CITY OF MILWAUKEE LICENSES COMMITTEE * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * In the Matter of: 20 BELOW, LLC Entertainment Club License Renewal Application Sean Pliss, "CLUB SUGAR" 126 East Mineral Street * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The above-entitled cause, taken under and pursuant to Section 804.05 of the Wisconsin Statutes, before KAREN RENEE, Court Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Wisconsin, on September 9, 2011. 2 1 * * * * * 2 I N D E X 3 4 Testimony Given By: Page 5 Mr. Ray........................................... 15 Alderman Witkowiak................................ 34 6 7 Made Part Of The Official Record: Page 8 E-Mail Submission By Mr. Pliss................. 50 Additional E-Mails From Walter Allen Majewski.. 50 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Our final item on the 3 morning agenda is for Sean Pliss, agent for 20 4 Below, LLC. And this matter is on remand from 5 Milwaukee County Circuit Court Branch 28, Case No. 6 10CV10358 for renewal license. The Committee 7 recommendation to the Public Entertainment Club 8 License for renewal application dated April 13, 9 2010, as agent for 20 Below for Sugar for the 10 license here 2010 through '11, and it includes the 11 public entertainment club renewal application 12 dated June 9, 2011, as agent for 20 Below. 13 Mr. Stephens, do you want to provide us 14 with some clarification on what we are taking up 15 here for this morning? 16 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Sure. Thank you, 17 Mr. Chair. 18 As the notice indicates, that was sent 19 to the license renewal applicant and that you have 20 summarized, this matter had been pending for some 21 time in the Milwaukee County Circuit Court on a 22 judicial review of a decision by the City of 23 Milwaukee to not renew the Public Entertainment 24 Club License of Sugar last year. After 25 approximately a year's worth of litigation, the 4 1 circuit, the court reversed the decision of the 2 City of Milwaukee to not renew the license and 3 requested that this Committee again hear that 4 license application for the licensing year 5 2010/2011. 6 The basis for the reversal from the 7 Circuit Court was that the Licenses Committee last 8 year voted to renew the license with a suspension; 9 however, the full Common Council, thereafter, on 10 the substitute motion by the local alderman, voted 11 to completely nonrenew the license. From a 12 Court's perspective, that was an act that the 13 Council could not do as to this case. Therefore, 14 the Court, rather than just ordering the City of 15 Milwaukee to issue the license from last year, 16 ordered this Committee to reconsider it; however, 17 recognizing the pragmatics of it, the Court 18 indicated that we could have the hearing for the 19 next year at the same time. So if you will, we 20 will theoretically be having a licensing hearing 21 today on a renewal for the 2010/2011 year as well 22 as the 2011/2012 year. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So the police reports -- 24 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: The police report. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- and any neighborhood 5 1 activity that has been witnessed will be open for 2 consideration by the Committee. So instead of a 3 one-year window, we're actually looking at the 4 possibility of a two-year window. 5 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: A two-year window. 6 So basically, every fact that goes back to April 7 of 2009, theoretically, is game for this Committee 8 to decide its recommendation to the full Common 9 Council. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, thank you for 11 clarifying that. 12 Are there any questions Committee 13 members have on that? 14 All right, Mr. Pliss, we'll swear you in 15 at this time. 16 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 17 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 18 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 19 is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 20 truth? 21 MR. PLISS: I do. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And if you would provide 23 us please with your name and mailing address? 24 MR. PLISS: Sean Pliss, 126 East Mineral 25 Street, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 6 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And Mr. Pliss, do you 2 acknowledge receiving a notice of today's meeting 3 with the possibility that the application may be 4 denied? 5 MR. PLISS: Yes. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 7 This is a renewal, so we should have no 8 holds. 9 Sergeant, we'll go to you for the police 10 report, please. 11 OFFICER RADEN: On 3/20/2010, Milwaukee 12 police conducted a license premise check at 126 13 East Mineral Street, Club Sugar. Officers 14 observed the hallway leading to the emergency exit 15 was unlit. The licensee, Michael L. Gross, told 16 officers, "I had the light on, don't know who 17 turned it off." Michael Gross was cited for safe 18 egress from all entrance doors, serving rooms. A 19 citation was not located in the City of Milwaukee 20 municipal court information system. 21 On 5/15/2010, Milwaukee police conducted 22 a traffic stop in the 100 block of East Mineral 23 Street of an auto that was on the wrong side of 24 the street impeding traffic. The operator of the 25 vehicle told police he had just left Club Sugar at 7 1 126 East Mineral. The operator of the vehicle 2 received several citations. 3 On 7/17/2010, Milwaukee police were 4 dispatched to 126 East Mineral Street, Club Sugar, 5 for a fight. The investigation revealed two 6 patrons engaged in a fight while inside the 7 business. The subjects were escorted from the 8 business by security and were later observed 9 fighting again in the street. Both subjects were 10 cited for and subsequently convicted in Milwaukee 11 municipal court for disorderly conduct. 12 On 8/15/2010, Milwaukee police were 13 dispatched to 5000 West Chambers, St. Joseph's 14 Hospital, regarding a battery complaint. The 15 complainant told police she had been battered 16 while at Club Sugar at 126 East Mineral. Both the 17 licensee, Michael Gross, and assistant manager, 18 Sean Pliss, told police there had been an argument 19 in the club but no fight. These statements were 20 contradicted by the battery victim and by a 21 security guard at the club. Officers determined 22 that the plaintiff sustained a laceration to her 23 upper lip and had a tooth knocked out as a result 24 of being punched in the mouth while in Club Sugar. 25 The police report was filed regarding. 8 1 On 10/10/2010 at 12:36 a.m., Milwaukee 2 police while on routine patrol observed a large 3 crowd of people as well as traffic congestion in 4 the streets in the area of 126 East Mineral 5 Street, Club Sugar. Officers observed vehicles 6 leaving the business as well as picking up patrons 7 from the business. Many of these vehicles were 8 playing music at volumes that could be heard from 9 at least one block away. The vehicles were 10 stopped in traffic while the occupants danced in 11 the street. During this incident, security from 12 the business flagged down officers and advised 13 them that it appeared a fight was about to break 14 out in the parking lot of the BP gas station at 15 1009 South 1st Street. Officers were able to 16 disperse the crowd, and no citations or additional 17 police reports were filed as a result of this 18 incident. 19 On 11/7/2010 at 12:31 a.m., Milwaukee 20 police while on a routine patrol observed a large 21 group of subjects as well as traffic congestion in 22 the streets in front of 126 East Mineral, Club 23 Sugar. The vehicles were cruising in the area and 24 several vehicles were illegally parked creating a 25 traffic jam. While on the scene regarding this 9 1 incident, there was one call for service regarding 2 a trouble with subjects at the business. No 3 citations or additional police reports were filed 4 as a result of this incident. 5 On 1/6/2011, the applicant was cited at 6 1602 North Humboldt in the City of Milwaukee for a 7 dog/cat license required. A guilty finding on 8 4/14/2011 with a $45 fine. 9 On 2/26/2011, Milwaukee police were 10 dispatched to an auto theft complaint at 1009 11 South 1st Street. The complainant told police 12 that her car had just been stolen from the parking 13 lot of the BP gas station at 1009 South 1st. The 14 investigating officers later determined that 15 officers in an undercover vehicle observed this 16 crime take place. The officers in the undercover 17 vehicle were able to recover the stolen vehicle 18 and apprehend the driver. During the interview, 19 the auto theft suspect told police he had just 20 left Club Sugar at 126 East Mineral. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 22 Mr. Pliss, are there any questions, 23 comments that you have? Are there any items in 24 the police report that you wish to dispute or 25 object? 10 1 MR. PLISS: I guess I would object to 2 the 8/15 with the battery. That was something 3 that there was no evidence provided to us about 4 this person ever being at the club. And then they 5 put in the police report that we said that, you 6 know, we didn't know about it, that no fight 7 happened in the club. Well, no fight did happen 8 in the club that night, and we had no idea who 9 they were talking about. They are talking about 10 that they're at St. Joe's or Columbia. We don't 11 even know who this person is. So I would object 12 to that. 13 I guess I would object to the dog 14 license, the auto theft and a burnt-out light 15 bulb, as I don't think those really pertain to 16 this license. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by Committee? 18 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac. 20 ALDERMAN KOVAC: The police report 21 indicates -- I guess maybe you wouldn't know this, 22 but they indicated that you had a security 23 officer. Maybe this is more of a question for the 24 officer. This indicates in the police report that 25 not just the victim but the security officer 11 1 contradicted that statement about there not being 2 a fight in the club that night. 3 OFFICER RADEN: It states in the report 4 these statements were contradicted by a battery 5 victim and the security guard of the club. 6 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Do you have more 7 details on that, what the security guard said? 8 OFFICER RADEN: Do you want me to read 9 it into the record? 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Why don't you clarify? 11 Yeah. 12 OFFICER RADEN: It says, Officer Rode 13 (phonetic), "I spoke with security guard, Officer 14 Robert L. Davis who stated there was a physical 15 altercation inside the premise. Robert stated 16 that he along with other security personnel 17 escorted all parties from the premise. Robert 18 stated that while people were being removed, he 19 did not observe the victim, Shania, had a missing 20 tooth. Robert stated that while they were outside 21 the location, an argument occurred and while he 22 was trying to prevent another fight, the victim 23 stated to him, 'He knocked out my teeth.' Robert 24 stated he remained with the victim and stated that 25 he would call for the police." 12 1 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So my question to the 2 applicant would be, were you unaware of that that 3 night? 4 MR. PLISS: No, I think we told them 5 that there was some pushing and shoving in the 6 club. My security escorted them out, which he 7 said they did. And then it continued outside; the 8 police came. But as far as a tooth being knocked 9 out, when the guy left, he had all of his teeth. 10 So when did he lose his teeth at the club? 11 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Well, that's slightly 12 different than what you said three minutes ago. 13 Three minutes ago, you said there was nothing 14 happening in the club that night. Now you've just 15 clarified -- 16 MR. PLISS: I'm just saying on this 17 incident. But the person at Columbia or the 18 hospital, how do I know that this is the same 19 person? There was no evidence as to who this guy 20 was or this girl or whoever. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So now you're amending, 22 you're saying that there was a fight that night, 23 you're just not sure it was the same -- 24 MR. PLISS: I said there was an 25 altercation, there was pushing and shoving; 13 1 pushing and shoving continued outside of the club; 2 when everybody left, everybody had their teeth. 3 That's what I'm saying. 4 ALDERMAN KOVAC: That is a lot more 5 clear than what you said when you initially 6 objected. 7 MR. PLISS: Okay, all right. Well 8 then -- 9 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Because initially, you 10 said nothing happened. That was three minutes 11 ago. I remember it. Now -- 12 MR. PLISS: Nobody got their teeth 13 knocked out. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The altercation that 15 continued, was it on the sidewalk or an immediate 16 area adjacent to the entrance/exit? 17 MR. PLISS: Yeah, I mean, as we're 18 escorting them out, people are still pushing and 19 shoving. It probably lasted for a couple minutes 20 and then it was dispersed. And then the cops were 21 eventually called. By that time, everybody -- 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You don't dispute the 23 possibility that somebody took a punch at someone 24 during that? 25 MR. PLISS: I didn't see any. I didn't 14 1 see any punches thrown. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm not saying that you 3 did see it. It's a possibility -- 4 MR. PLISS: Sure, there is the 5 possibility of that. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm not saying it 7 occurred either, I'm saying that it's possible. 8 At least there was an allegation later on that 9 somebody claims that at some point. Whether they 10 left your place with their teeth, the allegation, 11 when they showed up at the hospital, they were 12 missing some. 13 MR. PLISS: Yeah, but, again, I can't 14 tell the cops that if I don't see it. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. All right. So 16 those additional items besides that you do -- 17 MR. PLISS: Yeah, I guess those are -- 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Is there anything else 19 that you wish to provide any clarification to? I 20 just want to make sure you have that opportunity. 21 MR. PLISS: No, not really. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. This matter is 23 cited for the possibility of having neighborhood 24 testimony. We have a couple of the individuals 25 present here. Can I just see a show of hands of 15 1 anyone wishing to come forward and provide 2 testimony here on this particular matter? One 3 individual. 4 Sir, if you wish to come forward, we'll 5 hear from you. We'll have to swear you in. If 6 you could raise your right hand, please? 7 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 8 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 9 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 10 is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 11 truth? 12 MR. RAY: I do. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sir, we'll need your 14 name and address please for the record. 15 MR. RAY: Victor Ray, 1137 South 3rd 16 Street, Milwaukee. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And your testimony, sir. 18 MR. RAY: Well, I've been dealing with, 19 as a resident, I've been dealing with Club Sugar 20 for almost three years now. It started with a 21 meeting at the Hope House when Sean was present 22 with the other owners, and a group of neighbors 23 got together and had been discussing the -- I use 24 the word not lightly -- "mayhem" that's in the 25 area from the residents. Club Sugar hasn't 16 1 improved. It's gone bad. Just recently it was 2 noted, on 10/10 by the sergeant, about mayhem in 3 front of Club Sugar. That was the night that the 4 mayhem continued into the neighborhoods. They 5 circled the blocks, two cars wide. Police were 6 dispatched to the neighborhood, and the police 7 chased them out of the neighborhood, but it was 8 probably about anywhere from 50 to 80 cars coming 9 through there. 10 On 7/23, just recently, I was out 11 walking the dog on the corner of 1st and Mineral. 12 There was a carload of four girls, another car 13 pulled over, a brown bag went through one window 14 and cash went through the other. I yelled at 15 them, which was probably stupid, because I thought 16 I saw something in the car that I didn't like. So 17 I pulled back, but I stood and waited to see where 18 those girls went, and they crossed the street on 19 1st Street and went into Club Sugar. I'm 20 assuming, my assumption is that it was drugs, or 21 someone paid for a lot of money in a bag. This 22 continues to be the case. 23 I would applaud Sean for one occasion 24 during August, he did get word through e-mail, I 25 think it was, that there was possibly going to be 17 1 some trouble at the club coming from State Fair 2 Park, which the police had reported to us. He did 3 close his club early, but I think that that might 4 only be because there is a license pending on the 5 renewal of this license. 6 As a resident, I feel I have a right, as 7 an owner of the house and as an owner of property 8 for my people who rent from me, a right to have 9 quiet, a right to my own property to be safe in my 10 neighborhood. 11 And I think the police can attest that 12 the BP -- I won't even go near the BP when Club 13 Sugar is open because it is just a complete 14 parking lot of cars and kids running in and out 15 and very disrespectful in their, the way they 16 talk. 17 I would recommend that this renewal not 18 be granted to Club Sugar. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 20 Questions by Committee? 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac. 23 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So can you -- you 24 mentioned the one incident in October, you 25 mentioned the incident you saw with someone 18 1 potentially buying drugs, is there any other 2 specific -- we don't need dates, but specific 3 incidents you want to outline, because we need to 4 make our decision on -- I mean, your general 5 testimony helps, but the more specific you can be 6 about what happened, how often you see things like 7 this. 8 MR. RAY: I would say it happens at 9 least once a month. It does get quiet for a 10 while. If we complain and we complain to the 11 police and alderman, the alderman gets cameras put 12 on the corner, the trouble seems to stop. But it 13 always comes back around. It -- I would encourage 14 you -- I know I can't encourage you guys, but I 15 would encourage you guys to come out on a night 16 when Sugar is open just to see what us neighbors 17 put up with. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: What specifically are 19 you encountering? I mean, is it loud noise? Is 20 it -- 21 MR. RAY: We're encountering kids 22 changing in the cars. You know, kids come with 23 clothes, then all of a sudden, they put on these 24 slinky little outfits, so they're changing in the 25 cars. So if you want to look at it that way, if I 19 1 was next to the car, there would be nudity in the 2 car. 3 There are kids who are using the 4 parkways as toilets next to the car. 5 There is trash thrown around the grounds 6 there. 7 It's -- it really is noisy when Club 8 Sugar lets out or prior to Club Sugar even 9 starting. The incident on 7/23 was at 10:41 in 10 the evening. It's -- it is really bad. 11 And I know some of the neighbors have 12 submitted some videos to you to show you what goes 13 on in the streets. It is -- 14 MR. PLISS: Objection. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We -- 16 MR. PLISS: You can't -- 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We don't have that. 18 Just so you're aware, we don't have that before 19 us, so. But you can continue with -- 20 MR. RAY: Okay. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- what your -- 22 MR. RAY: I thought that was a matter of 23 record for the city. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't have it. I 25 haven't seen it, so. 20 1 MR. RAY: Okay. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So it's not going to be 3 included. 4 MR. RAY: Okay. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I mean, what you 6 witnessed is obviously your testimony. So when 7 you describe noise -- 8 MR. RAY: Loud music in the cars. A lot 9 of yelling, some obscenities. I've walked outside 10 of my house when cars have been cruising by, and 11 I'm kind of going like this (indicating) as they 12 are going, because they are speeding through. I 13 have four stop signs on that corner there, they 14 flee right through it. I'm going like this 15 (indicating). The finger gestures, I'm sure, are 16 not telling me to go one way. The -- it -- and I 17 know it's Club Sugar because these are young kids. 18 You know, we have other problems in our area with 19 clubs, but I can -- these are young kids. Either 20 these are young kids who are out at 12:30, 1:30, 21 2:00 in the morning -- 22 But on my corner of Washington and 3rd, 23 there were three cars that were parked, young kids 24 consuming alcohol one evening. I walked over and 25 I said, "You guys got to keep -- get going." 21 1 Well, then they told me this is a public place, 2 they could do whatever they wanted. 3 MR. PLISS: Objection, this has nothing 4 to do with Sugar. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'll allow the testimony 6 to continue here. 7 MR. RAY: So I said to them, "You have 8 got to get going." And they wouldn't leave. So I 9 pulled out my cell phone to make a call. These 10 were young kids. And I can tell they were, at 11 least I assumed that they were, from Club Sugar 12 because it was about the time that Club Sugar was 13 getting out. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: How many other clubs are 15 in the immediate vicinity, or taverns? 16 MR. RAY: We've got a number. It's an 17 entertainment district, so we have a number of 18 clubs in that area. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: What would be the 20 closest one, about a block away, half-block away, 21 on the same block face, two blocks away? 22 MR. RAY: Actually, Club Sugar is the 23 closest to my house. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And its proximity to 25 your house is what? Around the corner? 22 1 MR. RAY: About five blocks. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: It's about five blocks 3 away? 4 MR. RAY: Mm mm. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So how is that you are 6 attributing individual youth five blocks away to 7 Club Sugar? 8 MR. RAY: That one incident, I, as I 9 said, I'm assuming it was Club Sugar, but the 10 other -- all of the other incidents, I walk my dog 11 continuously with other neighbors, we walk around 12 the neighborhood there. I've witnessed the kids 13 going from their cars, when they've changed, into 14 Club Sugar. I've stood on the corner there. I've 15 got people over at Club Sugar, I know, looking at 16 me, you know, but I don't get any closer than the 17 corner of 1st and Mineral. 18 And, Alderman Bohl, we -- I've been 19 putting up with this for three years, almost three 20 years with Club Sugar. It's got to stop. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Can I just ask you, when 22 you indicate that, the distance of five blocks, 23 are you five blocks on an east-west basis, or are 24 you a north-south basis? 25 MR. RAY: East and south. You kind got 23 1 to come down -- I'm sorry, west and south from 2 Club Sugar. I'm on 3rd Street; Club Sugar is on 3 1st Street. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The reason I asked that 5 is, typically, a north-south block is four or five 6 times the length of what an east-west portion of a 7 block is. Five east-west, if I were to say the 8 difference between 92nd and 97th Street, that 9 would probably be less than two blocks if you were 10 going north/south; even though you would say five 11 blocks going east/west, I mean, in terms of 12 distance it gives you closer proximity. 13 Additional questions by Committee? 14 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Stephens. 16 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Ray, I'd like to 17 clarify a couple of your statements. 18 MR. RAY: Sure. 19 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: You've described or 20 used the words "trouble" and "mayhem" as you've 21 testified, and then you clarified with questioning 22 what you meant by that, and you meant loud noise, 23 correct? 24 MR. RAY: Right. 25 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And you testified as 24 1 to that noise coming from loud music and the cars? 2 MR. RAY: Yes. 3 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And the fact that 4 people yell? 5 MR. RAY: Yes. 6 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And they yell, 7 sometimes, profanity? 8 MR. RAY: Yes. 9 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Okay. You've also 10 documented that there is trash as a part of your 11 description, and trouble and mayhem, correct? 12 MR. RAY: Correct. 13 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And public 14 urination? 15 MR. RAY: Yes. 16 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Cars speeding in the 17 area? 18 MR. RAY: Speeding and cruising. 19 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Speeding and 20 cruising. And ignoring the stop signs, I believe 21 you said? 22 MR. RAY: Right. 23 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And you've used the 24 description of "young kids" many times. What do 25 you mean by the term "young kids"? Are you 25 1 speaking that they are under the legal drinking 2 age of 21, or what is your definition of "young 3 kids"? 4 MR. RAY: Well, I'm 50, and everyone 5 looks younger today, but -- 6 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: So you're talking 7 about 40-year-olds? 8 MR. RAY: No, I'm talking about, I would 9 say they look like they're teenagers. 10 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Teenagers. So they 11 would be under the age 21? 12 MR. RAY: Yes. 13 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And you are aware 14 that Club Sugar is an underage club? 15 MR. RAY: I am. 16 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Now, you've also 17 testified this trouble, as you use the term, 18 occurs approximately once a month? 19 MR. RAY: At least. 20 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Okay. And you've 21 also testified that when you made these 22 observations, it was not from your house but 23 rather when you were walking your dog? 24 MR. RAY: Not all of the observations. 25 I think I described one on, when they came around 26 1 the house cruising through the streets, through 2 the whole neighborhood. They started, I think 3 they started at Mineral, went down to 4th, because 4 that came up Scott towards 3rd. The police were 5 coming south on 3rd and cars dispersed on 3rd, 6 they went forward to 1st Street. So the cars went 7 all over the place. 8 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: So at least in that 9 event, your basis of believing that it was 10 associated with Sugar is merely because of the age 11 of the occupants in the cars? 12 MR. RAY: Exactly. 13 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: How many times have 14 you eye-witnessed seeing the loud yelling, public 15 urination, disposing of trash, loud music in cars 16 at or near Sugar? 17 MR. RAY: Probably in the last three 18 years -- 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Two. 20 MR. RAY: Two years. In the last two 21 years, probably about at least seven, eight times. 22 I walk my dog in that area. 23 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Okay. Thank you. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 25 Mr. Pliss, are there any questions you 27 1 have for this witness? 2 MR. PLISS: Yeah. 3 You said you can tell these people are 4 underage, how can you tell that? 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Pliss, if you could 6 please ensure that you use the microphone. 7 MR. PLISS: All right. 8 MR. RAY: They look very young. They're 9 drinking in their cars. Without ID'ing them, they 10 don't look like your typical college-age kids that 11 I know are down at some of the other clubs. And 12 also, you get out early versus some of the other 13 bars. So when I see a big concentration of kids 14 coming out and it's 12:30, quarter-to-one, 12:00, 15 any time after that, I know it's Club Sugar 16 because the other bars do not get out like that. 17 MR. PLISS: But you didn't say you seen 18 a large concentration of people. I mean, all you 19 said is, you've seen cars driving and honking 20 their horns and music loud and they look young. 21 MR. RAY: I said I've seen a large 22 concentration over at the BP, which is at the 23 corner of -- 24 MR. PLISS: At the BP, correct. 25 MR. RAY: Right. Right across the 28 1 street, which are coming -- 2 MR. PLISS: Not at Club Sugar though, at 3 the BP. 4 MR. RAY: At BP. And as you know, you 5 park along the streets there, those kids are, 6 those cars are coming from in front of your 7 location. I didn't see them come out of your 8 location; I only saw the cars coming from the 9 front parked in that general area coming across 10 the street to the BP. 11 MR. PLISS: Okay, so you've never seen 12 anybody come out of the club, but yet you can 13 associate them to the club because they're parked 14 close to the club? 15 MR. RAY: Well, without my glasses on, I 16 can't see anyone coming out of the club. 17 MR. PLISS: So you can't -- so do you 18 usually wear your glasses? 19 MR. RAY: I have been lately to make 20 sure. But I've been standing at the corner of 1st 21 and Mineral. 22 MR. PLISS: Okay. There was an incident 23 you just mentioned on 7/23 -- 24 MR. RAY: Yes. 25 MR. PLISS: -- of July, 23. The -- do 29 1 you acknowledge sending me an e-mail last week? 2 MR. RAY: I did. 3 MR. PLISS: And the response from my 4 e-mail to you -- 5 MR. RAY: I didn't get a response from 6 you. 7 MR. PLISS: Let me finish. You sent me 8 an e-mail in a reply in an e-mail I sent to you a 9 year-and-a-half ago. 10 MR. RAY: Mm mm. 11 MR. PLISS: A year-and-a-half ago. 12 MR. RAY: Mm mm. 13 MR. PLISS: And in this e-mail, you say 14 that it's been quiet in recent weeks except the 15 beginning of July, okay. Now you say there is an 16 incident on 7/23. 17 MR. RAY: 7/9 also was an incident. 18 MR. PLISS: What's that? 19 MR. RAY: I think it was 7/9. It was 20 the first part of July, and then July 23rd. 21 MR. PLISS: Okay. 22 MR. RAY: It was either the Fourth of 23 July weekend or the weekend after. I can't 24 remember. 25 MR. PLISS: Okay. You also testified 30 1 that just recently, in August, you had gotten some 2 information about trouble that may occur at Sugar 3 and that we closed early. 4 MR. RAY: Yes, and I applaud you for 5 that. 6 MR. PLISS: Are you -- how sure are you 7 -- how sure are you that we closed early that 8 night? 9 MR. RAY: Well, I saw the police report 10 that came over -- 11 MR. PLISS: So you'd seen the police 12 report, and the police report said we closed 13 early? 14 MR. RAY: Yes. 15 MR. PLISS: Or did it say that we didn't 16 open at all that night? 17 MR. RAY: I thought it said you closed 18 early, but I could -- I'd have to go look at that. 19 MR. PLISS: So you're not really sure? 20 MR. RAY: What I was applauding you was 21 that you took care of it. 22 MR. PLISS: I appreciate that. But 23 you're also not stating -- 24 MR. RAY: I'm stating that I thought the 25 police report said, to the best of my knowledge, 31 1 that you closed early. 2 MR. PLISS: Okay. Well, so if I told 3 you we didn't open at all that night, would you -- 4 would that surprise you? 5 MR. RAY: It would surprise me. 6 MR. PLISS: Okay, because that's what 7 happened. 8 Three years you've been dealing with 9 Club Sugar? 10 MR. RAY: Mm mm. 11 MR. PLISS: So for the first year we 12 were open, you didn't deal with us? 13 MR. RAY: No. 14 MR. PLISS: So when you say for three 15 years you have been dealing with Club Sugar, what 16 kind of dealings have you had with Club Sugar 17 other than possible e-mails to the alderman? Have 18 you had any interaction with us other than the 19 meeting at the Hope House and then any other 20 follow-up with us? Or when we tried contacting 21 you, was there any follow-up to us? 22 MR. RAY: Only at these, only at the 23 hearing meetings to discuss. 24 MR. PLISS: After the last hearing a 25 year-and-a-half ago when I sent you this e-mail, 32 1 do you remember going on the news that night 2 stating that it wasn't your intention to shut down 3 Club Sugar, that you didn't want to see Club Sugar 4 closed? 5 MR. RAY: Right. 6 MR. PLISS: And now that position has 7 changed? 8 MR. RAY: You guys don't seem to be 9 getting any better. It just continues. 10 MR. PLISS: You actually just stated not 11 too long ago that it's been getting better. 12 MR. RAY: No, that e-mail was from a 13 year ago, that said it was getting better. I only 14 used -- 15 MR. PLISS: No. You e-mailed me seven 16 days ago. 17 MR. RAY: If you look at the e-mail, I 18 was responding to you from that e-mail saying 19 things are, seemed, were trying to get better, but 20 the last -- I think I outlined to you the dates, 21 or maybe I didn't outline to you the dates -- 22 MR. PLISS: No, you didn't. 23 MR. RAY: -- but we're still having 24 problems here. 25 MR. PLISS: So you e-mailed me a 33 1 year-and-a-half after I e-mailed you? 2 MR. RAY: No, I only -- I only pulled up 3 your e-mail to send you an e-mail to say, "Do you 4 think maybe we should sit down and discuss?" 5 Because the other part of my job is the 6 neighborhood association. 7 MR. PLISS: Yeah, right, so a 8 year-and-a-half ago when I reached out to you and 9 said, "Here is what we are doing. Here's the 10 steps we're talking. Do you have any input? Let 11 me know, what can we do to get better?" You 12 didn't feel at that time you needed to -- 13 MR. RAY: I think I responded back to 14 you and said -- 15 MR. PLISS: No. 16 MR. RAY: "-- thank you for doing what 17 you are doing." 18 MR. PLISS: You actually never did. 19 MR. RAY: Okay. 20 MR. PLISS: But a year-and-a-half later, 21 seven days before my license hearing, you want to 22 get together and talk about an issue in July; the 23 only issue you state. So I just wanted to clarify 24 that, that date I guess. And then the August 25 incident, and I guess that would be it. 34 1 I don't really have any other questions 2 for him. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Thank you. 4 Alderman Witkowiak, did you have some 5 commentary? 6 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Yes. I want to go 7 back and recap a few of my visits to Club Sugar. 8 I have three visits that I documented very well, 9 and I would like to explain these to you. 10 Saturday night, February 12th, which 11 would have been going on to Sunday morning 12 February 13th. I went to the -- this gas station 13 they're referring to, the BP station, is one-half 14 block west of Club Sugar. What happens is, about 15 an hour before closing time at Sugar, the entire 16 gas station is taken over, is commandeered by 17 young people in cars. They pull up to the pumps, 18 but they don't buy gas. 19 When this starts to happen, the person 20 that is working in the gas station locks the doors 21 and he doesn't let anybody in. As a matter of 22 fact, I had a couple cups of coffee that night so 23 I could make sure that I could stay up and be wide 24 awake. And I had to use the bathroom, and I used 25 my city ID alderman card, I put it in the guy's 35 1 nose behind the glass, and I said, "Open that 2 door." And he opened the door, and he let me in 3 to use the bathroom. And he said, "I'm scared to 4 death. This happens every night that they're 5 open." 6 The cars park and probably -- not just 7 in front of the pumps, but every other possible 8 place they can park in that station, probably 20 9 cars. Now, the patrons from Club Sugar started to 10 exit Club Sugar, and then they would come over to 11 the cars at the BP station. So you're going to 12 ask, how does this relate to the, how can you 13 relate these cars plugging the BP station to Club 14 Sugar? I've actually seen it on three occasions, 15 but this is the one I'm referring to right now. 16 Patrons came from Club Sugar and went to these 17 cars. Well, while I was standing there observing 18 this, after I went to the bathroom and came back 19 outside, I'm standing at the northeast corner of 20 the gas station just observing all of this stuff, 21 there is a couple things that I noticed of 22 interest, were kind of -- one of the cars that I 23 could see right into, the two gentlemen in the 24 front seat, and one of them pulled out his papers 25 and his weed, and they actually rolled a joint and 36 1 lit it up and started smoking it in the car. 2 Another car, I observed them opening bottles of 3 beer and openly drinking beer. These are while 4 the cars are parked in the gas station. 5 Eventually, about a half-hour later, the 6 police showed up in force. There was about four 7 or five guys on bicycles; four or five squad cars 8 came. To my disappointment, they did almost 9 nothing, almost nothing but just show up. And I'm 10 like, "Hey, this is going on here. That's going 11 on there." And it was kind of like, "Goes on 12 everyplace." Well, that is not acceptable here. 13 It's not acceptable. And it's tied to Club Sugar. 14 That's not acceptable. It's not acceptable from 15 the police department. I told the captain that. 16 I told the lieutenant that. It falls on deaf 17 ears. It's like sending a message into the black 18 hole sometimes; talking to those guys. It's not 19 acceptable. It's not acceptable for my 20 neighborhood that the people have to put up with 21 this. So basically, what they did was, they told 22 the people, you know, "You've got to move on. 23 You've got to move on. You've got to move on." 24 The gas station has posted their signs. I'm 25 asking the cops, "Why didn't you issue loitering 37 1 tickets?" Maybe that's too much paperwork for the 2 police department, I don't know. But they issued, 3 like, no tickets for anything. They just kind of 4 shooed the crowd away. But they showed up in 5 volume because they heard that I was there. 6 That's why they sent so many people there. 7 Well, when the club let out, there was a 8 considerable amount of noise, and this is people 9 that walk from Club Sugar to their cars, blasted 10 the boomboxes. By the way, when the cars were 11 finally driving out of the gas station, they were 12 just blasting their boomboxes, just almost like 13 taunting the cops. And it bothered me because 14 that noise, we have a noise ordinance that says 50 15 feet, and you could hear these cars 200 feet down 16 the road with the boomboxes blasting, and the cops 17 are standing there, like, "Oh, well." Most 18 troublesome, the response that we got from the 19 police department there. 20 Mr. Pliss, as a matter of fact, can 21 testify to the fact that I was there because he 22 came across the street and said hi to me and shook 23 my hand on that particular night. Well, that's 24 one night in question. 25 But following the, following that, when 38 1 the people dispersed from the gas station, there 2 was a small amount of cruising going on and some 3 congestion on East Mineral Street. But the noise 4 easily emanated over 50 feet, easily emanated over 5 50 feet for quite some time. That was on that 6 occasion. 7 On another occasion, which was, would 8 have been Sunday, August 9th going into -- August 9 8th going into Monday, August 9th. And I sent an 10 e-mail to my office that next morning to recount 11 the events of that date. I'll read it to you: 12 "Early Sunday morning, 12:30 a.m., I was walking 13 south on South Barclay Street. As I approached 14 the intersection of East Mineral, I heard a lot of 15 noise coming from the block due west of where I 16 was. I stood there for approximately 20 minutes, 17 observed the following: four people who exited 18 Club Sugar went to their cars that were all parked 19 within a block of Club Sugar and drove into the 20 gas station on the southwest corner of 1st and 21 Mineral. Immediately following that, several 22 other people, perhaps 20 that had exited Club 23 Sugar, went on foot to join in with the others 24 that had driven to the gas station. While 25 walking, this group was very loud, yelling what 39 1 sounded like profane threats and the like. Upon 2 arrival at the gas station, it appears that some 3 sort of confrontation was taking place. It was 4 very loud and disruptive. I could easily hear the 5 disruption from a block away. What appeared to be 6 Sugar's security staff sat quietly in their "made 7 to look like squad cars" at the corner of Barclay 8 and Mineral. They saw and heard everything that I 9 did and just sat there and did nothing. I called 10 Second District Station, 935-7220, spoke to the 11 person identifying himself as Officer Kits 12 (phonetic), who informed me he could not and would 13 not take the complaint and that I had to call 14 central dispatch nonemergency number to report 15 this." Thank you Milwaukee Police Department. 16 "After informing him of my displeasure with this 17 process, he still refused to take the complaint 18 and transferred me to central dispatch where I 19 recorded my complaint to the operator. Not long 20 after that, I saw a squad did show up; however, 21 the confrontation had dissipated by that time." 22 My personal observations. 23 And then on another occasion, a third 24 occasion -- these are three that I've documented 25 well. I've been there over a dozen times when 40 1 there are problems; these are three that I've 2 documented well. Listen closely to this. 3 "Early Monday morning --" this would be July 4 12th -- "Early Monday morning --" July 12, 2010. 5 "Early Monday morning, 12:30 a.m., I took a ride 6 past 1st and Mineral. I was on my way to the post 7 office. I observed some of the crowd leaving Club 8 Sugar, and I pulled over to witness the scene. I 9 stayed in two locations within a quarter-block of 10 the intersection of 1st and Mineral until 12:45 11 a.m. and report the following: A group of about 12 15 young people went walking across the street to 13 the west towards the Citgo station. They came 14 from Club Sugar. While they were walking, they 15 were yelling profanities at other Club Sugar 16 patrons who had pulled their cars into the gas 17 station. The loud yelling went on for several 18 minutes and could easily be heard from over 50 19 feet away. Another group of approximately ten 20 young people went walking west up Mineral 21 Street -- in the street, I may add, because their 22 cars were parked in the 100 block west. At least 23 two of the cars that were entered, started, had 24 music blasting so loud it could easily be heard 25 from well over 100 feet away. Some were also 41 1 yelling profanities as they were approaching 2 others that had reached their cars first. All of 3 the while I was there, I said nothing and did not 4 attempt to signal anyone in any way, shape or 5 form. I just stood there silent and observed. At 6 one point, a young lady who exited Club Sugar was 7 walking down the sidewalk when she noticed me 8 there observing. She walked right up to me and 9 said, 'Well, what the 'F'?' I did not react. I 10 just stood there, and she turned and walked away." 11 On several occasions, I have also 12 observed this cruising. And it's some of the 13 people from Club Sugar, and then they bring in 14 some people from the outside. I don't know if 15 they do a text blast or something and bring these 16 people from the outside. 17 I have seen cars do doughnuts right at 18 the intersection of 1st and Mineral, the 19 intersection of 1st and Walker, and you see the 20 rubber doughnuts in the street. 21 I've actually seen the sheriff's 22 department respond on one occasion as well as the 23 police department to a large confrontation, that 24 was people from Sugar, went a block to the north. 25 They went a block to the north and a half-block 42 1 west. And there were several squad cars, and the 2 sheriff's department showed up. I asked the 3 police the next day for some kind of written 4 report as to what happened in that confrontation, 5 and I got nothing from the police department, as 6 usual. 7 I've got to tell you something, this -- 8 I've also seen public urination there, because 9 when the people come, when they come to the cars 10 over at the BP station, and, of course, the door 11 is locked over there, and they go around the 12 backside and urinate over there. I've seen that 13 happen because they can't get into the BP station. 14 I've asked the owners of the BP station, that 15 would be Mr. Jay Wallia (phonetic) and his 16 brother, I said, "Doesn't this bother you?" They 17 said, "It bothers us terribly. It bothers us 18 terribly that this happens. It disrupts our 19 business. It costs us money." I said, "Will you 20 come down to the Committee and tell the Committee 21 members this so we can hear this?" "We're afraid. 22 We're scared. We're scared they're going to bust 23 the place up worse than they do. We're afraid. 24 We don't want to say nothing. We don't want to 25 get involved in anything." That is our friend, 43 1 Mr. Wallia that owns the station. They are quick 2 to call the aldermen when they want a favor, but 3 they won't come down to the Committee and tell how 4 the patrons of this club trash the place. 5 We have -- there are seven -- okay, 6 you're considering two years' worth of stuff here 7 remember, okay. There are seven significant items 8 on the police report here, seven, plus my 9 testimony, plus the testimony of Victor Ray. I 10 could keep you here for another three hours 11 telling you hearsay -- but you don't want to hear 12 it -- from people who are intimidated to come down 13 here. They're afraid to come down here and 14 testify. How long are we going to put up with 15 this stuff? 16 And furthermore, how long are we going 17 to let the court system tell us how to run this 18 Committee and our Council? This license is a 19 privilege granted by the Common Council of the 20 City of Milwaukee; not some judge sitting that 21 doesn't know squat about what's going on in the 22 neighborhood. 23 If I haven't made myself perfectly 24 clear, you're all free to ask me some questions. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Questions by 44 1 Committee? 2 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And I'll just, before I 4 hear from Mr. Stephens, I'll reiterate the remarks 5 with the court system. The court system has done 6 a travesty, not just in this case, in numerous 7 ones recently here in the City of Milwaukee. My 8 own response for any judge that reads the 9 transcripts here, do your job and do it right. 10 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Or change the laws 11 and give it to the court and take it out of the 12 hands of the Common Council. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I personally think -- I 14 have no idea about some judges, but I think 15 they're creating their own laws. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Bohl, just 17 one quick question. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Zielinski. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Which judge are you 20 referring to? Because we keep talking about 21 judges in general, I'd like, I think the people 22 would like to know which judges. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: There have been several 24 of them that I think have done a decent job, there 25 are others who, frankly, dropped the ball. I 45 1 don't -- I don't want to go into personalities 2 here at this point. I think that's for another 3 time, Alderman. 4 Mr. Stephens. 5 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Thank you, Mr. 6 Chair. 7 Alderman Witkowiak, I just wanted to 8 clarify. The three documented instances you had, 9 could you give us -- I believe you said the July 10 12th incident was in 2010. There was an August 11 8th/9th incident, what year was that? And also 12 February 12th and 13th incident, what year were 13 those? 14 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. The July 15 11th to 12th, this is a Sunday into Monday; July 16 11th and 12th is 2010. August 8th to 9th would 17 be 2010. February 12th is 2011. 18 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Thank you. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions? Any 20 other questions by Committee? 21 Mr. Pliss, questions for Alderman 22 Witkowiak? 23 MR. PLISS: You mentioned the cruising 24 issues and -- the orchestrated cruising, I guess, 25 that comes to Club Sugar or came to Club Sugar. 46 1 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Yes. 2 MR. PLISS: Do you acknowledge that at 3 our license hearing, I believe it was a 4 your-and-a-half ago, that we actually brought that 5 to light, and actually curbed that with the help 6 of the police department? That was orchestrated 7 through Facebook, and that wasn't just a Club 8 Sugar-thing, but a City of Milwaukee-thing. 9 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Yes. 10 MR. PLISS: We actually brought that to 11 light and helped the police department resolve 12 that. 13 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Yes, you did. 14 MR. PLISS: You mentioned some of the 15 issues with the police as far as not issuing 16 citations: loitering citations, noise citations, 17 is that more of an issue you have with the police, 18 or is that an issue that you have with the club? 19 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Well, my point is, 20 if Club Sugar wasn't there and attracting these 21 people, this noise wouldn't be a problem and this 22 loitering wouldn't be a problem. So I have -- 23 it's two separate issues. I'm here to argue 24 against the renewal of this license because I want 25 to preserve peace and tranquility in the 47 1 neighborhood. I have a second issue with the 2 police department: if we've got these laws on the 3 books and our chief is so interested in this 4 broken-window theory, it's like -- but they never 5 do anything about the small stuff. So that's a 6 separate issue. But the fact, what I'm arguing 7 with -- what my argument to the Committee is that 8 if Club Sugar wasn't there, these people creating 9 this noise and this havoc wouldn't be there. 10 MR. PLISS: Okay. All right. So if 11 Club Sugar wasn't there, there would be no noise 12 in the neighborhood, no issues? 13 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: There would be less 14 noise and less issues. 15 MR. PLISS: There would be less noise 16 and less issues, okay. 17 On the nights that Sugar is open, 18 typically Fridays and Saturdays, do you have an 19 idea of how many other places are open at that 20 time in the area? 21 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Yeah, I mean, there 22 are several. There are several establishments 23 within four, five blocks of there. 24 MR. PLISS: Okay. 25 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: But I did personal 48 1 observations, and I can tell you definitively that 2 what I've testified to has been patrons of Club 3 Sugar, not from another club. 4 MR. PLISS: Okay. See if there is 5 anything else I wanted to ask. 6 How long have you been receiving 7 complaints about Sugar? 8 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Since about the 9 second or third year it was open. 10 MR. PLISS: So 2008? 11 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: What year did you 12 open up again? 13 MR. PLISS: 2008. So 2008, 2009, around 14 there? 15 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Yes. 16 MR. PLISS: I have an e-mail here sent 17 from Michael McGuire, your assistant. 18 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Yes. 19 MR. PLISS: And this is sent to Walter 20 Majewski (phonetic), who has sent you numerous 21 e-mails. 22 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Yes. 23 MR. PLISS: And this was on February 1, 24 2010. If I could just read it real quick here to 25 you, and see if you remember this, it says, "Mr. 49 1 Majewski, we have not had a single other complaint 2 about this place in the last 18 months or so to 3 include from you but to say another sleepless 4 night over the place. We have sent out our cards 5 to a wide radius a few months ago announcing that 6 Club Sugar was asking for its renewal. We've 7 received no opposition to include any from you. 8 I'm not saying here that Sugar is currently not 9 the problem you say it is, I'm saying we cannot 10 act against the place, lack of timely complaints, 11 timely of opposition to its permit to operate." 12 And then it says that he forwarded the complaint 13 to the police. I guess the biggest thing in there 14 is that, "We have not received another complaint 15 in the last 18 months to your office." I also 16 have copies for the -- 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sure. 18 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: That's fine. And 19 let me explain this to the Committee. There are 20 very few residential people that are close by to 21 this place, so you're not going to get this -- by 22 the way, if you want to introduce this, if you 23 want to see all of the e-mails I got from Mr. 24 Majewski -- actually, they're in your file. I 25 don't know, has anybody -- 50 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: They are. 2 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: -- taken the time 3 to read those? 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: They're in the file. 5 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. So the fact 6 is that there's not many people, where my 7 assistant says that, you know, we only received 8 complaints from this one person. This is the 9 person that lives the closest to the place. There 10 is not a lot of other people that live close to 11 this. But it spills out so far into the 12 neighborhood, that's where I went and personally 13 got involved, and I had to see where is this stuff 14 coming from exactly, so somebody couldn't say, 15 "It's coming from this other club. It's coming 16 from this other club." That's where I went and 17 documented that it's coming from this club. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: At this time, I'll have 19 Alderman Kovac move to make the submission here by 20 Mr. Pliss part of our official record. But as 21 long as we are doing that, I will also include 22 from our E-Book Page 164, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 23 71, 72, 73, which are additional e-mails from 24 Walter Allen Majewski. Are there any objections 25 to the inclusion of, not only this, but also of 51 1 those additional pages of the complaint? 2 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair, if I may? 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: On that motion, do you 4 want to provide -- 5 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: If I may? 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead, Mr. Stephens. 7 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: If I can just add 8 some perspective to that. As the Committee is 9 aware, witnesses need to testify live in front of 10 the Committee so that they are subject to 11 cross-examination. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Correct. 13 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And that any written 14 documents, as a matter of course, are not accepted 15 by this Committee in its usual practice. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Correct. 17 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: In this particular 18 case, with this particular e-mail, the license 19 renewal applicant himself has offered this e-mail. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: That is why I've sought 21 fit to add additional e-mails that we have in our 22 record, same individual, correct. 23 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: But I would caution 24 the Committee to not rely and not decide this 25 matter based on these, any of these e-mails. 52 1 Clearly, they are there, and I think the Committee 2 could consider them for the purposes that I think 3 the license applicant is proposing them, to say 4 that at some point in time there weren't problems, 5 but then problems at least started to be 6 complained about by the closest living neighbor. 7 I think that is the only value these e-mails would 8 have, because you cannot consider anything that is 9 stated in them. 10 And I'm saying that not as a matter of 11 law, but rather as a matter of practice of this 12 Committee. Clearly, the Committee can accept 13 hearsay, it's not a court of law; it is the 14 Licenses Committee of the Common Council. So you 15 can accept these documents, but I would just 16 request the court, based on its practice, to limit 17 it's consideration for those purposes. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I would direct that we 19 would do so, and for the sake of providing for a 20 record, we will move to make all of these e-mail 21 documents part of the record, but we would 22 establish them as an addendum file not for 23 consideration by the Committee in determining this 24 matter. 25 Is that understood by Committee members 53 1 then? With that then, that would be Alderman 2 Kovac's motion to include these documents. Are 3 there any objections to that? Hearing none, so 4 ordered. 5 Mr. Pliss, if you want to continue to 6 proceed, you may do so here. 7 MR. PLISS: All right. You said that 8 there's -- we're talking about two years of, I 9 guess we're talking about a two-year period here, 10 and you said that there is seven significant 11 police reports on file, correct? 12 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Yes. 13 MR. PLISS: So you would consider me not 14 having a license for my dog a significant -- 15 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: I thought I 16 eliminated that one. That was No. 8. 17 MR. PLISS: But there were seven total, 18 wasn't there? 19 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: I thought there 20 were eight total and I eliminated that one. No, I 21 don't -- I have no issue with you and your dog 22 license, believe me. 23 MR. PLISS: I did get the dog license, 24 by the way, a day later. 25 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. I have no 54 1 issue with that. If that was included in the 2 seven, then I'll change my testimony to six. I'm 3 not worried about that. 4 MR. PLISS: Okay. So then 3/20, this 5 was for the burnt-out light bulb. Is that 6 considered a significant issue? 7 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: It's a safety 8 issue, yes. 9 MR. PLISS: A burnt-out light bulb? 10 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: A burnt-out light 11 bulb in an exit sign in a place? There's fires in 12 places and people die trying to exit because they 13 can't find the exit doors. I consider that -- 14 MR. PLISS: Okay. 15 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Why would they have 16 written you a citation otherwise? 17 MR. PLISS: Okay. And then the 18 10/10/2011 traffic stop, do you consider it 19 significant? 20 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: It's related to the 21 club, yes. It corroborates what I've been saying 22 about the -- 23 MR. PLISS: I'm not sure that was 24 related to the club other than being close to it. 25 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay, so you want 55 1 to contest that two of these were not significant? 2 MR. PLISS: No, I'm just trying to -- 3 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. 4 MR. PLISS: So we know exactly -- 5 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. 6 MR. PLISS: So if you take one or two of 7 those out, so we have five -- 8 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. 9 MR. PLISS: -- I guess, significant, 10 that you consider, over a two-year period. 11 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. It's a 12 matter of opinion, but I respect yours. 13 MR. PLISS: Okay. I mean, I just wanted 14 to clarify those two, and see what you considered 15 to be significant. 16 I guess that's it. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Was there anything else 18 that you wish to add, Mr. Pliss? 19 MR. PLISS: Yeah, I actually would, 20 just, I think going back a year-and-a-half ago, 21 when we were here the last time, I think we -- and 22 even the time, even the license hearing before 23 that, we've sat here, and I think sometimes these 24 license hearings can turn into a bit of a circus. 25 And it was not my intention then, nor is it now, 56 1 which is why I'm here by myself. But at these 2 license hearings, you guys have -- we've talked 3 and we've gone through things and you've made 4 recommendations: changing the age; changing the 5 times that we close; adding, you know, adding some 6 security. Everything that you guys have asked us 7 to do, we have done. Everything that you guys 8 suggest, we've implemented. We've shown you guys 9 that we have implemented them. We've gone so far 10 as to investigate social media to see if that is 11 really affecting us, and it was. We alerted the 12 police department. We worked together with the 13 police department. They helped us curb it. 14 There's no an longer issues. I formed, I think a 15 great relationship with the police department, 16 which I guess shows from them not being here 17 testifying against this license. I have a very 18 open communication with the lieutenant. A new 19 lieutenant came in and is really willing to work 20 with the businessowners and not really taking one 21 side or another, just kind of helping us coexist, 22 I guess. And we have been open to it. A lot of 23 open dialogue, me going down to the police station 24 and talking to them, see if there is anything else 25 we can do, asking him questions, him asking me 57 1 questions, the communication is there. I mean, 2 it's been there. It continues to be there. 3 I think the biggest problem, and it may 4 be part of my fault from the start, was probably 5 lack of communication with the neighbors. For the 6 first two years, we didn't have any complaints, so 7 there was nothing going on that we knew about. As 8 soon as we heard about something for the first 9 time, which I think was at the Hope House, made 10 sure everybody had our personal cell phone 11 numbers, the numbers to the business, our personal 12 e-mail address that went right to my phone. And I 13 told them, "Send me an e-mail immediately, it will 14 come to my phone. If you see something going on, 15 alert me, and I'll have someone on it within five 16 minutes." We never got anything. I set up a 17 specific e-mail just for that. I got one e-mail 18 from Walter, the guy who sent these e-mails, 19 saying that he would like me to turn it into a 20 Niki Beach (phonetic) like in Miami. That was his 21 suggestion. We've made the effort to reach out to 22 the neighbors. 23 Then we had an incident at Bradley Tech 24 where we went, and we had all of these -- we had 25 the alderman going on the news saying that we were 58 1 having this meeting because there was mayhem at 2 Sugar. Still at that point, we had no idea what 3 the mayhem was. I had received one phone call 4 from the alderman's assistant saying that there 5 was noise. "We haven't had any issues from you 6 guys. We, we're pretty, you know, we're pretty 7 certain that you guys will take care of it, but we 8 just wanted to notify you about it." A month 9 later, we're having a meeting at Bradley Tech. So 10 we go into this Bradley Tech meeting with our 11 attorneys not knowing what to expect. And that's 12 the only reason we went with our attorneys is 13 because we didn't know what to expect. "Where is 14 this all coming from? What happened?" So we went 15 in there, and I guess the neighbors took great 16 offense to that because they felt like we were 17 intimidating them. That wasn't the -- that wasn't 18 the idea. The idea was, we've spent $250,000 to 19 open a business in the City of Milwaukee, now our 20 business is coming into question. You expect me 21 to go to a meeting without legal counsel to 22 protect my investment? That's why we took the 23 attorneys. You know, we had a court reporter 24 there on the suggestion of the attorneys. We did 25 that so that everything was documented, so there 59 1 is no hearsay, so there is no questions. 2 We barely got to speak at the license 3 hearing. I think it was poorly conducted. I 4 think it was conducted in a way to cause a scene 5 for the news, because the news was called. And 6 from that point on, it was just, it was a snowball 7 effect. Nobody wanted to contact us. Nobody 8 wanted to call us. We'd reached out to them. We 9 joined the Walker's Point Association. When we 10 were at these meetings, they'd have a license 11 update. They have this, you know, they give 12 updates on the licenses. When we're not there, 13 nothing is said about the license. We actually 14 have to ask if there are any updates on any 15 license issues with any licensees; no issues, no 16 issues. I don't go one day and all of a sudden 17 there is all of these issues. I go back the next 18 month and again there's no issues. It's -- I 19 think what you don't understand about this area, 20 it's -- this Walker's Point Association is more of 21 a -- it's more of a clique than it is an 22 association. And the reason I say that is because 23 if you're not part of the clique, you don't really 24 have a say in this association. We've tried being 25 involved. We were told by the license liaison, 60 1 the current license liaison, "Why are you even 2 coming? Why are you even coming to these? There 3 is no point in you even coming." Basically 4 saying, "You're not --" you know -- (phone 5 ringing) I'm sorry -- basically saying, "You're 6 not welcome here." Even though we're there, we're 7 trying to reach out to them. We're trying to give 8 them all of the information that we have and 9 trying to gather all of the information so we can 10 do something with it. 11 So again, I think we've done everything. 12 We've done everything you guys have asked. Every 13 time we come here, you know, I think we negate a 14 lot of what's, you know, a lot of what's happened. 15 Even today, other than the alderman's testimony, 16 there's no real evidence, not even from him. He 17 has no evidence of people coming from there. He 18 never said he seen anybody coming out of there. 19 All he can say is they're young and they're around 20 the area. And so it mus -- (phone ringing) I'm 21 sorry, I thought I had this on silent. So again, 22 there is no evidence to anything that's been heard 23 here today. So I mean, other than the alderman -- 24 and, yeah, I've seen him out there, and I've 25 talked to him and I've made, you know, I called 61 1 the alderman personally, try to work through these 2 issues, and it's just, nobody is willing to work 3 with anybody, so. (Phone ringing.) 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Maybe it's one of the 5 neighbors who is watching, wanting to contact. 6 MR. PLISS: Must be. It's not Victor; 7 he is right here. Maybe it's Walter. 8 No, so I would say that, you know, I 9 think we've done everything that we possibly can 10 to negate all of these problems. We've done 11 exactly what you guys have asked us in the past. 12 We've went above and beyond that. Again, we have 13 a great relationship with the police. I wish we 14 could have a great relationship with the 15 neighbors. They don't seem willing to be able to 16 want to do that. And I guess you have to make 17 your decision based on the evidence provided. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 19 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: You mentioned that 22 you've made some adjustments based on what the 23 Council has asked and this Committee has asked you 24 to do with the security camera thing, social 25 media. Specifically, though, a big part of 62 1 Alderman Witkowiak's testimony was about the 2 nearby gas station. Are you aware of that, and 3 what strategies are you using to prevent your, to 4 prevent that? 5 MR. PLISS: Yeah, we actually, that is 6 something that we've been -- that's been kind of 7 an ongoing thing that we've been doing. We've 8 been doing it for quite a few -- well, about two 9 years. The last time we were here for our license 10 hearing, two cycles ago, I guess, or two licenses 11 ago, is, we came up with a strategy to send our 12 security over to the club. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: To the gas station? 14 MR. PLISS: To the gas station, yeah. 15 As soon as we let out, we have a group that goes 16 over there, we have a group that stays back at the 17 club to make sure everybody is clearing out; we 18 send a group of about four or five guys over 19 there. And I have an open dialogue with Rick, who 20 owns the gas station. And one thing I said from 21 the beginning is, "Look, if you guys want -- what 22 do you want us to do? How do you want us to 23 handle it? Do you want us to have security there 24 and not let your -- not let people in, or do you 25 want us just to have a security guard in there to 63 1 make sure there is no theft going on, or making 2 sure those cars are moving and not just stopping 3 and hanging out?" And he said, "Look, do 4 whatever. Do whatever you want to do." He's 5 like, "It doesn't really bother me either way. 6 Whatever you want to do." He's like, "You can let 7 the people in." And we kind of base it now off of 8 who is working, because some, you know, the 9 clerk -- one clerk may have a problem with it, and 10 then another clerk may, you know, they may care 11 less. So we kind of know who's working and how 12 they want us to handle it. But we always send 13 security over there. We always make sure people 14 aren't going in, you know, stealing or in big 15 groups, keeping an eye on them. We do keep the 16 traffic moving as best we can. The police told us 17 there is only so much we can do. It's not our 18 property, so there is only so much we can do, but 19 we do -- we try to go above and beyond what we can 20 do. 21 And, again, with our relationship with 22 the police, they do let us do a little more as far 23 as getting cars moving, and stuff like that. And 24 it's literally ten minutes from the time that we 25 close to the time that people are out of the area. 64 1 Now, it may seem like a lot longer, but it's 2 really not. I have the biggest clock in the city 3 right there, and every night I watch it from the 4 time we close to the time people are out of the 5 area, and it's literally ten minutes at most on a 6 good day. And there is some days when there is 7 not, nobody goes to that gas station. It all 8 depends on the crowd. It all depends on what's 9 going on. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Questions by 11 Committee? 12 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Mr. Chairman. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Witkowiak, do 14 you want to just provide a brief closing here? 15 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Yeah, I just want 16 to touch on that Bradley Tech meeting. The 17 impetus for that, calling that meeting, was the 18 onset of this, of the out-of-control cruising that 19 was related to some of the patrons of Sugar; not 20 all them. Their capacity is not as large -- we 21 had cruising incidents with 200, 300 cars, and 22 there is not 200, 300 cars that come down there. 23 But they were related to, that was like the hub of 24 it, and then they all went off from there. That 25 was the impetus for the meeting at Bradley Tech. 65 1 Well, the meeting was very well attended, and 2 that's where the intimidation factor started, 3 which is why, one of the reasons why, you see 4 empty rooms at meetings like this, because people 5 are scared to death. So Mr. Pliss hired a law 6 firm to represent him -- and that was his 7 prerogative to do that, I don't begrudge him that, 8 but they came down with a court reporter, and they 9 started recording the people's testimony. And 10 then Mr. Pliss' attorneys would ask the people, 11 "We want your name and address." And that's where 12 the people felt intimidated, that how could they 13 come to this -- this was not a legal proceeding, 14 it was simply a neighborhood meeting to get the 15 issues out on the table. And that's why the 16 meeting did not end up going well, because the 17 people all felt intimidated. It's like, "They've 18 got lawyers here and court reporters, you know, 19 taking my name and address." They've got to 20 understand if they come to this Committee and they 21 want to testify, they have to do that, but at a 22 neighborhood meeting to discuss issues and give 23 comments, that's not necessary. And they were 24 forced into that or attempted, the attorneys 25 attempted to force them into that, and that's why 66 1 they all felt intimidated. 2 MR. PLISS: And just to be fair, I don't 3 -- the reason we wanted addresses was so we could 4 tell the proximity of where they lived as opposed 5 to where the club is. So when -- well, we thought 6 we were going to talk through these issues, so we 7 knew exactly where this person lives, so we can 8 say, okay, you're a block away, you're eight 9 blocks away, just so we know. There was no 10 intimidation. We never demanded anybody to give 11 us any addresses, or anything like that. I don't 12 think anybody gave -- 13 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: I don't see it the 14 same way. We were at the same meeting. I don't 15 see it the same way. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Wasn't there, at one of 17 our previous hearings, wasn't there a discussion 18 with -- I'll use "allegation" as opposed to a 19 "threat," but the allegation that "We're taking 20 your testimony, and if you testify anything 21 differently at the Committee, we'll try you for 22 perjury"? 23 MR. PLISS: Yeah, we sent out an e-mail 24 saying that, just so we alerted people beforehand 25 that there was going to be a court reporter there, 67 1 and to say that -- 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I mean, I think a 3 reasonable person, depending on your perspective, 4 would take that as some measure of intimidation. 5 MR. PLISS: I guess after the fact, 6 after I looked at it, I could see how it would 7 be -- 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yeah. 9 MR. PLISS: -- a little bit 10 intimidating. That wasn't the -- but that wasn't 11 the intent. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I know that wasn't the 13 intent necessarily behind you. 14 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And it appears that he 15 is shifting gears from the last year that was 16 going on. 17 MR. PLISS: Shifting gears as far as? 18 ALDERMAN KOVAC: As far as not trying to 19 intimidate witnesses. 20 MR. PLISS: Oh, no, that was never our 21 intent to begin with. First of all -- 22 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: They've already 23 succeeded in doing that. Can you see? 24 MR. PLISS: If anything, I should have 25 been intimidated at that meeting because there was 68 1 all of these neighbors. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We understand, and I 3 don't want to kind of go far afoot on that. 4 MR. PLISS: Just so -- 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You had very aggressive 6 attorneys that took a very aggressive tactic. 7 MR. PLISS: Right, but -- Alderman 8 Kovac, you say we're "shifting gears," we never -- 9 we're not really shifting gears because we never 10 really -- our intention was never to intimidate. 11 So to say we are not intimidating now, we -- 12 ALDERMAN KOVAC: I think it was your 13 lawyers' intention. 14 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderwoman Coggs. 16 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I have a question of 17 the city attorney. It seems like we're talking a 18 lot about the tactics used by the applicant and 19 his attorneys, meetings and all that kind of stuff 20 and the court reporter and all of that, which I'm 21 not a fan of either, but could any of that be used 22 in our decision? And if not, I think we should 23 move on. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I agree. 25 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: I think you can give 69 1 it the weight that you want to. I think the 2 practice of this Committee historically has been 3 that they expect licensees to work cooperatively 4 with neighbors to avoid negative secondary effects 5 on the neighborhoods. And, frankly, that's 6 generally what all of these hearings are about, is 7 neighbors coming to complain about behavior that's 8 spilled out into the neighborhoods from patrons 9 and former patrons of the licensed establishments. 10 Usually, we don't hear about the internal workings 11 of the business at this Committee hearing. So it 12 seems to me that it is relevant to the point of 13 maintaining good cordial relationships, that if 14 theoretically neighbors are feeling intimidated, 15 that one doesn't have a good working relationship 16 with someone who intimidates. But up to -- it's, 17 ultimately, your question, it's completely within 18 your discretion whether or not to consider it or 19 not. Although, I would advise, in this 20 circumstance, given the legal proceedings that 21 have happened in this case, it's probably not 22 necessary to go down that road and base your 23 decision on it. This meeting, I believe, happened 24 in the spring of two thousand and -- 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: '10. 70 1 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: '10. So it is 2 somewhat dated at this point. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I would prefer us to 4 exclude that. I think that everything else in 5 terms of what's been presented as items, either in 6 the police report or that have been described 7 here, is certainly fair game and can be 8 attributable, attributed to the license in 9 whatever matter that the Committee may deem at 10 this point, so. 11 Why don't we just allow you, if you 12 want, to do a brief closing? 13 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair, if I may, 14 I just have a couple of very brief questions for 15 the license applicant relative to his application. 16 Mr. Pliss, you filed the -- I'm looking 17 at the application that you filed on June 9th of 18 this year, 2011. You document on the application 19 that the legal capacity -- that this business, 20 Club Sugar, is open Friday and Saturday nights 21 only, correct? 22 MR. PLISS: The standard nights are, 23 yeah, Friday and Saturday. 24 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Between 9:00 p.m. 25 and 12:30 a.m., correct? 71 1 MR. PLISS: Correct. 2 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And the capacity, 3 the legal capacity of the building, the amount of 4 people you're allowed to have at any one time, is 5 300? 6 MR. PLISS: Correct. 7 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And you indicate 8 that you expect approximately 200 customers each 9 day? 10 MR. PLISS: Around there, yeah. 11 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And you've made note 12 that there are no, there are zero parking spaces 13 associated with the building that you're in, 14 correct? 15 MR. PLISS: Correct. It's all street 16 parking. 17 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Based upon either 18 your security counter, you know, clickers, or 19 based upon your revenues, can you estimate on a 20 given Friday or Saturday night between 9:00 p.m. 21 and 12:30 a.m. how many people come and go from 22 the business? 23 MR. PLISS: Come and go? 24 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Over the course of 25 the evening. I mean, you have -- 72 1 MR. PLISS: Over the course, yeah, over 2 the course of the evening, it's about 200. 3 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Okay. Thank you. I 4 don't have any further questions. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 6 Alderman Witkowiak, do you want to 7 provide any additional brief closing? 8 MR. PLISS: Mr. Chair, was that my 9 closing, or do I get a closing after him? 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I will provide you a 11 closing. When I actually asked if you wanted 12 additional comments and you said that you were 13 done, I thought you were finished, but I will 14 provide you that if you want to provide a couple 15 closing comments, sort of tying in. 16 MR. PLISS: Okay. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Witkowiak, 18 we'll hear from you. 19 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Thank you, Mr. 20 Chairman. 21 Mr. Pliss comes in from the outside: 22 he's not a stakeholder; resident of the 23 neighborhood, runs his business and strains the 24 resources of the police department while he's 25 open, and disrupts the peaceful enjoyment of the 73 1 neighborhood for our people in the lower Walker's 2 Point area. And this has been a problem that -- 3 originally, when Mr. Pliss opened this 4 establishment, we were told that this was going to 5 be a dance club for young Christians, they were 6 going to play Christian music. You've heard that 7 before. Obviously, that business plan didn't earn 8 the management there enough money, so they decided 9 to shift gears and go into something else than 10 that, so they did. It's caused a huge disruption 11 in the neighborhood over the years. 12 Mr. Pliss, to his credit, has come to 13 meetings, he has cooperated to the best of his 14 ability, but the fact is, the club just does not 15 fit in the neighborhood. We're a neighborhood in 16 a great period of renaissance. We have a lot of 17 people moving into the neighborhood. We have a 18 lot of new activity around there, and it just 19 doesn't fit. 20 And the fact that you see only one 21 resident come here to testify besides me, first of 22 all, there's not many people living around there, 23 and believe me, there won't be if this club is 24 continued to stay open; people aren't going to 25 come and want to reside anywhere near there. And 74 1 so there is not a great amount of people that live 2 very close to the place, number one. Number two, 3 their intimidation factor worked just great. 4 These people are afraid to come down to testify. 5 I hear it all of the time. I say -- I could fill 6 this Committee's next four hours with hearsay if 7 you wanted to, and I still wouldn't run out of 8 material, if I could get these people to come 9 down. But they're scared to death to do it 10 because they're just intimidated. 11 So I'm asking that the -- I'm asking 12 that this Committee not renew this license. And 13 I'm asking this Committee not to be afraid of what 14 kind of judicial review that this will get. 15 Because as I told you before, I'm sick and tired 16 of judges coming in here that don't know squat 17 about what's going on in this license procedure; 18 don't know anything about what's going on in the 19 neighborhood and coming down and trying to better 20 our decisions. 21 I'm asking the Committee -- this is 22 enough is enough, again. How many times have you 23 heard that from me? Enough is enough. I'm asking 24 the Committee not to renew this license. Thank 25 you. 75 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 2 Mr. Pliss. 3 MR. PLISS: Again, just to go back to 4 what I was saying before, I think time and time 5 again, this Council comes and they hear licenses, 6 and they say, "You need to do this, this and 7 this." And you've said that to me, and I've done 8 -- you told me to do A, B, C. "Why don't you try 9 A, B and C?" I've done it. I've gone above and 10 beyond it. I've cooperated with everybody from 11 the police, open dialogue with the alderman, tried 12 to have open dialogue with the neighbors. We do 13 everything 110 percent. We don't slack on 14 anything when we do something; we go above and 15 beyond it. What you guys tell us to do, we take 16 it a step further. 17 You know, we try to work with the 18 neighbors. You know, I have a neighbor here that 19 a year-and-a-half ago I sent him an e-mail; never 20 heard back from him. He was one of the concerned 21 residents. If I can't get a response from 22 neighbors when I'm reaching out to them, how can I 23 work with them? We're trying. We continue to 24 try. You know, we will continue to try to work 25 with the neighbors. We go to the meetings. We 76 1 hear what they have to say, which is not a lot, 2 but anything they do say, we take heed, and we do 3 something about it. 4 As far as us not -- he says me coming 5 from outside, there are businesses all of the time 6 that come in from the outside. And they invest 7 money into a neighborhood. And we have, we have 8 invested a substantial amount into the 9 neighborhood. You know, the alderman often says 10 about this area that, "We've spent 20 years and 11 millions of dollars." Well, what about my years 12 that I've been there and my investment? Most of 13 the people that live around that area are five and 14 six blocks away. We are in an industrial area, a 15 commercial area. There's no residents within two 16 blocks of us. Which is why, when we talked to the 17 alderman in the first place, he agreed that that 18 was a good location for what we wanted to do. 19 Now there is this whole misconception 20 about us being a Christian nightclub. You guys 21 have the business plan on file or should from 22 years past. 23 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: You're under oath. 24 Did you not go to the meeting and say that to me? 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Witkowiak. 77 1 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: That this was going 2 to be a Christian dance club? 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Witkowiak. 4 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Excuse me. 5 MR. PLISS: In the business plan, it 6 states that we are a Christian-based company 7 opening up a teen dance club. That's exactly what 8 it said. We said we were going to try a Christian 9 music night, which we tried, and it didn't work. 10 That was in addition to our regular nights. We 11 stated exactly what kind of music we were going to 12 play on the application, as you have to. So this 13 whole, this whole theory that the alderman has 14 that we duped him into believing that this was 15 going to be a Christian dance club is just simply 16 not the case. He has our business plan on file, 17 or should. And if it's read properly, and if you 18 read it, it exactly states exactly what we were 19 going to do, and we did exactly what we said we 20 were go to do on the application. That's kind of 21 been thrown in my face for the past three years by 22 him as kind of the, "You said you were going to do 23 this, but you didn't, you did something completely 24 different." And I didn't. That is just simply 25 not the case. And I've went above and beyond. 78 1 And I've spent tens of thousands of dollars to, I 2 think, defend myself for -- for what? For e-mails 3 that say we haven't had any issues with this place 4 for 18 months. But a year later, I got a ten-day 5 suspension from you guys because supposedly there 6 were issues, but then his assistant is saying we 7 haven't had any complaints in 18 months about this 8 place. 9 So I would just say that, in closing, 10 just consider the evidence that was here today, 11 the actual hard evidence. The two or three 12 substantial, if you want to call them that, police 13 reports over the past two years; two years, and I 14 have three incidents. There's licenses that come 15 before this Committee for a year and have 20, 25, 16 and they're allowed to stay open. So I would just 17 say that you have to consider the evidence here, 18 the testimony. And I understand that the alderman 19 has the aldermanic privilege of saying that he's 20 been there and that he's seen this, but the lack 21 of neighbors, the lack of the police being here to 22 testify against us, it's not intimidation; there 23 is nothing to say, there is nothing to show. 24 Nobody has any evidence of where these people are 25 coming from. The guy that is here today has no 79 1 evidence of where these people are coming from. 2 All he can say is "they look young." I have a 3 10-year-old daughter; she looks old. I mean, what 4 does that mean? 5 So all I'm saying is, I think you, given 6 the evidence, I don't think there is any reason 7 not to renew this license. And I guess I would 8 ask for a renewal based on the lack of any 9 evidence that was in the notice. Thank you. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Thank you. 11 With that, we're in committee. I'll 12 pass the gavel. I don't do this frequently. 13 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Alderman Bohl. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Madam Chair. 15 Madam Chair, I'm going to, at this time, move for 16 nonrenewal of the licenses. I will base that upon 17 the items contained in the police report, but 18 exclude Item 3, which is the one item dated 19 1/6/2011. So we'll include the items from 20 10/10/2010, 11/7/2010, 2/26/2011, as well as the 21 Items 3 through 6 on the previous report, which 22 would involve dates 3/20/2010, 5/15/2010, 23 7/17/2010 and 8/15/2010. I will also make my 24 motion based upon the evidence provided through 25 testimony by Mr. Ray as well as Alderman Witkowiak 80 1 citing such items as littering; loitering; loud 2 music; noise; urination, public urination; 3 cruising. I will state that the testimony 4 provided by both gentlemen, including Alderman 5 Witkowiak, are extremely credible, that that's not 6 aldermanic privilege. I think that I believe that 7 you misstate what that is. That is the alderman 8 showing up and personally witnessing activities 9 taking place. 10 Furthermore, I will state that, in the 11 event that Mr. Pliss isn't aware, I have been a 12 member of this Common Council for 12 years, for 12 13 years I've been a member of this body. And I'd 14 like to think that I have a fairly good 15 recollection, and I recall when you first came 16 forward here with your testimony, because I was 17 sitting right next to Alderman Witkowiak at the 18 time when you came forward and presented to this 19 body, that I stand on as well, testimony stating 20 that your intention was to bring in Christian-type 21 acts and to be a Christian club. It wasn't that 22 you were going to be a night club or a dance club 23 for Christian music. This was, "We've got this 24 guy who is an act from Milwaukee. And we're 25 trying to bring him in, and we're going to work 81 1 with area churches." That's my recollection, sir. 2 So you can come here and grandstand about what 3 your so-called plan of operation is, but my 4 recollection is very vivid of what you presented 5 before the Committee. And, frankly, your 6 statements of saying that, in my view, that 7 Alderman Witkowiak is mistaken are absolutely 8 inaccurate. Now, it may be that that was your 9 best of intentions, and that didn't work so you 10 deviated, but the fact of the matter is, I believe 11 that the deviation has impinged in a very 12 detrimental way on this neighborhood. And it 13 also, I'm also aware, because I've seen these 14 clubs even in my own district here in the past, 15 unfortunately, I've seen locations where there has 16 been a problem. And where people exit, they don't 17 want to leave. I've myself witnessed at one of 18 the clubs in my district, many, many years back, 19 where around the time of closing, where 20 individuals who are leaving a club sat and started 21 squatting, what I call squatting. I mean, that 22 literally is cruising, parking, turning on music 23 loud and partying. And then there were a bunch of 24 other individuals that would come that weren't 25 part of that club that started becoming attracted 82 1 like this was the magnet. So this was the party 2 local outside. 3 I do believe that there has been 4 cruising, loud noise, other problematic-related 5 activity that are associated with your club. I 6 believe that the evidence is credible inasmuch 7 that this is an underage location and the other 8 clubs in the Walker's Point area are not underage; 9 that it is, I think it's pretty discernable based 10 on the time that you let out, based on the 11 relatively young age of individuals, that there is 12 a reasonable distinction that's made from evidence 13 that's been cited through the testimony of Mr. 14 Ray, that the persons that are creating this 15 mayhem in the neighborhood are not individuals 16 that are coming from Steny's and other locations, 17 but clearly are from your facility. 18 I think that we've gone far afoot and 19 you've had a long enough opportunity to right the 20 ship. And I'm not convinced that you have, and 21 I'm not convinced that you ever will. The fact of 22 the matter is, if you had come forward however 23 many years ago and said, "I'm going to be an 24 underage dance club," which I believe that you 25 have largely become, I truly question whether or 83 1 not you would have been approved. I truly 2 question whether you wouldn't have had, whether 3 they're a business or other residential neighbors 4 who are in the Walker's Point Association, coming 5 forward and saying, "Yeah, we embrace that." But 6 that is what you have become. And, frankly, I 7 think that there have been too many problems; 8 there has been too much garbage that's gone on. 9 And I think the only way to right the ship is to 10 not renew this license. 11 So, Madam Chair, that is why I make the 12 motion. 13 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: The motion by 14 Alderman Bohl is nonrenewal based on neighborhood 15 testimony, based on the testimony of the alderman 16 and based on the police report including the items 17 previously mentioned. Is there any objection to 18 this motion other than my own? The motion will -- 19 hearing no objections -- the motion, hearing one 20 objection, the motion will prevail, will pass. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Stephens. 22 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Madam Chair. 23 Mr. Pliss, the Committee will be doing a 24 reporting of its finding of facts and conclusions 25 of law recommending to the Milwaukee Common 84 1 Council that your license be nonrenewed. You will 2 receive a copy of that report. You will have an 3 opportunity to file written exceptions to that 4 report. If you do, they must be received by the 5 city clerk by 4:45 p.m. on 15th of September 2011. 6 If you submit those written objections, you will 7 also have the opportunity to appear before the 8 Milwaukee Common Council when it considers this 9 matter on September 20, 2011, in the Common 10 Council chambers of this building located on the 11 same floor you're on now but on the other end of 12 the building. 13 Please be advised that this report is a 14 recommendation to the full Common Council. The 15 Common Council makes the final decision whether 16 your license will be renewed, renewed with a 17 suspension between 10 and 90 days or nonrenewed. 18 Do you understand that, Mr. Pliss? 19 MR. PLISS: Yes. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Thank you 21 all. 22 23 24 25 85 1 STATE OF WISCONSIN ) ) SS: 2 COUNTY OF WALWORTH ) 3 4 5 I, KAREN RENEE, Court Reporter and 6 Notary Public in and for the State of Wisconsin, do 7 hereby certify that the above hearing of the LICENSES 8 COMMITTEE was recorded by me on September 9, 2011, and 9 reduced to writing under my personal direction. 10 I further certify that I am not a 11 relative or employee or attorney or counsel of any of 12 the parties, or a relative or employee of such attorney 13 or counsel, or financially interested directly or 14 indirectly in this action. 15 In witness whereof I have hereunder set 16 my hand and affixed my seal of office at Burlington, 17 Wisconsin, this 17th day of September, 2011. 18 19 ___________________________ 20 Karen Renee Court Reporter and Notary Public 21 In and for the State of Wisconsin 22 23 My Commission Expires: March 11, 2012. 24 25