a family to support, but so do a lot of 8 other people in that neighborhood. And as the one 9 person testified, even if people who don't, aren't 10 the victims of crime suffer because the entire 11 neighborhood suffers. So everyone around you 12 suffers by you buying obviously stolen material. 13 Clearly, you've done it occasionally, otherwise 14 the burglars wouldn't have mentioned you. So it's 15 happened, it just hasn't happened as often as the 16 other places. So you got lucky, but I don't think 17 you're going to get another chance. 18 MR. LEE: Thank you. 19 MR. PARK: Thank you. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Alderman. Do 21 you want to take a two-, three-minute recess here? 22 Okay. The committee will be in recess here for 23 about three, four minutes here. 24 25 103 1 STATE OF WISCONSIN ) ) SS: 2 COUNTY OF MILWAUKEE ) 3 4 5 I, KAREN RENEE, Court Reporter and 6 Notary Public in and for the State of Wisconsin, do 7 hereby certify that the above proceedings of the City 8 of Milwaukee Licenses Committee was recorded by me on 9 January 19, 2010, and reduced to writing under my 10 personal direction. 11 I further certify that I am not a 12 relative or employee or attorney or counsel of any of 13 the parties, or a relative or employee of such attorney 14 or counsel, or financially interested directly or 15 indirectly in this action. 16 In witness whereof I have hereunder set 17 my hand and affixed my seal of office at Milwaukee, 18 Wisconsin, this 24th day of January, 2010. 19 20 21 _________________________________ Notary Public 22 In and for the State of Wisconsin 23 24 My Commission Expires: March 11, 2012. 25