LICENSES COMMITTEE CITY OF MILWAUKEE * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * In the Matter of: TEXTURE NIGHTCLUB Class "B" Tavern and Tavern Amusement SALVATORE SALVO, "POP PROMOTIONS" 606 South 5th Street * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The above-entitled cause, taken under and pursuant to all applicable rules, before KAREN RENEE, Court Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Wisconsin, on June 21, 2011. 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 MAISTELMAN & ASSOCIATES, by MR. DAVID HALBROOKS, 3 MR. MATTHEW LERNER, 5027 West North Avenue, 4 Milwaukee, Wisconsin, appeared on behalf of Envy Lounge and Nightclub. 5 MR. ADAM STEPHENS, 6 809 North Broadway, Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202, 7 appeared on behalf of the City of Milwaukee. 8 * * * * * 9 I N D E X 10 11 Testimony By: Page 12 Ms. Kaufmann...................................... 11 Lieutenant MacGillis.............................. 67 13 Officer Agnew..................................... 98 Father Shields.................................... 106 14 Mr. Salvo......................................... 113 Mr. Phillips...................................... 151 15 16 Items Entered Into The Record: Page 17 No. 1 -E-Mails From E-Book Pages 203 through 212.. 20 No. 2 -Motion Objection Provided By Mr. Halbrooks. 79 18 No. 3 -June 21, 2011, Letter From Father Shields.. 108 No. 4 -Incident Report Packet Dated 3/6/2011...... 135 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: This is the resumption 3 of the Common Council Licenses Committee. 4 It is approximately 11:50 in the morning 5 on Tuesday the 21st of June. Today is officially 6 summer solstice, first day of summer solstice. 7 We have the last matter on our agenda 8 for today. It is for Salvatore Salvo, agent for 9 Pop Promotions, LLC, a Class B Tavern and Tavern 10 Amusement License Renewal Application as agent for 11 Pop Promotions for Texture at 606 South 5th 12 Street. 13 Good morning to you. 14 And, Mr. Halbrooks, good morning. If 15 you could state your appearance? 16 MR. HALBROOKS: Good morning, Mr. Chair, 17 Members. I am Attorney David Halbrooks. With me, 18 as always, Attorney Matt Lerner, who is with 19 Maistelman and Associates, and also at the table 20 is Mr. Donato Salvo. 21 MR. SALVO: Good morning. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Good morning. 23 We will actually swear you in here. 24 Alderman Witkowiak has previously been 25 sworn in. 4 1 I used to call you Sergeant MacGillis. 2 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Lieutenant, sir. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You got promoted to 4 lieutenant here. If you intend to provide 5 testimony in this matter, we'll swear you in at 6 the table at this point, so. 7 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 8 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 9 Wisconsin that the testimony you are about to give 10 is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 11 truth? 12 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: I do. 13 MR. SALVO: I do. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Can I just see a 15 show of hands of individuals who are present in 16 our audience who have intentions to provide 17 testimony in this hearing? And that would be for 18 anyone who is either in favor of the license or 19 anyone who is opposed to the license. If there is 20 anyone who intends to provide any testimony either 21 in favor or opposed, if I could see a show of 22 those hands of those persons? Okay, I see 23 approximately four individuals. I would ask that 24 those individuals keep their hands raised at this 25 time; we will have you all swear in. I'm going to 5 1 restate this one more time, okay, just so we're 2 perfectly clear -- hold on. Just so we're 3 perfectly clear, I will ask for individuals who 4 intend to provide testimony, this is the 5 opportunity to be sworn in at this time. If you 6 think that it is remotely possible that you may 7 decide a half-hour from now that you want to 8 provide testimony, I would suggest you raise your 9 hand now; it is not my job or this Committee's job 10 to swear people in five times through the course 11 of the day. I will ask again, if there is anyone 12 who wishes to provide testimony in this hearing, 13 please have your right hand raised now so you may 14 be sworn in at this time. 15 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair, if I may 16 add? Any individuals who are under subpoena 17 should also be, at this point, sworn in. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Likewise, if there may 19 be -- there were two subpoenas that were issued 20 here. So if there is anyone who is under subpoena 21 that they likewise. Thank you. 22 At this time, you may swear them in. 23 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 24 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 25 Wisconsin that the testimony you are about to give 6 1 is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 2 truth? 3 ALL: Yes. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I will call a contested 5 hearing in this matter. We will go by the Council 6 rules that pertain to a contested hearing. 7 Of those individuals who were sworn in, 8 may I see a show of hands of those who are here in 9 opposition to the license? All right. And then 10 the others are in support of the license? Okay. 11 At this time here, I will ask of 12 Mr. Salvo or Mr. Halbrooks, do you acknowledge 13 receiving a notice of today's meeting with the 14 possibility that the application may be denied? 15 MR. SALVO: Yes. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Thank you. 17 This is a renewal. Ms. Grill, we should 18 have no holds? 19 MS. GRILL: That's correct. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Sergeant, we'll 21 go to you. 22 And just so everyone is aware, this is a 23 matter that has been previously remanded back. 24 This is a -- this is -- from the court system, 25 however, this particular hearing should not 7 1 consider any matters that have been previously 2 heard and discussed. This would be considered any 3 matter that is for regular renewal with only the 4 past license year under consideration. 5 Is that correct, Mr. Stephens? 6 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: That is correct. 7 MR. HALBROOKS: If I may? It's not been 8 remanded. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I stand corrected on 10 that. I just wanted to say that we've had this, a 11 continuation in the past. This is considered a 12 new hearing in terms of a standard renewal. 13 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Correct. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sergeant, the past 15 license year, from the police report, please. 16 SERGEANT RADEN: Incident No. 20 was 17 previously reported. There is a disposition on it 18 now. As of 5/9/2011, this is regarding the tavern 19 charges to be posted, there was a citation, there 20 was a guilty finding, a fine of $200. 21 On 9/6/2010, at 1:58 a.m., Milwaukee 22 police observed a large crowd gathering in the 23 street in front of Texture Nightclub located at 24 606 South 5th Street. Security officers were 25 flagging down police to report that subjects were 8 1 attempting to fight with security and making 2 threats to shoot up the place. Officers called 3 for more squads to the scene. Police were advised 4 that two security officers had to spray pepper 5 spray at the three subjects who were disorderly. 6 Police were told that the three subjects were 7 inside the club refusing to leave. When verbal 8 attempts failed to have the subjects leave, 9 security attempted to physically remove them. 10 Once they got the subjects to the door, threats 11 were made to security, and one subject was 12 overheard stating he had a gun in his car. A 13 fight occurred between the subjects and security. 14 And that is when security, a security guard, 15 utilized the pepper spray. Citations were issued 16 to the subjects for disorderly conduct. 17 On 3/14/2011 at 1:25 a.m., Milwaukee 18 Police were monitoring the closing at Club 19 Texture. Officers observed an auto playing 20 excessively loud music and conducted a traffic 21 stop. Investigation found that the patron had 22 just left Texture Club. One passenger was 23 arrested on an outstanding warrant. 24 On 3/6/2011 at 1:58 a.m., Milwaukee 25 Police were monitoring the closing at Texture and 9 1 observed 40 to 50 people fighting with security as 2 they exited the club. More squads were called to 3 the scene to gain control of the scene. The 4 fights were broken up, and three subjects were 5 cited for disorderly conduct. 6 On 3/28/2011 at 1:00 a.m., a squad car 7 had to call for more squads to attempt to help 8 with a large crowd of about 30 subjects outside of 9 the club. An investigation found the club was at 10 capacity and was not letting any other patrons in 11 the club for the rest of the night. Loitering 12 citations were issued to two subjects. 13 On 4/2/2011 at 12:10 a.m., a battery 14 complaint was taken at the 2nd Precinct that 15 occurred in front of Texture Nightclub. The 16 victim stated she and her cousin had left Texture 17 Nightclub and were driving in front of the tavern 18 when a car that was also parked in front of the 19 tavern pulled out in front of her and struck her 20 vehicle. She got out to look at her vehicle, and 21 the driver of the other vehicle exited his vehicle 22 and began yelling obscenities at her. The driver, 23 without provocation, struck her four to five times 24 in the face causing pain and a bloody nose. The 25 victim stated she attempted to get back into her 10 1 car but the subject followed her and struck her 2 several more times. The victim sought medical 3 assistance and was treated for a fractured nose. 4 A follow-up was conducted, and officers located 5 the driver of the other vehicle. His statement 6 was similar to the one given by the victim, only 7 the subject stated the driver of the other car was 8 the only one who got physical first and that he 9 was just defending himself. 10 On 4/12/2011, officers conducted 11 follow-up with security guards at Texture and 12 requested a copy of the video surveillance from 13 the club. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Sergeant. 15 At this time, what I'm going to do is, I 16 will call forward the witness who is here to 17 testify in opposition to the license. 18 Mr. Halbrooks, what I will do is provide 19 you and your client an opportunity to address the 20 police reports after we've heard from the 21 individual who is here in opposition. So that 22 will not be part of the 30 minutes; however, I 23 will provide you that opportunity all at one time. 24 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay, that's fine. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If there is anyone who 11 1 is here to testify in opposition to the license, 2 they may come forward at this time. 3 MS. KAUFMANN: Julie Kaufmann, 255 West 4 Bruce Street. 5 I'd like to preface my comments by 6 saying I feel very intimidated. I apologize. I 7 feel very intimidated speaking here, and I have a 8 fear about speaking. I recognize I'm the only one 9 here, so I'm going to try and struggle through. I 10 feel intimidated for two specific reasons. There 11 are many reasons, but I'd like to share two. 12 The first is, this licensee has been a 13 problem for a long time. And when we initially 14 sought to seek to work with the applicant, we held 15 a hearing at Bradley Tech because so many people 16 wanted to participate -- excuse me. And at that 17 hearing, the applicant brought -- 18 MR. HALBROOKS: I'm going to object. I 19 don't know if she is talking this year or not. I 20 think she is talking about a previous license 21 year, which the court has ruled -- 22 MS. KAUFMANN: I'm talking about how I 23 feel testifying. 24 MR. HALBROOKS: I'm going to object 25 because she is not talking about the license year. 12 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Mr. Halbrooks, 2 that's fine. 3 Ms. Kaufmann, as much as possible -- and 4 we understand your concerns, and that you have 5 been here -- just provide you assurance that 6 you're fine, safe here, that we would just ask you 7 to relegate the comments that you have to items 8 that have taken place in the last license year, so 9 roughly about a year ago until now. 10 MS. KAUFMANN: Roughly, within the last 11 year, I had an experience, just after a testimony, 12 with this applicant, which I believe occurred last 13 year; I don't know the exact date. It actually 14 occurred here at city hall. And I was approached 15 by counsel, who I don't know personally and only 16 know through this experience, Mr. Halbrooks, in 17 the hallway. And he proceeded to tell me that he 18 had an experience at one of the local restaurants 19 that happened to testify in opposition to the 20 applicant. This happened in the last year. 21 MR. HALBROOKS: Objection, this didn't 22 happen. Objection, I never have talked to this 23 woman. 24 MS. KAUFMANN: I'm under oath. 25 MR. HALBROOKS: I talked to the person 13 1 that she's -- 2 ALDERMAN KOVAC: She is under oath. 3 Stop interrupting her. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Halbrooks, please. 5 She's under oath. 6 MS. KAUFMANN: And we didn't have a 7 conversation, he just talked to me and said that 8 he had an experience at that restaurant that made 9 him gravely ill and that, essentially, he could 10 have been or may have been hospitalized and that 11 the operator should worry more about his own 12 business rather than the applicant; otherwise, he 13 is liable to get shut down. Within a few weeks of 14 that, that operator's windows were smashed. And 15 I'm in no way alleging anything; I'm just 16 expressing that I have a fear about testifying. 17 Subsequent to that hearing, I resigned 18 my volunteership as the license liaison in my 19 neighborhood as a result of many things that I'm 20 not going to get into because they have occurred 21 over a period of time and aren't directly 22 relevant. Despite that fear, I would like to 23 express that I'm opposed to this license renewal 24 because I think the operator is not responsible, 25 is not responsive to neighborhood concerns. And I 14 1 have submitted a number of my concerns, I won't 2 repeat them; they're probably on the record, 3 regarding noise, public urination, drag racing, 4 loud music, swearing, threats, direct threats to 5 me personally, direct threats to my property made 6 by customers of Texture. So I would request that 7 you consider denying this application. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 9 Questions by Committee? 10 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac. 12 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Could you go into more 13 detail? It's okay if you don't know specific 14 dates, but you mentioned several activities, and 15 you said that you're pretty sure they occurred in 16 the last year, could you go into more detail of 17 the activities and how often they have occurred? 18 MS. KAUFMANN: The activities generally 19 occur various nights when Texture is open, and 20 they generally occur once a week, more or less; 21 certainly, multiple times monthly. I've stopped 22 calling repeatedly about the incidents because I 23 perceive it as futile despite being advised 24 otherwise. But oftentimes, I'll shoot Rebecca an 25 e-mail at 1:30 or 2:00 in the morning when it 15 1 happens, and it's noise directly adjacent to 2 Texture; fighting. It's usually around bar time, 3 you know, usually between the hours of 1:15 a.m. 4 and 2:00 a.m. Depending on the nature of it, if I 5 am directly confronted when I go outside, I'll 6 call the police, or if it's particularly loud or 7 drag racing that doesn't seem to cease, I'll call 8 the police. The police have been working harder, 9 and I've noticed more police presence in the past 10 couple months, usually around 1:30 a.m. So 11 oftentimes, I won't have to call. I'll notice it, 12 and I'll see the cops are already responding. 13 Is that sufficient in terms of more 14 information? 15 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Yeah. So you're saying 16 the drag racing is pretty regular. What about the 17 direct threats to your property by customers? 18 MS. KAUFFMAN: Those are less frequent. 19 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And what -- can you, 20 since it's less frequently, could you explain 21 specifically some incidents? 22 MS. KAUFMANN: When the drag racing 23 occurs -- it's usually related to drag racing; 24 otherwise, I can't really tell you specifically 25 where they are coming from; I can suspect, but 16 1 I'll be told I'm telling you hearsay. So it's 2 when the patrons leave Texture, get in their cars, 3 and it's like they zoom around. It's right around 4 the Bradley Tech parking lot and the field. And 5 the two times that I recall -- I'm not sure if my 6 complaints give you the dates -- I went outside to 7 ask people who were dragging in front of my house 8 to stop, and in both times, you know, asked where 9 they are coming from, because I've gotten good at 10 making sure I can get that. And they swear at me, 11 so if you want me to say exactly what they said -- 12 yes? "Fuck off, bitch." "You want us to get out 13 and kick your ass?" Those were the two that I 14 remember. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by Committee? 16 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair, if I may? 17 Ms. Kaufmann, can you describe in your 18 own words why you believe that the people that 19 have disrupted your peaceful enjoyment of your 20 house, why you believe that they are associated 21 with this particular licensed premise and not 22 another licensed premise in the neighborhood? 23 MS. KAUFFMAN: In the two incidents 24 where they yelled at me, I specifically asked, 25 where you're coming from. I know that sounds 17 1 weird, but I've been so frustrated over the last 2 two years, I actually ask, "Are you coming from a 3 party at Texture?" "Yeah, what's it to you?" So 4 I got from that response on those two I just 5 mentioned. 6 And the other instances, there's nights 7 of the week -- in the past, I don't know -- I 8 haven't monitored this, but when Texture is the 9 only bar open -- I think it's Wednesday night, was 10 it? I hesitate to say because now I'll have it 11 used against me, but the other times, I basically 12 can see, I can see Texture from my house. 13 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: You have a direct 14 line of sight from your house to the Texture 15 Nightclub? 16 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes. 17 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And you can see 18 patrons entering and exiting? 19 MS. KAUFMANN: I can't see the front 20 door, no. In the past, I have gotten out, I have 21 gotten out in the middle of the night, I walked to 22 it and observed it. So I can provide direct 23 testimony, but I can't say in every instance of my 24 concern that I've personally observed persons walk 25 out the front door of Texture, no, I can't; in 18 1 every case, I can't. 2 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And besides the 3 incidents that you've documented about drag 4 racing, you mentioned, I believe -- just so you 5 are aware, your e-mails that you sent are not part 6 of the record. Your sworn testimony today is the 7 record. So if you can, as best you can, identify 8 those times where you've sent e-mails to summarize 9 to this Committee the behaviors and activities, A, 10 that you observed, and, B, why you believe those 11 activities and behaviors were associated with this 12 particular license versus any other, would be 13 helpful in terms of making sure this record is as 14 complete as possible. 15 MS. KAUFMANN: I apologize, the last 16 time I came and brought all of the specific dates 17 and it was taken away, and I felt it was used 18 against me somehow. So I didn't write down all of 19 the dates. But I'm imagining that I called, I 20 probably called the alderman himself directly 12 21 times in the past year. I've probably e-mailed 22 the license office a minimum of six of those times 23 just to document it for the record. I've spoken 24 with police officers, dispatch, approximately six 25 times over the past year at minimally. And on 19 1 those occasions, I directly had feedback from 2 customers stating they came from Texture. I 3 directly observed them leaving the front door of 4 Texture on at lease two of those occasions. On 5 other occasions, I deduced it. Some of the time, 6 they're the only club open that night, at least 7 they used to be. Others, because I'm surrounded 8 by bars, and -- I have a very -- I have a 9 familiarity with the patterns of patrons. 10 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And, for the record, 11 your, the e-mails -- well, were you truthful in 12 your e-mails, when you sent your e-mails? 13 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes. 14 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Thank you, Mr. 15 Chair. I don't have anything further. 16 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Mr. Chairman. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Let me just see, 18 Alderman Witkowiak, if there are any additional 19 questions by Committee. 20 Would there be a desire to make copies 21 of the e-mails that were provided to the license 22 division that are part of the agenda file here 23 part of the record? 24 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: So moved. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. The motion by 20 1 Alderwoman Coggs. 2 I have the e-mails that are on our 3 E-book from Pages 203, -4, -5, -6, -7, -8, -9, 4 -10, -11, -12. So Alderwoman Coggs would move to 5 make those e-mails that are copies that are 6 provided as part of our agenda here and where 7 e-mails that have been sent by Ms. Kaufmann here 8 part of our official record in this proceeding. 9 Are there any objections to that motion? Hearing 10 none, so ordered. 11 Any additional questions by Committee of 12 this witness? 13 Alderman Witkowiak. 14 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Mr. Chairman, would 15 it be okay if I questioned the witness about the 16 e-mails? 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Would that be 18 appropriate, Mr. Stephens, at this point? 19 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: It's up to the chair 20 and this committee. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I will say this much, 22 Alderman Witkowiak, I mean, it will be part of the 23 time that is, that would be allotted here for the 24 30 minutes. So if you don't mind that, I don't 25 have an objection. 21 1 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: No. If I can ask 2 the question, is the fact that you submitted these 3 to the record, is that just as good as someone 4 reading them out loud? The witness here has, does 5 not have the e-mails with her, or she would use 6 her time to testify. This is the e-mail I wrote 7 in this -- I have a copy of those e-mails because 8 I was the recipient of such. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sure. 10 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: So if you want, I 11 mean, I can read these e-mails. They'll become 12 part of the transcript in the record, but is that 13 just as good, accepting them into the record as 14 you have done here, and, A, B, can I be assured 15 that each committee member will read and observe 16 these? 17 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Well, I think, I 18 would want to know whether or not counsel was 19 provided copies of the e-mails. Clearly, if they 20 were, then they have an opportunity to cross 21 examine Ms. Kaufmann as to those e-mails. If this 22 chair and the committee is going to take these 23 e-mails into the record, I believe you can make, 24 you could base your decision on these e-mails. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Have you been provided 22 1 copies? 2 MR. HALBROOKS: We were provided copies. 3 Obviously, in terms of the Committee taking them 4 into consideration at this point, we would have an 5 objection; without the testimony, they're all 6 hearsay. At this point, there is no validation or 7 authentication of them. And, obviously, I haven't 8 had a chance to cross examine on the details of 9 the e-mails. 10 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair, the city 11 attorney just authenticated them in his direct -- 12 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: If he is contending 13 they are hearsay, then I want to question the 14 witness. I want to read this, and I want to say, 15 "Did you send me that e-mail on that date," so 16 it's clear for the record. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I will -- given our 18 ability to substantiate that, I will note your 19 objection for the record, and I will deny that. 20 We will -- assuming that there is proper 21 validation, I will note your objection. And 22 provided that it is substantiated here at that 23 point, I will then deny your motion to not have 24 those entered. 25 MR. HALBROOKS: I don't think -- I 23 1 didn't make that motion. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You didn't? 3 MR. HALBROOKS: No, I didn't say 4 anything. But what I'm saying is the following -- 5 and I want to make sure for the lawyers in the 6 room that the documents -- I understand the 7 documents as hearsay can come in, but the contents 8 in them still has to be -- she still has to 9 authenticate that these things happened and submit 10 to cross examination on them. So the e-mails, the 11 documents were in the -- we were given notice 12 of -- and I didn't say anything on that, but with 13 regard to the content of them, obviously, we're 14 going to have to go through them in detail. And 15 you'll have to decide whether or not you want to 16 -- and I hope that -- I mean, it's going to take a 17 while; there's a lot of e-mails. And there hasn't 18 been any kind of definitive -- so this is the only 19 way we're going to get out of her specifically 20 what happened. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. We'll move 22 forward then. They are part of the record. 23 Alderman, just so you are aware, though, 24 and I want to be very clear, we establish for 25 these hearings 30 minutes for each side. This 24 1 will be counting towards that 30 minutes. I will 2 additionally indicate that part, if Sergeant 3 MacGillis -- I'm sorry, Lieutenant MacGillis here, 4 is part of that 30 minutes, this will count toward 5 and away from that time. I don't purport to make 6 those rules, but it has to be even-sided on both 7 sides. 8 Alderman. 9 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Mr. Chairman, I'm 10 just trying to get to the facts. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No, I understand that. 12 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: You can't assume 13 I'm on one side or another. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No, okay. 15 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Because I'm not, I 16 just want to get to the facts. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I -- what I will 18 indicate though is any substantiation of a record 19 for a person who is an objector will count towards 20 that 30 minutes toward the objection. 21 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. So I have no 23 problem with allowing that, but what I will say is 24 that it will fairly be allotted for that time 25 toward a witness who is an objector. 25 1 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Thank you. 2 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderwoman Coggs. 4 ALDERMAN COGGS: So it is your 5 intention, Alderman Witkowiak, to read the 6 e-mails? 7 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Yes. 8 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Why wouldn't we just 9 have the author of the e-mails read them into the 10 record? I'm just wondering. 11 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair, if I may? 12 That would be, frankly, the easiest way to do 13 this. The records, the statements that Ms. 14 Kaufmann has made in writing ostensibly were made 15 at the time she was directly observing them. 16 They're records that she created, that she could 17 rely on, A, reflect or refresh her recollection 18 or -- 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 20 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: -- and that would be 21 the cleanest way to do it. Because the record 22 themselves aren't evidence, per se; it's her 23 observations that's the evidence, and her sworn 24 testimony is the evidence. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. 26 1 Ms. Kaufmann, we'll have you look at 2 those particular records, and you can then 3 substantiate, after providing a date, if it was 4 your recollection of sending a series of events in 5 or around that date, time if that was applied to 6 an incident or event that you recall taking place 7 at that time. Okay. So however you wish to 8 proceed, if you want to say, "E-mail that I sent 9 on Sunday, May 22nd, at this time -- " we'll allow 10 you to move forward. I mean, if you don't wish to 11 do that, that's fine. I don't want to hoist 12 anything on your shoulders here, but -- 13 MS. KAUFMANN: I don't have counsel to 14 advise me. I guess I'll read some. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. All right. 16 MS. KAUFMANN: "Thursday, June 2nd, 1:47 17 a.m., Alderman Witkowiak, I'm writing to register 18 a noise complaint against Texture. Warm weather 19 brings typical disturbances around closing. 20 Mostly tonight, patrons who were obnoxiously loud, 21 awakening my household. This is consistent 22 behavior. Tonight is a weekday. Tonight, gunfire 23 was also heard, four shots were fired. We saw an 24 almost immediate response from the police. People 25 quickly scattering. And now I'm afraid to learn 27 1 in the morning if there was a terrible outcome for 2 some individual." I'm paraphrasing. Should I 3 read this verbatim? I was kind of skipping over 4 words, not thinking I should be reading verbatim 5 what it says. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You should be reading 7 verbatim. 8 MS. KAUFMANN: Can I just read parts of 9 it to expedite? 10 MR. HALBROOKS: Yeah. 11 MS. KAUFMANN: Okay. That's effectively 12 what it said. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Now, on that particular 14 item, to your recollection, that was a part of an 15 incident that would have occurred that evening? 16 MS. KAUFMANN: Wednesday, that would 17 have been the evening. Thursday morning 1:47 18 a.m., that's when I sent it -- what I was awoken 19 by, and I sent it right away. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Please 21 proceed. 22 MS. KAUFMANN: The next e-mail I sent to 23 the license, Rebecca Grill, at 7:00 a.m. on Monday 24 morning. "I would like to register a complaint 25 about Texture. Tonight, we were once again 28 1 awakened by yelling customers, drag racing, tire 2 squealing, loud music, honking horns. The 3 customers spill out en masse and have no respect 4 for adjacent residents. The operator is 5 facilitating the problems and failing to take 6 effective measures to eliminate these problems. 7 Today's warmer weather perhaps marks the beginning 8 of high season for the negative impact on our 9 quality of life. We don't bother trying to leave 10 our windows open anymore; this happens with them 11 shut. I'm very concerned about trying to live 12 through another summer with Texture. I did not 13 separately contact the police because I saw them 14 already on the scene. This is appreciated since 15 it shut down the nuisance faster than normal. I 16 don't have contact information for any police rep, 17 so I would appreciate it if you would share my 18 complaint and gratitude with them after the fact." 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And the date of that? 20 MS. KAUFMANN: That was May 23rd, 7 21 a.m., registering a complaint regarding Sunday, 22 May 22nd. 23 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. 24 If you may, Ms. Kaufmann, if you could 25 just acknowledge for the e-mail, that actual time 29 1 that you sent that e-mail and whether or not the 2 activities that you documenting in the e-mail were 3 observed by you within a reasonable amount of time 4 of drafting that e-mail? Meaning, it appears on 5 the face of the e-mail that you sent it at 2:28 6 a.m. 7 MS. KAUFMANN: Oh, I apologize, I did 8 send it Sunday, May 22nd, at 2:28 a.m. 9 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And would you have 10 observed this activity shortly before or during 11 the time you wrote this e-mail? 12 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes. 13 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Thank you. 14 MS. KAUFMANN: The remaining e-mails 15 seem to have the similar kinds of complaints. If 16 I could generalize and just tell you when I sent 17 them, would that be helpful? 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Certainly. 19 MS. KAUFMANN: One was sent Sunday, 20 March 27th, at 7:30 a.m.; I wrote that in response 21 to the prior night of Saturday, March 26th, 22 regarding disturbances for significantly loud 23 noise. In this particular e-mail, what I mention, 24 which is often the case, is that I'm home alone 25 with -- I can't leave my home to go directly 30 1 observe, which is what I'd like to do so that my 2 testimony would become credible, but I can't leave 3 my son alone. So I -- I can't do that, so I 4 reference that in this e-mail -- sorry, because 5 I'm often home alone with my child. 6 I sent another one on Sunday, March 7 27th. Is that the one I just said? Sorry. 8 Thursday, October 14th, this was an 9 e-mail to the alderman indicating that I'm 10 resigning my participation on the license 11 committee for my neighborhood because of my fear, 12 that doing so has subjected my family to potential 13 personal retaliation. 14 I don't want to read the rest. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by Committee? 16 Ms. Kaufmann, there was another e-mail 17 that was dated October 14, 2010, I'm just 18 wondering if, from a glance at it, you could 19 substantiate that, to your recollection, that 20 corroborates with an e-mail that you sent out to 21 the alderman? 22 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And then the same is 24 true of, as I'm paging down, on July 26, 2010? 25 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes. And I'm happy to 31 1 read those if it's helpful. Yes, I can 2 substantiate I sent those. They're true, they're 3 from me. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. All right. And 5 they are, to your recollection, relating to events 6 that you witnessed in or around the time that you 7 sent those e-mails? 8 MS. KAUFMANN: These two e-mails relate 9 to events about concerns of Texture. They also 10 relate to fears of myself and my neighbors that 11 have felt that us raising concerns that -- 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I just want to 13 address -- yeah, I mean, I understand what you're 14 alleging here, but I want to have you focus on you 15 own as opposed to -- 16 MS. KAUFMANN: I -- 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- any hearsay testimony 18 of neighbors. 19 MS. KAUFMANN: Part of what I talk about 20 here is not just concerns about the bar, but 21 concerns about my own participation in the process 22 and my belief that it's futile, and that there is 23 a very chilling effect on my own testimony in my 24 -- that's what they say. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Any 32 1 additional questions by Committee at this time? 2 Mr. Halbrooks, Mr. Lerner, questions of 3 this witness? 4 MR. HALBROOKS: Mr. Chair. 5 Were you home last weekend? 6 MS. KAUFMANN: No. 7 MR. HALBROOKS: You were not there last 8 weekend, either Friday, Saturday or Sunday night? 9 MS. KAUFMANN: Last weekend being just 10 this past weekend, yes, I was home on Sunday. 11 MR. HALBROOKS: Can you describe the 12 disturbances that night at closing? 13 MS. KAUFMANN: Did I submit a complaint 14 about it? 15 MR. HALBROOKS: I'll ask the questions. 16 MS. KAUFMANN: I do remember on Sunday 17 night being awoken about 1:30. I didn't think I 18 submitted anything then, that I thought about it, 19 but I didn't have my phone near me to send 20 anything in, and in the morning, I didn't get 21 around to it, but I saw the police respond pretty 22 quickly. 23 MR. HALBROOKS: To where? 24 MS. KAUFMANN: The intersection of 5th 25 and Bruce. 33 1 MR. HALBROOKS: And you were awakened by 2 what? 3 MS. KAUFMANN: I don't remember it as 4 strongly, that particular date. I mean, I don't 5 think I sought a complaint, because it was 6 probably just all the noise around bar time, you 7 know, that happens every night. 8 MR. HALBROOKS: What time is bar time? 9 MS. KAUFMANN: In general? 10 MR. HALBROOKS: When you say "bar time," 11 what time are you referring to? 12 MS. KAUFMANN: My perception of bar time 13 I think is different on the weekends than on 14 weekdays. I think it's earlier in the week. The 15 noise time that I perceive as to be bar time is 16 generally between -- when I say that, I mean, 17 between 12:00 a.m. and 2:30 a.m. 18 MR. HALBROOKS: So when you -- just for 19 the Committee's sake, when you say "bar time," 20 you're referring to a two-and-a-half-hour period? 21 MS. KAUFMANN: You're asking an abstract 22 question about what I perceive as bar time, in 23 general, in general; not any specific incident, 24 that could be a bar time. 25 MR. HALBROOKS: And what is the closing 34 1 time for Texture? 2 MS. KAUFMANN: On what day? 3 MR. HALBROOKS: Do you know when Texture 4 closes? 5 MS. KAUFMANN: Between 1:00 -- between 6 12:00 -- is that p.m. or a.m.? 1:00 a.m. 7 MR. HALBROOKS: Texture closes at 1:00 8 a.m. on which nights? 9 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderwoman Coggs. 11 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: And I may be wrong, 12 and the city attorney can tell me, she had not 13 been testifying to the close time of Texture. 14 Would it not be more appropriate for the attorney 15 to be asking, "Did you know that Texture closes at 16 such and such a day," as opposed to making this a 17 quiz about a knowledge of close time, which is not 18 something that she directly testified to for 19 Texture? Because, honestly, I don't want to sit 20 here for hours and watch her guess at times just 21 to try to have a bust-out moment; that's not what 22 we're here for. 23 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: I think -- I 24 understand the alderwoman's concerns. I think the 25 choice the counsel uses for cross examining 35 1 witnesses is his own choice and his own style. I 2 would remind the Committee there is time 3 limitations here, and, you know, the Committee, I 4 think, should give great leeway to counsel to 5 allow us cross examination, but clearly have the 6 ability to limit it if it's repetitious. 7 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 8 MR. HALBROOKS: Mr. Chair, the time 9 isn't being counted against anybody for cross, 10 right, at this point? 11 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: It should be. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So I would ask you to 13 move on. I'm not stopping you. 14 MR. HALBROOKS: No, I appreciate it. I 15 just want to point out that with all of these 16 e-mails coming in, I have to do some foundational 17 questions before I get to the e-mails. 18 So I want to know what nights, on what 19 nights and what time does Texture close that you 20 know? 21 MS. KAUFMANN: I don't know with 22 certainty. 23 MR. HALBROOKS: You don't know what time 24 Texture closes -- 25 MS. KAUFMANN: On any night. 36 1 MR. HALBROOKS: -- on any particular 2 night? 3 MS. KAUFMANN: No. 4 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Now, on -- 5 you mentioned that you resigned as chair of the -- 6 the license chair of -- what's the organization? 7 Walker's Point what? 8 MS. KAUFMANN: Walker's Point 9 Association. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And there is nobody else 11 here from that association, is there? Correct? 12 MS. KAUFMANN: I can't say I know for 13 sure whether the members of the audience are 14 members of the association or not. 15 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. And you 16 indicated in your -- you indicated that you 17 resigned to avoid further assault on your 18 integrity. What did you mean by that? 19 MS. KAUFMANN: I find this process 20 intimidating directly when I'm cross examined, 21 whether it's reasonable or not, I feel that my 22 integrity is impugned. It's suggested that I'm 23 lying, which is, I know not what you are doing; 24 that's just how I feel. So it felt like an 25 assault on my integrity. I've been called names 37 1 that impugned me. 2 MR. HALBROOKS: My question for you is, 3 something happened that week in October that led 4 to the questioning of your integrity, didn't it? 5 MS. KAUFMANN: I can't remember. 6 MR. HALBROOKS: Didn't you file a report 7 with the Walker's Point Association indicating 8 that the previous weekend that there had been 9 problems at Texture and Sugar? You were not at 10 the meeting and Ursula Twomby (phonetic) read that 11 report, and when the owners of all of the clubs 12 were there and spoke up and indicated there had 13 been no concerns that that's when your integrity 14 came into question? 15 MS. KAUFMANN: That sounds right. 16 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay. So you filed a 17 report with Walker's Point that there had been 18 trouble on the weekend at two clubs, and there had 19 been no trouble. 20 MS. KAUFMANN: I didn't understand what 21 you just said. 22 MR. HALBROOKS: There had been no 23 trouble on that weekend at Texture or Sugar, yet 24 you filed a report that there had been, and that's 25 the integrity issue that led you to resign, 38 1 correct? 2 MS. KAUFMANN: I'm truly sorry, I still 3 don't understand the question. There was no 4 issue, and so I -- 5 MR. HALBROOKS: You filed a false report 6 with the Walker's Point Association, didn't you? 7 MS. KAUFMANN: No, I did not. 8 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. What, that 9 weekend, when you reported that there had been 10 incidents and there hadn't been none, what were 11 you referring to? 12 MS. KAUFMANN: You're saying I claimed 13 there were incidents on a weekend when there 14 weren't incidents? 15 MR. HALBROOKS: You filed a report with 16 the Walker's Point Association for a meeting you 17 didn't attend, Ursula Twomby read the report which 18 indicated there had been trouble, and when the 19 owners of Texture, Sugar and Envy were all there, 20 they all spoke up, everybody agreed and said there 21 had been no trouble that weekend. And it was 22 after that that you had to resign from the 23 organization, correct? 24 MS. KAUFMANN: Well, you're saying what 25 I did was false, rather than saying that -- no, I 39 1 didn't file a false report. If I said there was 2 something that happened that weekend, something 3 happened that weekend. 4 MR. HALBROOKS: Then why did you resign? 5 MS. KAUFMANN: I resigned because I felt 6 that I was becoming personally accused of things 7 that weren't true about me, and I feared for my 8 safety. 9 MR. HALBROOKS: When you indicate in 10 your e-mails that you're one block away from 11 Texture, how do you do that analysis? You're on 12 3rd, and Texture is 5th. 13 MS. KAUFMANN: Roughly, one block. 14 MR. HALBROOKS: Roughly, one block. So 15 roughly less than one block, or roughly more than 16 one block? 17 MS. KAUFMANN: My house is at the edge 18 of the Bradley Tech field. And there is a Bradley 19 Tech field which is approximately a short city 20 block, and then there is a church, and then there 21 is the building on the backside of Texture. 22 MR. HALBROOKS: And so you can't see 23 anybody going in or going out of Texture? 24 MS. KAUFMANN: That's correct, from my 25 house. 40 1 MR. HALBROOKS: And so, and yet when you 2 say "one block," that's not really correct, is it? 3 MS. KAUFMANN: I guess I would say 1.5; 4 two. You could say two blocks. 5 MR. HALBROOKS: Can you tell the 6 Committee how many bars in that district are 7 closer to your house than Texture? 8 MS. KAUFMANN: Not exactly. I probably 9 have 13 bars. 10 MR. HALBROOKS: Can you look at your 11 e-mails and tell the Committee, in the stack of 12 e-mails you just went through, which individuals 13 you were referring to that under oath you can tell 14 this Committee came from, that you saw leave or 15 enter Texture? In all of your e-mails, can you 16 point out the specific examples that you were 17 referring to where people, you saw them enter or 18 leave Texture? 19 MS. KAUFMANN: If I didn't say it in the 20 e-mail, I'm not going to be able to remember. Did 21 I say it any of the e-mails? 22 MR. HALBROOKS: Do you have any evidence 23 that any of the individuals you referred to, any 24 evidence for this Committee, that any of the 25 individuals you referred to came or left Texture 41 1 on any of the nights of the e-mails? 2 MS. KAUFMANN: I do have evidence 3 because I directly observed it over the past year. 4 Whether those are these incidents I put in 5 writing, I can't say. I don't know. 6 MR. HALBROOKS: How did you directly 7 observe Texture's doorway if you can't see the 8 doorway? 9 MS. KAUFMANN: Because on two occasions, 10 I left my house. 11 MR. HALBROOKS: Was that this year or 12 the last license year? 13 MS. KAUFMANN: This year. 14 MR. HALBROOKS: What days? 15 MS. KAUFMANN: I don't remember. 16 MR. HALBROOKS: So you don't even know 17 that -- did you write an e-mail on those nights? 18 MS. KAUFMANN: I don't know if I did or 19 not. 20 MR. HALBROOKS: So you don't have 21 anything to tell this Committee that any that 22 you've been -- that I can -- any of us can rely on 23 that any of these incidents involve anyone from 24 Texture in the e-mails, that you can swear under 25 oath that these individuals were from Texture? 42 1 MS. KAUFMANN: Well, there were the two 2 incidents where I asked people, and they told me. 3 MR. HALBROOKS: And you asked them if 4 they came from Texture? 5 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes. 6 MR. HALBROOKS: And what times did those 7 occur at? 8 MS. KAUFMANN: I only know generally 9 between midnight and 2:00. 10 MR. HALBROOKS: Midnight and 2:00, 11 generally? 12 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes. 13 MR. HALBROOKS: So you went out in the 14 street -- I'm trying to understand this, you went 15 out in the street and talked to these people drag 16 racing in the street? 17 MS. KAUFMANN: Right. 18 MR. HALBROOKS: And what did they do, 19 stop in front of your house, or how did that work? 20 MS. KAUFMANN: They are kind of slow 21 rolling. 22 MR. HALBROOKS: They are slow rolling 23 drag racing? 24 MS. KAUFMANN: They drag race on 4th 25 Street, generally heading south. I don't know 43 1 where they turn, they must turn on National, and 2 then they go slower. It's harder to go fast 3 because usually there are more parked cars on 3rd, 4 so they're rolling slower. And, you know, the two 5 times I'm referring to, there were a number of 6 cars, and then they go all of the way around back 7 up around the Tech, they circle around the field. 8 So they were going slower in front of my house and 9 hanging out of the windows. 10 MR. HALBROOKS: And so you went out and 11 talked to -- and these were the people that were 12 making those comments to you, those swearing 13 comments? 14 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes. 15 MR. HALBROOKS: And so, and in the midst 16 of the swearing comments, they told you where they 17 came from? 18 MS. KAUFMANN: No, that came after. 19 MR. HALBROOKS: That came after they got 20 done telling you -- they got done swearing at you, 21 and then you had a conversation with them? 22 MS. KAUFMANN: No, I said, "Hey, what 23 party are you coming from?" And they said, 24 "Texture." I said, "Could you please keep it 25 down, I'm trying to sleep?" 44 1 MR. HALBROOKS: Well, before you said 2 you asked them if they came from Texture. 3 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes, because I wanted to 4 establish that because I knew I'd be asked. 5 MR. HALBROOKS: Did you ask them if they 6 came from Texture, or did you ask them what party 7 they were coming from? 8 MS. KAUFMANN: One time I know I said, 9 "What party are you coming from?" The other time 10 I think I said, "What bar are you coming from?" I 11 don't remember exact words, but I know I asked 12 them where they were coming from. 13 MR. HALBROOKS: I remember you testified 14 to this exact same, this exact situation last 15 year, did this happen again? 16 MS. KAUFMANN: This has happened 17 repeatedly. 18 MR. HALBROOKS: Where you go out and 19 have conversations with people -- 20 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes, because often I 21 can't walk -- 22 MR. HALBROOKS: I'm talking. 23 MS. KAUFMANN: Excuse me. 24 MR. HALBROOKS: You go out and have 25 conversations with people, and that has happened 45 1 since last July? 2 MS. KAUFMANN: Because it happens with 3 regular frequency, because I can't actually walk 4 to the front of Texture and observe people coming 5 out, which I know will make my testimony less 6 strong, I go out -- because I can't leave my 7 child -- and stand on my porch, and as people come 8 past, I ask them, "Where are you coming from," to 9 establish they came from Texture. And then I 10 usually ask them to stop what they are doing, 11 which is generally making noise or in their car or 12 walking past. 13 MR. HALBROOKS: And what time did this 14 occur at again? 15 MS. KAUFMANN: As I believe I've said 16 now twice, it generally happens between 12:00 and 17 2:00. 18 MR. HALBROOKS: So you got dressed, went 19 outside, and you didn't send an e-mail about these 20 circumstances, and you didn't write down what time 21 it occurred? 22 MS. KAUFMANN: Pretty incredible isn't 23 it, how disruptive that is? And I stopped sending 24 e-mails because it doesn't seem to get me 25 anywhere. 46 1 MR. HALBROOKS: You did not send an 2 e-mail, there are no e-mails indicating anything 3 about your testimony about going out and talking 4 to the people, correct? 5 MS. KAUFMANN: I'll take your word for 6 it. I don't remember. 7 MR. HALBROOKS: Did you read any e-mails 8 to the Committee about going out and talking to 9 the people? 10 MS. KAUFMANN: Like this one on March 11 26th, "Just to notify you another disruptive 12 night, last night/morning between 2:00, 2:15 and 13 3:45. I couldn't leave my 4-year-old home alone. 14 From what I can gather, it was twins night, not 15 sure what that means, but it apparently brought in 16 a crowd." So I can't remember exactly, but that 17 might have been a night where I talked to people. 18 That's how I knew that. 19 MR. HALBROOKS: Why didn't you put that 20 in the e-mail then? 21 MS. KAUFMANN: Next year I will, when I 22 know that's going to be an important fact. I 23 don't think about being cross examined when I try 24 to summarize what I've experienced. 25 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. 47 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Halbrooks. 2 MR. HALBROOKS: Yes, sir. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We're going to need you 4 to use the microphone there. We don't get you on 5 the record at this location. 6 MR. HALBROOKS: Ms. Kaufmann, can you 7 see the map that I've placed in front of you? 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Now we don't have her on 9 the record. 10 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I mean, however best you 12 can. If -- I mean, if that's the duration, we'll 13 do the best we can here, and maybe you can just 14 point. 15 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. 16 Ms. Kaufmann, do you see the map in 17 front of you? 18 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes, I do. 19 MR. HALBROOKS: Do you see your house? 20 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes, I do. 21 MR. HALBROOKS: Can you identify your 22 house on the map for the Committee, please? 23 MS. KAUFMANN: (Pointing.) 24 MR. HALBROOKS: It's the blue dot, all 25 right. And the blue dot is -- your house faces 48 1 west, correct? 2 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes. 3 MR. HALBROOKS: And you are on the 4 corner of 3rd and Bruce? 5 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes. 6 MR. HALBROOKS: Correct. And can you 7 show the Committee where Texture is? 8 MS. KAUFMANN: (Pointing.) 9 MR. HALBROOKS: All right, so -- and 10 Texture faces the same way? 11 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes. 12 MR. HALBROOKS: And in your e-mail, you 13 are indicating that the space between your house 14 and Texture is one block? 15 MS. KAUFMANN: I do say that. And, you 16 know, part of that is that the patrons park all 17 along there. 18 MR. HALBROOKS: And how do they get to 19 your house from Texture? How do you see them 20 leaving Texture and coming by your house? 21 MS. KAUFMANN: By car. 22 MR. HALBROOKS: No. So they are in 23 their cars, how do they -- where do they come 24 from? 25 MS. KAUFMANN: Are you trying to again 49 1 establish that I can't see them coming out of 2 Texture? I don't -- what's your question? 3 MR. HALBROOKS: I'll ask the questions. 4 Where are the cars -- the cars leaving 5 Texture are driving by your house, according to 6 your testimony, how are they getting to your 7 house? What route are they taking? 8 MS. KAUFMANN: Well, typically, cars 9 either head east, then they'll turn south on 4th, 10 and they come back around 3rd. You can see the 11 cars, so you can tell they're the same cars, I 12 mean, you can see them. And then some, on 13 occasion, there's a -- there is sort of a barrier 14 that cuts through that parking lot, but a lot of 15 them still figure out you can kind of hot rod over 16 it and occasionally through the lot. Not 17 frequently, but occasionally they will cut right 18 through that parking area, but it's a little 19 tricky to do. But usually, they'll head south; 20 occasionally, they'll head north and come down 21 Virginia and come that way. 22 MR. HALBROOKS: So your testimony under 23 oath is that you see cars coming east on Bruce and 24 turning onto 4th Street? 25 MS. KAUFMANN: Yep. 50 1 MR. HALBROOKS: And this is at your 2 two-and-a-half window of bar time? 3 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes. 4 MR. HALBROOKS: And so where do they 5 park? Where do the customers of Texture park? 6 Can you show us on the map, please? 7 MS. KAUFMANN: I don't know where all of 8 the customers of Texture park. 9 MR. HALBROOKS: Well, how do you know 10 that? When you say they are Texture's, all of 11 these cars that seem to be going on this long 12 circuitous route to get in front of your house, 13 you don't have any idea what club they are coming 14 from, do you? 15 MS. KAUFMANN: I do because I've 16 established the pattern of behavior through lots 17 of observation including directly asking patrons 18 where they're coming from. 19 MR. HALBROOKS: Those two instances that 20 you -- 21 MS. KAUFMANN: And directly observing it 22 myself by going to the front door and watching the 23 pattern. Do I do that every time? No, I do not. 24 MR. HALBROOKS: When was the last time 25 you went to the front door and watched? 51 1 MS. KAUFMANN: I don't remember the last 2 date. 3 MR. HALBROOKS: It wasn't even in this 4 last year, was it? 5 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes, I did do it in this 6 last year. 7 MR. HALBROOKS: A little while ago, you 8 said you haven't been able to leave in the last 9 year because you don't want to leave your son 10 alone. 11 MS. KAUFMANN: If I said that I was 12 mistaken, but I don't recall saying that. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Halbrooks, I recall 14 her saying that she recalled doing it two times. 15 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes. 16 MR. HALBROOKS: And what dates were 17 those? 18 MS. KAUFMANN: I don't remember the 19 exact dates. 20 MR. HALBROOKS: And you didn't send 21 e-mails about that? 22 MS. KAUFMANN: Again, I guess I didn't. 23 I don't know. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Halbrooks. 25 Pardon me, Ms. Kaufmann. 52 1 I will ask you to redirect. This, I 2 call it redundant testimony. Now -- 3 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Now we're getting to the 5 point where you are badgering the witness -- 6 MR. HALBROOKS: Fine. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- by trying to hit it 8 over and over again to establish confusion. At 9 this point, I think that she has adequately 10 answered those questions, please -- 11 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. So the bars 12 that are on 2nd Street, can you identify those 13 bars for the Committee? 14 MS. KAUFMANN: The Room; Boom; Sabbatic; 15 what the heck is V Bar called? Ten Bells. Ten 16 Bells. 17 MR. HALBROOKS: What's over on the far 18 lower right corner? What are those orange dots on 19 the lower right? Yeah, what are those places? 20 MS. KAUFMANN: Zad's, Club Fuego, 21 Tony's, Caroline's. I missed one. 22 MR. HALBROOKS: Do you know when any of 23 those clubs close up shop at the end of the night? 24 MS. KAUFMANN: I would -- I don't know 25 for sure. 53 1 MR. HALBROOKS: Do you know where their 2 customers park and drive after they leave? 3 MS. KAUFMANN: Yep, I mean, quite a few 4 of them. I mean, the pattern for these two bars, 5 is that they -- these two bars generally park 6 right here. There is not much parking in front of 7 the Brewery, and there is no parking right here. 8 So most of these patrons park particularly right 9 here and around here. And a lot of them are 10 regulars; I know them. They generally are leaving 11 earlier. I don't know what the bar time is, but 12 often those patrons aren't -- there is like an 13 early set and a late set with those two bars, but 14 we never really have too many problems with them. 15 If we do, we talk directly to the bar. 16 MR. HALBROOKS: And, let's see, I'm 17 sorry, the two green dots are 24-hour places: the 18 Mobil and the McDonald's? 19 MS. KAUFMANN: Right. 20 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. And it looks 21 like, to me, all of those places are closer to you 22 than Texture, correct? 23 MS. KAUFMANN: I mean, I don't know, the 24 Mobil seems kind of equal distance to me. 25 MR. HALBROOKS: And is it your testimony 54 1 -- you don't have any idea whether any of the cars 2 coming down your street are from any of those 3 clubs, do you? 4 MS. KAUFMANN: Well, it would be strange 5 if a Mobil customer was parked -- I don't know 6 that that's not a Mobil customer parked there. 7 There might be instances where somebody parked 8 there, walked to the gas station and then walked 9 back to their car. Is that what you're asking? I 10 don't -- I can't say. 11 MR. HALBROOKS: Let me ask you about the 12 June 2nd incident. You wrote, in quite dramatic 13 fashion, about a shooting, correct? 14 MS. KAUFMANN: What date? 15 MR. HALBROOKS: June 2nd. 16 MS. KAUFMANN: I don't appear to have 17 that, but -- oh, yeah, there it is, okay. 18 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Just to 19 finish up here. On June 2nd, you reported, 20 "Tonight, as feared, gunfire also returned. Four 21 shots were fired. We saw an almost immediate 22 police response." Who is "we"? 23 MS. KAUFMANN: Thursday, June 2nd, I 24 can't remember if I was just saying that "we" in 25 terms of my family, I mean, or my husband. 55 1 MR. HALBROOKS: Well, it was just -- 2 MS. KAUFMANN: I'm assuming, I meant my 3 husband; I don't think I meant my son. 4 MR. HALBROOKS: So you don't know who 5 you meant three weeks ago when you said "we"? 6 MS. KAUFMANN: I must have meant my 7 husband. 8 MR. HALBROOKS: And where did you see 9 the police response? 10 MS. KAUFMANN: I can't say I 11 specifically remember. 12 MR. HALBROOKS: "We saw an almost 13 immediate police --" there were police, there were 14 four gunshots, immediate police response three 15 weeks ago, and you don't remember where the police 16 response was? 17 MS. KAUFMANN: If I saw it, and I was 18 referring to this, my recollection was, it was 19 somewhere here. 20 MR. HALBROOKS: Somewhere right by the 21 corner of 5th and Bruce? I'm sorry, I didn't hear 22 you. Is it your testimony under oath that you saw 23 immediate police response on the corner of 5th and 24 Bruce -- 25 MS. KAUFMANN: My testimony is I don't 56 1 exactly remember that date, exactly where the 2 police response was. 3 MR. HALBROOKS: On the next e-mail, May 4 22nd, you sent the e-mail at 2:28 a.m., correct? 5 MS. KAUFMANN: I'm sorry, which date? 6 MR. HALBROOKS: The next e-mail, May 7 22nd. 8 MS. KAUFMANN: Yeah, 2:28. 9 MR. HALBROOKS: What time did you 10 observe the incident, the events in that e-mail? 11 MS. KAUFMANN: You know, I do remember 12 on this night that I got up to -- I had been awake 13 for awhile, and once I wake up and I start 14 thinking about work and I can't go back to sleep, 15 so it wasn't exactly 2:28. I had gone to go send 16 the e-mail, and then I opened my e-mail, and I had 17 something related to work, is my recollection, so 18 I started to respond to that, and then I didn't 19 actually send this until this -- so I didn't send 20 this right away; I think maybe it was -- so I 21 don't know, I think it was 1:30 maybe when the 22 problems occurred. 23 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. So 1:30. 24 MS. KAUFMANN: Maybe. 25 MR. HALBROOKS: And this was not one of 57 1 the nights where you went out and asked the 2 people, correct? 3 MS. KAUFMANN: I do not think so. I 4 don't exactly recall, but I don't think so. 5 MR. HALBROOKS: So in this instance, you 6 don't -- what you're referring to in this, in this 7 May 22nd, you don't have any proof to offer this 8 Committee that any of this activity relates to 9 Texture at all? 10 MS. KAUFMANN: I believe it did relate 11 to Texture. 12 MR. HALBROOKS: I know what you believe. 13 I'm asking, do you have any proof to offer this 14 Committee, under oath, that any of these, any of 15 the activities you described occurred at Texture? 16 MS. KAUFMANN: And by proof, you mean, 17 did I directly hear it from somebody or see them 18 leave the front door? No, I don't have those. 19 MR. HALBROOKS: On March 27th, you 20 testify, your e-mail refers to 2:15 to 3:45, 21 correct? 22 MS. KAUFMANN: That's what it says. 23 MR. HALBROOKS: And that's the time -- 24 that's the e-mail where you wrote down where you 25 said you can't, you couldn't go that night because 58 1 you couldn't leave your son. So on March 27th, 2 you definitely did not go, right? 3 MS. KAUFMANN: Correct. 4 MR. HALBROOKS: So, and your -- the 5 worst of it was from 2:15 to 3:45. So this is 6 long after what you even consider bar time? 7 MS. KAUFMANN: What did I say? Didn't I 8 say 12 to 2:30 -- sorry, maybe, but, you know, a 9 lot of things happen when the bar closes. Not a 10 lot of times, but sometimes after bar time, people 11 congregate. Generally, though, there seems to be 12 an effort to move people when the bar closes, by 13 Texture, to get them moving. Generally, when they 14 congregate later, it's those that have parked over 15 here more along the field. 16 MR. HALBROOKS: So Texture moves the 17 people along, but the people that are parked along 18 the field, you don't have any idea whether they 19 came from Texture, correct? 20 MS. KAUFMANN: Oftentimes, I can't 21 directly prove it, right. 22 MR. HALBROOKS: I'm talking about this 23 March 27th e-mail where you -- 24 MS. KAUFMANN: I couldn't have, right, 25 because I didn't leave my home, right. 59 1 MR. HALBROOKS: So that one, you have no 2 direct proof on, all right. 3 So then now there was another March 27th 4 one, which seems to be the same e-mail. 5 You asked two questions, Mr. Chair, and 6 I thought I only found one additional e-mail. 7 So March -- so there is March 27th, and 8 there was the letter where you resigned over your 9 integrity. And then there is -- 10 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair, she didn't 11 admit to that; that's been his allegation. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yeah. 13 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And her testimony 14 clearly directly contradicts his allegation. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I will make sure that 16 commentary was stricken. 17 MR. HALBROOKS: I'm sorry, in the letter 18 it says, "Over my integrity," that's what I was 19 referring to. I'll deal with what actually 20 happened later. 21 All right. July 26th, so the only -- so 22 now what do you remember about July 26th? "I 23 understand there is a court injunction. We've 24 worked hard. I feel like a pawn." There is no 25 activity -- am I missing -- let's see, "I wanted 60 1 to advise -- I was awakened last night at 1:36 2 a.m. and kept awake for 30 minutes; loud noise, 3 screaming, car driving and horns and general 4 mayhem." 5 Pretty sure of the definition. 6 So did you go out that night and talk to 7 anybody this last July 26th? 8 MS. KAUFMANN: I can't remember. 9 MR. HALBROOKS: So as we've gone through 10 these e-mails, there isn't a single e-mail where 11 you've identified any direct evidence for any of 12 these remembering or any proof that any of these 13 e-mails had anything to do with Texture, correct? 14 MS. KAUFMANN: I'm confused. 15 MR. HALBROOKS: Nothing further. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I do have a follow-up 17 question. Ms. Kaufmann, when you sent these 18 e-mails, were these the only occasions that you 19 have recollection of experiencing problems? 20 MS. KAUFMANN: No, I would say they 21 represent the minority of experience. I generally 22 have stopped sending e-mails. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So you don't send an 24 e-mail every occasion -- 25 MS. KAUFMANN: No. 61 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- that you experience 2 problems -- 3 MS. KAUFMANN: No. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- that you may, that 5 you believe may be attributed to the club? 6 MS. KAUFMANN: No, sometimes I'm not 7 sure where it's attributed to, so I don't do 8 anything. Sometimes I'm sure where it's 9 attributed to and I don't do anything because I 10 feel it's futile. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And I guess, at this 12 point, you don't -- you can't say one way or 13 another that on the two occasions where you 14 testified that you walked to corroborate and look 15 and get a better view of the club that you sent an 16 e-mail one way or another? 17 MS. KAUFMANN: Correct, I can't testify 18 under oath, I did that. I can't testify under 19 oath whether or not that is reflected in those 20 specific e-mails or not, because I don't send one 21 every time. And even -- maybe they are from those 22 dates and I just didn't send one. I don't know. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. But your 24 recollection was, again, that you personally went 25 out approximately two times in the last year? 62 1 MS. KAUFMANN: It's big a pain in the 2 butt to do, so I know I did it twice. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: When you did that, did 4 you walk all of the way to that corner where this 5 is located, or how far did you venture from home? 6 MS. KAUFMANN: I do. Usually fighting 7 with my husband the whole way because he doesn't 8 want me to do it. Yeah, I have to go all of the 9 way to 5th, turn the corner so that I can 10 physically see the door, and then I watch the 11 patrons leave and follow them to their cars. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So you're typically 13 there around the time where -- 14 MS. KAUFMANN: And then I see what 15 happens. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are you typically around 17 there when it's closing time, where there is a 18 larger mass that's leaving the establishment 19 there, or the establishment of -- 20 MS. KAUFMANN: The two nights that I 21 recall in the past year, there was -- I was 22 awakened, so there was a large amount of activity 23 pretty early. And usually, by the time I get over 24 there, it's already kind of mitigating a little 25 bit. I would say there was, the two times I went, 63 1 there were probably 20 people. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: How are you 3 distinguishing that given that there are a number 4 of clubs east of you and this being west of you, 5 that what you're following is the area that are 6 individuals from Texture versus some other 7 establishment? 8 MS. KAUFMANN: On those occasions when I 9 walked there? 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yeah. 11 MS. KAUFMANN: Well, it's self-evident: 12 They're right at Texture. I mean, this is like -- 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So you're indicating 14 that you are out on that corner, and you are 15 actually following people as they walk out to 16 their vehicles on those occasions? 17 MS. KAUFMANN: It's totally 18 embarrassing, yeah. Right here. I don't go over 19 here because I feel totally embarrassed and weird. 20 I usually go right here. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So you're there on the 22 corner and not just -- 23 MS. KAUFMANN: Yeah. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- you're on the corner, 25 but in a visual sight of the door? 64 1 MS. KAUFMANN: Yeah. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. And that you've 3 indicated what you've done on two occasions? 4 MS. KAUFMANN: In the past year. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Approximately in the 6 past year. Is that what gives you the belief of 7 where persons generally are parking? I mean, 8 while I think the counsel here has indicated that 9 there is no certainty as to a specific car, 10 vehicle, is that just sort of what's giving you a 11 general belief of where you've noticed customers 12 from this place parking? 13 MS. KAUFMANN: Yes. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. All right. Other 15 questions by Committee? 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 17 Quick question for Attorney Halbrooks. 18 Earlier you interrupted Ms. Kaufmann's direct 19 testimony with your own direct testimony. I just 20 want to be clear. Are you saying that you never 21 talked to her in the hallway; that your hallway 22 conversation, you don't remember it the way she 23 remembered it? 24 MR. HALBROOKS: The conversation did 25 occur. It occurred with the owner of Pedrano's. 65 1 It had nothing to do with the hearing. And I have 2 never spoken to Julie Kaufmann. If she -- 3 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Other than then? Other 4 than at that point? 5 MR. HALBROOKS: No, no, I talked to the 6 guy; he was here. And I mentioned it on the way 7 out. I was -- but I have no reason to talk to 8 Julie Kaufmann. I never did. And this idea that 9 she -- that these windows being -- she put this on 10 the Internet, and an individual that was a 11 constituent of yours until just a minute ago 12 passed it around. And I called him up, and he 13 called Julie Kaufmann up, and she had to say she 14 had no idea who did it or whether it had any 15 connection to this. So, you know, it ended the 16 friendship, but it was -- 17 ALDERMAN KOVAC: You had a hallway 18 conversation that she may have overheard with 19 someone else, is that what you're saying? 20 MR. HALBROOKS: Oh, yeah. That had 21 nothing to -- no, no, the end didn't happen. 22 There was nothing about him being shut down. I 23 didn't have any concern about that. I just wanted 24 him to know that his food was that bad, that I got 25 that sick and had to go to the hospital. 66 1 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Okay. 2 MR. HALBROOKS: But it didn't -- I 3 wouldn't threaten anybody. That didn't happen. 4 That's a made-up story, but -- 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Well, no, interpreting 6 it as a threat, you're alleging is made up, but 7 the story itself is not made up; the story itself 8 is true, you just object to how she interpreted 9 it. 10 MR. HALBROOKS: No. 11 ALDERMAN KOVAC: That's what I heard in 12 your testimony just now. 13 MR. HALBROOKS: No, what she said about 14 that I would close him down, or close down, that 15 did not happen. 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Okay, but up until that 17 point, what she said was roughly accurate in your 18 memory? 19 MR. HALBROOKS: Yeah. 20 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Thank you. Thank you. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions of this 22 witness by Committee? Okay. 23 Ms. Kaufmann, thank you. 24 MR. HALBROOKS: Oh, I'm sorry, did I get 25 any follow-ups from that? 67 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Follow-ups to what? 2 MR. HALBROOKS: From your questions. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If you have them, 4 please, go head. Mr. Halbrooks, do you have 5 additional follow-ups? 6 MR. HALBROOKS: No. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 8 MR. HALBROOKS: I did, but -- 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You don't have any 10 additional follow-ups for her? 11 MR. HALBROOKS: Not at this time. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, I'm going to 13 afford you that opportunity, I don't know if she 14 will stick around. 15 MR. HALBROOKS: That's fine. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Thank you, 17 Ms. Kaufmann. 18 Were there any individuals in addition 19 that were here in opposition to the license, any 20 additional testimony? 21 Sergeant MacGillis, you were here to 22 provide additional testimony here? 23 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Yes, Alderman, I 24 was actually under subpoena by Maistelman & 25 Associates. However, I have some other 68 1 information. I'm also here for questions of 2 the facts. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If you could provide us 4 with your name and your position within the police 5 department, please? 6 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Yes, sir. 7 Lieutenant James MacGillis, and I work at District 8 No. 2 on the early shift, responsible for early 9 shift and late power officers. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Was there 11 anything that you were going to proactively offer 12 to the Committee, or was it just merely in 13 response to anything that may be raised in 14 question of the -- 15 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Yes, Alderman. I 16 have two items that I'd like to just throw out 17 there as information. I did have a meeting with a 18 number of tavern owners from the Walker's Point 19 area, five in specific; four that attended the 20 meeting. There was a letter sent by certified 21 mail requesting that we meet together and 22 establish more open lines of communication. Part 23 of the intent there was to meet the tavern owners 24 or representatives. The representatives from 25 Texture were there, and we discussed some options 69 1 from the police department's viewpoint on where we 2 are working on public safety and them trying to 3 run a business and be good neighbors amongst the 4 community. From that meeting, we have seen a 5 decline in calls for service since that time; 6 however, we have been tracking -- and we based the 7 five taverns that we invited to the meeting or to 8 have attend the meeting based off of calls for 9 service over the last year, and Texture was one of 10 those establishments. 11 Since we started tracking both police 12 officer and supervisor hours specifically, and if 13 there was any ambiguity or question as far as 14 whether a squad was sent to a different tavern or 15 Texture, since March 10th, we've got $3,520.00 of 16 police or law enforcement hours dedicated 17 specifically just to Texture for calls for 18 service, whether that be fights or self-initiated 19 activity where they recognize there are large 20 crowds with traffic concerns. 21 MR. HALBROOKS: I object, none of this 22 is in the record. None of this -- we didn't get 23 any notice. 24 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Halbrooks. 25 MR. HALBROOKS: I'm sorry. 70 1 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Can I hear from the 2 city attorney? What do you think about that 3 objection? 4 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: If I can have a 5 moment to look at that? 6 MR. HALBROOKS: Can I add one additional 7 fact, Madam Chair? 8 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Yes. 9 MR. HALBROOKS: If I may, that is 10 actually on appeal right now. So that's -- there 11 are a number of instances which Texture is taking 12 to administrative review. And so that is, I think 13 that doubly makes it problematic, that there's -- 14 there is not going to be -- we have a due process 15 that's occurring, number one. And number two, it 16 is not in the notice anywhere. There is only one 17 CAD report listed in the notice, and we were not 18 provided that pursuant to our public records 19 request. We'll get to that. 20 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 21 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: This is just 22 information that I have collected to date. I have 23 seen a decline in calls for -- 24 MR. HALBROOKS: I object. 25 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Excuse me, Mr. 71 1 Halbrooks. 2 MR. HALBROOKS: I'm talking to the 3 Chair. 4 Madam Chair, I have an objection. 5 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Your objection, the 6 city attorney is looking at it, so we'll decide 7 whether or not, what we'll do about your 8 objection. 9 In the meantime, aside from those 10 hours -- 11 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Yes, ma'am. 12 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: -- is there anything 13 else that you, that the money, the $3,000 for the 14 calls for service, is there anything else that you 15 had to say? 16 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Yes, Alderwoman. 17 I, again, was going to add that I have seen a 18 decreased call for service in the Walker's Point 19 area, and also to Texture. 20 I was personally on scene at an incident 21 that occurred on the street, I believe it was the 22 March 6th incident, where the 40 to 50 people were 23 fighting, and it is noted on the PA-33. And if 24 there are any questions regarding what I've 25 visibly observed out there, it was a large fight 72 1 that stemmed from Texture. And -- 2 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: How do you know it 3 stemmed from Texture? 4 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Well, originally, 5 there was an officer on scene. I was with a 6 different officer at the time, and it came over 7 the air that there was a fight in progress. Upon 8 my arrival, it was immediately out in front of 9 Texture. There were a number of smaller 10 skirmishes. It varied in timeframe, 11 perceptionwise: it could have been up to 20 12 minutes; it could have been five minutes. But it 13 was a large number of skirmishes that were 14 breaking. Security was assisting trying to help, 15 from Texture itself, to quell the disturbance in 16 the street. It got to the point where the street 17 had to be cut down, or shut down, for normal 18 traffic flow. 19 And I'm only giving this information as 20 evidence; not for or against Texture; I'm just 21 providing that as information. 22 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Stephens, did you 23 have something for us now? 24 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: I don't believe at 25 this point there would be adequate notice to talk 73 1 about specific man hours, and, frankly, the cost, 2 if there is an objection by the licensee because 3 of the lack of notice. So I think -- but I do 4 think that the lieutenant's comments about, 5 general comments, about law enforcement operations 6 having to do with this neighborhood and the 7 various taverns would be appropriate. 8 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Do we need to strike 9 the specific information about the dollar amount 10 associated with those man hours from the record? 11 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: I would -- I think 12 they probably should not be relied upon, and I 13 think striking them might be the easiest way to 14 remove them. 15 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: We'll strike the 16 dollar amount associated with the man hours from 17 being affiliated with Texture from the record. 18 Are there any questions from Committee 19 of Lieutenant MacGillis? 20 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Madam Chair. 21 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Alderman Kovac. 22 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So you had direct 23 experience on March 6th, you personally. Were 24 there any of the other PA-33s where you had direct 25 experience viewing? 74 1 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Where I was on 2 scene? 3 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Yeah. 4 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: No, sir. 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Okay. 6 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Any other questions 7 from Committee? 8 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Madam Chair, could 9 I make a comment, ask a question? 10 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Alderman Witkowiak. 11 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Are these PA-33s 12 part of the permanent record now in this hearing? 13 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Yeah. 14 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay, could we get 15 the lieutenant to -- he was personally on the 16 scene in one of these, could we get him to 17 authenticate these other ones in some way, shape 18 or form? I just want to make sure that they are 19 on the record. 20 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Madam Chair, the 21 PA-33s themselves, it is my understanding, were 22 provided to the licensee prior to this hearing and 23 they are part of the record. If the Committee so 24 wishes -- because they are of public record 25 written by the police department in the ordinary 75 1 course of their duties in documenting their 2 factual findings in investigations. So they are 3 reliable by themselves, and don't need to be 4 authenticated by a police officer. 5 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay, now, my next 6 question, does each one of these PA-33s correspond 7 to a line item in the police report? Can anyone 8 answer that for me? 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't know what you 10 mean by "line item in the police report." 11 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Well, there are the 12 incidents that's listed. 13 SERGEANT RADEN: Are you talking about 14 the synopsis? 15 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Yes. 16 SERGEANT RADEN: Yes. 17 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay, that's before 18 these, the synopsis, the line items you refer to 19 as the synopsis are a synopsis of these PA-33s? 20 SERGEANT RADEN: That's correct. 21 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. I just 22 wanted to make sure the proper record is 23 established. Thank you. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 25 Anything else that you wish to add, 76 1 Lieutenant MacGillis? 2 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: No, sir. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 4 At this time, was there anyone else from 5 the police department that was going to provide 6 testimony other than -- 7 Did you have cross examination of this 8 witness here that you wish to provide at this 9 time, Mr. Halbrooks? 10 MR. HALBROOKS: Well, I -- if it -- does 11 it count into my time? Because I did subpoena 12 him, so it's up to you. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yeah. If you subpoenaed 14 him, yes, it would be counted toward your time. 15 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Well, then I 16 can just wait until my part. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, that's fine. Was 18 there anything else, was there anyone else that 19 wished to provide additional testimony? 20 I understand that you were here just 21 providing information, but I'm going to ask again, 22 for the record, anyone else in opposition? 23 All right. At this point here, we'll 24 provide you an opportunity to address issues in 25 the police report. I will ask if there was 77 1 anything in particular you wish to object to or 2 dispute within the police report that's been 3 provided? 4 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay. So we're not on 5 the clock. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Correct. 7 MR. HALBROOKS: So okay, if I could just 8 ask a question. So the objectors are done? 9 Because one of the difficulties I have is at the 10 end, okay, Alderman, do you have any comments, and 11 he brings up new stuff that I don't have a chance 12 to question. So I guess what I would ask is that 13 he -- 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The alderman can provide 15 commentary, but the commentary is a synopsis. It 16 is not to be regarded as evidence because it is 17 not cross examined. 18 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay, great. Well, 19 that's fine, but if it's anything new at that 20 point -- 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: It should not be 22 considered anything other than a summary closing. 23 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay, all right. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If he's personally -- 25 Alderman, are you going to present anything in 78 1 terms, Alderman Witkowiak, anything in terms of 2 you personally have witnessed that may be 3 testimony that may be considered and cross 4 examined? If there are things you personally have 5 witnessed other than -- I would ask that that 6 would go now. 7 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: No. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 9 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Thank you. 10 I have a motion that we filed 11 electronically. I have hard copies for you. 12 Mr. Lerner can assist. 13 Most of these things you've heard 14 before, and the request has been to not repeat 15 them over and over again. So what I want to -- 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If I may? I mean, is it 17 your intention -- what I would do is, I will 18 indicate that we're happy to make this part of the 19 record at this time. 20 MR. HALBROOKS: Right. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't know if you are 22 going to try to detail point by point. 23 MR. HALBROOKS: Just one thing. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. What I want to 25 state then for the record, and just so you are 79 1 aware, I assume that others received a copy of 2 this like myself. I have not had an opportunity 3 to review this in any way, shape or form. It was 4 sent, I believe, approximately 10:39, 10:40 last 5 evening; p.m., last evening. I had a 7:30 a.m. 6 meeting before this particular hearing this 7 morning. So I did note that it was sent, I was 8 able to glance at the front page, but I was unable 9 to go through the body of this. 10 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. If I may 11 then, with the Chair's discretion, I'll ask Mr. 12 Lerner to take one minute and go through the 13 points except for the one that I want to talk 14 about, and then -- 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: That's fine. And I just 16 want you to know -- first off, I'll make this part 17 of the record here. 18 We'll have Alderman Zielinski move to 19 make the motion objection that's been provided for 20 by Mr. Halbrooks on behalf of his client as part 21 of our official record in this proceeding. Are 22 there any objections to that? Hearing none, so 23 ordered. 24 Mr. Halbrooks, I don't mind you taking 25 time on this, this is now part of the official 80 1 record, but if you want to provide any additional 2 detail, I will take that time off of your 30 3 minutes. 4 MR. HALBROOKS: There are standard -- 5 there are standard motions that you have denied 6 many times regarding the notice and the provisions 7 in the notice. The notices are getting 8 incrementally better, so. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, that's fine. All 10 right, go head. 11 MR. HALBROOKS: I do want to -- 12 actually, two things: I do have a strenuous 13 objection to three things that were filed with the 14 notice; the findings from last year, and the 15 transcript from last year were -- that whole 16 operation, and not because of this Committee, but 17 that whole operation was declared illegal by the 18 circuit court. And so I object to the inclusion 19 of those matters that were stricken, you know, the 20 court threw that whole process out. And it seems 21 wrong to now include it in there. So I would move 22 that those two things be stricken. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I will concur -- 24 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I will concur with that. 81 1 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: But I'd like to 2 correct the record. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: They are not officially 4 part of the record; they were actually added to 5 the agenda. We have to make a motion and have a 6 concurrence of this body to make it part of the 7 official record. 8 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: But just so it's 9 clear for the Council, for the Committee and the 10 Council, the circuit court made the decision, not 11 throwing out the entire process, there was a 12 specific aspect of the Common Council's notice to 13 the applicant, the Common Council's ability to 14 non-renew despite of the License Committee's 15 recommendation to suspend. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Correct. 17 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: That is what is the 18 ultimate decision. As far as the transcript and 19 the previous material from last year, that would 20 not be -- 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Applicable to this 22 hearing, which is only considering evidence in the 23 last license year. 24 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Correct. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So I will concur with 82 1 you on those items not being admissible here. 2 MR. HALBROOKS: All that time while he 3 was talking -- 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: That's fine. I'll let 5 you proceed forward here without hitting the 6 clock. 7 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay, that was well over 8 a minute. 9 And then the third thing is that there 10 were flyers that we proved pretty convincingly 11 last year were taken from the club, and I 12 subpoenaed the originals so I could show the judge 13 at the time, and the city said, "We can't find 14 them. We can't find them. We can't find them." 15 Mr. Stephens -- I don't know, they disappeared, 16 and now they show up in the thing. So I would 17 ask, I think fairness dictates, that they be 18 stricken, since the city could not respond to a 19 subpoena for those flyers, that they be removed 20 from the file. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Unless there was some 22 other evidence presented here that somehow that 23 was ascertained or obtained in the last year and 24 could be corroborated, I concur with you. 25 MR. HALBROOKS: Thank you. 83 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: There is no evidence 2 here to suggest otherwise. 3 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Finally, I 4 would just like to direct you to -- 5 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderwoman Coggs. 7 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I mean, I just want 8 to know, like, is that true? Like, did that 9 happen? 10 MR. HALBROOKS: Ms. Grill was gone, she 11 may have taken them with her to keep. 12 MS. GRILL: I had them at home. I'm not 13 sure what we're discussing. There were some 14 original flyers that were submitted as part of the 15 record to the Committee last year, and somehow the 16 original ones were not kept. A copy of them were 17 kept and given to us at the license division, and 18 usually we keep all of the documents submitted at 19 committee. So I believe that's what you're 20 referring to. 21 MR. HALBROOKS: Yes. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I mean, I think there 23 was a packet, obviously, of materials that were 24 sent to them. Some of the materials, including 25 the transcripts, referred to the hearing last 84 1 year, which is not applicable in this year. And 2 he's just trying to ensure that anything that is 3 old evidence; not in the last license year, is not 4 included here, so. And I concur with that. 5 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay. Next on the 6 motion it's listed as "B," and then I go into it 7 farther down. There are two of the five 8 incidents, which are Items 22 and 25, which have 9 nothing to do with the club. All right. And so 10 we -- what's going on? 11 MR. LERNER: Nothing. We're talking 12 about the time. 13 MR. HALBROOKS: Oh, the club -- these 14 occurred outside, there is only, like, double 15 hearsay about whether the people were in the club, 16 and we've produced records to show that people 17 weren't there. So there was a car accident, and a 18 car a couple blocks away, and so we're going to be 19 asking for those to be dropped. And if you want 20 to wait and hear about it, but the record, there 21 is nothing in the record that ties them to the 22 club. And, for instance, the car accident 23 occurred at 12:05, and it indicated the person was 24 leaving Texture. Well, nobody leaves at 12:05; 25 they just would've gotten there at that point. So 85 1 there is -- and there are computer records which 2 indicate none of the people in those two incidents 3 were at that club. So I -- 4 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Mr. Chairman, you 5 talk about ridiculous testimony that he objects to 6 from other people. He says, "Nobody leaves the 7 club at midnight." Who is going to believe that? 8 Somebody doesn't come -- 9 MR. HALBROOKS: I'll move on. Fine. 10 There is a citation from Mr. Safino 11 that's in this record that has nothing to do with 12 this, and I would ask that that be taken out. 13 It's not -- you can't do a judgment in the last 14 year. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: What are you -- what 16 item number are you referring to? 17 MR. LERNER: It actually doesn't have a 18 number. 19 MR. HALBROOKS: It doesn't have a 20 number. 21 MR. LERNER: It doesn't have a number. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are you referring to in 23 the police report here? 24 MR. LERNER: Yes, in the police report. 25 MR. HALBROOKS: It wasn't read in. 86 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: It was not read in? 2 MR. HALBROOKS: Correct. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If it was not read in, 4 it wasn't made part of the record. It's not part 5 of the record. 6 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Anything 7 else? 8 All right. I would like to, again, do 9 my standard objection to the police report as 10 being hearsay. I will have a couple of questions 11 of the sergeant. I do want -- 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Halbrooks, I'll just 13 state for the record, at this point here, as part 14 of that objection here, I will just make a formal 15 ruling to state that your objection will be duly 16 noted; I will deny that objection for the record. 17 MR. HALBROOKS: Thank you. All right. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chair. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Zielinski. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: It's lieutenant 21 now, state it for the record. He's worked hard 22 for that. 23 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Thank you, sir. 24 MR. LERNER: He is actually talking 25 about the sergeant on the committee. 87 1 MR. HALBROOKS: No, I know there is a 2 rule that there has to be a MacGillis family 3 member here, but I know -- 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. What makes 5 you so certain that all MacGillises are related? 6 I happen to know better one way or the other, 7 because I know many members of this family here 8 for various reasons, but -- 9 MR. HALBROOKS: He keeps -- there does 10 seem to be a keeping of us all calm kind of, that 11 I have noted. 12 All right. So what I do want to start 13 out and indicate is, for the Committee, an 14 announcement, which is, this will be the last 15 request for this club to be renewed; we will not 16 be back here next year. 17 Secondly, I want to go through -- I want 18 to just ask the sergeant a couple of questions, if 19 I may, about the first item he read about 20 September 6th in terms of the synopsis. 21 Sergeant -- and I don't know if we have 22 met, I don't know your name. 23 SERGEANT RADEN: Sergeant Raden. 24 MR. HALBROOKS: Hi, Sergeant. 25 The September 6th, do you -- you didn't 88 1 write these synopses, correct? 2 SERGEANT RADEN: No, I did not. 3 MR. HALBROOKS: Officer Kokowski did? 4 SERGEANT RADEN: That's correct. 5 MR. HALBROOKS: And do you review them? 6 SERGEANT RADEN: Yes, I do. 7 MR. HALBROOKS: And when -- what do you 8 review to -- what do you use to review them? Do 9 you read the -- 10 SERGEANT RADEN: I read them over. And 11 I read them over, I look at the actual PA-33s. 12 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay, all right. So I 13 don't get -- so I've got the PA-33 on this night, 14 and I've got the synopsis, and it starts out 15 indicating that, "1:58 a.m., Milwaukee police 16 observed a large crowd gathering in the street in 17 front of Texture." And it says, "Officers were 18 flagging down police to report subjects attempting 19 to fight." And then it says, "Officers called for 20 more squads to the scene." And then later on, it 21 talks about that the fight was actually inside. 22 Did you check out the chronology of that synopsis 23 when you reviewed it? 24 SERGEANT RADEN: Okay, regarding this 25 synopsis -- 89 1 MR. HALBROOKS: Yes. 2 SERGEANT RADEN: -- these were written 3 before I was assigned to this unit. These were 4 written when Sergeant MacGillis was there. 5 MR. HALBROOKS: Oh. 6 SERGEANT RADEN: So I wouldn't have 7 reviewed these at that time. 8 MR. HALBROOKS: Did you review any of 9 these? 10 SERGEANT RADEN: That were written? 11 MR. HALBROOKS: Yeah. 12 SERGEANT RADEN: When this was written, 13 this was written on -- at the time, I was not 14 assigned to the unit, I do not believe. 15 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay. All right. So 16 you have no explanation for me about what happened 17 here, right? All right, then I don't think we'll 18 ask any more questions of the sergeant. 19 I would indicate for the record, 20 Mr. Chair, that we made a public records request 21 to the Milwaukee Police Department of the CADs, 22 and of everything essentially. And what we got 23 were the PA-33s that were already provided, and we 24 got one incident report, all right. One incident 25 report from March 6th, not by any of the officers 90 1 here. So we were not provided an incident report 2 for Item 21 or 22, twenty -- wait, which one is 3 March 6th? 4 MR. LERNER: 23. 5 MR. HALBROOKS: Yeah. 6 23, we got the incident report, and 7 nothing for 24. So they were unable to find any 8 of these police reports, which would have provided 9 a basis to write these, unless there was none. 10 The first one indicates that there was a 11 CAD. In the PA-33, if you look, CAD 102490191, 12 and we were not provided any of, that CAD either. 13 And that appears to be the only backup for this 14 September 6th incident, for which it seems like 15 nobody is here who can testify. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Halbrooks, is this 17 part of a separate open records request that you 18 submitted, or are you indicating as part of the 19 renewal hearing, you were not adequately mailed 20 the corresponding PA-33s to the summaries? 21 MR. HALBROOKS: The first. We asked for 22 the public records. And last time you told me to 23 go to court. We did, and you know what happened. 24 So the materials appeared, and we're still 25 litigating over that. They appeared once we filed 91 1 the court case. So we were not provided any of 2 these police reports for the incidents except for 3 the one on March 6th. So I just wanted to put 4 that on the record. Just so you know. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. 6 MR. HALBROOKS: Because I'll be asking 7 at some point to not consider on these because 8 they didn't provide the data. And since nobody is 9 here -- we didn't know anybody would not be here 10 from the 6th, so. 11 All right. What I would like to do is 12 just ask Lieutenant MacGillis a couple of 13 questions. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 15 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Lieutenant, 16 when did you arrive at the 2nd District? 17 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: It was February 18 of 2011, sir. 19 MR. HALBROOKS: And where were you 20 before that? 21 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: I was assigned to 22 District No. 5 on the early shift, at 4th and 23 Locust. 24 MR. HALBROOKS: And you have done a 25 couple of fairly significant projects previous to 92 1 being assigned to this district? 2 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Yes. 3 MR. HALBROOKS: And that was RiverSplash 4 and Juneteenth Day? 5 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Yes. 6 MR. HALBROOKS: And because we're on 7 this public forum, I'd like to ask you the results 8 of those events after you took over the special 9 projects? 10 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: I'm not 11 understanding your question, Counselor. 12 MR. HALBROOKS: What happened? There 13 were concerns about Juneteenth and RiverSplash 14 before you took over, correct? 15 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Yes, generally. 16 I'm not understanding what, which concerns you're 17 speaking of, sir. 18 MR. HALBROOKS: Why were you brought in? 19 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: I'm not sure, 20 sir, other than I was assigned by the command 21 staff. 22 MR. HALBROOKS: And what were the 23 results after you worked on Juneteenth Day and 24 RiverSplash according to the department's 25 enforcement records? 93 1 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: There was a 2 reduction in overtime; there was a reduction in 3 police resources utilized to ensure public safety; 4 and there was a better outreach by, in my opinion, 5 by the police department in the community for a 6 better partnership. 7 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. And we all, 8 I'm sure, thank you for that. 9 Let me ask you this. This is kind of 10 the reason you were brought into the Walker's 11 Point area, correct, your success in other areas? 12 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: That I don't 13 know, sir. I was assigned to District 2 through 14 the command staff. 15 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. And then you 16 sent out these certified letters to the five clubs 17 you described and held a meeting on April 4th. 18 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Yes, sir. 19 MR. HALBROOKS: What has been your -- 20 what is your reaction -- you testified a little 21 bit earlier that things have been better, but 22 since that meeting, since that "New World Order" 23 of that meeting, what has been the relationship 24 between the clubs and the police, and what has 25 specifically occurred? 94 1 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Well, we 2 entertain phone conversations. We had meetings in 3 person with other tavern owners also, including 4 Mr. Salvo. We have better communication, better 5 networking. I personally toured Texture itself, 6 observed the video surveillance system, did a 7 facility check, we discussed public safety 8 concerns for fire and evacuation. 9 MR. HALBROOKS: And nobody from the 10 police department directed you to object here 11 today? 12 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: No, sir. 13 MR. HALBROOKS: And you're not objecting 14 either? 15 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: No, sir. I'm 16 just here to provide information, sir. 17 MR. HALBROOKS: Thank you. And so 18 generally, I noticed there were no PA-33s since 19 your meeting. 20 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: One second, 21 please. 22 MR. HALBROOKS: Since April 4th. 23 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Since April 4th, 24 yes, sir, there have been. I've got to look. 25 There was -- since April 4th; there was one that 95 1 happened two days prior to that, correct, sir. 2 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. 3 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: And one thing I 4 want to clarify too, in this summary, the one from 5 April 2nd, that was filed by Officer Palmer, and 6 the facts of that are a little different; he works 7 at District No. 5. He did not come in to report 8 it at District No. 2. Just a small detail. 9 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay. Well, we'll get 10 to the other details. All right. 11 So your reaction since the meeting with 12 Texture has been generally positive in terms of 13 them working with you and you working with them? 14 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Yes, as given to 15 me and passed up through my chain of command from 16 my officers, there has been a more positive 17 relationship. The officers relate to me 18 specifically that security has been very helpful 19 with clearing out the crowd according to our needs 20 of public safety. That includes dismissal time, 21 assisting with traffic flow concerns, which are 22 precipitating factors leading to fights breaking 23 out in the street. 24 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay. I want to ask you 25 about the PA-33 for -- where's the date? Oh, for 96 1 March 28th. I believe that would be Item 24. 2 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Which one? 3 MR. HALBROOKS: March 28th. Is that 4 Item 24? I know that Officer Agnew is here, we'll 5 get to him in a minute, but have you had a chance 6 to review this particular item? 7 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: I did review it, 8 yes, sir. 9 MR. HALBROOKS: And Sergeant O'Donnell 10 hasn't been around that area since that April 4th 11 meeting, correct? 12 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Sergeant 13 O'Donnell does sometimes, based off of staffing, 14 go up to the Walker's Point area to manage and 15 supervise police personnel on the street. 16 MR. HALBROOKS: But not like he was 17 before you got here? 18 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: No, he's got a 19 different assignment focusing more on crime and 20 robberies. 21 MR. HALBROOKS: And you were here the 22 last hearing for Envy where we showed all of the 23 video of his activities, correct? 24 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: I was here for 25 Envy's licensing hearing, yes, sir. 97 1 MR. HALBROOKS: This seems to be an 2 incident where the club asked for help. And so 3 what's the problem here really? Should the club 4 have not asked for help? Should they -- is the 5 fact that there are people that they want to clear 6 the sidewalk, why should this be held against the 7 club? 8 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: Sir, I'm reading 9 the report, and it's just information based off of 10 the officer's perception that there was a large 11 crowd outside, that officers were there, they were 12 at capacity, caused a congregation out front, and 13 the officers dispersed the crowd. It's just a 14 notation of officers' observation of facts that 15 occurred that evening. 16 MR. HALBROOKS: And there's no police 17 report for this though. 18 LIEUTENANT MACGILLIS: There wouldn't 19 be, other than a CAD record, and then the PA-33 20 that documents what transpired that evening. 21 MR. HALBROOKS: All right, okay. I have 22 nothing further. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 24 MR. HALBROOKS: They can maybe both come 25 in. 98 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Does this pertain to 2 another officer that you subpoenaed? 3 MR. HALBROOKS: Yeah. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Thank you. 5 If we could have -- who are you calling 6 forward? Did you subpoena two individuals, or -- 7 I thought there were two that I actually had 8 signed. 9 MR. LERNER: Just two. 10 MR. HALBROOKS: Yeah, they're both here, 11 so we'll call them both. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If one of you could come 13 and take the standing microphone; the other one a 14 seat. We'll ask that you proceed in an orderly 15 fashion between the two here. 16 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You have been sworn in, 18 Officer? 19 OFFICER AGNEW: I have. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If you could provide us 21 your name and your position with the Department, 22 please? 23 OFFICER AGNEW: Christopher Agnew, and 24 I'm a police officer currently assigned to 25 District 2 Tavern Car. 99 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Please make 2 certain you use the microphone. 3 OFFICER AGNEW: Yes sir. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 5 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Officer, you 6 are -- you were at the scene of Texture on the 7 March 6th incident that your lieutenant described 8 earlier? 9 OFFICER AGNEW: I was. 10 MR. HALBROOKS: And your partner is who? 11 OFFICER AGNEW: Officer Ramirez Savantaz 12 (phonetic). 13 MR. HALBROOKS: And you were not 14 together at that particular moment, at 1:58 a.m., 15 when the call first started, correct? 16 OFFICER AGNEW: That is correct. 17 MR. HALBROOKS: Where were you? 18 OFFICER AGNEW: I was with the 19 lieutenant at 5th and Pierce, I believe, watching 20 traffic. 21 MR. HALBROOKS: So you were further 22 south? 23 OFFICER AGNEW: I was, just one block 24 south. 25 MR. HALBROOKS: And when -- so you wrote 100 1 the PA-33 that your partner, Officer Ramirez 2 Savantaz, called for squads, and then you showed 3 up and said you observed the fight. 4 OFFICER AGNEW: I did. 5 MR. HALBROOKS: And I know -- we were 6 trying to have this discussion before, there's a 7 suggestion that it went for 20 minutes. Under 8 oath, you don't really know exactly how long it 9 went, do you? 10 OFFICER AGNEW: I do not know how long 11 it went, but looking at the CAD information -- 12 MR. HALBROOKS: What CAD information? 13 OFFICER AGNEW: Whenever we go out with 14 an assignment, there is a CAD that is -- 15 MR. HALBROOKS: I understand that. Do 16 you have a CAD for this incident? 17 OFFICER AGNEW: I do not. 18 MR. HALBROOKS: So did you look at a CAD 19 for this before your testimony? 20 OFFICER AGNEW: I did not. 21 MR. HALBROOKS: So what I'm asking is, 22 how long did this occur? How long did this 23 incident take? 24 OFFICER AGNEW: I don't know. 25 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. So the 101 1 suggestion that it took 20 minutes is not -- it 2 wouldn't be correct, or you wouldn't be able to 3 testify to that? 4 OFFICER AGNEW: That's correct. 5 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. It seems to 6 me that the squads showed up, and there were some 7 people arrested, and then there were some other 8 people down father to the north; however, a lot of 9 the people were just customers leaving the club 10 that night. It wasn't people participating in the 11 fight, there were just a couple of people 12 fighting, right? 13 OFFICER AGNEW: There was active fights 14 going on, yes, sir. 15 MR. HALBROOKS: How many people were 16 fighting? 17 OFFICER AGNEW: I'm not able to count. 18 I would say anywhere from 10 to 15 people. 19 MR. HALBROOKS: 10 to 15 fighting. And 20 how many people were in the crowd? 21 OFFICER AGNEW: I can't -- I didn't 22 actually count them. 23 MR. HALBROOKS: So when you wrote in the 24 report -- oh, it says Officer Savantaz did 40 to 25 50. All right. So on the night that I just asked 102 1 the lieutenant about regarding March 14th, that 2 was not your decision to write the PA-33 on that 3 one, was it? 4 OFFICER AGNEW: It was not. 5 MR. HALBROOKS: There wasn't even really 6 much of a problem; they were just asking for help, 7 right? 8 OFFICER AGNEW: I believe so. 9 MR. HALBROOKS: So when you wrote the 10 description there, that you were told to write 11 this, I mean, in the past, you've just written 12 them? 13 OFFICER AGNEW: Yes. 14 MR. HALBROOKS: So this was -- is that 15 kind of code for something? 16 OFFICER AGNEW: I'm sorry? 17 MR. HALBROOKS: Is that kind of code for 18 something when you wrote that? 19 OFFICER AGNEW: I don't know what code 20 you're talking about. 21 MR. HALBROOKS: That Sergeant O'Donnell 22 told you to write it? 23 OFFICER AGNEW: I'm assigned to the 24 tavern car. Anything that happens at the clubs, 25 I'm supposed to investigate that. I was advised 103 1 of the situation by my sergeant, and he advised me 2 to write the tavern report. 3 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay. But there wasn't 4 any real -- there wasn't any law violation or 5 anything related to the tavern at all, it was just 6 them trying to move the people off of the street. 7 OFFICER AGNEW: I was not there, but, 8 yes, two people, two subjects were arrested for 9 loitering, I know that, but -- 10 MR. HALBROOKS: Well, wait, so you wrote 11 this, this is all secondhand? 12 OFFICER AGNEW: That's correct. I got 13 the information from Officer McGrath who gave me a 14 copy of the citations. 15 MR. HALBROOKS: Wait, you didn't put any 16 of that in the PA-33? 17 ALDERMAN KOVAC: I think you are talking 18 about two different ones: he's talking about 24; 19 you're talking about 23. 20 MR. HALBROOKS: I'm talking about -- 21 we're talking about 24, right? 22 ALDERMAN KOVAC: It's in there. It's 23 the last sentence, "Loitering was issued to two 24 subjects." 25 OFFICER AGNEW: And it says right here 104 1 that PO McGrath went over the police radio. 2 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay. 3 OFFICER AGNEW: The information I got 4 from Sergeant O'Donnell is from Officer McGrath 5 who gave me the information. 6 MR. HALBROOKS: So none of that is first 7 person? 8 OFFICER AGNEW: It is not. 9 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay. All right. And 10 you don't have anything to testify about regarding 11 the other incidents? 12 OFFICER AGNEW: Other than just that 13 other PA-33 that I wrote, no, sir. 14 MR. HALBROOKS: Which one are you 15 referring to, the fight? 16 OFFICER AGNEW: The one we just talked 17 about that Sergeant MacGillis referred to. 18 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Thank you. 19 Okay, all right. I have a person here, 20 I'd like him to just -- if I could have him 21 just -- he is on a time limit. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Were there -- one 23 second. Were there any questions of Committee of 24 this officer? 25 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Mr. Chairman, could 105 1 I ask him a question, please? 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sure. 3 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: The incident 4 referred to on 3/6/11. 5 OFFICER AGNEW: Okay. 6 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Is there any doubt 7 in your mind at all that that was patrons or part 8 of the fight started with patrons from Texture? 9 OFFICER AGNEW: No doubt that's where 10 the fighting came from. 11 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. Thank you. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Officer. 13 Mr. Halbrooks. 14 MR. HALBROOKS: I have a person that 15 just has a window of time, so I'd like to just 16 have him make his public statement. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sure. 18 Sir, you've been previously sworn in. 19 FATHER SHIELDS: No. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Do you want to swear him 21 in? 22 Raise your right hand, please. 23 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 24 the pains of penalties of perjury in the State of 25 Wisconsin that the testimony you are about to give 106 1 is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 2 truth? 3 FATHER SHIELDS: I do. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Just when I said no more 5 witnesses to be sworn in here, we'll try to 6 accommodate. 7 SPEAKER: He wrote that. 8 FATHER SHIELDS: I wrote the letter. My 9 name is Father David Shields. I run Casa Romero 10 Renewal Center. It's a next-door neighbor to 11 Texture Nightclub. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Father, and 13 your testimony. 14 Mr. Halbrooks, you were wising to -- 15 MR. HALBROOKS: No, he's just got a 16 statement. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead, Father. 18 FATHER SHIELDS: Okay. I'm legally 19 blind. So I did write this, but I would just as 20 soon not try to read it, but just tell you what's 21 in this message. Basically, I'm -- while I'm the 22 executive director of Casa Romero, we're a 23 next-door neighbor to Texture. We have -- we were 24 there before Texture Nightclub came. It is our 25 understanding as a neighbor that Texture Nightclub 107 1 has done nothing, to my knowledge, that has -- 2 makes my work any more dangerous or any more 3 difficult. 4 We are in a commercial zone; therefore, 5 a lot of people gather for various kinds of 6 things: for restaurants, for going nightclubing 7 and other kinds of things. 8 When the nightclub began, it was Donato 9 or Sal, one of those or both of them came and 10 visited, explaining what they were going to do. 11 They wanted to make sure that we were open to the 12 possibility of it being there. And so they were 13 very open in terms of those kinds of things. 14 A couple of years ago, two, three years 15 ago, there were some issues concerning the 16 nightclubs on 5th Street. Again, it was the 17 people from Texture that called a meeting, kind of 18 a street meeting. A number of people came to that 19 meeting to talk about what was going on, what's 20 real and what isn't real. 21 So as a neighbor, I would just have to 22 say that the security that they provide on the 23 streets makes my job easier in terms of my own 24 people being around in the evenings. I do not 25 find any violence or any destruction going on. I 108 1 don't find any mess in the streets or in my 2 property that wouldn't have been there prior to 3 their coming. And so in that sense, I've always 4 found Texture Nightclub a good neighbor. Thank 5 you. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Father. 7 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Mr. Chairman. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If I may, one moment 9 here, Alderman. 10 This is the letter that you've written, 11 the June 21, 2011, letter? 12 FATHER SHIELDS: Yes. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: That you were here to 14 provide a summary for, okay. At this point then, 15 Alderman Zielinski would move to make the June 21, 16 2011, letter from Father Shields as part of our 17 official record in this proceeding, and hearing no 18 objections to that, so ordered. 19 Alderman Witkowiak. 20 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Mr. Chairman, can I 21 ask Father Shields a couple questions? 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sure. Do you want to 23 just see if there are a couple of Committee 24 questions first? Are there any questions by 25 Committee first? 109 1 Father, one brief question for you. Are 2 you, in terms of Casa Romero, I don't have 3 familiarity, as perhaps Alderman Witkowiak would 4 or even the neighborhood, are you present at that 5 location in the evening? 6 FATHER SHIELDS: Rarely. Certainly not 7 after 10:00 or 11:00. Although, on some evenings 8 when we have groups there, there are people there 9 from, that are staying overnight. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So there is no 11 rectory -- 12 FATHER SHIELDS: No. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- other things, or 14 administrative offices for that purpose? 15 FATHER SHIELDS: Not overnight, no. Not 16 after 9:00 or 10:00 on a normal basis. Although, 17 from time to time, we do have weekend groups, and 18 so they are there overnight. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So your testimony would 20 largely be to what you've experienced within the 21 timeframe either when you've been present up to 22 perhaps around 10:00, or when you've returned the 23 next day to say that there is no litter, that 24 things have been cleaned up as such? 25 FATHER SHIELDS: That would be true. 110 1 Plus, we've not had any particular complaints from 2 our visitors other than in the summertime when 3 there is music. They hear music at night, on 4 Thursday, Friday or Saturday, whenever those 5 nights are. So there's music, but that's -- 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: When you refer to those 7 visitors, are those any persons that may stay 8 overnight at the center? 9 FATHER SHIELDS: Yes, those would be 10 overnight visitors. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Otherwise, do you have 12 permanent apartments or residents there? 13 FATHER SHIELDS: No. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Just on occasion there 15 may be -- 16 FATHER SHIELDS: Yes. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Very good. Thank 18 you. 19 Alderman Witkowiak. 20 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: I just want to 21 clarify that. Father Shields, you do not live 22 there, correct? 23 FATHER SHIELDS: No. 24 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. And are you 25 ever there past 10:00 at night? 111 1 FATHER SHIELDS: Very rarely. 2 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. What would 3 "vary rarely" be? How many times a year? 4 FATHER SHIELDS: Two or three, four. 5 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. 6 FATHER SHIELDS: No more. 7 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Would that 8 necessarily be on a weekend or during the week, or 9 would it be -- 10 FATHER SHIELDS: That would more likely 11 be on a Friday or a Saturday. 12 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. That happens 13 how many times a year maybe that you are there? 14 FATHER SHIELDS: Three or four. It's 15 not often. 16 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: And you have 17 received complaints -- so how often do people stay 18 overnight there? 19 FATHER SHIELDS: I would say that we 20 have overnight, in the past, our record is 21 probably between 10 and 15 weekends a year at this 22 point. 23 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: 10 and 15 weekends 24 a year. And you have received complaints from 25 people about the noise of music? 112 1 FATHER SHIELDS: We have. People have 2 commented on it, that it has been difficult for 3 them to get to sleep on some nights, especially in 4 the summertime when there is -- when they are 5 there overnight, because of the patio. I mean, 6 it's the way it is. 7 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: The patio you're 8 referring to is -- 9 FATHER SHIELDS: Right next to our 10 patio. 11 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. Which is 12 part of Texture's premises? 13 FATHER SHIELDS: It is. 14 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. So your 15 guests have been disturbed by noise coming from 16 Texture's patio? 17 FATHER SHIELDS: They have mentioned it, 18 yes. 19 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. Thank you. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Father. 21 Mr. Halbrooks. 22 MR. HALBROOKS: If I -- I need to start 23 asking Mr. Salvo some questions. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sure. If you could use 25 the microphone. 113 1 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. We have to 2 go kind of quick. 3 Mr. Salvo, the night of September 6th, 4 September 5th going into September 6th, were you 5 at Club Texture? 6 MR. SALVO: Yes, I was. 7 MR. HALBROOKS: Do you remember that 8 night specifically? 9 MR. SALVO: I was there, I worked it. 10 MR. HALBROOKS: What time -- let me ask 11 you something, did you read the PA-33s of Officer 12 Monet? 13 MR. SALVO: Yes. 14 MR. HALBROOKS: He says he was -- in the 15 PA-33, it's individual, I know in the synopsis it 16 becomes "the police," plural; but in the PA-33, he 17 says, "At 1:58, while on the scene monitoring the 18 tavern close," what do you have to say about that? 19 MR. SALVO: I just say, let the video 20 speak for itself. 21 MR. HALBROOKS: Let me ask you this. 22 What time did you close that night? 23 MR. SALVO: We close -- 9/6, that would 24 be Wednesday or Sunday night. If it's 1:58 -- it 25 would be -- we would close at 1:30. If bar time 114 1 is 2:00, we always close a half-hour before. 2 MR. HALBROOKS: So at -- on Sunday 3 night -- 4 MR. SALVO: The music is off actually at 5 1:15. 6 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. 7 MR. SALVO: Because that is our busiest 8 night. 9 MR. HALBROOKS: All right, 1:15. At 10 1:30 -- at 1:30, you were closed. 11 MR. SALVO: Is that Saturday night? 12 Sunday night, yeah. 13 MR. HALBROOKS: Into Monday morning. 14 MR. SALVO: Music will be off at 1:15, 15 and normally it takes about, on Sundays, 20 to 25 16 minutes to have the actual street cleared. 17 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay. So at 1:58, what 18 was Officer Monet observing? 19 MR. SALVO: He observed us letting out 20 that night. And when the street cleared, he 21 would've also observed all of the security going 22 inside. And that's what I was dealing with 23 inside, we had -- 24 MR. HALBROOKS: No, I'm just asking you, 25 what was he observing at 1:58? Was there -- 115 1 MR. SALVO: At 1:58, he would be 2 observing us taking out the last customer of the 3 bar out. 4 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. So he 5 indicates there was a large crowd gathered in the 6 street at that time, is that correct? 7 MR. SALVO: That large crowd was our 8 security. 9 MR. HALBROOKS: And how many security 10 did you have on at that point? 11 MR. SALVO: That night, 14 to 16 people. 12 MR. HALBROOKS: On Sunday night, you 13 have 16? 14 MR. SALVO: At least. 15 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. So let me 16 ask you this. On -- with regard to that, what 17 time did the street get cleared and the people 18 gone on that night? 19 MR. SALVO: I think we were cleared by 20 1:45. 21 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. So the 22 officer indicates he is still watching the tavern 23 close almost 13 minutes after -- 14, 15 minutes 24 after you're closed, after you've cleared the 25 street. 116 1 MR. SALVO: Yep. 2 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Now, then it 3 seems to go on and indicate there was a problem 4 inside the club. 5 MR. SALVO: Well, the problem was that a 6 customer just didn't want to leave. 7 MR. HALBROOKS: So everybody was gone, 8 it was just these three people left inside the 9 club? 10 MR. SALVO: I think it was two people. 11 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. 12 MR. SALVO: Two people were left inside 13 the club. 14 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. So when the 15 officer said he was monitoring closing and a large 16 crowd -- 17 MR. SALVO: He was. 18 MR. HALBROOKS: -- it was the security 19 guards, and you were trying to get -- the bar was 20 empty, the street was cleared, you were trying to 21 get the two people out? 22 MR. SALVO: Yes. 23 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. And it was 24 that -- one of those people that was threatening 25 to shoot the place up. 117 1 MR. SALVO: Yes, because we were -- we 2 cleared the street. We had everybody do what they 3 do: our closing procedure. I called all of my 4 security in to remove the last two customers that 5 didn't want to leave. I think one of our security 6 -- I'm not sure how the van pulls up, but that's 7 their friends that was picking them up. The guy 8 didn't want to leave. We escorted the guy out. 9 At that same time, he was screaming at us, telling 10 us that he's going to shoot the place up, he's 11 going to beat us, all this. And you -- we have 12 video of this where -- 13 MR. HALBROOKS: Just answer the 14 questions, because we're going to run out of time. 15 MR. SALVO: All right. 16 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. So here is 17 my question. The guy got pepper sprayed? 18 MR. SALVO: Yes. 19 MR. HALBROOKS: Why did he get pepper 20 sprayed? 21 MR. SALVO: Because we thought -- well, 22 Brian thought he was a threat. 23 MR. HALBROOKS: And so you thought he 24 was reaching for his gun? 25 MR. SALVO: Yes, at that point when he 118 1 got sprayed, yes. 2 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. So he got 3 pepper sprayed. And then -- 4 MR. SALVO: But he was right by his 5 vehicle when that happened. 6 MR. HALBROOKS: Right. And then they 7 took off, they left? 8 MR. SALVO: But he wasn't driving, these 9 people were not driving. 10 MR. HALBROOKS: Right. He got picked up 11 right in front of the club. 12 MR. SALVO: Yes. 13 MR. HALBROOKS: And what time did all of 14 that occur? 15 MR. SALVO: About 1:55. 16 MR. HALBROOKS: How long did all of that 17 take? 18 MR. SALVO: Three minutes. 19 MR. HALBROOKS: And then after it was -- 20 then at one -- and then squads started arriving? 21 MR. SALVO: Yeah, about nine squads 22 came. 23 MR. HALBROOKS: How many minutes later? 24 MR. SALVO: Well, there were two squads 25 on the scene already, just monitoring Texture 119 1 closing, and just, I guess Monet called for 2 backup. 3 MR. HALBROOKS: But there was no need 4 for them by the time they got there? 5 MR. SALVO: Well, I can't make that 6 decision. 7 MR. HALBROOKS: But there wasn't -- 8 MR. SALVO: Was there a need for them? 9 My personal -- no, I don't think so at all. 10 MR. HALBROOKS: And so the police 11 actually went and got the guy in the van 12 eventually, right? 13 MR. SALVO: We brought -- 14 MR. HALBROOKS: Hold on. You can't do 15 that. 16 MR. SALVO: The police officers were on 17 the scene when that happened. 18 MR. HALBROOKS: And at the end of the 19 PA-33, which is now in evidence, it said, "It 20 should be noted that the subject vehicle was 21 searched with consent and no weapons were 22 located." 23 MR. SALVO: That's -- yeah, there wasn't 24 one. 25 MR. HALBROOKS: That was left out of the 120 1 synopsis. 2 MR. SALVO: Yeah, there was no weapon. 3 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. So 1:55, the 4 event occurs; 1:58, Monet calls, and then several 5 minutes later squads show up? 6 MR. SALVO: Yeah, about right. 7 MR. HALBROOKS: Did you bring a video to 8 show us exactly that? 9 MR. SALVO: Yes, I did. 10 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Let's see it 11 quick. 12 MR. SALVO: You'll want to put quads on, 13 and then change the channel to 13 to 15. There 14 you go. All the way down. 15 MR. HALBROOKS: All right, this is fine. 16 All right, what time is this? All right, this is 17 1:43. So at 1:43, the place -- the street is 18 completely cleared, the customers are all gone 19 except for the two inside? 20 MR. SALVO: Why don't you just show -- 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Halbrooks, use the 22 microphone while you're -- 23 MR. HALBROOKS: Sorry. 24 I just want to ask you questions, sir. 25 At this point the -- this is what I want. 121 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You know, I'll give you 2 a moment to find it here, where I won't be 3 counting the time. 4 MR. SALVO: No, he don't -- he's got it. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I just want to make 6 certain that when we do establish it that we put 7 you on the record. So I'm not going to -- 8 MR. SALVO: I'm sitting down. I'm not 9 moving. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'll let you get 11 situated, so. 12 MR. SALVO: I'm not moving. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Like I said, I'd rather 14 have us take a few seconds rather than have you 15 guys race and not get you on the record. 16 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Thank you. 17 All right. So this is -- 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are you set here now? 19 MR. HALBROOKS: This is video from your 20 club on 3/6 at 1:44. 21 MR. SALVO: That's correct. 22 MR. HALBROOKS: At this point, your club 23 is completely closed? 24 MR. SALVO: Yeah, we've been closed, 25 yes. 122 1 MR. HALBROOKS: And the street is 2 cleared, nothing is going on. There is nothing to 3 monitor. All right. Can we fast-forward to 1:55? 4 All right, 1:55. 5 MR. SALVO: That's the van. 6 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay. The van has 7 pulled up. 8 MR. SALVO: That's the van. That's the 9 customer. You're going to notice us taking the 10 customer out. That is our security right in 11 front, right there. 12 MR. HALBROOKS: So there is the customer 13 in the white? 14 MR. SALVO: Yep, and the guy, those two 15 white guys right there just keep talking and 16 talking. And that's our security trying to get 17 them in the car: Brian. 18 MR. HALBROOKS: All of these -- I'm 19 sorry, all of the other -- 20 MR. SALVO: Those are all of our 21 security. 22 MR. HALBROOKS: Right. 23 MR. SALVO: Those are all of our 24 security. 25 MR. HALBROOKS: And there's no squads 123 1 there at this moment? 2 MR. SALVO: There is squads, but it's on 3 the other camera view. 4 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay. All right. 5 MR. SALVO: That's why I wish the quads 6 were on, but you don't want that. 7 And all of the way to the car, that's 8 where he is threatening our security. And this, 9 for the record, this was the last two customers in 10 the bar. And the reason why I didn't escalate 11 trying to get them out of there, because I wanted 12 all of my security in the club to come in to 13 escort them together. Because these guys were -- 14 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Let's -- so 15 bring it forward to 2:00. Go forward quick. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm not counting it. 17 Just so you're aware, I'll let you get situated 18 here. 19 MR. SALVO: Oh, yeah, and once we put 20 him in the car -- 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: That's fine, I'll allow 22 your testimony. 23 MR. HALBROOKS: Just wait a second. 24 What time is this? 25 MR. SALVO: 2:07. 124 1 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. So the car 2 is gone, the situation is over, and all of the 3 squads show up. 4 MR. SALVO: Yeah. 5 You should put quads on, so you actually 6 can see more police. 7 MR. HALBROOKS: But this is literally 11 8 minutes after the incident. 9 MR. SALVO: This is at 2:07. 10 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Okay. Next 11 we have March -- and on the order of the synopsis, 12 it's March 14th, which is 22. And 22 is a loud 13 car. What did you check about that particular 14 incident regarding Chaquita Moor (phonetic)? 15 MR. SALVO: I pulled -- we have an ID 16 scanner that registers every customer that comes 17 into our bar: date and time. So I pulled the 18 records up for these two people that apparently 19 were at Texture; they were not there. I printed 20 the screen to show the people that were there. 21 MR. HALBROOKS: And they were there 22 previously, but not that night? 23 MR. SALVO: Yeah, they have been. Those 24 people have been to Texture, but not that night. 25 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. 125 1 MR. SALVO: And they have actually been 2 there a lot. 3 MR. HALBROOKS: So the car stereo, there 4 is no connection that you know of to the club at 5 all? 6 MR. SALVO: No. 7 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. And then if 8 I can go to, actually, Exhibit 23. Which one is 9 the 30 people? 10 MR. SALVO: That's March 6th. 11 MR. HALBROOKS: March -- no, I want 24. 12 We'll skip to 24 for a second. 13 In front of the club, there were 30 14 people, what happened that particular night? 15 MR. SALVO: That was a Sunday night, if 16 I recall, and we hit capacity, and we normally do 17 on Sundays. And we just shut our doors down. 18 Well, people don't want to leave. And I forgot 19 what officer was there, and we would ask them to 20 just please help us get people out of here. 21 MR. HALBROOKS: And now that you got a 22 PA-33 on that, you would just take care of it 23 yourself in the future? 24 MR. SALVO: I don't know. 25 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. And then 126 1 Incident 25 -- 2 MR. SALVO: Just the truth. 3 MR. HALBROOKS: Oh, I'm sorry, and you 4 don't have any video of that because why? 5 MR. SALVO: Because we didn't think it 6 was a problem. 7 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Incident 25 8 was a car accident. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Halbrooks, may I 10 just follow up on that? 11 MR. HALBROOKS: Sure. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are you -- you have 13 video footage of all nights. 14 MR. SALVO: Every night. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Is it that you only 16 would typically keep something if you determine 17 that a PA-33, or -- 18 MR. SALVO: If there was an incident. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- if it was worthwhile 20 in your viewpoint, is that what you were saying? 21 MR. SALVO: Our procedure at Texture is 22 if there is an incident that involves police, 23 Milwaukee PD or Brian, which is our outside 24 security, or anything inside the club that causes 25 a big disturbance, we write, we log that. 127 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. So I'm assuming 2 that you use video footage only for such a period 3 of time? 4 MR. SALVO: Yes. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You must have to rewrite 6 DVDs or something else because you're probably 7 going through these like hot cakes? 8 MR. SALVO: We put a real nice camera 9 system in years ago, and it still works, and we 10 get about two months' backlog. And I save files, 11 I burn them, keep them for records, just in case 12 -- 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: For those that you 14 deem potentially worth it? 15 MR. SALVO: Like September 6th. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: That's fine. I just 17 wanted to clarify that, in terms of why you 18 indicate -- 19 MR. HALBROOKS: Right. There is no -- 20 you didn't know anything had happened. 21 MR. SALVO: Yeah, exactly. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Go ahead. 23 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay. So can you 24 describe the car accident on April 2nd briefly? 25 MR. SALVO: Yeah, that one's a good one. 128 1 It was at about 12:05. I was working that night, 2 and we're business as normal. It's 12:05, a black 3 SUV pulls up, another lady decides to go around 4 it. I was at the office at that point. My dad 5 was there, which he's there every night. He 6 basically -- it lasted three minutes, four 7 minutes. The lady gets out and starts punching 8 the guy. They got into a car accident in front of 9 Texture. They were not in the facility at all. 10 Video will show that. And they just left, and 11 apparently they went to the police station and 12 filed a complaint. 13 MR. HALBROOKS: The woman made a police 14 report that she had was beaten up by this guy. 15 That isn't what happened in the video, is it? 16 MR. SALVO: No. 17 MR. HALBROOKS: No, the guy was right. 18 MR. SALVO: Yeah, it was a car accident. 19 They were not inside the club. 20 MR. HALBROOKS: And she was not in the 21 club at all that night? 22 MR. SALVO: No. Maybe she was coming 23 there, but that I don't know. 24 MR. HALBROOKS: 12:05, the alderman made 25 fun of me before, but 12:05 would be a time people 129 1 would be coming, not -- 2 MR. SALVO: Yes. 3 MR. HALBROOKS: And so you don't know 4 whether she was coming, but clearly, she was the 5 aggressor and caused the problems? 6 MR. SALVO: Yes, and it's on film. And 7 I gave that to MPD, because they did come, like, 8 three, four days later, to come pick up that 9 footage. 10 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Do we have 11 it quick? Can you just show that one? This one. 12 MR. SALVO: You have to pull up Camera 13 13. That won't work. You have to go to 12:05. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And I just want to state 15 for the record, I'm not counting this. I'm giving 16 you an opportunity to pull this up. 17 MR. LERNER: We appreciate that. 18 MR. SALVO: Thank you. 19 MR. HALBROOKS: Ready? Is that the 20 right angle? 21 MR. SALVO: Yeah, yeah, it's happening 22 right now. That's the black SUV. 23 MR. HALBROOKS: The SUV pulls up. 24 MR. SALVO: And the other person decides 25 to go around the wrong way. Boom. That's where 130 1 it happened, right there: car accident. 2 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Can you move the 3 microphone stand? It's blocking people watching 4 at home. 5 MR. SALVO: She gets out; he gets out. 6 That's Brian walking up to the car, which is the 7 individual behind me. They're arguing. Well, 8 she's being the aggressor. Then the -- 9 MR. HALBROOKS: She actually punches him 10 right here, right? 11 MR. SALVO: Yeah, right there. She just 12 comes up to him. That's enough. 13 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Let's go to 14 -- but there is no connection to the club other 15 than it came in front of the club? 16 MR. SALVO: No. 17 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. The last 18 incident -- 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: May I ask? 20 MR. HALBROOKS: Sure. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'll stop the time here. 22 How did you ascertain -- did you get 23 police reports from the incident and cross 24 reference individuals in the club that night at 25 least? 131 1 MR. SALVO: Yeah, well, before I got the 2 PA-33, an officer visited us two days later and 3 wanted that particular time. So me and the 4 officer sat there, and we found it. And he's 5 like, "Yeah, that's the car, that's that." Here's 6 the DVD, and it was done. And then later on, I 7 found it on the PA-33, of this incident. 8 MR. HALBROOKS: And then you checked the 9 names? 10 MR. SALVO: Oh, and then we checked -- 11 yeah, of course. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And cross referenced the 13 names. How -- now, you've indicated your DVDs in 14 terms of your video footage gets kept two months 15 approximately. What about, so you're saying you 16 have a machine that reads driver's licenses or 17 something, or what did you -- 18 MR. SALVO: Besides the camera system, 19 we have -- and we brought it in last year, it's an 20 ID scanner. It's a handheld unit that basically 21 takes all 50 states' IDs, scans it and takes a 22 physical picture of the person, and then matches 23 them. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Does it hold that in 25 perpetuity? Is there a life on -- 132 1 MR. SALVO: No, there is no life on 2 that. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. All right. 4 MR. SALVO: Yeah, currently, I have a -- 5 yeah, there's a lot of customers. 6 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderwoman Coggs. 8 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Is it deleteable? 9 MR. SALVO: I'm sure, probably. I'm 10 not, you know, anything is if you know what you're 11 doing. It's possible, but I don't think you can 12 -- you've got to delete the whole day. Because if 13 I deleted one person -- now that I think about it, 14 if you delete one, it would delete every time they 15 weren't there. In the prior two people, we found 16 that they were customers of Texture Nightclub, but 17 not that night. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 19 MR. HALBROOKS: And that's in the 20 motion, those printouts. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. 22 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Lastly, on 23 March 6th, can you just briefly describe -- we'll 24 get the video going. 25 MR. SALVO: All right. Yeah, a fight 133 1 broke out -- well, arguing broke out inside of 2 Texture Nightclub. They got escorted out. As 3 soon as they got escorted out, people started 4 arguing, and you'll see it on the screen. 5 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay. 6 MR. SALVO: There's -- 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Do you need a second? 8 MR. HALBROOKS: If we could. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'd rather save your 10 testimony for when it corroborates. 11 MR. SALVO: Go ahead. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Just hold your testimony 13 here and find the footage. 14 MR. SALVO: Now, if you notice -- 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I mean, just let me know 16 when you're ready. I don't want to start 17 preemptively here. 18 MR. SALVO: Here we go. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead. 20 MR. HALBROOKS: Go. 21 MR. SALVO: Well, we just took out two, 22 three people. And our outside security, Brian, is 23 handling that right there. And he physically 24 grabs the person's -- whatever officer is there, 25 we just stamped it, right on their hood. Then a 134 1 couple other people come out of the back. If you 2 can see Brian, he's running just to -- I mean, 3 they are trying to control the situation, but, I 4 mean, a fight did break out, but it didn't last 20 5 minutes. I mean, there's -- you'll see people 6 leaving. And there's people that are trying to 7 pay attention to what's going on. You can see -- 8 but that's my security running around. The guy in 9 the black, there's red. My guys, the majority of 10 my guys have red T-shirts, or they are all in 11 black. That's what's going on. And half of those 12 people in there is my head security, you know, my 13 security. And then now you got MPD coming in. 14 That's your 40, 50 people. That's the worst of 15 it. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: In your estimation here, 17 how many of those individuals involved -- 18 MR. SALVO: Are fighting? 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No, no -- are your 20 security? Who I presume aren't necessarily 21 fighting, but trying to push people off and move 22 them out. 23 MR. SALVO: At lease 12 to 14. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: 12 to 14 of that larger 25 group? 135 1 MR. SALVO: Yeah, because, I mean, 2 protocol is to get it stopped. We're closing at 3 this point. Actually, the bar is closed. So you 4 will find all of my security outside right now. 5 MR. HALBROOKS: And, Mr. Chair, I'm 6 giving you a copy of the incident report, which 7 starts out at 30 to 40 people and then expanded as 8 the hearsay documents proceeded. The original 9 report said 30 to 40. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We have that as part of 11 the notice. 12 MR. HALBROOKS: This wasn't noticed. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So this is not one that 14 is -- 15 MR. HALBROOKS: No, this is the actual 16 incident report. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The incident reports 18 though would have been mailed to you on our 19 screen -- 20 MR. HALBROOKS: This is the only thing 21 we got as part of the public records request. And 22 so -- 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. That's fine. 24 We'll be happy to make -- we'll have Alderman 25 Kovac move to make this incident report packet 136 1 that is, on the front date, at least, dated 2 3/6/2011, part of our official record in this 3 proceeding. Are there any objections to that? 4 Hearing none, so ordered. 5 MR. HALBROOKS: And that indicates the 6 actual report, which was 30 to 40, and then as the 7 hearsay proceeded, it went -- all right. So I'm 8 going to show you now, 2:12, the street's 9 completely cleared. So the report -- 10 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Mr. Chairman. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yes. 12 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: I'm just, you know, 13 you're only showing one direction of the club, 14 what about the other side? 15 MR. SALVO: Yes, totally, put quads on, 16 please. 17 MR. HALBROOKS: So the incident report 18 says 20 minutes, but you can see, seven minutes 19 later, it's all cleared up. All right. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And that's your 21 allegation, that that is, corroborates with seven 22 minutes later in the video, the screen that was 23 shown down there that was just -- 24 MR. SALVO: Yeah, I'm just showing you 25 the whole street now. That's what I wanted. 137 1 MR. HALBROOKS: Stop it right there. 2 All right. What has -- the lower left, 3 what is that one? 4 MR. SALVO: That is Bruce Street. 5 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Now, earlier 6 you heard Julie Kaufmann say cars go east on Bruce 7 Street. What do you have to say about that? 8 MR. SALVO: Well, it's impossible; we 9 barricade that street. We barricade it. We also 10 put our outside security -- 11 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay, hold on. So the 12 cars cannot do what she said; it's physically 13 impossible? 14 MR. SALVO: It's physically impossible. 15 MR. HALBROOKS: And secondly, when the 16 guards were even gone from their post -- 17 MR. SALVO: People were just doing it on 18 their own because they're just used to us doing 19 the same closing procedure every night. 20 MR. HALBROOKS: Nobody can go towards 21 Julie Kaufmann's house? 22 MR. SALVO: No, you can't even cut 23 through Milwaukee Tech. 24 MR. HALBROOKS: And since she reported 25 that she comes there and watches, you have been 138 1 watching for her for the last year? 2 MR. SALVO: Yes. 3 Mr. Halbrooks: And she has never showed 4 up? 5 MR. SALVO: Yes, since the last meeting, 6 I told Brian -- 7 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay, she's never shown 8 up? 9 MR. SALVO: "-- if this lady -- please 10 make sure she's okay." I've said that to him. 11 And you can -- 12 MR. HALBROOKS: Stop. Just answer the 13 question. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Just a follow-up to that 15 here. Your bar barricades Bruce Street? 16 MR. SALVO: Yeah, halfway so people 17 don't go down her way. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Is that something you've 19 made known or have the acceptance of the police 20 department in? I just -- 21 MR. SALVO: We just did it. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. What you're 23 saying is, they've never disputed that? 24 MR. SALVO: They never -- 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, neither here nor 139 1 there. That is not before us here. 2 MR. SALVO: I just want to say, Alderman 3 Bohl, we try our best. And I want to say that 4 Milwaukee Police Department, I'm all for it. I 5 just don't expect them to help me; I need to help 6 myself. As a businessowner, I never wanted MPD's 7 help. It's great that they're there. And it's 8 sad that I have to subpoena officers here, okay, 9 because I didn't want to do that. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't -- I just want 11 to provide you that opportunity -- you're winding 12 down on time, I don't want to dispute that. I 13 just wanted to raise some questions here to you to 14 follow up to that. When it indicated that you 15 barricaded off to prevent cars from going onto 16 Bruce -- 17 MR. SALVO: From going east. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 19 MR. SALVO: Going east on Bruce. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So they, theoretically, 21 unless they try to attempt to make their way 22 around -- 23 MR. SALVO: We have a guard standing 24 there. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 140 1 MR. SALVO: There is a barricade. There 2 is a guard. Plus, we also prevent cars from going 3 south. 4 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Can we use that map 5 that you had earlier? Didn't you have a map or 6 something? 7 MR. SALVO: Yeah. Can I stand up and 8 show you guys? 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sure. 10 MR. SALVO: All right. I liked it over 11 here. Can you hear me? All right. 12 This is Texture Nightclub. We put -- 13 our squad blocks the way going -- blocks going 14 south. We put a barricade right on the corner of 15 5th and Bruce; we own that property as well. On 16 5th and Bruce, we prevent cars from going east. 17 We've been doing this for three years. All right. 18 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Where is Bradley Tech 19 on there? 20 MR. SALVO: Bradley Tech is right here. 21 This is Julie's house. 22 You cannot possibly go through, you 23 can't; it's impossible. And I have a camera to 24 show you that. 25 ALDERMAN KOVAC: She was talking about 141 1 not going through the field, but the parking lot. 2 MR. SALVO: No, she stated that she goes 3 right through this. She comes through this. 4 ALDERMAN KOVAC: No, she didn't. I 5 remember the testimony. She talked about there's 6 a parking lot, and there is a way to get out. And 7 then she said that barricade sometimes gets 8 jumped, but not always. 9 MR. SALVO: We never barricade down 10 here. We never barricade -- we only barricade 11 right on the corner of 5th and Bruce. Our 12 customers go -- we force them to go north, and 13 they go right to the 6th Street Viaduct, and -- 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sir -- please have him 15 removed. 16 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Did he just go up to 17 her? Oh, my God. 18 MR. HALBROOKS: What? What happened? 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm calling a recess on 20 this hearing. 21 (Recess taken.) 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: This is the resumption 23 of the Common Council License Committee. 24 MR. SALVO: I'm going to get up. I'm 25 just going to finish what I was saying. 142 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And we'll note the time 2 is 2:20 in the afternoon. Sorry for our brief 3 recess. 4 MR. SALVO: Okay. Ready? 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead. 6 MR. SALVO: All right. So Texture 7 Nightclub is right here. And what we do is, we 8 put, Brian puts a squad in front so traffic does 9 not flow south, and then we put a barricade right 10 on 5th and Bruce so cars can't go east. And we've 11 been doing that forever. 12 MR. HALBROOKS: So when Julie Kaufmann 13 testified that the cars go east on Bruce, that 14 doesn't happen? That doesn't happen, that doesn't 15 happen that cars go east on Bruce? 16 MR. SALVO: Well, no, we try to prevent 17 that, I mean -- 18 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. Next 19 question. You were here when Julie Kaufmann 20 testified about June 2nd and that there was a 21 shooting? 22 MR. SALVO: Yes. 23 MR. HALBROOKS: Where were you when the 24 guns went off? 25 MR. SALVO: Inside Texture Nightclub. 143 1 MR. HALBROOKS: And where -- was Officer 2 Agnew there? 3 MR. SALVO: Yes. 4 MR. HALBROOKS: And where was he? 5 MR. SALVO: On the site, right in front 6 of Texture. 7 MR. HALBROOKS: And were you -- so did 8 you go outside and talk to him? 9 MR. SALVO: Yes. 10 MR. HALBROOKS: And was there a police 11 response to 5th and Bruce? 12 MR. SALVO: There was police there 13 already. 14 MR. HALBROOKS: Where? How far -- 15 MR. SALVO: 5th and Bruce. 5th and 16 Bruce, right on the corner. 17 MR. HALBROOKS: But where was the 18 shooting? 19 MR. SALVO: I don't know, but -- it was 20 6th and Bruce. 21 MR. HALBROOKS: All right. So it had 22 nothing to do with Texture? 23 MR. SALVO: Can't say it was. 24 MR. HALBROOKS: It wasn't by Texture or 25 nothing. 144 1 MR. SALVO: It was on 6th and Bruce. 2 MR. HALBROOKS: And you were outside 3 standing with Officer Agnew after that? 4 MR. SALVO: Yes. 5 MR. HALBROOKS: Okay. All right. 6 Nothing further. 7 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I just -- 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I mean, we're winding 9 down, I will allow you just to wrap up here. 10 MR. HALBROOKS: I think I have one other 11 short video, a couple of seconds. 12 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I have a question. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by Committee 14 first. 15 Alderwoman Coggs. 16 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Hold the map up, 17 please. Hold the map up again. 18 MR. SALVO: Yes, ma'am. 19 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: In the area behind 20 Bradley Tech, right before the field, that open 21 area there -- 22 MR. SALVO: This? 23 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: To the -- between the 24 building and the field. Between the building and 25 the field, right there. 145 1 MR. SALVO: Yes. 2 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Is that not a drive 3 area where people can park and drive through? 4 MR. SALVO: It's a -- it's a parking -- 5 I mean, there's -- you can't go all of the way 6 through, not that I know of. 7 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: You can. 8 MR. SALVO: You can? 9 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: You can. 10 MR. SALVO: Yeah, but -- 11 MR. HALBROOKS: We have a video. 12 MR. SALVO: We took video over the 13 weekend. Sunday night, we were -- 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Could you actually even 15 pull the standing microphone -- 16 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Not that people 17 aren't supposed to, but I'm just saying, it is 18 possible to drive a car through there. 19 MR. SALVO: I don't know that, and I'm 20 sincerely -- 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Salvo, I don't mind 22 if you could actually grab the microphone, from 23 the standing microphone, actually pull it on the 24 other side so you give us the ability to see but 25 still answer the question. Go ahead. 146 1 MR. SALVO: Okay. I never drove down 2 that. I thought you couldn't drive through. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The other question that, 4 I guess -- Alderwoman, do you mind if I just do a 5 follow-up to that? 6 Mr. Salvo, when you point to where you 7 state that you try to prevent the traffic from 8 moving east, that's for flowing vehicular traffic 9 that may be on, what, 5th Street? 10 MR. SALVO: That would be traffic that 11 would be on 5th Street. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. But are you 13 disputing that you may have customers, or there 14 may be customers of other establishments, that are 15 parked somewhere on the block east of you that may 16 walk around on the sidewalk to get to parked cars 17 to the east of you? 18 MR. SALVO: I'm sorry, I don't 19 understand. 20 MR. HALBROOKS: Do your customers park 21 by Julie Kaufmann's -- 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm saying -- 23 MR. SALVO: Oh, do they park down here? 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm saying, could there 25 be customers from your establishment, or any 147 1 establishment that is on 5th Street, that is 2 parked the block east of you that walk around that 3 corner to get to their parked car through there? 4 MR. SALVO: I've never seen that before. 5 If that happens -- 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You're not -- you don't 7 block the sidewalk to prevent people from walking? 8 MR. SALVO: No, no, you can walk on the 9 sidewalk. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You're saying that 11 vehicular traffic isn't at least allowed -- 12 MR. SALVO: Allowed -- for 15 minutes, 13 is not allowed to go east. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And that, what, that 15 coincides right after the time you've closed your 16 establishment? 17 MR. SALVO: For example, Sunday nights, 18 barricade is out at 1:10, it's off the street by 19 1:30, 1:35, because, normally, everything slows 20 down by then. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac. 23 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Just to be clear, the 24 two statements are not inconsistent with each 25 other. There is a 15-minute period when they 148 1 generally block it off; Ms. Kaufmann has 2 identified a two-hour period. So neither one 3 contradicts each other. 4 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Mr. Chairman. 5 MR. HALBROOKS: Well, I'm still asking. 6 If I could -- 7 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: You said you were 8 done. 9 MR. SALVO: Yeah, I'm not understanding 10 him either. 11 MR. HALBROOKS: He says that people 12 could go east and go over by Julie Kaufman's 13 house. 14 MR. SALVO: In order for that to happen, 15 sir, okay, this is Texture, for them to go to 16 Julie's, they have to go like that. 17 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Or cut across Bradley 18 Tech. 19 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Or cut around the other 20 way, which -- 21 MR. SALVO: Or they've got to go -- 22 ALDERMAN KOVAC: -- that's what her 23 testimony was, that they drag race down 4th and 24 cut around her place on 3rd. That was her 25 testimony, and other than the 15 minutes when you 149 1 have a barricade up, they could do that. Or they 2 can leave -- 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: What he's saying is that 4 somebody who leaves earlier -- 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Or later. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- or if somehow they're 7 parked somewhere where it's beyond the 15-minute 8 duration, roughly -- is what he's saying. 9 MR. SALVO: When there is high volume, 10 when we're letting out, that's when we bring 11 everything out. We have a procedure where we 12 don't let people go south, and we don't let people 13 go east. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You're saying during the 15 window right after closing is where you try to 16 push out, clear as much traffic as possible and 17 attempt to barricade that eastbound traffic? 18 MR. SALVO: That's correct. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: But it's during that 20 rough 15-minute window after your closing on 21 whatever given night, is that -- when you 22 establish that 15 minutes, it would be after you 23 make last call or when you say "everyone out," is 24 that correct? 25 MR. SALVO: Music is off -- normally, my 150 1 rule of thumb is, because I make the calls, when 2 we are at capacity, especially on Sunday is where 3 I give myself a 45-minute window until bar time to 4 get everybody off the street. Normally, we're 5 pretty good at getting everybody off the street by 6 1:40. I have video of Sunday night, where I had 7 this gentleman -- actually, I had him do all 8 weekend, he did it last year, where he leaves 9 Texture Nightclub just before we're letting out, 10 and he walks all of the way to this point and sits 11 there with the camera on. 12 MR. HALBROOKS: And what's the video on 13 right now? 14 MR. SALVO: This is Sunday night at 15 1:22. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I will -- hold on, Mr. 17 Salvo. 18 Were there any additional questions at 19 this point? 20 I'll provide you a very, very brief, 21 short, short last video. 22 MR. SALVO: He's right there. 23 MR. HALBROOKS: Can you take the mic, 24 sir? Tell us your name. 25 MR. PHILLIPS: My name is Reuben 151 1 Phillips. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Mr. Halbrooks. 3 MR. HALBROOKS: Yes. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: When it comes to you 5 asking who he is, I don't know if he has been 6 sworn in, and I would try to establish that here. 7 MR. HALBROOKS: You were -- 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Hold on. 9 You were sworn in previously? 10 MR. PHILLIPS: Yes. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sir, your name is what? 12 MR. PHILLIPS: Reuben Phillips. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And your address, 14 please? 15 MR. PHILLIPS: 8566 West Appleton 16 Avenue, Unit E, Milwaukee, 53225. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. And when -- 18 you are indeed taking these video photographs? 19 MR. PHILLIPS: Yes, sir. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are you employed by Mr. 21 Salvo or the bar to do such a thing, or are you 22 part of security, or what's your rationale for 23 being the person to take these photos? 24 MR. PHILLIPS: I'm employed by Pictures 25 by Andre. I'm a club photographer. We provide 152 1 photography services for the club as well as 2 members of the club. And he asked us to perform 3 this. I was very familiar with the camera, so. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: How many times did you 5 go out and take photographs of the street? 6 MR. PHILLIPS: For this occasion -- 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Different evenings, 8 meaning, different days. 9 MR. PHILLIPS: This past weekend: 10 Friday, Saturday, Sunday. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So this is video footage 12 from one of the days from this past weekend? 13 MR. PHILLIPS: Correct, this was from 14 Sunday evening, very early Monday morning. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And to your knowledge, 16 that time that's listed on the video there is 17 correct? 18 MR. PHILLIPS: Yes. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So you're saying that 20 it's 1:23? 21 MR. PHILLIPS: Yes. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And that corroborates -- 23 okay. 24 MR. HALBROOKS: And where are you in the 25 video? 153 1 MR. PHILLIPS: Just finishing crossing 2 Bradley Field. And I'm currently on 3rd Street. 3 And I'll show it to the left of the section, 4 that's 3rd and Bruce. 5 MR. HALBROOKS: And you have the sound 6 on? Can you turn it up so we can hear? 7 MR. SALVO: Yeah, the sound is off. We 8 are letting out. We have been letting out for 9 nine minutes right now. 10 (Video narrative.) 3rd and Bruce. 11 MR. SALVO: We were packed. 12 (Video narrative.) Club started letting 13 out at 1:15 a.m. 14 MR. HALBROOKS: Can a car go through 15 Bradley Tech, or were you just able to walk 16 through there? 17 MR. PHILLIPS: I was able to walk 18 through there. For a car to go through Bradley 19 Tech, they literally would have to basically jump 20 the curbing that's there. 21 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Which they do all of 22 the time. 23 MR. PHILLIPS: Ma'am, I wouldn't say all 24 of the time, but to say it's impossible, no. 25 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 154 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Is the Committee -- 2 acceptable at this time? 3 MR. HALBROOKS: Now, you videotaped -- 4 is there any difference on the other two nights? 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sir, if you would stand 6 up and use the microphone there too? 7 MR. PHILLIPS: About the only thing 8 different is on the video that was shot Friday 9 night, it does show some patrons that were parked 10 at what would be the corner of 2nd and Bruce. 11 Basically, they were on the corner, their cars, 12 they were a little boisterous getting into their 13 cars and driving away. From my opinion, just 14 knowing and operating at different clubs around 15 the area in the city, they were patrons of Fuego. 16 Like I said, they got in their cars, they had some 17 music -- 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Fuego is another club, 19 is that -- 20 MR. PHILLIPS: Correct. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Now, did you see them -- 22 do I do the "did you see them leave Fuego or come 23 into Fuego that you know that they were -- " 24 MR. PHILLIPS: No, sir. The only reason 25 why I -- 155 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So you have no reason to 2 believe that they weren't individuals who were 3 from this club because you can't ascertain whether 4 they came from Fuego, this establishment, or any 5 other establishment there, other than your best 6 guess? 7 MR. PHILLIPS: With the direction they 8 came from, yes, sir. The direction they came from 9 -- 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So you can't ascertain 11 whether they decided to walk around the block and 12 take an extra walk to get fresh air after they 13 left the club, could you? 14 MR. PHILLIPS: No, sir, I cannot. 15 MR. HALBROOKS: Mr. Chair, you need a 16 law degree to ask those questions. 17 Can you go -- 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I just watched you 19 before us many times this last year. 20 MR. HALBROOKS: Don't try to imitate it. 21 There's a lot more going on. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Halbrooks, I want 23 to -- 24 MR. HALBROOKS: Can we go to it? Do you 25 want to see it? Because you can see it yourself. 156 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I really want to -- I've 2 provided you, and I've even stopped the clock, 3 I've provided you over four minutes here. I'm 4 going to ask that, in all fairness here, that we 5 provide both sides that ample time. I tried to 6 give you additional time. I'm going to ask for a 7 closing here from the alderman, and then provide 8 one to you here as well too. 9 Before we get to any closing, are there 10 questions by Committee? No questions by 11 Committee. 12 Alderman Witkowiak. 13 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Thank you. 14 Mr. Chairman, Members, it should be 15 clear to you after viewing everything today that 16 this place is still a nuisance, which I contended 17 it was a year ago and two years ago. Nothing much 18 has changed. They provide some video evidence 19 saying, "Well, this was our security people," 20 they're talking about the time where the police 21 said there was 30 people on the street. Well, you 22 saw the disturbance. I guess you could count the 23 people. Maybe there was 28, so there wasn't 30. 24 It was definitely a disturbance at or around 25 closing time. This thing happens on a regular 157 1 basis. They brought this particular clip in 2 because it related to one of the synopses on the 3 police report. 4 Going and videotaping, standing on 3rd 5 Street and the surrounding neighborhood, they 6 showed you one night or one occurrence. As far as 7 the cars -- so what happens on all of the other 8 nights? We don't know that. They showed you one 9 that was relatively mild. 10 They talk about the cars not being able 11 to go east from there. What about all of the cars 12 that were parked east of the barricades? And I 13 can tell you, when I drive through that area at 14 night -- 15 ALDERMAN HALBROOKS: Objection. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Let's see where he goes 17 here. I'll -- 18 MR. HALBROOKS: He's providing new 19 information, and that's what we -- that's why I 20 asked the question earlier, Mr. Chair. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Witkowiak, I'll 22 -- if you need, I'll let you provide some 23 follow-up questioning. If you do want to do some 24 cross examination. 25 MR. HALBROOKS: Well, then I should get 158 1 to call -- no, that's why I asked the question. 2 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair, it's your 3 ruling, let him -- if he wants to talk -- 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yeah, I'm going to ask 5 -- well, let's see where he goes with this. 6 Alderman, go ahead. 7 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: Well, there's some 8 question that it's impossible that cars that are 9 driving east, there are some cars that are already 10 parked east of there, that are already parked east 11 of there. They can go east because they don't 12 have to go through the barricades; common sense. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman, that was in -- 14 that was my point in asking if there were patrons 15 ever that were allowed to walk around the corner 16 that, frankly, parked there. 17 MR. SALVO: Yes, yes. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yeah, and as I said, 19 they could be from your place or theoretically, 20 potentially other places, but the ability is, even 21 if you barricade off traffic from being able to 22 turn there, that there may be customers that were 23 previously parked somewhere, customers from that 24 strip, that are parked east of there. 25 Go ahead. Please proceed. 159 1 ALDERMAN WITKOWIAK: We have a fair 2 amount of evidence versus the police report that 3 the nuisance continues here on a fairly regular 4 basis. We have testimony, personal testimony, 5 from someone who lives -- they dispute -- probably 6 a block-and-a-half from the back door. If you 7 want to consider that distance a big deal, you've 8 got to remember, there is an open field in between 9 there. So it would be a line of sight that is not 10 obstructed. When, also, the witness says, in two 11 occasions in the last year, she has actually gone 12 out, walked up there and saw that these people 13 came from Texture. 14 We are charged to guarantee the health, 15 safety, welfare and peaceful enjoyment of our 16 neighborhood. This is definitely a disruption to 17 that. Remember, again, for this hundred times 18 since you've been in this office, this license is 19 a privilege; it's not a right. They don't have a 20 right to be there and do that. 21 They talk about trying to dispute the 22 items on the police report. They talk about the 23 car accident that turned into a fight that led to 24 an item on the police report. Well, the police 25 report says that they interviewed the people and 160 1 the two girls that were in the one car said they 2 were at Texture, and then they left Texture, and 3 then this car accident happened. And they show 4 you a video saying, "Well, see, they weren't in 5 the club." 6 And as far as the other two people they 7 were referring to, trying to dispute another item 8 on the police report, saying that, "Well, these 9 guys weren't in the club that night, but they're 10 regular patrons, they come to the club all of the 11 time." And there is this constant activity, 12 constant disruptive activity, that takes place on 13 the street that these people are parked. And they 14 came there because of their friends at Texture. 15 That's why that item is on the police report. 16 I'm asking you again, when is enough 17 enough? How long are we going to put up with this 18 stuff? And by simply testifying and saying, 19 "Listen, this is the last year we're going to come 20 to the table, so we're never going to ask for 21 renewal again. This is it. This is the last 22 time. You know, once this next year is up, 23 everything is all over." Does that make anything 24 that happens here okay? It's okay because it's 25 going to be the last year? I don't buy it. It's 161 1 not okay with me. 2 So I'm asking the Committee to, please, 3 give our neighborhood some relief. Tell these 4 people that they cannot cause this sort of 5 disruption week in and week out in our 6 neighborhood. I'm asking this Committee to 7 non-renew the Class B Tavern License and the 8 Tavern Dance License to this premise once again. 9 Thank you. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 11 Can I just follow up one question here 12 with Mr. Salvo or Mr. Halbrooks? There was a 13 submission that was made sort of in passing 14 earlier that this would be the last renewal. What 15 was -- if you don't mind my asking, what was meant 16 by that? 17 MR. SALVO: In June of 2012, we've done 18 a ten-year commitment at that location. Our lease 19 expires in June of 2012, and we're done. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So you're envisioning at 21 this time that you may not renew? There's been -- 22 MR. SALVO: You can put it on record 23 right now: not renewing. If I sit here, you guys 24 can all ban me. 25 MR. HALBROOKS: He's under oath. 162 1 MR. SALVO: I'm under oath. I'm telling 2 you the truth. That's 11 months, in June. Our 3 license goes to July 26th. 4 MR. HALBROOKS: June 1st? 5 MR. SALVO: Well, I would need at least 6 ten days to get my stuff. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I just wanted to 8 understand what that was for the record. 9 MR. SALVO: I can't -- no more. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. 11 Mr. Halbrooks, your closing here. 12 MR. HALBROOKS: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 13 All right. I want to summarize and 14 respond to what you just heard. By my account, 15 the Milwaukee Police Department appeared here to 16 provide information and did not object to this 17 license, unlike a number of other circumstances 18 recently. The neighborhood association did not 19 appear and object. A single neighbor showed up. 20 And to summarize her testimony, regarding e-mails, 21 not a single e-mail, as we went through them 22 e-mail by e-mail, provided any factual basis that 23 any of the individuals referred to in the e-mails 24 were from Texture. You've heard her testify, 25 you've got her dramatic e-mail about gun shots and 163 1 police response, and she sat here under oath and 2 said "5th and Bruce." And Officer Agnew and Mr. 3 Salvo were standing right outside there, and it 4 didn't happen. The gun shots were somewhere else 5 and not related to Texture. And to just pin 6 everything that she can think of on Texture is a 7 little problematic when she has the number of 8 clubs around her that she does. 9 And with regard to the questions about 10 the video or the comments that the alderman made 11 about the video, we have three nights of video, 12 and I chose the night to show you the total quiet 13 because that's the night Ms. Kaufmann testified 14 was the worst. So that was, by her testimony, the 15 one person who was there besides our videographer 16 that she said that was the worst, and that's what 17 you heard. There was no drag racing, there was no 18 congregating, not a single car, not a single car 19 came by. 20 Now, there are five items on the police 21 synopsis. The two items that I spotlit before we 22 got started refer to a car accident, which as the 23 alderman wants to blame on this club, I don't 24 think you can. We have provided you records that 25 she wasn't in the club, and the driving that 164 1 occurred, clearly she was the aggressor. And that 2 should not be held against the club. 3 And the other, loud car stereo, was a 4 better part of a quarter-mile away, and did not -- 5 also, there was no proof that the person was 6 inside of the club. So to say, "Well, the police 7 report says that she says she was in there." It 8 is double hearsay. And it's also not provable by 9 the record that was provided by Texture. 10 The 30 people outside, I don't know, it 11 didn't even -- nobody even knew anything of it. 12 And I think of the backhanded way that this item 13 was referred to. Clearly, it was not a problem. 14 And for those of you that have looked at the 15 definition of loitering, I think it's a difficult 16 charge to suggest in that particular circumstance 17 for the two individuals. 18 And then that leaves the other two 19 incidents: September 6th and March 6th. 20 And so on September 6th, the police 21 report is just wrong. The police report indicates 22 that 1:58, we're monitoring closing. You saw at 23 1:43 that the closing was long since over, and 24 that literally at 1:58, not only was the whole 25 incident over with, but the two people had been 165 1 removed from the club and gotten out of there. 2 And so when the police did show up and intervene 3 and catch the guys, they found there was no gun. 4 And an incident that literally you saw the entire 5 circumstance in two minutes, was reported as one 6 of these 20-minute street-clearing incidents in 7 which nine squads showed up. They did show up, 8 but well after the thing was over with. 9 So finally, that leaves us with March 10 6th. On March 6th, it's clear there were three 11 people in a fight. It's clear that the number of 12 squads were there, and that the fight started -- 13 again, the police report indicates 1:58; you can 14 see the fight didn't start until about 2:05 or 15 2:06, and then by 2:13, the street was clear. So 16 it was not 20 minutes, and the orderly dispersal 17 that normally occurs didn't occur because the 18 guards were all trying to assist in breaking up 19 the fight. So to the extent that one night in the 20 course of a year, and that there was the police 21 report itself, the incident report, of the person 22 in the firsthand response wrote 30 to 40 people, 23 when 14 of them were security guards, it doesn't 24 indicate that it was as much of a fight as it was 25 described. So I think that the response was 166 1 adequate on both the police and the club's 2 security, and it got resolved as quickly as 3 possible. It is very clear that, you know -- and 4 I think -- when I had a chance to talk to 5 Lieutenant MacGillis, and he said, "Well, 20 6 minutes, it might have been five minutes," it 7 might have been because it probably seems longer 8 while you're doing it, but you saw graphically how 9 long it took. And so I don't believe that is a 10 reason to suspend, let alone non-renew, because of 11 the response and because of what happened. 12 So I would ask at this point that you 13 renew Texture for one last time, for the ten-month 14 period. I believe that the arrival of Lieutenant 15 MacGillis has shown the same benefits that has 16 worked in the other parts of the city, and the 17 tenseness has gone away, the collaboration has 18 increased, and there have been no incidents 19 whatsoever since he organized the meeting and 20 organized the communication. So I would ask that 21 you renew them. Thank you. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. All right. That 23 will conclude the hearing. We are in committee on 24 the matter. 25 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 167 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac. 2 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Last year we had 3 considerable discussion about this, with actually 4 substantially similar in facts. I was willing to 5 do a suspension more so than what the Committee 6 did. I ended up voting for the 25 days in 7 committee but would have gone longer based on the 8 facts last year. And I said at Council that the 9 main reason I was willing to sort of give them 10 once last chance with those facts was that I felt 11 that there was some optimism about the future, and 12 I felt that they had been proactive and there were 13 a number of items on their police report last year 14 that were reflected well on them. And I had made 15 it clear that it's not the number of items; it's 16 the quality of the items. 17 So the motion I'm going to make today is 18 based, of course, on the police report and all of 19 the items from this past year, which is 21, 22, 20 23, 24 and 25. Some are worse than others; all 21 kind of relate to stuff going on outside of the 22 club, be it, noise or fights; basically, noise and 23 fights. We also have -- it's true we only had one 24 neighbor, but it was consistent testimony. It 25 was, in my opinion, reliable. I found the 168 1 attempts of the applicant and the lawyer to impugn 2 the integrity of that witness to be, frankly, 3 reprehensible. Because I think, was every fact 4 exactly right in her testimony, or in anyone's 5 testimony? No, but was the gist of it accurate to 6 the best of her knowledge? Absolutely. And I can 7 understand why she would feel intimidated by the 8 way she is treated in this room by the applicant, 9 by friends of the applicant, by the applicant's 10 lawyer. I can understand why she would feel 11 intimidated because her concerns are not listened 12 to and addressed; they are marginalized and 13 stigmatized. And does she exaggerate 14 occasionally? Probably. Don't we all once we 15 become an interested party? And this idea, it was 16 too clever by half, in my opinion, you brought up 17 June 20th, she told you she was not sure about it 18 and then you provided video evidence to prove that 19 she wasn't sure about something that didn't 20 happen. Well, she told you she wasn't sure about 21 it, and you brought it up and proved she never 22 wrote an e-mail about it. So I don't know what 23 you think you proved other than that you would 24 rather embarrass her than address her legitimate 25 concerns. We've had testimony this year, and 169 1 we've had testimony in previous years from -- the 2 testimony this year from the priest who's next 3 door, testimony last year, which I know we can't 4 consider, but from a well-respected lawyer who's 5 down the block. And, frankly, I think people 6 during the day, it speaks well for the fact that 7 you clean up. You address the litter, and so your 8 daytime neighbors seem to think you're a nice 9 addition to the neighborhood. A number of people 10 in this room who didn't testify this year but did 11 last year, I know what they would have said. They 12 would have said they like going to your club; they 13 have a good time there. And all things being 14 equal, I would rather see a club like this stay 15 open. I'd rather see young people, or not so 16 young people, have a place to go out and dance and 17 have a good time; that's part of what a city needs 18 to offer. But we have to ask ourselves the 19 question, at what cost, and is it a reasonable 20 cost, and has it been fully addressed? 21 And I'll be honest, if I was on the 22 fence before between 90 days and nonrenewal, the 23 fact that you're going to close in June no matter 24 what, pushes me way over that fence. Because when 25 I think about the future, I think about future 170 1 hearings like this hanging over your head, and how 2 because of future hearings like this, you're going 3 to behave in a certain way, now that you know 4 you're never going to have another hearing, I 5 don't -- listen, what Sergeant MacGillis said is 6 the best thing going in your favor. That fact 7 that you cooperate well with the new strategies 8 that Chief Flynn and all of his deputies are 9 instituting is wonderful; gives me some optimism. 10 But you're out in June no matter what, so between 11 now and June, I don't have confidence that it's 12 not going to get a whole lot worse. 13 We're in committee. So based on 14 neighborhood testimony, aldermanic testimony, 15 police testimony and the items I mentioned in the 16 police report, I'd like to move for nonrenewal of 17 both licenses. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Motion by Alderman Kovac 19 is to recommend nonrenewal of the Class B Tavern 20 and Tavern Dance Licenses relating to the 21 testimony provided by the one neighbor, Ms. 22 Kaufmann, as well as Items 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25. 23 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And testimony of the 24 alderman and police. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And the police 171 1 department. There really was nothing substantive 2 that Alderman Witkowiak could provide that wasn't 3 hearsay. 4 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Well, sure, what the 5 police provided wasn't hearsay. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: But the additional 7 testimony that was provided by the members of the 8 police department present. 9 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Your rationale would be 11 the one neighbor, the police department, as well 12 as all items in the police report, is that 13 correct? 14 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Yes. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. On the motion -- 16 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderwoman Coggs. 18 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Though I know it's 19 not for consideration in this decision, I just 20 want to say something to the applicant. 21 Last year when you came before, as you 22 recall, I was probably one of the ones who leaned 23 towards a more lenient penalty for you. And part 24 of the reasoning was how passionate you were about 25 having listened to us the year before and having 172 1 made necessary adjustments to improve the business 2 and being able to demonstrate that those 3 improvements were made. That was polar opposite 4 from what was demonstrated here today. Here 5 today, we heard not that certain fights didn't 6 occur, but that it lasted only 7 minutes instead 7 of 20 minutes; not that police didn't have to come 8 and services be used, but that your security 9 helped them; and not that crowds weren't out 10 there, but the crowds were actually your security. 11 There are those who would think that the necessity 12 for 16 security guards is a bit excessive, and if 13 it gets that bad, maybe -- why should a place be 14 open at all? I'm not saying that's what I think, 15 I'm just saying a reasonable person can think 16 that. 17 And then, you know, as a neighbor comes 18 and cries on the mic and is telling you how she 19 feels, it's so critically important for businesses 20 and neighbors to coexist, because long after you 21 leave, people live there; before you got there, 22 people lived there. And it's not that people 23 don't have a right to do business, but you have to 24 coexist with neighbors. And whether you agree or 25 disagree with neighbors, to be respectful to 173 1 listen to those concerns and attempt to address 2 them is so critical for the business' success and 3 for the quality of life for those neighbors. And 4 what was demonstrated today in front of our eyes 5 was just -- even the whole demonstration about 6 what's impossible and they can't go down that 7 street, and that can't happen -- we're not 8 psychic, I mean, you don't -- just to even assert 9 that it's an impossibility to do this, or this 10 couldn't have happened because of X, Y and Z, and 11 then in time and turn and try to demonstrate, 12 yeah, it could have happened. It's great that you 13 attempt for that not to happen. That's fine. But 14 don't lead with "that couldn't have happened" as 15 if instead of addressing the concern, you want to 16 make the person seem like a liar. I have much 17 more respect for those who come before us with a 18 plan of action to address the concerns of the 19 neighbors, to address the concerns of police and 20 to address the issues that they even admit do 21 occur than I do for people who come and do a song 22 and dance and a game and a circus and try to act 23 like that's why they shouldn't be held 24 accountable. That is extremely disturbing to me. 25 We sit through these meetings every 174 1 month, and sometimes those of us aldermen that 2 have problem establishments, you hope and wish 3 their neighbors come. And then those people 4 watching this on TV who might have saw what 5 happened here today, it's a reason some people 6 don't come. 7 All the businesses have to do is work 8 with the neighbors. And whatever happens with 9 this license, if by some chance it is allowed 10 continue to exist, I would hope that you do that 11 instead of coming with the whole argument as to 12 why she's lying or why this or why that. It's 13 obviously issues, whether it's 7 minutes or 20 14 minutes; whether it's $3,000 of police services or 15 $1,000 of police services, the calls are still 16 there, the necessity is still there. Work with 17 the people you have to exist around. This song 18 and dance, it's so unnecessary if actual work was 19 being done to improve these things. 20 And so those are all of the things I'm 21 thinking about as I think about whether to 22 support, or not, the motion being made by my 23 colleague. But I just had to say that. Because 24 I'm -- from last year with the whole plan, and 25 "I'm doing this, I'm doing that," to this? I'm 175 1 extremely disappointed. 2 Thank you. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Is there any other 4 discussion on the motion? No discussion on the 5 motion. 6 Just my brief discussion on the motion, 7 and this will surprise people as well too, because 8 I don't think they usually think of this body in 9 this way; I won't support the motion. And among 10 other things, I won't expound necessarily on even 11 the issue of duration. I think that we -- if 12 people understand the proper use of this body, 13 this body is functionally supposed to serve as a 14 fact-finding body. And I've indicated, even 15 during the course of, I sort of was jotting notes 16 about my personal desire on a couple pieces of 17 items in the police report that I didn't think 18 should be made part of the record. And as such, 19 as a fact-finding body, it is not only the motion 20 of a duration of time if there is a penalty or a 21 nonrenewal if there is a chosen sanction, but it 22 is the so-called facts that should render that 23 decision that are part of this body because that 24 is what actually is forwarded to the Common 25 Council and which Common Council should make its 176 1 decision ultimately on whether to sanction this 2 license and to what point it should be sanctioned. 3 If you yourself don't agree with all of the 4 points, all of the items on the police report is 5 valid, that is a legitimate reason not to support 6 that. I cannot make an assumption that all of 7 those points of evidence should be included. I 8 don't agree with that portion of the assumption 9 that was made in including this. And for that 10 reason alone, I will say at this point, I will not 11 support the motion. So I just want to state that 12 for the record. It is not my attempt to pass the 13 buck. I literally was scrawling in here and 14 saying, cannot use one item, another item. So I 15 just, I don't believe, given that you can't weigh 16 all of that evidence to make that assumption of 17 saying, if you include all of that evidence, you 18 therefore renew, that is the motion that we as a 19 body make, a making body, should vote on, so. 20 MR. SALVO: Can I say one thing? 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No, we're in committee 22 here. 23 All right. I will ask again, any other 24 discussion? If not, I will reiterate again the 25 motion. The motion by Alderman Kovac is to 177 1 recommend nonrenewal of the Class B Tavern and 2 Tavern Dance Licenses, and it is based upon Items 3 21 through 25 in the police report as well as the 4 additional neighborhood testimony provided by the 5 one neighbor in addition to the subsequent 6 testimony that was provided by one police 7 lieutenant and two other officers here. 8 Can we take a roll call vote on that? 9 THE CLERK: Alderman Kovac. 10 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Aye. 11 THE CLERK: Alderman Zielinski. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Aye. 13 THE CLERK: Alderman Hamilton. 14 ALDERMAN HAMILTON: Aye. 15 THE CLERK: Alderwoman Coggs. 16 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: No. 17 THE CLERK: Mr. Chair. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No. 19 So the motion will prevail on a 3 to 2 20 vote. 21 Mr. Stephens. 22 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: The Committee will 23 be doing a report of its findings of facts and 24 conclusions of law recommending to the Milwaukee 25 Common Council that your licenses be non-renewed. 178 1 You will receive a copy of that report. You will 2 have the opportunity to file written exceptions to 3 the report. If you do, they must be received by 4 the city clerk's office by 4:45 p.m. on June 30, 5 2011. If you submit written objections, then you 6 also have the opportunity to appear before the 7 Milwaukee Common Council when it considers this 8 matter on July 6, 2011, in the Common Council 9 chambers of this building located on the same 10 floor you are on now but at the other end. 11 Please be advised that this report is a 12 recommendation to the full Common Council. The 13 Common Council makes the final decision whether or 14 not your licenses will be renewed, renewed with a 15 suspension between 10 and 90 days, or non-renewed. 16 Do you understand that, sir? 17 MR. SALVO: Yes. 18 MR. HALBROOKS: No, we do not agree with 19 that. 20 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Halbrooks, will 21 you accept service on behalf of your client? 22 MR. HALBROOKS: Mr. Lerner, at the 23 office. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Lerner will? 25 MR. LERNER: Yeah. 179 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 2 (Whereupon the proceedings concluded.) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 180 1 STATE OF WISCONSIN ) ) SS: 2 COUNTY OF WALWORTH ) 3 4 5 I, KAREN RENEE, Court Reporter and 6 Notary Public in and for the State of Wisconsin, do 7 hereby certify that the above hearing of the LICENSES 8 COMMITTEE was recorded by me on June 21, 2011, and 9 reduced to writing under my personal direction. 10 I further certify that I am not a 11 relative or employee or attorney or counsel of any of 12 the parties, or a relative or employee of such attorney 13 or counsel, or financially interested directly or 14 indirectly in this action. 15 In witness whereof I have hereunder set 16 my hand and affixed my seal of office at Burlington, 17 Wisconsin, this 30th day of June, 2011. 18 19 ___________________________ 20 Karen Renee Court Reporter and Notary Public 21 In and for the State of Wisconsin 22 23 My Commission Expires: March 11, 2012. 24 25