LICENSES COMMITTEE CITY OF MILWAUKEE * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * In the Matter of: Six Star Holdings, LLC, Class B Tavern and Public Entertainment License Application SCOTT KRAHN, "SILK" 730 North Old World Third Street * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The above-entitled cause, taken under and pursuant to all applicable rules, before KAREN RENEE, Court Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Wisconsin, on June 1, 2012. 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 MAISTELMAN & ASSOCIATES, by MR. MICHAEL MAISTELMAN, 3 MR. JEFFERY OLSON, MS. SARAH RANDALL, 4 5027 West North Avenue, Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53208 5 appeared on behalf of Six Star Holdings. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 * * * * * 2 I N D E X 3 Testimony By: Page 4 Mr. Maistelman.................................... 6 5 Mr. Vandenlangenberg.............................. 26 Ms. Crystal....................................... 31 6 Mr. Gable......................................... 31 Ms. Summers....................................... 46 7 Ms. Lewis......................................... 52 Ms. Miller........................................ 62 8 Ms. Bars.......................................... 66 Ms. McCoy......................................... 75 9 Mr. McCracken..................................... 77 Ms. Malvo......................................... 84 10 Ms. Rastola....................................... 90 Mr. Aronson....................................... 92 11 Mr. Chernof....................................... 94 Ms. Koster........................................ 99 12 Mr. Patin......................................... 100 Mr. Matheson...................................... 111 13 Mr. Worbleski..................................... 118 Mr. Hennessy...................................... 120 14 Ms. Gerd.......................................... 124 Ms. Callies....................................... 129 15 Ms. Nicols........................................ 133 Ms. Tomczyk....................................... 141 16 Mr. Ploetz........................................ 159 Mr. Silva......................................... 170 17 Mr. Weir.......................................... 172 Mr. Ferraro....................................... 183 18 Alderman Bauman................................... 202 Mr. Olson......................................... 214 19 20 Entered Into The Record: Page 21 City Of Juneau Letter From The Mayor............. 16 Letter From The Greater Milwaukee Committee, .... 94 22 Document From Attorney Tomczyk................... 151 23 24 25 4 1 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 2 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: This is the 3 resumption of the Licensing Committee. Again, 4 Alderman Tony Zielinski, chairman. To my left is 5 Alderman Nick Kovac; to my right is Alderman Jose 6 Perez. Alderwoman Milele Coggs will be joining us 7 shortly as will Alderman Joe Dudzik. 8 Okay. In the 4th District, Scott Krahn, 9 agent for Six Star Holdings, LLC, Class B Tavern 10 and Public Entertainment License application, 11 adult entertainment dancing by performers, disc 12 jockey, patron contests, patron dancing and patron 13 -- as agent for Silk, North 730 Old World Third 14 Street. 15 Please raise your right hand to be sworn 16 in. 17 MR. OLSON: Our first witness will be 18 John Ferraro. 19 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Excuse me? 20 MR. OLSON: Our first witness will be 21 John Ferraro. 22 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Well, wait, first 23 we have to get you sworn in here. Raise your 24 right hand to be sworn in. 25 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Have the whole room 5 1 sworn in. 2 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Everybody that's 3 going -- how many people are going to testify? 4 Raise your hands. Keep your hand up to be sworn. 5 Go ahead. 6 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 7 the pains and penalties of the State of Wisconsin 8 that the testimony you're about to give is the 9 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? 10 ALL WITNESSES: Yes. 11 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Counsel, 12 please state your appearance. 13 MR. MAISTELMAN: Good afternoon, 14 Chairman. Attorney Mike Maistelman on behalf of 15 the applicant. To my left is John Ferraro, to his 16 left is Sarah Randall, and to her left is Attorney 17 Jeff Olson. 18 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 19 MR. MAISTELMAN: And we acknowledge 20 receiving notice that the license may be denied. 21 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 22 Mr. Swetzle (phonetic), any holds? 23 LICENSE DIVISION: Yes, there is a hold 24 from the Health Department for inspection and a 25 hold from the Neighborhood Services for occupancy 6 1 permit. 2 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: The time right now 3 at the resumption of this meeting is at 12:40. 4 Officer Tabiadon. 5 OFFICER TABIADON: Nothing within five 6 years. 7 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Nothing within five 8 years, okay. 9 Please state your intentions. 10 MR. MAISTELMAN: Thank you, 11 Mr. Chairman. 12 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Do you want this 13 all submitted into the record? 14 MR. MAISTELMAN: In a moment, as I go 15 through my opening. 16 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay, Counsel, 17 proceed. 18 MR. MAISTELMAN: Thank you. 19 I think it's important to note that when 20 you asked Officer Tabiadon if there were any 21 incidents, she said none. The record before you 22 will show you that there are no problems with the 23 applicant. In fact, the applicant in his current 24 establishment in the city of Milwaukee or his 25 establishment in Juneau has had no problems 7 1 whatsoever. The one thing that I found was that 2 somebody's side bumper and tail lamp at his 3 Milwaukee club was damaged. If you -- and I'd 4 like to, at this point, introduce the PA33 5 regarding his current license in the city of 6 Milwaukee, which reveals the only incident in the 7 police report regarding that side bumper and tail 8 lamp damage to the car. 9 Now, if you also would look at the other 10 PA33s that I've submitted, one is for the current 11 license holder, Rusty's. And in there, you'll see 12 that there were over 72 citations issued for 13 underage drinking. 14 The other PA33 that I have submitted for 15 your review is for Martini Mike's, where there was 16 also extensive problems, including, unfortunately, 17 a homicide. Despite all of those issues, the 18 homicide there, this committee issued the license 19 for the current license holder. 20 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Excuse me, Mr. Chair. 21 You said the current licensee in the premises had 22 72 citations -- 23 MR. MAISTELMAN: Yes. 24 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: -- for underage 25 drinking? 8 1 MR. MAISTELMAN: Yes. Here you go. 2 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: And while we're on the 3 subject -- this is a matter of law, just clarify 4 the fact that we have an application for a 5 premises that's already licensed and how that's 6 appropriate that we're hearing that. Because 7 there is already a licensee in the premises being 8 applied for by this licensee. 9 MR. MAISTELMAN: I can respond to that. 10 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: It's just for the 11 record. 12 MR. MAISTELMAN: Sure. We have the 13 lease. We're subletting it to the current 14 applicant -- the current licensee. We have the 15 right, if we obtain a license, to come back into 16 the premises. That's it. 17 So like I said, the current licensee had 18 72 citations issued for underage drinking. The 19 current licensee -- as I will ask Mr. Lee to now 20 hand out -- if you look at the current licensee's 21 police track record, there's two police reports. 22 He owns another bar at 906 South Barclay, 23 sometimes it's called High Bar, sometimes it's 24 called Mick's Nightclub. I would ask that you 25 take a look at it. And I will just quickly review 9 1 that with you because when you issued the license 2 to the current licensee for Rusty's, you had in 3 your position all of these other police reports 4 including underage drinking, fights, assault, 5 assaults involving the bouncers, loitering, 6 assault and battery, traffic control issues, 7 public urination, violation of the plan of 8 operation by playing music that's not in their 9 application, smoking marijuana, and the police 10 couldn't not enter the premises once because it 11 was overcrowded, disorderly conduct, 12 resisting/obstructing an officer, attempted 13 assault of a police officer, guns on the premises. 14 You had all of that information, I presume, 15 because I know when the license division does 16 their background check on applicants, that that's 17 what you had in your possession before you 18 licensed the current license holder. 19 In the matter before you today, you have 20 nothing on the police report regarding the 21 applicant. The applicant has a stellar record in 22 the city of Milwaukee currently. And as I will 23 ask Mr. Lee to hand out -- the mayor of Juneau, 24 Wisconsin, when asked would it -- did his 25 establishment there cause litter, crime, he stated 10 1 -- Mr. Lee, could you hand those out, please -- he 2 stated, no; if it caused a problem with the 3 reduction of property values, he stated, as the 4 mayor in his official capacity, no. 5 So I come before you today to present 6 the facts. The facts are that my client has a 7 stellar track record everywhere else he's 8 operated; no problems whatsoever. The current and 9 the prior license holders to this establishment 10 have had a very spotty record, if you will, yet 11 none of the neighbors came down at those times to 12 object. 13 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney 14 Maistelman, I'll tell you right now, I'm not going 15 to -- this hearing may last two or three hours. 16 These other items have taken a significant amount 17 of time that you cannot condense to a few seconds 18 here. There's a myriad of variables that are 19 involved in any licensing decision. So we're not 20 going to go through the whole history of numerous 21 other licensing matters for purposes of your 22 argument. I would hope to just direct your 23 argument to this particular licensee instead of 24 bringing up all these other licenses that have 25 come up in the past. We don't have time to go 11 1 through the myriad of variables that have been 2 involved in those other licenses. 3 MR. MAISTELMAN: I'm done talking of 4 others. 5 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 6 MR. MAISTELMAN: I just would request 7 that you receive them into evidence. 8 You know, whether we get the license or 9 not, there still is going to be a license holder 10 bar at this establishment. And that's important 11 to know. 12 It's in my client's business plan that 13 they will attract an upscale clientele of 14 conventioneers and other folks that come into the 15 city of Milwaukee. We will be hiring 50 new 16 employees. We've already met with the captain for 17 this police district and the other police officers 18 and walked through the establishment with them as 19 part of the new legislation that Alderwoman Coggs 20 has started. And I don't want to speak on behalf 21 of the police, but it appeared, because I was at 22 the meeting, that all of their concerns were 23 adequately addressed. 24 So in closing of my opening statement, 25 our client has a proven track record of the other 12 1 establishments that he's run in the city of 2 Milwaukee and outside in Juneau and in Madison. 3 In fact, you know, the mayor of the City of Juneau 4 submitted a letter in support of him as an 5 official governmental document, if you will. 6 So we would respectfully request that 7 you take all of that into consideration and only 8 those issues that you should be taking into 9 consideration before you make your decision. And 10 that would be my opening statement. 11 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Any questions of 12 the counsel by committee members? 13 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 14 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 15 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: These other locations 16 in population, in demographics, how do they 17 compare to Milwaukee? Like, are those other 18 places urban or whatever? 19 MR. FERRARO: The City of Juneau is 20 about 2,000 people. We're right downtown. We're 21 -- it's kind of a similar area, not as far as 22 population, but as far as residential. 23 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: That's about as big 24 as my high school. 25 MR. FERRARO: Right, but on our block, 13 1 there is residential above of all of the building; 2 below all of the building, so it's a residential 3 area. 4 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Excuse me for 5 interrupting, but, I'm sorry, we didn't get your 6 full name and your address for the record. 7 MR. FERRARO: John Joseph Ferraro, North 8 52 West 21488 Taylor Woods Drive, Menomonee Falls, 9 53051. 10 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 11 MR. FERRARO: So it's -- in Juneau, yes, 12 it's a lot smaller. But we -- in a small 13 community, obviously, you'd stand out a little 14 more. We work with all of the neighbors, there's 15 no complaints, as the letter from the mayor. 16 Madison is probably -- I don't know the 17 population, 100-, 200,000 people, so a little 18 smaller, but the same thing, I mean, zero 19 problems. We've been there three years now, 20 and -- 21 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Where are you in 22 Madison? Are you downtown? 23 MR. FERRARO: We're in the Town of 24 Middleton, which was voted number one place in the 25 country, you know, similar to River Hills. So 14 1 it's a nice community. And since we've opened, 2 zero problems, three years. So, I mean, we always 3 work with neighbors in the community, we reach out 4 to them. We don't wait for problems to happen. 5 We reach out first to see what the concerns are 6 and handle them. If there is a problem, we handle 7 it. That's why we've been successful. We've been 8 in Juneau six years; Madison three; and Milwaukee 9 going on nine years without incident. 10 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 11 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Any other questions 12 by the committee? 13 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 14 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 15 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Before we go much 16 further into this, I want to -- because I believe 17 in a transparent and open government, I want to 18 publicly acknowledge that I've known Mr. Ferraro 19 and a number of other actors in this venture for 20 over ten years. I've been to a number of -- in 21 fact, Mr. Ferraro's, I think his first, 22 establishment was in my district. And although I 23 have a relationship with him outside of business, 24 my decisions today will be based solely on what we 25 hear today. Mr. Ferraro knows that I'm a tough 15 1 taskmaster. I think the first person that he 2 butted heads with was myself when he took a bar -- 3 by the way, he took a bar in my district that was 4 problematic and turned it around with a number of 5 creative ideas. 6 There was a couple incidents, in fact, I 7 was alluding to one of them earlier with some of 8 the applicants from North Avenue about an 9 individual that was over-served at a church 10 festival, came into Mr. Ferraro's bar totally 11 inebriated, did not get served, but when they took 12 him out of the bar and laid him on the front lawn 13 for the fire -- the paramedics to show up, he 14 turned out to be, to have alcohol poisoning. 15 Also, Mr. Ferraro's location was one of the 16 locations that I indicated that, during the church 17 festivals -- because the church festivals are 18 somewhat problematic from time to time, chose to 19 close down at great cost to his establishment. 20 I bring all of this forward because I 21 don't want anyone to assume that whatever happens 22 after this point is because of a relationship that 23 I have with him or anyone else. Because as 24 pointed out by the counsel for one of the 25 objectors, Milwaukee is a small town and many of 16 1 us know many of the people that sit in front of 2 us. In fact, I was concerned that I was overly 3 disrespectful earlier this morning to a long-time 4 family friend; that would be Mr. Frank Gimbel. 5 And I, you know, I appreciate the fact that my 6 friends understand the position I'm in, and from 7 time to time, I have to go nose to nose with them, 8 and I have never walked away with anything other 9 than respect from them or respect for them for 10 giving me that latitude. Thank you. 11 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney 12 Maistelman, do you wish all correspondence to be 13 sent directly to your office? 14 MR. MAISTELMAN: Sure. 15 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Can you provide 16 that address for the clerk? 17 MR. MAISTELMAN: Sure. 5027 West North 18 Avenue, City of Milwaukee, 53208. 19 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: We have a City of 20 Juneau letter from the mayor. Everyone has a 21 copy. Alderman Kovac would move to enter that 22 into the record. Hearing no objection, so 23 ordered. 24 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 25 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 17 1 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Question for the city 2 attorney -- well, I guess we do that -- because I 3 was going to say, without the mayor being here, 4 isn't this kind of hearsay? But I guess we accept 5 stuff. 6 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: That is correct, 7 Madam Alderwoman, but this is a new application, 8 and the rules of evidence, frankly, are even more 9 relaxed on a new application basis. And so we 10 accept this kind of character vouching via letter 11 all of the time. 12 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 13 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Great. We've got a 14 lot of people that are here to testify in this 15 matter, I understand, the BID representatives -- 16 the opposition goes first. The BID is going to 17 defer to the residents that have to get going. 18 So any resident that wants to testify in 19 opposition of this matter, please fill the seats 20 in the first row. If you're here to testify in 21 opposition, and you're a resident -- 22 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Mr. Chair. 23 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Bauman. 24 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: May I ask respectfully 25 that perhaps we get a very precise description of 18 1 what this licensee intends to do with this space 2 so we know exactly how many people, how many bars, 3 how big of a dance floor, how many performers, how 4 many nights a week, what hours during -- so the 5 people watching on TV can have no confusion in 6 their minds as to exactly what is being proposed 7 and what's not being proposed. 8 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Ferraro, would 9 you care to share the plan of operation with the 10 committee? 11 MR. FERRARO: It's on the application, 12 but -- 13 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: But people want to 14 -- who are watching on TV want to know. 15 MR. FERRARO: Okay. Sure. We're going 16 to open up a high-end, upscale gentlemen's club. 17 We're going to be open from 11:00 a.m. until bar 18 time, serving a full menu, lunch; more of a higher 19 end lunch, and then dinner, more of sandwiches and 20 appetizers. There'll be entertainment, topless 21 dancing. Pretty much the same, if you're familiar 22 with Silk at Highway 100, the same operation, but 23 a lot smaller, a lot more upscale. We're aiming 24 for the out-of-town business. The guys that comes 25 in from out of town that stays at the hotels 19 1 downtown, eats at the nice restaurants downtown, 2 don't want to spend a half-hour cab ride both ways 3 to come to our location. And there is a huge call 4 for that. I get calls every day from the 5 restaurants, "Do you have a shuttle to come pick 6 them up? They don't want to go that far." 7 So we're looking to provide 8 entertainment for downtown as a gentlemen's club, 9 a high-end gentlemen's club. Like I said, the 10 only difference between our Milwaukee location is 11 we're going for a way more upscale, higher ticket, 12 higher cover charge. The conventioneers, we're 13 shooting for. Where Highway 100, we're looking at 14 more to get the bachelor parties, and it's a much 15 bigger location. 16 So downtown, again, just mainly to cater 17 to the out-of-town -- obviously, anyone in town is 18 welcome, but our main goal is to get the 19 out-of-town conventioneers and just run a high-end 20 gentlemen's club. 21 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 22 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 23 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: For the high-end 24 aspect, I heard you say a higher cover charge. 25 What are you anticipating that cover charge being? 20 1 MR. FERRARO: $15 to $20. Right now, we 2 do $5 in the day and $10 at night at our current 3 location. $15 on special events, so probably $10 4 during they day, and $15 -- I'm sorry, $15 during 5 the day and $20 at night, and then special events, 6 which we probably won't have any other than an 7 anniversary party, maybe a little more. 8 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: How many patrons do 9 you -- does it say on your plan of operation how 10 many patrons you anticipate a day? 11 MR. FERRARO: I think on there, I mean, 12 the occupancy, we don't have it yet, because 13 obviously, you know, it's still under 14 construction, but we average probably, you know, 15 100, 120 during the week, and probably maybe a 16 little more on the weekend. But I think our, you 17 know, Monday-through-Thursday crowd would be a 18 little bit bigger, because that's the crowd we're 19 shooting for. One of our biggest things is a, you 20 know, if a bachelor party calls there, the way 21 we're going to get them up to Highway 100 is tell 22 them there is a $20 cover, but we will comp you in 23 our location on Highway 100. We want to keep the 24 buses, everything, up there because we have a huge 25 parking lot. And again, we want to cater to the 21 1 business guys. They don't want a bunch of young 2 kids running around, young adults running around; 3 rather have, you know, more of a sit-down 4 atmosphere there. So again, I don't think -- on 5 the application, I put 50 to 100 on the weekdays; 6 100 to 200 on Friday and Saturday. 7 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Do you -- I don't 8 have any idea how the strip bar business works, 9 so, but in my head, I'm just doing the math. Are 10 -- is the most of your money made actually off of 11 the drinks and not off the door? 12 MR. FERRARO: I would -- well, the door, 13 and then the stage lease fees. The girls pay a 14 fee to lease the stage for dances, the VIP area. 15 So it's probably -- I think what I put on here -- 16 off the top of my head, it would probably be 40 17 percent alcohol, 40 percent cover charge, 18 entertainment, and probably 20 percent food. And 19 don't quote me on that. I have it broken down in 20 here. We did some research, but it's around that. 21 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Okay. Thank you. 22 MR. FERRARO: You're welcome. 23 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 24 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 25 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Following up on that, 22 1 you just said now that you think Monday through 2 Thursday you'll be busier because of conventions 3 and so forth, but on your application, you've got 4 50 to 100 total customers per day from Sunday 5 through Thursday and 100 to 200 Friday and 6 Saturday. 7 MR. FERRARO: I just by -- I guess I 8 stated that wrong. I'm looking for our Monday to 9 Thursday to be our better days. I guess more 10 profitable days; I guess, not busier days. But by 11 default, Friday and Saturday you're going to have 12 more people because, obviously, all of the -- a 13 lot more people are out and about; they don't have 14 to work the next day. But our, I should say, our 15 focus is going to be Monday-through-Thursday 16 business, just kind of like the high-end 17 restaurants in town; the higher money ticket. So 18 I guess -- 19 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Your business model 20 says that you'd get 50 to 100 people, that's 21 enough to sustain all of your overhead? 22 MR. FERRARO: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Our 23 average ticket count on Highway 100 and Silver 24 Spring is $78 a head, and downtown, we're looking 25 to hopefully double that, so at 100, 150 a head, 23 1 we could -- 2 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And what's your -- it's 3 not expected at your other location, what do have 4 per day for the number of customer? You said $78 5 is the average amount? 6 MR. FERRARO: Average ticket amount, 7 correct. 8 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So how many people per 9 day? 10 MR. FERRARO: I could pull that for you. 11 ALDERMAN KOVAC: I mean, round numbers. 12 MR. FERRARO: I would say, Monday 13 through -- Monday through Thursday, probably 200; 14 Friday and Saturday, upwards of 5-, 600 -- maybe 15 not even, maybe 4-, 500. That's off the top of my 16 head. 17 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Sure. But how does 18 that location compare in terms of square footage? 19 MR. FERRARO: That's 25,000 square feet. 20 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And this one is? 21 MR. FERRARO: 6-, 7,000, I believe, 22 6,500. 23 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Is that how you got the 24 number? You just sort of divided this by the 25 square feet, or how -- I'm trying to figure out 24 1 how you -- because to be honest, I think for a 2 normal bar, this is -- that's a low number, but 3 you're saying, people don't spend $600 a pop at a 4 normal bar. 5 MR. FERRARO: At a normal bar, they 6 don't pay $20 to get in. You know, a lot of guys 7 will go bar -- to four to five bars with a bigger 8 crew, if they're going to pay $20. It's going to 9 be a guy that goes to, you know, Carnevor, nice 10 restaurant; a group of four comes in. It's not 11 going to be just guys wandering by walking in 12 going bar hopping. We're more of a destination. 13 People kind of plan their night out. I think, you 14 know, it's not, like I said, you're just walking 15 by, "Hey, let's stop there." 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And what's your -- you 17 don't know the capacity yet? 18 MR. FERRARO: The current capacity in 19 the building is 200, and -- it's on the 20 application. It's in the 200s. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Well, that's kind of 22 why those numbers jumped out at me, because you 23 have a capacity at any one time of 200, and you're 24 expecting as low as 50 for an entire day. So on a 25 given hour, I mean, you have two, three people in 25 1 there, you know, if you average that out. 2 MR. FERRARO: I mean, during our lunch 3 hour in Milwaukee sometimes, I mean, there's 4 periods where there's two guys sitting at the bar. 5 It's a long day. It's 11:00 a.m. to 2:00. But 6 it's -- financially, it works. I'd love to have, 7 you know, 200 people a day, but it's the fact of 8 the matter, it's the economy we're in. But we -- 9 we'll definitely be able to sustain the business. 10 If we can't, it's -- we're putting in a $2 million 11 investment. So we've done a lot of research on 12 it. Hopefully, we're right. 13 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And on the sales 14 percentage, you mentioned now 40/40/20 breakdown. 15 Here is what you put on the application: 30 16 percent alcohol sales, 10 percent food sales, 30 17 percent entertainment sales and then 30 percent 18 other. What's the distinction of "other"? 19 MR. FERRARO: Entertainment would be 20 like the house fees, what the girls pay. They 21 have a rental fee for the stage; for the dances; 22 the champagne suites. That would be entertainment 23 fees. The other is the admission. 24 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So that's the cover 25 charge? 26 1 MR. FERRARO: Correct. 2 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Thank you. 3 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Any other questions 4 by Committee? Okay. 5 Let's begin with the first person here. 6 Please stand up to the microphone. And please 7 state your name and address for the record. And 8 that microphone is very easily adjusted. 9 MR. VANDENLANGENBERG: I'm Chad 10 Vandenlangenberg. This is my girlfriend, 11 Brittany. We live at 720 North Old World Third 12 Street, right next to the potential strip club. 13 And basically, I'm just voicing my 14 concern over the strip club. I know there's a 15 huge difference between having a bar there and 16 having a strip club there. I don't see any 17 advantages for the strip club being there. I 18 mean, there's going to be increased violence. I 19 know you guys say you guys have a clean record; I 20 just don't see it happening. 21 And that location where you guys are on 22 Highway 100 is completely different than a 23 downtown location. I mean, the parking is just 24 going to be a concern for people who want to come 25 to our building. I just -- there's going to be an 27 1 increased amount of crime. I think there's enough 2 people down there already that I'm just scared of. 3 I mean, at night -- I'm an auditor, I come home 4 sometimes 9:00, 10:00 at night. My girlfriend 5 works late hours at night. I don't want her 6 coming past a strip club where there's drunk 7 people getting out of control. I mean, there's 8 safety concerns for everything. So I mean, I just 9 -- I completely oppose it, so. 10 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 11 Committee? 12 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 13 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 14 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I'm sorry, how long 15 have you lived downtown? 16 MR. VANDENLANGENBERG: About a year. 17 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Have you ever opposed 18 any of the other bars that are in this area? 19 MR. VANDENLANGENBERG: I have not. 20 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Do you know that 21 there's no smoking in any of the bars in the city 22 of Milwaukee? 23 MR. VANDENLANGENBERG: I do. 24 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: So walking past drunk 25 people that are smoking is something that you do 28 1 probably more often than you think about, right? 2 MR. VANDENLANGENBERG: Sure. 3 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. 4 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Any other 5 questions? 6 Attorney Maistelman, do you have any 7 questions? 8 MR. MAISTELMAN: Attorney Olson will 9 be -- 10 MR. OLSON: I'll be examining the 11 witnesses. 12 You didn't come down to talk about the 13 Martini Mike's license -- 14 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Please speak into 15 the microphone, please. 16 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Sir, the mics aren't 17 nailed down. You can drag it all of the way to 18 the edge of the table there. 19 MR. OLSON: Thanks. 20 You didn't come down to speak about the 21 Martini Mike's license even after there was a 22 homicide? 23 MR. VANDENLANGENBERG: That is correct. 24 I did not live there. 25 MR. OLSON: And you've lived there for 29 1 Rusty's? 2 MR. VANDENLANGENBERG: That's correct. 3 MR. OLSON: Have you ever considered 4 speaking out about Rusty's even after they had 72 5 citations for underage drinking issued in a single 6 night? 7 MR. VANDENLANGENBERG: That's completely 8 different than crime and anything else. 9 MR. OLSON: Is it the nature of the 10 entertainment that you think is the objectionable 11 element? 12 MR. VANDENLANGENBERG: That and the 13 crowd. It's going to be a completely different 14 crowd than what's at Rusty's. 15 MR. OLSON: How do think it's going to 16 be different? 17 MR. VANDENLANGENBERG: I've been in a 18 strip club before; it's a completely different 19 crowd than what a bar like Rusty's is. 20 MR. OLSON: Have you ever been in a club 21 that charged $20 cover charge at the door and 22 catered to out-of-town businessmen in suits? 23 MR. VANDENLANGENBERG: I have not. 24 MR. OLSON: Do you picture a crowd like 25 that being rowdy and drunk? 30 1 MR. VANDENLANGENBERG: Yes. 2 MR. OLSON: The strip clubs you've been 3 to cater to bachelor parties, do they not? 4 MR. VANDENLANGENBERG: No. 5 MR. OLSON: They cater to people that 6 became extremely intoxicated? 7 MR. VANDENLANGENBERG: Yes, sometimes, 8 yes. 9 MR. OLSON: Were there fights? 10 MR. VANDENLANGENBERG: No, not that I 11 have seen. 12 MR. OLSON: What is it about nude 13 dancing that you think generates the problems 14 you're talking about? 15 MR. VANDENLANGENBERG: There's going to 16 be crime there. There's going to be a crowd that 17 I just don't want to live by, and I don't think 18 it's going to be safe. 19 MR. OLSON: Because nude dancing sends 20 the wrong message to the community? 21 MR. VANDENLANGENBERG: That's correct. 22 MR. OLSON: Thank you. That's all. 23 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 24 Ma'am, if you want to just get back up 25 here and state your name so you can be recorded as 31 1 well? What's your name? 2 MS. CRYSTAL: My name is Brittany 3 Crystal. I live at 720 North Old Third Street. 4 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Basically, you're 5 just corroborating -- 6 MS. CRYSTAL: Yes. 7 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: -- with what your 8 boyfriend said? 9 MS. CRYSTAL: Exactly. 10 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 11 Okay. Next. 12 MR. GABLE: Hi, my name is Max Gable. I 13 also live at 720. And I certainly don't want to 14 live next to a strip club. But I actually want to 15 bring up a very quick different point. I work 16 across the street at Bon-Ton Corporate, which it's 17 a large corporate retailer. It's our 18 headquarters, I'm an assistant planner. And we 19 also occupy -- we're right above the Boston Store, 20 we also occupy a floor in the federal building. 21 And I can tell you, it will be very embarrassing 22 to us to bring in out-of-town clients, vendors, 23 and have them walk by a strip club in the middle 24 of the day. I mean, at night on a weekend, I 25 could see this. You know, I feel like you guys 32 1 think about it in terms of Saturday night people 2 are going to want to go there; it's going to be 3 exciting, but it's embarrassing during the day, 4 during the workweek. There's no guarantee that 5 you can say that it's men in suits coming from out 6 of town. You can't dictate what kind of clients 7 are going to come. 8 Also, I've only lived in the Grand 9 Wisconsin for four months, so I did not -- I 10 wouldn't have had a chance -- I just moved to 11 Milwaukee, so I would not have been able to -- I 12 didn't even know about Martini Mike's when that 13 happened, but I feel like you guys are using it as 14 a defense that this guy didn't come to speak out 15 against it. I think the fact that these people 16 didn't come even when there was a homicide but yet 17 they come when there is a strip club, that should 18 be a huge red flag. I mean, they didn't come to 19 fight Rusty's even after such a serious thing 20 happened, but yet they're so opposed to a strip 21 club. That should really speak to why we don't 22 want a strip club or the kind of negative 23 connotations that come along with that. 24 I don't -- I'm not anti-strip club; I'm 25 not really for it either. I don't have an 33 1 opinion, but I don't think they belong in a highly 2 dense area especially one like historic downtown. 3 I think that if this comes, several businesses, 4 including possibly my own, will leave the Grand 5 Wisconsin Mall, and that may fail someday. I just 6 don't think it's worth it. 7 Even though this probably would make a 8 lot of money, there are so many bars within a mile 9 radius that I'm sure plenty of patrons would head 10 over. And it would make tax revenue, but I think 11 the losses would be far more significant. 12 And I don't know anyone that's ever gone 13 to the strip club to eat dinner or lunch. Just 14 saying. That's all I have to say. 15 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Questions by 16 Committee? 17 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 18 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 19 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Sir, have you ever 20 been to a bar that has a dress code? 21 MR. GABLE: Yes, I have, actually, in 22 Chicago. 23 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: So your statement that 24 they couldn't dictate what type of person comes 25 into their club isn't totally true, because at a 34 1 dressed club, he could say, "You have to have a 2 suit and tie on." In fact, I've been to 3 restaurants that I couldn't get at because I 4 didn't have a tie on and they gave me one. 5 MR. GABLE: Is that going to be a rule? 6 Is there going to be a rule that they have to have 7 suits? 8 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I'm just saying that 9 your statement that he can't dictate isn't a 10 wholly accurate statement, because bars can and 11 restaurants do. 12 That's all. 13 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 14 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 15 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: For the applicant, is 16 a dress code a part of your plan of operation? 17 MR. FERRARO: Yes, it is. 18 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: So what is the 19 dress code, for the listeners? 20 MR. FERRARO: Off the top of my head 21 it's, we allow no oversized clothing, no baggy 22 clothing, no oversized clothing, no hooded 23 sweaters, no jerseys, no jumpsuits, no chains at 24 all hanging outside of your shirt, no hats, need 25 dress shoes. I'm sure I'm missing a few things, 35 1 but we have probably like 15 items on the dress 2 code where you have to -- you have to dress 3 appropriately to be in the place. 4 ALDERMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 5 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 6 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: So there's no 7 requirement for a suit or a blazer or anything 8 like that? 9 MR. FERRARO: At our current location, 10 there isn't. And there probably won't be a 11 suit -- probably not downtown. 12 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: So it's just like a 13 lot of clubs have -- 14 MR. FERRARO: Yeah, but -- 15 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: -- don't wear jeans, 16 don't wear baggy, don't wear -- a lot of clubs -- 17 MR. FERRARO: A lot of clubs don't 18 enforce them the way we do. I mean, our dress 19 code is very strict. And, I mean, it's kind of 20 like in Vegas, there's no one that has it where 21 you have to wear a suit except for fine dining 22 restaurants, so you'd lose a lot of -- even 23 out-of-town clients, even the business guys, 24 people that go to convections, they might come out 25 of their suit and put some relaxed clothes on, so. 36 1 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: So the witness's 2 suggestion that it's not going to always be guys 3 in suits is somewhat accurate then? 4 MR. FERRARO: I would assume it's not 5 going to be all guys in suits, correct. 6 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 7 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 8 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 9 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Just to follow up on 10 that, I mean, I don't know if the attorney is 11 planning on asking the same question of every 12 witness, but you can ask whatever question you 13 want, but asking if you've ever been to a strip 14 club where everyone is in suits probably is not 15 relevant to a strip club where that won't be the 16 case, as your own client's testimony just 17 indicated that. 18 Question for the witness. 19 MR. GABLE: Sure. 20 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So you indicate that 21 you work across the street and you feel that this 22 establishment, one of the negative effects on that 23 business -- I think I see where you're going, but 24 I'd like to establish that foundation more, so can 25 you go into as much detail as you can about how 37 1 you think it will affect that business where 2 you're employed? 3 MR. GABLE: Well, this is a very large 4 corporation, so I can't claim to know too many 5 details about everything, especially since I'm a 6 relatively new employee, but I know that our 7 renewal application is coming up, and we have 8 every intention to renew it; everyone is very 9 happy with the building, with the neighborhood, 10 but I don't know that that would be the same if 11 literally across the street there was a strip 12 club. 13 Once again, I don't have any -- I don't 14 care about strip clubs either way, but I could see 15 it being embarrassing to bring in people. So I 16 wouldn't be surprised that if this deal goes 17 through that we don't renew our application and 18 move to the suburbs, like Kohl's is, I think, in 19 Menomonee Falls. Kohl's is a comparable company 20 except they are about four times larger, so. And 21 if we leave, also, I'm sure we'd vacate our floor 22 in the federal building, so. 23 It's just -- there's a lot of risks. I 24 see, from an objective point, I see a lot of risks 25 from the strip club coming in, and one of those 38 1 is, I don't think our business would want to stay 2 there when there are plenty of options outside of 3 Milwaukee. 4 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Thank you. 5 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney Olson. 6 MR. OLSON: Do you have an opinion as to 7 how your out-of-town visitors would even know that 8 this place is a gentlemen's club in order to be 9 embarrassed by it? 10 MR. GABLE: I mean, any gentlemen's club 11 I've ever seen had lights and signs. I would have 12 to imagine you'll advertise it somehow. I mean, 13 if there's going to be unmarked outside and no 14 windows, then I would have to say I have no 15 objections, but I can't see that being the case. 16 MR. OLSON: That's the case. 17 MR. GABLE: There's no sign, nothing? 18 MR. FERRARO: There's one sign that says 19 Silk. There's no door -- there's no windows, no 20 other signs, no lighting, no neon. All it says is 21 Silk. So if you know the word Silk, you know what 22 it is. 23 MR. GABLE: I'd say for a strip club, 24 that sounds more respectful than I thought. 25 The other thing is, there's not much 39 1 parking in the area, and word of mouth. 2 MR. OLSON: Do you know what the parking 3 plan is for this business? They're going to have 4 all valet parking, so if somebody would drive up, 5 immediately their car is taken to a parking ramp 6 by a professional driver. And there's no traffic 7 congestion, there's no parking problems. Does 8 that address one of your concerns? 9 MR. GABLE: Somewhat, yes. 10 MR. FERRARO: We have the same company 11 that does Milwaukee Street. We have No Problem 12 Valet, same people that handle Milwaukee Street 13 and have, you know, seven restaurants and three 14 nightclubs. Thousands of people on a Friday 15 night, and they're able to control all of the 16 traffic. Which we'll be using the same -- in 17 front of the building is a loading zone. So 18 unless you saw an article in the paper -- this is 19 a destination place, you're not going to walk by 20 and know what it is. It's not going to be an 21 eyesore. I know you're thinking of some of these 22 clubs with neon signs, and they look crazy, but 23 ours is very discreet, and we know how to 24 advertise. We're not going to -- we're not going 25 to go after the people that don't want to be in 40 1 our business. We're going to advertise for the 2 out-of-town conventions. It's one of those, 3 people will know it's there; word of mouth, but by 4 walking by at lunch, you'd never know what's going 5 on inside. There's not one window. There's two 6 sets of double doors, so even if the front door's 7 open, you can't see in. So I don't think anyone 8 would be, have any knowledge of what's inside. 9 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 10 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 11 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: At your other 12 location, what percentage of the patrons actually 13 utilize the valet service? 14 MR. FERRARO: In Milwaukee, we don't 15 have a valet because we have a parking lot that 16 holds almost 400 cars; Madison, the same, we have 17 about 250; and in Juneau, we have -- we don't have 18 a parking lot, but there's a lot of street 19 parking, and we didn't have a need for valet out 20 there. It's never been an issue. If it was, we 21 had a company online, but it hasn't been an issue 22 in almost six years, so we didn't hire one. But 23 I've already got the contract with Ricky from No 24 Problem. 25 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: You were saying they 41 1 already do, but I thought you were saying they did 2 valet with you? 3 MR. FERRARO: No, they do Milwaukee 4 Street. They do for Carnevor, and all of that. 5 The whole street, one company does all of that. 6 So that's -- you're talking well over 1,000 people 7 on a Friday night. They handle it all without 8 incident. 9 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Well, people won't be 10 required -- your patrons aren't required to use 11 the valet though, right? 12 MR. FERRARO: Not required, no, but 13 they're going to have to find a parking spot. 14 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: So you don't -- 15 you're not really in control of whether people 16 choose to use the valet or the street. 17 MR. FERRARO: One thing we know with 18 research is most out-of-town people have either a 19 rental car or 90 percent are going to be taking 20 cabs. So besides valet, I think there's going to 21 be a lot of cab drop-off. Which, again, we're 22 going to apply for a loading zone for the whole 23 entire front of the building, so again, the cabs 24 can drop off, limos can drop off, and the people 25 can valet. That's, again, most out-of-town people 42 1 don't have cars. 2 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 3 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: How do you know 4 that most of your patrons are going to be 5 out-of-town versus local? 6 MR. FERRARO: That's where all of the 7 marketing is going. That's all I've heard. And 8 you know, if I thought I was going to get a local 9 crowd, I wouldn't open one downtown. I mean, I've 10 heard just from being downtown myself being at the 11 nicer restaurants and hotels, the concierge, the 12 waiters, everyone is saying, "Hey, my customers 13 would like to go out to your place on Highway 100, 14 but it's too far of a cab ride," they don't feel 15 that the clubs downtown -- there's two downtown 16 that are insufficient, "We wouldn't even want to 17 send them there." So just from hearing from all 18 the, plenty of the high-end hotels and 19 restaurants, there's definitely a call for a 20 high-end gentlemen's club downtown. And that's 21 what we are going to provide for them; would like 22 to provide. 23 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 24 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 25 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: What if that doesn't 43 1 work? 2 MR. FERRARO: We are putting a 3 $2 million investment into this place. So we have 4 done a lot of research over years and years, and 5 we feel it's going to. It's going to -- I mean, 6 it's like anything else, anything can fail, but 7 we're very confident. And it's all of our own 8 money; it's not investor money. It's not 9 out-of-town money; it's our hard-earned money that 10 we're putting into it. So we're pretty confident. 11 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I'm serious, like, 12 what's your plan B? Like if the $20 cover charge 13 isn't working, if you're not pulling the 14 out-of-town crowd that you've intended, if you're 15 not getting the upscale that you want, like, 16 seriously, what's your plan B? 17 MR. FERRARO: Well, we had a place, I 18 owned Vanity. And we went down there, and we had 19 a nice place; nightclub. And I was not too 20 familiar with the nightclub business. Ran it for 21 about a year, year-and-a-half, and lost a lot of 22 money, you know. We sold it for a huge loss. We 23 didn't flip it. We didn't try to go a different 24 route. 25 We know how to run a gentlemen's club. 44 1 So if we cannot succeed at a gentlemen's club, 2 we're going to lose a lot of money and put it up 3 for sale. I will not go an alternative route of 4 trying to do underage or do any crazy dance club, 5 nightclub. That I've proven. I've lost a couple 6 hundred thousand dollars at small locations 7 because I'm not going to go that route. I don't 8 want to ruin my name in the city because I know I 9 can make money and open other businesses. But if 10 I have a bad reputation, that won't be so easy to 11 do, if it's possible at all. 12 And the place we took over had a 13 problem, it was actually in Bob Bauman's district, 14 and we met with him before we opened. There were 15 noise complaints. And we got in there, and we 16 lost -- probably didn't make as much money because 17 we had to keep quieter music, and people didn't -- 18 they wanted the louder music. There was comments 19 all across the street. They were complaining 20 before. We opened up, we didn't have one 21 complaint. We put in a vestibule, everything they 22 wanted, but we just didn't make money, and we 23 sold. And, again, I will not lower myself to try 24 to do something that I don't know how to do and 25 cause problems. 45 1 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 2 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: So you're saying 3 you wouldn't reduce the cover charge if you 4 weren't getting enough patrons? 5 MR. FERRARO: I mean, I would adjust the 6 cover charge depending -- as long as I get the 7 right clientele. I mean, I'm going to -- I'll 8 comp people in if it's -- if someone calls me from 9 one of the restaurants and says, "Hey, I got four 10 guys came over here, spent money on dinner," I'm 11 going to comp them through the door, of course. 12 But if at any point, me doing anything sacrifices 13 the clientele, anything at all, that I will not 14 do. 15 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any closing 16 questions for this witness? 17 MR. OLSON: Yeah. 18 So are you still concerned that you're 19 out-of-town visitors will be embarrassed if they 20 just find out through word of mouth that this is a 21 gentlemen's club even though it doesn't look like 22 one on the outside and even though there's no 23 parking or traffic problems? 24 MR. GABLE: I do. I'll admit it seems 25 you've done a lot of work on research on this, but 46 1 I still think that everyone will be aware of 2 what's going on. And this is a large corporation, 3 I don't think people expect to have that kind of 4 location across the street. 5 MR. OLSON: Is part or your fear that 6 some of your out-of-town business visitors will 7 have moral objections to topless entertainment? 8 MR. GABLE: Not the fact that it exists; 9 just the fact that it's across the street. 10 MR. OLSON: Not have objections being in 11 proximity to topless entertainment of a moral 12 nature; that they would be able to get around it 13 if it were five miles away? 14 MR. GABLE: I believe so, yes. 15 MR. OLSON: Do you have any authority to 16 speak for your company? 17 MR. GABLE: No. 18 MR. OLSON: Thank you. That's all. 19 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 20 Next witness. Please state your name 21 and address for the record. 22 MS. SUMMERS: Sherry Summers, 322 West 23 State Street, 301, Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53203. 24 I'm opposed to the licensing. I've 25 lived in the neighborhood for about 12 years. 47 1 I've watched many businesses come and go over the 2 past couple of years. I've been involved with the 3 redevelopment of the Westown area. We put a lot 4 of time and energy into trying to attract retail 5 and upstanding business. And I don't feel at this 6 present time that this type of establishment is a 7 good fit for the neighborhood. 8 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Questions by 9 Committee? 10 Can you state why you don't feel it's a 11 good fit for the neighborhood? 12 MS. SUMMERS: We fight an uphill battle 13 to try and maintain a clean district, a clean 14 neighborhood. I walk down Old World Third Street 15 several times per day, because I also work in the 16 neighborhood, and I guess I'm concerned with the 17 type of individuals that will be coming. And, no, 18 I can't prove that it's going to be a detriment, 19 but I don't feel comfortable. And it's not a 20 moral judgment; it's a personal judgment. 21 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 22 Attorney Olson. 23 MR. OLSON: You understand that the 24 choice here is between having Silk run by John 25 Ferraro, who's been running a gentlemen's club in 48 1 Milwaukee for over five years and has zero 2 citations, or continuing to have Rusty's, which 3 had 72 citations for underage drinking in one day? 4 MS. SUMMERS: I've actually been to Silk 5 several times myself. I don't have any personal 6 objections to the way the business is run, I just 7 don't think this is a good fit for the 8 neighborhood. 9 MR. OLSON: Compared to Rusty's? 10 MS. SUMMERS: Rusty's has -- okay, my 11 understanding of that situation is that there was 12 one evening where there were several underage 13 drinkers. So it's not like a consecutive, they're 14 getting busted every other day for underage 15 drinking. That happens to almost every 16 establishment in the downtown neighborhood and 17 including areas outside of the downtown 18 neighborhood. So, you know, underage drinkers, it 19 happens. So can I fault Rusty's for that? Yes. 20 Am I going to hold it against them? No. 21 MR. OLSON: Did you hear all of the 22 other complaints that he had at his other 23 location? 24 MR. SUMMERS: No. I wouldn't be 25 concerned with the other location because it's not 49 1 in my neighborhood. 2 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair, I'd like to 3 jump in here if I could. 4 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Sure, go ahead. 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And again indicate that 6 the attorneys can ask any questions they want, but 7 I want to indicate that if you think -- as the 8 chairman mentioned, there is a myriad of details 9 that go into all of our decisions. And we have 10 pretty good memories of what those were. And the 11 same law firm has consistently brought up 12 arguments about, every time there was a case, they 13 would bring up Pizza Shuttle in my district and 14 act like this committee was just willy-nilly 15 ignoring our own precedents. And I just want to 16 let you know, we're aware of our own precedents. 17 We're aware of how complicated they can sometimes 18 be. And I would hope you would not twist one fact 19 and continue to repeat it and expect it will have 20 any effect, at least on this committee member. 21 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 22 MR. OLSON: Let me say a word in 23 response to that. I'm not meaning to insult the 24 committee, but I do want to explore with some of 25 these witnesses where they're coming from. 50 1 ALDERMAN KOVAC: I'm just letting you 2 know, it's legitimate questions, and if she has 3 knowledge of what happened that night -- 4 MR. OLSON: If she -- 5 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: But if she's 6 opposed to the strip club, what relevance is it if 7 she didn't take time to come down for another 8 matter? She's opposed to the strip club. It 9 would be more helpful to just find out why she's, 10 you know, opposed to it without going through this 11 whole issue of other licenses. 12 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 13 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: With that, 14 Alderwoman Coggs. 15 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair, I do want 16 to also add that the constant reference to the 17 history of the previous person, if we're going to 18 bring questions into it, it could also make a 19 committee member question your judgment for 20 subleasing to them. Because you obviously must 21 have known that record too. So that's just to 22 piggyback on what was already been stated -- 23 MR. FERRARO: I did not know -- 24 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: -- that argument. 25 You knew or should have known. Because, 51 1 obviously, your attorneys know now, and they're 2 throwing it in our faces now. So that's just a 3 slippery slope. 4 So I'm just agreeing with Alderman Kovac 5 that that's just a slippery slope. We -- and it's 6 much more better information that you could get -- 7 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: As Alderman Kovac 8 mentioned, I referenced that earlier. So let's -- 9 I hope we don't have to reference that again. 10 Because we have three of the five committee 11 members stressing that. So hopefully the message 12 got through without Alderman Perez jumping in or 13 Alderman -- I'm surprised that Alderman Dudzik 14 hasn't jumped in yet -- 15 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Hey. 16 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: -- on that one. 17 Okay. Go ahead. 18 MR. OLSON: The reason you object to the 19 proposed license and not to the current 20 establishment is the nature of the entertainment 21 program that it's going to be offering, correct? 22 MS. SUMMERS: I was in attendance for 23 Rusty's, and I opposed it. 24 MR. OLSON: The reason you object to the 25 gentlemen's club is the nature of the 52 1 entertainment program though, correct? 2 MS. SUMMERS: No. 3 MR. OLSON: So you object to what? Any 4 bar at that establishment? 5 MS. SUMMERS: Pretty much. 6 MR. OLSON: I think Mr. Weir, the 7 building owner, is satisfied that that's the only 8 thing that's ever going to be there. 9 MS. SUMMERS: Mr. Weir? 10 MR. OLSON: Yes. 11 MS. SUMMERS: He's my boss. 12 MR. OLSON: Thank you. That's all. 13 MS. SUMMERS: Sure. 14 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Next please. 15 Please state your name and address for the record. 16 MS. LEWIS: Sarah Lewis, and my address 17 is 720 North Old World Third Street. I've lived 18 at 720 North Old World Third Street for 19 approximately five, maybe close to six years now. 20 It is my home. This is a residential area to the 21 extent that there is this large apartment complex, 22 and we are not the only ones within a relatively 23 small vicinity of the proposed location for this 24 strip club or gentlemen's club or entertainment 25 facility. 53 1 There are a number of reasons why I'm 2 opposed to this. And I'm speaking on behalf of 3 myself as a citizen and a community member and a 4 resident at 720 North Old World Third Street. 5 I will start by addressing what I would 6 call concerns related to just the nature of the 7 community and how this may have an impact on that: 8 how it may impact, for example, perception of our 9 apartment building; the property value of our 10 apartment building; the type of tenants that can 11 be attracted to our apartment building as well as 12 others; and also addressing issues about the type 13 of individuals that do come to downtown and do 14 spend time downtown enjoying the entertainment 15 opportunities. And not all of those individuals 16 are adult males wearing suits, we all hope, that 17 wish to attend a strip club. There are many, many 18 children that are brought to this area over 19 weekends. There are lots of shows that cater to 20 children on weekends. I frequently see throngs of 21 them crossing the street. They come from out of 22 town. I would suspect; I don't have data to back 23 this up, but I would suspect that many of these 24 families coming from out of town come to the city 25 to see these entertainments for their kids, maybe 54 1 spending the night in hotels. They may be in the 2 area in the evening hours. And I think that's a 3 concern. 4 I think it's -- I think the nature of 5 the business is something that has to be looked at 6 from the perspective of the nature of this area. 7 It is a burgeoning residential area. This is 8 unlike the other three locations that have been 9 discussed. Those locations are all where there is 10 space surrounding the strip club, there are 11 parking lots. It is not wedged right in the 12 middle of the community center or lifeblood of the 13 downtown of the city. This is a very compact 14 area. It is going to cause congestion. And I 15 recognize that the bars cause congestion too, but 16 the issues surrounding this go above and beyond 17 what's presented by a bar. 18 So I think it has the risk to harm 19 property values, to discourage tenants; and yes, 20 the nature of the business will discourage 21 tenants. I think it's also a potentially 22 problematic issue for individuals who bring their 23 children here, either from parts of the greater 24 Milwaukee area or otherwise. 25 The second thing I'd like to address 55 1 regarding this that I think is particularly 2 compelling, and I, again, address these issues 3 personally on behalf of myself; however, as a 4 citizen presenting here at this hearing, I do have 5 the background working in law enforcement. I am 6 an assistant district attorney. And my background 7 in law enforcement involves handling prosecutions 8 that deal with human trafficking, pimping and 9 pandering. And quite frankly, these facilities 10 are a hotbed of that activity, whether the person 11 who owns them and manages them are aware of it or 12 not. And regardless of the fact that they may 13 make efforts to attempt to, you know, prohibit 14 that activity; they may have a policy against it; 15 they may actually take efforts to the best extent 16 possible to not have prostitutes and pimps there. 17 However, the reality of it is that that activity 18 is very hard to ferret out. 19 I think that facilities like this one 20 have great difficulty ensuring, for example, that 21 their dancers are not underage. They don't know 22 that the dancers are not setting up prostitution 23 dates. The fact of the matter is that frequently 24 these pimps start girls out at strip clubs. They 25 have them strip at places like Silk and give them 56 1 the money, and it escalates from there. 2 Frequently, the pimps will pick up the girls that 3 are engaged in the stripping right outside of the 4 place. And these are violent individuals with 5 lengthy criminal records. This is -- this is much 6 more complex than some drunk gentleman on the 7 street or congested parking. And the nature of 8 the business is a significant issue. 9 And I'm not here speaking as a moral 10 objection, that I'm stating I am just against 11 strip clubs on principle, no; rather, I'm pointing 12 out the nature of the business is the type that is 13 a hotbed for underlying criminal activity. 14 Whether the managers and owners want that or not, 15 it's very hard to control. I mean, he stated that 16 he rents the stage to these individual dancers. 17 Obviously, they're not paid a salary. I don't 18 know what process is undertaken to attempt to 19 verify who they are, their ages, backgrounds and 20 all of that. And many of the people that get 21 involved with this are young, they're people from 22 difficult backgrounds, they are people that have 23 previously been sexually exploited, abused or 24 molested. And it's just -- I think it's going to 25 present a significant problem. 57 1 I understand that these facilities 2 exist. And I think the fact that they are often 3 in outlying areas or in areas that are not 4 residential in nature; are not in the middle of 5 downtown where children and other residents go for 6 appropriate entertainment, I think it's a problem 7 here. I think this type of facility is much, much 8 more properly venued where the current locations 9 are: somewhere where you're outside of the 10 immediate downtown area. 11 I really -- this is, ladies and 12 gentlemen, this club is going to be literally, 13 like, I don't know, 20 feet from my front door. 14 This is a significant issue for me. And given my 15 background working with the district attorney's 16 office and in cases that have brought up or 17 implicated issues of individuals engaged in 18 stripping -- and I'm sure the next question I will 19 get is, "Well, have you encountered one who was 20 stripping at Silk, per se?" I don't have that 21 information at my fingertips right now; however, I 22 would be happy to consult police reports that I 23 have and find out if that's the case. And I would 24 be curious if there was a call to police reports 25 to find out how many incidents of 58 1 prostitution-related activities or pimping and 2 pandering or trafficking-related activities get 3 implicated at Silk establishments. 4 I am very much opposed to this. I mean, 5 for any of you, this would be like, you know, you 6 have your home, say, in Wauwatosa, and somebody 7 buys a house across the street and opens a strip 8 club. 9 You know, we have a mall right there. 10 That mall attracts people. The idea of attempting 11 to further gentrify this area and create a sense 12 of community is going to be completely undermined 13 by this type of establishment. 14 So I have a plethora of concerns about 15 it, and I think it's just -- this is just not the 16 right place for it. If this gentleman wants to 17 open up another establishment, find a similar 18 venue or location to the other ones where there is 19 space and it's not in the middle of downtown and 20 it's not right next door to a large residential 21 complex. 22 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 23 Questions by Committee? 24 Questions by Attorney Olson? 25 MR. OLSON: Are you aware that the 59 1 information we've been given in connection with 2 the processing of this application shows that 3 there are approximately 150 liquor license 4 establishments within a one-mile radius of this 5 location? 6 MS. LEWIS: I don't know that I was 7 aware of that figure. But I guess I don't see the 8 relevance. 9 MR. OLSON: Well, it's not exclusively a 10 residential area like some suburbs miles and miles 11 from -- 12 MS. LEWIS: Perhaps it is not, but there 13 are many areas that are mixed residential and 14 business, and this is one of them. 15 MR. OLSON: Do you know where Silk 16 Juneau is? 17 MS. LEWIS: Is it in the city of Juneau? 18 I'm not familiar with it. 19 MR. OLSON: It's not in an outlying area 20 near the country. Juneau is the county seat of 21 Dodge County. There is a courthouse square that 22 is the center of the City of Juneau and Silk 23 Juneau is right on the courthouse square downtown. 24 And that's the city where the mayor wrote a letter 25 to this committee that said there are no problems 60 1 with crime, no problems with property values, no 2 problems with parking or traffic. 3 MS. LEWIS: I don't live in Juneau. I'm 4 concerned with Milwaukee; not Juneau. I would be 5 curious to know how many miles, feet, what have 6 you, that Juneau location is from the nearest 7 residential, whether it's a home or apartment 8 building. But I don't know that information. I 9 think it's apples and oranges. 10 MR. OLSON: What you heard earlier from 11 the discussions about that place is that there are 12 residential units right along the block in the 13 upstairs apartment above the commercial 14 businesses, but there's also exclusively 15 residential areas a half-block away. But let's 16 get back to Milwaukee. 17 Have you been involved in any human 18 trafficking cases that have implicated Silk 19 Milwaukee? 20 MS. LEWIS: And as I indicated to you, I 21 don't want to make a statement that may not be 22 accurate. I would need to consult information to 23 confirm, but this Silk is one of the predominant 24 adult entertainment places, and I believe it has 25 come up at times, but I don't want to speak with 61 1 certainty without consulting information. I would 2 be happy to the extent I'm able to attempt to 3 provide information, but even if it hasn't, it has 4 the propensity to do so. 5 MR. OLSON: When Silk's liquor license 6 comes up for review for this committee, the 7 committee gets police reports that reference 8 incidents and occurrences of police concerning 9 Silk, I understand. Is there any reason why they 10 wouldn't be getting police reports if there were 11 human trafficking concerns that made it into the 12 police reports? 13 MS. LEWIS: Well, I would have to review 14 the police reports. I will tell you that 15 sometimes initial police reports don't wind up 16 addressing the underlying issue. And quite 17 frankly, the way this often comes out is in some 18 other context. Meaning that the pimping or 19 pandering or trafficking situation comes to light 20 after there's prostitution activity, and it may be 21 a wholly different place. But what we'll wind up 22 hearing is that the girls, many of them are 23 juveniles and young women that get involved, we 24 find out that initially the trafficker had them 25 stripping at a strip club. So those reports are 62 1 not going to come up if you're running reports 2 that relate to the address of Silk. 3 MR. OLSON: If there is a problem like 4 that, it's not going to be solved by moving the 5 gentlemen's club from Old World Third Street to 6 some rural location though, right? 7 MS. LEWIS: I understand. You do make a 8 point. That issue would occur even if they're out 9 of town; however, my response to that would be 10 that we see these people located in the city. 11 Meaning, they usually operate out of the city and 12 they'll take girls to suburban locations, they'll 13 take them to other counties; that absolutely 14 happens. But they usually procure people right 15 here in Milwaukee and in depressed areas of 16 Milwaukee. So having access to a strip club 17 downtown that's much closer, all the more better 18 and easier to facilitate the activity. 19 MR. OLSON: No further questions. 20 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. Thank 21 you. 22 Next. Please state your full name and 23 address for the record. 24 MS. MILLER: My name is Janet Miller. I 25 live at 720 North Old World Third Street. 63 1 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Ma'am, before you 2 get started, please, when you're speaking, please, 3 we've got a lot of people here that have to 4 testify, and we really haven't made up too much 5 ground in the last, you know, 45 minutes. So just 6 kindly be as succinct as you possibly can. 7 MS. MILLER: The reason I came up after 8 Sarah is because I do, you know, I wanted to say 9 what everyone else said basically about the 10 parking, the safety, the security. But I have 11 another issue. I work in the Germania Building at 12 135 West Wells, and we have two programs in that 13 building that I'd like to talk about with regard 14 to women: one is Sojourner Truth Family Peace 15 Center that deals with women who are abused, 16 neglected, beaten, battered, pimped out and 17 pandered, as Sarah was saying; and I work on the 18 7th floor at the Benedict Center. We work with 19 women who are involved in criminal activities. We 20 run a harm reduction program for women who have 21 been involved in drugs and alcohol and also women 22 who have been involved in prostitution. 23 My objection is that we're putting this 24 establishment, as Sarah's discussed, right in the 25 middle of a place where we're trying to do just 64 1 the opposite, which is to help women get educated, 2 get on their feet, not be demeaned by a business 3 that is, in my opinion, inappropriate. We're 4 talking about a gentlemen's club. I can't -- I 5 would venture to say that more than 50 percent of 6 conventions that they're talking about cater to 7 women. 8 I also wanted to say, she talked a 9 little bit about the Grand Avenue. We can't get a 10 business in there that lasts more than 20 minutes 11 in the Grand Avenue right now. And you're talking 12 about trying to attract families to come downtown 13 to spend their money down there, to bring their 14 children, to participate in -- to go to the 15 museum, to go to Discovery World, to go to those 16 activities for families, and then we're going to 17 put a strip club right in the middle of that. 18 Yes, I understand about bars and 19 alcohol. Every place that serves food serves 20 alcohol. And that is kind of, you know, if you 21 live downtown, if you work downtown, that's kind 22 of expected, but a strip club is not expected. 23 And I think that this is wrong for our 24 neighborhood. 25 I just want to mention too, that that 65 1 building, 730 Old World, I can't imagine that he 2 wants to put $2 million into his business into 3 that dilapidated building that needs probably all 4 kinds of renovation. Our management has put tons 5 of money into the Grand Wisconsin to add value to 6 the neighborhood and improve the quality of life 7 down there, and I don't see anything being done to 8 that building except putting poor businesses in 9 there that are attracting people that we don't 10 want to live next to as our neighbors. 11 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Any questions by 12 Committee? 13 Okay. Attorney Olson. 14 MR. OLSON: Your view of the topless 15 entertainment is demeaning to women, I take it? 16 MS. MILLER: Yes. 17 MR. OLSON: And do you think that it 18 sends a message of sexual objectification to 19 women? 20 MS. MILLER: Yes. 21 MR. OLSON: And you don't want the women 22 that are the client groups of these two 23 organizations you mentioned to get that message? 24 MS. MILLER: That's correct. 25 MR. OLSON: That's all. 66 1 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 2 Next. State your name and address. 3 MS. BARS: My name is Karen Bars, and I 4 live at 720 North Old World Third Street, 5 Apartment 1010. I've been there a couple years 6 now. I have four children. And I love my 7 neighborhood. I love my building. I love my 8 neighbors. I enjoy it. 9 I think I'm here -- well, I am here 10 today because I do oppose the strip club in this 11 site, the location for it. It is very, very, very 12 close. It is tight quarters. 13 I enjoy walking my dog. I enjoy biking 14 with my kids. I enjoy spending time in my 15 community visiting the businesses there, meeting 16 the tourists, the people on the street. 17 We live on a historical street. We have 18 a beautiful historical building that our company 19 rents from and renovated and restored and 20 preserved the historical part. We are on a 21 historical street. We have part of the parade 22 route that families come. I don't think a strip 23 club backdrop is appropriate for those parades, 24 right, the parade route. The U.S. Cellular 25 building, the Bradley Center, the circus, all of 67 1 those things are right there. So there's lots of 2 children there. During the summer, we have the 3 River Rhythm at the Pier Marquette Park where 4 families are encouraged to participate. And it's 5 an evening of music that families attend. A strip 6 club a block way, I don't think is appropriate. 7 I work part time at a retail shop in the 8 city. I walk home at night. I do get concerned 9 for my safety. I do oppose this. I love my 10 neighborhood. I don't feel comfortable with this 11 at all. And I appreciate the time, and I don't 12 think it's right to put it right next to a 13 residential building. It is right across from the 14 federal building. There is three other big 15 residential buildings on the other three sides of 16 this site that you're looking to put a strip club 17 in. I don't think it belongs next to my home, 18 just like I don't think you would want it next to 19 yours. 20 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 21 Committee? 22 MS. BARS: I'm sorry, if I ask you to 23 repeat stuff; I'm hearing impaired. 24 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 25 MS. BARS: That's probably why I'm 68 1 shaking a little bit; I'm a little bit nervous 2 about that. 3 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: You did very well. 4 You did very well. I was just asking the 5 committee if they had any questions -- 6 MS. BARS: Okay. 7 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: -- of you at this 8 point in time. 9 Any Questions by Committee? 10 Okay. Questions by Attorney Olson? 11 MR. OLSON: Even though this is going to 12 be a dignified exterior that doesn't advertise 13 itself as a gentlemen's club by any signage; just 14 has the single word "Silk" on one sign and no 15 flashing lights, really something that looks more 16 dignified than the average bank, you're concerned 17 about the impression it's going to make on 18 visiting families, I take it? 19 MS. BARS: Repeat that last part. 20 MR. OLSON: You're concerned about the 21 impression it's going to make on visiting 22 families? 23 MS. BARS: Yeah, I don't think it's 24 appropriate. I think there's so many other places 25 that you could put this rather than in a 69 1 residential area, a historical area. I mean, it's 2 a well-known property, a part of Milwaukee. Why 3 would you want to do that? Why would you want to 4 have a building closed off, limited signs, when 5 you could have a facility that welcomes people in 6 it? Why do I want to walk by a building that, 7 "What's going on in there?" That type of 8 clientele. I really don't feel comfortable with 9 that at all. 10 I have a daughter that attends Marquette 11 University down the street. I don't want to be 12 worried about her coming home after spending hours 13 in the library at night with the type of clientele 14 there. I have two other younger children that 15 attend school. Excuse me. I don't want them to 16 be worried about parking their car and walking 17 through the alley. I don't think it's 18 appropriate. There's too many other places that 19 you could put this that would not impose on the 20 people, citizens of the community. 21 MR. OLSON: Have you given any thought 22 to the idea that with the security staff that an 23 upscale gentlemen's club will have on duty both 24 inside and outside of the establishment and the 25 valet parking process going on with all of the 70 1 other people that arrive at their business coming 2 and going and in the presence, you might actually 3 be objectively safer than an ordinary tavern? 4 MS. BARS: I like my community the way 5 it is. I don't think people standing there and 6 bringing security will make me feel any safer. 7 MR. OLSON: I read an account of an 8 alderman commenting on this business, and I wonder 9 whether you agree with this sentiment that he 10 expressed to the effect that adult cabaret 11 customers are more likely to be older and to leave 12 for the evening without loitering near the 13 business and parking lot and not cause 14 disturbances. 15 MS. BARS: Do I agree with that? 16 MR. OLSON: Yeah. 17 MS. BARS: I don't think I'm educated 18 enough to make that agreement or not. I really 19 don't know. I just know that when I can have 20 another establishment in my neighborhood that 21 families can patronize or the different type of 22 clientele that you would draw, I would definitely 23 prefer something that would be somewhat useful or 24 actually useful for the historical area of our 25 community. 71 1 MR. OLSON: Are you more comfortable 2 with the existing tavern operation there, Rusty's, 3 than you would be with the gentlemen's club that's 4 been described? 5 MS. BARS: Would I be more comfortable 6 with Rusty's rather than a gentlemen's club? I am 7 more comfortable with Rusty's. It is, you know, a 8 business district as well as residential; however, 9 again, the type of clientele and bringing in 10 bouncers or security people and stuff, it's 11 intimidating. It's not welcoming. Would you want 12 to walk down the street with your family with 13 security people standing around? 14 MR. FERRARO: Our guys are actually -- 15 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Sir, please. 16 MR. FERRARO: I'm sorry. 17 MS. BARS: I mean, again, I walk home in 18 the evening from a retail shop in town. I don't 19 want to sit there and see that type of clientele 20 coming and going. I want to be able to feel 21 comfortable in my neighborhood. 22 MR. OLSON: When you say "that type of 23 clientele --" 24 MS. BARS: Yes, people that come to see 25 nudity and strippers, that type of clientele, yes. 72 1 MR. OLSON: You think they're different 2 than other people? 3 MS. BARS: I'm sorry? 4 MR. OLSON: You think they're different 5 than other people? 6 MS. BARS: Well, you know what, that's 7 their business, I just don't want it in my 8 neighborhood. Like I said, there's a place for 9 it. Would you want it in your neighborhood? Do 10 you want to be about 20 feet from that door? 11 MR. OLSON: I would -- 12 MS. BARS: Really? You would welcome 13 your family to walk at night, and be right there 14 next to the strip club when you can have a better 15 establishment that would welcome openly families? 16 MR. OLSON: I know an alderman in the 17 city of Madison who lives next door to Visions and 18 has for 25 years with no problems. 19 MS. BARS: That's great. Good for the 20 alderman. See, like I said, there's a place for 21 everything, but not this in my neighborhood. 22 MR. OLSON: Thank you. No further 23 questions. 24 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 25 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Ma'am, ma'am. 73 1 MS. BARS: Sorry. 2 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: That's okay. I've got 3 a hearing impairment too, my wife tells me all of 4 the time. 5 Would you prefer this to be a vacant 6 building as opposed to -- 7 MS. BARS: Well, why would you want a 8 vacant building? Why would -- why can't they 9 continue the way it is right now? You know what 10 I'm saying? 11 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: They can if -- 12 MS. BARS: And you know, like the Grand 13 Avenue Mall across the street is striving trying 14 to get people that it -- if we could have what we 15 have going now, why are we beating this up? Why 16 are we doing this? Why are we taking the citizens 17 and the community and not welcoming it? Why can't 18 we take and find like one of the adult stores 19 along the freeway and put the strip club next to 20 there where the citizens don't have to be right 21 next to it? I don't understand that. We have a 22 federal building across the street. Really? The 23 federal people. This is our community, our 24 government, and we have a strip club across the 25 street? I don't get this. 74 1 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Not that you would 2 come out to object to this, but the idea of 3 placing a strip club across the street from, say, 4 the Bradley Center, or next to the Bradley Center, 5 would that be acceptable to you? 6 MS. BARS: With a strip club -- I'm 7 sorry, say it again. 8 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: No, that's fine. 9 If this individual should choose to open 10 a strip club next to the Bradley Center -- 11 MS. BARS: I don't agree with that 12 either. I mean, your kids come to those events; 13 children. You see kids coming out of there all of 14 the time: Disney on Ice. Really? 15 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: So your position is 16 that nowhere that children or families are/could 17 be, it would be acceptable for a gentlemen's club? 18 MS. BARS: I don't think when you have 19 family entertainment, why would you put nudity, a 20 strip club facility near that? Why would you 21 expose your children to that? They get enough of 22 that already. Why would you do this? I don't 23 understand that. 24 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. 25 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 75 1 MS. BARS: Thank you. 2 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: You did great. 3 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Yeah, very good. 4 Okay. Next witness, please. Please 5 state your name and address. And please make your 6 comments as succinct as possible. We still have a 7 lot of people to testify. 8 MS. MCCOY: Yes, my name is Aletia 9 McCoy. I also live at 720 North Old World Third. 10 I've been there, I've been downtown for 25 years, 11 and I've lived in this building for five. And 12 I've witnessed everything that happens in that 13 area. 14 And one of the things that I would like 15 to say is, I strongly object to the strip club, 16 gentlemen's club. And the reason being is, even 17 though you're saying that these gentlemen, and 18 ladies and gentlemen that come to the bar is going 19 to be dressed for the occasion, you still cannot 20 convince me, if I wear high heels and look 21 exquisite, that I'm not going to sit at a bar and 22 get drunk and act a fool. So I don't care how old 23 these people are, there's also a -- there's always 24 a coincident (sic) that these things will happen. 25 And also, I would like to say, and I'll 76 1 sum this up, is that it also invites more noise, 2 more litter, and congested traffic. And I have 3 seen all these things happen. And you're saying 4 that these things are not going to happen, but I 5 can't see it not happening with that type of 6 nightclub. And I object strongly. That's it. 7 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Questions by 8 Committee? 9 Questions by Attorney Olson? 10 MR. OLSON: Just talking about matters 11 of degree comparing the bar that's there now or a 12 typical bar to a gentlemen's club with a $20 cover 13 and charging $15 for drinks, accepting the fact 14 that any kind of a bar operation somebody is going 15 to get a drunk sometime probably -- 16 MS. MCCOY: Definitely. 17 MR. OLSON: -- do you think it will be 18 more of a problem at a gentlemen's club than the 19 bar that's there now? 20 MS. MCCOY: It could be. 21 MR. OLSON: But you don't have any 22 reasons to believe it will be, right? 23 MS. MCCOY: I don't have any reasons to 24 believe it won't be either. 25 MR. OLSON: And in terms of noise, 77 1 litter and traffic, you don't have any reason to 2 believe those will be more of a problem with a 3 gentlemen's club than with a regular bar, right? 4 MR. MCCOY: No, I do not. 5 MR. OLSON: No further questions. 6 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 7 Next witness. 8 Thank you, ma'am. I appreciate it. 9 Very succinct, straight to the point. 10 Yes, sir, name and address, please. 11 MR. MCCRACKEN: David McCracken. I also 12 live at 720 North Old World Third Street. I've 13 lived three years this summer, so I've also been 14 there long enough to witness all of the other 15 activities that have gone on in the neighborhood. 16 My objection isn't so much to this particular 17 applicant as it is to just bringing any type of 18 business into the area that promotes the type of 19 activities that have been going on in the 20 neighborhood because of the type of people that 21 have tended to frequent that part of Milwaukee. 22 So I think we're at a time when we're 23 trying to improve the area, definitely. Our 24 building has new management; they put a lot into 25 improving our residential community as everybody 78 1 else has said here before. So I totally agree 2 with all of the same concerns about the activities 3 that go on at that particular, in that area in 4 general. 5 I would also like to say that I have 6 been to strip clubs myself. And so I do know what 7 happens in strip clubs, and I know what kind of 8 people go to strip clubs. I also know what people 9 think about that areas where strip clubs are at. 10 I don't want to live in a neighborhood where 11 there's a strip club, so that my parents come to 12 my house, people that I work with come to visit me 13 and see that I live next door to a strip club. 14 Even if it only has a sign that says "Silk," it's 15 either a fabric store, or it's -- and if it's not 16 a fabric store that we're not allowed to go into 17 because there's no windows letting us know it's a 18 fabric store, I think it's pretty obvious what it 19 is. 20 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Questions by 21 Committee? 22 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chair. 23 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 24 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I guess a similar 25 question for the young lady in the white sweater 79 1 that I had, and that is: Would you prefer to have 2 a vacant building? Because what you're requesting 3 of the owner of the building might not occur for 4 ten years. 5 MR. MCCRACKEN: I -- 6 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: So you'd prefer a 7 vacant building in this entertainment/retail area 8 as opposed the Rusty's or the Silks of the world? 9 MR. MCCRACKEN: I'm not aware of what's 10 going on in the building as far as the business 11 right now. I know there is currently a bar there, 12 which I have no objection to. I would prefer the 13 building as vacant rather than a gentlemen's club, 14 yes. 15 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Or Rusty's? 16 MR. MCCRACKEN: No. I would prefer it 17 to be occupied, just not by the -- 18 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Anything that brings 19 undesirable people into the neighborhood? 20 MR. MCCRACKEN: Correct. I'd also like 21 to echo the alderman, Alderwoman Coggs' comments 22 about, what is your plan B? I mean, you have, you 23 know, you've got all these ideas about the 24 business, but what happens if it doesn't work? 25 How do you control the other, you know, the 80 1 deterioration of this clientele that you're 2 expecting to draw? So I mean, I'm just fearful of 3 that situation. 4 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: When -- if I may 5 continue, Mr. Chairman? 6 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Yes. 7 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: When Mr. Ferraro owned 8 an establishment in my district not far from my 9 home, he -- and this will give you an idea how 10 naive I am -- he named it Badda Bing, which was a 11 -- the name of a strip club from the Sopranos. I 12 never watched the Sopranos. And my neighbors 13 immediately assumed it was a strip club; that I 14 allowed a strip club into the neighborhood. But 15 after they realized that it was not only not a 16 strip club, but it was not poorly run, which it 17 had been. It had illegal strippers in it before 18 Mr. Ferraro bought it. And the neighbors never 19 complained about the illegal strippers. So as 20 soon as a sign went up, they started to complain. 21 So I'm just confused as to where that 22 line is. You wouldn't know that this was a strip 23 club because it will have an "S" on it or the word 24 "Silk," or whatever. But you assume that anybody 25 that goes to a place that might be a strip club 81 1 would be problematic? 2 MR. MCCRACKEN: You're asking if I 3 assume that? 4 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Yeah. 5 MR. MCCRACKEN: Like I said, I have been 6 to strip clubs in several different cities across 7 the country. I know what types of people go to 8 strip clubs. I've been to the kinds that are 9 upscale with a dress code, I've also been to the 10 other kind, so. I mean, there's alcohol involved, 11 there's nude women, and, you know, not to repeat 12 everything that Sarah said, but I've seen all of 13 that too. 14 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. 15 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any other 16 questions by Committee? 17 If not, Attorney Olson. 18 MR. OLSON: Were you an undesirable 19 person when you went to the strip clubs you've 20 gone to? 21 MR. MCCRACKEN: At the time I went, yes, 22 I would say that. 23 MR. OLSON: Do you object to the 24 presentation of topless dancing under any 25 circumstances? 82 1 MR. MCCRACKEN: I have no objections to 2 that at all. My objection is solely to that 3 happening at this location. 4 MR. OLSON: And that relates to drawing 5 undesirable people into the area? 6 MR. MCCRACKEN: Well, I think the 7 undesirable people are already a problem in the 8 area, and I think that having an establishment 9 like this just prevents the community to be able 10 to improve those conditions. 11 MR. OLSON: So the undesirable people 12 must be drawn to places other than strip clubs, 13 because there're not enough strip clubs in that 14 area right now to draw all of the undesirables 15 that you're talking about, right? 16 I mean, there must be the undesirable 17 people that you're talking about that are already 18 there that are a problem; must be coming there for 19 other reasons. 20 MR. MCCRACKEN: Probably, sure. 21 MR. OLSON: And would you agree with me 22 that if you take an establishment and simply 23 triple all of the prices: triple the door, triple 24 the prices, you're going to draw a different type 25 of person than you did before? 83 1 MR. MCCRACKEN: I don't know. I have no 2 experience in that, in the business of nightclubs 3 and bars. 4 MR. OLSON: No further questions. 5 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chair. 6 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 7 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I just want to follow 8 up. I just want to be clear as to what I'm 9 hearing. Do you believe that anybody that goes 10 into a strip club is there for immoral purposes? 11 MR. MCCRACKEN: No. 12 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: So you believe that -- 13 MR. MCCRACKEN: You're asking me to make 14 a moral judgment; I'm not here to make a moral 15 judgment. 16 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: So if you've got an 17 individual, male or female, can go into a -- 18 because there's lots of -- 19 MR. MCCRACKEN: If this was Las Vegas, 20 that would probably be a different discussion. 21 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Because I used to be a 22 hunter, and I know women would go to this thing 23 called -- help me out -- hunters balls or 24 something like that, whatever, anyway -- I never 25 went to one, so I don't know what they're called. 84 1 But I'm kind of concerned that we keep saying we 2 don't want these undesirable people there, but 3 we're not addressing what the undesirable aspect 4 is. And so I just want to make sure that I 5 understand, is it your contention that people that 6 go to those places are engaged in some immoral 7 activity? 8 MR. MCCRACKEN: I mean, I don't have the 9 same knowledge of that kind of business that Sarah 10 talked about. And again, I'm not here to make any 11 kind of moral judgment about people that go to any 12 particular type of club. I'm saying that a strip 13 club at that location just by the nature of a 14 strip club -- again, as a patron of strip clubs 15 myself, I know the types of people that go there, 16 and I don't want to live in a neighborhood, 20 17 feet, my front door 20 feet away, from a strip 18 club. 19 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. 20 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 21 Next witness. 22 Time right now is about 2:04. 23 MS. MALVO: My name is Angela Malvo. I 24 live at 720 North Old World Third. My fiance and 25 I just moved in there two weeks ago; not even two 85 1 weeks ago, and just heard about this within the 2 past week about this going on. 3 I have no objections to somebody running 4 a business, but I have to speak from my personal 5 aspect. And it is personal because as one of the 6 other tenants spoke about, the women abused 7 sexually, I am one of those women. 8 I have a 5-year-old who is my stepson 9 that comes every other weekend. My concern comes 10 into when the girls leave the building, they have 11 to, I mean, they have to leave the building. How 12 are they going to be addressed, or how are they 13 going to be dressed? How -- where are they going 14 to be leaving? 15 I do have a dog that I do walk through 16 the alley, which is, actually, he's a very large 17 dog, a very protective dog. My concern comes in 18 is, how do I explain to my son these girls walking 19 out the back door dressed in whatever they may be 20 dressed in walking with the security? How do I 21 explain that to a 5-year-old boy? You know, yes 22 he does know that there is a bar there right now. 23 We do not take him out pretty much after, you 24 know, after dark and stuff because typically 25 that's when the crowds get a little rowdy. But to 86 1 have this going on during the day when he's there, 2 and on the weekends, any establishment gets more 3 business on weekends. I'm a server myself in 4 restaurants, so I know the business at 5 restaurants. 6 It's just a concern that we have a child 7 that we have to explain to him, you know, why 8 girls are coming out of the back door of an 9 establishment. You know, that's the way I look at 10 it. And it's only because I've been through this. 11 It's been many years ago that I experienced things 12 like this. It does kind of trigger some things 13 for me, but that's my personal issues I'll have to 14 deal with. 15 Like I said, honestly if my fiance and I 16 would have known a few weeks ago that this was 17 going on when we first moved downtown, I don't 18 know, it would have hindered my judgment to move 19 to where we moved to. I love the building. I 20 love the management. We've met so many great 21 tenants. We're not from Milwaukee. You know, 22 we're not from Wisconsin. This is all new to me. 23 And I just -- I don't agree with it, you know. 24 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 25 Any questions by Committee? 87 1 Okay. Attorney Olson. 2 MR. OLSON: I wondered if I could have 3 my client just explain how the women, 4 entertainers, will leave his establishment? See 5 if that will ameliorate this witness' concerns. 6 MR. FERRARO: At the end of the night, 7 we, our floor men, they sweep; everyone is swept 8 out of the building. Then they make sure all of 9 the customers are in their cars. We walk all of 10 the customers to their cars; the valet, the cab, 11 whatever way they are taking. Everyone walks -- 12 we secure the premises, we walk the entire lot, 13 and then we're walking the girls out one at a time 14 out the front door and out the back door. And 15 they're dressed like you're dressed, like she's 16 dressed. I mean, they come in like you go to 17 work. Some girls wear jeans, some girls wear a 18 dress, some girls -- I mean, they're not coming in 19 in like thong underwear. So it looks like any 20 other business. And they are all walked to their 21 car, they are put in their car. 22 And on the location of Highway 100 and 23 Silver Spring, we have a gas station. I actually 24 put two security guys at the gas station so the 25 girls can fill up in case there are any people 88 1 waiting there for the girls to get on the highway. 2 So we take it very, our security, very safely. 3 And as far as people -- once in a while 4 you'll have a guy waiting for a girl, and this 5 might address the whole thing with the pimps and 6 that. Anytime there's someone waiting for a girl, 7 we get the guy's name; first and last name from 8 their driver's license, call inside and ask the 9 girl if that's who is waiting for them, release 10 them, and then we run the guy's name or a 11 background check on CCAP to see if there is 12 anything. If something looks shady, we 13 investigate it. 14 So it's not like we just open the door 15 and everyone leaves. We go above and beyond, 16 which most businesses do. And if you go to a 17 restaurant at 2:30 in the morning, everyone just 18 goes. So we -- I just want you to know, it's a 19 lot safer than you might think. You might have 20 been to other clubs that don't do it that way, but 21 if you come to my club, seven days a week, 365 22 days a year, it's done that way. 23 MS. MALVO: And I hope for the safety of 24 the young women that you do take extra precautions 25 for them. 89 1 MR. FERRARO: I have been there nine 2 years without incident, so we do. 3 MS. MALVO: And, you know, I have to 4 agree with the other tenants, I don't have -- I 5 really don't have any objections to a 6 businessowner trying to run an establishment. 7 Coming from the restaurant establishment, you 8 know, it's good business. Do I have a different 9 view of the gentlemen's club? Yes, I do. But 10 that's my own personal things that have happened 11 in my life. I just, I think it would be better 12 to be in a different area. 13 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any other 14 questions? 15 MR. OLSON: Part of your discomfort is 16 just that you might be put in a position where you 17 have to explain to your children what things like 18 gentlemen's clubs are? 19 MS. MALVO: Yes. 20 MR. OLSON: That's all. Thanks. 21 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 22 Next witness. 23 Okay, now has everybody testified that 24 is planning on testifying in opposition from the 25 residents? 90 1 Are you a resident? Come on forward. 2 Please state your name and address for the record. 3 MS. RASTOLA: I'm Pamela Rastola. I 4 live at 720 Old World Third Street. I've been 5 there almost three years. I've been through 6 shootings. I've been through Martini Mike's. I 7 was at the hearing to make sure they didn't get 8 the license again. And I don't object to a 9 gentlemen's bar, but I just don't want one next 10 door to us. If we could have a nice store or 11 something in there, that would be wonderful. 12 But the biggest thing is parking. I 13 mean, as it is now on weekends, there's no parking 14 available anyplace. So my question would be: 15 Where are we going to -- where are these people 16 going to park? That's all I have. 17 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 18 Committee, questions? 19 Questions by Attorney Olson? 20 MR. OLSON: If you could -- right now, 21 people that are going to Rusty's have to find 22 their own place to park? 23 MS. RASTOLA: Yes. 24 MR. OLSON: And if you had a business 25 there that had valet parking; that would whisk 91 1 these cars away to a lot; that took some of the 2 pressure off the streets, that would be an 3 improvement? 4 MS. RASTOLA: Yes, but the thing is, 5 there's no parking. The ramps are full. I mean, 6 the hotel down the street from us, they park 7 across the street, they park everywhere. I mean, 8 as it is now, you're parking in the alley, which 9 we've got signs with no parking, they still park 10 there. They park in front of our building, and 11 that's for unloading only, and they still park 12 there. 13 MR. OLSON: I'm just saying, you can't 14 solve the whole parking problem with one 15 business -- 16 MS. RASTOLA: Right. 17 MR. OLSON: -- but if we had reserved 18 spaces in private lots and valet parking service, 19 wouldn't that relieve the pressure? 20 MS. RASTOLA: Yes, but you have to find 21 a spot first. Thank you. 22 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 23 Next witness. Okay. We're taking the 24 opposition first, and we're taking the residents 25 who are in opposition first. So if you're a 92 1 resident and you're in opposition, come to the 2 microphone. If you're not a resident, we're going 3 to start getting the business community that's in 4 opposition. 5 Are you a resident? 6 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm a resident, but 7 I'm for. 8 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. You're later 9 in the meeting. Okay, we're taking -- the 10 procedures are that you take opposition first. 11 Okay, so the businesses can come down, in 12 opposition, can come up and testify at this time. 13 State your name and address for the 14 record, please. 15 MR. ARONSON: Donald Aronson, I live at 16 608 North Broadway, Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202. 17 I'm a board member of the newly formed 18 Downtown Neighborhood Association. And we had a 19 meeting last night pertaining to the application 20 of Silk. And we had a quorum, and the vote was to 21 oppose the application. 22 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 23 Committee? 24 Do you want to state the reasons why 25 they voted in opposition? 93 1 MR. ARONSON: On behalf of myself, it's 2 a multitude of reasons. Mostly it was for the 3 location. 4 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Appropriateness of 5 the location? 6 MR. ARONSON: Yes. 7 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 8 Committee? 9 Attorney Olson. 10 MR. OLSON: Did your -- did the motion 11 that was passed to oppose the licensure state the 12 basis for the motion, or did it just -- was it 13 just a vote to oppose? 14 MR. ARONSON: No, each person made -- 15 came with an opinion, and it was a vote. 16 MR. OLSON: Was there a vote on any 17 basis to oppose, or just a vote to oppose? 18 MR. ARONSON: You'd have to check the 19 minutes. I can't tell you that, because I don't 20 know. 21 MR. OLSON: Okay. 22 MR. ARONSON: I was there, but I can't 23 answer that. 24 MR. OLSON: No further questions. 25 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 94 1 Next witness. 2 Please, people in the front row, if 3 you've already testified, can you please vacate 4 those seats? 5 And people that are going to testify 6 shortly, please sit in the front row to kind of 7 expedite matters. 8 MR. CHERNOF: Good afternoon. Steve 9 Chernof, C-H-E-R-N-O-F. I am here today actually 10 in two capacities: one is to deliver to you a 11 letter from the Greater Milwaukee Committee in 12 opposition to the application for a license; 13 someone was here from the Greater Milwaukee 14 Committee but had to leave. 15 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Perez 16 moves to take the opposition letter from the 17 Greater Milwaukee Committee, moves to enter that 18 into the record. 19 MR. MAISTELMAN: Mr. Chairman, is that 20 -- we would object that it's hearsay. Are those 21 people here? I understand -- 22 MR. CHERNOF: It's actually in writing 23 and signed by a representative of the Greater 24 Milwaukee Committee. 25 MR. MAISTELMAN: I'm going -- 95 1 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay, well -- 2 MR. MAISTELMAN: -- I had to say 3 something. 4 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Your objection is 5 duly noted. 6 Alderman Perez moves to enter into the 7 record. Any objections? None. So ordered. 8 Okay. Continue. 9 MR. CHERNOF: I'm also here as the 10 chairman of the West Wisconsin Avenue Task Force. 11 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Did you state your 12 address, sir? 13 MR. CHERNOF: Oh, I'm sorry. My home 14 address is 3722 North Lake Drive in Shorewood. 15 I'm here as the chairman of the West 16 Wisconsin Avenue Task Force, which is a group that 17 the mayor asked me to put together last year in an 18 effort to try to revitalize West Wisconsin Avenue 19 by improving the area. The group is composed of 20 stakeholders in West Wisconsin Avenue, property 21 owners and others, who have a vital interest in 22 revitalization of what once was a great shopping 23 street for the metropolitan area. 24 And the group asked me to oppose this 25 application because it will be deleterious to our 96 1 efforts to revitalize the area, and it's also out 2 of sync with the city's downtown plan. And I 3 would suggest that if the application is granted, 4 in effect what's happening is, we're turning our 5 backs on the downtown plan on revitalization 6 efforts. 7 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: When you refer to 8 "the downtown plan," are you referring to the 9 comprehensive plan? 10 MR. CHERNOF: Correct. 11 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 12 MR. CHERNOF: The 2010 Downtown 13 Comprehensive Plan. 14 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 15 Committee? 16 Questions by Attorney Olson? 17 MR. OLSON: Where is West Wisconsin 18 Avenue? 19 MR. CHERNOF: It's west of the river. 20 The area that we're really dealing with is west of 21 the river to 8th Street. 22 MR. OLSON: And the -- have either of 23 your organizations you're here on behalf of today 24 sent representatives to oppose other licenses in 25 this location? 97 1 MR. CHERNOF: We're not here to discuss 2 other applicants at other times. And I would 3 suggest to you that my work began last year. And 4 I would also suggest to you that all of the 5 discussions that we've had about the bars and 6 serving alcohol are really besides the point. 7 This is a strip club or a gentlemen's club, 8 whichever you choose to call it. It's a very 9 different use. 10 I also want to make it clear that this 11 objection is not on moral grounds, and I take it 12 at face value that Silk has a good reputation and 13 has no violations. The objection here is as to 14 the specific use in this location as being 15 deleterious to the revitalization efforts to the 16 surrounding area and totally out of sync with the 17 city's own plan. 18 MR. OLSON: Is a tavern at that location 19 of any kind out of sync with the city's plan? 20 MR. CHERNOF: Not necessarily. 21 MR. OLSON: Would a gentlemen's club 22 that didn't serve alcohol be out of sync with the 23 city's plan? 24 MR. CHERNOF: Yes. 25 MR. OLSON: What is it about the plan 98 1 that permits a tavern but not an entertainment 2 facility? 3 MR. CHERNOF: It's the specific kind of 4 entertainment facility at that location. This has 5 nothing to do with -- this has nothing to do with 6 morals. Other cities have located establishments 7 like this in entertainment districts specifically 8 designed for this sort of activity. That's not 9 what the city has envisioned at this location. It 10 will be harmful to property values and to the 11 interests of other property owners in the area and 12 will have a detrimental effect, we believe, on the 13 revitalization efforts. 14 MR. OLSON: So as far as the attitude of 15 the organizations that you represent and your 16 interpretation of the comprehensive plan, a jazz 17 cabaret with live entertainment and alcohol would 18 be acceptable at that location, but a gentlemen's 19 club with topless dancing and alcohol or without 20 alcohol would not be, correct? 21 MR. CHERNOF: It depends on the 22 situation. 23 Let me make it also clear that I'm not 24 representing the Greater Milwaukee Committee. I 25 was asked by the person on her behalf of the 99 1 Greater Milwaukee Committee to submit the letter 2 because she had to leave. 3 MR. OLSON: No further questions. 4 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 5 Next witness. 6 MS. KOSTER: Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, 7 Committee Members. Vanessa Koster, K-O-S-T-E-R, 8 Department of City Development, 809 North 9 Broadway, second floor. 10 The Department of City Development 11 opposes the license application for 730 North Old 12 World Third Street based on the downtown plan area 13 recommendations. 14 The downtown plan is 1 of 13 15 comprehensive area plans that together comprise 16 the whole city and provide more specific 17 recommendations for development and implementation 18 developed in association with local stakeholders, 19 area residents and the broader community. 20 An update to the downtown plan approved 21 by Common Council in 2010 established the 22 community's vision and land use policies for 23 downtown. The area is generally bounded by Walnut 24 and Pleasant and Lyons Street to the north; south 25 by the Menomonee River and Clybourn Street; and on 100 1 the east by Lincoln Memorial Drive; and on the 2 west by Interstate 43. 3 Within the 2012 downtown plan, there are 4 eight districts and eight catalytic projects. The 5 subject property is located in the downtown center 6 district and Wisconsin Avenue catalytic project 7 area. West Wisconsin Avenue is identified as a 8 retail shopping district. 9 I'll now introduce Gregory Patin who is 10 the project manager for the downtown plan to go 11 into the specific recommendations. 12 MR. PATIN: Hello. 13 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Please state your 14 name and address. 15 MR. PATIN: Gregory Patin, P-A-T-I-N, 16 Department of City Development, 809 North 17 Broadway, second floor. 18 MR. MAISTELMAN: Mr. Chairman, may I? 19 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney 20 Maistelman. 21 MR. MAISTELMAN: Can we ask questions of 22 the first witness before we get to the second 23 witness? 24 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Sure. Let's go 25 back. 101 1 Vanessa. 2 MR. MAISTELMAN: Is that okay? 3 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Sure. 4 MR. OLSON: Has the Department of 5 Development ever come to oppose any other liquor 6 licenses? 7 MS. KOSTER: I believe we have appeared 8 before the License Committee. 9 MR. OLSON: Which ones have you opposed 10 to? 11 MS. KOSTER: I don't know. I was not 12 here. 13 MR. OLSON: So you don't really know for 14 sure? 15 MS. KOSTER: I know there was at least 16 one other. 17 MR. OLSON: And are you familiar with 18 this downtown plan that you're talking about? 19 MS. KOSTER: Yes. 20 MR. OLSON: And is a tavern at that 21 location congruent with the downtown plan? 22 MS. KOSTER: At that location, the 23 tavern, it's activating; the windows are opened, 24 so there is pedestrian activity. 25 MR. OLSON: You lost me. Would a tavern 102 1 in that location be congruent with the downtown 2 plan? 3 MS. KOSTER: We're promoting retail 4 uses. We're looking for synergetic uses that draw 5 people, the daytime population there. 80 to 85 6 percent of the population is, that we're trying to 7 get retail uses, are business workers and area 8 residents. 9 MR. OLSON: So you're saying a tavern 10 would not be congruent with the downtown plan, 11 correct? 12 MS. KOSTER: At this location, yes. 13 MR. OLSON: So what's the building owner 14 supposed to do if nobody wants to open a retail 15 store in that place? Just let it be empty? 16 MS. KOSTER: Of course we don't want a 17 vacant building there, but we want uses that are 18 consistent with the downtown plan recommendations. 19 MR. OLSON: Would you rather have a 20 tavern than a vacant building? 21 MS. KOSTER: I'm not here to answer that 22 question regarding a tavern. 23 MR. OLSON: No further questions. 24 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 25 Now, is there anybody on the 103 1 committee -- okay. Thank you. 2 Mr. Patin. 3 MR. PATIN: Yes, Gregory Patin. I am 4 here to further expound on the comments that 5 Vanessa had put forth. 6 Specifically, the downtown plan -- and 7 the downtown plan, this is considered a catalytic 8 project. Every area of mine has a number of 9 catalytic projects; downtown has eight areas. 10 This was one that was very -- we, through a series 11 of a two-year process, community stakeholders, 12 whether it be the business organizations, 13 residents, corporations, you name it; it was a 14 large mix of people to come together to put 15 together an area plan. And this Wisconsin Avenue 16 corridor was elevated to an area that was of 17 particular concern. As people would understand, 18 there's a lot of challenges facing the Wisconsin 19 Avenue, and it was selected as a catalytic 20 project. But this plan, unlike a lot of areas 21 which talk about exclusions of things, this very 22 much, it talks about what are the purposes or what 23 uses are targeted to this area. This is an area 24 that's specifically -- it's looking to see if this 25 becomes a retail location. That is by no mistake. 104 1 It is a very intentional thing in the downtown 2 area plan. It specifically, on a number of pages, 3 identifies the shopping district, and it's looking 4 for uses that are to expand the market retail 5 offerings. 6 The other thing is, this is also on 7 what's considered a type-one street of the 8 downtown area. In other words, the street, that's 9 supposed to be intended to be a highly activated 10 street. And while, you know, the design of a 11 building for the intended use seems to not quite 12 comport with the plan of having a plan that 13 something is very open and active to the street. 14 And that is the -- that is what this area is 15 seeking; it's to see uses such as that to put in 16 that location. 17 By -- the plan also, by reference, 18 adopts the downtown business improvement 19 district's retail strategy plan. Some people will 20 be speaking to that, I think, in a few moments. 21 But just some of the major notations on that is 22 that the retail plan has found that the targeted 23 customers are 80 to 85 percent of the customers 24 that are targeted for downtown are local residents 25 to the area. And for the retail plan to work, it 105 1 has to have a good synergy mix of uses in the 2 area. And it's -- it continually discusses that 3 this should be a street orientated to that. So 4 this is, that is really a very clear direction 5 that this neighborhood should be taking according 6 to the plan that was approved by the Common 7 Council. 8 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Questions by 9 Committee? 10 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 11 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 12 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So it sounds to me like 13 I'm hearing two overlapping objections: one is 14 the use, and the other design? 15 MR. PATIN: Yes, I'm aware of the actual 16 design, you know, the -- 17 ALDERMAN KOVAC: But I mean -- 18 MR. PATIN: -- from what was stated 19 earlier in testimony. 20 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Right. I mean, I 21 know -- so there's an issue of wanting to 22 prioritize catalytic retail in this area? 23 MR. PATIN: Correct. 24 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Although, currently 25 there is a tavern there, but that's a tavern with 106 1 windows and, you know, an old-car theme that you 2 can look in now. 3 So part of -- I know the Park East plan 4 specifically calls for transparency or activated 5 windows, activated the street, which is really 6 just a fancy way to say we want windows as big as 7 possible on the street level. That's generally 8 something we're open for as part of our downtown 9 street life. 10 MR. PATIN: Yes, the plan specifically 11 speaks to a non-tinted glazing that looks in on 12 stores, has spaces on the inside that activates 13 the street; basically, having eyes on the street. 14 So that activation that sets a place is very 15 important as part of the downtown. 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And what is it about 17 retail that is advantageous? 18 MR. PATIN: Well, through the collection 19 of our community meetings, there was a strong 20 desire that Wisconsin Avenue be -- the strategy is 21 that this be a retail corridor. And this is 22 thought of as a corridor. It's not just -- it's 23 Wisconsin Avenue and the block on either side. So 24 it's not an extreme linear -- it's just like you 25 think of as a corridor, whether it be this 107 1 corridor or any other street in the city, it 2 usually is a block or so on either side. 3 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And it is possible to 4 have entertainment uses to complement retail, 5 correct? 6 MR. PATIN: Correct. 7 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And is it the judgment 8 from the department that this is a proposed 9 entertainment use that will complement nearby 10 retail? 11 MR. PATIN: No, we're not -- the uses 12 that are, you know, that are focused on both 13 daytime and nighttime uses, and the way they 14 interact with business on the street. 15 The downtown retail strategy speaks 16 specifically to a very clear mix of retail uses 17 that blend well together. The area does allow for 18 restaurants and taverns and a wide mix of uses, 19 but it's very important of how each one fits in 20 with that plan. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And it's important not 22 to have dead zones -- 23 MR. PATIN: Correct. 24 ALDERMAN KOVAC: -- in areas where we're 25 trying to encourage pedestrian activity. 108 1 MR. PATIN: Yes. Dead zones are 2 detrimental. 3 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 4 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 5 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Sir, just for my own 6 clarity, the downtown plan that Ms. Koster spoke 7 of, that was a two-year-old plan? 8 MR. PATIN: Correct. 9 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Is the retail plan 10 that you mentioned, is that the same -- 11 MR. PATIN: Yes. 12 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: They came about at the 13 same time? 14 MR. PATIN: Yes. They came about at the 15 same time. The BID had -- the downtown BID had a 16 concurrent effort, and it was done that way on 17 purpose so that the downtown plan and the retail 18 strategy pursued by the BID are in sync. There is 19 a very distinct in-sync effort. And that's been 20 the stakeholders, inline with the stakeholders and 21 downtown property owners, residents. 22 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney Olson. 23 MR. OLSON: Does the gentlemen's club, 24 Silk, planned for this location conform with the 25 current zoning regulations? 109 1 MR. PATIN: Yes, it does. 2 MR. OLSON: And I take -- do you agree 3 with the previous witness that a tavern at this 4 location would not be congruent with the downtown 5 plan? 6 MR. PATIN: It would be on a 7 case-by-case basis. It would be -- the plan of 8 operation, how interactive it is with the street, 9 those are important factors. 10 MR. OLSON: Were those factors evaluated 11 when your department decided not to oppose 12 licensure for Rusty's? 13 MR. PATIN: Rusty's was not an issue 14 that came up before us. There was not a 15 significant investment. This, I believe, has a 16 large investment of change. 17 MR. OLSON: Why did this establishment 18 come to the attention of your department and 19 Rusty's did not come to the attention of your 20 department? 21 MR. PATIN: This use, as earlier stated 22 by the members of your group, this is a 23 significant investment to further solidify a use 24 which is -- doesn't necessarily comport with the 25 current plan. And it really, it draws attention 110 1 to that. The fact that this is taking something 2 that does not fit in and is making it more -- 3 solidifying it in the location, you might say, 4 with such an extensive investment. 5 MR. OLSON: You've got a -- has your 6 department made a determination as to whether 7 Rusty's is congruent with the downtown plan? 8 MR. PATIN: I have no knowledge of that. 9 MR. OLSON: Has your department made a 10 determination as to whether it prefers Rusty's 11 over Silk? 12 MR. PATIN: The issue before us is Silk; 13 it's not Rusty's. 14 MR. OLSON: But you understand that's 15 the issue before this committee is Rusty's or 16 Silk, because if they don't approve Silk, it's 17 going to continue as Rusty's, right? 18 MR. PATIN: Yes, it will. 19 MR. OLSON: If it's not Silk or some 20 retail establishment, it's not Silk or Victoria's 21 Secret; it's Silk or Rusty's? 22 MR. PATIN: Correct. 23 MR. OLSON: No further questions. 24 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 25 Next witness. Please state your name 111 1 and address for the record. 2 MR. MATHESON: My name is John Matheson. 3 I'm with Siegel-Gallagher Management Company, 4 located at 700 North Water Street in downtown 5 Milwaukee. We are the managing agent for the 6 Grand Wisconsin Apartments at 720 North Water 7 Street directly south and adjacent to the proposed 8 applicant's location. 9 I think most people here know the 10 history of the building. For many, many years 11 this beautiful historic building was either vacant 12 or close to vacant and in disrepair. It was 13 purchased and then renovated starting in about 14 2005, completing most of those renovations in 15 2007; struggled with occupancy then because of the 16 incident that happened at Martini Mike's. That 17 was a significant issue to overcome. 18 However, through our work beginning 19 about a year ago or so, we were able to bring 20 occupancy up to now a full occupancy and increase 21 rents. We're now about 99 percent occupied and 22 rent has been raised several times because it has 23 become a very popular location. 24 I would like to submit for the committee 25 a petition that the property manager had out on 112 1 the counter when she was there, and 93 of the unit 2 owners of the 108 signed this petition opposing -- 3 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Sir, the committee 4 has a longstanding -- 5 MR. MAISTELMAN: Thank you. 6 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: -- practice of not 7 accepting petitions because they're hearsay. 8 MR. MATHESON: Okay. And I think that 9 they were also e-mailed. 10 But, you know, the point is, this 11 building has 60 percent, approximately, young 12 professionals; about 20 percent middle age; 20 13 percent Marquette grad students. And about 45 14 percent of the occupants of the building, and 15 there's about 250 occupants that are women. 16 Now, the issue that we have with this 17 use is that it's taking the worst situations that 18 a bar would have and making it even worse by 19 adding the potential issues of prostitution, of 20 the increased staff that operates this. And that 21 staff will have to be smoking outside, including 22 the dancers; the potential of drug use; and 23 increased traffic. 24 Furthermore, the -- Rusty's, even though 25 not a great use, it is still at least a use that 113 1 people in the community will go to. Residents of 2 the Grand Wisconsin, go to Rusty's. The use that 3 is being proposed right now would likely not be a 4 destination for most people at Grand Wisconsin, in 5 fact, they are clearly opposed to it. And that's 6 a major reason why we are opposed to it. We feel 7 that by putting this in here will significantly 8 impact the ability to rent the Grand Wisconsin and 9 impact the value of the building therefore. And 10 we're extremely concerned about it. 11 The issue is not necessarily whether a 12 strip club should be or could be downtown. I 13 think that most people can accept that. And the 14 other locations of the strip club are not anything 15 like what this location would be. 16 I really think that the owners of this 17 proposed strip club are good businessmen. As a 18 matter a fact, that's what worries us the most 19 about this is that they are very good businessmen, 20 and they plan on getting people in those seats in 21 there, and it's going to be busy. 22 So again the -- and one other point is 23 as well, many of the people will be probably 24 coming from out of the area. And that is going to 25 lead to a lot of traffic congestion. The valet -- 114 1 and most of us have been familiar with valet 2 parking -- you get stacks of cars waiting for 3 valets, which will be directly in front of our 4 building. That is not something that we want to 5 have happen; it's already a congested area. 6 That's going to be a major concern that we have. 7 As I mentioned, about 125 women have 8 their home, their front door, 25 feet from where 9 this proposed location is going to be. So I ask 10 any of you committee members that have daughters 11 or wives, how you would feel about them walking in 12 and out of their home every day, every night, late 13 at night, 2:00 in the morning, past what this club 14 will be bringing. That's why we oppose this. 15 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 16 Committee? 17 Questions by Attorney Olson? 18 MR. OLSON: If the dancers at Silk were 19 to wear bathing suits, would that change your 20 opinion on the impact on the neighborhood? 21 MR. MATHESON: I don't really -- I don't 22 think it matters nor do I care what they wear 23 inside the building. I don't think that really is 24 what my concern is. 25 MR. OLSON: If there were a retail store 115 1 at this location, where would the shoppers park? 2 MR. MATHESON: Well, there is parking 3 ramps in the area. And right now, what -- it's a 4 neighborhood where many people get there by foot. 5 Currently, Rusty's, I think, a great number of the 6 people that go there are neighborhood people that 7 go there by foot, and so the impact on the parking 8 congestion is minimal. 9 MR. OLSON: You said that you 10 acknowledge that the Silk people are good 11 businessmen. So we could give them a little 12 credit for having an accurate business plan and 13 catering to traveling out-of-town businessmen who 14 are in Milwaukee by airplane. That should also 15 have minimal car traffic impact on this 16 establishment, right? 17 MR. MATHESON: Well, there would be -- I 18 disagree that there's just going to be cab traffic 19 or car. The fact is, you can target a certain 20 demographic, which has been brought up before. I 21 think the reality is, everyone is going to know 22 what is in this location. Whether you put that 23 it's a strip bar or not, you're going to know. 24 And there's going to be a lot of locals going in 25 there, not people that can walk there; people that 116 1 have to drive. And I think that is going to be an 2 impact on traffic and an impact on parking and 3 congestion in front of the location. I think if 4 you get more than one or two cars stacked up to 5 valet, you're already in front of our building, 6 right in front of the Grand Wisconsin. 7 MR. OLSON: Is there parking along that 8 street? 9 MR. MATHESON: There is limited parking 10 along the street. 11 MR. OLSON: No further questions. 12 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 13 Attorney Maistelman. 14 MR. MAISTELMAN: I have a point of 15 inquiry. I've received from Tom that DNS has a 16 hold, the Health Department has a hold. We've 17 heard from DCD. I don't have anything in my file; 18 is there anything in the city's file from DPW 19 about their concerns with the plan of operation as 20 it relates to traffic and parking? 21 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Well, do we -- 22 LICENSE DIVISION: None that I'm aware 23 of. 24 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Does DPW make it 25 common practice to submit items relating to 117 1 traffic and parking to the licensing committee? 2 LICENSE DIVISION: No, they do not. 3 MR. MAISTELMAN: Well, I would just 4 presume that they would make the same practice as 5 DCD does. 6 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: It's a different 7 department, different rules, so -- 8 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 9 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: -- we'll just have 10 to stick with DCD and their findings. 11 Alderman Kovac. 12 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And I'll just say this, 13 I mean, I certainly rely greatly on the advice and 14 expertise of all city departments, and 15 particularly the City Development and Public 16 Works, but I don't base my decisions on them, or 17 I'm not bound by what they say. It's their 18 advice. And frankly, this witness' testimony 19 about traffic -- I'm only speaking for myself, but 20 I don't mind that there's more traffic downtown. 21 I think that's one of the things we're planning 22 for. 23 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Next 24 witness. 25 State your name and address for the 118 1 record. 2 MR. WORBLESKI: Dan Worbleski 1234 North 3 10th Street, 3rd Floor, Milwaukee. 4 I am the vice president at Colliers 5 International here in Milwaukee, a commercial real 6 estate firm. I specialize in office brokerage and 7 the representation of both tenants and landlords 8 throughout the downtown market. We represent over 9 three million square feet of office space downtown 10 of which one million square feet is west of the 11 river. 12 I just want to state a few facts in 13 terms of existing market conditions downtown as 14 far as office space goes. Currently, our overall 15 office vacancy rate downtown is just under 20 16 percent. East of the river, that vacancy rate is 17 14 percent; west of the river that vacancy rate is 18 31 percent. Huge discrepancy between the two 19 markets. We are doing a great deal of work with 20 our west-of-the-river tenants, businessowners, 21 building owners and clients along with the 22 business associations that here today to improve 23 that Westown District and make it more marketable 24 to corporations and talented business individuals 25 to come to this market. 119 1 From my perspective and my opinion as a 2 real estate professional, I think the approval of 3 this license will have a negative impact on the 4 overall marketability of the Westown market. From 5 a business development standpoint with 6 corporations, I think that it will impair 7 surrounding vacancies even further and have the 8 potential to reduce rental rates, which will in 9 turn reduce overall property values west of the 10 river. 11 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Questions by 12 Committee? 13 Questions by Attorney Olson? 14 MR. OLSON: And it's the nature of the 15 entertainment that your organization objects to; 16 you don't object to a tavern at that location, I 17 take it? 18 MR. WORBLESKI: We do not. 19 MR. OLSON: You think that topless 20 dancing at that location sends the wrong message 21 to prospective tenants? 22 MR. WORBLESKI: I think that from a real 23 estate perspective and the marketing of that area, 24 perception goes a long way with businessowners, 25 and I think it's the wrong perception for that 120 1 area. 2 MR. OLSON: Perception being that there 3 are topless dancers -- 4 MR. WORBLESKI: Right. 5 MR. OLSON: -- dancing in the bar? 6 MR. WORBLESKI: Mm mm. 7 MR. OLSON: No further questions. 8 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 9 How many people still have to testify? 10 Okay, we're just going to take a quick ten-minute 11 break, and we'll reconvene and finish this. Time 12 right now is 2:40. 13 (Recess taken.) 14 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: The licensing 15 committee will now resume. Time is 3:00. 16 Okay, next witness. State your name and 17 address. 18 MR. HENNESSY: My name is John Hennessy. 19 I own the St. James Court Apartments, 825-31 West 20 Wisconsin Avenue, and I've been there since 1994. 21 We did a historic renovation of that building. 22 I'm on the Westown Association board, and I chair 23 the Economic Development Committee. And we also 24 study what is takes to regenerate areas. 25 And what I want to say is that we have a 121 1 downtown plan, we have design guidelines for the 2 Westown Association. And we know what we're 3 looking for. We're starting to make some good 4 progress on that, get some young people into the 5 area starting businesses. We're starting to get 6 good apartment buildings like the one at 720 North 7 Old World Third Street and good people living in 8 the area. And we want to continue to look -- and 9 good businesses, good employers. We're working on 10 improving our public transportation. And all of 11 those things are what I would call linkages. And 12 we want to tie our endeavors, our development 13 efforts, into good linkages, positive linkages. 14 And I see this establishment is basically not 15 following the downtown plan, not following the 16 design guidelines. And, yes, it is a linkage, but 17 it's a negative linkage that's going to sabotage 18 the efforts that we're making to improve the 19 economy of our area. 20 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Questions by 21 Committee? 22 Questions by Attorney Olson? 23 MR. OLSON: Have you -- have you or your 24 organization made a determination as to whether 25 Silk would be less congruent with the downtown 122 1 plan than a tavern such as Rusty's that's there 2 now? 3 MR. HENNESSY: My understanding of 4 Rusty's is it's kind of a little neighborhood 5 tavern and some of the people in the area use it. 6 I think places that promote the spirit of 7 community are good for a neighborhood. I don't 8 think a place that, you know, is kind of all 9 closed up except for one sign, making you think 10 that maybe something funny is going on inside, is 11 welcoming and promotes the spirit of communities. 12 And, yes, I analyze situations all of 13 the time because that's what I do for a living is 14 neighborhood development, trying to figure out how 15 to make areas better. 16 MR. OLSON: And are you just giving your 17 personal opinion now, or are you talking about the 18 official downtown plan? 19 MR. HENNESSY: Well, I've read the 20 downtown plan, I've participated in the downtown 21 plan, I've participated in other plans. 22 MR. OLSON: Does the downtown -- 23 MR. HENNESSY: And I'm employed as a 24 consultant to do these types of plans. 25 MR. OLSON: Does the downtown plan 123 1 really say that a tavern at that location is more 2 congruent with the downtown plan than a 3 gentlemen's club? 4 MR. HENNESSY: The downtown plan -- 5 well, you -- I think you've heard what the city 6 planners had to say. 7 MR. OLSON: They said -- 8 MR. HENNESSY: So I would -- 9 MR. OLSON: They said a tavern is not 10 congruent with the downtown plan. 11 MR. HENNESSY: I would echo their words. 12 They're looking for business and positive -- 13 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 14 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair, I'd like to 15 interrupt too, a point of clarity, because that 16 was an initial comment in response to your 17 question from one of our city planners. I asked a 18 series of follow-up questions separating issues of 19 use from design. And I think when you overlap the 20 design requirements with the use requirements, you 21 get a fuller answer to your question about the 22 difference between a tavern and what's proposed 23 here, and does it fit downtown, does that make 24 sense? You know -- 25 MR. OLSON: Are you asking -- 124 1 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Yeah, I'm asking you if 2 what I said makes sense because I asked the 3 follow-up question to your original question. 4 MR. OLSON: I do understand what you 5 said. 6 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Okay. 7 MR. OLSON: I have no further questions. 8 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 9 Next witness. Please state your name 10 and address for the record. 11 MS. GERD: My name is Kate Gerd. And I 12 represent the Spice House on 1031 North Old World 13 Third Street. 14 And I'd like to first start off saying 15 that I oppose the license for this establishment. 16 Talking about retail in the area, as we have been, 17 we've been in business since 1957, and about 30 of 18 those years have been on Old World Third Street in 19 various locations, but within those two blocks of 20 where we currently are. We have recently 21 purchased the building, or my brother has 22 purchased the building, and have renovated to 23 historic standards. And we really feel that what 24 we need as a business as a retailer is more retail 25 in our area. 125 1 Now, being on Third Street for 30 years, 2 you see a lot come and go. And recently, with the 3 economy, we've seen a lot more retail, as we can 4 see at Grand Avenue, leaving the city. So in 5 order to revitalize the type of things that are 6 necessary in a downtown area, not only bars and 7 restaurants, but retail is necessary in a downtown 8 area. And how do we do this but get other 9 businesses that are complementary to retail? A 10 strip club, unfortunately, is not complementary to 11 retail. I would not say that my demographic is 12 the same demographic that would be visiting Silk. 13 Therefore, I do object as a retail manager and 14 representative, that this be not awarded. Thank 15 you. 16 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Questions by 17 Committee? 18 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 19 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 20 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: You stated that your 21 business has been at this location for 30 -- or 22 about this location for 30 years? 23 MS. GERD: Not at the current location, 24 but on Third Street. We've been in three 25 different locations on Third Street. 126 1 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: With -- again, just 2 within one or two blocks of where you are, right? 3 MS. GERD: Yes. 4 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Okay. Are you aware 5 that the City of Milwaukee downtown at one time 6 supported three or four strip clubs, field 7 palaces, gentlemen's clubs, sportsmen's clubs; 8 call them what you want to call them? 9 MS. GERD: No, I'm not. 10 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Okay. Had you ever 11 had any encounters with any of the clients, to the 12 best of your knowledge, from any of those 13 establishments that I just mentioned? 14 MS. GERD: I do not have knowledge that 15 I've encountered them, no. 16 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. 17 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney Olson. 18 MR. OLSON: There are some other liquor 19 license establishments in the immediate facility 20 of your shop, are there not? 21 MS. GERD: Yes, there are. In fact, 22 some that you've heard today. 23 MR. OLSON: As a matter of fact, a place 24 called Tutto that's very close to your business. 25 They were on the agenda of this committee today 127 1 with respect to their license. Did you appear and 2 oppose their license? 3 MS. GERD: No, we did not, because we 4 work very closely with Tutto. And Tutto does not 5 have the same type of entertainment as is proposed 6 here right now. 7 MR. OLSON: And the Suit place, S-U-I-T, 8 is -- 9 MS. GERD: And they were here, which I 10 was here also. 11 MR. OLSON: They were on the committee's 12 agenda today with respect to their liquor license, 13 and you did not oppose their license, I take it? 14 MS. GERD: Again, the entertainment is 15 totally different. 16 MR. OLSON: And by "the entertainment," 17 you're referring to the topless dancing? 18 MS. GERD: Correct. 19 MR. OLSON: One of the -- one of the 20 factors that you want for a successful retail 21 environment in a neighborhood is some people with 22 some disposable income in that neighborhood, 23 right? 24 MS. GERD: That's correct. 25 MR. OLSON: Do you dispute that a 128 1 high-end gentlemen's club would attract people 2 with disposable income to the neighborhood? 3 MS. GERD: No, I do not. But it's not 4 the same demographic as what we would attract. 5 We're not going to have families coming into our 6 store and then going over to a gentlemen's club. 7 MR. OLSON: If they buy your spices, you 8 don't care whether they bring the kids or not, I 9 take it? 10 MS. GERD: Families mean not necessarily 11 children, okay. We have many generations of 12 families that come in: mothers, daughters, 13 fathers. Mother's Day was one of our biggest 14 days. Many families, not necessarily just with 15 children, but I'm saying families that come into 16 our store are not going to be the same people that 17 are going to a gentlemen's club, nor is it -- 18 would they want to go past, or would I think they 19 would want to go past a gentlemen's club that's 20 all closed up. You go down the block to Suit, 21 they do have large windows with curtains across 22 them, but a lot of the times, they're open. So 23 during the daytime, daytime economy can walk past 24 there and see what's going on in there. With a 25 gentlemen's club, it would be totally different. 129 1 Many of our customers come from a lot of the 2 hotels in the area, and I feel that they will be 3 walking past a gentlemen's club. And again, it's 4 not something that I think families would like to 5 walk past. 6 MR. OLSON: Because they'd be 7 embarrassed to think about the nature of the 8 entertainment going on inside? 9 MS. GERD: Yes. 10 MR. OLSON: How far from the location, 11 of the proposed location of Silk would you be? 12 MS. GERD: We're 1031, and what is the 13 address? 14 MR. OLSON: 730. 15 MS. GERD: So about four blocks. 16 MR. OLSON: No further questions. 17 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 18 Next witness. Please state your name 19 and address for the record. 20 MS. CALLIES: Stacie Callies, 21 C-A-L-L-I-E-S, 224 East Mason Street, Milwaukee, 22 Wisconsin 53202. I am the executive director of 23 the Westown Association, which is the downtown 24 neighborhood association representing the area 25 west of the river where this application is. 130 1 The Westown Association Board of 2 Directors has voted to oppose Six Star Holdings', 3 LLC, application for a Class B Tavern License and 4 Public Entertainment License at this location. 5 And that is consistent with their opposition 6 previously in September of 2010 when they last 7 applied. 8 And that opposition is based on a few 9 factors: the first factor is the use. A 10 gentlemen's club is inappropriate for this 11 location, which falls within an area in the 12 central business district's traditional commercial 13 and retail design; not an entertainment district. 14 In fact, as we heard, it's does not -- it is not 15 congruent with the downtown plan or the downtown 16 storefront retail plan as well. 17 This use will cause negative secondary 18 impacts to the neighboring commercial and 19 residential properties, which owners have invested 20 hundreds of millions of dollars in the Westown 21 neighborhood, which you've also heard has 22 struggled with historical negative perceptions. 23 The negative impacts will mean lower property 24 values, impacts on the city tax base as well as 25 the owners' ability to recruit and retain people 131 1 in commercial and residential tenants. 2 But since the last application in 2010, 3 I think there has been a very organized 4 broad-based community effort to revitalize West 5 Wisconsin Avenue, which the Westown Association 6 has been a part of. As you heard from the West 7 Wisconsin Avenue task force appointed by the 8 mayor, that was the first step in that direction, 9 but the Westown Association has -- was asked by 10 Mr. Chernof to put together a marketing and events 11 group, stakeholders, which has been very organized 12 and successful thus far, and last Friday, had 13 their first event program and activated West 14 Wisconsin Avenue. And it was in the city-owned 15 parking lot on Fourth and Wisconsin at which the 16 Pabst Theater Foundation and Milwaukee 17 participants in the group put on a Brewers 18 tailgate party, which was really successful. And 19 they plan to also do a bridge opening party when 20 the Wisconsin Avenue bridge is done. 21 And then also, we have the Grand Theater 22 Ticket Kiosk Visitor Newcomer Center, which is 23 going to be opening next month. All small steps 24 in the right direction on West Wisconsin Avenue. 25 And we really feel that a gentlemen's club will 132 1 only hurt this momentum. So for those reasons, we 2 ask you to deny this license. 3 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Questions by 4 Committee? 5 Attorney Olson. 6 MR. OLSON: Your organization is not all 7 that much in favor of the free market determining 8 what land uses go where in west Milwaukee, I take 9 it? 10 MS. CALLIES: They're there to represent 11 stakeholders in the neighborhood to make the best 12 decision necessary, and they feel this is 13 inappropriate, as I stated. 14 MR. OLSON: Because of the nature of the 15 entertainment program? 16 MS. CALLIES: Because of its negative 17 secondary impact and inappropriate use. 18 MR. OLSON: "Inappropriate use" being 19 topless dancing? 20 MS. CALLIES: At this location, yes. 21 MR. OLSON: And it's bad here, but it 22 would be okay someplace else? 23 MS. CALLIES: As I stated, this is a 24 commercial district with residents and commercial 25 space all around, millions of dollars in 133 1 investment. So yes, this is not the right place 2 for it. 3 MR. OLSON: Why not? 4 MS. CALLIES: As I stated, secondary 5 negative impacts, impact on business recruitment, 6 impact on property values, impact on the retaining 7 of commercial tenants. 8 MR. OLSON: Do you have any real 9 evidence that any of those things are factors when 10 you're dealing with a high-end gentlemen's club 11 that doesn't have disorderly fights, doesn't have 12 noise and parking problems, doesn't have litter? 13 MS. CALLIES: It's all based on the 14 history and professionalism of the board of 15 directors who are major businesspeople in the 16 downtown area. So it's all their professional -- 17 MR. OLSON: It's their opinion? 18 MS. CALLIES: Correct. As everyone's 19 was here today. 20 MR. OLSON: No further questions. 21 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Next witness. 22 State your name and address for the record. 23 MS. NICOLS: Good afternoon. Beth 24 Nicols. I reside at 930 East Lyon Street, 25 downtown Milwaukee. I also work in downtown 134 1 Milwaukee. I serve as the executive director of 2 the Milwaukee Downtown Business Improvement 3 District. That organization has been in existence 4 for 14 years. And we represent the commercial 5 property owners in downtown Milwaukee with a 6 property value of over $2 billion and about 500 7 commercial properties. 8 I'm here today to state our board's 9 objection to this use at this particular location 10 for a variety of reasons: one being that it's a 11 nonconforming use within the downtown business 12 district's master plan, as well as it's a 13 nonconforming use and a non-targeted use in our 14 retail recruitment strategy for this particular 15 area. 16 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Questions by 17 Committee? 18 Questions by Attorney Olson? Questions? 19 MR. OLSON: Your understanding is that 20 this is a permitted use though under current 21 zoning law, right? 22 MS. NICOLS: Correct. 23 MR. OLSON: And the reason you're 24 opposing it is because of the nature of the 25 entertainment programming they plan to offer? 135 1 MS. NICOLS: The reason I'm opposing it 2 is because it's a nonconforming use outlined by 3 our downtown master plan. 4 MR. OLSON: What makes it not -- 5 MS. NICOLS: Just as your industry does 6 research; we do research as it relates to 7 investments in our community. 8 MR. OLSON: What makes it a 9 nonconforming use is the nature of the 10 entertainment program, correct? 11 MS. NICOLS: It's not a retail use. 12 MR. OLSON: Oh, so any kind of tavern at 13 that location is incongruent with your plan? 14 MS. NICOLS: It would be considered a 15 nonconforming use there. 16 MR. OLSON: Has your board taken a 17 formal position opposing a liquor license 18 continuation for Rusty's? 19 MS. NICOLS: Our board met with Rusty's 20 and the property owner indicating to them that it 21 was a nonconforming use and we preferred to have a 22 retail there. That would be consistent with the 23 downtown master plan. We met with them, they 24 assured us that they were going to open a location 25 that, although it would be a nonconforming use, 136 1 they would be sensitive to the fact that we were 2 looking for establishments that would be engaged 3 in activities that would be positive and open to 4 the street that would be conducive to pedestrian 5 activity. So we took a position that we would 6 remain neutral as Rusty's is operating. And so 7 I'm not certain what our position would be as we 8 move forward. 9 MR. OLSON: No further questions, 10 thanks. 11 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 12 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 13 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Ms. Nicols, the -- and 14 I recall your group's opposition also to Rusty's, 15 although it was tempered by what I believe you 16 just stated. Could you go into a little more 17 detail about the difference between Rusty's and 18 this proposal and why you're more opposed to this 19 one? 20 MS. NICOLS: Well, our preference is 21 always going to be street-front retail area. And 22 we have investors and brokers who believe we have 23 a market to sustain it. Our marketplace is 24 really, quite frankly, residents who live in this 25 community. And we are downtown, it's residents 137 1 who live within a one-and-a-half square mile, as 2 well as our daytime workforce population of 82,000 3 people. 4 We're huge supporters of the 5 entertainment districts. I want that to be 6 included in the record. We have focused on 7 responsible nighttime economy. We recognize how 8 significant that is in terms of economic impact in 9 the city. At this particular location, yes, we 10 believed that Rusty's was going to be activated. 11 We trusted them. We toured the facility. We met 12 with the operator. They told us they would serve 13 lunch and dinner, and that at some point, they 14 would engage and be open to the sidewalk. And I'm 15 told that lunch is coming down the pike soon. I 16 hope that that's the case. 17 This use is much different than a 18 restaurant and bar that is engaging the 19 pedestrians. And they stated, quite frankly, that 20 it would be discrete and very not noticeable. So 21 when you're walking past a dead space, if you 22 will, with minimal signage; windows not open, I 23 would think there would be some illegal activity 24 -- or that would be illegal with this type of use. 25 That does not conform to what we are striving for 138 1 in the revitalization of downtown. 2 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So the activation and 3 the engagement in the -- especially the facade on 4 the sidewalk -- 5 MS. NICOLS: It's critical. It's 6 critical. 7 ALDERMAN KOVAC: -- the design. Thank 8 you. 9 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Mr. Chair. 10 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chair. 11 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Perez, 12 then Alderman Dudzik. 13 ALDERMAN PEREZ: You mentioned research, 14 could you just elaborate on citing it? Is it just 15 a survey you take amongst the downtown area? Or 16 just talk a little bit about the research that 17 shapes your opinion. 18 MS. NICOLS: On our nighttime economy, 19 or on our economic development? 20 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Nighttime. 21 MS. NICOLS: Okay. On our nighttime 22 economy, our organization for two years has now 23 been involved in engaging the nighttime economy. 24 We recognize that Gallup and Knight just did a 25 study called Soul of the City where young emerging 139 1 professionals, Millennials, Boomers, Xers, want to 2 be in communities where they feel connected to the 3 community and engaged in the community. Our 4 nighttime economy in Milwaukee is thriving and 5 doing phenomenally well. We have some of the best 6 operators, I think, in the country here. And our 7 research supports that Milwaukeeans, a lot of 8 people who live in downtown Milwaukee, are 9 extremely supportive of that nighttime economy. 10 As people have referenced, we have local bars and 11 taverns that are engaging. They care about the 12 community. They're involved in some of our 13 organizations. They are focused on long-term 14 economic prosperity for downtown. 15 The research comes from an organization 16 called the Responsible Hospitality Institute, but 17 then locally, we engaged hundreds of folks, not 18 only downtown Milwaukee, but those customers 19 citywide, who told us how important the nighttime 20 economy was to them and how important it was for 21 them to be engaged in the community. So that 22 research comes from a national organization, RHI, 23 and also comes from our focus groups over about an 24 18-month period of time here. 25 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Attorney 140 1 Olson. 2 MR. OLSON: Are all of the 150 liquor 3 licensees within a one-mile radius of this 4 location nonconforming? 5 MS. NICOLS: No, they are not, sir. We 6 have several very successful and actively engaged 7 entertainment districts in downtown Milwaukee. 8 This is not an entertainment district; this is an 9 office, retail and residential neighborhood. This 10 use is probably better suited at a different 11 location. 12 MR. OLSON: There are many, many 13 nonconforming bars though under your plan, are 14 there not? 15 MS. NICOLS: Yes, there are. 16 MR. OLSON: And when was the last time 17 you appeared before this committee to oppose 18 licensure for one of them? 19 MS. NICOLS: Probably Mikie's or Club 20 618. There have been many. 21 MR. OLSON: When was that? 22 MS. NICOLS: I'm not -- I don't recall 23 the dates, sorry. 24 MR. OLSON: Has Mikie's had any negative 25 effects? 141 1 MS. NICOLS: Martini Mike's. 2 MR. OLSON: I thought you said Mikie's. 3 MS. NICOLS: I meant, Martini Mike's. 4 Thank you for the clarification, John. 5 MR. OLSON: No further questions. 6 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 7 State your name and address for the 8 record. Okay. We've got some papers here. 9 MS. TOMCZYK: Handouts. My name is 10 Debbie Tomczyk, 1000 North Water Street, Reinhart, 11 Boerner. And our firm represents Milwaukee 12 downtown, so my comments are a follow-up to 13 Ms. Nicols' comments on behalf of the downtown 14 management district, Business Improvement District 15 21. 16 I'm going to reference some of these 17 materials. I may not reference all of them 18 because I know it's been a long day already, but 19 we're happy to provide any follow-up comments. 20 First of all, I'd like to thank the 21 committee, and I'd like to thank the council, and 22 I'd like to thank the city staff who worked 23 really, really hard with the Responsible 24 Hospitality Institute initiatives of the BID. We 25 now have more tools at our disposal. I mean, 142 1 you've done a great job in evaluating licenses all 2 along, but now we also have some ordinance changes 3 that have been implemented relatively recently, 4 and they give us a greater focus on the secondary 5 impacts of businesses like this. So we applaud 6 those efforts, and we look forward to being able 7 to implement those going forward in this 8 application and others that get evaluated. 9 Again, we don't oppose, carte blanche, 10 this type of use. We oppose this use at this 11 location in this key retail, residential and 12 commercial corridor. It is not off the beaten 13 path. It's not Silver Spring. This is the heart 14 of our downtown, which traditionally has been, 15 according to the downtown plans, the original 16 storefront retail district of downtown, and we'd 17 like to see that established again. And we're 18 making a lot of investments in making that occur 19 in the future. You've heard from the city 20 planners and others about the importance of this 21 in we're to stick with the downtown master plan, 22 and in particular, with the downtown street-front 23 retail strategy, which again, is funded by the BID 24 as well as the Responsible Hospitality Initiative. 25 The Downtown BID has invested with the 143 1 city. We actually partner $3, city dollars, for 2 every one of downtown management district dollar. 3 On our retail recruiting program, which is 4 actually a white box grant program, we try to 5 enliven the street-front retail in this key 6 corridor, and West Wisconsin Avenue is a focus of 7 that project. 8 You've heard from Steve Chernof already 9 about the West Wisconsin Avenue Task Force. And 10 again, in partnership with them, the city, 11 Westown, we've invested in the Downtown Visitor 12 and Newcomer Information Center, which is just 13 doors away from this proposed establishment. 14 I have to say, I'm a little confused 15 about the proposal because it's changed a little 16 bit. We saw in the application, and we reviewed 17 the application, to see a proposal of, I think it 18 was 10 percent revenue from food, 30 percent from 19 other. Then today, that was clarified or changed, 20 and I think there was a different percentage 21 mentioned. There was also a different percentage 22 of patrons that were mentioned. The application 23 indicated 50 to 100 customers were expected on a 24 weekday; now we're hearing it's more like 100 to 25 120. Those types of changes are confusing, and I 144 1 think it would be nice to have that stuff 2 clarified and make sure that the record is clear. 3 And it also makes us question the care of which 4 the application was prepared. 5 One of the items that's in your 6 supplemental that I provided, in addition to the 7 downtown plan that you've heard referenced, is the 8 Institute of Transportation Engineers study. 9 Institute of Transportation Engineers are what 10 most retailers use to try to estimate what type of 11 patronage they can expect for their 12 establishments. And I readily admit this may not 13 be a perfect parallel, but the ITE's 14 transportation manual for this type of 15 establishment or a drinking place that's a similar 16 size, 11,250 square feet, would not generate 17 between 50 and 100 patrons per day; it would 18 actually generate 175 trips per hour on a peak 19 day. So I question how those two numbers tend to 20 jive. At least the Institute of Transportation 21 Engineers' numbers call for a much higher density. 22 And our fear is that the application that has been 23 submitted, the police plans, the security plans, 24 the parking and transportation plans that have 25 been provided, were based on numbers that, first 145 1 of all, seem to be changing a little bit, and 2 second of all, may not reflect what the rest of 3 the retail industry tends to see. 4 One of the keys from the Responsible 5 Hospitality Institute initiative that we were part 6 of was Milwaukee downtown was a critical nature of 7 healthy stakeholder relationships. You've heard a 8 lot from stakeholders today. And unfortunately, 9 we didn't have this dialog before; there wasn't an 10 outreach to the community. I think we've heard -- 11 I know there are maybe a couple of folks yet to 12 come that may feel differently, but by and large, 13 all of the speakers today have indicated concerns 14 about how this establishment would fit with this 15 particular location. 16 Our vision -- and it is a long-term 17 vision, but vision for this corridor is -- or our 18 comparable would be Michigan Avenue in Chicago. 19 We're not there. No question that we're not 20 there. But question whether or not you would see 21 an Apple store or an American Girl store or a 22 Disney store locating next to this establishment. 23 Our goal is to try to always upgrade West 24 Wisconsin Avenue, continue the investments that's 25 occurring there now and to enliven and implement 146 1 the downtown plan that we've invested in. We're 2 afraid that that can't happen or that would be 3 impeded by this establishment going forward. 4 Thank you. 5 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: First thing is, 6 Alderman Kovac would move to enter the handout by 7 Attorney Tomczyk into the record. 8 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 9 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 10 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I'll object to that. 11 My reasoning being that there's 75 to 100 pages 12 here. And if the attorney is questioning the 13 applicant's preparedness for this meeting, I 14 question her preparedness for this meeting if 15 you're dropping this 100-page document in our lap 16 six-and-a-half hours into this meeting, and you 17 were notified properly. So I will object to this 18 information being entered into the record until I 19 have -- or I would ask that we hold this matter 20 until I have an opportunity to fully consume this 21 document. 22 MS. TOMCZYK: If I could just respond? 23 The -- most of the items are the downtown plan, 24 the downtown master plan. They're already part of 25 this, right on the city's website, they are part 147 1 of the city's -- 2 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I understand that, but 3 it's -- and the city attorney can correct me if 4 I'm wrong -- in order to put this into the record, 5 I would have to acknowledge I've read it prior to 6 making my decision. I'm sorry, I -- maybe I'm a 7 stickler, but that's the way I've always -- you 8 know, I mean, if somebody hands me two or three 9 pictures, gives us a picture of some guy with 10 soiled shorts on it, I can consume that in a 11 matter of minutes; not the soiled shorts, but if 12 somebody hands me 100 pages' worth of 13 documentation that she says -- 14 ALDERMAN KOVAC: It is mostly pictures, 15 if you look through it. 16 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: And diagrams. 17 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Diagrams, you know, 18 here you go. I don't know how many numbers are on 19 that page. But I just think that, you know, if 20 we're going to talk about preparedness -- and I 21 realize that this is probably all on the city's 22 web page, but I can guarantee you, you've never 23 looked at the southwest proposed plan for my 24 district. 25 MS. TOMCZYK: Yes, I have. 148 1 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: You have? You're 2 pretty good because I had to ask for them to put 3 it on. 4 But anyway, I just have a problem, and 5 again, I'll ask the city attorney's opinion on 6 whether we should accept this or not. 7 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Accepting the 8 exhibit into the record is up to the discretion of 9 the chair and committee if a vote is necessary. 10 And accepting it into the record, generally 11 speaking, does not raise any evidentiary issues 12 unless a decision is made citing this as evidence 13 without the opportunity to review it. I mean, you 14 can accept it into the record as long as it's not 15 cited. Or if somebody is able to review it, then 16 you can cite to it. But at least from your 17 perspective as a voting member, that you would not 18 be able to rely upon it until you've had an 19 opportunity to review it, is well taken. 20 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Or, Attorney 21 Stephens, a third option is if you do see 22 something in here and you want to use that 23 specific information as grounds in your motion, 24 you could use it for that purpose as well. 25 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Yes. And to the 149 1 extent that this exhibit reflects evidence that's 2 already been put into the record through 3 testimony, sworn testimony, of other witnesses. 4 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Any further 5 discussion on the motion? 6 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 7 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 8 ALDERMAN KOVAC: I just want to clarify; 9 Alderman Dudzik's question piqued my interest. 10 When we take disciplinary action against an 11 establishment and their lawyers file, or they 12 themselves file sworn complaints, we are directly 13 asked before we vote on the matter if we've read 14 that complaint at council. 15 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Correct. 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And I don't think 17 accepting this into the record, we are then 18 implicitly saying we've read each and every -- 19 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: No, that's what I'm 20 saying. You're accepting it as an exhibit into 21 the record, but relying upon it is something 22 different than just accepting it into the record. 23 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So we're not obligated 24 to read it. 25 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 150 1 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Let's make sure 2 Alderman Dudzik is -- 3 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I just want to -- the 4 reason I -- it's dropped in my lap -- was the very 5 first page is a concentration map, and I don't 6 believe that is even one of the arguments for this 7 that's been cited. I mean, I'm looking at -- 8 their attorney is looking through this stuff, and 9 I just don't feel comfortable. I mean, we can 10 take a vote on it, but I just don't feel 11 comfortable accepting nearly 100 pages of 12 documentation into a file that nobody's really 13 gotten a chance to look at with the exception of 14 the last four-and-a-half minutes. 15 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Alderwoman 16 Coggs, on the motion. 17 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I want to support the 18 motion, but I do just want to point out for, you 19 know, at least two of the members of this 20 committee worked for several months on a big 21 portion of this packet, and that's the downtown 22 plan. Myself and Alderman Kovac, along with 23 Alderman Bauman, represent the area that was 24 covered in that plan. And also, it came before 25 the whole council where we all had to vote on it. 151 1 So I would hope, even if we didn't read it just 2 now in the last four minutes, that we read it 3 before we voted on it at council. And that's a 4 large -- that's probably more than half of this is 5 the downtown -- I don't know. So I'm just saying, 6 even if -- I'm not going to claim to have read 7 this in four minutes, but it's at least 50, 60 8 pages that I know I've read, because we helped 9 develop it. 10 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: And I appreciate that, 11 but I can't recite passage and verse of a document 12 that I may or may not have read two years ago. 13 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: So we have one 14 objection to Alderman Kovac's motion to enter the 15 document or exhibit from Attorney Tomczyk into the 16 record. Any more objections other than Alderman 17 Dudzik? If not, so ordered on a 4 to 1 vote. 18 Where were we? 19 We're you finished with your -- 20 MS. TOMCZYK: I'm done. 21 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Were you finished 22 with questions? 23 MR. OLSON: No, I haven't started. 24 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: You haven't 25 started, okay. Attorney Olson. 152 1 MR. OLSON: You pointed out that there 2 was some differences between the percentage of 3 income from various facets of the operation that 4 Mr. Ferraro talked about here and what you saw in 5 the liquor license application. 6 MS. TOMCZYK: Yes. 7 MR. OLSON: Would any distribution of 8 those percentages be sufficient to gain your 9 support for this business? 10 MS. TOMCZYK: The concerns I have when I 11 heard both, and what I saw in the application and 12 what I heard today, is the low percentage of food. 13 MR. OLSON: If they had a 50 percent 14 percentage of food, would that gain your support 15 for a gentlemen's club at that location? 16 MS. TOMCZYK: It's hard to say because 17 we have to look at the totality of the plan of 18 operation. With the plan of operation that was 19 before us and with what I heard today, I have 20 concerns, because it changed, first of all. And 21 also because the original plan of operation showed 22 only 10 percent food and then 30 percent of other, 23 and I, like Alderman Kovac, are not sure what 24 "other" meant. So you'd have to look at what the 25 final plan of operation ended up saying. 153 1 MR. OLSON: Are you really telling this 2 committee that if they had a bigger percentage for 3 food, you might be here supporting them? 4 MS. TOMCZYK: I'm saying that if there 5 were a licensed establishment that came that was a 6 restaurant that focused on food, I mean, if there 7 was a Bartolotta's at this location -- 8 MR. OLSON: I'm talking about a 9 gentlemen's club. Are you really telling this 10 committee that if there were a gentlemen's club 11 offering topless entertainment, you might be here 12 supporting them if they just had a higher 13 percentage of food on their application? 14 MS. TOMCZYK: I -- 15 MR. OLSON: No. 16 MS. TOMCZYK: I would have to consult 17 with the board. It would be their decision based 18 on the totality of the plan of operation. 19 MR. OLSON: You talked about the number 20 of expected patrons at a drinking establishment as 21 determined on an average basis by the Institute of 22 Transportation Engineers. 23 MS. TOMCZYK: Correct. 24 MR. OLSON: Were they talking about 25 places with a $20 cover charge and a $15 cocktail? 154 1 MS. TOMCZYK: They were not. These are 2 -- the Institute of Transportation Engineers 3 studies is what all retailers use to try to 4 determine what the traffic generation will be in 5 any particular establishment. They do that based 6 on nationwide studies that are done of all similar 7 types of establishments. They do not drill down 8 on to the specific cover charge at any particular 9 establishment. 10 MR. OLSON: Would you agree with me that 11 some places are going to make their money by 12 higher profit margins off fewer patrons and others 13 are going to make their money by lower profit 14 margins off greater numbers of patrons? 15 MS. TOMCZYK: I don't know enough about 16 your particular industry to speak to how you plan 17 to raise your revenues. What I know about the 18 industry standards makes me question whether or 19 not the generation for traffic and parking and the 20 plan of operation and security plans for that is 21 appropriate. 22 MR. OLSON: The -- among the material 23 you gave us here is a -- 24 MS. TOMCZYK: The Responsible 25 Hospitality Institute task force report? 155 1 MR. OLSON: There's a Milwaukee 2 roundtable summary report. 3 MS. TOMCZYK: Correct. 4 MR. OLSON: And that talks about 5 Milwaukee's live music and night scene as 6 accelerated from an influx of innovators from 7 other cities and an engine of native young people 8 staying in the city and participating as 9 entrepreneurs, performers and patrons. That is a 10 good thing. 11 MS. TOMCZYK: Yes. 12 MR. OLSON: And this establishment would 13 have performers, correct? 14 MS. TOMCZYK: I don't know enough about 15 your industry to speak to that. I'm not an expert 16 by any stretch on that. 17 MR. OLSON: It would be part of the 18 night entertainment scene? 19 MS. TOMCZYK: BID 21 definitely supports 20 a diversity of entertainment uses in the 21 appropriate locations; not in the retail corridor 22 of West Wisconsin Avenue. 23 MR. OLSON: Did you base your 24 projections for the number of customers that you 25 could expect at an average drinking establishment 156 1 upon an 11,000-square-foot establishment? 2 MS. TOMCZYK: I did. 3 MR. OLSON: And how big is this one? 4 MS. TOMCZYK: The plan of operation that 5 you have says 11,250 square feet as submitted. 6 That's what your floor plan showed. There was two 7 floors. 8 MR. FERRARO: The lower level is 9 dressing room, offices, has 7,000 square feet of 10 actual space for customers. After you take the 11 bathrooms out, it's probably about 5,000 feet. 12 MS. TOMCZYK: The ITE's base their 13 estimates on the total square footage of the 14 establishment, not based on -- not based on 15 customer-access areas. So it's apples to apples. 16 MR. OLSON: Okay. 17 MS. TOMCZYK: Again, I don't know that 18 the drinking place is the same as your 19 establishment. I'm sure you have a different 20 business plan. 21 MR. OLSON: Is this business on Old 22 World Third Street? 23 MS. TOMCZYK: Is your business? 24 MR. OLSON: Yeah. 25 MS. TOMCZYK: I believe so. Isn't your 157 1 application for 730 North Old World Third? 2 MR. OLSON: Yeah, that's what I thought, 3 because reading from the roundtable document, 4 again, on Page 9, it says under observations, 5 "Downtown and near downtown have distinctive 6 hospitality zones and entertainment clusters at 7 the following locations: Milwaukee Street, Water 8 Street, Jefferson Street, Old World Third Street, 9 Historic Third Ward and Brady Street." 10 MS. TOMCZYK: It would stop at State 11 Street, but the entertainment district would be 12 further to the north. 13 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 14 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Hold on. 15 Are you finished? 16 MR. OLSON: I am. 17 ALDERMAN KOVAC: I just want to, on that 18 particular question, I mean, sometimes we use 19 shorthand, but when we referred to, "Water Street 20 Entertainment District," we are not referring to 21 this building, although we're on Water Street. 22 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: And some would 23 construe this as entertainment. 24 ALDERMAN KOVAC: But it's not what they 25 meant in the roundtable. Maybe they should update 158 1 it. 2 MR. OLSON: You're entertaining enough, 3 you've got talent, but you could use some help 4 with the choreography. 5 MR. MAISTELMAN: You probably need a 6 beer license actually. 7 ALDERMAN KOVAC: But you understand that 8 the distinction, Old World North, they mean north 9 of this block. 10 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you very 11 much. 12 Next witness. 13 How many more witnesses do we have? 14 Okay. Whether supportive or in opposition? 15 All of people that are supportive, raise 16 your hand. Any more that's still in opposition? 17 Okay. We're all finished with the opposition, 18 right? 19 So now we'll start taking the people 20 that are supportive. Go up to the microphone. I 21 don't think this is going to take quite as long as 22 the opposition. 23 Time right now -- hold on, before you 24 begin, the time right now is about 3:40 in the 25 afternoon. 159 1 And please state your name and address. 2 MR. PLOETZ: Craig Ploetz, West 168 3 North 11062, Ashbury Circle, that's Germantown, 4 Wisconsin. 5 I think my partner, John, wanted me to 6 speak on behalf of my experience over the years 7 because I'm the old man of the group. I'm the man 8 that's been there since 1984. So I'm the person 9 who has that experience through dealing with -- 10 many of you remember the Old Attic West built by 11 one of the greatest operators this city has ever 12 known, that was Zoey Maholius (phonetic). I was 13 very, very fortunate to have been groomed by Zoey 14 for 11 years before he died of leukemia in 1995. 15 When I worked there, I worked my way through 16 college. It was a great venue. I worked through 17 the Attic West years, the Kickers Corral years, 18 Fantasia was my invention, and then I moved on to 19 Insomnia. 20 I got my degree in journalism and 21 broadcasting. I'm a twice published author. I 22 hope that some of you may have read some of my 23 work out there. It was distributed coast to coast 24 through Target stores. 25 It was around 1997 that Susan said, 160 1 "Craig, your books are taking you too far away 2 from the club. I want you to choose your books or 3 you choose the club." I chose the club, but only 4 if I got ownership. By a certain amount of time; 5 six more years would have to have passed, and I 6 had to keep the business solvent. And that time 7 came up in 2003, that's when myself, John Ferraro, 8 Scott Krahn, Joe Modl (phonetic); all products of 9 the Milwaukee Public Schools, all products of this 10 area, bought that club. 11 Before this time, when we had looked at 12 financial advisers, we're looking into different 13 uses of the club, there was this concern because I 14 was outliving every large nightclub on the 15 northwest side. And there were eight of them 16 within a three-mile radius. All of them fell to 17 the wayside because of poor operations. But 18 again, I was taught by the best, and that was 19 Zoey. We kept things solvent. But to my -- the 20 problem I was facing was, I was an island. All of 21 the focus was downtown, all of the nightclub 22 activity was downtown. So I thought, "How can I 23 keep this building profitable?" When I said that 24 I wanted ownership in the business, I thought it 25 was going to be in the nightclub. Well, financial 161 1 advisers said, "You know, you can have topless 2 dancing here. It's a gentlemen's club." And 3 initially, I thought, "No, I am not going to do 4 that." I was -- I am the only brother with three 5 sisters; I have a daughter of my own. I thought, 6 "I am not going to be the owner of a strip club." 7 Then I was informed and I was more educated on the 8 fact that there are differences. People throw 9 around these semantic terms of strip club and 10 gentlemen's club. Well, I know the difference, 11 because I went to some of the best clubs in the 12 country. And I discovered there are places that 13 you can operate and create that are respectful, 14 courteous, safe, secure. And we go to great 15 lengths to ensure these factors. 16 I hear people coming up here and talking 17 with disdain and some in a condescending manner as 18 far as the business that I own. And I'm not -- I 19 have never seen any of you in my club; none of my 20 clubs. Because if you were present in one of my 21 clubs, if you do see how we're operating, I'm sure 22 you'd have a different attitude. 23 I can honestly tell -- also, there were 24 some surprises of a gentlemen's club versus a 25 nightclub. And again, I've worked all of the 162 1 variables. The nightclub industry is much more 2 volatile in some ways: guys come in, they get in 3 the face of other guys' girlfriends and wives, and 4 that's where a lot of these fights start. In a 5 gentlemen's club, the guys come in, they sit down. 6 There's a decorum. The girls come to them. 7 There's the entertainment factor. They sit. I 8 don't see the problems that I saw with the 9 nightclubs over the years. I see a much different 10 atmosphere. It's a much different business than 11 most think. 12 So another one of the big surprises I 13 had are the couples that came in. There is no 14 greater compliment than when I see the number of 15 women that frequent my club. And one of the 16 greatest compliments I've received is when one of 17 my staff will take me outside -- it was a bar back 18 a few years ago, he said, "Mr. Ploetz, I've got to 19 show you something." I thought, "Oh, great." I'm 20 thinking someone dumped the garbage over again or 21 maybe there's something going on out there that -- 22 vandalism. And he said, "Sir, thank you." And he 23 pointed at his automobile, "This is the first new 24 car I've ever purchased." And he said, "Thank you 25 also for the job I received here because I've 163 1 moved my family into a better neighborhood." This 2 is what we do. We create jobs; now over 300. The 3 girls that come to our clubs, the women that come 4 there to pay their electric bills, to pay their 5 cars, their car payments, to pay for their 6 mortgages, to pay for the food they put on their 7 table, they make at our club. And I can honestly 8 say, it is safe, it is secure. 9 I'm very proud of the work that we have 10 done. And when I hear some of the negative 11 comments that are made -- again, I realize you 12 don't know the type of operation that you are 13 trying in some uninformed way to describe. There 14 are bad operations. There are bad restaurants. 15 There are bad nightclubs. And, yes, there are bad 16 gentlemen's clubs. But I'll tell you one thing, 17 when we brought Silk to Milwaukee, every other 18 club that has supported this type of, this genre 19 of entertainment, has scrambled to do what we've 20 done; scrambled to make the amenities; to make 21 things safe. Because we've got the best 22 entertainers. Because they always say, "It's safe 23 here. I like it here. The more I travel, the 24 more I realize how Silk is unique." I'm very 25 proud of it. 164 1 And given the opportunity to open this 2 club downtown, I hope that some of you may visit 3 and understand that the things that you are so 4 afraid of, this Martin Scorsese type, stereotype 5 that so many people have over John or myself or 6 Scott or Joe, is shown up for what it is; that is 7 untrue. 8 And I'd hope that -- I'd hope that we'll 9 be given the opportunity downtown. And, like I 10 said, being a product of this state, of this city, 11 we have a great deal of respect for the businesses 12 that we run. And I believe we'll show no less 13 respect in our professionalism downtown. 14 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Can you spell your 15 last name, please? 16 MR. PLOETZ: P-L-O-E-T-Z. 17 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 18 Committee? 19 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 20 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 21 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Hi, Craig. It's funny 22 that you should make mention of the fact you 23 didn't recognize anyone in the room, because I've 24 seen you at your clubs many times. And, in fact, 25 I happened to be sitting with one of your 165 1 opponents, and we had to both acknowledge that 2 we've been to the Attic many years ago. So I've 3 been going up there for many, many years. And you 4 were in the room when I expressed my concerns 5 about my relationship with John and certainly you 6 and Joe. 7 But I have to say that your passion for 8 your business is appreciated. The one thing I 9 want you to express to the committee and the 10 audience, you mentioned the books that you have 11 written, can you tell us the titles? 12 MR. PLOETZ: Milo's Friends in the Dark, 13 and Milo's Trip to the Museum with Grandpa, Milo 14 Picks a Pet, Milo's Super Heros, and then The 15 Apple Tree that Saved Pine Forest. And Milo's 16 Trip to the Museum with Grandpa was actually 17 written about an experience I had at the Milwaukee 18 Public Museum when I was separated from my 19 grandfather, which seemed like hours, but was only 20 a few moments, but -- 21 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: It does not appear to 22 me as you describe these books that they would be 23 listed as lurid or sensual, titillating or 24 anything like that. What would you classify that 25 as? 166 1 MR. PLOETZ: They're juvenile books. 2 One is -- 3 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Children's books? 4 MR. PLOETZ: Yeah, children's books. 5 The first one is to get children over the fear of 6 the dark by introducing positive imagery. The 7 second is one that I thought gives a good 8 description and character of a grandfather. I saw 9 very many decrepit examples of grandfathers in the 10 media, and my grandfather was a very strong 11 individual, and that's how he's portrayed in 12 Milo's Trip to the Museum with Grandpa. 13 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I ask you these 14 questions because I do want people to understand 15 that everybody that either operates a gentlemen's 16 club or attends a field palace or goes to a sports 17 club or what have you, whatever you want to call 18 them, isn't the dirty old man with the raincoat 19 that some of us have been led to believe in this 20 proceeding. So I thank you. 21 MR. PLOETZ: Thank you. 22 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Any other questions 23 by Committee? 24 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Mr. Chair. 25 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Perez. 167 1 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Do you spend a typical 2 eight-hour day on the floor talking to patrons as 3 they come in? 4 MR. PLOETZ: Yes, I do. I'm the only 5 operator actually that goes to all three 6 locations. I put 3,000 miles on my car each 7 month. I'm on the floor, and, yes, I have very 8 close interactions with the clientele. 9 ALDERMAN PEREZ: And then you have a 10 very clean record; nothing on the police record. 11 How is it that you prevent the opportunities for 12 prostitution or anything of the other testimony 13 we've heard today? 14 MR. PLOETZ: Well, one of the things, 15 you have to be an active owner. You have to be 16 there. It's very transparent. You know, people 17 think that, you know, the term ferreting out these 18 underlying elements. Some of these things can be 19 very obvious. And when people come into the club 20 with a preconceived notion as far as how easily 21 these things may be to occur or interact in my 22 club, they soon find out what kind of character I 23 have. And believe me, we find people that are 24 trying to do these things. They're really well 25 known as far as being not welcome in my club. We 168 1 do have things such as dress code, we do have 2 things that I call music code: I don't play music 3 that talks about killing police or beating women, 4 using racist epitaphs. We have attitude codes in 5 the club as well. If a person is sitting there 6 and looking as though he wants to face off with 7 someone, we don't just sit there and let someone 8 be a negative element in the club; we act on it. 9 ALDERMAN PEREZ: From your testimony, 10 I'm assuming that your dancers or your performers 11 have told you when someone is trying to solicit 12 them and you take care of that. Have you ever 13 done it the other way around, where you have 14 someone try to solicit your performers to see if 15 they -- and handle that that way? 16 MR. PLOETZ: If we believe that there is 17 someone that may be soliciting, we may use someone 18 who is -- someone that we trust, used in the past, 19 and we have made operations of that sort, yes. 20 ALDERMAN PEREZ: You have. 21 MR. PLOETZ: Yeah, we want to make sure 22 that we do not have these elements in our club. 23 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Thank you. 24 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: So when you say 25 "operations," you're talking about internal 169 1 undercover operations? 2 MR. PLOETZ: Yes. 3 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Any other questions 4 by Committee Members? 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 6 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 7 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Just a brief 8 observation, I don't know how -- I know you were 9 there as we were watching the fluoride hearing 10 yesterday, but I'd like the city clerk to go back 11 and see if we've ever had two straight days of 12 council hearings where witnesses have plugged 13 their books. 14 MR. PLOETZ: I'm not sure -- if that is 15 the outcome, that would be wonderful. 16 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: I think it was more 17 Alderman Dudzik plugging his book. Okay, great. 18 Attorney Olson. 19 MR. OLSON: I don't have any questions 20 for this witness. 21 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: You don't? Okay. 22 Thank you very much for your testimony. 23 MR. PLOETZ: Appreciate the opportunity. 24 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Please state your 25 name and address for the record. 170 1 MR. SILVA: Tony Silva, I live at 234 2 North Broadway in a condo in the Third Ward. 3 Apparently, I'm the only -- 4 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: You can bring the 5 microphone down a little. 6 MR. SILVA: Apparently, I'm the only 7 resident here that is for this establishment. I 8 guess in a nutshell, I've lived downtown in 9 Milwaukee for 13 years. My wife works in the mall 10 at Bon Ton. So the idea that the guy had where 11 that would be a bad thing for Bon Ton people is 12 ridiculous because they re-signed the lease and 13 they're happy there. Bon Ton is the only, you 14 know, anchor in that mall. That mall is going 15 downhill, and we need to do something to improve 16 it. We need to do something to improve the area, 17 and I'm think having a business that's 18 established, that's been established in the 19 northwest side of Milwaukee for many years, in 20 Juneau --- I don't know, I've never been to 21 Juneau, so I don't know anything about that, but 22 there's been no police records, there's been 23 nothing on the evening news that says people were 24 arrested at Silk for this and this. It sounds 25 like a clean -- a cleanly run business. They 171 1 obviously have their act together with planning 2 for valet parking. They have planning for a 3 loading zone. They are planning to, you know, be 4 in that area for a while. And I think it's 5 positive to have an establishment, be it a bar, 6 whatever, that is going to be there. I mean, we 7 had Martini Mike's where there was an unfortunate 8 incident. And that place has been a couple other 9 bars before that. And this is something that they 10 have an established plan. They kind of know what 11 they are doing for running a business. Their 12 place on the northwest side, I mean, I went there 13 when it was Attic West, I went there when it was 14 Fantasia. They were okay places, but nothing 15 crazy. And they went out of business, as did half 16 of the other bars in that area because they 17 weren't run properly. This is obviously a 18 well-run establishment. And I don't see why this 19 city who doesn't want a vacant building because a 20 vacant building causes problems, I don't see why 21 there would be an objection to this. 22 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Any questions by 23 Committee? 24 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 25 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 172 1 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: How long have you 2 lived there? 3 MR. SILVA: I've lived at 234 North 4 Broadway since 1989. So that's 14 years. 5 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 6 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Any further 7 questions by Committee? 8 Attorney Olson. 9 MR. OLSON: I don't have any questions. 10 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay, so we're down 11 to the last witness. Mr. John Ferraro, did -- oh, 12 no, one more. 13 Please state your name and address for 14 the record. 15 MR. WEIR: My name is David Weir. I 16 live at 2602 East Newberry Boulevard. And I'm the 17 building owner at 730 North Old World Third 18 Street. 19 I'm very interested in my career to find 20 the highest and best use for my property, and I'm 21 always looking for the most qualified applicant; 22 not an easy thing to do in this economy. It's a 23 struggle, and it's a challenge downtown because 24 things change a lot and our economy is a little 25 tough right now. I feel like I found the best 173 1 operators possible. I feel like I've found people 2 that are, you know, operating their own clubs, 3 they're not a corporation from outside the area, 4 and they do have a proven track record. 5 When I think of downtown, I think of 6 diversity and I think of entertainment. And I'm 7 sorry to say, retail is not going to work at this 8 location. Our mall has gone bankrupt. Every 9 business and building on my block has gone into 10 foreclosure except for mine. And I will tell you, 11 it's the hands-on people that take care of their 12 own things, the little guys trying to make it 13 happen, that are keeping the city alive, and we're 14 continuing to do that. 15 I understand a lot of this fear that's 16 out there, but a lot of that fear is not fact 17 based; it's based on fear and fear alone. 18 I would hope that after hearing -- a lot 19 of people can have their opinions. But we are 20 lucky, we are surrounded by three parking lots and 21 an alley. This is a high density of parking. You 22 couldn't ask for more parking in this area than 23 what's right there. There are so many high-rise 24 parking areas. There's a parking lot next door, 25 in back of me, in front of me, to the side of me, 174 1 to kitty corner to me. There's plenty of parking 2 for this area. 3 Since World War II, this location on the 4 first floor has been some sort of -- from the USO 5 on forward to many different kinds of restaurants 6 and nightclubs, it's always been an entertainment, 7 not a retail, area. If you can't rent out the 8 mall and you can't rent out Wisconsin Avenue, 9 you're not going to go three-quarters of a block 10 down on Old World Third Street in the middle of 11 nowhere and get retail. I'm sorry, it just 12 doesn't work that way. 13 I'm hoping that people can get past 14 their emotions and their fears and know that there 15 could be a potential here to draw other good 16 businesses. And these guys, if they're allowed to 17 do business, I believe, will do more for the area, 18 in that particular area, and draw more business in 19 a couple of years than anyone else we have at this 20 time or in the near future. Thank you. 21 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Questions by 22 Committee? 23 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 24 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 25 ALDERMAN KOVAC: You mentioned the Grand 175 1 Avenue Mall going bankrupt. Have you been -- have 2 you been inside in the last few months in the 3 mall? 4 MR. WEIR: Yeah, I go to the mall. I 5 frequent Radio Shack. 6 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So you're familiar 7 with, regardless of the financial state of the 8 owners, you're familiar with the, what I would 9 call, the revitalization that has occurred? Would 10 you agree with that for inside the mall? 11 MR. WEIR: Yes. But my point was, the 12 state of retail and the economy right now is 13 tough. And the bankruptcies, I'm not saying were 14 mismanaged, I'm saying it was from the state of 15 the economy. 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: From what I've seen in 17 the mall, correct me if I'm wrong -- I think the 18 director of recruitment was here, she didn't 19 testify, but I saw her in the room, Tracy Korpela 20 -- they basically -- because they made a very 21 strategic decision to focus on retail so it could 22 survive, and then to encourage office space and 23 other compatible uses of previously that had 24 retail space. And that's, from what I can see, 25 it's been a very successful strategy both for the 176 1 retail and foot traffic. It's not just a regular 2 meeting place, it's become like Milwaukee's living 3 room. 4 MR. WEIR: Right. It's a mall, and it's 5 retail, and it's on Wisconsin Avenue. I was 6 talking -- I was speaking in reference to my 7 property off of Wisconsin Avenue not having its 8 own parking lot, retail just doesn't work like 9 that. And a 7,000 square foot area, is not going 10 to attract a national retail tenant without 11 parking. 12 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Would you say that the 13 economic success of your property is linked to the 14 economic success of the Grand Avenue Mall given 15 the proximity? 16 MR. WEIR: No, I do not. Not for my 17 particular building. And that is why at 720 North 18 Old World Third Street, you've seen half the 19 building has been vacant for many, many years. 20 Because there's no retail there to put in. We 21 have a convenience store, which I support there 22 and is good for the neighborhood, and I was glad 23 to get something in there, but they can't get a 24 tenant either. And there's a reason for that: 25 they're not on Wisconsin Avenue. 177 1 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So you think that even 2 if retail works on Wisconsin, even though you're 3 -- how far are you from Wisconsin? 4 MR. WEIR: Little over half-block. 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: You don't think there 6 is any potential for the spillover effect if 7 Wisconsin is really thriving? 8 MR. WEIR: Not in this economy, not from 9 two years. It would have to be -- there'd have to 10 be more jobs and more retail. Once retail fills 11 up, there's always potential for it to spread. 12 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Do you think the 13 economic success or other kinds of success or 14 failures of your property have an effect on Grand 15 Avenue? 16 MR. WEIR: No, I don't. I don't think 17 -- I think my property is pretty separate from 18 that. And I do think that the booming economy 19 downtown right now is entertainment. I think it's 20 the one thing we have to hold on to at the moment. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Thank you. 22 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Any further 23 questions by the committee? 24 If not, Attorney Olson. 25 MR. OLSON: What other sorts of tenants 178 1 do you have in your building? 2 MR. WEIR: Right now, I'm 100 percent 3 occupied. And I have young professionals, 4 graduate students, actually people of all ages 5 because they live and work downtown. And any 6 lease I sign, I make sure I make a note of it and 7 let them know that there is a potential for a 8 gentlemen's club to be in the building. And I 9 have a waiting list at this time. 10 MR. OLSON: Have you had people refuse 11 to sign leases because you had informed them that 12 there may be a gentlemen's club? 13 MR. WEIR: No, I've had not one person. 14 I've had one -- two people that objected the last 15 time, and one moved out and one is on her way out. 16 MR. OLSON: No further questions. 17 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So the address of the 18 building you own is? 19 MR. WEIR: 730-734 North Old World 20 Third. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Right. And so you have 22 one retail -- can you describe the structure of 23 your building? 24 MR. WEIR: Sure. The first floor is all 25 kind of bar/restaurant sort of space, and then the 179 1 four floors above that are 37 either one-bedroom 2 or studio apartments. 3 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And then we had a 4 number of residents testify from 720, which is 5 next door to you. 6 MR. WEIR: Next door. And I -- my 7 building is not dilapidated, by the way. It is up 8 to code, and I've never had a problem with anybody 9 at the city. And my tenants don't have a problem, 10 and, like I said, I have a waiting list. 11 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So when you said before 12 the only thing booming downtown was entertainment, 13 you meant as opposed to retail; not as opposed to 14 residential? 15 MR. WEIR: Right. 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Because the residential 17 is booming. 18 MR. WEIR: Yeah, and I'm supportive of 19 that, totally support of diversity downtown. 20 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And you think -- you 21 think there was a connection potentially between 22 the residential success of your building and 23 others, and that you state this use on firsthand 24 testimony, not from your building from next door? 25 MR. WEIR: I think that after the fog 180 1 clears and the fear clears and they've been in 2 business for a while, I think what they've done 3 elsewhere in other cities, in our city, will 4 actually, people will no longer have that fear. 5 It's the fear of the unknown. 6 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And based on our 7 previous questions, you thought -- I respect that 8 answer and it makes sense to me where you're 9 coming from on that. You said before that you 10 really feel like your economic success and 11 otherwise is isolated from Grand Avenue. Do you 12 feel that you're isolated from your next door 13 neighbors, 720? 14 MR. WEIR: No, I do not. I feel they're 15 important to my business. And I am -- you know, I 16 don't know how important I am to their business, 17 but they are a community; they have renters and 18 not condo owners. And my number one priority with 19 any tenant is, you only have one neighbor to make 20 happy, and there it is. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So you feel your 22 influence ends there. They're a step closer to 23 Grand Avenue, do they feel they're affected by 24 Grand Avenue, given their proximity? 25 MR. WEIR: They're not affected by Grand 181 1 Avenue because they can't rent their commercial 2 space either, so -- in many years, I mean, I don't 3 know if it's more than five years or longer. But 4 that sort of retail, and now when I say "retail," 5 I mean shopping retail, daytime retail, it's just 6 not a fit for our street. Powers is there, their 7 retail is on the corner, and they've been there, 8 so they have built-in business. 9 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Mr. Chair. 10 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Perez. 11 ALDERMAN PEREZ: I'm curious, do you 12 feel that any of the associations, the BID, 13 Westown, have engaged you about plans being 14 involved in the comprehensive -- have you been 15 engaged in all of these conversations, feel that 16 you've been outreached? 17 MR. WEIR: They're always talking about 18 retail, and I just feel it's so far off base, I 19 don't know what I could do to help them in that 20 regard. I've been a real estate broker licensed 21 in the state of Wisconsin for over 30 years, okay. 22 And their plans and their careers and how they 23 come up with this stuff, I have no clue what's 24 going on. Because if you look at the retail 25 downtown, it's not thriving, okay. And it's not 182 1 going to thrive in even a lesser profile area than 2 where we're at. 3 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 4 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Are you finished, 5 Alderman Perez? 6 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Yes, I am. 7 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 8 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I didn't hear an 9 answer to Alderman Perez's question. I would like 10 to know as well, have you ever been engaged with 11 the downtown organizations? 12 MR. WEIR: Oh, yeah, I've talked to -- I 13 mean, I talked to them about any business I was 14 getting ready to put in. I've gone to one meeting 15 for the BID. And Westown, I've never gone to any 16 meetings. But I always talk to them first before 17 I'm entertaining a -- as a matter of fact, Rusty's 18 is the first tenant that I ever signed. Any 19 tenant that's gone prior to that, I didn't own the 20 building. So that was my first -- well, actually, 21 these guys were the first sign, and then they 22 sublet it to Rusty's, but that was my first go at 23 the commercial spot. 24 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 25 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney Olson. 183 1 MR. OLSON: I have no further questions. 2 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay, the last 3 witness will be John Ferraro. Yes. Go ahead. 4 Please state your name and address again. 5 MR. FERRARO: John Ferraro, North 52 6 West 21488 Taylor Woods Drive, Menomonee Falls, 7 53051. 8 MR. OLSON: Mr. Ferraro, what's your 9 role in Six Star? 10 MR. FERRARO: I'm the owner and the 11 operator. 12 MR. OLSON: And what's your background 13 in business? 14 MR. FERRARO: I've been in the 15 bar/restaurant business for 21 years. I started 16 out when I was 14 working in an Italian 17 restaurant, DeMarini's in Menomonee Falls. I 18 started in the kitchen, cooked, went out to 19 bar-backing, bartending, eventually running the 20 place. 21 I bought my first location, Badda Bing, 22 at 68th and Oklahoma in Alderman Dudzik's area. 23 And, like he said, we were at the bank closing, 24 and our sign went up and I already got a call from 25 him, and he got calls from neighbors, and all 184 1 these concerns. We had a couple neighborhood 2 meetings and people were upset about it. And 3 again, a lot of it was the unknown they were upset 4 about. You know, we told them this is going to be 5 a nice place, but no one believes you. We 6 operated there for years without problems. And it 7 was a problem place when we bought the place. 8 Operated a clean -- always -- not always got 9 along; we butted heads a few times, but, you know, 10 he told me something and I did it. I always went 11 to him if I had questions, if I wanted to do 12 something, and I listened. 13 After that, I bought Highway 100 and 14 Silver Spring, met with Jim Bohl before we opened, 15 and he told me he really wasn't in favor of a 16 gentlemen's club, but we had the right to be 17 there. And he was going to be honest, and if we 18 did something wrong, that he would make sure we 19 got shut down. And we've been there nine years 20 now. And, again, you know, we've tried a couple 21 things and applied for things, and he's -- I've 22 always respected his opinion. I've always gone to 23 him before I've tried anything. I don't try to go 24 outside of the box, do something crazy. I know 25 very well the city can close me down. 185 1 After that, I opened a club in Juneau, 2 Wisconsin. A small community; again, it's similar 3 as the street we're on now. There's neighbors 4 upstairs, on the side, flower shop next door, 5 restaurant, barber, insurance agent, which no one 6 has been affected, as the mayor even wrote us a 7 letter. Been operating out there, and actually an 8 asset to the community; I donated money. They had 9 some problems in a park, we bought them a $5,000 10 camera system. Just being a good neighbor to the 11 people in the area. 12 And again, when we first opened up -- 13 every location I've opened, I've had the exact 14 same people and same concerns: Where's it going 15 to be? Where -- the same concerns that everyone 16 here has today as, you know, the crime, the 17 prostitution, the drugs. And all I can say is, 18 once we're there, we prove it wrong. 19 And we've had the same thing in 20 Middleton, Wisconsin, which is a very high -- it 21 was voted number one place in the country to live 22 a few years back, and the neighbors were irate. 23 And within three months of being opened, there was 24 probably -- people with moral issues are never 25 going to get it. I won't -- I have no reason to 186 1 argue with them. They got theirs; I've got mine. 2 But anyone that has these perceptions of what's 3 going to go wrong, I can prove to them -- I have 4 proved to them through different markets that it 5 doesn't. 6 And I also own a comedy club, Jokerz 7 Comedy Club, and Showtime Sports Bar. So 8 owner/operator of all the clubs. I have a perfect 9 tavern record, you know, with all of them. And 10 just, like I said, I want to say that a lot of 11 fears of the unknown, we've been proven in a short 12 period of time. 13 And how we are at Silver Spring, now 14 people talk, "Oh, it's a great place." In the 15 beginning it was, "It's going to be terrible. 16 There will be protesters." Same with Juneau, same 17 with Madison. 18 We hope, if we do get the opportunity 19 downtown here, we can prove to the people we will 20 be good neighbors, and it will help the economy 21 out. 22 MR. OLSON: Let's talk about some of the 23 aspects of your business plan for Silk downtown. 24 Where are you going to put people's cars if they 25 come in their own vehicle? 187 1 MR. FERRARO: Well, the front will be 2 valet. So the whole front will be a loading zone. 3 So if they come in their own vehicle -- they 4 choose a valet, which most people do when they go 5 downtown, we've hired No Problem Valet who does 6 all of the valet on Milwaukee Street. Again, 7 that's standard. They have thousands of clientele 8 on a Friday night. So they're able to handle it. 9 If they're not, we bring on a second valet. We do 10 whatever needs to be done to make it work. If 11 someone wants to self park, they'll self park. 12 Hopefully, they will follow the signs. If not, 13 they'll be ticketed. 14 The thing is, if there's an issue, we're 15 very proactive on it. We don't sit back and wait. 16 Actually, we don't wait for the problem, we try to 17 solve it before it becomes a problem for the 18 police or someone comes to us or neighbors and 19 complains. 20 MR. OLSON: Do you expect to generate 21 traffic congestion problems on the street in front 22 of your building? 23 MR. FERRARO: Not at all. 24 MR. OLSON: Why not? 25 MR. FERRARO: I feel probably 80 percent 188 1 of the business will be taxicab, limo. So between 2 that and the valet, it's smooth. They get in, 3 they get out of their cars. We've been doing this 4 for years. We know how to get people in the door. 5 It's a smaller, more upscale club. It's not, you 6 know, it's not going to be the buses pulling in 7 the streets both ways. It's more upscale. It's 8 high end, higher dollar. It's going to be cars 9 two, four; two, four coming. 10 MR. OLSON: Your entertainment program 11 is going to be dancers, topless dancers, dancing 12 to recorded music? 13 MR. FERRARO: Correct. 14 MR. OLSON: What's your plan for making 15 sure the recorded music on the inside doesn't 16 disturb people on the outside? 17 MR. FERRARO: We have a professional 18 sound group I've worked with for ten years. In 19 fact, at Badda Bing, I was right in the middle of 20 a residential neighborhood and never had a sound 21 complaint. Now, we've learned when we build a 22 place, the last three places we've built out, we 23 had them draw diagrams for soundproofing in the 24 walls and ceiling, and everywhere else that need 25 be. Then we test all the levels with a decibel 189 1 meter, and we set them. Once we get to a level 2 that's comfortable, we set them. All of the 3 amplification is locked up; the DJ has no control 4 over the volume, so it's just a matter of he is 5 just changing music. And again, if there ever is 6 a problem, we bring them back in and adjust it. 7 In Milwaukee, we have a comedy club in 8 our lower lever, I mean, right below us, which 9 needs to be whisper quiet, and you could hear the 10 bass; the bass is the biggest problem, so you 11 could hear the bass. We put in 12 inches of 12 insulation, about $20,000 worth of soundproof 13 insulation. And it's whisper quiet down there, 14 so. Again, we do -- initially we do whatever it 15 takes. When we think it's perfect, we see if 16 there's any complaints. But if it's not, we do 17 what it takes to fix it. 18 MR. OLSON: What will happen to this 19 premises over the course of the next six months to 20 a year if the city gives you a license? 21 MR. FERRARO: The next three months will 22 be blueprints and all of the specs we're talking 23 about, the soundproofing. Those guys will all 24 work together. Then construction will start three 25 months out. And then hopefully, we will have 90 190 1 days, 90 days of build-out. So in about six 2 months, if we get the license granted, we will be 3 open the first of the year. 4 MR. OLSON: Do you expect to have 5 problems with people congregating in lines outside 6 waiting to get in? 7 MR. FERRARO: Not at all. Again, it's 8 going to be smaller, upscale. It's not, you know, 9 your bachelor party hangouts, you know, we're not 10 going to have groups of people coming. It's not 11 going to be big enough to anticipate that problem. 12 And if there is that problem, we will put in some 13 kind of, you know, a rail system up out there, 14 added floor hosts. Whatever it takes, again, to 15 make the neighbors happy. One thing we know is, 16 we're putting $2 million into a building that, 17 one, because it's a license, you can get evicted, 18 all that, so. 19 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Did you say "rail 20 system?" 21 MR. FERRARO: I meant like -- 22 ALDERMAN KOVAC: That's what I heard. 23 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: A number of people got 24 all excited for the first time today. 25 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Just on site. 191 1 MR. FERRARO: Yeah, it will go around 2 the building. 3 MR. OLSON: Do you have a plan for 4 steering certain kinds of customers or groups to 5 one of your locations or the other in the city of 6 Milwaukee? 7 MR. FERRARO: Well, our goal, again, is 8 to have -- they don't want to bleed the other 9 location in Milwaukee. And a lot of people are 10 going to be curious about the new one, so the 11 higher cover charge, we feel, will keep out the 12 bachelor -- if a bachelor party calls -- most of 13 them go online, they log in or they call, we'll 14 tell them, "There is a $20 cover charge downtown. 15 We'll comp you another location on Highway 100 and 16 Silver Spring." You know, 95 percent of them are 17 going to take 30 guys times 20 bucks, 600 bucks, 18 they're going to take the free -- we're set up on 19 Highway 100 with a big capacity with the big lots. 20 So that's our way of steering how we -- with the 21 higher-end clientele, we don't want a group of 20 22 kids coming off a bus. So it's just -- it 23 wouldn't make sense for our business plan to have 24 that there. 25 MR. OLSON: Do you have a plan to deal 192 1 with the potential litter problem outside of your 2 establishment? 3 MR. FERRARO: The same thing we do at 4 our other locations. We have trash cans outside. 5 We have a floor man go -- there's a floor man 6 stationed outside at all times. And there's a guy 7 on the property that controls the lot. And the 8 guy outside, he is relieved by another guy who 9 walks the lot every two hours at the end of the 10 night. Before the girls are left -- I'm sorry, 11 after the girls all walk off the property, we walk 12 -- we do our whole property, and we walk the extra 13 block just because we know people will blame us 14 for anything, any kind of litter. So we kind of 15 go above and beyond what we need to do. But, you 16 know, again, not having any of the complaints, 17 it's well worth it. 18 MR. OLSON: What will be your policy 19 with respect to use of illegal drugs? 20 MR. FERRARO: Everyone that comes in 21 signs a nondrug policy, nondrug disclosure. But 22 we do, we do random searches, random locker 23 searches for all of the girls. We actually run a 24 drug dog through the club, and it's a 25 zero-tolerance policy. Anyone that we suspect, 193 1 and we do have -- you know, if we do see someone 2 or you hear of something, we do have a few people 3 that work with us as far as internal staff that 4 will do undercover work to try to catch the 5 person. We, you know, it's a zero tolerance. 6 Same with prostitution. 7 MR. OLSON: Do you expect to have a 8 problem at Silk downtown with disorderly patrons? 9 MR. FERRARO: I do not. I mean, it's 10 very, very rare that we have an issue. And like 11 Craig said, most of the times in our club, it's 12 guys sitting down talking to girls. Most of the 13 fights that I've witnessed is, I go into bars, 14 nightclubs, restaurants, guy is with his 15 girlfriend, it causes -- you know, another couple, 16 another guy hits on the guy's girlfriend. By us, 17 everyone is by themselves with entertainers. And 18 it's very few and far between. And normally, we 19 have, you know, on any given night, we have four 20 to eight floor hosts so. They're trained to watch 21 for things. If we -- as soon as we -- we don't 22 wait for a fight to break out. If there's an 23 argument, we grab both parties, tell them, "Hey, 24 you both have to leave for the night." Walk one 25 out one way, walk the other out the other way. 194 1 "You're welcome to come back. Here's your car. 2 We know you had a bad night." But it's just very 3 few and far between. And if it happens, we 4 control it immediately. 5 MR. OLSON: What will be your hours of 6 operation? 7 MR. FERRARO: 11:00 a.m. until bar time. 8 MR. OLSON: And then tell us about the 9 food end of the operation. 10 MR. FERRARO: The food, we're going to 11 go for a higher-end lunch, more of the steaks, 12 seafood, try to get the lunch crowd in. And then 13 after 4:00, we're going to more of a sandwich, 14 appetizer menu served until 1:00 a.m. 15 MR. OLSON: Do you expect to install 16 security cameras and a video monitoring system? 17 MR. FERRARO: Yes. In Milwaukee right 18 now, we have 72. And once we do the further 19 blueprints, it will be between 64 -- 64 is the 20 least cameras we have at any location. And we're 21 able to cover every square foot of the inside and 22 then all four, all four directions on the outside 23 of the building. 24 And at our Highway 100 location, we've 25 actually solved a couple of crimes, hit-and-run, 195 1 just because the security camera was pointed on 2 Silver Spring, which is a block away. So we're 3 very -- we take security very seriously. And 4 there's two people: there's one of our floor 5 hosts that's monitoring the couch; and our floor 6 host for VIP that are monitoring the cameras at 7 all times. Plus, me and all the partners have 8 access on our home computers, homes, to watch all 9 these cameras. 10 MR. OLSON: Finally, some of the 11 witnesses have said that they fear that a 12 gentlemen's club, no matter how upscale, no matter 13 how expensive, no matter how well run, will still 14 attract undesirable patrons. What do you have to 15 say to that? 16 MR. FERRARO: I mean, there's going to 17 be undesirable people going to anywhere. You can 18 go to a hotel that's $5,000 a night, there's 19 probably going to be undesirable people. I mean, 20 it could happen anywhere. But in my, you know, 21 10, 11 years of business, I have seen a handful of 22 them. And if they -- most of the undesirable 23 people are not even admitted in the door. You 24 know, we have, like Craig said, it's not just a 25 dress code, it's a personality code, an attitude 196 1 code. If you're acting a certain way, you're not 2 going to get in. So again, we don't want -- I 3 don't want to be around a bunch of degenerates all 4 day. You know, I know my customers don't. If my 5 customers aren't there, we're not going to make 6 money. So it makes no sense for us to -- and 7 another thing I just want to say, it's not like a 8 lot of nightclubs in town, we're not hitting and 9 run; around here for two or three years and make 10 all our money and then run. The first three years 11 it takes us to build up our clientele base. And 12 I've got a 30-year lease on it. I wouldn't sign a 13 30-year lease if I thought I was going to be out 14 in three years. So we've done a lot. I think 15 everything we've done, hopefully, spoken for 16 itself, and hopefully, these people, there's a lot 17 of people here that are against us, give us a 18 chance and see that we're serious and we're not 19 just full of hot air. 20 MR. OLSON: In your other locations, how 21 do you get along with your neighbors after you've 22 been open for a while? 23 MR. FERRARO: Great. Again, at the 24 beginning, every location I've opened, as far as a 25 gentlemen's club, we've had the exact same 197 1 perception: everyone is against it and is scared 2 of the variables, the unknowns; but within, I 3 mean, within -- in Middleton, literally, within a 4 month, people were comfortable. Juneau, after the 5 grand opening, there was like two people 6 protesting; a week later, they were happy. 7 Milwaukee, it was a couple of months. I mean, 8 maybe it takes two or three months, but once 9 people see it is a professional business, it's not 10 going to affect anything on the street -- someone 11 was saying earlier about security: it looks 12 shady. Our floor hosts dress just like this. All 13 of our floor hosts are in tuxedoes. So if there 14 is a guy outside in a tuxedo, you wouldn't know if 15 you were in front of the Hilton or my club. I 16 mean, it's the same thing. You've got a concierge 17 outside, so it's not going to be unattractive from 18 the street. It's going to look like another 19 business, you know. 20 MR. OLSON: Thank you. No further 21 questions. 22 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Aldermen. 23 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 24 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 25 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: For smoking, do you 198 1 -- my knowledge of the location, you don't have a 2 patio or anything like that. What do you think 3 will -- what do you anticipate doing with smokers? 4 MR. FERRARO: Our initial -- in the east 5 side of the building, there's a 12-by-12 room, and 6 we're having the health department look into some 7 issues to see if we can get an indoor smoking. 8 With the right ventilation nowadays, you can do 9 that. That would be our number-one priority, is 10 to get that done. So whatever it takes, whatever 11 ventilation we need, whatever they say, whatever 12 it is that needs to be done. Because I do not 13 like to have clientele outside. It's not good for 14 business; people can't drink outside. And it's 15 not good for neighbors: noise problems. So we 16 will do whatever it takes to make that happen. We 17 already have the space set up. 18 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: So if that's not able 19 to happen? 20 MR. OLSON: If it's not able to happen, 21 I would have -- the customers will have to go out 22 front. Again, we'll have the rail system out 23 front, and it will be portioned in with, you know, 24 someone watching it. 25 The one good thing about a gentlemen's 199 1 club compared to a bar, most bars, taverns, have 2 people outside for hours; by me, I mean, guys 3 smoke a cigarette in ten seconds. They don't want 4 to miss anything. There's nothing going on 5 outside. They want to get back in. They're there 6 for the entertainment. So there's not a long 7 period of time where guys are outside. 8 As far as the entertainers, there's a 9 back area that we were talking about, off of that 10 is a loading area. I'd like to have the girls 11 smoke there. I do not want the two to mingle. It 12 just makes it easier where -- it will keep -- it 13 will get customers in quicker if they're not 14 outside talking to an entertainer, because then 15 they'll have a conversation outside. 16 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: You mentioned that 17 you signed a 30-year lease. When did you sign it? 18 MR. FERRARO: That would have been 19 three -- May 2010, I believe. 20 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Have you spoken with 21 -- a lot of neighbors came forward today against 22 you, and, you know, I can admit that, as you said, 23 sometimes the people who have moral objections, 24 it's nothing you can do to change that. But have 25 you -- oftentimes, we ask applicants, and I'm 200 1 going to ask you, have you -- had you reached out 2 to them, or did you try to have a neighborhood 3 meeting? 4 MR. FERRARO: The first time we applied, 5 we set up with the BID 21, with the Westown. We 6 set up with everyone possible. And it's just -- 7 it dug us a deeper hole. I would get up there, 8 everyone would -- I mean, it wasn't as controlled 9 as this, so everyone started screaming at me, and 10 we just found that it made people madder. Because 11 no matter what I said to them, they didn't really 12 care. We talked to them about security. We drew 13 up kind of a packet -- we entered it in last 14 time -- and it showed the property value. We did 15 the property value by Silk; property values by On 16 the Border; Airport Lounge; and ours, and the 17 property values, River Hills', Bayshore's -- a 18 realtor did all this, and the property values did 19 not drop any. In the gentlemen's clubs, there's 20 actually one area, Airport Lounge, where it 21 actually increased compared to the other areas 22 without clubs. So people saying the property 23 value is going to drop, we went that far to prove 24 it. And they looked at the packet, and they -- no 25 one opened it. So we just found, we tried, and 201 1 it's really hard to get people to change their 2 opinion. The only way we can do it is by showing 3 them how we operate. 4 So yeah, we have tried, and we're 5 willing to do anything to make people happy. But, 6 I mean, obviously, if our neighbors are happy -- 7 are not happy, it's going to be a problem for us. 8 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: You mentioned the BID 9 in the organizations, but did that outreach 10 include the neighbor neighbors? 11 MR. OLSON: Yeah, we put out -- we put 12 out a mailer. I forgot how far it was. I mean, 13 it was a $4,000 mailer. I forget how far that 14 gets you, but it was -- we had a lobbyist working 15 with us, and she mailed it out to maybe a square 16 mile. I couldn't tell you the exacts, but we 17 had -- I don't know -- we had a meeting with them, 18 and that was even worse. I mean, at least the 19 BIDs, they were kind of somewhat respectful; these 20 people were just -- no matter what I said, it 21 wouldn't have mattered. 22 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Okay. Thank you. 23 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Was that your 24 closing remarks, Attorney Olson? 25 MR. OLSON: I do have some closing 202 1 remarks. 2 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Why don't we 3 go to -- the time right now is about 4:27. We'll 4 have closing remarks by Attorney Olson, and then 5 we're going to take it into committee. 6 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Are we going to hear 7 from Alderman Bauman? 8 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Oh, yeah, Alderman 9 Bauman. And we'll hear from Alderman Bauman. 10 Although, I don't know what the rail business -- 11 MR. OLSON: He supports that. 12 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. First, let's 13 hear from Alderman Bauman, and then we'll give the 14 applicants the closing statements. 15 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair, 16 Members of the Committee. 17 We have sat through four hours, more or 18 less, of testimony. And, you know, over the eight 19 years that I've been alderman, I represent the 20 district with the greatest number of licenses, 21 liquor license establishments. There's over 150; 22 closer to 200, in the downtown area of my 23 district. And as many of you know who have been 24 on this committee for some time: Alderman Dudzik, 25 in my first term, our first terms; many of the 203 1 rest of you in the second term, know that I've 2 been a very staunch advocate for proper behavior 3 in connection with nightclubs and bars. We have 4 had some dogged fights with nightclubs in the 5 downtown area. And some we've been successful in 6 terms of achieving some accountability; most of 7 the time, not successful by reason of the law or 8 usually by reason of -- and this is why I'm 9 getting to this -- the reason of nobody showing up 10 in opposition despite homicides, fighting, 11 incredible consumption of police resources, dozens 12 and dozens of officers being called on a weekly 13 basis to deal with nightclub commotion and crowd 14 dispersal and parking and cruising, an innumerable 15 number of consequences, secondary effects of 16 nightclubs, which have -- which cost the 17 taxpayers, which impinge on the neighbors' quality 18 of life, which create economic dead zones in 19 several areas of downtown. And I can name the 20 specific clubs. I mean, 618 Lady Bug. Every 21 single year, we -- every single renewal but their 22 first three; after the first three years they 23 changed their product, basically, and ever since 24 that time, it has been an argument every single 25 year. 204 1 The Jungle. The Jungle on Broadway, 2 which ultimately was non-renewed, it took a 3 neighbor, who was actually here earlier, 4 Don Aronson, he had to file his own revocation 5 action, hire his own lawyer and collect his own 6 evidence, and I was standing with him, and we got 7 a 90-day suspension out of the committee. This 8 was in 2006. And then at council, we were able to 9 increase that to a nonrenewal by a vote of one. 10 Why do I mention all of this? Because 11 we've had some odd witnesses come in today who 12 very seldom come to licensing. We've had some 13 interesting arguments made today, which are very 14 seldom made at licensing. The odd witness is the 15 Department of City Development. I've been trying 16 to get them engaged in licensing issues for eight 17 years with no success whatsoever. They have never 18 come to a licensing meeting involving downtown 19 during my eight years. Now, if they've appeared 20 in other districts, or if they've appeared in 21 years prior, I can't state. But in my eight years 22 of representing this district, they have never 23 appeared on a licensing matter involving the 4th 24 Aldermanic District despite my constant requests 25 for them to do so to make the argument that they 205 1 exactly made here today. That namely, these 2 nightclubs; gentlemen's clubs; large bars; sports 3 bars; whatever you call them, particularly the 4 ones that have large capacity, do impact economic 5 development, do impact broader concerns that the 6 city has regarding retail development and 7 residential development and commercial development 8 and office development. And you don't want to 9 have these bars and nightclubs creating dead 10 zones, or nobody wants to be near them because of 11 all of the commotion and the police and the 12 cruising and the broken windows and the trash and 13 the litter, not to mention gun play that can 14 sometimes take place. I've wanted them to come in 15 and make these arguments. "Oh, no, no, no, that's 16 not -- we don't do that. We don't do that." 17 The land use plan. Interesting 18 argument. First time we've ever heard the land 19 use plan brought forward in the licensing 20 committee. I'm a huge supporter of the land use 21 plan. Alderwoman Coggs correctly pointed out that 22 three of us in this room were very intrical in the 23 preparation of that land use plan. I'm -- I was 24 so much a proponent of that land use plan, that I 25 was -- that I was on my hands and knees with my 206 1 colleagues, with the Department of City 2 Development and with many of the stakeholders who 3 are in this room to say, "Please, your proposal to 4 tear down five buildings in the east side 5 commercial district is directly contrary to the 6 downtown land use plan. Please stick to the 7 plan." Why do we pass these plans if we don't 8 abide by them? Why do we pass these plans when 9 we're willing to throw them right out the window 10 for the first guy that comes along and says, "I'm 11 going to create five jobs?" All of a sudden, the 12 land use plan, we can't do. We can't even 13 entertain a gentlemen's club -- the land use plan. 14 It suffices to say, we're not very consistent in 15 the application of this land use plan. 16 And as I -- and as has been pointed out, 17 it does not rise to the level of a zoning code. 18 This particular application is a permitted use. 19 They need no action from the Board of Zoning 20 Appeals. They require no action from the Common 21 Council regarding a zoning matter. So it was 22 almost a -- almost a paper argument. Other than 23 to express sentiment that this council has adopted 24 regarding development goals, which sentiments were 25 very quick to ignore when it suits us, as we did 207 1 ignore in the case of the Marriott Hotel, in the 2 demolition of five historic buildings in an 3 historic district, which was directly contrary to 4 express language in that land use plan. So much 5 for the land use plan. 6 I do agree with the arguments made by 7 some that gentlemen's clubs, whether run by this 8 individual or really by anyone, by their very 9 nature are an impediment to commercial, retail 10 development. I basically agree with that 11 sentiment. And to the extent you're trying to 12 develop or redevelop a particular area of downtown 13 and specifically focus on retail or ground floor 14 commercial and retail, a gentlemen's club would be 15 an impediment. But so would every one of these 16 nightclubs that no one wants to come and object 17 to. The comment was made, "Well, we've objected 18 many times." I've been begging to get downtown 19 associations, and the executive directors will 20 come on occasion, lately more so than previously, 21 but the Jungle, nobody showed up. The lockdown 22 battle we had with Jungle nightclub back in 2006, 23 it was Don Aronson, a resident who lives on 24 Broadway, and me; two people in the room, 25 literally with 50, 60 witnesses screaming and 208 1 hollering against us and calling us every name in 2 the book. Where were all of these stakeholders, 3 all of these real estate agents, all of the 4 experts, all of the lawyers, all of the legal 5 counsel for all of the different groups? Believe 6 me, these nightclubs to the extent an 7 entertainment facility interferes with or 8 jeopardizes retail and commercial development, the 9 traditional large menu nightclub, in my judgment, 10 and based on what I've actually seen happen, are 11 infinitely worse than any adverse effect from a 12 gentlemen's club. Infinitely worse. Particularly 13 given that their track record, which is 14 demonstrably almost idyllic, and we have aldermen 15 on this body who can testify to their exact 16 experience with this operator. 17 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay, Alderman 18 Bauman, sorry, the court reporter is just about 19 out of ribbon. 20 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: All right, I'm almost 21 done anyway. 22 (Recess taken.) 23 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: In any event, the 24 bottom line for me is, I do think this club will 25 interfere with the plans expressed in the downtown 209 1 land use plan to promote retail, commercial 2 development on West Wisconsin Avenue. But I think 3 this committee should take into consideration the 4 fact that virtually every other major nightclub 5 and liquor licensee that has first-floor space in 6 that same vicinity will have the exact same 7 effect. And in the past, we have never had the 8 type of turnout we've had today. I'll give you 9 some examples: There was a sports bar that went 10 in on Old World Third Street in the ten-hundred 11 block in about 2007. It was going to be a sports 12 bar. It was open two months. They never did move 13 in. We had a hearing. I had -- I was skeptical. 14 I raised some concerns. Not one single person 15 came and testified against the club; big crowd of 16 people testifying in favor. The club was 17 approved. Three months, three bodies on the 18 sidewalk. Two in front of Mader's front door. 19 They surrendered their license. That was the end 20 of that club. 21 And we had Pure who was on Wisconsin 22 Avenue. Again, that was open before I was elected 23 to the council. They receive its license, but 24 they were plodding along, had issues: gun play, 25 always gun play; always crowd control; always 210 1 incredible amounts of police resources; hearings; 2 renewals; some people showed up, some not in 3 support. Finally, it took a -- it took a shootout 4 in the front of Mo's Place for Steaks before that 5 license finally was surrendered. 6 We can go down the list. The premise 7 that we're talking about, though, the neighbors 8 talk about, well, they don't want this 9 establishment 20 feet from their front door. 10 There's been a nightclub 20 feet from their front 11 door for at least 20 years. It was the Velvet 12 Room, and after that there was Martini Mike's. 13 Martini Mike's; homicide in May 2010 in the middle 14 of Wisconsin Avenue, right smack in the dab 15 intersection of 3rd and Wisconsin. If that 16 doesn't impact retail development, I don't know 17 what does. But at the renewal hearing, there were 18 maybe four neighbors present from the 722 building 19 and the 734 building, and there were a handful of 20 community members. And they received a 90-day 21 suspension. The following year -- he took the 22 90-day suspension, never reopened, came up for 23 renewal, and then there was an issue regarding 24 some comments made at a show. And the principal 25 objectors were not the neighbors or the downtown 211 1 business improvement district; it was members of 2 the African-American community, the music 3 community that came down and objected: Homer 4 Blow. I remember it very vividly. He came in and 5 basically objected to the renewal of this license 6 and it was, in fact, not renewed, which opened the 7 door for Mr. Ferraro to come in and enter into a 8 new lease arrangement with the landlord. 9 The Velvet Room had frequent problems, 10 frequent issues of disorder, police issues, 11 consumption of police resources. Again, my 12 standard is behavior and particularly behavior 13 outside, because -- and consumption of police 14 resources. Because every cop that's downtown 15 patrolling a nightclub and serving as crowd 16 control are officers not in our neighborhoods and 17 not patrolling and not protecting our homeowners. 18 And that has always been the greatest criteria for 19 me. I'm satisfied that this operation is not 20 going to have those problems. Will it impact 21 retail development? Will it interfere with the 22 plans that have been put forward for retail 23 development? I suspect it will, but to a lesser 24 degree than probably any other use that would fill 25 up that venue as a bar or nightclub. 212 1 So you have to take into consideration, 2 if we're going to adopt this standard, we 3 basically have to not approve any new nightclubs 4 in any non-entertainment district areas of 5 Milwaukee, which clearly applies to 618, because 6 618 is not in an entertainment district. 618 7 North Water is two blocks from here, it's on 8 basically a commercial, retail street with retail 9 stores. Exactly what the plan is advocating for: 10 small retail, small storefront retail, boutique 11 shops, clothing shops, shoe shops, exactly what 12 the plan is advocating for. And here is this big 13 nightclub where most weekend nights involve chaos 14 and dozens of officers every single weekend. And 15 the retailers complain, but do the Business 16 Improvement people show up? Do the East Town 17 people show up? Westown people? Generally not. 18 Does DCD show up? Never. Do the -- does the 19 property owner who owns 618 on a month-to-month 20 lease show up and say -- and support his fellow 21 property owners and say, "This has to end"? No, 22 he supports them in their business pursuits. 23 So I, in the interest of intellectual 24 consistency here, I mean, I have a problem with 25 the arguments that have been made today, to be 213 1 perfectly honest with you, because carried to 2 their logical extension, then I'd better see the 3 same crowd of real estate agents and corporate 4 lawyers and organizational representatives for the 5 next renewal of 618, and they'd better come down 6 here in force and come down here demanding that 7 this club not be renewed. Because however bad Mr. 8 Ferraro's operation could be in impacting 9 residential or retail development, 618 has a 10 demonstrated record of negatively impacting retail 11 development and commercial development. 12 We even -- we even had evidence at the 13 last meeting that the federal government, General 14 Services Administration, whatever it is currently 15 called, sent a letter to the Chase Bank building 16 saying, "We will no longer consider you as a 17 possible federal office because of this nightclub 18 across the street." Now, if that doesn't affect 19 real estate development and property values, I 20 don't know what does. Where are all of the 21 opponents? 22 So what I'm getting to, it does appear 23 that the distinguishing characteristic here, the 24 unique characteristic here, is the content of the 25 entertainment. That does seem to be the bottom 214 1 line as to why people are upset here and why the 2 reception outpouring of opposition, and we just 3 don't see it in connection with other 4 establishments that have the same capacity that 5 are in commercial downtown locations; not 6 entertainment district locations, and have either 7 the potential for greater impact, negative impact, 8 or have a demonstrated record of greater negative 9 impact. 10 So I'm just asking this committee to be 11 consistent and to tease out any consideration of 12 content in entertainment type from our analysis 13 and make sure we're applying consistent standards. 14 I mean, I'm not prepared to recommend we 15 go forward with this, because that would, in a 16 way, be inconsistent with my position. I've 17 opposed the Lady Bug Club. I've opposed Club 18 Bari. We -- I take very tough positions with many 19 of these establishments. I respect the position 20 of the neighbors. Whatever their motivation is 21 for being here, their concerns are real. They 22 believe what they believe, and I accept that. But 23 I want this committee to make sure we're going to 24 be consistent and take out any consideration of 25 content, because if we do, it's hard to say no to 215 1 this man and not say no to all of these other 2 nightclubs that are either -- that are either the 3 same situation or worse. Thank you. 4 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 5 Attorney Olson, you can have the last 6 word before we go into committee. 7 MR. OLSON: Thank you very much. 8 Man, you deserve a public service award 9 for sitting through all of this today, I will tell 10 you. Thank you very much for your attention, and 11 I'll to try to be very, very crisp. 12 There hasn't been a high bar for 13 licensure at this location. You know, Martini 14 Mike's was re-licensed after its big problem, and 15 the Rusty's was licensed despite a checkered past 16 of its principal owner, and it's had some problems 17 and been re-licensed, and as Alderman Bauman 18 pointed out, without opposition from the 19 neighborhood. Ms. Randall tells me she read the 20 transcripts of those renewal hearings, and there's 21 nobody from the neighborhood showed up to object. 22 There is no objective basis for 23 nonrenewal here, or refusal to issue the license 24 here as we've pointed out. Mr. Ferraro has a 25 track record of running an establishment for nine 216 1 years in the city of Milwaukee with zero police 2 involvement for his misconduct or that of his 3 customers. He has a plan that we know is going to 4 work to address the concerns that people have come 5 in, when they've come in to talk about the bad 6 effects the gentlemen has -- the gentlemen's club 7 and the mythology of gentlemen's clubs. We're 8 talking about someone who has looked those 9 problems in the eye and learned how to solve them 10 in other locations or is prepared to use solutions 11 that have worked in other locations. 12 The parking situation is going to be 13 dealt with by attracting a clientele that travels 14 not so much by their own cars and also by offering 15 valet parking for those that do. And the valet 16 parking is a system that's going to work because 17 it's worked before here in the city of Milwaukee. 18 It's the same company with the same reserved 19 spaces that handles many restaurants in the nearby 20 area. 21 We know that he knows how to deal with 22 sound levels because he's dealt with it 23 significantly and successfully at his other clubs. 24 And he's going to spend a lot a money 25 rehabilitating this club physically, in part, to 217 1 the make sure that the sound insulation levels are 2 there. But he doesn't stop at insulation, he goes 3 right to the sound controls and makes sure that 4 the sound controls are not elevated on an ad-hoc 5 basis so that you have inconsistent problems with 6 sound outside. 7 We are told by some of the folks who 8 testified here that they know there's going to be 9 undesirable people coming here. Well, I think we 10 can trust Mr. Ferraro when he says that not 11 only does he have a dress code, but he has an 12 attitude code and a personality code, and 13 undesirable people don't get in the front door. 14 You don't solve that problem entirely by having an 15 upscale club that people can only afford to come 16 to after they've obtained some success in life and 17 have some disposable income in their pocket, but 18 you go a long way towards solving any problem 19 associated with undesirable clientele. 20 He's going to have a food operation all 21 of the time that he's open. And having a food 22 operation goes a long way towards making sure you 23 don't have people getting overly intoxicated. He 24 is going to have experienced management and a lot 25 of security on the premises. 218 1 When you look at all of the solutions 2 that he's prepared to implement, all of these 3 sometimes real, sometimes imaginary problems, I 4 think you have to say that the people that come in 5 and tell you their opinions about the kinds of 6 problems that are likely to arise here, they're 7 entitled to their own opinions, but they're not 8 based on fact; they're based on going into 9 somebody else's club somewhere that wasn't nearly 10 as well run as the Silk franchise has been, and -- 11 or they're based on pure mythology. 12 I would make one final point about 13 whether you can expect undesirable patrons. Who 14 came in and told us we were going to have 15 undesirable patrons? Well, people who came in and 16 said, "I've been to strip clubs." The people that 17 said they are the patrons that you have. And they 18 didn't look all that undesirable to me. You get a 19 cross section of the community. You get people 20 who are traveling out of town away from their 21 friends and families, they want something to do, 22 maybe something that would considered to be a 23 little bit adventurous. 24 The objectors that we had today, I 25 think, were of two kinds: we had moral objectors 219 1 in sheep's clothing. People that said, "I just 2 don't like this sort of entertainment," or "I 3 don't want my kids to know that there is such a 4 thing as a burlesque club. I don't want my kids 5 to be asking 'why are the dancers leaving by the 6 back door?' Because then I'll have to explain to 7 them that there is such a thing as burlesque clubs 8 in the world." Those are moral objections based 9 on content of the entertainment program, and there 10 is not a valid reason for denying the liquor 11 license. 12 Then I think we have the pie-in-the-sky 13 city planners, people who want a retail 14 establishment here and will oppose anything that's 15 not a retail establishment. And I think you have 16 to look to the landlord, Mr. Weir. The building 17 owner would love to have a retail establishment 18 there if he could make more money on it than he 19 could on a gentlemen's club or a nightclub, but he 20 says it's just not going to work in this economic 21 climate and at that location with no parking ready 22 to hand. 23 Why then did we have so many people 24 coming here to object to this particular club 25 that's going be, by all indications, an innocuous 220 1 presence in the neighborhood? Maybe -- maybe the 2 worst thing you can say about it it's not going to 3 have pretty windows like they want to have in 4 their glorious plan. But that doesn't drive 5 people out to make objections by the dozen like we 6 had here. 7 I think that's a lesson, that this sort 8 of entertainment rouses deep moral indignation in 9 people. But again, that sort of heckler's veto 10 and those moral objections, which are the only 11 explanation for why we have dozens of objectors 12 here and we don't have dozens of objectors even 13 where we have homicides, they're not a valid 14 reason for this committee to make a decision. 15 We don't have any formal city objections 16 from professional people in the city in the know 17 relating to traffic or parking or litter or sound 18 or management or security. But what we do know is 19 this: we do know that every other place John 20 Ferraro and his partners opened up faced the same 21 kind of public opposition initially, and in every 22 place they've become a valued member of their 23 community to the point where they get the gushing 24 letter from the mayor of Juneau where they're 25 right on the downtown square that you all have in 221 1 front of you. 2 ALDERMAN KOVAC: He didn't mention the 3 $5,000 for cameras in the letter. 4 MR. OLSON: He just wants to get some 5 rails in Juneau. 6 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Is he a customer? 7 MR. FERRARO: What's that? 8 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Was the mayor of 9 Juneau a customer? 10 MR. FERRARO: I think he's been in there 11 once for the open house. The open house, and 12 that's it. He said, "It's not my cup of tea. But 13 as long as I don't have any problems, your 14 problems, and the police aren't being called 15 there, it's not going to be an issue." And we 16 have not had one police call there. 17 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 18 MR. OLSON: Celebrate diversity in many 19 ways in downtown Milwaukee, and celebrate 20 diversity and entertainment. Celebrate the First 21 Amendment. Celebrate freedom of expression, the 22 freedom of people to see the kind of entertainment 23 that they want to see when they come to a big 24 city. And the freedom of my client to present the 25 kind of entertainment that they want to that is 222 1 perfectly legal in zoning. Don't knuckle under to 2 moral objectors who would have you base a decision 3 on a reason that's prohibited by the First 4 Amendment. Thank you. 5 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. We're in 6 committee. 7 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 8 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 9 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac and 10 then Alderwoman -- do you want to go first? 11 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I don't want to make 12 a motion. 13 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Alderwoman 14 Coggs. 15 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I share, and I'm sure 16 most of us share Alderman Bauman's desire to want 17 neighbors to come out on all of the licenses, 18 because we often know that places are a problem, 19 and because there're not enough neighbors to come 20 out to share what they may call our office about 21 or e-mail our office about, but we need them to 22 personally to come here and testify; they're just 23 not there. But for many of us, that creates, you 24 know, the existence of problem establishments that 25 it's so difficult for us to get them shut down 223 1 because of the lack of neighborhood involvement. 2 So I would share in that frustration with Alderman 3 Bauman. 4 But I also have to say that I appreciate 5 when neighbors do come. For me, it is less of 6 whether you came last time or not and more of the 7 content and quality of testimony that you provided 8 about this specific issue in front of us. And for 9 me, that's weighed on an individual witness basis 10 by the neighbors. So I appreciate those who did 11 come out and share their point of view and for 12 that which we can legally consider of the content 13 of what you all said in this decision. I know I 14 will consider it. 15 And also, for the downtown groups, I 16 know it's a couple of the representatives who 17 testified today come a lot. And I don't always 18 agree with what they may present or not, but I 19 just don't want people watching or other neighbors 20 to feel like, "Oh, if I didn't come to the last 21 one, I can't come to this one either because it's 22 going to look bad or because somebody might think 23 da, da, da." I think the more neighborhood 24 involvement the better. But I would agree with 25 Alderman Bauman that consistency is important. 224 1 But I enjoy the fact that the neighbors come. 2 So I also just wanted to say that I 3 think -- there's been brought up about the history 4 of this location with the Martini Mike's shooting 5 with the, I believe, the attorney said 72 police 6 incidents at this location. And I think, you 7 know, it keeps being said that there's no reason, 8 no reason, no reason why this person should be 9 denied, and I can't help but to think that whether 10 with the shooting or 72 incidents and with the 11 problems that the applicant speaks to, what others 12 have said existed at the existing one and the 13 previous one, and even some before, that sometimes 14 maybe it's just not a good location period for an 15 alcohol license. Not because it's a strip joint, 16 but because of the very history that you all laid 17 out. Like, maybe it's just not a good fit. 18 So as the discussion went on today, I 19 was just thinking about that. Because I know 20 there's the thought that everyone just hates strip 21 joints, but you laid out a history of problems at 22 this establishment. I know the applicant feels 23 like he can change that around, but maybe for some 24 neighbors, this is just the straw to demonstrate 25 that these types of licenses might not be needed 225 1 at that location given the history. So that's 2 just -- I was just sharing my thoughts. 3 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 4 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 5 Alderwoman Coggs took a lot of the words 6 out of my mouth. I think it was very well said. 7 I, frankly, agree with Alderman Bauman's critique 8 of the intellectual honesty of our city planners 9 in the number of cases he mentioned, especially in 10 the case of the Marriott. That was rank hypocrisy 11 at the city level, but this really isn't the 12 format to discuss that issue. 13 I just want to say on the record that 14 Alderman Bauman has a memory like a steel trap and 15 he has consistency, and not just consistency, but 16 intellectual honesty, and I really appreciate that 17 and I'm glad he calls a duck a duck. 18 Now, in terms of the intellectual 19 honesty and consistency of this committee, I think 20 it needs to be stated that we, I think, understand 21 pretty well; there's two new members, but one has 22 been on before, three for the last four years, and 23 one who was even before on council watched closely 24 a number of nightclubs in his current district for 25 the neighborhood level or council level. And so 226 1 we have to, all of us here, understand the First 2 Amendment. And you will note, not just in this 3 case, but Alderwoman Coggs and I have been 4 adamant. We have both been consistently 5 frustrated over the last four years at why people 6 instead of talking about the secondary effects, 7 talk about hip-hop music. And very upset that 8 people -- even though they often overlap quite a 9 bit of convergence and even cause and effect in 10 some cases, but to let hip-hop music be the guise 11 to secondary effect of large groups of people 12 attending nightclubs and the effects that it can 13 have on shootings, arguments, traffic, people on 14 the streets. Sometimes it happens because there 15 is hip-hop music, but that doesn't mean that 16 hip-hop music needs to be regulated by this 17 committee. And we actually changed the law to 18 reflect that. But we no longer worry about what 19 kind of music, we worry about your capacity, you 20 security and your litter. We worry about 21 secondary negative effects. Obviously, in the 22 case of a renewal, we can be extremely rigorous 23 about the last 12 months and what evidence we 24 have. And we're not talking about hypotheticals 25 in the case of renewal of whether we renew or not. 227 1 And as we've discussed already in this marathon 2 hearing, there is a difference legally with the 3 higher standard for what we can consider. 4 On new licenses, we are forced, like 5 neighbors, to guess a little bit. There's always 6 -- whenever anyone says, whether it's a strip club 7 or a nightclub or a bar/restaurant or a lounge, 8 people who watch this hearing or go to enough 9 neighborhood meetings know the magic words. They 10 know to talk about high-end quality food and when 11 the amount of times that actually happens is less 12 than is promised by a large margin. So we have to 13 be, you know, there's no element of guessing when 14 it comes to new licenses. And I think Alderman 15 Bauman's -- Alderwoman Coggs' comment about 16 Alderman Bauman said is right on the money. Just 17 because neighbors were missing in the past, I 18 think if people decide to show up and decide to 19 actually read downtown plans and follow them, and 20 people decide to express their opinion about 21 secondary negative effects, I think we need to 22 meet them where they are licensed when they come 23 and hope they come more often. 24 So I think -- and the -- Attorney Olson 25 made some very interesting, very good arguments. 228 1 He talks about the mythology of gentlemen's clubs. 2 I guess you weren't talking about the cult of 3 Dionysus in that mythology sort of activity, you 4 were talking about what you think are false fears. 5 And I completely agree that some of the witnesses 6 here probably did have false fears, and some of 7 your questioning exposed that. But looking at the 8 totality of the testimony, which is what this 9 committee often has to do in cases like this where 10 we often have dozens of people on both sides; in 11 this case, we've got several people on one side, 12 and we have -- how many, four supporters; three 13 for whom either owned the building or owned the 14 business or was one neighbor, and nearby -- one 15 person was a neighbor and worked around the corner 16 who testified. Now, that may well be because 17 people who plan on showing up at this windowless 18 establishment also don't plan on coming to the 19 hearing that's on Channel 25 to talk about how 20 they can't wait. And that is an extra hurdle, I 21 suppose, this type of business runs. And if the 22 mayor of Juneau was a regular customer, he 23 probably wouldn't want you to say so. 24 But I will say that, you know, I don't 25 know much about Juneau, Wisconsin, but I have a 229 1 feeling it's a lot different than three blocks 2 from Juneau Avenue. And so based on the people 3 that are experts on the west side of downtown 4 Milwaukee, which as Alderman Bauman mentioned 5 includes the pie-in-the-sky city planners, it 6 includes real estate agents, corporate lawyers, 7 organizational reps, we consistently heard from 8 them, that they had serious objections and 9 concerns based on negative secondary effects. We 10 all know what those are, Alderman Bauman listed 11 them, and heard them from other nightclubs. And 12 then we heard from real estate agents, we heard 13 from people who have done a lot of work with this 14 committee, with police, with our urban planners to 15 revitalize downtown. And I agree with Mr. Weir 16 that it is not as revitalized as we would like it 17 to be, and I agree that a vacancy in a store is 18 not encouraging, but I also think that given the 19 fact that the Grand Avenue Mall is beginning to, 20 as Marv Albert would say, show some signs, showing 21 some signs, I feel like the life is coming back. 22 And I think we've heard from experts that the kind 23 of revitalization we're hoping for and we've 24 planned for, whether it's pie in the sky or not, 25 we planned for it, and I think it is important. 230 1 It's better late than never to be consistent with 2 our license. 3 And, frankly, it is not -- I enjoyed the 4 rhetorical device of calling them pretty windows 5 and their glorious plan, what Beth Nicols referred 6 to as activation and engagement. I mean, there's 7 different euphemisms you can use to describe the 8 different concepts, but the concept of pedestrian 9 friendly, the concept of the street as a room, and 10 the concept that private space feels public and 11 feels inviting -- and this you know, we can talk 12 about the mythology of gentlemen's clubs all we 13 want, but to be real, there's a mythology of 14 Milwaukee out there that we want to change. I 15 mean, I would speak differently on the sidewalk 16 than I will inside this building about where that 17 mythology is coming from, but I'll just leave it 18 at that. But there's a mythology of Milwaukee 19 that we need to change. There's people who go 20 around saying the Grand Avenue Mall is an abject 21 failure; other people haven't been to the mall in 22 years and don't know what's really going on. Just 23 like the people that are saying Milwaukee isn't 24 safe, it ain't perfect, but it's also safe. It's 25 a safe, viable economically successful place; not 231 1 as successful and we want it to be. And I do not 2 think based on my opinion and opinions of the -- 3 there are a number of experts in this room, 4 essentially un-refuted except by accusations 5 they're wearing some kind of -- moral objectors in 6 sheep's clothing, was another phrase; you're 7 calling them wolves without calling them wolves. 8 But I don't think they're wolves; I think it could 9 be that some people have false fears. But I think 10 a number of people have very accurate and 11 reasonable estimations of what will happen to this 12 street and to the downtown area if we go, this 13 license is approved. And I believe those people 14 think there will be negative secondary effects of 15 the economy. And let's be clear, the residents of 16 downtown, this is not like a neighborhood, like 17 you know, earlier we had North Avenue, we had 18 Riverwest on the agenda, and there's issues that 19 go on in neighborhoods. Downtown is a 20 neighborhood too. But it's a neighborhood where 21 the neighbors aren't just small businesses and 22 residents, although there are that, but they're 23 also major corporate anchors, and they're major -- 24 and they're people of serious metropolitan 25 substance when it comes to comparing us to other 232 1 cities and planning for their city's future that 2 those people live in. Just like if a -- just like 3 the same bar could work on one street corner and 4 not work on another, because the neighbors on one 5 block are willing to accept it; the neighbors on 6 the other aren't. That is a precedent this 7 committee has consistently shown, that we listen 8 to neighbors, neighbors showing that matters. And 9 neighbors of this establishment have showed up, 10 and they provided a myriad of objections, some of 11 which, I agree, we can't consider, but many of 12 which are causing me to make their objections 13 about the negative secondary effects of this 14 operational plan, are causing me to make my motion 15 to deny the application. 16 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: We have a motion by 17 Alderman Kovac to deny based on the reasons he 18 just shared with the committee. 19 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 20 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 21 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: On the motion, I think 22 it's pretty clear that I have a history with 23 Mr. Ferraro and many of his partners. I can tell 24 you that if this motion fails, and I'm fairly 25 certain that it will, that the downtown will have 233 1 lost, maybe not a jewel in the sense that they 2 were going to have to be fairly well covered up 3 and out of site, but I think that they will have 4 lost a group of entrepreneurs that would have done 5 everything in their power to make sure that there 6 were no shootings, that there was no drug use, 7 that there was nobody being run over by a vehicle 8 on the sidewalk, the prostitution just would not 9 -- I mean, I've been downtown, I've been 10 approached by prostitutes. I can't imagine why 11 because -- I must've had a lot of money in my 12 pocket that night because I don't think of myself 13 as all that good looking. But I just -- I feel 14 that it's unfortunate that the neighbors came out 15 as strongly as they did without having much real 16 experience, and in some cases were actually 17 hypocritical: "I go to strip clubs, but I don't 18 want one next to me." That's a wonderful 19 attitude, and that's why I kind of asked why -- or 20 that one woman had a problem with this facility 21 being over by the Bradley Center, "I don't want it 22 there either." So I, you know, like I said, I'm 23 fairly certain this is going to go down in flames, 24 but I think that the downtown entertainment 25 environment will be lesser for it. Thank you. 234 1 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Any further 2 comments or questions on the motion by Alderman 3 Kovac to deny? 4 We'll take a roll call on that. 5 THE CLERK: On the motion of denial, 6 Alderman Perez. 7 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Aye. 8 THE CLERK: Alderman Dudzik. 9 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Aye. 10 THE CLERK: Alderman Kovac. 11 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Aye. 12 THE CLERK: Alderwoman Coggs. 13 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Aye. 14 THE CLERK: Mr. Chair. 15 CHAIRMAN ZIELINSKI: Aye. 16 The motion passes on a 5 to nothing 17 vote. Thank you. 18 Next item. We're going to go back to 19 the item -- time right now is 5:15. 20 21 22 23 24 25 235 1 STATE OF WISCONSIN ) ) SS: 2 COUNTY OF WALWORTH ) 3 4 5 I, KAREN RENEE, Court Reporter and 6 Notary Public in and for the State of Wisconsin, do 7 hereby certify that the above hearing of the LICENSES 8 COMMITTEE was recorded by me on June 1, 2012, and 9 reduced to writing under my personal direction. 10 I further certify that I am not a 11 relative or employee or attorney or counsel of any of 12 the parties, or a relative or employee of such attorney 13 or counsel, or financially interested directly or 14 indirectly in this action. 15 In witness whereof I have hereunder set 16 my hand and affixed my seal of office at Burlington, 17 Wisconsin, this 20th day of June, 2012. 18 19 ___________________________ 20 Karen Renee Court Reporter and Notary Public 21 In and for the State of Wisconsin 22 23 My Commission Expires: March 06, 2016. 24 25