LICENSES COMMITTEE CITY OF MILWAUKEE ------------------------------------------------------- In the Matter of: LARRY'S FIESTA Class B Tavern License Renewal Application and Public Entertainment Premises Renewal Application. LAWRENCE M. WIGEN 5219 West Hampton Avenue ------------------------------------------------------- The above and entitled cause, taken under and pursuant to all applicable rules before KIMBERLY C. WATTENBACH, Court Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Wisconsin, taken on March 26, 2013. P.O. Box 270265, Milwaukee Wisconsin, 53227 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 MR. ADAM STEPHENS 809 North Broadway, 3 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202, appeared on behalf of The City of Milwaukee. 4 MR. LAFAYETTE L. CRUMP, 5 4745 North 53rd Street, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 53218, 6 appeared on behalf of The Applicant. 7 MR. NICHOLAS DESIATO ASSISTANT CITY ATTORNEY, 8 appeared on behalf of The Milwaukee Police Department. 9 * * * * * 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 7th 3 District. Renewal application public entertainment 4 renewal application for Larry's Fiesta, 5219 West 5 Hampton Avenue. Lawrence Wigen. 6 ALDERMAN KOVAC: We're ahead again. 7 Sorry. 8 (Break taken.) 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. The License 10 Committee will now reconvene. 11 We're on our 11:15 agenda in the 7th 12 District. Lawrence Wigen, Class B Tavern License 13 Renewal Application and Public Entertainment 14 Premises Renewal Application for Larry's Fiesta at 15 5219 West Hampton Avenue. Lawrence Wigen. 16 Please come forward and have a seat in 17 the front here. Okay. Please have a seat, and 18 please raise your right hand to be sworn in. 19 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 20 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 21 Wisconsin that the testimony you are about to give 22 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 23 truth? 24 MR. WIGEN: I do. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Please state your 4 1 name and address for the record. 2 MR. WIGEN: Lawrence Wigen. Last name is 3 spelled W-I-G-E-N. My address is 4745 North 53rd 4 Street, Milwaukee, 53218. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. You, sir? 6 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Good morning, Alderman. 7 Lafayette Crump. Do you need me to swear, as well? 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Yeah. You should've 9 been sworn already. 10 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Sure. I'm here 11 representing Mr. Wigen. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Are you an attorney? 13 ATTORNEY CRUMP: I am, yes. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Do you 15 acknowledge receipt of today's meeting with the 16 possibility your application may be denied? 17 MR. WIGEN: Yes. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Wessel, any 19 holds? 20 MR. WESSEL: No, sir. No holds. 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Sergeant Raden? 22 SEARGANT RADEN: On 6/30 of 2012, 23 Milwaukee Police investigated theft complaint 24 involving a purse that was left on a bar stool. A 25 report was filed. 5 1 On 10/11, 2012, at 1:51 a.m., Milwaukee 2 Police were dispatched to 5219 West Hampton for a 3 fight complaint. Investigation revealed two 4 patrons were involved in a physical altercation, 5 with one subject hitting the other over the head 6 with a glass bottle. Upon police arrival, both 7 parties were no longer on scene. 8 On 11/4, 2012, at 1:44 a.m., Milwaukee 9 Police were dispatched at 5219 West Hampton for 10 trouble with subject complaint. Investigation 11 revealed a patron was angry for being ejected from 12 the bar and made threats to get his gun out of his 13 car. The bar's front door was then locked and the 14 patron attempted to get back into the bar by 15 knocking on the door. No gun was reported being 16 seen; however, patrons feared the subject may have 17 been armed. 18 On 12/3 of 2012, a search warrant was 19 obtained based on an ongoing narcotics 20 investigation conducted by agents from the 21 Department of Justice Drug Enforcement 22 Administration for the tavern, Larry's Fiesta, 23 located at 5219 West Hampton Avenue. 24 Investigation revealed that a Leonard 25 Givens (sic), who is part owner of the bar, stores 6 1 heroin hidden in the basement of the tavern. 2 Agents recovered 149.38 grams of suspected heroin 3 that was found in a purple Crown Royal bag hidden 4 above the heating ductwork in the basement of the 5 bar. The street value of the heroin was between 6 $30,000 on $45,000. 7 Givens was arrested and declined to speak 8 with officers regarding the found heroin. No 9 charges have yet been presented to the DA's Office 10 due to this being an ongoing investigation. 11 On Sunday, December 29, 2012, an agent 12 interviewed the licensee, Lawrence Wigen, who 13 informed him that since June of 2012, he had leased 14 the building and tavern to three individuals whom 15 he identified as Leonard Given, Antonio Hopgood, 16 and Nathan Given. 17 Wigen further stated that he was -- he 18 had nothing to do with the day-to-day operations of 19 the business and just receives monies for the rent 20 and building and tavern. Wigen also stated that 21 individuals were to obtain their own Class B Tavern 22 License prior to the current license expiring in 23 March of 2013. 24 Wigen stated that he was not going to 25 renew his license under any circumstances. A 7 1 citation for collusive agreement prohibited was 2 subsequently issued regarding this investigation. 3 There was a court date on 3/20 of 2013, and there 4 is a default judgment on that. 5 On 12/13, 2012, District 7 CLO mailed the 6 owner of Larry's Fiesta a drug letter. This letter 7 was sent based off a search warrant that was 8 conducted on December 3, 2012, for 149.38 grams of 9 heroin that was recovered in a purple Crown Royal 10 bag in the heating ductwork in the basement of the 11 bar. 12 The letter states that the owner and 13 operator of 5219 West Hampton, Larry Wigen, was to 14 take immediate action to abate the nuisance 15 activity at the property. The letter was also 16 stated to the contact officer and provide a phone 17 number upon receipt of this letter. 18 As of Thursday, February 21, 2013, the 19 officer has not spoken to Larry Wigen regarding the 20 drug letter, and no messages were found on a 21 voicemail of the number provided to Wigen. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Do you have 23 any questions on the police report? Questions, 24 comments? 25 MR. WIGEN: Comment -- 8 1 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Well, I can make the 2 comments or ask the questions. 3 MR. WIGEN: No. I don't have nothing. 4 My attorney will for me. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Do you have any 6 questions or comments? 7 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Sure. Thank you for the 8 opportunity. I want to -- probably easiest to take 9 those in reverse. The most egregious incident on 10 there is, of course, the drugs that were found on 11 the property. 12 The police investigation regarding that 13 seems to have focused entirely on that the 14 individual who was caught and who told the police 15 that he had the drugs onsite, the police went, they 16 found him there. 17 Mr. Wigen, who is the property -- the 18 sole property owner, had nothing to do with any of 19 that. There are two other individuals who are 20 involved in managing the bar for Mr. Wigen and 21 neither of them, to my understanding, have been a 22 part of the police investigation. 23 The drug letter, the nuisance letter that 24 was sent out to Mr. Wigen, indicating that he 25 should contact an officer -- I called the officer 9 1 on Mr. Wigen's behalf on January 2 and left a 2 message for her and indicated that Mr. Wigen was 3 not involved, but we would be happy to speak about 4 any of the matters, and I never received a call 5 back from the officer. 6 We all assumed both Mr. Wigen, as well as 7 Nathan Fraction and Antonio Hopgood, who are the 8 individuals who are managing the bar on Mr. Wigen's 9 behalf, assumed that the reason that the officer 10 never contacted us back was because the only person 11 involved with the drugs was the individual who had 12 been arrested. None of the other individuals, 13 again, had anything to do with it. 14 With respect to a couple of the other 15 incidents that had occurred with the bar over 2012, 16 not incidents, of course, that anyone wants to 17 happen at their establishments, but not something 18 we believe is entirely, you know, significantly 19 different than from what happened at some other 20 establishments. 21 Sometimes when you're operating in a 22 nightlife arena, in the Milwaukee area -- they have 23 security that walks through the parking lot that 24 walks through the neighborhood to make sure that 25 both the current patrons are safe and that people 10 1 are safe outside. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 3 Committee? Okay. How many people in the audience 4 are here to testify on this matter? Please raise 5 your right hand. One, two, three, four, five. 6 Okay. Keep your hands up. We're going -- we're 7 going to swear you in. 8 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 9 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 10 Wisconsin that the testimony you are about to give 11 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 12 truth? 13 THE AUDIENCE: I do. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. How many 15 people are here in opposition to this license? 16 Raise your hand. We got two people, three people 17 in opposition. How many people in support? Raise 18 your hand. Okay. About five. Okay. 19 Before we go any further, the alderman in 20 the area is here. We're going to have an 21 opportunity for you to provide comments later, but 22 if you want to make any remarks now, we'll afford 23 you that opportunity, Alderman. 24 ALDERMAN WADE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 25 I'm actually here to hear testimony. I'm just like 11 1 a quasi-Committee member. I am going to listen to 2 the testimony and the facts and see what goes on, 3 and, you know, I do have some information on it 4 that I can share if need-be, but the end would 5 probably be the proper place for me. 6 ATTORNEY CRUMP: And I apologize. There 7 is one other thing that I wanted to address was the 8 issue of the collusion and the default judgment. 9 The citation for collusion, it appears, was issued 10 following the interview that Mr. Wigen had with the 11 officer, that when things occurred with employee 12 having the drugs onsite. 13 Mr. Wigen was attempting to indicate that 14 there are other people who are managing the 15 property who are managing the bar on his behalf. 16 There was a date for that, for that citation. 17 I went to municipal court to address that 18 matter and was told that it had never been filed, 19 that there was nothing at all in the system 20 regarding that. I went on the date that it was 21 scheduled to be heard. 22 And so they said that the officers 23 reserved the right to file it later, but there was 24 nothing for us to address at the time. Mr. Wigen 25 just received notice of the default judgment on 12 1 Monday or Tuesday of this week and had not received 2 anything indicating that it had been re-filed with 3 the court system. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So what we're going 5 to do now, before we go into neighborhood 6 testimony, we have a representative from the City 7 Attorney's Office. Please identify yourself and 8 share your testimony with us. 9 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 10 Assistant to the City Attorney, appearing on behalf 11 of the City of Milwaukee and Milwaukee Police 12 Department, specifically with District Number 7. 13 We would like to present three witnesses 14 as direct testimony, and I believe there's at least 15 one member from the community here who would like 16 to speak. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any 18 particular order? 19 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Yes, Mr. Chair. The 20 City would first like to call Officer Bodo Gajavic. 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Yes. At the 22 standing microphone, please. 23 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Please state your 24 name. 25 OFFICER GAJAVIC: My name is Bodo 13 1 Gajavic. First name is spelled B-O-D-O. Last name 2 is spelled G-A-J-E-V-I-C. 3 ATTORNEY DESIATO: And your occupation? 4 OFFICER GAJAVIC: I'm a City of Milwaukee 5 Police Officer. 6 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Are you assigned to 7 any specific unit? 8 OFFICER GAJAVIC: I'm assigned to 9 Narcotics Investigations. 10 ATTORNEY DESIATO: How long have you been 11 with Narcotics Investigations? 12 OFFICER GAJAVIC: And I've been assigned 13 to Narcotic Investigations for a total of 17 years. 14 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Okay. What type of 15 training do you have for narcotics investigation? 16 OFFICER GAJAVIC: I have training 17 conducted by the Milwaukee Police Department in 18 service sections. I have training conducted by the 19 HIDTA; High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area Group. 20 I have training conducted by Milwaukee County 21 District Attorney's Office through various seminars 22 on narcotics trafficking. 23 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Are you familiar with 24 the licensee, Larry's Fiesta? 25 OFFICER GAJAVIC: I am. 14 1 ATTORNEY DESIATO: In the course of your 2 employment, have you dealt with Larry's Fiesta? 3 OFFICER GAJAVIC: I have. 4 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Please explain. 5 OFFICER GAJAVIC: Back in February of 6 2012, I initiated an investigation into several 7 individuals here in the City of Milwaukee who are 8 involved in the trafficking of large amounts of 9 heroin. One of those individuals was a Leonard 10 Givens. 11 Ultimately, on December 3, I executed a 12 search warrant at Larry's Fiesta Tavern located at 13 5219 West Hampton. As a result of that search 14 warrant, in the basement, above the heating duct, I 15 recovered two Crown Royal bags. One contained 16 approximately 150 grams of heroin, and another one 17 contained a loaded 9 millimeter semi-automatic 18 pistol. 19 ATTORNEY DESIATO: And was that the total 20 amount of heroin suspected, that 150 grams? 21 OFFICER GAJAVIC: No. From my 22 information, based upon the investigation that I 23 initiated back in February of 2012, that Leonard 24 Givens, routinely, on a monthly basis, drives down 25 to the Chicago area and procures approximately 350 15 1 grams of heroin on a monthly basis; and also 2 through several other individuals, redistributes it 3 to individuals in the City of Milwaukee. 4 Since that investigation initiated, all 5 three have been arrested; two by me, and one by 6 West Bend Police Department for reckless homicide 7 in a heroin overdose. 8 ATTORNEY DESIATO: And that 350 grams of 9 heroin, where was that being stored? 10 OFFICER GAJAVIC: From my information, it 11 tells me that was being stored at the tavern in the 12 basement, and the vacated apartment above the 13 tavern was being used as a location to cut and 14 divide and package the heroin for sale. 15 ATTORNEY DESIATO: What's the street 16 value of 350 grams? 17 OFFICER GAJAVIC: At a minimum, it would 18 be $70,000-plus. Could go up to $100,000 if it was 19 stepped on. 20 ATTORNEY DESIATO: What do you mean by 21 "stepped on"? 22 OFFICER GAJAVIC: Providing certain 23 ingredients to increase quantity. 24 ATTORNEY DESIATO: All right. So for the 25 350 grams, how many doses of heroin are we talking 16 1 about? 2 OFFICER GAJAVIC: The 350 grams would 3 generate approximately 7,000 individual heroin 4 doses. 5 ATTORNEY DESIATO: We're talking about 6 7,000 doses a month? 7 OFFICER GAJAVIC: Correct. It was on a 8 monthly basis. 9 ATTORNEY DESIATO: All right. As a 10 result of your investigation, did you speak with 11 the licensee, Mr. Wigen? 12 OFFICER GAJAVIC: I did. 13 ATTORNEY DESIATO: What did he say to 14 you? 15 OFFICER GAJAVIC: Mr. Wigen informed me 16 that he is the owner of the building, and he 17 currently holds the Class B Tavern License for that 18 establishment. He said that he had had no 19 involvement in that business since June of 2012; 20 that he leases the business out to three 21 individuals: a Leonard Givens, a Nathan Givens 22 (sic), and Antonio Hopgood; and that he just 23 collects the rent; and he had no participation in 24 any day-to-day activities of that establishment. 25 ATTORNEY DESIATO: When you say "leases 17 1 out," what do you mean? 2 OFFICER GAJAVIC: They pay him the 3 monthly rent to run the bar. 4 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Okay. As a result of 5 your investigation, did you speak with Mr. Leonard 6 Givens? 7 OFFICER GAJAVIC: I did. 8 ATTORNEY DESIATO: What did he say to 9 you? 10 OFFICER GAJAVIC: Following the search 11 warrant at the tavern, Mr. Givens was arrested at 12 his place of employment and was not too 13 cooperative. However, he did state that he is 1/3 14 owner of the establishment, and he identified 15 Nathan Givens and Antonio Hopgood as his partners. 16 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Who is the registered 17 owner of the property at 5219 West Hampton Avenue? 18 OFFICER GAJAVIC: Mr. Lawrence Wigen. 19 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Who is the licensee of 20 Larry's Fiesta? 21 OFFICER GAJAVIC: Mr. Lawrence Wigen. 22 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Are you aware of any 23 other owners of the property? 24 OFFICER GAJAVIC: No, I'm not. 25 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Are you aware of 18 1 anybody else with a Class B Tavern License? 2 OFFICER GAJAVIC: No, I'm not. 3 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Are you aware of any 4 license of those three individuals that you 5 mentioned, Mr. Leonard Givens, Nathan Givens, and 6 Antonio Hopgood? 7 OFFICER GAJAVIC: Mr. Leonard Givens has 8 a Class B Bartender's License. Antonio Hopgood has 9 a Manager's License, as well as a Class B 10 Bartender's License. And I believe Mr. Nathan 11 Givens possesses no license whatsoever. 12 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Just so we're clear, 13 you're not aware of any manager's licenses for 14 Leonard Givens or Nathan Givens? 15 OFFICER GAJAVIC: I do not. 16 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Did you issue any 17 citations for Larry's Fiesta? 18 OFFICER GAJAVIC: I did. 19 ATTORNEY DESIATO: What did you issue? 20 OFFICER GAJAVIC: I issued Mr. Wigen 21 citations for collusive agreement. 22 ATTORNEY DESIATO: And why did you do 23 that? 24 OFFICER GAJAVIC: Based on his statement 25 to me that he has no involvement in the tavern, in 19 1 his license purpose anymore, and that the other 2 three individuals basically run it. 3 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Okay. And what if -- 4 who, if anyone, did he indicate would be operating 5 the facility going forward? 6 OFFICER GAJAVIC: He stated that his 7 license is due to expire in March, that he in no 8 way wanted to renew his license, and that it would 9 be up to the three individuals to attempt to obtain 10 their own Class B Taverns License for that premise. 11 ATTORNEY DESIATO: And final question: 12 What, if any other names, does Larry's Fiesta go 13 by? 14 OFFICER GAJAVIC: Currently, it goes by 15 Bar MME, MME; Money Motion Entertainment, I believe 16 is what it stands for. 17 ATTORNEY DESIATO: All right. Thank you. 18 No more questions. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 20 Committee members? 21 Questions by Counsel? Do you have any 22 questions of this witness? 23 ATTORNEY CRUMP: No. No questions. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 25 Next witness. 20 1 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Thank you. The City 2 would next like to call Captain Regina Howard. 3 Captain Howard, please state your name. 4 CAPTAIN HOWARD: Regina Howard, 5 R-E-G-I-N-A, H-O-W-A-R-D. 6 ATTORNEY DESIATO: And your occupation? 7 CAPTAIN HOWARD: I am a Captain of the 8 Milwaukee Police Department. 9 ATTORNEY DESIATO: How long have you been 10 Captain? 11 CAPTAIN HOWARD: Since September of 2011. 12 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Are you assigned to a 13 particular district? 14 CAPTAIN HOWARD: District 7. 15 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Okay. What are some 16 of the key issues you deal with as the Captain in 17 the district, the District Captain? 18 CAPTAIN HOWARD: Some of the key issues 19 that we deal with -- or that I deal with as the 20 district manager is violent crimes, shootings, 21 robberies, aggravated assault-type issues. 22 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Do you have any 23 problems with drug use in your district? 24 CAPTAIN HOWARD: Absolutely. A lot of 25 the violent crime problems that I am currently 21 1 dealing with in District 7 are directly related to 2 drugs, specifically heroin. 3 ATTORNEY DESIATO: What are some of the 4 problems that you see with heroin in your district? 5 CAPTAIN HOWARD: Some of the calls that 6 we've received from citizens and businessowners 7 alike are individuals in the park shooting up 8 heroin, individuals using business parking lots to 9 shoot up heroin and taking over the bathrooms of 10 local businesses to shoot up heroin. 11 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 12 CAPTAIN HOWARD: Our officers have 13 responded to all of these activities. 14 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 16 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Not to -- I thought 17 the questions are supposed to be about -- 18 ATTORNEY DESIATO: My next question is -- 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: He's laying the 20 foundation. 21 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Exactly. I was just 22 trying to lay a quick foundation. My next question 23 is involving the tavern, Alderwoman. 24 To that end, in your role as Captain in 25 District 7, have you had to deal with Larry's 22 1 Fiesta? 2 CAPTAIN HOWARD: Yes. 3 ATTORNEY DESIATO: How so? 4 CAPTAIN HOWARD: Squads have responded to 5 that location for incidents that were called in by 6 citizens. 7 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Have you had any 8 problems with any businesses or other problems in 9 the area of Larry's Fiesta? 10 CAPTAIN HOWARD: Yes. 11 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Anything involving 12 heroin? 13 CAPTAIN HOWARD: Yes. We have a business 14 that's located approximately two to three blocks 15 east of Larry's Fiesta, and that particular 16 location has seen an increase in crime from 17 robberies and drug use in the parking lot and in 18 the bathrooms, specifically, heroin. 19 ATTORNEY DESIATO: All right. Final 20 question: What, if any, other names are you aware 21 that Larry's Fiesta goes by? 22 CAPTAIN HOWARD: Bar MME. 23 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Thank you. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions? 25 Are you finished, Counsel? 23 1 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Yes. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any questions 3 by Committee? 4 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 6 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: How often do -- for the 7 Captain, how often do you have calls for service at 8 this location, would you say? 9 CAPTAIN HOWARD: Our calls for service, 10 specifically to Larry's Fiesta, I believe, that all 11 the calls for service that we've had to that 12 location are listed on the report there. 13 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: And when you were 14 mentioning the different troubles you have in your 15 district, could you elaborate on burglaries that 16 are possibly tied to drug use? Have you seen -- 17 with the up-tick in heroin use, have you seen an 18 up-tick in burglaries, as well? 19 CAPTAIN HOWARD: Right now, District 7 is 20 actually experiencing a six-week up-tick in 21 burglaries, yes. And some of that is related to 22 drug use, heroin, specifically. 23 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any other 25 questions? 24 1 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 3 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Just a follow-up on that 4 line of questioning. I'm seeing from this year, 5 you know, five PA-33s: one is a purse theft; the 6 other is a fight; another is basically a fight, 7 threatened with a gun but no actual gun; and then 8 the two heroin-related items. 9 Can you elaborate on -- or maybe you can; 10 maybe you can't, how you knew to look for the 11 heroin, and you knew whether it was because of 12 ongoing calls to the bar or was that the federal 13 investigation? 14 CAPTAIN HOWARD: That investigation was a 15 federal investigation. 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Uh-huh. 17 CAPTAIN HOWARD: However, prior to that 18 federal investigation that was taking place, or 19 during the time that investigation was taking 20 place, District 7 officers, some of my undercover 21 officers, were routinely stopping individuals at a 22 business located a block or two down, maybe two 23 blocks down on the parking lot that were purchasing 24 and using heroin. 25 We were attempting to ascertain where the 25 1 heroin was coming from, and we certainly had calls 2 directly to the business inside where we had an 3 individual who was inside the bathroom locked in 4 for over an hour using heroin. 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So why isn't any of that 6 on the PA-33s? Because you didn't have a 7 connection -- because, you know what I mean? I'm 8 just wondering if you had -- because it was 9 undercover, you didn't want to mention, is that the 10 reason? You, basically, were doing your own 11 undercover investigation, and the Feds beat you to 12 it, or... 13 CAPTAIN HOWARD: No. We had a different 14 business that we were working with. 15 ALDERMAN KOVAC: A different business. 16 Okay. Which business, or you don't want to say? 17 CAPTAIN HOWARD: I would prefer not to 18 say. I don't think it's fair to the business. 19 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Got it. Okay. But you, 20 as a part of that investigation, you felt you had 21 some contact with this bar, is that what you're 22 saying? 23 CAPTAIN HOWARD: No. We found out later 24 on -- 25 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Okay. 26 1 CAPTAIN HOWARD: -- that Officer Gajavic 2 had this investigation with Larry's Fiesta. He's 3 not assigned to District 7. We found out that he 4 did the search warrant there and recovered large 5 quantities of heroin. 6 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mm-hmm. Okay. 7 CAPTAIN HOWARD: So that's directly in 8 line with heroin use in that particular area. 9 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Okay. So you've been -- 10 you've got a lot of problems with heroin in the 11 neighborhood. You were investigating where it was 12 coming from, but you didn't have specific incidents 13 related to the bar until that big bust, the heroin 14 bust? 15 CAPTAIN HOWARD: Correct. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Counsel, any 17 questions? 18 ATTORNEY DESIATO: No. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Next witness. 20 ATTORNEY DESIATO: All right. Thank you, 21 Mr. Chair. Our final witness we're going to call 22 is Officer Lisa Saffold. 23 Officer, please state your name. 24 OFFICER SAFFOLD: Lisa Saffold. 25 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Your occupation? 27 1 OFFICER SAFFOLD: Community liaison 2 officer. 3 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Are you assigned to a 4 particular district? 5 OFFICER SAFFOLD: District 7. 6 ATTORNEY DESIATO: In your role as 7 community liaison officer in District 7, do you 8 have any particular responsibilities? 9 OFFICER SAFFOLD: Yes, I do. 10 ATTORNEY DESIATO: What are they? 11 OFFICER SAFFOLD: Custodial records, 12 nuisance abatement, nuisance property, block 13 watches. 14 ATTORNEY DESIATO: In your role as 15 community liaison officer, have you dealt with 16 Larry's Fiesta? 17 OFFICER SAFFOLD: Yes. 18 ATTORNEY DESIATO: How so? 19 OFFICER SAFFOLD: I sent the drug letter 20 on December 13. 21 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Can you please explain 22 the drug letter? 23 OFFICER SAFFOLD: Basically, when we 24 recover drugs at any residential establishment or 25 any business in our district, and the letter states 28 1 that, it requires immediate action. You need to 2 contact our office, so that these -- any type of 3 drug issues need to be abated immediately. 4 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Anybody in particular 5 they should contact? 6 OFFICER SAFFOLD: They should contact me. 7 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Is your information on 8 the letter? 9 OFFICER SAFFOLD: Yes. 10 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Are you aware whether 11 Mr. Wigen took any action? 12 OFFICER SAFFOLD: No. 13 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Are you aware of any 14 contact from either Mr. Wigen or his attorney to 15 you? 16 OFFICER SAFFOLD: No. 17 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Are you aware of any 18 phone call on January 2 that was for you? 19 OFFICER SAFFOLD: No. 20 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Has anybody followed 21 up since January 2 to you? 22 OFFICER SAFFOLD: No. 23 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Are you aware of any 24 other names that Larry's Fiesta operates by? 25 OFFICER SAFFOLD: Yes. 29 1 ATTORNEY DESIATO: What is that? 2 OFFICER SAFFOLD: Bar MME. 3 ATTORNEY DESIATO: All right. Thank you. 4 No more questions. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Hold on, 6 Officer, there might be more questions. Any 7 questions by Committee? Any questions by Counsel? 8 ATTORNEY DESIATO: No. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 10 Okay. Now, what we're going to do at this portion 11 of the testimony is solicit testimony from all of 12 those individuals in support of this establishment. 13 Please grab seats in the first row to expedite your 14 testimony. Anybody that wants to step up at the 15 mic, please do so. Okay. Go ahead. Please state 16 your name and address for the record, and that 17 microphone is adjustable. 18 MR. FRACTION: Nathan Fraction, 1534 19 North 40th Street. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. How far do 21 you live from this establishment? 22 MR. FRACTION: 10, 15 minutes. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: 10 or 15 minutes. 24 Okay. What's your testimony? 25 MR. FRACTION: As far as the day-to-day 30 1 operations, I know we pretty much make sure 2 everything is running smooth. The things that is 3 being stated, we got a lot of trust in our 4 employees, security staff. 5 So everybody had full access to the 6 building. A lot of things that are being brought 7 up, we're not aware of it, you know. But we've 8 corrected things along the way. As far as the 9 bathroom things that's being said, our security 10 can't necessarily just monitor who goes in the 11 bathroom for 30, 40 minutes, you know. 12 We got to patrol. And as far, like, as 13 the calls, it's usually us outside on the street 14 waiving for an officer in the area to ask if they 15 can, you know, stay by at let-out time. So I feel 16 that we are very cooperative with the police 17 department. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Well, I'm going to 19 tell you: If the bathroom is a problem, you guys 20 got to dedicate appropriate resources -- 21 MR. FRACTION: Right. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: -- to deal with it. 23 Okay. 24 Any questions by Committee? 25 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chair. 31 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 2 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Just so I am clear, 3 you're an employee? 4 MR. FRACTION: Yes. 5 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: And you're an employee 6 as security? 7 MR. FRACTION: No. No. No. I help out. 8 Me and Antonio, we kind of co-manage Larry's 9 Fiesta. And I focus on the promotions, marketing, 10 and things like that. 11 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Okay. While you've 12 been -- and I assume you go there. While you've 13 been there, have you ever seen any drug use? 14 MR. FRACTION: Never. 15 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Are you a drug user, 16 yourself? 17 MR. FRACTION: No. 18 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: No drugs whatsoever. 19 Okay. Thank you. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions 21 by -- 22 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 24 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So you had no awareness 25 of the heroin in the basement? 32 1 MR. FRACTION: Not aware whatsoever. 2 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Do employees go into the 3 basement? 4 MR. FRACTION: Full access to the 5 building. 6 ALDERMAN KOVAC: What's in the basement? 7 MR. FRACTION: Ice. We got a cooler 8 where we keep beer, things like that, pitchers, all 9 of those things, we have access to that. 10 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And so, to the best of 11 your knowledge, how did the heroin get there, or 12 what do you know? 13 MR. FRACTION: Basically, like I said, 14 somebody could've did it when we was like, while we 15 operating and busy. How, I don't know. That's 16 something I can't honestly say. 17 ALDERMAN KOVAC: But you're testifying 18 you did not see any evidence of heroin dealing? 19 MR. FRACTION: Never. Never. Never. 20 For the record, I'm Nathan Fraction, not Nathan 21 Givens. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Did you provide us 23 with your address? 24 MR. FRACTION: Yes. 1534. Yep. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Hold on a 33 1 second. Alderman Wade, did you have some 2 questions? 3 ALDERMAN WADE: Yeah. I just want to be 4 clear on the bathroom incident. The bathroom 5 incident where the person was in the bathroom for 6 an extended duration of time, did it occur at 7 Larry's Fiesta, or did it occur at the business 8 down the street? I just want to be clear on that 9 part. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Officer. 11 ATTORNEY DESIATO: The reference would be 12 to the business down the street. I'm glad you 13 clarified. 14 ALDERMAN WADE: So the bathroom -- so 15 there wasn't anybody in the Larry's Fiesta bathroom 16 for 40 minutes using drugs, is that correct? 17 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Not that I'm aware of. 18 ALDERMAN WADE: All right. I was 19 confused, so... 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Hold on. 21 There may be some other questions. 22 MR. FRACTION: Okay. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So we're all 24 finished with the Committee? 25 Counsel? 34 1 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 2 You're Mr. Nathan Givens? 3 MR. FRACTION: Fraction. 4 ATTORNEY DESIATO: What's that? 5 MR. FRACTION: My name is Nathan 6 Fraction. 7 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Fraction. Okay. Can 8 you explain some of your responsibilities? 9 MR. FRACTION: Like I said, open up, just 10 oversee everything, pretty much. Like I said, I 11 deal with the promotions, the marketing, the 12 bookkeeping, everyone. I'm the point contact with 13 Larry on a daily basis. 14 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Okay. Do you deal 15 with the bartenders? 16 MR. FRACTION: Yes. Me and Antonio, we 17 both do bartending. 18 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Okay. Do you do any 19 bartending? 20 MR. FRACTION: Yes. I have a license. 21 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Do you have a 22 Manager's License? 23 MR. FRACTION: No, I don't. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any questions 25 by Counsel? 35 1 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Yes. Was Leonard Givens 2 ever an owner of the bar? 3 MR. FRACTION: Never. 4 ATTORNEY CRUMP: And did you have any 5 awareness whatsoever of what Leonard Givens may 6 have been doing drug-wise? 7 MR. FRACTION: No. Never. 8 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Okay. Have you been 9 arrested related to the heroin that Mr. Givens 10 admitted to? 11 MR. FRACTION: No. 12 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Do you -- do you 13 consider yourself currently under investigation 14 related to the drugs that Mr. Givens was arrested 15 for? 16 MR. FRACTION: No, I am not. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you for 18 your testimony. 19 Next speaker, please. 20 MR. HOPGOOD: Antonio Hopgood, 3957 39th 21 Street, Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53216. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. How far do 23 you live from this establishment? 24 MR. HOPGOOD: Five minutes. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What's your 36 1 testimony? 2 MR. HOPGOOD: Basically, I'm the manager 3 there. It's just really unfortunate this last 4 situation happened, you know, to a -- first to go 5 through this with the bar, but I feel like we do an 6 excellent job. 7 We are involved in our community. We get 8 -- we speak out to the block captain. We just had 9 a meeting a few weeks ago with the block captain 10 and neighbors, and they were in support of this 11 bar, you know. That's just basically it, you know. 12 I do want to clear up MME. MME is the 13 nightlife consultant. That's what me and Nate 14 started. So that's why it's the double name of 15 Larry's Fiesta. MME, MME is something that me and 16 Nathan started, and it's a nightlife consultant, 17 so... 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any questions 19 from the Committee? 20 Counsel? 21 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Yeah. 22 Do you co-manage this establishment with 23 Nathan? 24 MR. HOPGOOD: Correct. 25 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Okay. Are you aware 37 1 of whether Nathan has any managing license? 2 MR. HOPGOOD: He does not have a manager 3 license. 4 ATTORNEY DESIATO: And you said that MME 5 is just a name. Do you go by that as for any 6 advertising, or anything like that? 7 MR. HOPGOOD: Yeah. Correct. We started 8 in '05. We did a lot parties and that kind of 9 thing, and events. 10 ATTORNEY DESIATO: And those events occur 11 under the name of MME? 12 MR. HOPGOOD: Correct. 13 ATTORNEY DESIATO: And they occur at 5219 14 West Hampton? 15 MR. HOPGOOD: You see, because we're a 16 part -- we're co-managing the bar, so we use it as 17 a promotion for our business. 18 ATTORNEY DESIATO: So it's a separate 19 business? 20 MR. HOPGOOD: Yes, that's correct. 21 ATTORNEY DESIATO: All right. Thank you. 22 No more questions. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Counsel, any 24 questions? 25 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Yes. While Mr. Fraction 38 1 assists you with management duties, do you 2 understand that it's your responsibility as the 3 holder of the manager's license to do all 4 managerial duties? 5 MR. HOPGOOD: Correct. 6 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Do you consider yourself 7 as part of the investigation into Leonard Givens? 8 MR. HOPGOOD: No. 9 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Were you aware that 10 there were any drugs onsite? 11 MR. HOPGOOD: No. 12 ATTORNEY CRUMP: And you were never 13 arrested or charged related to the drugs that 14 Leonard Givens was hiding onsite? 15 MR. HOPGOOD: Never. 16 ATTORNEY CRUMP: I think that's all I 17 have. Thank you. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 19 Next speaker, name and address, please. 20 MR. ANDERSON: Kenneth Anderson, 3869 21 North 32nd, 53218. I'm a patron of the area. 22 Since I been going to that bar lately, you know, 23 it's a safe bar. You know, they doing neighborhood 24 things. As far as Thanksgiving time, they were 25 going, giving out bags of food and everything. 39 1 You know, it's a nice establishment. I 2 feel safe when I go there. You know, security and 3 everything is enforced. You know, it's like the 4 area has been down in crime. You know, I live in 5 the area, so I don't see that much violence in my 6 area, you know. 7 A lot of people in the area, we go to the 8 bar now. I walk to the bar, you know. I live 9 right around the corner. Like I said, it's a nice 10 establishment, you know. There's a lot of bars in 11 the area, but I choose to go there because I feel 12 safe when I'm there. 13 Everybody gets patted down when you go 14 in, and I can just relax and enjoy myself, so I 15 like that establishment. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 17 Committee? 18 Questions by Counsel? 19 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Are you aware of this 20 MME establishment? 21 MR. ANDERSON: No. I just know it as 22 Larry's. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Counsel, 24 anymore questions? 25 ATTORNEY DESIATO: No. 40 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you for 2 your testimony. 3 All right. Next speaker. Is that it? 4 Are we finished with the speakers? We've got one 5 more speaker. 6 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Mr. Chair, I believe 7 we've got someone in opposition from the community 8 here. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Who is in opposition 10 to testify? Did you have your hand raised when we 11 swore you in? 12 MR. PYLES: All the way up. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: All the way up. 14 Okay. Come forward. We normally take the 15 opposition first. State your name and address for 16 the record, please. 17 MR. PYLES: Robert Pyles. My address is 18 the business one, 4922 West Hampton, the 19 McDonald's. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What's your 21 testimony, sir? 22 MR. PYLES: Well, one of the things -- 23 you know, I'm pro-business, and this is really 24 awkward for me -- so I just want to put that for 25 the record. So it's not opposition of the owner of 41 1 the bar. But I got that nuisance letter, too. Not 2 that same one, but in June -- in June of 2012, at 3 my business for heroin, for drug use. 4 I'm the bathroom that they used to lock 5 up in. We had to put up security locks on the 6 doors. They had to be buzzed in. I had to put up 7 additional signs around my store, additional 8 cameras. We took -- the officers came in to 9 several managers meetings. 10 Brought all my managers in throughout the 11 city that needed to be trained on that because we 12 had had a couple of ODs in the bathroom. They 13 called the ambulance and also finding paraphernalia 14 in the different bathrooms. 15 You know, I was a cop for 15 years, and I 16 have 11 locations. And I'm going to be honest, 17 this was probably the worst because we really 18 still -- it was -- it was -- it was a nuisance. It 19 was because I was being held responsible for 20 something that I couldn't -- I feel I couldn't 21 control. 22 I mean, they was -- when he said they was 23 busting -- it was a daily basis. So I think 24 working closely with the police officers and 25 letting them know what we was doing. So whatever 42 1 happened -- I mean, that's probably -- I mean, I 2 got locations in places up in the neighborhood and 3 some things and activities, it was out of control. 4 And like I said, we've taken measures for 5 other things in the communities in other areas and 6 shut it down, or we handled it. But after several 7 meetings -- and meetings, I'm talking about -- I 8 was baffled that it kept happening, the boldness of 9 it. 10 So that's the only reason that I'm coming 11 down to Council. You know, I'm at stake. It's 12 cost me additional money, additional funds. We 13 have to have additional personnel, also. So to 14 speak against the business, you know, in this 15 amount of heroin, it's definitely something going 16 on in that neighborhood. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 18 Questions by Committee? 19 Counsel? 20 ATTORNEY DESIATO: One question. You 21 stated you have other businesses in other, what you 22 stated as rough neighborhoods. Do you have the 23 same degree of heroin issues in those other rough 24 neighborhoods? 25 MR. PYLES: Not near. Not near. Not at 43 1 all. Just this one. 2 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Just this one? 3 MR. PYLES: Yeah. Just. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Counsel? 5 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Yes. When you received 6 the drug letter, how did you contact the police? 7 MR. PYLES: Well, first of all, when I 8 received the drug letter, we responded, and then -- 9 ATTORNEY CRUMP: I'm sorry. What did you 10 do? 11 MR. PYLES: We called. 12 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Did you speak to someone 13 right away? 14 MR. PYLES: No, I didn't. Not right 15 away. 16 ATTORNEY CRUMP: So did you leave a 17 message? 18 MR. PYLES: I didn't make the call. My 19 office called, and then I reached out to the 20 district. 21 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Okay. But you knew that 22 there was something going on in your establishment? 23 MR. PYLES: Not to that magnitude. 24 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Okay. Since -- have 25 things improved? 44 1 MR. PYLES: It improved some. Yes, it 2 has. 3 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Okay. I have nothing 4 further. Thank you. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So that's it for 6 neighborhood testimony. Before we go into closing 7 arguments, Alderman Wade, do you want to weigh in 8 now? 9 ALDERMAN WADE: If it's my turn, 10 Mr. Chair. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Sure. 12 ALDERMAN WADE: Okay. Thank you. A lot 13 of this information, I had; some I didn't. I 14 didn't know about the heroin situation until I saw 15 it on -- in the file, and I talked to the police 16 department -- I mean the City Attorney's Office 17 about what they were going to testify. And they 18 explained to me that it was about the heroin 19 trafficking. 20 So I was made aware in further detail 21 probably middle of last week when I spoke to the 22 District Attorney's Office. I have met with the 23 bar owner. I have met with the people who are 24 managing the bar and talked with them about what 25 they were doing and what they wasn't doing, so on, 45 1 so forth. Heard from some different people in the 2 neighborhood about the bar. 3 Looking at the file, I would say we 4 really have Item Number 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 in front of 5 us. Probably the most detrimental one would be 6 10 -- not that the other ones are problematic -- 7 well, 10 -- 10 is probably the most detrimental 8 one. 9 Not that the other ones are not important 10 items; they are. But they don't rise to the level 11 of Number 10. What I have gathered from this -- of 12 course, it's up to your sound discretion -- what I 13 gathered from this is that they had one of their 14 employees who's not here to testify today. I'm 15 assuming he may be in police custody. Does anybody 16 know that, whether he's in custody or not? 17 ATTORNEY DESIATO: I don't have the 18 answer for that. I don't know, Alderman. 19 ALDERMAN WADE: Okay. Well, he's not 20 here to testify about what his role in it was, if 21 they were involved in it. It would be nice if he 22 was here, so we could ask him some of those 23 questions. But it appears that he was one of the 24 actors, and he was doing something. 25 And according to my conversation with the 46 1 businessowners and the people that were managing 2 the bar, they weren't aware of it. When they found 3 out what was going on, they immediately severed 4 ties with him, distanced themselves from him and 5 got him out of the establishment, and he no longer 6 has access, so on and so forth. 7 It was my understanding, when I met with 8 them in my office last week -- I met with them two 9 times. I met with them recently last week, and I 10 asked them if they had any concerns coming to this 11 body -- to -- about their licensing. And they told 12 me, no, they didn't. 13 At the time, I knew there was some issues 14 with the City Attorney's Office, and they assured 15 me that they don't have any problems coming before 16 this Committee and presenting their case. I said, 17 okay, fine. If there's anything that you guys 18 should be sharing with me, I would like to hear 19 about it now. They said they didn't have anything 20 they wanted to share with me. 21 As far as the police department and their 22 investigation, I learned the details of it today at 23 this Committee about what the details of what the 24 investigation was. I'm really, you know, I haven't 25 had any calls from anybody in the neighborhood 47 1 about this bar being a problem. 2 The bar has been in my district the whole 3 time, so for ten years. They had someone else who 4 originally owned it, and if I'm not mistaken, that 5 person's father built that bar. That person's 6 father built that bar, and that original bar was 7 built on a dirt road, if I'm not mistaken. 8 And then you bought it from that person? 9 MR. WIGEN: That's right. 10 ALDERMAN WADE: So that bar has been 11 there since Hampton was a dirt road. We've had 12 some issues there. You have the whole file, so you 13 see what some of the issues that we had to deal 14 with in the past. They've been disciplined for 15 those issues. 16 This, right here, it's a different 17 situation. It's a tough one. You guys, you know, 18 I have all the confidence in the world that you'll 19 come up with something that's fair and equitable. 20 From what I'm seeing, the problems that 21 they had was something that they didn't know about. 22 When they found out about it, they dealt with it. 23 The other issues with the bar, I'm not 24 receiving complaints with constituents. As a 25 matter of fact, there's no constituents in the area 48 1 that chose to come testify, although they were 2 notified; they didn't choose to come. 3 So that's the only thing that I wanted to 4 convey, that from an aldermanic standpoint, which 5 you guys understand, normally when we have problems 6 like this, we get calls from neighbors. We get 7 calls from different people. I have not had any 8 calls or negativity about Larry's Fiesta, other 9 than what we see in the file. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Okay. So 11 what we're going to do is, we're going to go to the 12 City Attorney's Office, and then we're going to go 13 to the Counsel. 14 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 15 I want to be clear. There's two issues before us, 16 and one of the issues is not that this is one of 17 those bars that every two weeks, or every weekend, 18 we're getting pounded with calls for services; as 19 the Captain had stated and testified and the 20 Alderman had observed. 21 It's not one of those taverns, but there 22 are two key issues here, and that's really what it 23 comes down to: Issue number one is the amount of 24 drugs that were being stored here on a monthly 25 basis; and issue number two is the collusive manner 49 1 in which it was being operated. 2 The first issue really speaks for itself, 3 and I know everybody here heard lots of testimony 4 that was consistent in the amount of heroin that 5 was found at this location. 6 At no point did anybody testify that 7 Mr. Wigen had anything to do with any of the heroin 8 that was there; however, he was still the Class B 9 Tavern Licensee at the time this happened. 10 And I think it's particularly telling 11 what Officer Gajavic had stated. We're talking 12 about 7,000 doses a month that are coming in. We 13 had somebody from the community testifying about 14 how that impacted their business in a very real 15 way. 16 And based on his testimony, it's not that 17 it was just a bad location, that's just what 18 happens in those locations, this particular 19 location. And the Captain also testified that 20 there seems to be a strong correlation. And since 21 the December investigation arrest, it appears 22 there's been a real decline in the amount of heroin 23 in the area. 24 So I think that substantiates just the 25 significant impact of heroin that's been in this 50 1 particular location. We did have a drug letter, 2 and as we had Mr. Pyles testify, he went out and 3 contacted the District. It's possible. We have 4 these meetings all of the time, and they work with 5 the district and help ameliorate some of their 6 issues here. 7 If we even had the phone call that 8 happened on January 2, we just had one phone call. 9 The letter asked for immediate action. We didn't 10 get that kind of immediate action here, which 11 raises questions of just how serious the licensee 12 treated this drug letter. 7,000 doses a month. I 13 think that alone is significant. 14 But if we look at the second issue, the 15 operating in a collusive manner -- and that's -- 16 Mr. Wigen essentially operated as a landlord here, 17 and he let two, perhaps three gentlemen, including 18 Mr. Leonard Givens, operate the bar as they see 19 fit. 20 We have testimony from Mr. Fraction 21 stating that he was the co-manager. That's 22 substantiated by Mr. Hopgood saying that, yeah, we 23 were co-managers. Where's the other manager 24 license? We have one license from Mr. Hopgood. 25 Perhaps more concerning is we have 51 1 testimony of this MME. That's another business 2 that was operating in violation of their license 3 within the business, and we have testimony 4 confirming that. 5 So who's running the place here? The 6 issue isn't so much that, okay, we've got to shut 7 this bar down, horrible bar, we're having all these 8 problems. The issue boils down to that under the 9 current licensee, there's just no control over the 10 operation that happens in this facility. 11 If Mr. Hopgood wants to be the Class B 12 Tavern and wants to act like the owner or be the 13 owner, he can apply for the license, and we can 14 keep the license going. The City is not opposing 15 having a tavern at this location. 16 What the City is opposing is 17 Mr. Lawrence Wigen being the Class B Licensee, 18 because as we've demonstrated time and time again, 19 he's made admissions to Officer Gajavic, "I don't 20 want to have anything to do with this bar. I let 21 them take care of it. I just collect the money." 22 This is in the PA-33. This is in the 23 admission that was also testified to by 24 Officer Gajavic, uncontested, that he just acts as 25 a landlord. He said, "I'm not going to reapply," 52 1 yet here he is applying for the license. 2 So that's why the City is opposing the 3 manner in which this tavern is operating. If 4 somebody else wants to come before the Committee, 5 and apply for the license, this is the venue for 6 you, as the Committee, to make that decision. 7 But in terms of Mr. Wigen being the Class 8 B Tavern Licensee, that's what we object to. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Alderwoman 10 Coggs? 11 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: This question is 12 probably more for the police. Generally, but -- 13 you know, hearing what the city attorney said, it 14 just made me think of this. Generally, our radar 15 as alderman goes up from constituents, from 16 neighbors who call and say, we've got an issue with 17 that place or there's loud noise or whatever. 18 Anybody watching these hearings knows that that's 19 generally how we become aware of the problems of 20 establishments. 21 In this case, the Alderman hasn't 22 received complaints from neighbors or whatever. 23 Another way that we often, you know, receive 24 information is through the police department. 25 It's kind of disturbing to hear that, you 53 1 know, I see these events of the heroin in 2 particular because that's huge, since it's such a 3 problem in that district, and whatever, whatever, 4 happened in December, and we're now in March. 5 And the Alderman hadn't been made aware 6 of it, or whatever. And I say that, too, because, 7 you know, for some of us, that might be so huge 8 that we don't want them operating three or four 9 more months. Then maybe we need to do revocation, 10 or maybe we need to do something right away. 11 But to not have known about it, you 12 couldn't have done anything about it. But to have 13 it come right before us before a hearing, I'm just 14 wondering, you know, the last time the city 15 attorney was before us and the District 7 was in 16 front of us, you know, and I asked them, and it was 17 explained to me, you know, how much more of a 18 proactive approach that was going to be in 19 attempting to deal with problem establishments. 20 In that approach, as you deal with that 21 and the stuff that comes before us as a part of 22 that communication with the alderperson, like as 23 things are occurring? 24 ATTORNEY DESIATO: I think the Captain 25 can speak to that. 54 1 CAPTAIN HOWARD: Alderwoman, that was a 2 federal investigation, so I was not at liberty to 3 call individuals and discuss a federal 4 investigation at the time. So that's not something 5 I was able to do. 6 This investigation was headed up by the 7 feds, and which is where Officer Gajavic came in. 8 As I stated before, Officer Gajavic does not work 9 at District 7. 10 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Right. 11 CAPTAIN HOWARD: So this was all a 12 federal investigation, and once anything came to 13 light, I was informed of the information that 14 Officer Gajavic and the feds -- I was informed of 15 the information that they had, and I was informed 16 of the drug recovery, and of the collusive 17 agreement. So I was not at liberty to disclose 18 that. 19 ATTORNEY DESIATO: And if I could add one 20 thing, the drug letter that's being referenced, I 21 have copies of it, but I'm sure you're all familiar 22 with receiving them. They were CC'd to my office, 23 the Office of City Attorney, Department of 24 Neighborhood Services, the police district, LIU, as 25 well as the alderperson's office. And that was 55 1 issued on December 13, and that did reference the 2 incident. 3 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: It referenced the 4 club? 5 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Correct. It 6 referenced it was the drug letter that was sent, 7 and it references the incident that we're talking 8 about. 9 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: It referenced Item 10? 10 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Yes. It references by 11 referencing the police report. That's just how 12 these are structured. I can -- 13 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Yeah. I would like to 14 see it. 15 ATTORNEY DESIATO: Sure. 16 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: And when is that 17 dated? 18 ATTORNEY DESIATO: It says, December 13, 19 2012. 20 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: So regardless of this 21 letter, I do think it's important -- I guess I'm 22 just suggesting that we're trying to be proactive 23 with as much as inclusion as possible because it 24 won't always be a federal case. 25 A lot of times that as much conclusion, 56 1 as much as we can all be on the same page from the 2 beginning, I think it's helpful. Thank you. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Alderman 4 Wade, do you have a question? 5 ALDERMAN WADE: Yeah. I do have a 6 question. Well, a comment and a question. My 7 question is something this major is going on in an 8 aldermanic district. This letter is a nice, 9 pretty, well-wrote letter, well-written letter, you 10 know, I did pretty good at English, and the periods 11 are in the right spot. 12 But we're talking about something, we're 13 at this Committee stating that this is a major 14 incident. And if it was a federal incident or not, 15 at some point, it became -- we can talk about it 16 because we are at the Committee talking about. 17 Well, at that point, I, myself would like 18 to get a phone call from the police department. I 19 had to call the City Attorney's Office and ask 20 them, what are you guys going to be talking about 21 at Committee at Larry's Fiesta? 22 That's totally unnecessary if we all are 23 supposed to be coming out of the same locker room. 24 Now, this time it was a federal investigation, but 25 if you remember when we was talking about Jean's 57 1 Supper Club, that wasn't a federal investigation. 2 That was all kinds of meetings going on with bar 3 meetings and bar owner, and the Alderman wasn't 4 involved in them meetings. 5 I just want it to be stated on record 6 that, for me, I want to know what's going on in my 7 aldermanic district, I want to know it from the 8 police department and the City Attorney's Office 9 and DNS and DPW and anybody else. I don't want to 10 have to come to Committee to find out things that's 11 going on in my aldermanic district. That's my 12 comment. 13 The other thing is the collusion that 14 they talked about. Now, another thing that the 15 Alderwoman stated is if something changes; a 16 bartender or a manager or rents a spot out or 17 something, that's nothing at that rises to the 18 level of the alderman, unless something -- we come 19 to a Committee. 20 So if somebody is managing BW3s today, 21 and they get a new manager, we don't get to find 22 out about that. So in this case, Larry's Fiesta 23 owned the place. He didn't have any problems with 24 it. He leased it out, and he was managing it. 25 And when he stated that he wasn't going 58 1 to apply for the license again, he was dead 2 serious. And he talked to the local alderman, and 3 I explained to him that I didn't know that these 4 gentlemen were running the bar. And when I found 5 out about it, and I spoke with the gentlemen, I 6 told them that I wasn't in favor of issuing them a 7 license to run the bar until they ran the bar under 8 the guidance of Larry. 9 And that's one of the reasons he 10 reapplied for the bar because I wasn't going to be 11 in favor of them getting the bar until I knew they 12 were running it, and I could go down there on 13 occasion, monitor it, see what's going on, look at 14 the clientele. 15 But, for that, I wasn't in favor of it, 16 and I'm thinking I may be wrong. That may be one 17 of the reasons that he agreed to apply for the 18 license again; so that opportunity could be given. 19 So the collusion part is serious. I take it 20 serious. I know my colleagues take it serious. 21 But when people changing managers and 22 doing all kind of things as businesses, we don't 23 always find out about it. If there had been an 24 incident at the place, if there had been an 25 incident, I probably still wouldn't know about 59 1 this. 2 Because I would have been trying to issue 3 him his license on a consent, and then he would 4 have been telling me he don't want the license, and 5 that's when I would have found out about it. So 6 this is -- it's some systems in place that we all 7 operate by. 8 And it would be my hope that the police 9 department would include myself in some of the 10 systems that they operate in when it pertains to 11 the safety and well-being of the citizens in my 12 aldermanic district as well as the economic 13 development and job opportunity for businesses in 14 my aldermanic district. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 18 ALDERMAN KOVAC: If I understand you 19 correctly, Alderman, it sounds like you're saying 20 that now you've heard this full testimony and the 21 City Attorney's reasoning, in retrospect, you'd 22 rather have people actually running the bar being 23 the ones applying for the license? 24 ALDERMAN WADE: No. I want the guy who 25 owns the bar to be more active in the bar and be 60 1 more onsite and hands on, because I want them to 2 receive the training that they need. 3 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Right. 4 ALDERMAN WADE: That I'm confident with 5 that they can run that bar because the bar is not a 6 lemonade stand. That's what I want to happen. So 7 if that doesn't happen, I'm not interested in them 8 out-of-the-blue, never operating a bar before, 9 running a bar in my aldermanic district. 10 I want them to have some experience and 11 some quasi-training that would come from somebody 12 who has ran the establishment for a long time; that 13 would be my wish. 14 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So would you not want 15 Mr. Wigen here -- you didn't want him to apply for 16 the license just to apply for the license. It 17 sounds like you want him to actually be more active 18 than he has been? 19 ALDERMAN WADE: Exactly. And I explained 20 that to him. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: I guess my question for 22 the applicant is: You got advice from the Alderman 23 to reapply even though that was not your intention. 24 Do you plan -- when did you stop being active in 25 the day-to-day operation of the bar, and when did 61 1 you plan on changing that? 2 MR. WIGEN: I relinquished my 3 responsibilities as being a member of the running 4 of the bar probably a year ago, thereabouts. And 5 after speaking with the Alderman, and getting 6 guidance from him, I agreed to reapply and renew my 7 license for the upcoming year while the gentlemen 8 who are managing the place get more experience, 9 based on recommendation from the Alderman. 10 I have reapplied, based on that guidance, 11 and it is my intent to be in the bar and observe 12 the running of the bar on a more frequent occasion. 13 I -- you know, I periodically, maybe once, twice a 14 month, previously was in the bar. It is my intent 15 to be in there now on several times a week. 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So that was in the past 17 year; you'd go in once or twice a month. What 18 about previous to this past year, were you more 19 involved then? 20 MR. WIGEN: I was running the place. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So you were the 22 day-to-day manager up until about a year ago? 23 MR. WIGEN: Maybe a little more than a 24 year, but it became strenuous to run the bar on a 25 day-to-day basis, you know. And due to some health 62 1 considerations, I backed away from it somewhat. 2 ATTORNEY CRUMP: If -- can I answer that, 3 Alderman? 4 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Sure. 5 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Thank you. I think, as 6 Mr. Fraction mentioned earlier, although Mr. Wigen 7 was only present in the bar a couple of times a 8 month, he has regular contact with Mr. Wigen (sic), 9 discussions on how the bar should be run, 10 instruction on how things should take place there. 11 So there was no intent to engage in collusion. 12 There was just simply trying to prepare 13 them for one day owning a bar and having their own 14 license. And they were thinking that that would 15 happen in the very near future. But as the 16 Alderman mentioned, he -- you know, he believed 17 that they should, and he'd like to see them have 18 more experience. 19 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So when you say, 20 "Mr. Wigen," who are you referring to? 21 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Mr. Wigen is right here. 22 The applicant. 23 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Because the way you 24 phrased that, I got confused. 25 ATTORNEY CRUMP: I apologize. 63 1 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So you're Larry Wigen? 2 MR. WIGEN: Yes, sir. 3 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And you own the 4 building? 5 MR. WIGEN: Yes, sir. 6 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And you ran the bar for 7 many years? 8 MR. WIGEN: Yes. About four years. 9 Since '08. 10 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And a year ago, you 11 turned it over to who? 12 MR. WIGEN: Mr. Hopgood became the -- 13 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Although, "turn it over" 14 would be a strong statement. 15 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Right. I should say you 16 brought in management. 17 MR. WIGEN: Brought in -- 18 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Right. Who were the 19 managers that you brought in? 20 MR. WIGEN: Mr. Hopgood. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Just Mr. Hopgood. 22 MR. WIGEN: He is the manager, and Nathan 23 is a bartender. He has a bartender's license. And 24 Mr. Hopgood has his manager's license. 25 And this issue that was raised about 64 1 co-managing, you know, sometimes it's a very thin 2 line between bartending and managing. 3 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. WIGEN: And I think that that's where 5 this co-manager term was used. You know, I'm the 6 bartender. I'm the manager. You a bartender, but 7 if you're not there, I may make a decision, you 8 know, on-the-spot. 9 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So what about Leonard 10 Givens, who is he? 11 MR. WIGEN: He was an employee they 12 hired, to my understanding. He never was a part of 13 management, ownership, or anything else. Even 14 though it was stated by him to the officer that he 15 was a third owner, but... 16 ATTORNEY CRUMP: And I think the record 17 would show -- so we, you know, obviously total 18 transparency here -- would also show that when 19 Mr. Wigen spoke with the officer, that he knew that 20 the three of them were involved in running things 21 on a day-to-day basis while he wasn't there. 22 He wasn't sure of the entire structure of 23 their group, the management company that they have, 24 but that's strictly a promotional entity. And 25 so -- 65 1 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So was Leonard Givens 2 involved in this management production company? 3 MR. WIGEN: He's just a guy that we hired 4 to help out at the bar. 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And I don't want to be 6 -- so I just want to be clear about that history 7 and the recent history, too. Today is March 26. 8 This license expired three days ago. 9 MR. WIGEN: Correct. 10 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And you had originally 11 told police, "I don't want to reapply." Did that 12 -- when you told police that, did that mean that 13 you were going to let somebody else reapply, or 14 that you just wanted the bar shut down? 15 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Well, your expectation 16 was that they would apply. 17 MR. WIGEN: Yes. 18 ALDERMAN KOVAC: You were always 19 expecting that somebody would apply. You just 20 didn't want to be the one. 21 MR. WIGEN: I -- you know, I no longer 22 wanted to be involved in the day-to-day operations 23 of the establishment such as that. And based on 24 that, they had approached me about, perhaps in the 25 future, purchasing the facility and operating it 66 1 then under their own license. 2 ALDERMAN KOVAC: "They" meaning what, is 3 that Mr. Hopgood and Nathan? 4 MR. WIGEN: Yes. 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Well, given your health 6 concerns, is that -- because it sounds like you 7 talked to the Alderman who then wanted you to be 8 day-to-day, and that's what you agreed to -- 9 ALDERMAN WADE: I didn't say 10 "day-to-day." I did say, more actively involved. 11 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Well -- 12 MR. WIGEN: And it is my intent -- 13 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mh-hmm. 14 MR. WIGEN: -- to be in the bar, observe 15 the operation, observe the books, and this kind of 16 thing, to provide them with guidance for my wishes, 17 you know, if I find things are not going as I had 18 hoped they would. 19 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So in your estimation 20 then, since you do have considerable experience at 21 the bar with this location, what went wrong? How 22 was Lenny Givens able to be dealing this much 23 heroin out of this place? 24 MR. WIGEN: To be very frank with you, 25 sir, while I was operating the bar, I had employees 67 1 that I had hired, you know, come in, interview for 2 bartenders, for security, or whatever, that after 3 hiring them, I gave them access to the building, 4 keys, combinations to security systems, and this 5 kind of thing. 6 That was my understanding that's what 7 Nathan did. He hired this individual to be a part 8 of his staff. At no time was he considered or 9 offered any portion of ownership. When the time -- 10 when this incident took place -- and let me state 11 one more thing: The officer that I spoke to on the 12 telephone, I have never seen this individual before 13 until today. I spoke to him on the telephone, and 14 he called and identified himself, and I said, 15 "who," and he started telling me about they had 16 found outrageous amounts of drugs in the building. 17 He asked me several questions about 18 ownership, management, and this kind of thing. And 19 I answered him, and then I asked him, I said, "Who 20 did you say you are?" And he told me, "You don't 21 need to know." 22 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman, we're in 23 a position to be taking closing arguments. I'm not 24 interested in hearing this again. 25 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Yeah. 68 1 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: That's where I'm 2 getting right now. 3 ALDERMAN KOVAC: I'm asking all the 4 questions -- I guess -- 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Hold on. Okay. 6 Alderman Dudzik, you're 110 percent right. We're 7 starting to ramble here. 8 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Look -- I -- there's a 9 chase I want to cut to here. So I wanted you to 10 talk more about -- anyway, I know it's a 11 complicated thing for you to answer, but I guess 12 the gist of what I want to get to, to be frank, is 13 what, you know, whether or not -- if you were aware 14 of this, then, obviously, I would say we should 15 just shut the bar down. 16 I still feel like a violation of this 17 magnitude -- my opinion, not the whole Committee's 18 yet -- certainly warrants a suspension of some 19 kind. 20 My question is: Given that you've 21 already expired, given what you now know, do you 22 still -- given what you now know, do you still want 23 to proceed being the guy on the license committing 24 to day-to-day, or would you rather just have them 25 apply and have us grill them, since they're the 69 1 ones that are going to be there every day? 2 MR. WIGEN: Based on guidance from the 3 Alderman, and advice from my counsel, I do desire 4 to have the license renewed in my name. 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Okay. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. This is -- 7 okay. Are you finished, Alderman? 8 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Yeah. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: My question is this: 10 Okay, we had an undercover officer, he was the 11 first one to testify, you know, it's part of a 12 federal investigation. You have an undercover 13 officer that said he has been investigating, you 14 know, serious drug activity at this location. Then 15 they find serious drugs at this location. So 16 either, A, you knew about it; and if you didn't 17 know about it, if you're saying you don't know 18 about it, then how can you or the people that you 19 allow manage this allow all this kind of drug -- 20 drug activity occur and not be aware of it taking 21 place? 22 Again, you know, you've got a federal 23 investigation going on at this location. You've 24 got an undercover officer that has extensive 25 investigation in narcotics investigation, 17 years 70 1 of experience, saying all this stuff is going on 2 over here. 3 So how do you -- if you don't know -- if 4 you're not knowledgeable, if you're not directly 5 involved with it, how do you not know about all 6 this stuff going on? The gentleman who testified 7 earlier, you know, who had a business right across 8 the street, he's saying there's -- you know, how 9 can all this be going on, and you not being aware 10 of it? 11 ATTORNEY CRUMP: May I respond to that? 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Sure. 13 ATTORNEY CRUMP: First, I think it's 14 important to realize that what the officer who 15 testified earlier was talking about was an 16 investigation that centered on that individual and 17 a number -- and other people that he may have been 18 associated with. 19 And, eventually, they found that he was 20 keeping things onsite at this location and that 21 there was also activity in the area, but not 22 specific to the bar. As soon as Mr. Wigen, as soon 23 as Mr. Fraction, as soon as Mr. Hopgood found out 24 that there was something going on at the 25 establishment, they immediately terminated that 71 1 employee. 2 Everyone cooperated with the police. And 3 as far as any of them know, there is nothing else 4 going on at that establishment. There was no one 5 else involved. 6 Mr. Pyles, who testified, is three blocks 7 away. I think it's important to realize, and to 8 attempt to tie what was happening at his business 9 with what was going on three blocks away, I think 10 is a very tenuous connection, and we should not 11 make that -- 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: When did they 13 terminate this individual from the bar? 14 ATTORNEY CRUMP: As soon as the officers 15 indicated that he had been arrested for -- 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: When was that? 17 ATTORNEY CRUMP: At the same time that 18 the drug letter was issued, so -- and I imagine I 19 was going to have the opportunity to make a final 20 closing argument, and I can do it now, if you'd 21 like. 22 But I just want to make it clear that 23 everyone took this very seriously when the drug 24 letter came out. They did, you know, on their own 25 looking into what was going on. You know, found -- 72 1 we sat down immediately with Mr. Hopgood and 2 Mr. Fraction to -- 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I want to give you 4 the final word. So we're going to wrap this up, 5 and -- but I am going to give you a chance to 6 respond to all that stuff and capsulate it. 7 And then we're going to go to you, and 8 then we're going to take it into Committee. 9 ATTORNEY CRUMP: I apologize. Hasn't he 10 done that already? 11 ATTORNEY DESIATO: There's been a lot of 12 comments. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: There's been a lot 14 of new information that's come up before that time. 15 Go ahead. 16 ATTORNEY DESIATO: I'd just like to make 17 a few additional comments. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Just try to make the 19 additional comments in relations to the new 20 information that has come forward. 21 ATTORNEY DESIATO: I would reiterate that 22 on this telephone call we do have admission, 23 certainly hearsay exception, in which Mr. Wigen did 24 state to the officer, which he testified to and 25 also documented that he stated that the three 73 1 people running it included Mr. Givens. So I'd like 2 to reiterate that, and I think that contradicts 3 what Mr. Wigen stated. 4 And my other and final point will be: 5 There seems to be some suggestion that there's a 6 switch that's just flipped. And as I stated 7 earlier, the issue is not this is a troubled bar 8 that cannot be -- that we cannot be recovered and 9 have a problem-free bar, or at least a 10 problem-mitigated bar. 11 The issue is that with the current 12 licensee, and what we've seen over the course of 13 the last year, it's just not a good fit. And if 14 other people want to go before you as a Committee, 15 then in your responsibility as a Committee, you can 16 make that decision. I think that's fine. 17 And I can't speak for whether there being 18 any opposition for it or not, but for the purpose 19 of this hearing, the opposition is having 20 Mr. Wigen, given his past history, continue -- like 21 fool me once, shame on me. 22 Well, if we allow him to continue to do 23 this, I think we're just asking for a similar type 24 of conduct. And Mr. Wigen, innocently enough, has 25 no awareness of what's going on and a case of this 74 1 magnitude is happening behind his back. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. You get 3 closing arguments. 4 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Yes. I guess I would 5 just underline what the City Attorney just 6 mentioned, which is that this is not a tavern that 7 is a problem tavern. There are not consistent 8 problems here. 9 There was an anomaly. There was an 10 employee who did something terrible, who's been 11 terminated and has nothing to do with the bar now. 12 It, in fact, is a very good fit. Mr. Wigen has 13 been running the bar for years. He was looking at 14 potentially selling it to someone else who would 15 come in and operate it. 16 But since that does not appear to be 17 viable, he's decided that the best use of his 18 property is to continue running it. And he has 19 property rights in that business. As it's been 20 noted, the business has been there since the '30s, 21 been there since Hampton was a dirt record. 22 He would like to continue operating it. 23 He would like to have a more permanent onsite 24 presence there to make sure that things are fine. 25 I just think it's very important to note 75 1 that none of the individuals who are here today, 2 who are involved with the bar now, had anything to 3 do with the drugs that were found. 4 There were not additional -- there was 5 not additional contact from the police after that 6 individual was removed from the property and 7 removed from any interaction from the business. 8 Relating to the issue of the collusive 9 manner and the phone conversation that Mr. Wigen 10 had out-of-the-blue, hearing that, we found all 11 these drugs on your property, it was a very 12 uncomfortable moment for Mr. Wigen, and he may not 13 have stated it as elegantly as he should have about 14 how the relationship worked between him and the 15 individuals who are managing onsite for him. 16 But there was not a collusive 17 arrangement. He understands. He's the licensee. 18 He's responsible for what goes on there, and he 19 will be responsible going forward. 20 I would, again, reiterate that the 21 community does not have a problem with this bar. 22 The individual who testified was from several 23 blocks away and acknowledged that he had his own 24 problems with drug use onsite, that this is a 25 problem in the area. 76 1 The police officer also testified there 2 are issues in the area that are not endemic to this 3 bar, and they will not be going forward -- 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 5 ATTORNEY CRUMP: And we just ask for your 6 support to continue operating this business. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 8 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chair. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 10 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I'm normally a big fan 11 of progressive business, but in this particular 12 case, I see no alternative than to immediately 13 revoke this license for nonrenewal. Anybody that 14 supports an establishment that passes through what 15 my simple math is a 85,000 doses of heroin into 16 their community, ought to have their head examined. 17 My personal opinion is that this 18 operator, Mr. Wigen, did enter into, by his own 19 admission, a collusive agreement. I don't think 20 he's taken any of it seriously. 21 I object -- I object to the notion that a 22 phone call was made, and nobody responded to that 23 phone call, so the applicant felt that that was no 24 big deal. 25 I appreciate where the Alderman is coming 77 1 from. I can tell you that I have, in fact, 2 received these very notices, and I realize 3 everybody operates their office a little bit 4 differently. 5 When I get one of these notices, I'm on 6 the phone, I am personally on the phone to the 7 district saying, what the hell is going on in my 8 neighborhood? So I appreciate the characterization 9 that this particular location was a well-run 10 establishment, although, the record doesn't clear 11 that out. 12 In the years that Mr. Wigen actually 13 operated it, there is a number of police incidents. 14 There is no way I will support anything less than a 15 revocation at this location. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Comments on 17 the motion? 18 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Wouldn't it be a 19 nonrenewal, wouldn't it technically be a 20 revocation, since it's expired? 21 ATTORNEY DESIATO: It would be a 22 nonrenewal, Alderwoman. 23 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Nonrenewal, excuse me. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Do have 25 anything further, Alderwoman? 78 1 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mm-mmm. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Any other comments 3 from the Committee? 4 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Alderman 6 Kovac. 7 ALDERMAN KOVAC: I'll just say that -- 8 you know, nonrenewal makes some sense to me in that 9 it would then force the actual people day-to-day to 10 apply. But I do want to be somewhat deferential to 11 the landowner's preference and the Alderman's 12 advice. 13 So in my opinion, I think I agree with 14 Alderman Dudzik, that -- well, I made my previous 15 comments. I think a significant suspension is in 16 order, but I will be voting against nonrenewal. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Let's subject 18 the motion -- 19 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Because I just -- but 20 hold on. But nonrenewal -- the reason -- what I 21 suggested to the owner before is I think the 22 suspension is coming anyway, so nonrenewal or 23 withdrawal would then allow the other guy to apply. 24 But that's not -- which would basically 25 being a de facto suggestion given it's been closed 79 1 down for three days. But I'm --- that -- my 2 opinion is suspension; not nonrenewal. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So we have a motion 4 by Alderman Dudzik to deny the renewal of the 5 license based upon the police report, testimony. 6 Anything else, Alderman? 7 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: No. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Okay. We're 9 going to subject the motion for nonrenewal to a 10 role call. 11 THE CLERK: Alderman Perez. 12 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Aye. 13 THE CLERK: Alderman Dudzik. 14 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Aye. 15 THE CLERK: Alderman Kovac. 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: No. 17 THE CLERK: Alderwoman Coggs. 18 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: No. 19 THE CLERK: Mr. Chair. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No. 21 Motion fails on a 3-to-2 vote. So, we'll 22 entertain a motion by Alderman Kovac for a very 23 significant suspension. 24 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Yeah. I think I do 25 agree with Alderman Dudzik's comments that 80 1 different people might have different definitions 2 about what they consider what seriously is. And I 3 agree that one phone call -- and that includes 4 information about the bar that may have not been 5 fully thought through. 6 Because of his reaction, I would think a 7 follow-up call to the police to say, hey, this is 8 what really was going on, would have been -- I 9 would expect that at a minimum from someone who's 10 lifelong investment has been jeopardized in this 11 way. 12 And, frankly, if it wasn't for the 13 Hampton dirt road and the Alderman's support -- I 14 don't mean to be glib about that -- if it wasn't 15 for the length of this business existing, I would 16 just say we got to shut this place down. That's 17 the only reason I'm comfortable not shutting the 18 place down. 19 If he know about it, like I say, shut 20 this place down, $85,000, if you did the math, 21 7,000 doses of heroin is a lot to not be noticing 22 coming out of your place. 23 So I'm going to move for a 60-day 24 suspension, based on what we have heard. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. We're going 81 1 to subject that to a role call. 2 THE CLERK: Alderman Perez. 3 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Aye. 4 THE CLERK: Alderman Dudzik. 5 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: No. 6 THE CLERK: Alderman Kovac. 7 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Aye. 8 THE CLERK: Alderwoman Coggs. 9 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Aye. 10 THE CLERK: Mr. Chair. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I'll say no, because 12 I think the suspension should have been longer. 13 But the motion carries on a 3-to-2 vote. 14 Okay. You got 60-day suspension. Attorney 15 Stephens. 16 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Thank you. 17 The Committee will be doing a report of 18 its findings and facts and conclusions of the law 19 recommending to the Common Council that your 20 license be renewed but with a suspension of 60 21 days. You will receive a copy of that report. You 22 will have an opportunity to file written 23 exceptions. 24 If you do, they must be received by the 25 City Clerk's Office by 4:45 p.m. on 82 1 April 4, 2013. If you submit written objections, 2 you will also have the opportunity to appear before 3 the Common Council when it considers this matter on 4 April 9, 2013, in the Common Council Chambers of 5 this building. 6 Please be advised that this report is a 7 recommendation to the Common Council. The Common 8 Council makes the final decision whether your 9 licenses will be renewed, renewed with a suspension 10 between 10 and 90 days, or not renewed. 11 Do you understand that, sir? 12 MR. WIGEN: Yes, sir. 13 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And then, Counsel, do 14 you accept service of the report? 15 ATTORNEY CRUMP: Yes. 16 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Thank you, Mr Chair. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: There being no 18 further business with this Committee, we stand to 19 adjourn. 20 (Whereupon, proceedings concluded.) 21 22 23 24 25 83 1 STATE OF WISCONSIN ) ) SS: 2 COUNTY OF MILWAUKEE ) 3 4 5 I, KIMBERLY C. WATTENBACH, a Court 6 Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of 7 Wisconsin, do hereby certify that the hearing of 8 THE LICENSES COMMITTEE was recorded by me on 9 March 26, 2013, and reduced to writing under my personal 10 direction. 11 I further certify that I am not a 12 relative or employee or attorney or counsel of any of 13 the parties, or a relative or employee of such attorney 14 or counsel, or financially interested directly or 15 indirectly in this action. 16 In witness whereof I have hereunder set 17 my hand and affixed my seal of office at Milwaukee, 18 Wisconsin, on April 5, 2013. 19 20 21 _________________________________ Notary Public 22 In and for the State of Wisconsin 23 24 My Commission Expires: December 16, 2013. 25