1 1 CITY OF MILWAUKEE 2 LICENSES COMMITTEE 3 ******************************************************* 4 In the Matter of the motion relating to revocation of the Class "B" Tavern license of: 5 JENNIE NUELL 6 "ALL STAR SPORTS BAR" 4001 West Fond du Lac Avenue 7 -AND- 8 In the Matter of the motion relating to revocation of 9 the Class "B" Manager license of: 10 EDDIE J. NUELL "ALL STAR SPORTS BAR" 11 4001 West Fond du Lac Avenue ******************************************************* 12 13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: 14 ALD. JAMES A. BOHL, JR., Chair ALD. MILELE A. COGGS, Vice-Chair 15 ALD. ASHANTI HAMILTON ALD. NIK KOVAC 16 ALD. T. ANTHONY ZIELINSKI 17 STAFF ASSISTANT: TOBIE BLACK LICENSING DIVISION by: REBECCA GRILL 18 POLICE DEPARTMENT by: PAUL MacGILLIS CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE by: BRUCE D. SCHRIMPF 19 20 Proceedings had and testimony given in 21 the above-entitled matters, before the LICENSES 22 COMMITTEE OF THE CITY OF MILWAUKEE, on Friday, the 23 29th day of May, commencing at 9:00 a.m. and 24 concluding at 1:15 p.m. 25 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 2 1 I N D E X 2 WITNESS PAGE 3 CHRISTINA MITCHELL 4 Direct Examination By Mr. Pederson ...............58 Examination By Alderwoman Coggs ..................61 5 Examination By Mr. Schrimpf ......................63 Cross-Examination By Mr. Whitcomb ................64 6 7 MARCUS NUELL 8 Direct Examination By Mr. Whitcomb ...............74 Examination By Alderwoman Coggs ..................79 9 Examination By Mr. Schrimpf ......................81 Examination By Alderwoman Coggs ..................83 10 Cross-Examination By Mr. Pederson ................85 Examination By Chairman Bohl .....................89 11 Examination By Alderman Hamilton .................91 Examination By Mr. Schrimpf ......................99 12 13 EDDIE NUELL 14 Direct Examination By Mr. Whitcomb ..............101 Examination By Alderwoman Coggs .................104 15 Cross-Examination By Mr. Pederson ...............105 Examination By Chairman Bohl ....................107 16 Examination By Alderman Kovac ...................109 Examination By Chairman Bohl ....................110 17 Further Cross-Examination By Mr. Pederson .......111 18 TONJA RICHARDSON 19 Direct Examination By Mr. Whitcomb ..............126 20 Cross-Examination By Mr. Pederson ...............128 21 22 23 (No exhibits marked on this record.) 24 25 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 3 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Item No. 4 is file 2 No. 081329, a motion relating to the revocation of 3 the Class "B" Tavern license for Jennie Nuell, 4 Agent for Maximum Capacity, LLC, for "All Star 5 Sports Bar," 4001 West Fond du Lac Avenue. 6 Item No. 5 is file No. 081330, 7 motion relating to the revocation of the Class "B" 8 Manager license of Eddie J. Nuell for "All Star 9 Sports Bar" at 4001 West Fond du Lac Avenue. 10 We can go ahead and just take a 11 moment here to settle. 12 MR. WHITCOMB: Mr. Eddie Nuell will be 13 here presently. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Whitcomb, this is a 15 continuation, but you and Mr. Pederson, if you 16 just want to state your appearances, please. 17 We'll start with you. 18 MR. WHITCOMB: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 19 My name is Michael Whitcomb. I'm 20 an attorney represent -- representing the 21 licensees on Item No. 4 and 5, Jennie Nuell and 22 Eddie Nuell. 23 And as we did at the last meeting, 24 I would suggest and move that both hearings be 25 considered at the same time since the complaints Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 4 1 against both of them are substantially identical, 2 so as not to require the duplication of 3 presentation of evidence and testimony. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And that's why I read 5 both into the file to present before us here. So 6 thank you. Mr. Pederson, do you want to just 7 state your appearance then for our record here 8 today? 9 MR. PEDERSON: Yes. Thank you, 10 Mr. Chair. I am Robin Pederson, Assistant City 11 Attorney representing the chief of police in this 12 matter. I'll also inform the committee that 13 present today for our case is commander of 14 District 7, Captain Jessup, as well as Detective 15 Luke O'Day and one citizen witness, Miss Christina 16 Mitchell. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. We will -- 18 for our two applicants, even though this is a 19 continuation, we'll just swear you in here again. 20 (Jennie Nuell and Eddie Nuell sworn.) 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: As I indicated, this is 22 a continuation hearing. We've -- we've already 23 taken evidence in and made it part of the record. 24 We've already asked for acknowledgment, and I'll 25 ask you just for today's individual hearing for -- Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 5 1 for Jennie Nuell, if you acknowledge receiving a 2 copy of the sworn complaint and summons with 3 the -- with the possibility based upon a -- the 4 complaint that your license for a Class "B" Tavern 5 referenced in application for All Star Sports Bar, 6 4001 West Fond du Lac Avenue could be revoked. 7 MR. WHITCOMB: So acknowledged for 8 today's hearing. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And then also to Eddie 10 Nuell, if you acknowledge receiving the notice and 11 the summons, as well as the complaint, with the 12 possibility that the application for a Class "B" 13 manager's license could be revoked? 14 MR. WHITCOMB: So acknowledged. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. All right. 16 Mr. Whitcomb, you have already made an opening 17 presentation here, and I think at the last hearing 18 where we -- where we adjourned, Mr. Pederson was 19 going to present some additional evidence. 20 I know that you had, as part of 21 your open presentation, already stipulated to the 22 individual charges that were relating to an -- 23 MR. WHITCOMB: Obstruction. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- obstruction of 25 justice that essentially you've indicated that Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 6 1 there was a pleading of guilty, that you are not 2 going to contest the -- the general merit of the 3 guilty plea before us here. 4 MR. WHITCOMB: No. I mean, generally, 5 by -- both Eddie Nuell and Jennie Nuell were less 6 than candid with the authorities in identifying a 7 member or an employee of the security guard at the 8 establishment that was involved in a shooting 9 incident around the corner from the bar. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. At this point 11 here, what I'm going to have us do is just go to 12 Mr. Pederson, and he can provide his 13 presentation -- 14 What I'll ask you to do, 15 Mr. Whitcomb, and certainly if you want to make 16 notes, you'll be able to cross-examine anything, 17 I'm hoping to try to allow him to run at least 18 fairly smoothly. 19 He may have individual pieces to 20 make in terms of presentation. When we get 21 from -- from one individual or entity, I'll ask 22 for questioning by the committee. Then I'll allow 23 you to provide any cross-examination if you wish. 24 But I just want to at least try to 25 allow him with each individual portion of the Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 7 1 presentation that he will make in terms of his -- 2 his submission of evidence, that he at least be 3 allowed to try to get through that as opposed to 4 constantly being cut off here. 5 Mr. Pederson, the floor is yours. 6 MR. PEDERSON: With the understanding 7 that we've had that to minimize the time in this 8 matter that a good portion of the allegations 9 contained in the complaint, we do not take issue 10 with. So I would hope that we don't have to 11 relive every allegation contained in the complaint 12 just for the sake of brevity. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And I've had that 14 discussion, and I hope that we at least try to 15 meet the original standard on that. 16 MR. PEDERSON: That's understood with 17 the counter-understanding, of course, that 18 necessarily there will be some overlap. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Which is fine, and I 20 understand that you'll do your best to present 21 reasonable evidence and do so with a measure of 22 brevity. 23 MR. PEDERSON: Certainly. However, 24 unfortunately, my laptop has not been attached to 25 the projector yet. So my proposal would be to Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 8 1 have whoever does that do that, and in the 2 meantime the PA33s have not yet been read into the 3 record. So I would propose that we do those two 4 things simultaneously. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We've -- we've 6 ultimately already taken the PA33s, and we made 7 the entire police report part of our record, so it 8 was actually -- 9 MR. PEDERSON: Okay. 10 MR. WHITCOMB: Over my objection. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And that was duly noted. 12 MR. PEDERSON: Okay. But -- well, that 13 leaves the matter of my laptop needing to be 14 attached, and I don't -- 15 MR. WHITCOMB: While that's being done, 16 perhaps we can address a preliminary legal issue, 17 and I believe that it is necessary for the 18 department to establish they came into lawful 19 custody of the video segments of which they would 20 like to present to this committee. 21 And based upon the records I've 22 reviewed, I do not see anything within the records 23 that reflect that the video was lawfully obtained 24 by warrant or by consent, and I perhaps do not 25 have all the records, but private property just Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 9 1 cannot be seized by the department and then 2 subsequently used against the owner of that 3 property in any type of proceeding unless they 4 come into lawful possession of that property. 5 So as a preliminary matter, I would 6 like to have it established by way of foundation 7 that the evidence via the video was lawfully 8 acquired by this department. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You're saying was 10 unlawfully obtained by the department? 11 MR. WHITCOMB: Yes, neither by warrant 12 nor by consent. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf, what say 14 you to the application being made here in terms of 15 whether or not that particular evidence here can 16 be utilized by the City Attorney's office? 17 MR. SCHRIMPF: I would like to check 18 something in Chapter 139 of the statutes, if I 19 could, Mr. Chairman. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Being as -- 21 being as we're dealing with multiple issues at 22 this time, and I hate to do this because I'd like 23 to move this proceeding along, why don't we just 24 take a two-minute recess here and get that 25 rectified and get this issue rectified. Okay? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 10 1 We'll do that off camera, and we'll 2 be right back. 3 (Recess taken.) 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: This is the resumption 5 of the licenses committee. 6 Mr. Schrimpf, there was a question 7 that I posed before we went in our brief recess 8 relating to the points that were made by 9 Mr. Whitcomb pertaining to the videographic 10 evidence. 11 I wonder if you may be able to 12 provide us some points of wisdom here. 13 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, I don't know about 14 wisdom, Mr. Chairman, but I checked 139.08 15 Subsection 4 of the statutes. That's the section 16 of the statutes that deals with the ability of law 17 enforcement officers to enter upon a place where 18 malt or -- beverages or intoxicating liquors are 19 kept and run certain inspections, even seize 20 certain papers and documents and records. That 21 section, however, seems to address itself to 22 investigations for purposes of taxes and to 23 determine if taxes have been paid. 24 And I take it -- and perhaps we 25 need a further explanation from Mr. Pederson Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 11 1 exactly how the police department came across 2 these videos and what the circumstances of that 3 were. So that may answer some questions. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Whitcomb? 5 MR. WHITCOMB: Yes. For the record, 6 there was correspondence between Mr. Pederson and 7 your office, as chairman of this committee, 8 concerning the use of the video, and I made 9 representations that a copy was provided to my 10 office after the last hearing for which was the 11 cause of the adjournment. 12 The video -- or the video file 13 contains 12 cameras. For each camera, there was 14 three files. For each file is about two hours in 15 length, so it's 36 hours of coverage if you -- 16 with all 12 cameras. I went through them quickly. 17 I did not see my client on the videos as 18 represented in Paragraph 21 of the complaint, and 19 that was my concern. 20 Spending last weekend going through 21 those files in more particularity, while listening 22 to the Brewers' games, I did and was able to see 23 on the video depictions of my client. She was in 24 the office upstairs above the tavern. 25 And if the purposes of the video is Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 12 1 to substantiate Paragraphs (a) through (f) of 2 Paragraph 21 of the complaint, I can tell this 3 committee, those paragraphs to which we would 4 agree, and there is no dispute, and so it wouldn't 5 be necessary to present the video depiction of 6 what those allegations contain. 7 The first allegation, 21(a) -- I'm 8 just speaking about the subparts -- it states that 9 the licensee, Miss Nuell, we're talking about -- 10 these don't apply to Eddie, it wasn't part of his 11 complaint -- Miss Nuell looks out the upstairs 12 window when Marcus Nuell punches Joyner. That is 13 true. The video does show Miss Nuell getting up 14 from her desk and looking out the window. 15 The timing coincides with a 16 disturbance outside in front of the bar based upon 17 the timing of the cameras. One of the cameras is 18 strictly in her office upstairs. Another camera 19 shows the outside of the building. 20 So we would concur that, yes, she 21 did look outside her window from her office 22 upstairs at about the time when Marcus Nuell got 23 into an altercation with Mr. Joyner. 24 Number (b), the licensee looks out 25 the front door and appears to direct security Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 13 1 employee towards a fight occurring outside between 2 the security personnel and Joyner and Washington. 3 I could not locate that on the video. 4 I didn't spend an entire 36 hours 5 video and speed, speed -- or double speed through 6 the videos. I did not see that, but we will not 7 necessarily dispute that for purposes of the 8 hearing because I don't think it infers any 9 improper conduct. 10 Paragraph sub (c), the licensee 11 talks to Eddie Nuell, who returns to the tavern 12 after the fight ends. Once again, I did not see 13 her depicted in the video as such, but the video 14 of her in her office shows she had left the office 15 before the disturbance and when Mr. Eddie Nuell 16 walked inside. 17 And if it shows that she was at the 18 front door when Eddie returned, we would not take 19 up the time of this committee to dispute it 20 because, standing alone, it doesn't say anything. 21 Sub (d), the licensee suddenly 22 stands up, goes to the window when Hendrix fires a 23 shot from a handgun. Number one, we don't know 24 who fired what. That's not depicted anywhere. 25 However, the licensee, when she was Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 14 1 in her office, she did come to a start while 2 sitting at her desk at or about the time when it 3 appears that a shooting occurred around the corner 4 from the tavern from the vantage point of another 5 camera based upon the same time indication on the 6 videos. 7 Paragraph (e), the licensee talks 8 to Eddie and Marcus when they return, then talks 9 to Hendrix and then walks behind the bar. Hendrix 10 passes a gun off to Beverly. We have no knowledge 11 of that. Hendrix, I don't know what he gave to 12 Beverly. We've acknowledged that Mr. Hendrix 13 handed the gun to Eddie, the one he had outside on 14 the street, but not as regards Beverly, and the 15 licensee doesn't know about that. 16 Item (f), Beverly then disappears 17 from view towards the area that leads both 18 upstairs and down. He then reappears from the 19 door behind the bar which leads downstairs and 20 speaks to the licensee. 21 Maybe whoever wrote this is 22 confusing Beverly with Mr. Eddie Nuell. Eddie 23 Nuell acknowledges, the reason he pled guilty to 24 the obstruction charge, when Hendrix came in from 25 the street, he handed the .38 to Eddie. Eddie put Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 15 1 it on the stairway behind the bar, and he went 2 upstairs. 3 Eddie went upstairs to count the 4 drawers, the money from the drawers, because the 5 bar was closing. At that time he found Hendrix 6 upstairs hiding. That's when he sort of put two 7 and two together. 8 At that time, it was Eddie who 9 removed the video recorder from its location and 10 put it under the bed that was subsequently found 11 by the police, all of which he acknowledged to the 12 police at the time of the incident after basically 13 he caught his bearings. 14 Now, when the police first arrived, 15 it was a universal approach of Sergeant Schultz, 16 you know, we know nothing, we didn't see anything, 17 we didn't hear any -- anything. At that time it 18 was still chaotic, and I don't think anyone 19 individually knew the entire circumstances of what 20 happened outside by whom and to whom and for what 21 reason. So the course was not to say anything or 22 acknowledge knowledge of anything. 23 Subsequently, Eddie did acknowledge 24 what had happened, as did Marcus; and Miss Nuell, 25 her wrongdoing to which she acknowledged was that Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 16 1 she did not immediately identify Mr. Hendrix as 2 the person who was described to the police who may 3 have been involved in the shooting outside. 4 I submit to you when first asked, 5 she didn't know, but later on, she did know and 6 didn't come forward with that information. It was 7 for that reason she suffered a conviction for 8 obstruction and paid a forfeiture of $300. So if, 9 you know, the purpose -- the purpose of the video 10 is to -- 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You can put that on hold 12 here because we don't even know if we can use it. 13 MR. PEDERSON: I understand. We're 14 having trouble with the video. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Please proceed. 16 MR. WHITCOMB: So pursuant to the 17 direction of my client and with respect to the 18 committee to expedite these proceedings to get to 19 this committee the issues and the facts that it 20 needs to make its decision on the complaint, we 21 make those representations as regards to what the 22 video would depict as set forth in the complaint. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 24 Mr. Schrimpf, I still want you to follow up with 25 your line of questioning here. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 17 1 MR. SCHRIMPF: So the question is how 2 did the police department come by these videos? 3 MR. PEDERSON: And I believe 4 Detective O'Day would be prepared to speak on that 5 issue. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are you sworn in here? 7 DETECTIVE O'DAY: No, I'm not sworn in. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Swear him in. 9 (Witness sworn.) 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And we'll need your name 11 and your position within the police department, 12 please. 13 DETECTIVE O'DAY: Luke O'Day. The last 14 name is O-'-D-a-y. I'm a detective with the 15 Milwaukee Police Department. 16 MR. SCHRIMPF: And you've been here, 17 Detective, while Mr. Whitcomb was giving some 18 explanations of things, and you've been here for 19 the proceedings this morning prior to the time of 20 these questions? 21 DETECTIVE O'DAY: That's correct. 22 MR. SCHRIMPF: So you're aware of the 23 fact that we're interested in discovering how it 24 happened that the Milwaukee Police Department came 25 into possession of the videos that are here, and Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 18 1 could you explain that? 2 DETECTIVE O'DAY: Yes. During the 3 investigation, we spoke to many people that were 4 on the scene. One of the persons that we spoke to 5 on the scene was Marcus Nuell, who is the son of 6 Jennie Nuell, the owner. 7 Marcus Nuell, while speaking with 8 one of the detectives on scene, stated that he 9 lived in the upper of the address, and he admitted 10 that Marquis Hendrix, who is a suspect in this 11 incident, was hiding upstairs on the second floor 12 of his address. He gave us permission to go 13 upstairs and go find him. 14 We went upstairs. I was one of the 15 detectives that went upstairs. We located him in 16 the closet of the first bedroom on the second 17 floor, and then I continued to check the rest of 18 the residence for co-actors. 19 As I checked the rest of the 20 residence, I looked under the bed of the second 21 bedroom and under the bed of the second bedroom 22 was a tower, which appeared to have been ripped 23 out of the wall because it still had the plugs and 24 the frayed ends of them. And we took that as 25 evidence later on. So it's taken on scene. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 19 1 MR. SCHRIMPF: Evidence of what? 2 DETECTIVE O'DAY: Evidence of -- during 3 the initial interview, I spoke with Mrs. Nuell, 4 and she told me that she had a surveillance 5 system. And I asked her if she could show me the 6 surveillance system, and she said that she did not 7 know how to operate it. 8 As I finished checking the rest of 9 the residents, I found the area where the 10 surveillance system was kept which was in an open 11 closet; and looking at the wall, I could see the 12 other ends of the cords that were still remaining 13 in the wall. So I believed those cords were 14 connected to the tower that was hidden underneath 15 the bed. 16 MR. SCHRIMPF: So I take it that the 17 investigation that you were conducting at that 18 point was an investigation of a shooting; is that 19 correct? 20 DETECTIVE O'DAY: That's correct. 21 MR. SCHRIMPF: And I take it the 22 investigation did not particularly have anything 23 to do with tax records of the institute -- or of 24 the tavern regarding alcohol sales; is that 25 correct? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 20 1 DETECTIVE O'DAY: No, it did not. 2 MR. SCHRIMPF: Did you ask for 3 permission at any way along the line to take the 4 video equipment or the videotapes or the -- how -- 5 well, let me strike that whole question. 6 How was -- how did this machine 7 record the video images? Was it on a tape? Was 8 it on a disk? Was it digital? 9 DETECTIVE O'DAY: The information was 10 stored on a computer hard drive, and we had to 11 obtain a search warrant to get that information. 12 MR. SCHRIMPF: And did you obtain such a 13 search warrant? 14 DETECTIVE O'DAY: Yes. 15 MR. WHITCOMB: To go into the computer, 16 not to take the computer. That's the issue. 17 DETECTIVE O'DAY: That's correct. 18 MR. SCHRIMPF: So you already had the 19 computer at the point that you obtained the search 20 warrant? 21 DETECTIVE O'DAY: We were searching the 22 residence for other co-actors, and during the 23 course of that search, we found evidence that we 24 believed would help with the investigation, 25 specifically the surveillance system. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 21 1 MR. SCHRIMPF: At what point in time 2 were arrests made? 3 DETECTIVE O'DAY: Eddie -- correction -- 4 Marquis Hendrix was arrested on the spot at that 5 time, and I can't remember exactly what time we 6 arrested Eddie Nuell, Jennie Nuell; and I'm not 7 sure about the others, other employees that were 8 there, at what time we arrested them. 9 There was a time in the future 10 after we viewed the video surveillance that others 11 were taken into custody. I don't just remember 12 the exact chain of events. 13 MR. SCHRIMPF: At the point in time that 14 you obtained the search warrant, was notice given 15 to the Nuells that you were going to obtain this 16 warrant you were seeking? 17 THE WITNESS: I did not notify anyone, 18 no. 19 MR. SCHRIMPF: Did the department view 20 this as a search incident to a lawful arrest? 21 DETECTIVE O'DAY: Yes. If I may say 22 something, whenever we go to shootings and there's 23 surveillance systems inside the establishments, we 24 look at the video surveillance systems while we're 25 there. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 22 1 In this case, the video 2 surveillance system was no longer attached to the 3 system. It had been detached. So there wasn't a 4 chance for us to look at the system. 5 Because of that, we took the system 6 from there, and that's when we got a search 7 warrant to get the contents of it. 8 MR. WHITCOMB: It's the seizure that's 9 at issue. 10 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, Mr. Whitcomb, what 11 would be the difference if the device had not been 12 dislodged from the building and the police 13 department would have viewed the video at the 14 time? What's the difference? 15 MR. WHITCOMB: With consent, there isn't 16 a problem. 17 I don't believe that the 18 department, without a warrant, has the ability to 19 look at the contents of the computer without the 20 consent of the individual. 21 MR. SCHRIMPF: They got the warrant to 22 do that. 23 MR. WHITCOMB: After they had seized the 24 property and taken it into their own possession. 25 It's the seizure. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 23 1 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman -- 2 Mr. Chairman, I think -- I really think this is 3 something that the committee can examine. 4 We may have to hassle this out 5 later, but at this juncture, I fail to -- I really 6 fail to see the distinction if the police 7 department could have seen it at the time. 8 MR. WHITCOMB: With consent. There was 9 not consent given. 10 In all instances where the police 11 department view the contents of a video on-site, 12 it's with the consent of the proprietor. 13 MR. SCHRIMPF: Is this -- 14 MR. WHITCOMB: This is after the fact 15 where the video itself is being used against the 16 property interests of my client and was used 17 against their criminal interests. 18 And so it's totally different when 19 one voluntarily allows a search, voluntarily 20 allows a seizure, voluntarily allows police onto 21 private property, but here it's strictly an issue 22 of content -- of consent. 23 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, the police -- I 24 take it the fact that the police were called -- 25 DETECTIVE O'DAY: That's correct. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 24 1 MR. SCHRIMPF: Do you know how they were 2 called? 3 DETECTIVE O'DAY: We were called by the 4 victim or by friends of the victim after he had 5 gone to the hospital. 6 MR. SCHRIMPF: And you did ask to see 7 the videotapes, and you were told that the -- what 8 were you told again? 9 DETECTIVE O'DAY: I was told that she 10 did not know how to operate it, but one of her 11 sons could operate it for us. 12 MR. SCHRIMPF: But then it was removed? 13 DETECTIVE O'DAY: That's correct. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Was there consent -- was 15 there a request for consent on the removal of 16 the -- of the tower or was it assumed that we are 17 going to take this because normally we look at it, 18 and it's pulled out. So we're going to seize the 19 property. 20 DETECTIVE O'DAY: Given the direction of 21 the investigation, when I -- I was quite surprised 22 when I found video tower underneath the bed. 23 In my mind they were attempting to 24 hide evidence related to the shooting that, from 25 the information we had received, was related to Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 25 1 the tavern. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf? 3 MR. SCHRIMPF: Yes. 4 MR. WHITCOMB: Then you go and get a 5 warrant. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf, isn't 7 that -- I mean, wouldn't the legal recourse be to 8 obtain a warrant to wind up seizing that piece of 9 equipment? 10 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, in the perfect 11 world, that would have happened, right. This is 12 one of those things where -- 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: That's why I wanted to 14 get at the heart of was there a request for 15 consent to say it's not -- it's not plugged in 16 here, can we take this into evidence. 17 MR. PEDERSON: I have two legal 18 arguments related to that. 19 There are warrant exceptions to the 20 Fourth Amendment. One of them is exigency. If 21 they would have left it behind to go get a 22 warrant, anything could have happened to it in the 23 meantime. That's why there's warrant exceptions 24 to evidence like this in crimes. So I don't think 25 there's any violation of the Fourth Amendment in Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 26 1 the seizure. 2 The second argument that I have -- 3 MR. WHITCOMB: There were officers there 4 for the entire time. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Whitcomb, let him 6 make his point here, please. 7 MR. PEDERSON: The second argument I 8 have is I think this whole argument might be a bit 9 of a red herring. I'm being sandbagged with this 10 argument from counsel, but the question that comes 11 to my mind that I don't know the answer to, but I 12 think is a legitimate question, is that what he's 13 raising is a suppression issue. He wants to 14 suppress it via the Fourth Amendment. 15 The problem with that is this is 16 not a criminal proceeding. I'm not sure 17 suppression is available in this hearing 18 without -- without this committee deciding that it 19 wants to suppress it. This is not a criminal 20 court. 21 MR. WHITCOMB: Two points. One, there 22 were officers there from about 2:00 until 23 midnight. Oftentimes, officers remain on the 24 scene of private property. Other officers go 25 before a judge with a warrant before they conduct Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 27 1 a search of the property. This is not in exigent 2 circumstances where the doors have to be busted 3 down in order to secure evidence or protect 4 persons or property. 5 Number two, the allegation that he 6 was sandbagged, I find very offensive. It was at 7 the last hearing that we were first notified -- 8 "we" meaning the licensees -- that a videotape 9 would be used against them that had been 10 unlawfully taken from them without prior notice or 11 disclosure of the video to my office or to them, 12 and it's for that reason that this meeting was 13 adjourned. 14 There's no sandbagged about this. 15 I was unable to discern from the records -- I had 16 assumed the tower was taken lawfully; and when I 17 went to verify it last night and this morning, I 18 could not from the records I had obtained from the 19 police department, through my office and through 20 criminal counsel for Ms. Nuell. 21 And I want the committee to think 22 carefully about sending a message to taverns or 23 stores who voluntarily have security cameras, if 24 they know that at any time the police can come in 25 and take those security cameras from them and use Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 28 1 whatever they find in those cameras against them 2 without their consent. 3 Security cameras are not used for 4 the benefit of the police department. They're 5 used for the benefit of providing security to 6 retail establishments as defined by ordinance, and 7 anything that would put a chilling effect on 8 having these establishments use these surveillance 9 systems such as having [sic] the police the 10 ability to take it from them for whatever purposes 11 they see fit including prosecution against them, I 12 think you're treading a very, very dangerous 13 ground. 14 And in this instance, I don't think 15 we have to resolve the issue because we've pretty 16 much conceded the allegations contained in the 17 complaint which reference the video. 18 Anything else contained in the 19 video falls outside of the parameters of the 20 complaint and, as a matter of due process, would 21 not be properly before this committee. 22 It is for that reason that I asked 23 counsel to provide to my office those files 24 identifying by time stamp as to what he intended 25 to present at this hearing. He refused to do so Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 29 1 and I -- 2 MR. PEDERSON: And I object to that 3 characterization. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. You know what? 5 Ultimately, Mr. Pederson, as well as Mr. Whitcomb, 6 you've both indicated this is not a criminal 7 proceeding so stop treating it like one. 8 Mr. Schrimpf, I'm inclined to 9 determine that the videographic evidence is not 10 admissible. 11 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's -- that's within 12 the Chair's discretion. I will note that I think 13 the Fourth Amendment does apply in civil 14 proceedings, as well as criminal proceedings. 15 But I think the argument of 16 Mr. Pederson regarding the exigent circumstances 17 may be an important point precisely because there 18 was evidence that it had been ripped out of the 19 system; therefore, it is -- it's not unreasonable 20 for a police officer to assume that if they try to 21 get a warrant and leave it there in the meantime 22 it's going disappear. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: But let me ask the 24 viewpoint of what the police department normally 25 does in such an investigation of a shooting. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 30 1 Was the police department present 2 at that site for a number of hours? Do you know 3 that, Detective O'Day? 4 DETECTIVE O'DAY: Yes, we were there. 5 If I may answer your question? 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Please. 7 DETECTIVE O'DAY: In regard to police 8 shootings, I've investigated numerous over four 9 years, and I've never had a property owner refuse 10 to allow me to look at the video. 11 In this instance, if the video was 12 attached to the system, I would have asked for 13 permission, but given the fact that it was -- in 14 my estimation, it was -- they attempted to hide 15 it, it came up under a different purview in that 16 it was search incident to -- incident to arrest. 17 I still went and obtained a search 18 warrant to view the contents of it, which we were 19 granted. So nothing was viewed prior to the 20 search warrant. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm not faulting you or 22 the police department for your desire to conduct 23 an investigation and to do that. 24 What I'm concerned with here is if 25 the police department were present for the period Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 31 1 of hours, would it not be the proper legal 2 recourse typically if they feel that some type of 3 evidence may have been tampered with, knowing that 4 they were going to be present and sort of 5 babysitting this evidence sitting right in front 6 of them, to obtain a legal search warrant to seize 7 that evidence. Mr. Schrimpf? 8 MR. SCHRIMPF: I don't know when the 9 search was taking place. So it's hard to figure 10 out if they would have been able to get a warrant 11 and if this is, you know, at some weird time or on 12 the weekends, I don't know. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I mean, what -- if you 14 have a multiple shooting and you need a search 15 warrant there immediately, what's the normal 16 recourse? This has got to be like -- I don't know 17 how the court system works, but I have to think at 18 some level, just like calling your doctor if you 19 have an emergency, somebody's on call. Is it -- 20 MR. SCHRIMPF: I would think. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: That's what I would 22 think, too. 23 MR. SCHRIMPF: They have duty judges for 24 that reason, but... 25 MR. PEDERSON: I think I can address, Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 32 1 and I think the proper legal analysis and answer 2 to the issues you present are that the law allows 3 them to seize evidence that they seek if they're 4 on the scene legally. 5 Now, if they wanted to continue to 6 search throughout the house, that is the point 7 where a search warrant would be necessary. They 8 can't find one piece of evidence and then decide, 9 you know what, we're going to turn over the rest 10 of this entire house. 11 What the Constitution allows is 12 immediate seizure of the evidence through a 13 warrant exception, and then if they want to go 14 through the rest of the house, they have to secure 15 it and get a warrant. 16 MR. WHITCOMB: A warrant was signed by a 17 judge -- 18 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. 19 Mr. Whitcomb -- 20 MR. WHITCOMB: Oh, I'm sorry. 21 THE COURT REPORTER: Can you speak into 22 the microphone? 23 MR. WHITCOMB: Yes, ma'am. 24 Records indicate that in this case 25 a warrant was signed by a judge at 10:40 a.m., and Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 33 1 pursuant to that warrant, property was removed 2 from the premises, none of which included the 3 computer tower. That had been taken beforehand. 4 There wasn't any difference between 5 the other property obtained from the premises that 6 was seized pursuant to the warrant and the 7 computer. That was the concern. 8 So they did what they normally did 9 do, but for the computer tower. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Let me just ask. 11 Lieutenant O'Day, are you aware of whether 12 officers were present up until the point when the 13 search warrant was obtained? 14 DETECTIVE O'DAY: I don't recall 15 specifically. They could have been, but I'm not 16 sure. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf, I'm really 18 inclined to toss it. 19 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's the call of the 20 Chair. That's the call of the Chair and the 21 committee. 22 MR. PEDERSON: Well, before you do that, 23 Mr. Chairman, there's one last point I would like 24 to bring up, and I think we should review the 25 ordinance related to surveillance systems in Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 34 1 taverns because, contrary to counsel's 2 representation, I believe that the police do have 3 a right to request video at any time and to take 4 it, and the licensee has to hand it over. I think 5 it's right in the ordinance. 6 MR. WHITCOMB: It's only for convenience 7 stores, and that's only after surveillance cameras 8 are installed after three incidents as reported by 9 the police department. 10 The police department can then 11 order by ordinance that the cameras be installed, 12 and it's that ordinance that says that the police 13 department or the store clerk must provide the 14 police department with a copy of the surveillance 15 results upon demand, but that only relates to 16 convenience stores, and that provision of the 17 ordinance expires in October of '09. 18 There's no similar provision for 19 surveillance cameras for, quote, generally retail 20 establishments that authorizes the police 21 department to obtain whatever is contained on 22 those reports. I looked into that, as well. 23 MR. PEDERSON: Unfortunately, I didn't 24 have the luxury of reviewing these ordinances 25 ahead of time. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 35 1 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair? 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Coggs. 3 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: While everything's 4 taking place, I just feel, number one, we hear 5 revocation cases all the time without the luxury 6 of seeing a videotape. So it blows my mind we're 7 sitting here for like 45 minutes arguing over 8 whether or not to use the videotape because if you 9 got a good case, it probably could be made without 10 it, number one. 11 Number two, since the police 12 department is seeing fit to go forward with these 13 revocation cases without much involvement of the 14 local alder-person, I just have to say, have your 15 stuff together. We've been sitting here 45 16 minutes arguing over whether or not a tower should 17 have been taken or not. This is blowing my mind. 18 The safety and security of the 19 people we represent and the people that we allow 20 to have licenses and how they manage their 21 establishment is of critical importance to all of 22 us here and to all of us aldermen who have to vote 23 and enter in on this. 24 But deciding whether or not -- it's 25 blowing my mind that the steps have been taken by Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 36 1 the police department to push for these things, 2 but time and time again, in different methods and 3 different ways, the cases are not fully together. 4 So we could research the ordinance 5 and the Chair can have a ruling to accept the tape 6 or not accept the tape and all of that, but this 7 is getting ridiculous. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'll echo the 9 frustration. I indicated that before the 10 hearing -- and furthermore, I even said before we 11 had adjourned there, that if the City Attorney's 12 office and the police department was trying to 13 build a case for revocation based on obstruction, 14 they were -- they were going down the wrong path. 15 Because I just -- as much as I'm 16 not making light of a concern, when we talk about 17 a vested property right, we better be talking 18 about health, safety and welfare so the issues -- 19 and there are other things in the complaint that 20 deal with health, safety and welfare issues; and 21 that I said should be the focus of the department, 22 who's going to make a complaint about shootings 23 and fights, and of other things that are 24 concerning, not an obstruction issue, because that 25 in and of itself is never going to, I believe, Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 37 1 force the Common Council to revoke a license. 2 Any other -- 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Yes. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Let's hear Alderman 5 Zielinski, and let's -- let's try to move forward. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. So my 7 understanding is is that the City Attorney is 8 researching the city ordinances as they pertain to 9 the surveillance videos, correct? We're waiting 10 for a response from him? 11 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Yeah. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm -- I'm literally 13 inclined, because I do believe, one, that it's 14 corroborating evidence in a complaint that has 15 been essentially agreed to, that they've agreed to 16 the measures in the complaint. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Let me ask this. 18 If basically counsel has agreed to stipulate to a 19 number of key points, what's -- what's the purpose 20 the City Attorney has for pursuing this? Is there 21 some additional evidence above and beyond what 22 counsel has stipulated to? 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'll let him answer 24 that, but if there were, it would have to be 25 specifically outlined in the complaint. If it's Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 38 1 not outlined in the complaint, it is not 2 permissible. 3 We are in -- when you seek a 4 revocation, you must have items that are 5 delineated in the complaint. Those become the 6 measures by which -- 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So his -- has he 8 stipulated to anything that is -- or has he not 9 stipulated to anything contained within the 10 complaint that you would like to bring forward? 11 MR. PEDERSON: Well, I guess I have to 12 begin by indicating that I believe that the 13 allegations in the complaint are necessary to give 14 notice as to the nature of the complaints. 15 I don't think that we have to 16 painfully go in every detail on every single 17 motion on what is to be shown. It's a noticed 18 document. 19 And so everything that I have 20 enumerated in the complaint would be depicted, but 21 there's also associating images that I feel 22 sufficiently should be shown to the committee and 23 found to be noticed because this is a noticed 24 document. 25 Secondly, I wanted to show the Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 39 1 document -- I mean, show the video because I think 2 there is a value to the committee in making its 3 determination. It's one thing for us to sit here 4 and read words on a paper and make stipulations. 5 It's another thing to see it for yourself. 6 And then the final point, Aldermen, 7 if you'll pardon me, even in his stipulations to 8 this point, he made argument such as saying that 9 Beverly was not the person, that you couldn't see 10 Hendrix shooting. All of that is false, and you 11 would see it if you watch the video. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Last question, 13 Mr. Chairman. 14 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. Can you 15 speak up a little bit? 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Last question. I 17 have a question for the applicants or the 18 applicants' attorneys. Was there any effort made 19 to rip out the surveillance camera? 20 MR. WHITCOMB: Yes. That has been 21 acknowledged. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. And why? 23 MR. WHITCOMB: For the obvious reason 24 that it might depict the disturbance that occurred 25 outside the tavern. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 40 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So it's based -- 2 MR. WHITCOMB: And that's part -- you 3 know, part and parcel of the obstruction. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: That's it. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf, if you 6 could provide with some brevity here a response to 7 that particular ordinance. 8 MR. SCHRIMPF: I think Mr. Whitcomb, 9 Mr. Chairman, was referring to that section of the 10 ordinance that's in 105 dealing with the 11 installation of security systems; and as I'm 12 quickly reading it, it applies in those cases 13 where the chief of police has requested that a 14 store owner install them, and it does apply 15 Class "B" taverns, if there were three or more 16 crimes at the retail establishment on three 17 separate days within a one-year period preceding, 18 and I take it that was not the situation here. 19 So I'm not sure that the section in 20 question really applies, but under those cases, 21 then yes, the chief of police can request that 22 they have copies of the video. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And I'm going to guess 24 that we can't stipulate that the chief of police 25 made that request nor that those guidelines were Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 41 1 met. 2 MR. PEDERSON: If that's the Chair's 3 holding, I'll -- we'll respect it. 4 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chairman? 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac. 6 ALDERMAN KOVAC: On this issue of 7 consent, the night that you tried to get the 8 tapes, Miss Nuell was -- said she was willing, but 9 not able to show you the tapes? I mean, because 10 she said -- you know, she may have been being 11 passive/aggressive about it, but she did 12 explicitly say, "I'd show you the tapes if I 13 could, but I can't"? Is that the -- 14 DETECTIVE O'DAY: I asked her about the 15 surveillance system. I was interviewing her 16 inside the tavern on the first floor. 17 She stated there is a surveillance 18 system, but she did not know how to operate it and 19 that one of her sons, I don't remember which one, 20 would be able to operate it for me. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So she expressed that 22 if she could get her son to operate it, then you 23 could see it was the implication of her -- 24 DETECTIVE O'DAY: That was my 25 understanding of what she said. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 42 1 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So there was consent. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: There was consent to 3 view, but the seizure is another issue, Alderman 4 Kovac. 5 I mean the Fourth Amendment is 6 illegal search and seizure. We are -- we are a 7 nation of laws. Whether you are a law enforcement 8 agency or not, you still have to comply with what 9 the law stipulates. 10 ALDERMAN KOVAC: I don't know the law; 11 Mr. Schrimpf does. It's my understanding 12 Mr. Schrimpf seemed to think he could defend this 13 in court if we watched the tape. So it's really 14 our judgment as a committee whether we want to see 15 the tape or not. 16 MR. SCHRIMPF: I do agree that it is the 17 committee judgment, and my remarks were aimed more 18 at the point of the fact that there was an exigent 19 circumstance here; and frankly, I think there is 20 evidence of that precisely because of the way the 21 tower had been ripped out of the system and the 22 way the police had to find it. 23 So there probably was a reasonable 24 expectation that if they wait for a warrant, it 25 might disappear. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 43 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't dispute that if 2 the police department walked in, was there for an 3 hour and decided they were going to walk out and 4 determined that. 5 If the police department stipulates 6 that they had been there for hours and then, in 7 addition to that, later that same morning obtained 8 a legal search warrant, it shows they have the 9 potential and the possibility of sitting there 10 and, if you want to call it that, baby-sitting the 11 evidence and then obtaining a legal search warrant 12 which they did. That's -- 13 MR. SCHRIMPF: This is a judgment call 14 well within the discretion of the committee. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Let's -- let's 16 try to not belabor this here, Alderman Zielinski. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I want to know from 18 the police department why they didn't do that. 19 DETECTIVE O'DAY: Why we didn't seek 20 search -- or seek a search warrant initially? 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Right. 22 DETECTIVE O'DAY: Because we were 23 searching the house for co-actors. I came upon it 24 as -- in a search incident to arrest. 25 Again, if the video had been Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 44 1 attached to the system, we would have asked to 2 view it, but I wasn't actively looking for video 3 then. I was looking for co-actors, and I found 4 evidence during that search. It was secured 5 underneath the bed. 6 My understanding was I didn't have 7 to have a search warrant, but since it was removed 8 from there, we did obtain a search warrant prior 9 to looking at it at a later date. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: See, I think 11 it's -- you know, personally, if they would have 12 viewed it prior to getting a search warrant, then 13 it would have been a different matter, but they 14 made -- they took extra pains and effort not to 15 view that until after they secured the search 16 warrant. So that's -- that's my observation. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The Chair's decision 18 will be to render the video evidence as not 19 admissible. Actually, there is the ability for 20 the committee to override that. 21 If there's a motion to actually 22 accept, I'll entertain that motion, but three 23 votes will rule the day, and that's fine. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I'll make the 25 motion. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 45 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Motion by 2 Alderman Zielinski would be to accept the 3 videographic evidence as admissible for use in the 4 particular hearing. 5 Are there objections to that 6 motion? My own. 7 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Objection. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The committee will 9 render that on a three to two vote as admissible. 10 And I'm going to presuppose already that your 11 objection will be duly noted to that, 12 Mr. Whitcomb, for the record. 13 MR. WHITCOMB: Provided that we're 14 talking about the video depictions that address 15 Paragraph 21 of the complaint. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, have to -- they 17 actually have to be points of the video that would 18 provide credence to those items that are listed in 19 the complaint, and that's -- Mr. Schrimpf, there 20 is no question about that, correct? 21 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, it certainly has to 22 be germane to the complaint. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Germane to the 24 complaint. You couldn't say, see, here's evidence 25 of somebody who was ripping off somebody. There's Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 46 1 no issue of there being thefts in the complaint. 2 MR. SCHRIMPF: Absolutely. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We picked that up as we 4 were looking through the 30 hours of tape. 5 You have the evidence. Why don't 6 you go ahead and present what -- 7 MR. PEDERSON: And you may suddenly do 8 an about-face on what we are about to proceed on 9 based on what I am just about to tell you. 10 Attaching it to the projector will 11 not work. It only works if it's on the screen, 12 not attached to the projector. So I don't know 13 exactly how we're going to do about it. I was 14 thinking that perhaps we could have the camera 15 zoom in on this laptop, and then everyone watch 16 the television screen. I don't know. 17 But if we can't do some other 18 accommodation, then, you know, I'm concerned that 19 the committee might want to move on simply because 20 there's technical issues. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Wasn't it just on the -- 22 MR. PEDERSON: Yes, but you can't 23 manipulate it. All you can do is let it play, and 24 we're not going to sit here for 36 hours. So we 25 can only manipulate it if it's not attached to the Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 47 1 projector. 2 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: It's been done 3 before. 4 MR. SCHRIMPF: Not for 36 hours. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Between 36 hours of 6 listening to it -- I would only consider it only 7 if that's the last option. 8 MR. SCHRIMPF: I gather what counsel is 9 saying is that you can't go to a predetermined 10 point on the -- 11 MR. PEDERSON: That's correct, when it's 12 attached to the projector. 13 MR. SCHRIMPF: Oh, boy. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Here's the -- I'll just 15 provide very brief commentary. My brief 16 commentary is when you make a case before a court, 17 you come with everything prepared. You go 18 through, and you make sure A plugs into B shows on 19 C, and you don't -- you know, this is no different 20 than if -- I'm certain if you were before a judge, 21 a judge would be scolding you beyond all belief 22 for not being ready. Am I -- 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman, I 24 agree with you 110 percent. I move 25 reconsideration of my previous motion because, you Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 48 1 know, you have to make sure that the technology is 2 going to be functional before you come before the 3 committee. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: This is a circus show. 5 MR. PEDERSON: To that extent, Aldermen, 6 I respect that, and Detective O'Day and I made 7 time during our week to make a dry run, and we 8 went through the entire video to do this. I did 9 not anticipate a problem with the projector, and 10 for that, I apologize. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Then I'll move 12 reconsideration. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Motion by Alderman 14 Zielinski is for reconsideration on the last 15 motion -- well -- 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: To reconsider this. 17 MR. PEDERSON: Although, if I could say, 18 I do believe zooming in on it might be a workable 19 solution. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Fine. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Let's do it. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: If it could be done 23 without any more technical problems or difficulty. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Boy, I don't know how we 25 could have -- maybe the clowns will start running Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 49 1 through the audience here and start juggling here. 2 If we can get any more of a sideshow -- 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Yeah, I agree. 4 This is getting ridiculous now. I'll just move 5 reconsideration. We don't have time for this. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Motion by Alderman 7 Zielinski is to recommend reconsideration of the 8 matter of the admission of the videographic 9 evidence. Is there any objection to that motion? 10 Okay. Now that -- hearing none, so 11 ordered. 12 Now we actually have the question 13 before us here, and at this point, I will 14 actually -- because the Chair was overruled, I'll 15 take a motion from the committee to -- to actually 16 prohibit the admission of the videographic 17 evidence. 18 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Well, we're not 19 (inaudible). I'm not going to do it. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, ultimately right 21 now it's been submitted, and it's listed in the 22 complaint. I think that it's probably clearer -- 23 it is probably cleaner to either wipe it out or 24 ultimately -- 25 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Can I make a motion Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 50 1 that given the technical situation, we're not 2 going to see it, you know? Given the fact that we 3 can't see it in a convenient way, we're just going 4 to move on and not do it. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I -- 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman, I'd 7 like to get the City Attorney's opinion on that. 8 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: What's the 9 difference? 10 MR. SCHRIMPF: I don't know that there's 11 any difference. 12 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Right. Well, then 13 let's just move to make the notion to prohibit it 14 and not quibble with the details. 15 MR. PEDERSON: Well, if I could be heard 16 on that, Alderman? 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't know. You don't 18 need to get his permission. You gotta get my 19 permission. 20 MR. PEDERSON: I apologize. You're 21 right, you're right. I apologize. Mr. Chair, if 22 I could be heard on that issue. 23 I think prohibiting it is a step 24 farther than we need to go, particularly since it 25 will knock out the stipulations made to -- in Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 51 1 Part 21 of the petition which are important here. 2 So I think if the committee were 3 simply to find that it's just not going to watch 4 it, the stipulation should stand, and we'll 5 proceed on that basis. 6 MR. WHITCOMB: I will not retract 7 anything I said before this committee today in 8 regard to Paragraph 21. 9 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair? 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Coggs. 11 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Schrimpf? 12 MR. SCHRIMPF: Yes, ma'am. 13 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: So what do you think 14 about this? 15 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, as -- as I 16 understand it, the committee right now is going 17 to -- is considering rejecting the video; however, 18 both parties agree, Mr. Pederson and Mr. Whitcomb, 19 that the proposed stipulation, if you want to put 20 it that way -- 21 MR. WHITCOMB: Or representation, yeah. 22 MR. SCHRIMPF: -- or representation that 23 Mr. Whitcomb put on the record can be accepted by 24 the committee and used by the committee in its 25 deliberations in this matter, and neither one is Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 52 1 objecting to the truth or veracity of it or the 2 factual basis of it. 3 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: So what would the 4 appropriate motion be then? 5 MR. SCHRIMPF: Pardon me? 6 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: What would be -- is 7 it good enough just from saying that or what would 8 the appropriate motion be? 9 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, the committee has 10 before -- well, you've moved into reconsideration. 11 So the question now is are you going to really I 12 guess view the videotape, and I guess the answer 13 is you're considering not viewing the videotape. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, then the question 15 is whether or not we accept it into evidence as 16 well, too, because right now it's sort of sitting 17 on the side where it has neither been accepted or 18 essentially stricken. 19 I mean, we can sit there and do 20 nothing and say it's still sitting on the side, 21 but there seems to be some measure of notice of it 22 in the complaint itself. 23 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, how I in the past 24 have handled things like this when I've been in 25 the position of the Chair is to say what we'll do Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 53 1 is create a rejected exhibits file, and so it's 2 now, if you will, part of the file in the case. 3 It's not really part of the record 4 because you're not going to consider it in 5 evidence, and you've simply put it in the rejected 6 exhibits file; and then later on, if one side or 7 the other believes that it should have been 8 considered, it is available for the reviewing 9 bodies to determine if this is something the body 10 should have considered in the original case. 11 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: What impact does that 12 have, Mr. Schrimpf, on the stipulation that they 13 both have made? 14 MR. SCHRIMPF: It doesn't affect the 15 stipulation at all. It doesn't at all. 16 SUPERVISOR COGGS: Okay. 17 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Mr. Chair, I will 18 make that motion. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Motion by Alderman 20 Hamilton would be to gather for acceptance as part 21 of a rejected exhibits file the videographic 22 evidence that was seized relating to the 23 incident -- shooting incident of -- let me see if 24 I can have a date on that. 25 MR. PEDERSON: 14th, December 14. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 54 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- on December 14th of 2 2008. Are there any objections to that motion? 3 Hearing none, so ordered. 4 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Mr. Chairman, if I 5 could just make a quick comment before you -- 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Please. Go ahead. 7 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Because oftentimes 8 we have some in-depth conversations about legal 9 matters and whether certain evidence is admissible 10 and what we should and should not hear, and I 11 think it is good for us to go through that, but I 12 think, you know -- for the most part, I think this 13 committee generally sides on trying to get the 14 best information to make an informed decision; and 15 I think it's important for us, if when all legally 16 possible, to hear everything. 17 I mean, we're representing a 18 broader community. We're talking about the health 19 and safety of a community, and I think, you know, 20 when cases are being brought to us, if you feel 21 that it's important for us to hear, it's important 22 for you to present it in a way that we get to -- 23 that we get to hear it. 24 And even -- and I know a lot of 25 times, you know, attorneys are just being Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 55 1 advocates for their -- for their clients, and 2 that's what you're supposed to do. I think it's 3 incumbent upon us, though, that, you know, we're 4 not sending people to prison, we're not -- we're 5 trying to make a decision for a broader community, 6 and, you know, oftentimes we ask people who are 7 seeking licenses to put in surveillance systems 8 for the purpose of sharing with police officers 9 when certain things happen. 10 We ask them to do this so that we 11 have good evidence when they come before us; and 12 sometimes we watch it and give them the 13 opportunity to present it at this committee. 14 Now, whether or not in a criminal 15 court that would be admissible and whether or not 16 we would want them to present evidence that would 17 be -- that would go against them in a court of law 18 is another -- is a whole other argument on a whole 19 other stage, and I think it's really important for 20 us to get the best information all the time when 21 it is available. 22 And I think that oftentimes that 23 information may be helpful to you at this 24 committee by being open and honest and sharing, 25 but we should be open to making the best decision Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 56 1 with the best information that's out there, 2 whenever legally possible. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Alderman 4 Hamilton. I agree with you. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman, you 6 know, I think that this -- you know, the cameras, 7 they're designed to help us promote the health, 8 safety and welfare of the community. 9 I don't think the cameras are there 10 or we're requiring cameras or would be requiring 11 cameras for the benefit of the tavern owners. We 12 have a responsibility -- you have a responsibility 13 to represent your clients zealously. 14 We have a responsibility to 15 represent the taxpayers in the City of Milwaukee, 16 to look out for their best interests in terms of 17 health, safety and general welfare; and if we 18 could have tools like cameras to help us, that's 19 what they're supposed to be used for. 20 And it's very uncomfortable for us 21 to deal with an entity that feels uncomfortable 22 sharing cameras with us. It's like, what are you 23 trying to hide? 24 But, you know, cameras are an 25 important crime-fighting tool, and I'd just say Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 57 1 I'd have to disagree with your perspective on the 2 purpose of cameras. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Like any 4 good circus, the show must go on. 5 So Mr. Pederson, why don't you 6 continue with your presentation. 7 MR. PEDERSON: Proceeding without the 8 video then? 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Please. 10 MR. PEDERSON: In that case, I think -- 11 I think it's fairly -- well, let me just start 12 over. 13 Under those circumstances, I don't 14 believe I have any more evidence to present. What 15 I do have is statements from Captain Jessup and a 16 statement from citizen Christina Mitchell, who was 17 involved in one of the incidents. 18 From there, I would propose to go 19 to closing arguments. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Do you want to call 21 someone forward here now? 22 MR. PEDERSON: Sure. I would call 23 Miss Christina Mitchell first. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If you have the ability, 25 because all the seats are taken, can we have you Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 58 1 utilize the standing microphone? 2 MS. MITCHELL: Uhm-hm. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If you could raise your 4 right hand, we'll swear you in, please. 5 (Witness sworn.) 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Your name and address 7 for our record, please? 8 THE WITNESS: Christina Mitchell, 9 3511 West Lisbon Avenue. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. And did you 11 want to try to lead some testimony here or 12 questions? 13 MR. PEDERSON: Sure. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If you could just make 15 certain, Mr. Pederson, that you use the 16 microphones here, please. 17 MR. PEDERSON: Absolutely. 18 CHRISTINA MITCHELL, 19 called as a witness herein, having been first duly 20 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 21 DIRECT EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. PEDERSON: 23 Q Miss Mitchell, are you familiar with the All Stars 24 bar located at 4001 West Fond du Lac Avenue in the 25 City of Milwaukee? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 59 1 A Yes, I am. 2 Q Have you ever been there? 3 A Yes, I have. 4 Q In fact, were you there in early January of this 5 year? 6 A Yes, I was. 7 Q Was there an incident that occurred there that 8 involved some violence? 9 A Yes, there was. 10 Q Could you please describe that incident to us? 11 A Well, I was at the bar, and -- I had just came in, 12 and it was a young lady there, and she was being 13 real rowdy with me. 14 And as for myself, I'm an 15 upstanding citizen, I have a place of my own, and 16 I basically came to the owner and let him know of 17 the situation at hand and if he wanted me to leave 18 the premises, then I would, but he stated that he 19 can handle it, and he went back there to do so. 20 But in the process of it all, he 21 came back to me, grabbed me by my neck, throwing 22 me to the floor; and at that point, him and his 23 other bouncers that worked at the location came 24 and also stopped me and kicked me. 25 Whereas, after I left that place -- Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 60 1 as I was leaving out the front door, the mom was 2 standing at the door stating that you Bs should 3 not come back in here and not even caring about 4 the safety and the welfare of what just happened. 5 One of the brothers did. He walked me outside, 6 and he made sure -- you know, he gave us his 7 number to state that, you know, call me, we'll go 8 for lunch or breakfast, you know, in regards to 9 this and take care of that. 10 But I told him that he couldn't buy 11 me off. He couldn't take care of me in regards to 12 this because I felt violated. I went to the 13 hospital after the fact. I have pictures with 14 bruises. I sent them also down to the district 15 attorney, but they felt that since I didn't have 16 any broken bones, that it wasn't enough evidence 17 to charge them with battery or whatnot. So he had 18 just got a ticket for that incident. 19 But I just feel that these people 20 don't care about the safety and the welfare of the 21 people who come into their location. I'm not a 22 regular there, but when I do the past times, I 23 enjoyed myself. 24 It's just this time it was just a 25 problem, and I wasn't all obnoxious, and I wasn't Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 61 1 acting crazy. It was just the fact that -- I 2 don't know what happened. It just -- it turned 3 for the worse, and then I wanted to call the 4 police. They didn't want to call the police to 5 their establishment. 6 So at that point I didn't have my 7 cell phone. I had to go to my facility, and then 8 I called the police, and I went to the St. Mary's 9 Hospital where the police met me. 10 MR. PEDERSON: I suppose that's 11 sufficient, and I suppose I need to correct 12 myself. That is evidence as -- her statement is 13 evidence as related to Item 29 in the petition. 14 And I don't have any further direct questions for 15 her. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are there any questions 17 committee members have for this witness? 18 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chairman? 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Coggs. 20 EXAMINATION 21 BY ALDERWOMAN COGGS: 22 Q Which brother initially came up to you? 23 A Was fighting me, Eddie -- Eddie Nuell. 24 Q And he's the one who you said initially came up 25 and said he would resolve the situation? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 62 1 A Yes. 2 Q And you don't know what happened in between saying 3 he would resolve and then come to fight you? 4 A He went to the young lady, and I don't know what 5 she said to him, but when he came back to me, it 6 was, "B, you up outta here," and grabbed me by my 7 neck. 8 And in the process of that, I went 9 to the -- back and fell into the bathroom onto the 10 bathroom floor. And him and his bouncers, like I 11 say, were stomping me. It was other people that 12 was there that knew me, but they just don't get 13 into issues like this, so they wouldn't talk to 14 the police. They wouldn't defend me. So I'm just 15 basically here for myself. 16 Q Just for the record, the brother who gave you his 17 number and walked you out and all of that, who was 18 that? 19 A Marcus. 20 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions by the 22 committee? 23 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman, just very 24 briefly? 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 63 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. SCHRIMPF: 3 Q Do you recall what these individuals said to you 4 while you were in the bathroom? 5 A What you -- they was punching me and kicking me, 6 and I was bruised up. Like I say, I went to the 7 hospital. She noted all my bruises and that I be 8 swollen, you know, even further past that night. 9 So that was just basically it. I 10 was just telling them that I wasn't drunk, that I 11 could walk out of the establishment, and I just 12 think I didn't feel treated fairly. 13 Q But you don't recall if they said anything to you 14 other than kicking you? 15 A No, no. He didn't say anything. 16 I had hit him in his lip, so his 17 lip was busted. So he stayed back, he bust my 18 lip, and he was going crazy. Then after the fact, 19 everything had calmed down, I walked out the 20 front, he come out the side door, and "Aw, I'm 21 gonna do this to her, and I'm gonna do that." 22 That's when the brother stated, "Go inside, you 23 know. You go inside. You out of order." 24 You know, and like I said, he being 25 the manager, being the owner of the club or Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 64 1 whatever establishment, he should have took -- he 2 should've took it in a better manner as far as 3 making sure that I was safe, making sure that my 4 friend was safe, instead of just trying -- just to 5 say we were the problems and kicking us out. 6 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's all I have, 7 Mr. Chairman. Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions by the 9 committee? Mr. Whitcomb, any questions of this 10 witness? 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. WHITCOMB: 13 Q Were you drinking that night? 14 A Yes, I was. 15 Q How long were you in the bar before the incident 16 occurred? 17 A Not even 30 minutes. I had only had one drink, 18 and I didn't even finish it because he snatched it 19 out of my hand. 20 Q How much did you have to drink before you arrived 21 at the bar? 22 A We just came from a chicken wing place, so I was 23 eating. So I didn't have anything to drink. I 24 was going to eat, and then we went there after to 25 drink. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 65 1 Q Did anyone at the bar refuse to serve you alcohol? 2 A No. That was our first drink. 3 MR. WHITCOMB: Nothing further, 4 Mr. Chairman. I'm sorry. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 6 MR. PEDERSON: No -- no cross. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Very good. 8 Thank you so much. Mr. Pederson, any others? 9 MR. PEDERSON: Yes. I would like 10 Captain Jessup to be able to provide a statement 11 as commander of District 7, and then I'll make my 12 closing argument. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 14 Captain Jessup, we're going to need 15 to swear you in. 16 (Witness sworn.) 17 CAPTAIN JESSUP: Good morning, and I'm 18 only going to take a couple minutes of your time, 19 but I just want to explain the department's 20 position as it relates to taverns and disorder in 21 the city. 22 I did speak with Miss Nuell in the 23 days prior to this revocation hearing and 24 explained the procedure to her and our position on 25 this. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 66 1 We would hold that with the 2 privilege of a tavern license in the City of 3 Milwaukee, that there are certain responsibilities 4 that are -- that are understood by the tavern 5 owner. One would be that they provide a safe 6 environment for the patrons and for the neighbors 7 as well. 8 On both counts, we did not see this 9 happening. We had citizens going to this tavern 10 with the expectation that they could interact with 11 others in a safe manner and that they would have 12 security on site that would add to the 13 professional manner to ensure that that happened. 14 We were not seeing that from the police 15 perspective. 16 In addition to that, we would 17 expect that they would understand the 18 responsibility to cooperate and assist the police 19 when you have these unfortunate incidents of 20 violence occurring in an establishment such as 21 this. 22 When that violent incident 23 occurred, the shooting outside the tavern which 24 started inside the tavern, not only did they not 25 cooperate, but the employees and owners took Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 67 1 active and intentional measures to frustrate our 2 investigation by hiding evidence and providing 3 false information to the police officers. 4 Those are very obvious problems 5 that we need to address as a police department, 6 and for those reasons, we would object to the 7 license. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 9 Mr. Schrimpf -- Captain Jessup, if 10 you would just hold. There may be questions for 11 you. 12 My one question or concern here -- 13 and namely, Captain Jessup here provided really 14 nothing more than sort of a general overview as to 15 why the department was pursuing this, but really 16 nothing more in terms of evidence. 17 My question for you is the amended 18 sworn charges stipulate that the complaint is 19 lodged by Captain Patrick Mitchell on behalf of 20 the chief of police. There has since been a 21 transfer in the department. 22 Captain Jessup here has succeeded 23 Captain Mitchell, who has been transferred to a 24 different department or a different district 25 station. Does that present any difficulties for Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 68 1 us in terms of the City Attorney's office 2 presenting its case here? 3 MR. WHITCOMB: Mr. Chairman, maybe I can 4 short-circuit that. We would have no objection to 5 the presentation by the captain as -- 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Because it was very 7 general. 8 MR. WHITCOMB: -- made today. I would 9 view it as being argument on behalf of the 10 department, not necessarily evidentiary, and we 11 take no issue based upon the argument. 12 MR. SCHRIMPF: Right. And at the time 13 that the complaint was executed, which is February 14 of 2009, and there has been this delay, I assume 15 Captain Patrick Mitchell was indeed the commander 16 of District 7. 17 MR. PEDERSON: He was. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I still am wondering if 19 the complaints themselves ought to stipulate that 20 the City Attorney's office will act on behalf of 21 the chief of police in the future; should it 22 specifically state that if the District Attorney's 23 office is going to be the pursuer of making the 24 presentation. 25 MR. PEDERSON: I'm not sure if I Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 69 1 completely understand, but it does indicate in the 2 petition that we are -- the chief of police is -- 3 is the one doing the complaining here by his 4 designee, the commander of District 7. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Who is not present. 6 MR. PEDERSON: But the chief can elect a 7 different designee at different points. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Which ought to be 9 stipulated in the complaint is what I'm telling 10 you. 11 I'm not an attorney. I just play 12 one on TV, but I oftentimes think I hit the 13 bull's-eye and a lot of judges I believe would 14 agree with me. Mr. Schrimpf tells me that 15 sometimes. 16 Any questions that the committee 17 members have of Captain Jessup? 18 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chairman? 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac. 20 ALDERMAN KOVAC: We had a couple of 21 events -- couple nights discussed in real detail, 22 the night of the shooting, and the later 23 obstruction, then this other fight that happens. 24 Is the department saying this 25 obviously goes to nights when there's particularly Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 70 1 a shooting that's been motivated primarily 2 [inaudible], but have there been other problems 3 that the department's aware chronically with this 4 establishment? 5 MR. WHITCOMB: Mr. Chairman, I would 6 object to the question. It would be appropriate 7 at a renewal hearing, but because that question 8 could generate a response which is outside of the 9 allegations contained in the complaint, I would 10 object to the question. 11 And generally from the department's 12 perspective, are there other problems with the 13 establishment other than those contained in the 14 complaint? I don't think that's a proper 15 question, the answer to which I would want on this 16 record. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And I think we have 18 concurrence with the City Attorney. 19 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Okay. Fair enough. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions from the 21 committee? 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Chairman? 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Zielinski? 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Officer, you made 25 mention of the fact that there is various efforts Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 71 1 afoot by the licensee and their staff that made 2 your investigation difficult and so forth. 3 Can you specify or detail specific 4 examples in terms of what they did that led you to 5 that conclusion? 6 CAPTAIN JESSUP: Initially, on the night 7 in question where the shooting occurred and the 8 video camera equipment was torn from the wall, 9 that is one very serious part of the equation 10 there when we are looking for evidence to 11 determine what exactly happened at this 12 establishment. We would really expect and hope 13 that the owners would assist us in any way 14 possible. 15 The opposite occurred on that 16 night. Not only did they not assist us, but they 17 took active measures to hide and destroy evidence 18 that would have been very helpful early in the 19 investigation to provide for the safety of the 20 others at the scene. 21 In addition to that, the employees 22 and the owners provided false information to the 23 detectives and the officers at that location 24 which, again, allowed for evidence potentially to 25 be lost or destroyed during the early minutes and Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 72 1 hours of the investigation. 2 As all of you know, the early 3 portion of the investigation is the most important 4 time for the officers and detectives to gather 5 evidence to determine exactly what happened. 6 When we have situations like this 7 where the employees and owners are the ones that 8 are not cooperating and providing false 9 information and destroying evidence, we really 10 have no faith that in the future that we could 11 hope that they would provide a safe environment 12 for the citizens of Milwaukee. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions? 15 Mr. Whitcomb? 16 MR. WHITCOMB: Nothing further, 17 Mr. Chairman. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Any additional questions 19 from you, Mr. Pederson? 20 MR. PEDERSON: No, no. Thank you, 21 Mr. Chair. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Captain. 23 Mr. Pederson, anyone else that you 24 wish to bring forward or any other evidence that 25 you want to present at this time? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 73 1 MR. PEDERSON: No. Thank you, 2 Mr. Chair. I'm prepared to go to closing 3 arguments if counsel has nothing to present. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If you have anything 5 else -- if you have anything to present here, 6 Mr. Whitcomb, we'll provide that opportunity. 7 MR. WHITCOMB: Yes. If the committee 8 recalls, I made a representation on behalf of my 9 clients, to which my client indicated under oath 10 by Mr. Kovac's question is what I said was true -- 11 or maybe it was Alderman Hamilton -- she said, 12 "Yes." 13 As regards to the incident to which 14 was testified by Miss Mitchell, both the brothers 15 who were involved in the incident, Mr. Eddie Nuell 16 and Marcus Nuell, are here today, together with 17 the bartender -- bartendress who was there that 18 evening which would substantiate what I 19 represented to this committee before regarding 20 that incident. 21 We can do that by testimony or I 22 can recite, once again, our presentation of what 23 happened at that time to abbreviate the matter. 24 If that particular incident would 25 be determinative of the extent of what this Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 74 1 committee may do, then perhaps we should have 2 witnesses. If not, then perhaps a representation 3 by me affirmed by my clients would be sufficient. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I think that it may be 5 better to have those individuals come forward. 6 Sir, if you could take the stand, 7 please. We'll have to swear you in. If you could 8 raise your right hand, please. 9 (Witnesses sworn.) 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: State your name and your 11 address first just for our record. 12 THE WITNESS: Marcus Nuell, address 13 8135 West Muriel Place, Milwaukee, Wisconsin 14 53218. 15 MARCUS NUELL, 16 called as a witness herein, having been first duly 17 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 18 DIRECT EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. WHITCOMB: 20 Q Mr. Nuell, directing your attention to the evening 21 of July 3rd -- January 3rd, 2009, at about 1:00 in 22 the morning with Miss Mitchell, who was inside of 23 the tavern, I understand that based on her 24 testimony and what you've represented, you 25 assisted her in walking her out of the tavern? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 75 1 A Correct. 2 Q Would you please describe what you saw before that 3 involving Miss Mitchell? 4 A Okay. They were located at the bar. 5 Q When you say "they," you're talking about 6 Miss Mitchell and Scott? 7 A Correct. 8 Q Miss Scott? 9 A I don't know if I could speak to anybody else, but 10 the issue with Miss Mitchell was that she had some 11 prior issues with another patron that was in 12 there, and that's where the problem originated 13 from. So it was brought to our attention that 14 that problem was in there. So Miss Mitchell was 15 kind of getting, you know, loud. 16 So we came down there and talked to 17 her, and like the bartenders were even saying that 18 she was down there cussing at everybody and just 19 being like a nuisance or whatever. So Eddie, my 20 brother, did walk up to her and asked her to calm 21 down, whatever, you know, see what the problem is, 22 see what's the issue at hand, whatever. 23 While he was looking into it, she 24 was still, you know, talking loud, just kind of 25 being disrespectful. I'm not saying full blown Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 76 1 disrespectful, but it was like a few words they 2 would say here and there. 3 You know, it got to the point where 4 we asked her to leave because it was -- you know, 5 we had two different people here that had a prior 6 history of something we didn't know nothing about, 7 and we didn't want to know nothing about, but we 8 just wanted to cease the problem at hand. 9 So we had asked Miss Mitchell to 10 leave, and that's when she got just real rowdy and 11 told us that she wasn't going anywhere. That's 12 when we took her -- we tried to escort her out the 13 building, you know, reasonably, but then she 14 got just -- I mean, for myself I saw it. She just 15 got real just out of hand, and it was like no, she 16 not leaving, ain't nobody touching her, ain't 17 nobody touch her, she's not leaving. 18 That's when a little scuffle began 19 when they was trying to take her out and ended up 20 in the bathroom where she ended up falling, and 21 this is where I stepped in because she fell into 22 the men's bathroom, and I didn't want -- you know, 23 I didn't want no woman in the men's bathroom, 24 first of all, so I stepped in. I cleared the 25 bathroom out myself. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 77 1 And I told Miss Mitchell, I was 2 like, "Just stand up." She don't want nobody 3 touching her. I tell her, "I'm going to help you 4 get up," you know what I'm saying, off the ground 5 because the floor was wet or whatever. "So that's 6 why I'm helping you off the ground, I'm going to 7 walk you outside myself. You don't say -- you 8 don't want nobody touching you, saying anything to 9 you." 10 And I just wanted to get her 11 outside, and that's when I walked her outside. 12 Like as far as anybody walking up to her and just 13 grabbing her and all that other stuff, that -- 14 that did not go on. That did not happen. 15 Q Did you see anyone punch her or hit her? 16 A No. It was just a scuffle, but I was just trying 17 to get her out of the bar because she didn't want 18 to leave. She thought she didn't have to leave. 19 She was told that she had to leave and that she 20 wasn't leaving. 21 We was just telling her, you know, 22 just walk outside. We're gonna walk outside, and 23 that's when I stepped up because I didn't want 24 her, you know -- because there was so much going 25 on, everybody was just trying to figure out what Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 78 1 was going on, and they was all in the men's 2 bathroom. You can't see too much in the bathroom 3 if you're in the bar. It was just a lot, you 4 know. So I just stepped up, and I wanted to get 5 her outside of the bar, so we could just clear 6 everything out. So we didn't have all that going 7 on in the inside. 8 Q Miss Mitchell testified that she hit your brother, 9 Eddie Nuell, in the mouth and gave him a bloody 10 lip. 11 Did you see that occur? 12 A That was when they fell in the bathroom. 13 Q How did that occur? What precipitated that? 14 A Because they were just scuffling, you know, 15 because he was trying to grab her and put her 16 outside the bar or whatever. 17 She was, you know, pushing back, 18 told her she wasn't leaving. So when all that was 19 going on, they standing more towards the back. 20 That's when they fell in the bathroom. That's 21 when his lip got busted or whatever. And then so 22 as we got outside, she -- 23 MR. PEDERSON: No other questions. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions first by the 25 committee? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 79 1 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chairman? 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Coggs first. 3 EXAMINATION 4 BY ALDERWOMAN COGGS: 5 Q Who ripped the surveillance camera thing out? 6 A It wasn't me. That's all I could say. 7 Q Do you know who did? 8 A No. I don't know who did that because the 9 arriving officer which was -- I forgot his name, I 10 can't remember his name, but the officer that 11 originally pulled up when that whole incident 12 started, he wouldn't let me be -- that's why I had 13 stopped him when I was outside before all this had 14 even started. I had stopped, too, and he had came 15 back. 16 When the shooting happened, he came 17 back. He was on the phone, and he asked me did I 18 hear any gunshots, and I just pointed to the -- I 19 got a call from the hospital saying somebody just 20 left here got shot. So then he got out of his 21 car, and he told me I couldn't go anywhere. He 22 told me to stay by his side. 23 So after that, I didn't leave the 24 officer's side from that point. I never went 25 upstairs after that. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 80 1 Q Did you offer Miss Mitchell your number and offer 2 to take her out to lunch or breakfast and ask her 3 not to call the police? 4 A No. What I asked her to do was I walked her 5 outside, her and her friend, and I told her -- you 6 know, because she was like, "We're going to shut 7 y'all down, and you guys think it's game. We're 8 gonna get y'all shut down." 9 So I just took her out there 10 because, you know, it was still -- the bar was 11 still open. There were still other people in the 12 bar, so I had to get back in the bar. So I told 13 her just take my number down, call me, and we'll 14 just talk about what the problem was because I 15 didn't know what the problem was. 16 And then that's when I find out the 17 next day that it was a problem with another patron 18 in there from some prior employment between them 19 two. You know what I'm saying? That's what the 20 original problem came from, so -- I mean, as far 21 as all that. 22 Then over the phone it was her and 23 her friend that she was there with, and they was 24 just telling me like they feel that we owe them 25 something because of what happened. That's what Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 81 1 they told me. They felt like we owed them 2 something, and I asked her by -- you know what I'm 3 saying? How does that [inaudible]. 4 When I thought about the situation, 5 I was like, how do you feel we owe you something 6 when you know you have a problem with somebody 7 else? We didn't know nothing about it. You know 8 what I'm saying? I know other persons shootin' 9 had altercation with, but I didn't know at the 10 time that that's what it was about. 11 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf? 13 MR. SCHRIMPF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 14 EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. SCHRIMPF: 16 Q Mr. Nuell, I want to make sure I understood your 17 testimony. It was to the effect that your brother 18 Eddie got a bloody lip; is that right? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And how did that occur again? I didn't quite 21 follow -- you were talking about -- 22 A That occurred when -- as we was trying to put her 23 out because we was trying to take her out the bar. 24 She -- she didn't want to leave, and she, you 25 know, got to pushing people off of her, you know, Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 82 1 just and was -- if you pushing off security, 2 they're going to grab you and get you outside the 3 bar. You know what I'm saying? 4 It's not like they just walked up 5 to her saying come on, we're taking you out the 6 bar. That did not happen. We asked her once, and 7 she didn't want to leave. That's when she got up 8 outta her chair, "I'm not going nowhere." 9 She was sitting -- where she was 10 located is approximately in the middle of the bar, 11 directly in the middle of the bar because that's 12 where the bathrooms are at. So when she got up, 13 she just -- it was real hectic because she was 14 just all over the place because for her to end up 15 in the men's bathroom from where she was sitting 16 is pretty hard because that's nowhere from the 17 door. That's two opposite directions. You know 18 what I'm saying? You're trying to come to the 19 door into the bathroom. 20 Q But I still don't understand how Eddie got a 21 bloody lip. 22 A When they was scuffling and stuff because she was 23 swinging on people telling them -- everybody, 24 ain't nobody puttin' her out. She didn't want to 25 leave. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 83 1 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, okay. Thank you. 2 I think that will take care of it, Mr. Chairman. 3 Are there questions by the committee? 4 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chairman? 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Coggs. 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY ALDERWOMAN COGGS: 8 Q So you're the security manager? 9 A No. I'm not a manager at all. 10 Q Aren't you Marcus? 11 A Uhm-hm, yes. 12 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Okay. Thank you. 13 MR. PEDERSON: If I may, Mr. Chairman? 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If I may, any other 15 questions by the committee? Mr. Pederson. 16 MR. PEDERSON: Thank you. Somewhat in 17 response to Alderman Coggs' last question, I 18 believe she may have been referring to Item 2 in 19 the petition where it's alleged in there that 20 Marcus Nuell was the security manager. 21 That was placed in there pursuant 22 to statements made by him and the two police 23 officers, and that included the police reports, 24 and then obviously included in the petition. 25 What I can tell you from my Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 84 1 knowledge in speaking to counsel and reviewing the 2 reports is that he does have a bartender's 3 license. So it's undisputed that he does work at 4 the licensed premises, and I don't know if that 5 would assist the alderwoman in her questioning. 6 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 7 MR. PEDERSON: As for my 8 cross-examination -- 9 MR. WHITCOMB: Mr. Nuell wanted to 10 respond. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You wanted to respond to 12 some of the -- 13 MR. MARCUS NUELL: Yeah. I do have a 14 bartender's license. As far as security, that's 15 not my field. 16 I do have a bartender's license, 17 but I haven't even been bartending. I wasn't even 18 bartending when that happened. Anything from 19 December on -- I had a motorcycle accident, so I 20 couldn't bartend. So I haven't been working, 21 period. You know what I'm saying? I be there, 22 but like that's as far as -- I leave. Four-hour 23 shifts, I usually sit on the door or sit behind 24 the bar from this time to this time. I wasn't 25 doing that at the time of all of this. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 85 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. PEDERSON: 3 Q To that issue, Mr. Nuell, were you in the bar on 4 the evening of December 14th when the first 5 shooting occurred? 6 A Uhm-hm. 7 Q Were you working that night? 8 A No. I was there. I wasn't working. 9 Q Well, didn't you get involved in a situation with 10 security and assist security? 11 A Right. I had to step up because the security was 12 outside having a hard trouble. 13 Q Didn't you punch one of the customers in the face? 14 A Uhm-hm. 15 Q And that was in assistance of security? 16 A No. 17 Q Then what was it? 18 A Because the thing with him was he was trying to 19 get back in the bar where I was standing there. 20 I'm standing right in front of this man. You know 21 what I'm saying? There's only so much I could do. 22 Q Right. But my point is is you punched him in the 23 face at a point to assist the bar in a security 24 capacity? You didn't just punch him in the face 25 for the fun of it or did you? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 86 1 A No, I didn't do it for the fun of it. 2 Q Right. You did it as, you thought, a necessary 3 and appropriate step as security? 4 A Actually, I wasn't -- the bar -- I came outside 5 when all the arguing was going on. Then it came 6 to the point where he was right in front of me 7 arguing with me. 8 You know, I'm standing here with 9 another man arguing. I'm not in no situation to 10 be fighting nobody, first of all. Second of all, 11 you know what I'm saying? He made me feel real 12 uncomfortable with how close he was and all that 13 other stuff. That's why all that happened. 14 Q Okay. I'd like to move on to just a couple other 15 matters, Mr. Nuell. 16 Did you ever make a statement to 17 police officers that -- regarding the incidents 18 occurring on December 14th that your mother, the 19 licensee, Miss Jennie Nuell, was aware of the 20 incident revolving the shooting and the hiding of 21 the video surveillance camera and all the other 22 incidents that happened that evening? Did you 23 ever make that statement? 24 A That I said she was aware of it? 25 Q Yes. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 87 1 A No. 2 Q So is it then your position that if a police 3 officer indicated in his report that he asked you 4 that question and you said that she was aware, 5 that he must be mistaken? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Did an officer ever ask you that question? 8 A The question about whether she know what was going 9 on? 10 Q Correct. 11 A Yes. 12 Q And what was your response? 13 A I said no because that was one of the other 14 questions as far as her knowing how to work the 15 security camera. I told her she has got to know 16 how to do that. That was along with other 17 questions as far as her knowing how to work the 18 security camera. I told her she does not know how 19 to do that. 20 Q Do you have any idea why that mistake would be 21 made? 22 A No, I don't. 23 Q Regarding the incident with Miss Christina 24 Mitchell, is it your position that she was never 25 forcibly handled by yourself or anyone else in the Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 88 1 bar? 2 A No, I didn't touch her. I didn't touch 3 Miss Mitchell. 4 I walked in the bathroom, and I 5 stood right by Miss Mitchell, and I told her, "I'm 6 gonna help you up." I told her, "I'm not gonna 7 grab you. I'm not here to try to push you out or 8 nothin'. I'm gonna help you up, walk you out, so 9 don't nobody just touch you." 10 That's exactly what I told her. I 11 said, "Ain't nobody going to touch anybody. Walk 12 with me, and we'll walk outside." 13 Q All right. So then is it correct to say that 14 based on your observations that evening, no one in 15 the bar grabbed her or hit her or did anything 16 that would possibly cause an injury or bruising to 17 her; is that correct? 18 A I mean, they was trying to grab her and put her 19 out, and that's when she put up a little fight 20 because she felt like she didn't have to go 21 nowhere. 22 So I mean, it was some grabbing 23 going on, but not none, you know, as far as 24 somebody walkin' just up to her and just grabbing 25 her out of her chair or anything like that. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 89 1 The only time that the security 2 actually tried to physically touch her when they 3 told her she had to leave, and she said she didn't 4 want to leave. 5 MR. PEDERSON: That's all I have for 6 cross. 7 EXAMINATION 8 BY CHAIRMAN BOHL: 9 Q Now, were you present for any witnessing any of 10 that? 11 A What? The Miss Mitchell issue? 12 Q Yes. 13 A Yeah. 14 Q So you actually saw the other security. 15 Now, I know you came after the fact 16 and probably helping her -- her up out of the 17 bathroom and escorting her out. 18 A Right. 19 Q Did you witness the sort of tussle? Were you 20 sitting there present? 21 A Right. I was sitting right there because where 22 she's at, this is the bar, then you got the pool 23 table. Then it was the bathroom. So I was 24 sitting right there by the pool table. 25 When the argument started, they Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 90 1 started, you know, just gradually gettin' up 2 there. Then all of a sudden, they got to the 3 point where they told her to leave, and she didn't 4 wanna go. So when they started grabbin' her, 5 that's where I started really paying attention. I 6 was like, okay, what's going on. 7 And as I'm moving closer to the 8 little situation, that's when everybody just 9 starting moving toward the back because they was 10 trying to get her out, and she was just refusing 11 to leave. It became a little scuffle when we 12 tried to get her out the bar because she said she 13 wasn't going nowhere. 14 Q Did you witness punches being thrown either way or 15 was it more tussling of trying to pull -- pull 16 back? 17 A It's like that -- it's like when security try to 18 grab you and take you out, you know what I'm 19 saying, and then you're doing all this trying to 20 push security off of you. You know, that's what 21 that was. It wasn't like they was really trying 22 to fight each other. They was trying to pull her 23 out, and she was just trying to refuse to leave 24 basically. She did not want to leave whatsoever. 25 She felt she did not have to leave. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 91 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Are there 2 follow-up questions? 3 MR. WHITCOMB: Nothing further. 4 MR. PEDERSON: No, thank you. 5 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: I'm sorry. 6 Mr. Chair? 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Hamilton. 8 EXAMINATION 9 BY ALDERMAN HAMILTON: 10 Q For the event on the 14th of December, the 11 shooting incident, in the complaint they say that 12 you flagged down the police officer -- 13 A Uhm-hm. 14 Q -- after the shots were fired? 15 A Before. 16 Q It was before shots were fired? 17 A Uhm-hm. 18 Q So it was after the fight, but before shots were 19 fired? 20 A Uhm-hm. 21 Q And how many times were shots fired? Twice? 22 A I'm not even -- 23 Q I mean, the shots fired, they shot a gun in the 24 air, they left. Then they came back and then 25 exchanged fire. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 92 1 A That, I'm not sure of. I'm not sure how you 2 explained that. 3 Q In the complaint it says that -- that you 4 flagged down -- that you flagged down the police 5 shortly after the shooting had occurred, and you 6 told the police that there were three men driving 7 around that had already left? 8 A I had done that before the shooting after the 9 fight because I had flagged him down and told him 10 we just had a problem out here, there was this guy 11 running around. 12 Matter of fact, the car had drove 13 past because -- and I stopped him right in the 14 middle of Fond du Lac, and I had walked out to the 15 street, and I was sitting there telling him what 16 was going on, and I asked him if he could just sit 17 where he was sittin' until everybody got let out, 18 and he told me okay, I'm gonna patrol the 19 neighborhood. As I'm telling him that, the car 20 had drove by, and I told him, there's the car 21 right there. 22 Q So no shots had been fired at that time point? 23 A Correct. So then when I told him that, he was all 24 kind of like I'll check into it. So as he goes by 25 the car -- and we were on the corner. And he goes Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 93 1 around, then I don't see him for -- until after 2 the shooting. I don't see him. 3 Then when he came back right before 4 he told me that he had got a call that the man was 5 at the hospital or whatever, he had told me -- I 6 asked him, "Did you see what I was talking about?" 7 He was like, "Yeah, but by the time I got over 8 there, he was out the car, so there wasn't too 9 much I could do." That's what he told me. 10 And then as we're sitting there 11 talking about it, he tells me -- like he gets this 12 call, and then he tells me -- then he gets out as 13 he's receiving his call. He gets out, and he 14 tells me, okay, well, just stand right here 15 because I just got a call saying that the man is 16 in the hospital. So then I ain't leave his side 17 after that. I couldn't leave because he told me I 18 couldn't go nowhere. 19 Q Now I'm kind of confused because I -- the picture 20 that I had was that, you know, you had this 21 incident, there was a fight, he pulled out a gun, 22 and he shot some fire -- gunfire into the air. 23 They left the scene at that point. 24 Then they came back to the club, and then there 25 was an exchange of gunfire. Is that what happened Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 94 1 or no? 2 A I'm not sure about that one. 3 Q How did it happen? 4 A Because from what I recall, when we put them out, 5 they stood outside arguing among themselves for 6 another minute. They was arguing with they selves 7 after we done put them out. They kept trying to 8 come back while we was telling them, I'm not -- 9 y'all not coming back in. You know what I'm 10 saying? 11 Once you put -- once we put 12 somebody out, it's no coming back later, none of 13 that. You know what I'm saying? Once we put you 14 out, it's for good. And they just thought I 15 didn't want 'em to come back in. 16 So I mean, after that, I mean, when 17 they got put out the first time, I wasn't outside. 18 I came outside after they came back supposedly the 19 second time, and they were still trying to get in 20 because in our bar, we have like about 12, 13 TVs, 21 and one of the TVs showed about three different 22 views of the bars, two were inside and one was on 23 the front door. 24 And when I looked at the TV, I seen 25 that they was back out there arguing with security Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 95 1 again, and they was all on the steps. You know 2 what I'm saying? We try to keep our stairs clear 3 from the people standing out there. So by them 4 standing out there, that's what made me come 5 outside to see what was going on. 6 They was -- they was just right 7 there on the steps just arguing, standing arguing 8 about why you want to come back in and all this 9 other stuff. I don't know. 10 Q And then you came out. That's when the fight 11 occurred? 12 A That's when the fight to me -- 13 Q They left after that? 14 A -- occurred, right. 15 Q They left after that? 16 A Right. 17 Q Then that's when they were circling driving -- 18 A That's when I stopped the officer. 19 Q And that's why you stopped the officer and the 20 officer left? 21 A He left saying he wanted to check on -- he say he 22 goin' to circle the neighborhood. 23 Q Then they came back? 24 A Sure. That's when he came back like that, and I 25 just heard the gunshot. I don't know. I just Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 96 1 went inside because when I came back outside, he's 2 like, well, I just got a call saying there's a man 3 in the hospital, saying he just left from here, 4 so... 5 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Okay. That's it, 6 Mr. Chairman. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Were there 8 any other follow-up questions of this witness? 9 MR. PEDERSON: No, thank you, Mr. Chair. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, sir. 11 MR. PEDERSON: I don't mean to interrupt 12 counsel, but I believe I should make the committee 13 aware I was, recently while Mr. Nuell was 14 testifying, handed pictures by Miss Mitchell that 15 I believe -- of her having substantial bruises. 16 Of course, I would need further 17 evidence, and I don't know if the committee would 18 be willing to receive it or not, but I'm making 19 you aware that I just received these from her. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't have a problem 21 accepting that as evidence. For what it's worth, 22 I guess there's a dispute over how it was alleged, 23 whether it was through punching or whether it was 24 through a falling and scuffle. 25 MR. PEDERSON: Sure. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 97 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman? 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Zielinski. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I thank you, 4 Mr. Chairman. 5 Is there anything on there to 6 validate or confirm the date and time that those 7 pictures were taken? For all we know, they could 8 have been taken a year ago, could have been taken 9 a week ago. We could bring her up, and in 10 essence -- to authenticate it. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: She did reference it in 12 her testimony. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So those were taken 14 the night of the incident? 15 MR. PEDERSON: I can't represent that 16 myself. I believe she would have to testify to 17 that extent and authenticate 'em herself because I 18 have no personal knowledge. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman, I 20 would request that if we're going to admit that, 21 that she authenticate it and testify to when the 22 pictures were taken, who took the pictures and so 23 forth. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: When she testified, Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 98 1 she didn't say when the pictures were taken or any 2 of the details, and I think that would be helpful 3 for authentication purposes. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If you would, again -- 5 well, you were already sworn, but why don't you 6 again give us your name. 7 MS. MITCHELL: Christina Mitchell. I 8 took the pictures the next day, the next day after 9 the incident. I didn't take them, but a friend of 10 mine that was at the bar with me, she took the 11 pictures. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: The next day? 13 MS. MITCHELL: The next day. Because 14 that night when I went to the hospital -- I have 15 medical records, and the medical records prove 16 that I was bruising in the legs, that I was 17 bruised. 18 I wasn't just basically picked up 19 outta that place. I was kicked and stomped into 20 that bathroom. I don't care what nobody say. I'm 21 not a liar, and I'm telling the truth about the 22 incident. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: We've heard what 24 you've already said. 25 MS. MITCHELL: Okay. Well, I basically Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 99 1 know that I wouldn't falsify any pictures. That 2 just happened. 3 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman? 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf. 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. SCHRIMPF: 7 Q Ms. Mitchell, one quick question. 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q And I take it the bruises depicted in those 10 pictures did not exist prior to the time that they 11 were taken and prior to the time that you fell 12 into the bathroom; is that correct? 13 A They didn't. I didn't see 'em all that night, but 14 that next morning I did. I was so sore and so 15 hurt. So I said, you know, I seen the ones on my 16 arms, but the one on my leg and my back, I didn't 17 see those. 18 Q But they did not exist prior to the time of the 19 incident? 20 A Yes, they did. I had bruises that existed that 21 night when I went to the hospital. 22 Q That were there before you visited the club? 23 A No. Oh, I didn't have any before I visit -- 24 Q And that's my question. 25 A -- visited the bar. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 100 1 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's all I have, 2 Mr. Chairman. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Is there a motion to 4 accept or maybe not? 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So moved. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The motion by Alderman 7 Zielinski is to accept the photos provided -- 8 MR. WHITCOMB: Objection. Improper 9 foundation without notice for the record. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- to accept the photos 11 as part of our official record in this proceeding. 12 Are there any objections to that motion? 13 Hearing none, so ordered. 14 Mr. Whitcomb, your objection will 15 be duly noted. I just will indicate that the 16 incidents that described -- that describe at least 17 this are within the confine -- are delineated in 18 the notice themselves. So it's just supporting -- 19 supporting evidence. 20 MR. WHITCOMB: We would now call 21 Mr. Eddie Nuell. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 23 MR. NUELL: In regards to -- 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And you -- you have 25 previously been sworn in here. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 101 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 EDDIE NUELL, 3 called as a witness herein, having been first duly 4 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. WHITCOMB: 7 Q Mr. Nuell, directing your attention to the evening 8 of January 3rd, 2009, at about 1:00 in the 9 morning, do you recall an encounter with 10 Miss Mitchell? 11 A Yes, I do. 12 Q Please describe to the committee what you observed 13 and the extent of your participation. 14 A Well, Miss Mitchell entered the bar, she ordered a 15 drink from the bar and stood near the back of the 16 bar, near the back of the tavern. 17 She had a few words with another 18 customer of ours, and it was kind of getting out 19 of hand. So I intervened, and I was trying to 20 figure out what the problem was, what the argument 21 was about. I guess it was a prior incident that 22 happened before even coming in the bar, something 23 that happened a while back before that date. 24 So I told her -- I told her to calm 25 down, Miss Mitchell. I told Miss Mitchell to calm Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 102 1 down, and I was going to talk to the other -- the 2 other customer and see what the problem was. 3 As I was doing that, she was still 4 a little irate over the girl just being in the bar 5 period with her. So at that time, I asked her, I 6 said, "Okay, well, I'm just gonna ask everybody to 7 leave, but at this time, I'm going to ask you and 8 your party to leave first. Then I'll escort the 9 other party out after you have left." 10 When I told her that, she told me 11 she didn't have to -- she felt she didn't have to 12 leave the tavern. So she told me she wasn't 13 leaving. So I asked her again, I said, "You're 14 gonna have to leave, everybody's going to leave." 15 You know, she refused. 16 That's when I tried grab the drink 17 out of her hand. I grabbed the drink out of her 18 hand, set it on the bar, and I started to grab her 19 by her arm -- by her arm, and I started to ask her 20 to leave. That's when she handed it back and 21 said, "I'm not going nowhere. You know, get your 22 hands off me. I'm not leaving." 23 So that's when I tried to grab her 24 arm again to try to take her out the door, and she 25 was still resisting me, and that's when we had Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 103 1 the -- we fell, and that's how we got into the 2 bathroom, fell into the bathroom. And that's when 3 security came and helped her up, helped both of us 4 up because actually we both fell on the ground. 5 We both slipped on the ground. 6 Security came, helped her up, and 7 asked her what the problem was. I said, "She had 8 to go. She was refusing to leave, you know, 9 escort her out." They just politely took her 10 after that and took her out. 11 Q How did you get a bloody lip? 12 A That just happened from her resisting. It wasn't 13 really her swinging on me or, you know, me trying 14 to swing on her or nothin'. It was just the 15 process of her resisting to leave was just the 16 scuffle. 17 Q Pulling away from you? 18 A Just pulling away and stuff. You know, it wasn't 19 intentional, nothing like that. 20 MR. PEDERSON: That's all. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by the 22 committee? 23 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chairman? 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Coggs. 25 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 104 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY ALDERWOMAN COGGS: 3 Q Do you know who took -- who ripped out the 4 surveillance? 5 A I did. 6 Q You did? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And you gave us the account of the incident with 9 Ms. Mitchell, but were you there the night of the 10 shooting? 11 A Yes, I was. I was bartending. 12 Q What is your account of that? 13 A I don't really know too much of anything that was 14 going on outside. 15 Prior to them -- prior to them 16 being put out, I do because I know they was 17 arguing inside the bar with each other, and we had 18 asked them to leave. So they left. 19 From what I recall, what they was 20 telling me was that they was outside arguing with 21 each other and then a fight occurred, and then she 22 wasn't there after that. 23 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions by the 25 committee? Mr. Pederson? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 105 1 MR. PEDERSON: Yes. Thank you. 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. PEDERSON: 4 Q Mr. Nuell, could you tell us why you pulled out 5 the security surveillance system? 6 A It was just a lot of -- just a lot of stuff was 7 going on, and I don't know. I just took it upon 8 myself. It really wasn't a good idea for me to do 9 that, and it was a mistake on my behalf, a choice 10 that I shouldn't have did. I really don't have -- 11 Q What was the mistake? 12 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. I 13 couldn't hear you, sir. 14 BY THE WITNESS: 15 A I really didn't have a reason for it. I removed 16 it. 17 BY MR. PEDERSON: 18 Q Why was it a mistake? 19 A Because I shouldn't have removed it. It was a bad 20 decision on my half [sic] to tamper with the 21 security cameras. 22 Q I'm sorry, Mr. Nuell, but I don't think your 23 question -- your answer is very responsive. You 24 had to have a reason. What were you motivated by? 25 MR. WHITCOMB: Objection. Asked and Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 106 1 answered. I think the answer is obvious. He did 2 not know what had happened outside. The cameras 3 would have picked up what happened outside, and 4 not knowing what happened outside, he tried to 5 keep that information from whomever he wanted to 6 see it. 7 He knew what was happening inside 8 because it was inside. It wasn't, I don't think, 9 an intent to conceal what he knew had happened, 10 but an attempt to conceal what could have happened 11 that he did not know about it. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, let's -- let's 13 hear him say that, Mr. Whitcomb. 14 (Laughter.) 15 MR. WHITCOMB: Well, he's asked the 16 question three times. He's answered it three 17 times. 18 MR. PEDERSON: It's non -- his answers 19 were nonresponsive, though. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'd like to hear him 21 answer it. 22 BY THE WITNESS: 23 A Basically, it was a lot of stuff going on at the 24 time, and I really didn't know exactly all the 25 parts of which was goin' on because it was so much Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 107 1 stuff, you know. So I just -- I just removed the 2 cameras. I just removed the cameras. 3 EXAMINATION 4 BY CHAIRMAN BOHL: 5 Q Well, perhaps you weren't aware of the 6 circumstances? Had you become aware that 7 Mr. Hendrix was involved in the shooting? 8 A No. I wasn't aware of that. 9 Q You had no knowledge that anyone from -- relating 10 to All Star Sports Bar had any -- any involvement 11 in the shooting? 12 A No, I wasn't aware that we -- anybody from our 13 establishment did any of the shooting or none of 14 that. 15 Q So not having -- 16 A I didn't know -- I wasn't aware of it until 17 after -- the day after, after everything inside -- 18 you know, they charged us with whatever they 19 charged us with and stuff. 20 That's when I had knowledge of what 21 actually went on outside the business. 22 Q Did you fear that somehow evidence of the shooting 23 would have showed up on your tape, and you didn't 24 want that perhaps used against you? 25 A Yeah. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 108 1 Q Is that -- I'm just -- I'm not trying to lead you, 2 but I'm -- 3 A That was one of my -- I thought what was on the 4 tape, you know, that it could have been one of our 5 staff members that did it. 6 I just removed it in fear of, you 7 know, them finding out that it was one of our 8 staff members who did the shooting. I wasn't 9 aware that they -- that they was involved in any 10 of the shooting, but... 11 Q You speculated that it was -- that the possibility 12 existed? 13 A Yes, the possibilities. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Zielinski, did 15 you have any follow-up or did that kind of 16 address -- 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No. 18 BY ALDERMAN KOVAC: 19 Q Were you aware of the gun handoff that occurred? 20 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. Who's 21 talking? 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac. 23 THE COURT REPORTER: Oh, I'm sorry. I 24 couldn't -- 25 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 109 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY ALDERMAN KOVAC: 3 Q Were you aware of the gun handoff that occurred? 4 A Yes. That happened at the door when I came -- 5 after the shooting and all that and everything, I 6 went to the security guard, asked what happened, 7 he didn't really tell me much. He said it was a 8 fight outside, and that's when he handed me the 9 firearm. 10 Q And then after that you disconnected the camera? 11 A Yes. I did that after countin' the drawers when I 12 went upstairs, and that's why. 13 Q So he handed you the gun. He didn't tell you 14 exactly what happened? 15 A No. 16 Q What did he tell you? Anything? 17 A He just told me it was a fight outside. That's 18 it. He just told me a fight. I took the handgun. 19 Q Could you tell it had just been fired? 20 A No. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So you're going to ask 22 if the gun was smoking here? 23 BY ALDERMAN KOVAC: 24 Q So the order is he gave you the gun, you put the 25 gun in the stairwell, you went upstairs and Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 110 1 disconnected the security camera? 2 A Yes. I started countin' the drawers down, then 3 went upstairs. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If I may as a follow-up. 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY CHAIRMAN BOHL: 7 Q You didn't care to know any more here? You're 8 handed a gun, you hear gunshots -- 9 A I didn't hear no gunshots from inside the bar. 10 Q Okay. Well, you're handed a gun. Obviously, I 11 think that there's -- it would seem to me that 12 there's some measure of chaos that would lead you 13 to beyond just going upstairs and counting the 14 drawers to yank out the equipment. 15 A That's where it goes back to the possibility it 16 could have been, but then again, it couldn't. So 17 that's why I did the cameras, and I didn't ask 18 further any questions of Hendrix. 19 Q Hand me the gun, hear no evil, see no evil, I 20 don't want to know, but I'm going to yank out the 21 security cameras just in case? I mean, that's 22 kind of what it seems to me that you're alluding 23 to. I just -- is that what it was or was it 24 something different? 25 A No, it wasn't nothin' different -- Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 111 1 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, sir. I 2 can't hear you. 3 BY THE WITNESS: 4 A I didn't further investigate, you know, what went 5 on outside. I just assumed a lot of stuff, and it 6 was just a lot of stuff going on and a lot of 7 confusion. 8 BY CHAIRMAN BOHL: 9 Q You wouldn't want to get to the heart of the 10 matter to know whether or not maybe it's your 11 brother or somebody or another that's pulling a 12 trigger that you're being handed evidence right 13 there? 14 A Like I said, it was a lot of mistakes I made that 15 night. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Other 17 questions? 18 MR. PEDERSON: Thank you. 19 FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. PEDERSON: 21 Q I don't want to belabor this point, but you 22 acknowledge that you then hid that gun in the 23 stairway; is that correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q I'm going to now direct your attention to the Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 112 1 second shooting that occurred, I believe, 2 December 26th. Do you recall that, shots fired 3 and a shooting occurred outside the bar? 4 A No. 5 Q December 26, a gentleman was shot outside your bar 6 after he was ejected? 7 A No, I don't have no acknowledgment of that. 8 Q Okay. Do you recollect a detective talking to you 9 and asking you about this, about someone being 10 shot outside the bar and if you observed it? 11 A It was the night the detective had came to the 12 bar, the door, and asked me if I had heard any 13 gunshots or something. 14 I told him no. I was bartending at 15 the time. I told him I was bartending. I didn't 16 know anything about no gunshots being fired 17 outside or anything like that. 18 MR. WHITCOMB: This is the 19 day-after-Christmas incident? 20 MR. PEDERSON: Yes. 21 MR. WHITCOMB: Texas? The incident 22 involving Texas? 23 BY THE WITNESS: 24 A The detective came at the end of the night when we 25 was closing. Like five minutes before closing, a Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 113 1 detective came to the bar. He asked me if I had 2 heard any gunshots that went on outside. I said, 3 "No. I was bartending." 4 He asked me if we had any 5 surveillance cameras. I said, "No, we don't have 6 any surveillance cameras," because at that time 7 the police department had already took our cameras 8 into their possession. And it was no further 9 questions past that, and he said, "Okay." That 10 was it. 11 BY MR. PEDERSON: 12 Q Before the police arrived, you had been informed 13 by your employees that there had been a shooting, 14 though, right? Is that correct? 15 A No. 16 Q Well, would you be able to explain why there's a 17 discrepancy in the police reports where you told 18 the police officer that night that someone had 19 been involved in a shooting, and you were advised 20 of that? 21 MR. WHITCOMB: Objection as to form of 22 the question as being leading and trying to get 23 into evidence that which is not contained in the 24 complaint and not via police report. 25 If the intent of the department is Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 114 1 to attach evidence from the police reports to the 2 complaint, they should attach it to the complaint. 3 I do not know to what he's referring to, and I 4 would object to the form of that question on that 5 basis. 6 MR. PEDERSON: It's my under -- 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Pederson, could you 8 just point to where in the police report you are 9 referring to here? 10 MR. PEDERSON: Well, I could point in 11 petition, which is Item No. 27. The reports have 12 been admitted as evidence to my understanding. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Correct, right. 14 MR. PEDERSON: So it's my contention 15 that reports indicate that he indicated to the 16 police -- 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And where -- where in 18 the police report -- for the date of the 26th of 19 December? 20 MR. PEDERSON: Yes. These would be 21 contained in Milwaukee Police Report 083610018. 22 MR. WHITCOMB: At which no time were 23 copies given to my office or to the licensees. 24 MR. PEDERSON: Nor am I legally required 25 to. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 115 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We -- 2 MR. WHITCOMB: In all fairness, it's not 3 a requirement from the department's standpoint, 4 when it comes to closing down taverns. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are we trying to -- 6 other than the PA33 summary, was Mr. Whitcomb 7 provided with a copy of the expanded PA33 reports? 8 MR. PEDERSON: No. 9 MR. MacGILLIS: Not to my knowledge, 10 sir. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If it were in the 12 summary, I'm happy to include it because what's in 13 the summary is there, but if the -- Mr. Pederson, 14 if you wish to use reports that were not provided 15 in advance to Mr. Whitcomb, that's going to be 16 problematic. 17 MR. PEDERSON: Well, then I'll just let 18 it lie on the face of what's on the petition. I 19 won't refer to the report. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: That's fine. 21 BY MR. PEDERSON: 22 Q So is it your position then that if it was held 23 that you had knowledge prior to the police showing 24 up, that would be false; is that correct? 25 A Yes. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 116 1 Q Just getting back to the December 14th issue, I 2 just got a couple questions regarding that. 3 Was the licensee, Miss Jennie 4 Nuell, involved at all as this was going on? Was 5 she advised of the situation as it was ongoing? 6 A No. 7 MR. WHITCOMB: I would ask the question 8 to be more specific. This was an event that 9 started at about 1:30 in the morning and went 10 until 8:00 in the morning at the tavern; and so 11 when you ask the witness as to what he thinks his 12 mother knew about police -- point to -- a specific 13 point in time and what she knew at that point in 14 time, what did she know and when she knew it. 15 MR. PEDERSON: Sure. 16 BY MR. PEDERSON: 17 Q When the three gentlemen were first ejected was 18 the licensee present at all? 19 A No. 20 Q Was she in the licensed premises? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Where was she? 23 A Upstairs. 24 Q Was she downstairs at all during the course of 25 that evening? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 117 1 A Not until about the time the detectives showed up. 2 Q When they came back a second time and Mr. Marcus 3 Nuell punched them and they left again, was she 4 present with you at that time? 5 A No. 6 Q Were you present in that situation? 7 A Yes. I was bartending at the time. 8 Q Did she ever get involved in directing security 9 personnel to what you saw? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you ever advise her of this gun situation, 12 that you were hiding a gun? 13 A No. 14 Q Is it the common practice that you run the bar and 15 keep her in the dark about everything? 16 A No. 17 Q Okay. What is the common practice? 18 A It's just when she's not present, I run the bar, 19 and that was just a time that she was not around. 20 She was around, but not present 21 downstairs and in the tavern at the time which I 22 was running it. 23 Q So in Item 21(b) of the petition where it says 24 that Miss Jennie Nuell looks out the front door 25 and appears to direct security employee toward a Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 118 1 fight occurring outside, were you just not there 2 or what? 3 A No. I don't have any knowledge of that act. 4 Q And then in Item (c) when this says that you 5 returned to the tavern after the fight ends, how 6 do you comport that with what you've already 7 testified to, that you had no knowledge of what 8 was going on? 9 A I didn't have no knowledge. They had a -- 10 security had left the front -- the front door was 11 not being occupied. So I was just -- I was inside 12 the bar making sure customers were not running out 13 with like drinks and stuff like that, and then I 14 returned back to bartending behind the bar -- 15 Q Okay. 16 A -- after the incident had occurred. 17 Q Well, then I'll just read it to you because I'm 18 confused how this -- 19 MR. WHITCOMB: It's not his statement, 20 and it's a representation of a video which this 21 committee ruled that it's not going to consider. 22 I think the question is totally out 23 of order. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Although you did 25 stipulate that everything that was provided Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 119 1 including (c) was, in essence, true. 2 BY MR. PEDERSON: 3 Q I'm just going to read a couple portions to you, 4 and if you could explain how this reconciles with 5 your memory and your testimony. 6 It says, "Miss Jennie Nuell looks 7 out the front door and appears to direct the 8 security employee towards a fight occurring 9 outside." 10 MR. WHITCOMB: Excuse me. Where are you 11 reading from? 12 MR. PEDERSON: I'm reading from 21(b). 13 MR. WHITCOMB: Go ahead. 14 BY MR. PEDERSON: 15 Q Again, she directs the security employee towards a 16 fight occurring outside between other security 17 personnel and Joyner and Washington. 18 And then the next Point (c), it 19 says, "The licensee talks to Eddie Nuell who 20 returns to the tavern after the fight ends." 21 You can understand the discrepancy 22 between what has been stipulated to and what you 23 are now testifying to. Can you reconcile that? 24 MR. WHITCOMB: All right. Why don't you 25 have the -- why don't you present the two Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 120 1 inconsistent statements because I'm not following 2 you. What are you asking him to reconcile? 3 MR. PEDERSON: Sure. He indicates that 4 he wasn't outside, that he wasn't aware of what 5 was going on; that -- 6 MR. WHITCOMB: He indicates -- 7 MR. PEDERSON: -- to his knowledge, 8 Miss Jennie Nuell was not aware and wasn't 9 present. That's what's he testified to. 10 MR. WHITCOMB: Let's list those one at a 11 time then, so we're not in a multiple question 12 situation. 13 Number one, he said he was not 14 outside; number two -- what's the other one? 15 MR. PEDERSON: He wasn't involved in the 16 fights or had personal knowledge of what was going 17 on with -- 18 MR. WHITCOMB: Not involved in fights. 19 Next one? 20 MR. PEDERSON: That to his knowledge, 21 Miss Jennie Nuell had no knowledge and was not 22 present to observe what was going on. 23 MR. WHITCOMB: Nuell had no knowledge of 24 what? 25 MR. PEDERSON: Of the fights, of the Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 121 1 shootings, anything. 2 MR. WHITCOMB: At what time? 3 MR. PEDERSON: Any of them. That's my 4 understanding. 5 MR. WHITCOMB: We're talking about 6 representations of the video, Counsel. 7 MR. PEDERSON: No. Right now I'm 8 talking about his statements. This is what he's 9 previously testified to. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: He previously testified 11 to -- 12 MR. WHITCOMB: To what? 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- to what is being 14 questioned here by Mr. Pederson. 15 MR. WHITCOMB: He previously testified 16 that his mother had no knowledge of anything at 17 any time? 18 MR. PEDERSON: To his knowledge, right. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I think the timeline is 20 necessary, and I think that the timeline is what 21 he was aware that -- where he was called out near 22 the steps that he didn't believe his mother -- 23 BY MR. PEDERSON: 24 Q The events in time would be that -- when they came 25 back and Marcus Nuell punched 'em in the face and Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 122 1 then the incident went outside and Marquis Hendrix 2 fired shots in the air; at that time. 3 A Okay. What about that? Are you trying to say was 4 I outside -- 5 Q You testified -- yeah. You testified you never 6 spoke to any of that with your -- 7 A No. 8 Q -- with Miss Jennie Nuell? 9 A No, no. 10 Q Okay. Even after the -- actually, strike that. 11 I've got my -- the second, when 12 they came back, is when Mr. Joyner was shot. The 13 first time was when the shots -- when they were 14 ejected was when the shots were fired in the air 15 after they came back. 16 MR. WHITCOMB: There's no evidence, 17 stipulated or otherwise, other than on the face of 18 the complaint that the shots were fired twice or 19 any shots were fired in the air. 20 MR. PEDERSON: Okay. I think I can -- 21 maybe I can simplify this. 22 BY MR. PEDERSON: 23 Q Was there ever a time you were outside when there 24 was a fight occurring between security personnel 25 and any patrons of the bar that evening, when you Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 123 1 were involved and outside present to observe it? 2 A No, besides the time I was at the front door just 3 guarding the door. 4 Q Was there ever a time when you came back after a 5 fight had occurred, as previously described, and 6 spoke to Miss Jennie Nuell at the front door? 7 A No. I never spoke to her at the front door or 8 either -- none that night -- 9 Q Okay. 10 A -- about the incident. 11 MR. PEDERSON: And it's that testimony 12 that I believe is at odds with the stipulated 13 facts contained in 21(b) and (c), and I'd like him 14 to speak to that discrepancy. 15 MR. WHITCOMB: They are not stipulated 16 facts. The record will reflect what they 17 represented based upon what was -- what was 18 stated. 19 MR. PEDERSON: If we're going to make 20 an -- 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I think we're mincing 22 words on that, Mr. Whitcomb. 23 MR. WHITCOMB: Yeah, but number one, 24 he's using the term "facts." These are 25 representations made by the police department made Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 124 1 based upon observations of a video that this 2 committee is not considering. I'll go over those 3 representations again, but to hang another person 4 with my representations based upon my discussions 5 with his mother I think is totally inappropriate. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Nevertheless, if you can 7 just answer the questions here. Rather than just 8 say -- asking him specifically to try to rectify 9 the two, you could put it in the form of a 10 question, Mr. Pederson. 11 MR. WHITCOMB: I think he's trying to 12 impeach Mr. Nuell based upon inconsistent 13 representations or statements, to what end? It's 14 not in search of the truth. It's in search of 15 impugning his credibility. 16 I think the committee is personally 17 well-suited to make that determination on its own. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Let him just please 19 finish his questioning, but I want it in the form 20 of a question if you could just try to tie it up. 21 MR. PEDERSON: I thank the Chair for 22 that opportunity, but I think the point has been 23 sufficiently made, and I'll move on -- 24 MR. WHITCOMB: I agree with you. 25 MR. PEDERSON: -- under the rulings that Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 125 1 have been made, and I have no further questions. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Does that elicit any 3 additional questions from committee here? All 4 right. Mr. Whitcomb, do you have any other 5 witnesses? 6 We'll swear you in if you could 7 raise your right hand, please. 8 (Witness sworn.) 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Name and address for the 10 record if you could get closer to the microphone 11 because I think our court reporter is going to 12 have difficult hearing from you. 13 THE WITNESS: Tonja Richardson, 215 West 14 Henry Street. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And a spelling -- I know 16 how to spell Richardson. If you could just give 17 me the correct spelling of Tonja. 18 THE WITNESS: T-o-n-j-a. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Please 20 proceed. 21 MR. WHITCOMB: Good afternoon, 22 Miss Richardson. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And Mr. Whitcomb, I 24 don't mind if you're facing her, if you could at 25 least pull the microphone out with you so that at Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 126 1 least we get you on our recording, please. 2 TONJA RICHARDSON, 3 called as a witness herein, having been first duly 4 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. WHITCOMB: 7 Q On January 3rd, 2009, you were a bartender at the 8 All Star Sports Bar, correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And you were present during the incident with 11 Miss Mitchell? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Would you please describe for the committee what 14 you saw? 15 A Miss Mitchell -- when Miss Mitchell entered the 16 bar, she was -- I don't know, I can't say if she 17 was drinking at first, but she was kind of a 18 little upset about something. She had like a 19 little nasty attitude. She was like nasty a 20 little bit. 21 Throughout the course of the 22 evening, I did see her with a couple of drinks. 23 As far as the incident goes, I was standing 24 towards the end of the bar where Mr. Nuell was 25 also working. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 127 1 There was a couple of patrons that 2 came up and was complaining about her bumping into 3 them, and they were getting a little agitated with 4 her attitude and stuff. And one of the young 5 ladies actually pulled Mr. Nuell to the side, and 6 he was talking to her. 7 And Miss Mitchell actually came up 8 to Mr. Nuell while he was talking to the other 9 lady, so he was in the middle between the two of 10 the ladies, and Miss Mitchell reached over and 11 tried to hit the other lady so that's when 12 Mr. Nuell really got upset and -- 13 Q Eddie Nuell? 14 A Eddie Nuell, and asked her to leave. 15 She put up a fight, snatching away 16 from him, just real -- just real nasty. Mr. Nuell 17 grabbed her by her arm and tried to escort her 18 out. That's when she really got forceful, trying 19 to push him away, and he tried to grab her again; 20 and that's when they actually fell and went into 21 the bathroom because at the end of the bar the 22 men's bathroom door is right next to the bar. So 23 that's how they ended up in the bar. 24 Security came to the back -- 25 actually was a lot of people -- it was a big Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 128 1 commotion because a lot of people was around 2 trying to see what was going on, actually trying 3 to break up the fight and get people where they 4 needed to be. 5 When they actually came out of the 6 bathroom, Mr. Nuell had a bloody lip, his shirt 7 was ripped. Miss Mitchell was still cussin' and 8 fightin', and she didn't really want to leave out. 9 She snatched her arm away from security, and she 10 basically left with an attitude like she came in 11 with. 12 Q Did you see anyone punch Miss Mitchell? 13 A No. 14 Q Did you see anyone kick Miss Mitchell? 15 A No. 16 MR. WHITCOMB: No other questions. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: First, questions by the 18 committee? Mr. Pederson? 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. PEDERSON: 21 Q Just real briefly, I'm sorry if you mentioned it 22 and I didn't hear it, but are you familiar with 23 the licensees at all? 24 MR. WHITCOMB: She works there. 25 MR. PEDERSON: Oh, she works there. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 129 1 Okay. Thank you. That's all I had. I just 2 wanted to know what the connection was. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Thank you. 4 MR. WHITCOMB: That concludes the 5 evidentiary portion of the licensees. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Pederson, we'll 7 start with you then if you want to present a 8 closing. Then we'll hear from Mr. Whitcomb. 9 MR. PEDERSON: Sure, one additional 10 matter. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Can we just -- I'm 12 sorry. I apologize. 13 Are there any questions by 14 committee at this time? I mean, because -- all 15 right. I'm sorry. Please proceed here. 16 MR. PEDERSON: Thank you. But before I 17 go to closing arguments, just one quick matter 18 that I think the committee should be aware of. 19 It's my understanding that 20 subsequent to our last hearing, Mr. Hendrix was 21 convicted in misdemeanor court of concealing a 22 weapon and of disorderly conduct while armed due 23 to the events arising December 14th of last year. 24 MR. WHITCOMB: There was no one charged 25 or arrested for shooting Mr. Joyner. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 130 1 MR. PEDERSON: That's correct. 2 MR. WHITCOMB: So we don't know who the 3 shooter is. 4 MR. PEDERSON: I'm going to go to 5 closing arguments. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Go ahead. 7 MR. PEDERSON: I think it makes sense to 8 begin with the burden here, and that's, I believe, 9 highlighted sufficiently in the last paragraph of 10 the petition, and I'll just remind the committee 11 that she is charged here with keeping or 12 maintaining a disorderly or riotous, indecent or 13 improper house contrary to Wisconsin Statutes 14 Chapter 125. That's the burden for revocation. 15 What exactly does that mean? Well, there's some 16 guidance in our own ordinances and the statute 17 itself. 18 One, that it was operated in a 19 manner that it constituted a public nuisance; that 20 the conduct on the licensed premises had a 21 substantial adverse effect upon the health and 22 safety of the immediate neighborhood; and finally, 23 that the continued operation of the licensed 24 premises is not in the best interests or the good 25 order of the city. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 131 1 I believe that's adequately 2 demonstrated throughout the petition. Of course, 3 the most concerning incident is the first incident 4 occurring on December 14th. I understand and 5 appreciate the direction made by Chair that if all 6 we're talking about is obstructing, that that's 7 not sufficient. 8 What I'm really focusing on at the 9 last hearing and want to at this time is the facts 10 that underlie the obstructing. I don't think the 11 obstructing conviction in and of itself means 12 revocation, far from it. That would never be 13 adequate. 14 The question is is what supports 15 that, what facts are the background to that; and I 16 submit for your consideration, that just the 17 admissions related to that, the factual premise, 18 are sufficient to support a revocation in my 19 humble opinion. 20 And the reason for that is that 21 they do go directly to the safety and welfare of 22 the immediate community surrounding the licensed 23 premises; and in reviewing those facts, the facts 24 that are admitted to by counsel and by the 25 licensee are that the police showed up Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 132 1 investigating a shooting, not a shots fired, a 2 shooting of a person. They had a general 3 description. 4 They spoke to Miss Nuell, that she 5 was aware of -- or had a good idea and was aware 6 of who they were looking for and that he was an 7 employee of the bar, and she purposefully 8 concealed that fact and was not forthcoming in 9 indicating that there was an additional person who 10 worked at the bar that matched the description 11 that may very well be the person that they were 12 looking for. 13 If we assume no other facts -- and 14 these are all admitted facts up to this point. If 15 we assume no other facts, I submit that that is 16 sufficient for revocation. We, as a city, have an 17 obligation to set a bar, a standard of conduct, an 18 expectation of what our licensees, particularly 19 the licensees of taverns, will be expected to do 20 in these sort of public safety situations. 21 It's -- it's one thing to say that 22 she should have gone to the ends of the earth to 23 assist the police, nobody's saying that, but if 24 the police show up investigating a shooting that 25 you -- that the licensee believes may involve one Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 133 1 of her employees on the -- or near the licensed 2 premises, I submit that they should be forthcoming 3 about that fact; and that fact alone I believe 4 supports the revocation. 5 However, due to the evidence 6 accumulated here, we have every reason to believe 7 that she knew more about this hiding of the 8 security surveillance equipment. As the 9 stipulated facts or the facts alleged in Item 10 No. 21, she was involved, she was watching. She 11 reacted every single time there was a shots fired. 12 She interacted with Mr. Nuell, and 13 then immediately after an interaction, the gun is 14 passed and hidden. I think there can be little 15 doubt that she maintained -- that she kept a 16 disorderly house, an improper house, based on 17 those facts alone. 18 But we have more. We have a 19 continuing pattern of violence occurring as 20 alleged in the petition at the establishment. We 21 have another shooting that apparently involves 22 patrons after they go outside. Concerning, it was 23 never reported. 24 Again, the victims of the shootings 25 had to go to the hospital and call the police Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 134 1 before the police were ever notified. I would 2 think that the licensee bears some burden in 3 reporting these incidents. 4 Then we have a fight which, if you 5 are to believe Miss Mitchell in her presentation, 6 who on her -- I think she deserves some 7 consideration and credibility on her presence. It 8 was important enough for her to come down here and 9 tell you what happened from her point of view. 10 The allegations are that she was a victim of 11 violence directed to her by the staff, again, a 12 disorderly, riotous house. 13 Finally, we have another incident 14 where a person ducks into the bar, and he's 15 immediately -- a patron, and he's immediately 16 found with some suspected drugs and another 17 firearm that's hidden in the bathroom. 18 What we have here is a pattern of 19 behavior that is directly detrimental to the 20 health and safety of the immediate community, and 21 for that reason, we urge the revocation. 22 Thank you. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mr. Pederson. 24 Mr. Whitcomb? 25 MR. WHITCOMB: Brief or in detail? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 135 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Whatever best represents 2 your client and their interests here. 3 MR. WHITCOMB: Safety and welfare of the 4 neighborhood. I'd ask the committee to focus on 5 what either licensee did wrong that affected the 6 safety and welfare of the neighborhood. 7 We note two groups that could have 8 avoided or caused the avoidance of what transpired 9 on December 14th. First, we have the police 10 department who was asked to remain in front of the 11 tavern because of the problems of Mr. Boyle, 12 Mr. Washington and Mr. Joyner. That request 13 was -- I wouldn't say denied, but they had left. 14 Having left there, the second blame 15 is to the three individuals, goofballs, punks, 16 Mr. Joyner, Mr. Washington and Mr. Boyle, who, 17 once again, tried to return to the tavern after 18 being told twice beforehand that they were no 19 longer welcome after having been escorted 20 politely, by their own description, from the 21 tavern when they were asked to leave. 22 Had either of those two events not 23 occurred, we would not be here today. I do not 24 believe there was any conduct on behalf of either 25 licensee in that regard which affected the safety Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 136 1 and welfare of the community. 2 Safety and welfare of the 3 community, not cooperating with the police, well, 4 I think the safety and welfare of the community 5 would be enhanced if the police in the 6 neighborhood of 40th and Fond du Lac -- 4000 and 7 Fond du Lac had any trust in the department. 8 Is that the burden of licensees? 9 Is that the burden of the neighborhood? No, I do 10 not believe it is. I believe it's the burden of 11 the department. 12 Had there been established trust 13 between the licensee, the neighborhood and the 14 department, I do not believe there would have been 15 this immediate knee-jerk reaction, don't say 16 anything, don't admit to anything, hide anything 17 that could possibly incriminate anyone, especially 18 family members. 19 Health and welfare of the safety of 20 the community, the two of them, in effect, and for 21 which they were charged and for which it is 22 reported in the reports, they failed to properly 23 identify Mr. Hendrix, the alleged -- the security 24 guard with a gun as having worked there that 25 evening. For that, they paid the price, a Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 137 1 misdemeanor conviction, a fine. They acknowledged 2 the wrongdoing for obstruction of justice. 3 As regard to the shooting, the 4 department, the District Attorney's office, 5 Mr. Pederson, by his smirks, thinks he knows who 6 did the shooting, but no charges were ever issued. 7 No one associated with the establishment was 8 charged with shooting Mr. Joyner. 9 The reports say he was shot twice. 10 He says to the police in the hospital he was shot 11 once. He says to the police in the hospital that 12 he was super intoxicated and didn't recall much of 13 what transpired. Neither Mr. Joyner nor 14 Mr. Washington could identify who shot Mr. Joyner. 15 So safety and welfare, wrongdoing, 16 security guards, concealing a weapon, I think 17 that's probably a regular occurrence at a 18 substantial majority of the taverns in the City of 19 Milwaukee by security guards. 20 It's lawful, although according to 21 our -- according to our state constitution, it's 22 lawful. There have been very few, if any, 23 prosecutions when that was found. Does that 24 affect the safety and welfare? No. 25 The problem was Mr. Hendrix came Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 138 1 inside, he gave his .38 to Mr. Nuell, Mr. Nuell 2 put it in the stairway. He knew the police were 3 going to arrive, didn't want to have to deal with 4 the issue of the gun. Was that right? No. Did 5 it affect the health and safety and welfare of the 6 community? No. 7 I think having a firearm in a 8 tavern in certain neighborhoods known by the 9 patrons who established it, that is of benefit to 10 the health, safety and welfare of the community. 11 There may be some disagreement 12 here, but the incident with Miss Mitchell, her 13 attitude displayed here today I think lends 14 credibility to the testimony of the bartender and 15 the two Nuells that she was creating a disturbance 16 inside the tavern. 17 They tried to calm her down. She 18 refused. They tried to get her to leave. She 19 refused. There's contact between the security and 20 her physically to move her towards the door. She 21 resisted, she backed up. 22 Mr. Nuell and Miss Mitchell fell 23 into the men's bathroom and on the floor. 24 Thereafter she was calmly walked out. I don't see 25 how that is -- in any way reflects poorly upon the Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 139 1 establishment. 2 The outside shooting, you heard the 3 testimony, didn't hear it, didn't report it. It's 4 not -- it's not 6th and Wisconsin. It's a 5 neighborhood. It's in a tough neighborhood. It's 6 probably in the center of the toughest 7 neighborhood in the City of Milwaukee, 4000 8 Fond du Lac. Shooting outside? Yeah, it happens, 9 it occurred. Did they hear it? No. Did they 10 report it? No. They did not hear it. 11 The incident where a gentleman runs 12 into the bar, sits down at the bar, does not have 13 enough time to get a drink, police follow him 14 shortly thereafter, he runs to the bathroom, 15 apparently drops a firearm and some illegal drugs, 16 how is that the fault in any regard of the 17 licensee? Maybe it's -- what was the licensee's 18 wrongdoing? Having the bar open? 19 I respectfully submit that these 20 are matters of substantial concern that are of 21 concern to this committee that are best considered 22 at times of renewal. I do not believe any of 23 these incidents raise -- rise to the level where 24 the Milwaukee Police Department is compelled to, 25 in effect, shut down businesses that it dislikes, Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 140 1 that perhaps are not the most cooperative with 2 them as they possibly could be. 3 Miss Nuell reached out to the new 4 captain before this hearing today, and he was 5 polite, but he said he would await the outcome of 6 this meeting to provide her with a laundry list, 7 if you will, a checklist, how could we be of 8 assistance; how we, tavern owners, in a tough 9 neighborhood, how do we best cooperate with the 10 police department without, by so doing, putting 11 our licenses at risk because really, we don't have 12 much trust between us. 13 The Nuells, forthcoming, they're 14 good operators. Mr. Hendrix no longer works for 15 them. It was an incident that, in short order, 16 got out control; could have been controlled had 17 the police officer remained on the scene; would 18 not have occurred had Boyle, Joyner and Washington 19 left even after the third time they were told to. 20 I respectfully submit to this 21 committee that the evidence is insufficient to 22 sustain a motion to revoke these licenses, and in 23 that regard, would conclude my arguments. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Anything 25 further from the committee? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 141 1 For the committee's benefit, the 2 options on a revocation is a motion could be made 3 to indicate that the charges are insufficient and 4 that, as such, that it would be a motion, I 5 believe, to place on file the charges that would 6 be essentially denying that charges are sufficient 7 to take any negative action to the license; a 8 motion could be made to suspend the license 9 similar to a renewal hearing 10 to 90 days based 10 on evidence; and/or a motion could be made to -- 11 if there's belief that there's sufficient evidence 12 in the complaint to revoke the license. 13 So the options are essentially to 14 dismiss the charges, 10 to 90 days on the 15 suspension or to, if you feel that there's 16 sufficient evidence, to proceed forward with the 17 revocation. 18 Mr. Schrimpf, am I correct on that? 19 MR. SCHRIMPF: You are, Mr. Chairman, 20 with the notation, Mr. Chairman, that in a 21 revocation situation, findings of fact have to be 22 prepared no matter what the committee action is. 23 There's appeal rights. 24 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Mr. Chairman? 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Hamilton. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 142 1 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: If I could ask when 2 this would come up for renewal? 3 MR. WHITCOMB: Last year's renewal 4 hearing was in September, so about that time. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: It's in September, 6 albeit this license was still surrendered under 7 temporary agreement, if you will, that it is 8 currently still not yet operating. 9 MR. WHITCOMB: Correct. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And that would be 11 pending the outcome of, I guess, not only the 12 committee's decision, but the corresponding 13 council's decision based on the committee 14 recommendation. Go ahead, please. 15 MS. GRILL: The license has an 16 expiration date of October 22nd. 17 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: October 22nd. 18 MR. SCHRIMPF: So that we're clear, 19 Mr. Chairman, that's 2009. 20 MS. GRILL: That's correct, but 21 currently it's surrendered. 22 MR. SCHRIMPF: Correct, I understand. 23 They have not been operating. 24 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: And they haven't 25 been operating since when? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 143 1 MR. WHITCOMB: March 6th. 84 days 2 without a license including today pursuant to 3 agreement. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: If Alderman 5 Hamilton will make a motion, I'll defer to his 6 action. 7 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: I'll make the 8 motion. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Alderman 10 Hamilton. 11 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: I think this is kind 12 of touchy for us because we -- I personally feel 13 that some of the activities that's been presented 14 were particularly egregious. 15 Do they rise to the level of a 16 revocation? I would have to disagree that they 17 do, but they do present some very serious 18 concerns. And you know, I know that some 19 sentiments of mistrust may be there when dealing 20 with the police department. 21 Counsel is right. When you are a 22 licensee of a liquor establishment, you are part 23 of the system. You are partnered with the police 24 department. You are a partner with the city in 25 providing a service to the community. You become Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 144 1 a partner. So you have to have some level of 2 trust with your partner. 3 And when you have incidents like 4 the one that occurred at your establishment on -- 5 in December, in order to get to the bottom of 6 those types of incidents, you have to cooperate 7 with them; and I think there's a problem with 8 notification in notifying them and sharing 9 information and making sure that all the 10 information are out there. 11 You know, it seems to me, which is 12 why I was a little frustrated with the debate 13 about the videotape, because it seems all parties 14 are, you know, agreeing to the fact that you were 15 not the aggressors in this situation, you didn't 16 go out and, you know, with these three guys, you 17 weren't, you know, shooting wildly into the 18 community and endangering everybody in the 19 neighborhood. There was a -- you know, somebody 20 presented themselves at the establishment, put the 21 patrons at the establishment and the people who 22 work there and obviously themselves at great risk, 23 you know, and you responded. 24 It would have been nice in the case 25 of Miss Mitchell that, again, to notify the police Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 145 1 department if there was an inability remove her 2 from the premises because of whatever it was that 3 was going on. It wasn't -- it didn't seem like 4 she was -- it wasn't a major fight that was in the 5 establishment where, you know, you had to, you 6 know, grab her to the point where she had to have 7 bruises in order to remove her from the premises. 8 I mean, you know, you can notify 9 the police department for those types of 10 incidents, too, if you're unable to remove her. 11 You know, so there's a certain level of 12 responsibility, you know, that goes there when 13 you're encountering these types of situations. 14 You know, the simple fact that 15 there was a shooting that occurred and the way it 16 occurred and the events unfolded the way that they 17 unfolded rises to the level of some action by this 18 committee. 19 You know, the fight that occurred, 20 and how that was handled, I think rises to a level 21 of, you know, recognizing that something needs to 22 change at the establishment. 23 You know, I think you really need 24 to pay some attention to how things operate there 25 and who's responsible for what and who's going to Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 146 1 be accountable for things when they go wrong and 2 to recognize that this committee has traditionally 3 pointed out over and over again that contacting 4 the police department when you have issues at your 5 establishment will not be held against you. 6 Contacting them and reaching out to 7 them and communicating with them, even if you have 8 something bad that happened at your establishment, 9 the fact that you reached out to the police 10 department and that you cooperated is actually a 11 benefit. It helps you even when something 12 terrible happens. 13 The fact that you cooperated, that 14 you communicated, that you notified them, that 15 helps you, you know, especially when we have to do 16 our evaluation. 17 I recognize that sometimes there's 18 a bigger picture that you have to protect yourself 19 from and that you need to be aware of, but 20 recognize the position that we're in, as well, and 21 so that cooperation and notification and 22 cooperation, that's critical if you're going to 23 hold a license. That's just absolutely necessary. 24 So with that said, for -- 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman, I'm sorry to Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 147 1 interrupt you. I just want to say that we have 2 two revocations before us. I just want to make 3 certain that you outline which of the two. We'll 4 take up the first, which is Item No. 4, and that 5 is the motion of revocation relating to the 6 Class "B" Tavern license for Jennie Nuell as agent 7 for Maximum Capacity, LLC. So the bar itself will 8 come first. We'll take a motion on that and then 9 separately take a motion on Class "B" manager's 10 license for Eddie Nuell. 11 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: So for Item 4 then, 12 for the revocation of the Class "B" Tavern 13 license, I would recommend a 60-day suspension and 14 because of -- you know, there are major changes 15 that need to occur in the operation of the 16 facility. 17 And you, Miss Nuell, you have to 18 take on the responsibility, and it seems like you 19 kind of let that get away from you, you know, and 20 everyone else is running everything and despite 21 the fact of you being on the premises, you seem to 22 not have any control or knowledge of, you know, 23 what's happening, and to not be in that decision 24 making chain is a problem. 25 You have to -- especially if you're Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 148 1 on-site, you have to be a part of that 2 decision-making process. And you know, so I think 3 that suspension would hopefully, you know, put 4 some weight behind the fact that something needs 5 to change in the setup of that operation; that the 6 police department, they operate as a partner with 7 you in the community; that, you know, information 8 shared with them won't always reflect negatively 9 on your license coming before this committee 10 simply because you contacted them and cooperated, 11 and you know, bad things happen out there 12 sometimes, but your cooperation with them is 13 critical. 14 So that would be the motion for 15 that one. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Why don't we take each 17 one up separately here. 18 The motion by Alderman Hamilton 19 relating to the revocation charges of the 20 Class "B" Tavern for Jennie Nuell, File 21 No. 081329, the motion is made for a suspension in 22 the term of 60 days. Is there a discussion on 23 that motion? 24 Why don't we take a roll call vote 25 on the motion. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 149 1 MS. BLACK: Alderman Hamilton? 2 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Aye. 3 MS. BLACK: Alderman Kovac? 4 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Aye. 5 MS. BLACK: Alderman Coggs? 6 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Aye. 7 MS. BLACK: Alderman Zielinski? 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Aye. 9 MS. MARTIN: Mr. Chair. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No. The motion will 11 prevail on a four to one vote. 12 Mr. Schrimpf -- and I would just 13 say for the record here, I'm particularly troubled 14 by the issue of the obstruction. It's 15 particularly troubling to me that an individual 16 that was in your employment resorted to a level of 17 shooting. 18 I understand we don't necessarily 19 know the entirety of the circumstances, and I do 20 believe, as well, that if the circumstances had 21 perhaps been more ideal and if the police 22 department had been able to be present at the 23 first incident or on that one incident, that 24 perhaps the individuals may not have returned, and 25 we would have had a different outcome. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 150 1 That being said, I am concerned 2 with the nature of obstruction. I'm concerned 3 that on multiple instances here and sort of in the 4 entirety of the police report, that there are a 5 lot of situations in which an individual running a 6 bar -- I take that this is a tough neighborhood, 7 but multiple shootings are concerning to me. 8 I don't hold necessarily -- and 9 I'll just sort of kind of call the situation with 10 the -- a wash in that the truth is probably 11 somewhere in between. I'm going to guess that 12 perhaps things may have been a little more in 13 terms of physical than was described by Mr. Eddie 14 Nuell; perhaps Miss Walker [sic] had a little more 15 beer and being boisterous, as well, as opposed to 16 having perhaps been able to -- if she had gone 17 out, clearly that that situation had been there. 18 I don't necessarily hold that 19 against you, and I don't hold against you the last 20 incident that's listed here in which an individual 21 ran into your establishment perhaps with no 22 evidence that he was utilizing the bar for any 23 services other than the fact that somebody walks 24 in who may have seen the police in the vicinity, 25 is concerned. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 151 1 But multiple -- multiple instances 2 of shootings, I would hold short of a full-fledged 3 revocation. I would have been stern -- I guess at 4 this point, it's sort of really mincing words if 5 we support a 90-day suspension versus a revocation 6 versus a 60-day suspension, the initial 30 days, 7 but I would have supported going up to the maximum 8 short of that just for the record. I don't have 9 to state that for the record, but I am stating 10 that for the record. 11 That being said, Mr. Schrimpf, on 12 the 60-day suspension -- 13 MR. SCHRIMPF: The committee will do 14 findings of fact and conclusions of law 15 recommending a 60-day suspension of this license. 16 You'll get a copy of that. I assume, 17 Mr. Whitcomb, you'll accept service? 18 MR. WHITCOMB: Yes, Mr. Chairman -- uh, 19 Counsel. 20 MR. SCHRIMPF: And you may submit 21 written objections to that recommendation by 22 June 11th, close of business. 23 MR. PEDERSON: We waive the right to 24 submit written objections. 25 MR. SCHRIMPF: Oh, okay. But if you Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 152 1 submit written objections, then you also have the 2 ability to appear before the Milwaukee Common 3 Council when it considers this matter on 4 June 16th, 2009, in the council chambers of this 5 building at approximately 9:00 a.m., and I guess 6 that's it. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf, I believe 8 it's -- I want to clarify one point for you in 9 particular because of the revocation. 10 The council still has the ability 11 to amend the recommendation of the committee. So 12 there may not be a 100 percent guarantee of that. 13 So you may wish to -- at the very least, you could 14 probably stipulate something in writing. 15 I just want to make certain that he 16 would have the ability to show up if there was 17 such a motion to at least perhaps make a 18 presentation. 19 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, but the ordinances 20 rather clearly state that they have to submit 21 written objections in order to appear before the 22 council. 23 MR. WHITCOMB: In the event that the 24 common council does anything other than to support 25 the committee -- Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 153 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You can make that 2 determination on your own -- 3 MR. WHITCOMB: Sure. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- for that purpose, but 5 I just wanted to make certain, and I know you know 6 the proceedings well enough, to state that there 7 is a possibility that there would be a motion on 8 the floor and should that be the case, that I 9 assume that you maybe want to speak perhaps for 10 your five minutes for that time. 11 So that being said, you can hold 12 your cards and determine how you want to play 13 them. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I think what you're 15 trying to say is it might be advisable for counsel 16 to attend the council meeting in the event some 17 unexpected motion arises from the council to 18 increase the suspension time period. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Or actually revoke. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Or revoke it. 21 MR. WHITCOMB: That's a good point. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: It is not 23 anticipated, it would be highly unlikely, but 24 given what's at stake here, it might be advisable 25 just to attend so that if something like that were Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 154 1 to occur, you were there to respond and speak to 2 your position. 3 MR. WHITCOMB: What's the date of that 4 council meeting anticipated? 5 MR. SCHRIMPF: June 16th. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The council meeting is 7 June 16th, and it would be at the normal 9:00 time 8 and one of the first items taken up. 9 MR. WHITCOMB: On this particular 10 license, would the licensee be able to pick up her 11 license today so she can open up today? 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't know that the 13 deal is stipulated. 14 MR. WHITCOMB: Well, we've already 15 served the suspension, and we agreed to surrender 16 the license, quote, "until a hearing can be had on 17 the complaint seeking revocation of said 18 licenses." We've had that hearing. It's a 60-day 19 suspension. We've been out of business for 84. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm not -- I'm not party 21 to that. I wasn't party to the deal. 22 I think that you can work out with 23 the licensing division and the City Attorney's 24 office. 25 MR. SCHRIMPF: But I believe this -- Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 155 1 first of all, I am aware of it, and I believe the 2 committee, Mr. Chairman, accepted that stipulation 3 by the parties, and I believe if the license is 4 going to be released so that she can operate, once 5 again, this committee has to take affirmative 6 action to do so. Am I not correct on that, 7 Miss Grill? 8 MS. GRILL: Correct, once someone 9 surrenders their license, in order to get it back, 10 the committee has to -- 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Let me just make 12 certain, and I believe I am, you are literally at 13 this point saying we've now had the formal 14 hearing. We want to operate between now and the 15 time of June 16th. If there's ratification of 60 16 days, at that point another 60 days will commence 17 from that point forward. Is that -- 18 MR. WHITCOMB: No, that wasn't our 19 agreement. Just looking at -- we voluntarily said 20 we would not be open pending the final hearings 21 before this committee back in March. 22 Remember, in March I said you can't 23 bring these people forward. They have pending 24 criminal charges and would violate the Fifth 25 Amendment right. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 156 1 In exchange with the department we 2 entered a stipulation, okay, we will agree to an 3 adjournment from March 6th provided you don't stay 4 open; and then between the three lawyers, 5 Mr. Schrimpf for the committee, Mr. Pederson for 6 the department and I, we entered into a 7 stipulation the term "surrender" in small caps may 8 be applicable, but not in the true sense of the 9 term. 10 We just said we would not be open 11 until the hearings are completed, and that's what 12 we've agreed to, and then we further agreed that 13 if the suspension is imposed for less time than we 14 haven't been open, we have no recourse. We're out 15 of luck. 16 I mean, and we haven't been open 17 for 84 days. We had the 60 days, but the written 18 agreement says after the -- we'll only not be open 19 for the time until the hearing is conducted. 20 And the department was concerned 21 about having the paper license? Well, all right, 22 we'll give the paper license back to the license 23 division; and the agreement was approved by the -- 24 by this committee on March 6th, and as to the 25 mechanics of getting the license back, I would Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 157 1 defer to Mr. Schrimpf on that behalf. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't think I'm 3 disputing what you're saying. What I'm saying is 4 you surrendered your license, and it was because 5 it was a deferment of the initial revocation 6 hearing at your request. 7 MR. WHITCOMB: Right, the adjournment, 8 correct. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: With the adjournment, if 10 there hadn't been the adjournment and there had 11 been a similar decision of 60 days, you still 12 wouldn't have been to able to operate until such 13 time that the common council met on any 14 recommendation. 15 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's correct. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: What you're saying is, 17 in essence, you waited at the request of the deal, 18 the hearing has been held, that you should begin 19 and be able to operate at this point here now 20 because the hearing has been conducted. 21 And all I was saying is if my 22 reading is correct, that you would be able to 23 start operating today; however, notwithstanding 24 any suspension, if there was a suspension that 25 actually is ratified by the common council on Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 158 1 June 16th, you would be able to operate from today 2 up until that point; and at that point, any 3 suspension then would commence from -- 60 days 4 from midnight of that date. 5 MR. WHITCOMB: Not according to our 6 agreement. 7 Our agreement says in the event the 8 licenses committee recommends a suspension of said 9 licenses as a result of the hearing on the 10 complaints of the complainants, the parties will 11 recommend to the license committee that the time 12 during which licenses were surrendered will be 13 credited toward any suspension that may be imposed 14 by the licenses committee and the common council. 15 Well, all right. There's your -- 16 that's what you were getting to, that the 17 committee has to make a motion. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Yeah. 19 MR. WHITCOMB: In the event any 20 suspension imposed is less than the period of time 21 that the licenses were surrendered, the licensees 22 know and understand that no, quote, recourse shall 23 be had in that eventuality. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Do we have a copy of 25 that? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 159 1 MR. SCHRIMPF: It was submitted to the 2 committee. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: It's not in -- 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman? 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: It's not in the notes? 6 I mean, do we have a copy of that here in a file? 7 MS. GRILL: This would be prior to the 8 revocation. 9 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. I can't 10 hear you. 11 MS. GRILL: I believe you should receive 12 status [inaudible]. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No. I'm talking about 14 part of this revocation hearing was a three-way 15 deal that was signed. 16 MR. SCHRIMPF: Yes. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm asking if other than 18 Mr. Whitcomb's copy somebody on the city's side 19 has a hard copy of that. 20 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mine was given to the 21 committee. I don't know where it is. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I think I can shed 23 some light on this. I think that the operative 24 phrase in that reading by counsel is "recommend to 25 the committee." There's no binding effect of that Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 160 1 agreement upon the committee. 2 MR. WHITCOMB: Now, I agree. Having 3 read it today and after five hours of hearing, 4 it's here. 5 MR. SCHRIMPF: Right. Which is why, 6 Mr. Chairman, when that was being worked out, I 7 worked that language in with everybody present. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And so theoretically, 9 we're not bound by that, and the committee can 10 decide if it so desires I guess at this point 11 whether or not they want to release a license 12 pending -- knowing that we have at least this 13 hearing. Pending the outcome, it may not decide 14 not to. 15 At that point, Mr. Whitcomb would 16 be given the discretion to be able to go into a 17 court of law and to essentially get an injunction 18 that may allow him to operate, I suppose. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman? 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Zielinski. 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I would like to 22 make a motion. I think that 60 days was about as 23 low as we could go. They have the benefit of the 24 doubt on the 60 days. 25 And so I would move that they could Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 161 1 get their license today and start operating today, 2 but that 60-day time period ticker will not start 3 ticking until the council meeting. 4 So that would be my motion. So 5 they're not -- in other words, they wouldn't get 6 credit for the previous 84 days that they've 7 surrendered their license, but they would be able 8 to start, you know, operating tonight; and once 9 the license is suspended, the 60-day time ticker 10 would start from that point in time. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I mean, it's a valid 12 motion. My only issue is as much, I think we were 13 operating under a gentlemen's agreement from the 14 get-go. 15 I don't know that this committee 16 has the jurisdiction in one way, shape or form to 17 have other than the fact that, among other things, 18 you can stipulate in writing what you're going to 19 do as part of the gentlemen's agreement. They 20 surrendered their license temporarily. 21 But that being said, I -- 22 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Explain that again, 23 Mr. Chairman. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't know that this 25 committee has the authority to accept until such Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 162 1 time that the council ratifies even the temporary 2 surrender of a license. 3 I don't know that this committee of 4 five has the authority just to say summarily -- I 5 mean, we can accept -- when we -- for example, 6 when somebody applies for a license and they 7 essentially turn it in and say I'm going to 8 surrender the license, the committee 9 recommendation becomes a part of the file, and the 10 file goes before the entire council. The 11 committee of five isn't able to determine for a 12 council of 15. 13 There's not a -- and so an 14 agreement that was made and essentially accepted 15 by the committee is nothing more than a 16 gentlemen's agreement is what I'm trying to 17 suggest here. 18 And so if we accepted a gentlemen's 19 agreement and they agreed to it and didn't turn in 20 their license on a temporary basis, they did so 21 under their own discretion that somehow between 22 the City Attorney's office, I don't know that it's 23 legally binding, first and foremost, because I 24 don't think that the council -- we never disposed 25 of the file. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 163 1 The file never went before the 2 council. The council never ratified that as part 3 of an agreement; therefore, does the committee 4 have the jurisdiction essentially to make a 5 decision on a motion to undo a gentlemen's 6 agreement and say now here's your license. That's 7 what I'm trying to say. 8 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: So it isn't 9 necessary? 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I would probably guess 11 if that was part of the stipulation, that my 12 reading of the gentlemen's agreement would be -- 13 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: I mean, because to 14 be quite honest -- 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I would sort of view it 16 as they get their license back at this point 17 pending the outcome of the 60 days and that the 60 18 days are binding unless it was otherwise 19 stipulated. 20 Unless you want to just clarify 21 that as part of the motion to say whether or not 22 you want to agree to the -- at least language that 23 was contained therein or if the 60 days should go 24 above and beyond any time already served 25 voluntarily surrendering a license pending the Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 164 1 outcome. 2 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Well, the spirit of 3 the motion was that it would go above and beyond 4 because if the consideration was taken that they 5 surrendered their license, that they were 6 participating, they recognized they didn't want 7 to, you know, go and operate while this was -- 8 while this was pending, it was a show of good 9 faith and cooperation. 10 So the motion is made in that 11 spirit, and I think that, you know, that the 60 12 days was -- you know, that it wasn't the 13 surrendering that was the punishment. It's the 60 14 days. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 16 MR. PEDERSON: I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. I 17 feel compelled to just make one brief comment here 18 to make clear that pursuant to that agreement on 19 behalf of the chief of police, I did agree to 20 jointly recommend that they be given credit in the 21 event of a suspension. Obviously, it's your 22 position, but pursuant to that agreement, I am 23 bound to recommend that on behalf of the chief of 24 police. 25 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chairman? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 165 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Coggs. 2 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I'm going to support 3 a motion as it was made for the 60 days to begin 4 if and when the full council, predicated on our 5 decision here, because I think it's a slippery 6 slope for us to get involved with deals like this 7 because only being here a year, I can remember at 8 least two or three other times where people tried 9 to do similar deals and we rejected it or people 10 who voluntarily closed down for a period of time 11 and then we gave it a suspension saying well, 12 shouldn't that count because I've already -- and I 13 just think that's a slippery slope and a door that 14 we should not be opening. So I'm going to support 15 a motion. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We're a legislative body 17 not bound by whether the chief of police says 18 somebody -- he agrees whether somebody ought to be 19 open or not for the City Attorney's office for 20 that matter. 21 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Can a gentlemen's 22 agreement -- as the only woman who's here who -- 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Gentlemen and ladies' 24 agreement. 25 (Laughter.) Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 166 1 MR. WHITCOMB: Whoa. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: More than one lady, and 3 our licensing manager. 4 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I mean voting woman. 5 MR. SCHRIMPF: And Mr. Chairman, there 6 is a procedure set forth in 90-12-7, Subsection B, 7 and basically the procedure is is that the 8 licensee requests the return of the license. The 9 ordinance says in writing. I think we're on the 10 record here. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, we'll entertain a 12 motion -- 13 MR. SCHRIMPF: But there is a procedure 14 for doing it. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We'll entertain a motion 16 by Alderman Zielinski to, first off, waive the 17 requirement of 90-12-7 for placing that request in 18 writing. Is there any objection to that motion? 19 Okay. I'll hear it unless somehow 20 City Clerk or City Attorney's office renders 21 otherwise. Motion by Alderman Zielinski would be 22 pending the outcome of the 60-day recommendation 23 made by Alderman Hamilton who clarified that it 24 was the spirit of the motion to -- to have that as 25 60 days. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 167 1 You know what? Why don't we move 2 reconsideration, Alderman Hamilton, and just to 3 clarify, make certain that the motion is spelled 4 out cleanly. Do you want to -- rather than have 5 you state -- that way we can be sure that there's 6 at least a majority vote on that. 7 Motion for reconsideration on 8 the -- on the recommendation for 60-day suspension 9 made by Alderman Hamilton. Any objection to that 10 motion? 11 Then the motion by Alderman 12 Hamilton is to recommend a 60-day suspension. The 13 motion would be made to have that suspension take 14 effect 60 days from -- from the common council 15 meeting if that motion is accepted by the common 16 council at the upcoming June 16th common council 17 meeting. So any suspension will take effect 60 18 days from the ratification by the entire common 19 council. 20 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman, I want to 21 make sure I understand the motion. You're saying 22 that they're going to be able to operate for 60 23 days from the date -- 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No, no. 25 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's how it sounded. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 168 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No. The motion would be 2 for a 60-day suspension. 3 MR. SCHRIMPF: All right. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The 60-day suspension 5 would commence -- 6 MR. SCHRIMPF: On date of council 7 action. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- at the date of 9 council action provided it is ratified by the 10 common council. 11 MR. WHITCOMB: With no credit for time 12 served? 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: With no credit for time 14 served. Is that the motion? 15 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: That's the motion. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 17 MR. WHITCOMB: And the license returned, 18 right? 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And the license would be 20 returned in the interim time until such time that 21 action would be taken by the common council at 22 that June 16th hearing. 23 Is that -- do we want that a 24 separate motion, Alderman Hamilton, or are you 25 willing to make that part of your motion? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 169 1 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Which part? 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: This would be that the 3 license would be returned at this point pending 4 the council's decision on the 60-day 5 recommendation. 6 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: We can make that 7 part of the motion. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are there any questions 9 about the motion at this point here? Is there any 10 additional discussion on the motion? 11 Other than consistent with my 12 previously stated comments, are there any 13 objections to the motion? Hearing my own 14 objection, the motion will carry on a four to one 15 vote. 16 Now, we have the matter of 17 Item No. 5, which is File No. 081330, a Motion 18 relating to the revocation of the Class "B" 19 Manager license for Eddie Nuell for "All Star 20 Sports Bar" at 4001 W. Fond du Lac Avenue. 21 Is there a motion? We're on Item 22 No. 5 before the committee. The same rules 23 essentially would apply because the deal that was 24 agreed upon was that it was with regard to both 25 licenses. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 170 1 MR. PEDERSON: Yes. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: You know, for a 3 manager to try and destroy evidence, surveillance 4 evidence and to hide a gun, this is, you know, 5 pretty serious stuff, and I think that it wasn't 6 enough to take away the license of the 7 establishment. 8 The license of the establishment 9 was saved, and the establishment could come back, 10 but it was pretty egregious, you know, actions by 11 a person in a position of high responsibility. 12 And so based upon the information 13 provided, I would move for revocation of the 14 license. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Motion by 16 Alderman Zielinski would be to support the 17 complaint and the finding for a revocation of the 18 Class "B" Manager license for Eddie J. Nuell. 19 Is there any discussions on the 20 motion? If we could have a roll call on the 21 motion, please. 22 MS. BLACK: Alderman Hamilton? 23 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Aye. 24 MS. BLACK: Alderman Kovac? 25 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Aye. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 171 1 MS. BLACK: Alderman Coggs? 2 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Aye. 3 MS. BLACK: Alderman Zielinski? 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Aye. 5 MS. BLACK: Mr. Chair? 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Aye. The motion will 7 prevail. Mr. Schrimpf? 8 MR. SCHRIMPF: Once again, Mr. Whitcomb, 9 the committee will produce findings of fact and 10 conclusions of law recommending revocation of the 11 Class "B" manager's license of Mr. Eddie Nuell. 12 You'll receive a copy of that. I'll assume you'll 13 accept service on that? 14 MR. WHITCOMB: I shall. 15 MR. SCHRIMPF: If you wish to submit 16 written objections to that recommendation, they 17 must be received in Room 205, I guess it is now 18 again, by 4:45 p.m. on June 11th, 2009. 19 If you submit written objections to 20 that recommendation, then you'll also have the 21 ability to appear before the Milwaukee Common 22 Council when they consider this matter at 23 approximately 9:00 a.m. on June 16th, 2009, in the 24 council chambers of this building. 25 MR. WHITCOMB: Thank you. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 172 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Before we 2 adjourn, I just want to make a very brief comment. 3 One of the individuals who this 4 committee knows very well, one of our normal court 5 reporters, Jean Barina, lost her husband this 6 week, Ralph, and she was -- one of the reasons why 7 her company is not here today with us is because 8 his services were held today. So our prayers and 9 thoughts go out to Jean and to those friends and 10 family here of Ralph. 11 With that, is there any other 12 business to come before this committee? 13 MR. PEDERSON: I hate to say it, but 14 just one last point for consideration of the 15 committee. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yes. 17 MR. PEDERSON: It's my knowledge that 18 Mr. Eddie Nuell and Mr. Marcus Nuell still have 19 bartender's licenses. So it's my understanding 20 that he could be a bartender tonight. I don't 21 know if that is something -- 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And ultimately, there's 23 one other truth, Mr. Pederson, and that is if 24 there is a person who's a holder of a valid 25 bartender's license, he would be able to work even Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 173 1 if we denied that, under the management and 2 discretion of an individual who does hold a valid 3 bartender's license. 4 So even if we were denying him, as 5 long as there's another valid bartender holder 6 there, he's working under their management and 7 direction; hence, what happens when you have very 8 powerful tavern meetings in Wisconsin. 9 With that, we stand adjourned. 10 (Proceedings concluded at 1:15 p.m.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 174 1 STATE OF WISCONSIN ) ) SS: 2 COUNTY OF MILWAUKEE ) 3 I, Debbie A. Harnen, a Certified Shorthand 4 Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of 5 Wisconsin, do hereby certify that the foregoing 6 proceedings were reported by me to the best of my 7 ability and reduced to writing under my personal 8 direction. 9 I further certify that I am not a relative 10 or employee or attorney or counsel of any of the 11 parties, or a relative or employee of such attorney or 12 counsel, or financially interested directly or 13 indirectly in this action. 14 In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my 15 hand and affixed my seal of office at Milwaukee, 16 Wisconsin, this 8th day of June, 2009. 17 18 19 Debbie A. Harnen - Notary Public 20 In and for the State of Wisconsin 21 My Commission Expires: September 12, 2010. 22 23 24 25 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878