00001 1 2 CITY OF MILWAUKEE 3 LICENSES COMMITTEE 4 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 5 In the Matter of the Class "B" Tavern and Tavern 6 Amusement (CAbaret/Nite Club) renewal applications for: 7 ERETTA A. HONEY 8 STARGAZERS, LLC 7158 West Fond du Lac Avenue 9 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 10 11 12 Proceedings had in the above-entitled 13 matter, before the COMMON COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF 14 MILWAUKEE, on the 8th day of May, 2007. 15 16 * * * * * 00002 1 2 P R O C E E D I N G S 3 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Thank you, Mr. 4 President. I move to - - I move renewal of the 5 Class "B" Tavern license and nonrenewal of the 6 Tavern Amusement (Cabaret/Nite Club) license for 7 the following establishment, notwithstanding the 8 committee's recommendation. Eretta Honey, Agent 9 for "Stargazers, LLC", Class "B" Tavern and 10 Tavern Amusement (Cabaret/Nite Club) renewal 11 application for "Stargazers" at 7158 West Fond du 12 Lac Avenue. 13 PRESIDENT HINES: Alderman Davis, if I 14 may, I'd like to dispose of item number eight. 15 We'll then come back to item number seven, and we 16 will hear that one at that particular point in 17 time. 18 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Thank you. 19 PRESIDENT HINES: Thank you, as well, 20 sir. Are there any additional - - additional 21 actions as it relates to item number eight? 22 (Whereupon item number eight was 23 concluded.) 24 PRESIDENT HINES: We will now go back 25 to item number seven and hear from Alderman 00003 1 Davis. Alderman Davis, go right ahead, sir. 2 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Thank - - Thank you, 3 Mr. President. Just as to related to file number 4 061377, to move to the renewal of the Class "B" 5 Tavern license and nonrenewal of the Tavern 6 Amusement (Cabaret/Nite Club) license for the 7 following establishment, notwithstanding the 8 committee's recommendation. It's Eretta Honey, 9 Agent for "Stargazers, LLC", Class "B" Tavern and 10 Tavern Amusement (Cabaret/Nite Club) renewal 11 application for "Stargazers" at 7158 West Fond du 12 Lac Avenue. 13 PRESIDENT HINES: On the motion, 14 Alderman Davis, go right ahead, please. 15 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. President, this 16 item came before the Utilities & Licensing 17 Committee. I was not able to attend. My 18 Legislative Aide attended, and moved my - - my 19 position and I - - that I had on this particular 20 location. At that time I did have a constituent 21 who came down and testified about finding bullets 22 located inside of her home. At that particular 23 time, understanding that there was no police 24 report at that time during the committee's 25 deliberation, it was very interesting that I had 00004 1 to contact the police department, and also, the 2 Open Records Division, to try to get as much 3 documentation on this issue, which was verified 4 that shots had occurred at this particular 5 location. And for your information, I personally 6 went out to my constituent's home and took shots 7 on where the - - the bullet actually entered 8 through the exterior into the person's home, and 9 was deflected by an item that was sitting on the 10 shelf. 11 Mr. President, I understand that this 12 is an issue that Council members may feel very 13 concerned about. My issue is this. It's 14 becoming a lot more violent out here on the 15 street where we have people who just feel that 16 they can take out weapons and just fire them 17 randomly in our community. And I've already had 18 a homicide at this particular location, where the 19 establishment has voluntarily shut down. And now 20 that they're opened up again, I'm finding out 21 another incident that has occurred. But the - - 22 I guess the most egregious act is where the 23 applicant goes before the Licensing Committee and 24 denies and lies, along with her staff, that this 25 issue never occurred. In the police report, 00005 1 there was casings found, fresh casings, right 2 outside of this doorway. And I'm just asking the 3 Council to take a position on issues that occur 4 at liquor establishments where providers aren't 5 being responsible. There should be no reason why 6 people are taking weapons and firing them 7 randomly in the public on the street. It's just 8 totally unacceptable. And I'm not asking to shut 9 down the business. What I'm asking to do is I'm 10 asking to take the license away. I'm asking to 11 take the cabaret license away and grant - - grant 12 the Class "B" tavern license. And I so move. 13 PRESIDENT HINES: Thank you, Alderman. 14 That's an appropriate motion. Are there any 15 additional questions or comments on the motion? 16 The Chair recognizes Alderman Puente. 17 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Thank you, Mr. 18 President. I, too, have concerns, obviously, 19 with any type of shooting anywhere in this City. 20 However, we have to make sure that we are 21 connecting the dots here. And if, in fact, the 22 shooting did come from this location, I'm all in 23 favor of the recommendation. But in my quest to 24 always treat people fairly and equally, I have to 25 ask are we positive or beyond a reasonable doubt 00006 1 that the shooting did come from the Stargazers 2 parking lot. I know in reading this police 3 report there were casings found, and that there 4 was a bullet removed from the house. Can we 5 connect the bullet to any of the casings that 6 were at Stargazers. And then after that, I have 7 another question. 8 PRESIDENT HINES: Alderman, did you 9 want to respond to that, Alderman Davis? 10 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Yes. And I thank 11 Alderman Puente, because we discussed this item 12 early, and he's being true to his word that he 13 indicated he would ask this question. And - - 14 And with all fairness, I understand why he's 15 asking that question. 16 I contacted the Open Records Division, 17 and I also contacted the Milwaukee Police 18 Department. Unfortunately, this is not a 19 priority. They told me that generally they don't 20 run ballistics tests on things that they find. 21 And I also posed the question to them, well, if a 22 homicide would have occurred and that bullet was 23 retrieved from a victim, would they run the 24 ballistic test. And they said, "Yes." 25 Unfortunately, it's just one of these things 00007 1 where things occurred. There is still a 2 detective's report that we have pending open 3 records request to be sent to my office that has 4 not been received. And, you know, I'm 5 disappointed that I don't have the information in 6 order for, you know, Council members to really 7 get a good understanding about it. 8 But in the police report, and I trust 9 the coppers that are out there on the street, 10 specifically, a Police Officer Miller, who said 11 that more than likely that particular shot came 12 from the Stargazers parking lot, based upon a 13 call for service in which they investigated over 14 at that lot. And the detective's report, had we 15 had it, will reveal that there were - - there 16 were people who were interviewed on the parking 17 lot of Stargazers at that particular time when 18 this call came in. 19 PRESIDENT HINES: Thank you, Alderman. 20 Alderman Puente, please continue. 21 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Thank you. As those 22 who are familiar with guns, I think that we don't 23 need to know if the bullet actually came from a 24 particular gun in the ballistic report. But that 25 a 40 caliber is different than a nine millimeter, 00008 1 is different than a 38, a 380 and so on and so 2 forth. So I would think that the police could at 3 least tell you that much, if the size of the 4 bullet came from one of the casings. But I 5 understand we don't have that information. 6 My second question is last Council 7 meeting there was items brought before us that, 8 along with this one here now today, is the second 9 time, and I have to question it now. Being on 10 the Licensing for over three years and sitting 11 close to the Assistant City Attorney - - 12 PRESIDENT HINES: Will we keep it to 13 the item that's before us, Alderman? 14 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Absolutely. 15 PRESIDENT HINES: There we go. 16 Continue, please. 17 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Because it is this 18 report that I am referring to, Mr. President. 19 PRESIDENT HINES: Okay. Please 20 continue. 21 ALDERMAN PUENTE: That this is being 22 brought before us now, as items at the last 23 Common Council, that were not heard at the 24 Licensing Committee. And sitting at the 25 Licensing Committee, the Assistant City Attorney 00009 1 always brings up the findings of facts and such 2 as that. And that are we, as a Council now, 3 looking at these things and not affording the 4 licensees to see the same things we are, and do 5 we have a problem with this, the legality of it. 6 So I ask that - - I'd like the answer to this 7 now. 8 PRESIDENT HINES: That's - - I clearly 9 understand your concern. That's not the motion 10 that's before us. But what we can do, though, is 11 if there is a desire to go into the Committee of 12 the Whole to pose that question to the City 13 Attorney, then we can do that, if that your wish. 14 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Yes, I would, please. 15 PRESIDENT HINES: Okay. Alderman 16 Puente would like to go into the Committee of the 17 Whole for the purpose of have - - having that 18 question answered. Clearly it's related to, not 19 only new information that has come regarding this 20 applicant, but it has occurred previously. So I 21 understand the nature of that question. Are 22 there any objections as it relates to going into 23 the Committee of the Whole? 24 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chairman, on that 25 motion. 00010 1 PRESIDENT HINES: Yes, Alderman. 2 ALDERMAN DAVIS: I just want to make 3 sure that this is not new information. There was 4 public testimony at committee about this 5 particular incident. The unfortunate thing about 6 it is the reports were not there at that time 7 when I had a constituent who testified before the 8 Licensing Committee that this issue occurred. 9 And the - - The applicant lied and said that it 10 did not occur. And what I'm doing is I tried to 11 do my due diligence. I apologize. But I can't 12 apologize for a department who should have had 13 this information as part of the file. 14 So my - - My responsibility is that if 15 I have a constituent who is speaking out saying 16 an incident has occurred, and the proper 17 documentation from the City of Milwaukee is not 18 available, I have to seek that out, and that's 19 what I did on this issue. 20 PRESIDENT HINES: Okay, Alderman. 21 Alderman Bohl, and then Alderman Puente. 22 Alderman Bohl, you were objecting or there was a 23 comment to be made on the motion. 24 ALDERMAN BOHL: It was a comment, but I 25 don't know if we were going to go into the 00011 1 Committee of the Whole first or were we waiting 2 for the Assistant City Attorney to - - 3 PRESIDENT HINES: Well, the motion was 4 before us to go into the Committee of the Whole. 5 There was one objection that I was aware of. Are 6 there any additional objections? Alderman 7 D'Amato? 8 ALDERMAN D'AMATO: Mr. Chairman - - Mr. 9 President, I just want to say I abstain. I 10 didn't observe the hearing, and I haven't read 11 any of the findings of facts that weren't 12 available, so I abstain on this vote. 13 PRESIDENT HINES: Okay. Thank you. 14 ALDERMAN BOHL: There were no findings. 15 PRESIDENT HINES: With that being the 16 case, there is only one objection to going into 17 the Committee of the Whole. There's - - 18 ALDERMAN WADE: I'm not - - I'm not 19 objecting. I want to speak on the matter. 20 PRESIDENT HINES: Before we go into the 21 Committee of the Whole or on the motion? 22 ALDERMAN WADE: I'd like - - I'd like 23 to speak on it before we go into the Committee of 24 the Whole. 25 PRESIDENT HINES: On the motion of the 00012 1 Committee of the Whole that's on the table by 2 Alderman Puente. Alderman Wade, go right ahead, 3 sir. 4 ALDERMAN WADE: Thank you, Mr. 5 President. I think we have a serious process 6 problem here, and I think the City Attorney 7 probably will speak to that. The big problem 8 here is that we didn't have this in front of us 9 as findings of fact at the committee level. We 10 had someone come in, the constituent came in. 11 She brought evidence of a bullet being in her 12 house. We weren't able, just like my colleague 13 said, we weren't able to connect the bullet in 14 her house from the casings found at the 15 Stargazers, because at that time there was no 16 information regarding casings found at 17 Stargazers. Even though the - - the lady came in 18 and presented her case - - 19 PRESIDENT HINES: Alderman, let me ask 20 you. Do you object to going into the Committee 21 of the Whole, or do you want - - 22 ALDERMAN WADE: I do not object to 23 going into the Committee of the Whole, but I'd 24 like to speak on this before we go into the 25 Committee of the Whole. I thought you granted me 00013 1 permission to do that. 2 PRESIDENT HINES: I thought it was 3 going to be on as it related to the motion. 4 You're deviating from the motion, Alderman. 5 ALDERMAN WADE: Okay. 6 PRESIDENT HINES: Come back to the 7 motion, and that's not a problem. 8 ALDERMAN WADE: Okay. Well, I - - We 9 can wait until after the committee - - after 10 that, but I do want to speak on this, because 11 it's a serious processing problem here. We 12 didn't have evidence, nor did the licensee have 13 this evidence to defend themselves, and there was 14 testimony given from several people. 15 PRESIDENT HINES: Well, what will 16 happen is when the motion, then put that before 17 us, then we can make a determination at that 18 particular point in time. 19 ALDERMAN WADE: Okay. 20 PRESIDENT HINES: Is there any 21 objection to going into the Committee of the 22 Whole? I think there was Alderman McGee as one. 23 No other ones. We are now in the Committee of 24 the Whole to hear from - - the question of 25 Alderman Puente posed and asked an answer by the 00014 1 Assistant - - Assistant City Attorney. Alderman 2 Puente posed it. Did you get the question, 3 Assistant City Attorney? 4 MR. SCHRIMPF: I - - I think I did, Mr. 5 President. 6 PRESIDENT HINES: Go right ahead. 7 MR. SCHRIMPF: Bruce Schrimpf from the 8 City Attorney's office. You have at this point 9 actually a considerable due process problem, 10 because the structure of the testimony in front 11 of the committee was the objecting neighbor who 12 came in and actually produced the model car that 13 had been damaged, assertively by the bullet 14 coming into her home. This was countered by the 15 testimony of the licensee, as well as a number of 16 her security guards who were in the parking lot 17 who testified that no such thing happened in the 18 parking lot at the time in question. 19 We now have a police report, which was 20 not in evidence at the time, had not been 21 produced by that time, which doesn't really 22 answer the question of where the - - the bullets 23 originated from, but certainly is another step in 24 bringing it closer to identifying it with the 25 parking lot of this establishment. 00015 1 The problem that you have is that 2 because the committee recommended renewal, and I 3 believe renewal with a warning letter, the - - 4 there were no findings of fact produced. There 5 was no notice to the licensee of this. The 6 licensee has not had a chance to see this 7 document and attempt to refute it, which she may 8 or may not be able to do. So to proceed at this 9 juncture with evidence that was not before the 10 committee puts the licensee in a bad way, and 11 could conceivably put the Common Council in a bad 12 way were this to go to court and were it to be 13 appealed, not on the issue of - - of the 14 substance of what the Council does, but on the 15 due process that was afforded the licensee. 16 Normally when a thing like this occurs, 17 a - - a way of handling it is to either send it 18 back to committee if there's enough time before 19 this license expires, and off the top of my head, 20 I don't know that. If there's not enough time to 21 send it back to committee for another hearing on 22 the issue before the license expires, then it is 23 possible to go ahead and renew the license and 24 specifically exclude this incident in the motion, 25 and then, file a complaint seeking revocation of 00016 1 the license. That would be another way of 2 handling it. If there's any other questions, I'd 3 be happy to try and answer them. 4 PRESIDENT HINES: Okay. There are a 5 number of lights on, and I want to hope that they 6 are for the Assistant City Attorney. And if not, 7 then bear with me. Alderman Puente, any 8 additional questions? 9 ALDERMAN PUENTE: No, thank you. 10 PRESIDENT HINES: Okay. Thank you. 11 Alderman - - Alderman Zielinski, I know that 12 there was a question to be posed. Go right 13 ahead, Alderman. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you, Mr. 15 Chairman. I have a procedural question of 16 Attorney Schrimpf. Given the totality of 17 evidence that was presented before the committee, 18 in your opinion, is there sufficient evidence for 19 us to approve this motion, excluding this 20 additional information that was brought to our 21 attention? 22 MR. SCHRIMPF: When you say, "approve 23 the motion." Oh - - In other words, to - - No, 24 because the licensee has not had notice that 25 their license - - They believe their license is 00017 1 going to be renewed with a warning letter. And 2 - - And the problem that you have is the licensee 3 has not had a chance to come forward and make her 4 position known. So you have - - You have a huge 5 due process problem here. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. But what 7 I'm saying is if we remove the additional 8 information that was presented to us, at the 9 committee was there any information that was 10 presented to the committee that would be 11 sufficient to warrant supporting this motion? 12 MR. SCHRIMPF: No. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No. That's all. 14 MR. SCHRIMPF: And - - And the issue is 15 not so much the testimony, but the issue is the 16 procedural posture that this thing is in right 17 now. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 19 PRESIDENT HINES: Thank you, Alderman. 20 Chair recognizes Alderman Hamilton. 21 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Thank you, Mr. 22 President. I wanted to get a couple things 23 clear, just so I can understand what process is 24 due the applicant. When he was noticed about the 25 hearing, the - - the Licensing Committee hearing, 00018 1 he was notified at that time that there would be 2 a hearing today, and that his appli - - No? His 3 application would not be - - His application 4 would not be final until it was voted on at this 5 - - at this Council meeting, and, you know, did 6 - - did he have to be notified that any new 7 evidence or anything at that point would be 8 introduced at this - - at this hearing? 9 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, first of all the 10 licensee, how the Statute envisions this whole 11 thing working, and then I'll show you where the 12 disconnect is, is that if it's the intention of 13 the Council - - These are the words of the 14 Statute. If it's the intention of the Council 15 not to renew the license or to renew it or - - 16 with a suspension, then the licensee has to be 17 notified of that fact. Okay. Now, the licensee 18 was notified of the fact that there was a police 19 objection, and that there were neighborhood 20 objections at the time of the License Committee 21 hearing. The Licenses Committee took all the 22 evidence they had at that time and recommended 23 renewal with a warning letter. As a result, no 24 findings of fact come out. It is put on what the 25 Council colloquially refers to as the grant list. 00019 1 And that's the posture the licensee believes this 2 is in. 3 So now, for the Council to come along 4 at this juncture and say, whoops, we're going to 5 nonrenew the license or renew it with some kind 6 of a suspension, the licensee has absolutely no 7 notice of that, or the reasons, the underlying 8 reasons why it changed from a renewal, 9 recommendation of a renewal to something else. 10 And the Statute does clearly envision that the 11 licensee have an opportunity to come and refute 12 whatever information is being used to not renew 13 the license. So you - - You don't have an 14 evidentiary problem at this point, because the 15 evidence at that - - at the committee level was 16 rather mixed, quite honestly. But procedurally, 17 the licensee believes that this matter is now on 18 a grant list. 19 Well, you're going to not do that if 20 the motion, as made, goes through. And then 21 what's going to happen is that the licensee, 22 perhaps, maybe not, certainly has an opportunity 23 to go to court and say wait a minute. They 24 renewed me with a suspension, or nonrenewed me, 25 and I had absolutely no warning or notice as to 00020 1 the underlying reasons. And quite frankly, a 2 judge is going to say you're right. Because of 3 the process, the posture this thing is in right 4 now. 5 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Okay. And then, 6 the second thing with the status of the incident 7 report now, and if it is renewed without this 8 incident being part of the renewal, absent this 9 one, and a revocation was pursued, and that one - 10 - and - - and the revocation isn't successful, 11 would this incident still be on the table for the 12 regular cycle renewal a year from now? 13 MR. SCHRIMPF: Not if it were 14 considered as part of a revocation. 15 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Okay. 16 MR. SCHRIMPF: Because - - Because then 17 what has happened is the - - the evidence on that 18 was heard at the revocation proceeding, and if 19 it's not revoked or not suspended, then the 20 posture of the thing is okay, that is just one 21 incident that went nowhere. 22 ALEXANDER HAMILTON: Okay. 23 PRESIDENT HINES: Alderman Bohl. 24 ALDERMAN BOHL: Mr. President, I just 25 want to further respond to the question posed by 00021 1 Alderman Hamilton. 2 PRESIDENT HINES: Is there a response 3 or an additional question, follow-up question? 4 ALDERMAN BOHL: No. No, I have no 5 additional questions. I just wanted to further 6 respond - - 7 PRESIDENT HINES: That's now made, 8 Alderman. I mean, I think the City Attorney 9 answered. I think he was comfortable with it, so 10 there may not be a need to - - to elaborate much 11 further as it relates to answering his questions, 12 because questions are being posed to the City 13 Attorney. 14 ALDERMAN BOHL: I think that there was 15 something the City Attorney left out, and that's 16 - - that's why I just want to expound on it. 17 PRESIDENT HINES: Are you satisfied 18 with the answer, Alderman? 19 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: I would - - I would 20 - - I would listen to the information. 21 PRESIDENT HINES: Go right ahead, 22 Alderman. 23 ALDERMAN BOHL: I just - - And for - - 24 for not only Alderman Hamilton but the 25 edification of the committee, or the Council, the 00022 1 committee found it troubling that the police 2 report was not provided to us. I think that that 3 was an issue of - - of when the police 4 investigation was done, based on the timing of 5 when the license was applied for. Having the 6 lack of a police report and the lack of notice by 7 the applicant, the specific motion that was made 8 excluded this particular item from the motion. 9 So ultimately it - - what I wanted to relay is we 10 did leave open the possibility for this item to - 11 - to be utilized, either in a revocation 12 proceeding or in a future hearing, even if it's 13 the renewal next year. I just wanted to make 14 that perfectly clear. 15 MR. SCHRIMPF: Thank - - Thank you, 16 Alderman Bohl. That is correct. 17 PRESIDENT HINES: Thank you, Alderman 18 Bohl. Appreciate that. Alderman Witkowiak. 19 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Thank you, Mr. 20 President. Could someone just check to see if 21 there is enough time to send this matter back to 22 committee, because that would - - might make our 23 decision what we want to do a little bit easier. 24 ALDERMAN BOHL: Mr. President, I - - I 25 believe we did ask that at committee, and I - - 00023 1 and I do - - don't believe that it was timely. 2 PRESIDENT HINES: Correct. That's what 3 we have confirmed, and that's, as I understand, 4 as well. Alderman, did you want us - - We don't 5 have adequate time. 6 MR. SCHRIMPF: You don't have enough 7 time, because the - - Apparently the next Council 8 meeting is the 30th, and this license expires on 9 the 29th. 10 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Thank you. 11 PRESIDENT HINES: Alderman Bauman. 12 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Yeah, thank you, Mr. 13 President. Attorney Schrimpf, as I understand 14 your - - your argument, or your recommendation to 15 us, any license which is listed on the grant 16 list, the Council has no ability to amend or 17 disprove, is what you're telling us. 18 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well - - 19 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: We are bound by the 20 recommendation of the committee. If the 21 committee's action is to, in effect, place the 22 license on item seven, the grant list, Alderman 23 Davis - - Alderman Davis' motion can't - - can't 24 ever happen in connection with those licenses, 25 and if the time to expire is too short, we can't 00024 1 even send it to committee. So, in effect, the 2 power of the full Council to approve or disprove 3 licenses has been co-opted by the committee 4 recommendation. 5 MR. SCHRIMPF: I did not mean to infer 6 that at all, Alderman Bauman. In fact, I said 7 where there is enough time you can send it back. 8 This body ultimately makes the choice. But the 9 - - the fact of the matter is, is that there's a 10 process that's laid out in the Statutes, and each 11 step along that process moves you somewhat 12 closer. And the - - the drop dead, if you will, 13 is when the license expires, because the li - - 14 If you - - If you look at every other - - 15 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: All right. All 16 right. I - - I understand. And on this due 17 process argument, just to follow up on what 18 Alderman Ham - - Hamilton suggested, I assume 19 this particular applicant was given the standard 20 notice, prior to the committee hearing, that 21 their license might not be renewed based on 22 certain facts and evidence that may come forward. 23 Correct? 24 MR. SCHRIMPF: Yes. 25 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: So they were 00025 1 originally put on notice that their license 2 renewal was in jeopardy based on whatever the 3 factors were that were listed in the notice. 4 Correct? 5 MR. SCHRIMPF: That is correct. 6 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: And it would seem to 7 me then, therefore, logical that they - - they 8 remain on notice continuously up to and through 9 this meeting. 10 MR. SCHRIMPF: No. There I dis - - 11 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Yes, because the 12 committee is making a recommendation. 13 PRESIDENT HINES: Alderman - - Alderman 14 - - Alderman, he'll give you the interpretation 15 of the legislation. He's our attorney. Go right 16 ahead, Alderman. Go right ahead, Assistant City 17 Attorney. Answer the question, please. 18 MR. SCHRIMPF: Thank you. The problem 19 that you have is, is that as you're moving along 20 these steps the licensee does not have notice of 21 this morning's meeting, and the licensee does not 22 have notice that at this particular meeting the 23 Council is thinking of nonrenewing or suspending 24 the license. 25 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: It is a problem with 00026 1 our procedure, because Alderman Davis and any 2 other Alderman here should have the right to do 3 exactly what he's doing, based on whatever 4 factors may come to his knowledge, and we're 5 basically telling us we have no choice but to 6 approve the renewal of this license because of 7 the timing and the fact that the committee put it 8 on the grant list, and, therefore, the applicant 9 did not receive an additional notice that the 10 matter might be considered here for possible 11 amendment or nonrenewal. 12 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's what I'm telling 13 you, but I'm also telling you that this Council 14 has the ability, in order to avoid the lapse, of 15 renewing it, and at the same time filing a 16 complaint seeking revocation. That is certainly 17 within your ability to do. And you could send it 18 right back for consideration before the committee 19 on a complaint of revocation. And she would have 20 to come in here and respond to it, and then all 21 the evidence that Alderman Davis has and any 22 other evidence that might be induced up until 23 then, can then be put into the record. 24 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: And wouldn't the 25 police report constitute new evidence that we 00027 1 could justify sending it back to committee 2 anyway, even if it does expire? 3 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, yes. But the 4 problem - - 5 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Thank you. 6 MR. SCHRIMPF: The problem that you 7 have is you have to avoid a lapse of the license. 8 Otherwise what's going to happen - - I don't - - 9 Again, I don't know that it would. But otherwise 10 what can happen is the licensee goes to court and 11 says, "Look. They're going to cause a lapse of 12 my license," and the court then issues some sort 13 of an injunction allowing them to stay open 14 pending further action of this Council. And the 15 court would probably do that. But now you've got 16 a bar that's unlicensed and operating under a 17 court order. And that's an unsavory situation in 18 the best of circumstances. 19 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Why? 20 MR. SCHRIMPF: Because now you have no 21 regulation over that bar. You have a court 22 that's regulating the bar. 23 PRESIDENT HINES: Sometimes whether or 24 not you like the explanation or not, it is what 25 it is. 00028 1 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: I'm not sure that's 2 correct, but that's fine. 3 PRESIDENT HINES: The Chair recognizes 4 Alderman Puente. 5 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Okay. Thank you, Mr. 6 President. Following up on the last question. 7 We can decide a different outcome of a license, 8 based on the facts that were presented at 9 licensing, too. 10 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's correct. 11 ALDERMAN PUENTE: So based on that in 12 this situation, Alderman Davis could come before 13 us and say he wants to do it because of the facts 14 that were presented at committee. 15 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, but then you - - 16 ALDERMAN PUENTE: But then I understand 17 that there wasn't enough to sustain maybe his 18 recommendation, but given the fact of what 19 Alderman Bauman just said, that - - No, I don't 20 believe that it's - - it's the committee way, if 21 you're going to decide based on the facts that 22 were presented at committee. 23 MR. SCHRIMPF: No. Alderman Puente, 24 the problem that you would have under the 25 approach you're suggesting is that there would be 00029 1 no findings of fact put before the Council that 2 the licensee also had and then given an 3 opportunity to come here. Remember, there is the 4 findings of fact feature that's built into 5 Section 125.12. 6 ALDERMAN PUENTE: And that's only 7 because this was granted? 8 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's correct, 9 because - - 10 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Okay. 11 MR. SCHRIMPF: Because this went 12 through a grant. 13 ALDERMAN PUENTE: So if this was not 14 granted, and let's say it was a ten day 15 suspension or something else, and we could move 16 forward then, because - - Let's say, the - - the 17 individual had a ten day suspension. Could we 18 move forward, given those same circumstances that 19 we have before us now? 20 MR. SCHRIMPF: Yes, then you could, 21 because then - - 22 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Thank you. 23 MR. SCHRIMPF: - - the licensee - - 24 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Okay. 25 MR. SCHRIMPF: - - has been noticed. 00030 1 ALDERMAN PUENTE: I have it. Thank 2 you. 3 PRESIDENT HINES: Thank you, Alderman. 4 Alderman Zielinski, one final? 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Yes, I have one 6 more procedural question. Attorney Schrimpf, had 7 it been the case that we would have had a 8 procedure in - - in - - in place whereby each 9 individual applicant would have been notified of 10 the potentiality of the alderman of that 11 district, or any other alderman, moving to 12 override the recommendation of that committee and 13 providing those finding of facts to the Council, 14 would we have been in a position then to take 15 action along the lines of what Alderman Davis is 16 pursuing? 17 MR. SCHRIMPF: To answer your 18 hypothetical question, the answer is yes. The - - 19 The problem that you have is that when the - - 20 under the Statute. Okay. I'm talking about the 21 Statute now. Under the Statute when you have a 22 recommendation of grant, you don't have findings 23 of fact. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So we do not have 25 the ability to incorporate those features, or do 00031 1 we, for future reference, so we don't find 2 ourself in a similar situation? 3 MR. SCHRIMPF: No, you don't. Because 4 there's no findings of fact that are developed by 5 the committee. That's how the Statute is 6 structured. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: See, I can 8 understand Alderman Davis' concern of approving 9 this today, and then going through the normal 10 process of trying to revoke their license, 11 because I've been through that. It's a lengthy 12 burdensome process, much more difficult than just 13 voting not to renew it. 14 Last question on this. Based on all 15 the information here, what is your recommendation 16 in terms of following the desires of the Council 17 here and at the same time safeguarding us from 18 any kind of legal concerns? 19 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, the cleanest way 20 of doing this would be to simply approve it, not 21 including this incident, which Alderman Bohl 22 pointed out was what the committee did. You now 23 have more information, and based on that 24 information, you draft a complaint seeking 25 revocation based on the incident. That brings it 00032 1 right back to the committee and you'll have your 2 findings of fact. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Is there 4 the same property right interest associated with 5 the Class "B" license as with the amusement 6 cabaret/night club license? 7 MR. SCHRIMPF: Sure. Because both 8 licenses are - - So long as you're dealing with a 9 renewal, both licenses have a certain amount of 10 property interests connected to them for purposes 11 of the renewal. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 13 PRESIDENT HINES: Thank you. Now there 14 are some additional lights on. Now you can ask 15 as many questions as you want, but - - but I 16 don't think the answer is going to change. And I 17 think we've found that to be the case, too, about 18 15 - 20 minutes ago. So let's keep that in mind 19 as we ask questions. There's other methods and 20 manner to achieve what this motion is seeking to 21 do. The Chair recognizes Alderman Davis. 22 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Thank you, Mr. 23 President. Because her - - her license expires 24 on the 29th at midnight, and because the Council 25 will take action on the 30th of May, for those 00033 1 two hours between 12:01 and 1:30, two o'clock in 2 the morning, are you saying, Mr. Schrimpf, that 3 we can't take action because on the 30th the 4 Council will take action on whatever the 5 committee recommends at that particular time? 6 MR. SCHRIMPF: The Council certainly 7 can do that. All I'm advising you is that, and 8 you should be aware of the fact, that that's 9 going to cause a lapse of the license, even for 10 those two hours, and there's a property interest 11 connected with that, and that puts her in the - - 12 in the position where she could seek judicial 13 relief on the point. 14 Now, the Council can go ahead and do 15 it, but I want you to understand what the 16 ramifications might be. And one of the 17 ramifications might be, just to tell you how this 18 works in the courthouse, is that she would go in, 19 seek an injunction, and the judge would give her 20 what we call a "long date." A long date means 21 that she's operating under that injunction for a 22 month, maybe 60 days. In the meantime, the 23 Council takes whatever action they're going to 24 take, and the whole thing is put on hold until 25 the court decides to hold another hearing. In 00034 1 the meantime, she's operating. And in the 2 meantime, if there really are guns in the parking 3 lot of this place, the neighbors are put at that 4 continuous risk while that court proceeding is 5 - - is holding. 6 And I have - - I - - Ladies and gen - - 7 or gentlemen of this body, I have lived through 8 cases that did exactly that. In fact, I'm 9 thinking of a place on Fond du Lac Avenue that 10 was held open under an injunction for months. 11 PRESIDENT HINES: Thank you, Alderman. 12 If there's a desire to - - Let me just - - I 13 can't call the question, but I'd love to. If 14 there's a desire to ask another circular question 15 of argument, I mean, it is what it is. I think 16 we've had enough information. The Chair - - But 17 I - - But your lights are on. No one has called 18 the question. The Chair recognizes Alderman 19 Murphy, to be followed by Alderman Bauman. 20 ALDERMAN MURPHY: I would like to call 21 the question, Mr. President. 22 PRESIDENT HINES: Alderman - - Alderman 23 Bauman cannot speak. That's an appropriate 24 message. Is there any objection to calling the 25 question? 00035 1 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Mr. President, the 2 committee has to rise. 3 PRESIDENT HINES: I know. I know. 4 That's what I was saying. As - - Well, that's 5 the committee. Alderman Murphy moves that the 6 committee rises. Are there any objections to the 7 committee rising? There's one objection. The 8 committee rises. Thank you. The motion is 9 before us. Hopefully, Alderman Puente got his 10 question answered and all of you all got yours 11 answered, as well. With the motion that is still 12 on the table, it's been put forth by Alderman 13 Davis. On the motion, the Chair recognizes 14 Alderman Bauman. 15 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Yes. The reason I 16 had my light on before was to make a motion, 17 which I think supersedes Alderman Davis' motion, 18 and that's to send this matter back to committee, 19 and they can go to court to get an injunction to 20 stay open for two hours, as far as I'm concerned. 21 If that's what they are planning to do. 22 PRESIDENT HINES: That motion is not in 23 writing, and we've taken an ample amount of time 24 on this, Alderman. 25 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Then I need to 00036 1 suspend the rules. 2 PRESIDENT HINES: That's an appropriate 3 motion. He wants to suspend the rules to put his 4 motion on the table. If there are any objection 5 to suspending the rules, other than myself, 6 Alderman - - There's three. We're going to 7 subject it to a vote. The suspension of the 8 rules for the purpose of sending it back to 9 committee. Mr. City Clerk, you want to - - Is 10 that - - 11 It's - - It's something new to me. 12 It's not an amendment. It's a motion. Clearly 13 it can be before us, absent - - absent a 14 suspension of the rules or ask to be in writing, 15 simply because it is a motion and not an 16 amendment. So it is before us. The motion put 17 forth by Alderman Bauman is to refer back to 18 committee. On the motion, Mr. City Clerk, please 19 call the roll. 20 On the motion to refer back to 21 committee. 22 CITY CLERK: Alderman Hamilton? 23 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: No. 24 CITY CLERK: Davis? 25 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Aye. 00037 1 CITY CLERK: D'Amato? 2 PRESIDENT HINES: Excused. 3 CITY CLERK: Bauman? 4 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Aye. 5 CITY CLERK: Bohl? 6 ALDERMAN BOHL: Aye. 7 CITY CLERK: McGee? 8 ALDERMAN MCGEE: No. 9 CITY CLERK: Wade? 10 ALDERMAN WADE: No. 11 CITY CLERK: Donovan? 12 ALDERMAN DONOVAN: Aye. 13 CITY CLERK: Puente? 14 ALDERMAN PUENTE: No. 15 CITY CLERK: Murphy? 16 ALDERMAN MURPHY: No. 17 CITY CLERK: Dudzik? 18 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: No. 19 CITY CLERK: Witkowiak? 20 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Aye. 21 CITY CLERK: Witkowski? 22 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: Aye. 23 CITY CLERK: Zielinski? 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Aye. 25 CITY CLERK: Mr. President? 00038 1 PRESIDENT HINES: No. 2 CITY CLERK: Seven ayes, seven noes, 3 one excused. 4 PRESIDENT HINES: Seven ayes, seven 5 noes, one excused. The motion fails. Alderman 6 Davis' motion is before us. No additional - - 7 Chair recognizes Alderman Zielinski. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: That was a seven, 9 seven vote. If there's a seven, seven vote on 10 approval of this license, then - - 11 PRESIDENT HINES: The motion is before 12 us. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: And that motion 14 remains before us. 15 PRESIDENT HINES: Correct. Alderman 16 Davis' motion is before us. I'm - - I'm - - 17 Right. Alderman Davis' motion is still before 18 us, and that motion needs to be appropriately 19 disposed of. On the motion, as put forth by 20 Alderman Davis, with that being the case, Mr. 21 City Clerk, please call - - please call the roll. 22 CITY CLERK: On the amendment. 23 Alderman Hamilton? 24 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: No. 25 CITY CLERK: Davis? 00039 1 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Aye. 2 CITY CLERK: D'Amato? Excused? 3 PRESIDENT HINES: Excused. 4 CITY CLERK: Bauman? 5 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Aye. 6 CITY CLERK: Bohl? 7 ALDERMAN BOHL: Aye. 8 CITY CLERK: McGee? 9 ALDERMAN MCGEE: No. 10 CITY CLERK: Wade? 11 ALDERMAN WADE: No. 12 CITY CLERK: Donovan? 13 ALDERMAN DONOVAN: Aye. 14 CITY CLERK: Puente? 15 ALDERMAN PUENTE: No. 16 CITY CLERK: Murphy? 17 ALDERMAN MURPHY: No. 18 CITY CLERK: Dudzik? 19 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: No. 20 CITY CLERK: Witkowiak? 21 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Aye. 22 CITY CLERK: Witkowski? 23 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: No. 24 CITY CLERK: Zielinski? 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Aye. 00040 1 CITY CLERK: Mr. President? 2 PRESIDENT HINES: No. 3 CITY CLERK: Six ayes, eight noes, one 4 excused. 5 PRESIDENT HINES: Six ayes, eight noes, 6 one excused. The motion fails. Alderman 7 Witkowiak now moves for - - Are there any addi 8 - - Alderman Witkowiak moves for the adoption of 9 the recommendations of the Licenses Committee. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman. 11 PRESIDENT HINES: Why don't you turn 12 your light on, sir? Alderman Zielinski. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Can we move 14 division of the question on this particular item? 15 Alderman Davis' motion failed, but we still need 16 to formally approve this license, along with the 17 other license. Can we move division of this 18 question? 19 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: My alternate. 20 PRESIDENT HINES: Alderman, we were 21 getting ready to adopt the - - We didn't take it 22 individually. We were getting ready to adopt the 23 committee report, and in essence adoption of the 24 committee report would have adopted what was put 25 forth by the committee. 00041 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Well, what I am 2 asking is if can - - can we move division of the 3 question and vote on this particular item 4 separately? 5 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Separately. 6 PRESIDENT HINES: If you want to take 7 separate action on item number one of this 8 application? 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Yes. 10 PRESIDENT HINES: Is that what you're 11 asking? 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So moved. 13 PRESIDENT HINES: I want to determine 14 whether or not we're capable of doing that. 15 Alderman Hamilton, was there a desire to respond 16 to Alderman Zielinski's or comment on his 17 dividing the question? 18 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: No, I have a - - a 19 motion that I think supersedes his question. 20 PRESIDENT HINES: Relating to this 21 item, Alderman? 22 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Relating to this 23 item. I wanted to move reconsideration of - - of 24 sending it back to committee. 25 PRESIDENT HINES: You were on the 00042 1 prevailing side. You do want to re - - move 2 reconsideration. That's an appropriate motion, 3 given the fact that you were on the prevailing 4 side. Are there any objections to re - - moving 5 to reconsider? 6 ALDERMAN MCGEE: Mr. President. 7 PRESIDENT HINES: Alderman, on 8 reconsideration. 9 ALDERMAN MCGEE: Just a point of infor 10 - - Just a point of information in reference to 11 Alderman Zielinski's question. Can we get an 12 answer to that question? 13 PRESIDENT HINES: We can deal with it. 14 It's - - It's not before us any longer. He's 15 moving reconsideration. And so this one is - - 16 Are there any objections to moving 17 reconsideration? With that being the case, the 18 motion to refer back to committee is before us at 19 this time. On the motion, Mr. City Clerk, please 20 take the roll. 21 CITY CLERK: On the motion to refer 22 this license back to committee. Alderman 23 Hamilton? 24 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Aye. 25 CITY CLERK: Davis? 00043 1 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Aye. 2 CITY CLERK: Excuse me. 3 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Aye. 4 CITY CLERK: D'Amato? 5 ALDERMAN D'AMATO: Abstain. 6 CITY CLERK: Bauman? 7 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Aye. 8 CITY CLERK: Bohl? 9 ALDERMAN BOHL: Aye. 10 CITY CLERK: McGee? 11 ALDERMAN MCGEE: No. 12 CITY CLERK: Wade? Alderman Wade? 13 PRESIDENT HINES: Excused. 14 CITY CLERK: Donovan? 15 ALDERMAN DONOVAN: Aye. 16 CITY CLERK: Puente? 17 ALDERMAN PUENTE: No. 18 CITY CLERK: Murphy? 19 ALDERMAN MURPHY: No. 20 CITY CLERK: Dudzik? 21 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: No. 22 CITY CLERK: Witkowiak? 23 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Aye. 24 CITY CLERK: Witkowski? 25 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: Aye. 00044 1 CITY CLERK: Zielinski? 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Aye. 3 CITY CLERK: Mr. President? 4 PRESIDENT HINES: No. 5 CITY CLERK: Eight ayes, five noes, one 6 excused, one abstained. 7 PRESIDENT HINES: Eight ayes, five 8 noes, one excused, and one abstained. The motion 9 carries. Alderman Witkowiak now moves for the 10 adoption of the recommendations of the licenses 11 committee. Will the City Clerk please call the 12 roll? 13 CITY CLERK: Alderman Hamilton? 14 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Aye. 15 CITY CLERK: Davis? 16 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Aye. 17 CITY CLERK: D'Amato? 18 ALDERMAN D'AMATO: Aye. 19 CITY CLERK: Bauman? 20 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Aye. 21 CITY CLERK: Bohl? 22 ALDERMAN BOHL: Aye. 23 CITY CLERK: McGee? 24 ALDERMAN MCGEE: Aye. 25 CITY CLERK: Wade? 00045 1 PRESIDENT HINES: Excused. 2 CITY CLERK: Donovan? 3 ALDERMAN DONOVAN: Aye. 4 CITY CLERK: Puente? 5 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Aye. 6 CITY CLERK: Murphy? 7 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Aye. 8 CITY CLERK: Dudzik? 9 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Aye. 10 CITY CLERK: Witkowiak? 11 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Aye. 12 CITY CLERK: Witkowski? 13 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: Aye. 14 CITY CLERK: Zielinski? 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Aye. 16 CITY CLERK: Mr. President? 17 PRESIDENT HINES: Aye. 18 CITY CLERK: 14 ayes, one excused. 19 PRESIDENT HINES: 14 ayes, one excused. 20 The committee report is adopted. Court Reporter 21 is now dismissed. Thank you for your overtime 22 duties. 23 * * * * * 24 25 00046 1 STATE OF WISCONSIN ) 2 ) 3 MILWAUKEE COUNTY ) 4 5 I, JEAN M. BARINA, of Milwaukee Reporters 6 Associated, Inc., 5124 West Blue Mound Road, 7 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53208, certify that the foregoing 8 proceedings was transcribed under my direction for the 9 license of Stargazers, LLC, that came before the 10 Common Council. 11 12 13 14 15 16 JEAN M. BARINA 17 Court Reporter 18 19 20 Dated this day of June, 2007. 21