1 CITY OF MILWAUKEE LICENSES COMMITTEE * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * In the Matter of: Competitive Adventures, LLC Class B Tavern and Tavern Dance and Video Game Center License CHRISTINA ELLIOT, "Jersey's Pub" 4014-4024 South Howell Avenue * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Proceedings had and testimony given in the above-entitled matter before the LICENSES COMMITTEE CITY OF MILWAUKEE on the 7th day of December, 2010. 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 ARENA LAW OFFICES, LLC, by MR. ANDREW P. ARENA, 3 1110 North Old World Third Street, Suite 515, Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53203, 4 appeared on behalf of Jersey's Pub. 5 * * * * * 6 I N D E X 7 8 Testimony Provided By: Page 9 Ms. Murphy........................................ 33 Ms. Wagner........................................ 39 10 Ms. Atkins........................................ 77 Mr. Murphy........................................ 92 11 Ms. Ethridge...................................... 115 Ms. Wagner........................................ 123 12 Officer Kirkvold.................................. 135 Captain Young..................................... 166 13 Officer Maduscha.................................. 169 Officer Conrad.................................... 181 14 Ms. Gaitens....................................... 188 15 16 17 Items Made Part Of The Official Record: Page 18 Motion To Recuse And Remove Provided By Mr. Arena. 19 Tape Provided By Alderman Zielinski............... 112 19 Exhibit 10........................................ 123 Disc Provided By Mr. Arena........................ 132 20 Dispatch Reports By Mr. Arena..................... 134 21 * * * * * 22 23 24 25 3 1 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: On the 2:00 agenda, we 3 have Christina Elliot, agent for Competitive 4 Adventures, LLC, Class B Tavern and Tavern Dance 5 and Video Game Center License renewal application 6 as agent for Jersey's Sports Pub and Grill at 4014 7 through 24 South Howell Avenue. 8 MR. ARENA: Good afternoon. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Good afternoon, 10 Mr. Arena. If you could officially state your 11 appearance, please, for the record? 12 MR. ARENA: Yes. Thank you, 13 Mr. Chairman. The applicant, Christina Elliot, 14 appears in person with counsel, Andrew P. Arena. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. And we have 16 a number of individuals here. At this point, I 17 will call a contested hearing over this matter. 18 What I will ask is, if there are individuals who 19 are present either by subpoena or of those who ar 20 here voluntarily who desire to present testimony 21 to the Committee, if you would raise your right 22 hands at this point, including our applicant, and 23 we will swear everyone in, who may provide -- Ms. 24 Elliot, you as well. 25 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 4 1 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 2 Wisconsin that the testimony you are about to give 3 is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 4 truth? 5 ALL: Yes. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: For our applicant at 7 this time, I will ask you if you acknowledge 8 receiving notice of today's meeting with the 9 possibility that the application could be denied. 10 I'm going to, if you give me a moment, I will read 11 this to make certain that it's all reflected in 12 the record, "That there is a possibility of denial 13 based on the attached police report that should 14 have been part of your notice as well as an 15 objection to the renewal of the license based on 16 the fact that the applicant does not personally 17 operate the premise and no Class B manager's 18 license was held by anyone at this location; no 19 person may allow another to use the license or 20 permit to sell alcoholic beverages under Wisconsin 21 Statute 125.322(M) and 125.682(M); that the 22 Milwaukee Code and Ordinance 90-9 relating to 23 collusive agreement is prohibited; any person 24 licensed to sell intoxicating liquor or fermented 25 malt beverages in the City who shall permit any 5 1 other person to conduct such intoxicating liquor 2 or fermented malt beverage business under such a 3 license or the name of said license or who shall 4 connive, collude or agree with any other person to 5 enable such a person to conduct any such business 6 under said license or in the name of such licensee 7 and any person who shall conduct any premise or 8 place for the sale of intoxicated liquor or 9 fermented malt beverages within the City under a 10 license issued to another person or in the name of 11 such person or who shall connive, collude or agree 12 to any licensee to enable such a person to conduct 13 such a business in the name or under such license 14 of the licensee shall be subject to the penalty in 15 section 90-40. The license must be held by an 16 actual operator who is driving profits. The 17 licensee must have control, at least, or ownership 18 of the premise, and all licenses and permits in 19 connection with the sale of alcoholic beverages 20 must be held by the licensee." In addition to 21 that, there is the possible denial based on an 22 assortment of additional neighborhood objections. 23 Do you acknowledge receiving that notice? 24 MS. ELLIOT: Yes, sir, I do. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, thank you. 6 1 This is a renewal, we should have no 2 holds. Ms. Grill, is that correct? 3 MS. GRILL: There are no holds. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sergeant, we'll go to 5 you for the police report, please. 6 SGT. MACGILLIS: Just three items. I'll 7 start with Item 5: On 10/23/2009, the applicant 8 was cited at 3701 South 27th Street in the City of 9 Milwaukee for retail theft. Charge of retail 10 theft. Due for further proceedings on 12/28/2010, 11 8:30 a.m., Muni Court Branch 2. 12 Item 6: On 7/15/2010 at 9:04 p.m., 13 Milwaukee police responded to trouble with a 14 subject complaint at 4024 South Howell Avenue, 15 Jersey's Spirits Pub and Grill. The caller stated 16 the business was using the patio connected to the 17 bar after the license for its use had been 18 suspended. After completing an investigation, the 19 officer wrote the applicant a citation for 20 separate license required. The charge of separate 21 license per location for alcohol sale required. 22 The finding dismissed without prejudice. The date 23 of that was 8/24/2010. 24 Item 7: On 7/28/2010, Sergeant 25 MacGillis of the license investigation unit 7 1 received a series of e-mails from the City of 2 Milwaukee Licenses Division indicating that the 3 applicant, Christina Elliot, had been in their 4 office and made statements indicating that she no 5 longer had a hand in running the business Jersey's 6 Sports Pub and Grill. Further, Mrs. Elliot, 7 correction, Ms. Elliot indicated the business was 8 being run by her former fiance', Rodney Las. 9 Sergeant MacGillis interviewed Ms. Elliot on 10 9/1/2010 at 10:15 a.m. At that time, she 11 indicated her comments must have been misconstrued 12 and that she is the sole operator of the business. 13 This investigation revealed no violations. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 15 Were there any questions or comments 16 that you have relating to any of the items in the 17 police report? 18 MR. ARENA: Yeah, I have a big 19 objection, and it's a big comment because we did 20 not receive that police report with the notice of 21 this meeting. We have the Committee's meeting 22 notice with 15 exhibits attached to it, none of 23 which are any of the items that were just 24 discussed. I think there is a big problem with 25 that. But I do have some specific questions on 8 1 some of those items. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Let me first, if I may, 3 Mr. Arena. 4 Ms. Grill, do you have copies of what 5 is -- 6 MS. GRILL: Our copies indicate that 7 that was between the notice and then those 15 8 exhibits, the police report. 9 MR. ARENA: I have no police report 10 here. And I can submit this to you. 11 And, you know, in reality, all of those 12 things that he just read about have been 13 dismissed. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I mean, there's two 15 issues: one, there is the discussion point you 16 make about dismissals; there is another issue 17 about whether or not proper notice was provided by 18 having attached copies of the police report 19 received by the applicant. 20 MR. ARENA: I think it's important for 21 purposes of the record here that we did not 22 receive a police report with the notice. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Stephens, do you 24 have thoughts on recommendations on how the 25 Committee proceed if that is stipulated by the 9 1 applicant or the applicant's counsel here? 2 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Well, I don't think 3 there is a stipulation. I think Ms. Grill 4 indicated that the notice went out that included a 5 police report. Now, Mr. Arena, the licensee by 6 counsel has stated that they did not receive the 7 police report, and I think the Committee can take 8 if for what it's worth. I mean, from the factual 9 point of view, there are three matters that are 10 listed, and I think you can give it the that 11 weight you deem fit. If they didn't receive it, 12 you have a notice issue, other than what is -- I 13 need to look at the cover letter. 14 MR. ARENA: If you look at the cover 15 letter, it doesn't mention or indicate anything 16 about an attached police report. It talks about 17 neighborhood objections. It -- 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sure, it does. 19 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: It says, "See 20 attached police report." 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: It's the first, the 22 first four words right after the notice, "There is 23 a possibility your application may be denied for 24 the following reasons: See attached police 25 report." 10 1 MR. ARENA: Well, you know -- 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm not saying that the 3 accompanying report came, I'm saying that it was 4 part of the notice, so it is there. 5 MR. ARENA: Well, let's look at those 6 items that he testified to, if I could ask some 7 questions. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, I mean, we'll note 9 for the record then your objection or your claim 10 that you were not adequately provided notice of 11 the official license investigation unit criminal 12 record synopsis report, is that correct? 13 MR. ARENA: That's correct. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. For the 15 record, you can indicate that's your belief then. 16 We'll have the Licenses Division, under its own 17 records, indicate that that was mailed to you as 18 far as I know. Why don't you go ahead and -- 19 MR. ARENA: Well, I think that -- 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- we'll state that 21 officially for the record. I don't know how to, 22 at least, rule on this here. I will notice your 23 objection to that officially for the record if 24 that assists you. Mr. Arena, why don't you go 25 ahead? If under that guise, you still wish to 11 1 raise questions about those three items on the 2 police report, you may go ahead at this point 3 here, Mr. Arena. 4 MR. ARENA: Well, looking at the numbers 5 here, I have another issue is that I have a motion 6 prepared for the alderman of 14th District to be 7 removed and/or recuse himself. If I could file 8 that with the Committee? That is based on an 9 attached factual affidavit, that I believe that 10 the gentleman of the 14th has demonstrated a clear 11 position of prejudgment, a clear position of 12 seeking information and/or requesting certain 13 things be done to create violations and subterfuge 14 here in this matter involving Jersey's. 15 A few of those, the main item of concern 16 is whether or not there is an extension of premise 17 for the deck. It was litigated in municipal court 18 as two of the items that Sergeant MacGillis had 19 talked about. That -- 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Good ahead. 21 MR. ARENA: That really was an issue to 22 create this idea that there was a willingness by 23 my client to engage in illegal activity and use 24 the deck, which I argued to the court, Judge Val 25 Hill, that there was a valid legal extension of 12 1 premise, and she agreed with that. 2 All of the cases and all of the issues 3 with that, all of the cases, citations that were 4 issued for that were dismissed. I personally had 5 contact with the alderman of the 14th when that 6 issue was going on, and he was following a line 7 which was deemed to be illogical by the court when 8 it was presented to the court that because 9 somewhere in a BOZA application the word "deck" 10 appeared with volleyball courts that automatically 11 meant that the deck was subject to a special use 12 permit by BOZA. 13 Now, the deck is a legal use in that 14 zoning configuration that is there, which is light 15 business. And there was a legal extension of 16 premises granted by the Common Council for alcohol 17 to be served on that deck. Until that was 18 resolved, I did advise my clients not to use the 19 deck. And they lost pretty much 50 percent of the 20 entire summer of business opportunity with being 21 able to serve food on the deck. That being said, 22 that was resolved, and all of the violations or 23 citations that were written for that were 24 dismissed by the court. I really don't think that 25 it's proper for this Committee to hear evidence 13 1 about those violations. Only that it demonstrates 2 the willingness of what certain people were doing 3 or willing to do to put a legally operated 4 business out of business in the City of Milwaukee. 5 And I believe one of the persons involved in that 6 was the alderman of the 14th. And I direct you to 7 the notice that is attached here, too. There is 8 an e-mail from that alderman of the 14th that 9 discusses that point directly and asks that all 10 possible citations be written and all possible 11 notices of objections to this license be indicated 12 in the file. It's Exhibit 11 of 15 attached to 13 the notice that discusses the alderman's 14 involvement with a neighbor of the premises. Many 15 of these e-mails you'll notice that are attached 16 as exhibits cc the alderman of the 14th. 17 And attached to our motion is an 18 affidavit of Christina Elliot, who met with the 19 alderman of 14th, who -- I was present at that 20 meeting, and it was her interpretation that there 21 was pretty much a prejudgment that had taken 22 place, and she certainly didn't feel that the 23 alderman was going to be unbiased or listen to the 24 evidence. Even though he may make that claim or 25 made that claim then, it seems really unlikely. 14 1 You will note Exhibit 7 of the attachment is a 2 direct e-mail from the alderman of the 14th. He 3 asked that the police report be placed in the file 4 for Jersey's Pub, "I also want to ensure that 5 Jersey's Pub has a noticed meeting with all 6 possible objections for their renewal hearing. 7 When is their license up for renewal?" What he 8 wanted posted was a letter or an e-mail from an 9 officer who has been subpoenaed, and who I believe 10 is here: Mr. Kirkvold, that Mr. Kirkvold did 11 check into these things at the request of a 12 neighbor with, I believe, the knowledge, blessings 13 and request to do so of the alderman, by the 14 alderman of the 14th District. 15 I cite case law. I think the Supreme 16 Court has spoken pretty loudly and clearly, that 17 any hint of any bias that there is prejudgment is 18 enough to have the person removed from the 19 decision making. It doesn't seem that it would be 20 proper due process to have the executioner vote on 21 this matter. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman, I 23 have a question for our city attorney. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead, Alderman 25 Zielinski. 15 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. The sequence 2 of events that were just cited by counsel is a 3 normal process that I go through with all of the 4 liquor licenses in my district. With planet Marky 5 was just here a few minutes ago, I requested that 6 this matter be scheduled, and so forth. If I get 7 a complaint from a constituent and they want me to 8 follow up on it, I follow up on it. So my 9 question is, to go through the sequence of events 10 as advanced by the counsel here, and I'll defer to 11 the judgment of our city attorney here. 12 With respect to the deck. Jersey's Pub 13 was not using that deck prior to going to court, 14 and they just unilaterally chose to start using 15 the deck. I received a phone call from one of my 16 constituents indicating that she was unaware that 17 they were able to use that deck. So during the 18 normal course of my responsibilities as an 19 alderman of the district, be it this bar or any 20 bar in my district, I believe that I would be 21 remiss in my responsibilities if I didn't follow 22 up on a complaint by my constituents if there is 23 an allegation that there is some sort of illegal 24 activity taking place, and so, I follow through on 25 that request. 16 1 And I do want to remind the Committee 2 that Jersey's Pub voluntarily was not using that, 3 and that there was an order by DNS. And DNS told 4 them specifically they are not supposed to do 5 that. And when I received the phone call from 6 Attorney Arena explaining the reasons why he felt 7 they should be able to use the deck, he said -- I 8 said, "Well, what does our city attorney say?" He 9 says, "Our city attorney agrees with DNS." And I 10 said "Well, I take the position, I support our 11 city attorney here." So I support this, you know, 12 the city attorney's office. 13 And as far as the other things that are 14 mentioned here: citations; complaints, that's 15 just a normal part of the licensing process to 16 request that that be recorded. 17 So if, you know, if the city attorney 18 feels that this information is, you know, suggests 19 that I'm biased; I feel it's fulfilling the 20 responsibilities of my job, I'll go on the other 21 side of the table. I defer to his judgment. 22 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac. 24 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Before he answers that, 25 a bigger question I want to ask for some clarity 17 1 on, a comment that Attorney Arena has made here. 2 He claimed that the Supreme Court was clear that 3 any hint of any bias, there are a couple of "any" 4 there, my understanding is that it's impossible to 5 do your job as an elected official to not come in 6 with bias because you get all kinds of phone calls 7 and contacts, your biased is based on the phone 8 calls and contacts and meetings you have been to. 9 The issue, my understanding is that we can't have 10 already made up our minds. Am I under the wrong 11 impression? 12 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: I would agree with 13 that, Alderman Kovac. I think the standard is 14 that, and it is set forth in Marris v City of 15 Cedarburg, which is a Wisconsin Supreme Court 16 case, which clearly indicates that people in a 17 due-process hearing have a right to have their 18 matter heard by a fair and impartial 19 decision-making body. If any member of this 20 Committee had prejudged the matter, had already 21 decided before the hearing on how they were going 22 to vote, there would clearly be a problem with 23 impartiality. People do not have to -- and Marris 24 in the Supreme Court, I don't have the case in 25 front of me, but there is a discussion by the 18 1 Supreme Court that indicates that decisionmakers 2 may have some opinions and are allowed to their 3 opinions, but clearly any pre-decision on the 4 merits of the case could and should lead one to 5 recuse themselves or be removed from making a 6 decision. 7 So I would not concur that Marris says 8 that any hint of any bias automatically requires 9 recusal. I would agree, however, that if there 10 was a pre-decision on the case, or that a 11 decisionmaker took a position of an advocate for a 12 position, then that should be revisited. And that 13 could, theoretically, be revisited as this 14 Committee hearing goes on. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions, additional 16 questions by Committee? 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I want the attorney 18 to answer my question, because there is some 19 points raised by counsel with his own 20 interpretation on them. I shared my sequence of 21 events with the city attorney, which I feel is the 22 way I handle any bar. Anybody calls up about any 23 bar in my district complaining of any alleged 24 wrongdoing, I follow up: I contact the police 25 department; I make sure that everything is 19 1 included on the reports. And I feel that that is 2 fulfilling my responsibility, and if I didn't do 3 that, I feel I would be remiss. If someone calls 4 up about a bar in my district complaining and I 5 don't call the police and I don't follow up, you 6 know, I mean, I feel like I would be remiss in my 7 responsibility to the district, but -- 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac, at this 9 point, would move to make the motion to recuse and 10 remove provided by Mr. Arena part of our official 11 record in this proceeding. Are there any 12 objections in that motion? Hearing none, so 13 ordered. What I'm going to do is, I'm going to 14 order a two-minute recess here. I'm going to 15 consult with the city attorney, then we'll come 16 back on the record here. 17 (Recess taken.) 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: This is the resumption 19 of the Common Council Licenses Committee. We are 20 on the matter of Christina Elliot, agent for 21 Jersey's Sports Club, and -- Alderman Zielinski. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you, Mr. 23 Chairman. I've decided in the last couple moments 24 that I'm definitely going to very aggressively 25 fighting to make sure this license doesn't get 20 1 renewed. And even if it gets approved by the 2 Committee, I'm going to be very aggressive in the 3 full Council. So I'm going to be a very active 4 advocate. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So you're recusing 6 yourself then? 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Yes, I am. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Mr. Arena, 9 at this time, noting your objection to -- 10 MR. ARENA: Big shot. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: What was that? 12 What did you say? Big shot, thank you. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Very good. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Can we keep this here 16 within reasonable dictates here of a hearing? 17 You've noted your objection indicating 18 that your belief is that you did not receive the 19 police report. Notwithstanding that at this 20 point, I will just ask you if you have any 21 questions or comments relating to Items 5 through 22 7? 23 MR. ARENA: Yes, I do. 24 Sergeant MacGillis, I believe Item 5 25 involved a municipal citation, correct? 21 1 SGT. MACGILLIS: That's correct, yes, 2 sir. 3 MR. ARENA: Are you aware of the 4 disposition of that municipal citation? 5 SGT. MACGILLIS: No, I am not. What I 6 have here, as we discussed, due for further 7 proceedings 12/28/2010, 8:30 a.m. Municipal Court 8 Branch 2. 9 MR. ARENA: And the subsequent matter, 10 that matter has been dismissed, correct, Item No. 11 6, I believe? 12 SGT. MACGILLIS: Item 6, yes, that is 13 correct. 14 MR. ARENA: And Item 6 involved what? 15 SGT. MACGILLIS: A separate license per 16 location for alcohol sale. It had to do with the, 17 what was discussed earlier, the BOZA, Board of 18 Zoning Appeals, situation pertaining to the use of 19 the patio. And hence, the date of that was July 20 15th, and subsequently, the citation was 21 dismissed. 22 MR. ARENA: And the following item, that 23 was also dismissed? 24 SGT. MACGILLIS: Item 7 -- 25 MR. ARENA: Yes. 22 1 SGT. MACGILLIS: -- wasn't anything of 2 dismissal. However, it was a matter of 3 investigation that revealed no violations. I 4 don't know what you'd like, Counselor. Would you 5 like me to reread it or just summarize it again? 6 MR. ARENA: No, but you had spoken to 7 Christina Elliot? 8 SGT. MACGILLIS: That is correct. 9 MR. ARENA: And you decided not to issue 10 any citations? 11 SGT. MACGILLIS: No, because there was 12 no proof of any collusive agreement. I went to 13 her, spoke to her directly, to the licensee, and 14 that's the answer I received from her. And prior 15 to that, I discussed this matter with two city 16 attorneys, one unfortunately -- I shouldn't say 17 unfortunately, one is retired now, but based on 18 their advice and their counsel, that's the 19 conclusion that my investigation came to. 20 MR. ARENA: Did you speak to anybody 21 else about that inquiry? 22 SGT. MACGILLIS: Two city attorneys, I 23 e-mailed a district captain. However, with the 24 two city attorneys -- I spoke to you also, you 25 were present when we discussed the matter; Ms. 23 1 Elliot was present when we discussed the matter. 2 There may have been some correspondence with the 3 Licenses Division pertaining to the series of 4 e-mails that were shotgunned out pertaining to 5 this discussion. I did not discuss this matter 6 with any of the clerks in the Licenses Division 7 office that were the original recipients of the 8 statements that Ms. Elliot stated, what she said. 9 I got those, I believe, from Ms. Grill or from 10 Richard Pfaff, and their consolidation or 11 summarization of the events, was good enough for 12 me in this regard. 13 MR. ARENA: And that summarization, 14 based on their interpretation of something, you 15 decided to investigate? 16 SGT. MACGILLIS: Well, yes, I did. They 17 had concerns. And because of that, based on the 18 statement -- and just let me recap, she went into 19 the Licenses Division Office of the City of 20 Milwaukee, and I'm not a -- here is what I 21 investigated: "She went in and stated she no 22 longer had a hand in running the business and that 23 it was being run by her former fiance', Rodney 24 Las." That's what I got dropped in my lap. So I 25 asked her about those questions, and she said she 24 1 was misconstrued. I don't want to go down a path 2 of anything, maybe Ms. Elliot was having a bad 3 day, maybe she was misconstrued, but that is the 4 answer that I received from her, that's what I put 5 on paper. 6 MR. ARENA: Thank you. 7 SGT. MACGILLIS: You're welcome. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Zielinski. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay, so the 11 standard that you used to determine whether or not 12 there is a violation is based on what she tells 13 you, if she says, "Yes, I said those things, yes, 14 I don't operate it," you would have found that to 15 be, you know, something that we should move 16 forward with. However, if she indicates or 17 response in a way that she did, where she denies 18 everything, that's the standard, you just go with 19 that? 20 SGT. MACGILLIS: No, Alderman. What she 21 said -- she didn't deny saying things, okay? She 22 said she was misconstrued, and perhaps she was; 23 perhaps she wasn't. I had to do something. So I 24 figured I'd ask her, and that's the answer I 25 received. 25 1 Now, in my discussions with one city 2 attorney, they related that the collusion 3 ordinance, it's 90-9, it is very difficult to 4 prove. And it's only a $350 citation, and it is a 5 muni citation. I don't know what that, where it's 6 covered in State Statute 125, but the operative 7 words are "permit, connive, collude or agree," and 8 that is a very fine line that's probably going to 9 take somebody to get into a tavern and/or match 10 records from a vendor. Sometimes vendors are 11 cooperative; sometimes they aren't. They are 12 cooperative when certain bills aren't being paid, 13 and that's when they will call us or they'll call 14 the district or they'll call the IRS or they'll 15 call a city attorney. Mr. Schrimpf knew a lot of 16 people in town. However, how do you differentiate 17 between -- that hard nut to crack, because how do 18 you differentiate between a helper and an aide and 19 somebody running a tavern? It's a difficult 20 thing. And I'll use my own example: I spent 21 about 24 years in the military, and I was a staff 22 officer. And there were times where all we'd do 23 is do studies and make recommendations and grind 24 paper into little bits, bits of information for 25 the commander. Now, how do you differentiate -- 26 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 2 SGT. MACGILLIS: Do you understand what 3 I'm saying? 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No, I appreciate 5 your effort to try and be helpful, but we've got a 6 long way to go. And I'll be speaking with the 7 city attorney about the standard for this matter. 8 Let me ask you another question. How 9 long did it take for you to get in touch with the 10 licensee? 11 SGT. MACGILLIS: About probably, maybe 12 20 days. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: 20 days. 14 SGT. MACGILLIS: Yes, but here is why: 15 I was on vacation for ten of those days. I went 16 to the tavern with at least one officer, left a 17 referral with the owner. And Ms. Elliot tried to 18 call me twice. Because my office staff is very 19 efficient, they left notes. However, then I was 20 gone for ten days. So we were like ships in the 21 night, and I finally was able to -- 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Did you call her 23 before you went down there in person? 24 SGT. MACGILLIS: No, I didn't one time. 25 I even stopped by her house too. I think I left a 27 1 referral in her mailbox. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. So how many 3 times did you stop by before you got a response? 4 SGT. MACGILLIS: Probably -- 5 MR. ARENA: Mr. Chairman, I have to 6 object. This question is irrelevant. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm just going to let 8 him finish. 9 And after that, Alderman, I'm going to 10 pull out the carpet under this here and look for 11 something else. 12 I just want to say, Sergeant MacGillis 13 is not under indictment here. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No, I understand. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I mean, the case is the 16 case of the proof is the proof, and, you know, how 17 many times or quickly or whether he talked with 18 her 10 minutes, 15 minutes, I don't know -- 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay, that's fine. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The department's 21 determination was the department's determination 22 here. I mean, he investigated it. There was no 23 determination made to -- 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 25 SGT. MACGILLIS: Did you want that last 28 1 question answered? 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: The next question 4 is for the city attorney. With respect to 90-9 5 and the standard to prove a violation of 90-9, if 6 you have firsthand testimony from two separate 7 witnesses and other corroborating and 8 circumstantial evidence, is that sufficient even 9 though the licensee denies, you know, being 10 understood correctly? 11 MR. ARENA: Mr. Chairman, I -- 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Let him finish the 13 question. 14 MR. ARENA: He's asking a question of 15 the city attorney, and I don't know that it's 16 proper since he has come to this side of the 17 table. I certainly don't ask questions of the 18 city attorney. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I think it's important 20 for clarification, given the fact that it is 21 actually cited in the notice, for the Committee to 22 have the best understanding possible as to whether 23 or not this is something that can be brought 24 forward and duly considered, so. I will note your 25 objection, and we'll hear from Mr. Stephens on 29 1 that. 2 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: This Committee 3 clearly can take evidence today about an 4 allegation that there is a collusive agreement. 5 That can come in from documents, it can come from 6 eyewitness testimony, it may come from the 7 licensee herself. This is what, based on the 8 notice provided the licensee, that's what seems 9 like what we're going to be hearing today. And 10 ultimately, the Committee will be making the 11 decision whether adequate evidence is brought. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you, that's 13 what I wanted to point out. Thank you for the 14 clarification, Attorney. 15 Mr. Chairman, I just want to state for 16 the record, I don't know if now is the appropriate 17 time or later, but we have two people in the 18 Licensing Division who have had direct contact 19 with the licensee, and they are here to provide 20 testimony and answer questions; not just one 21 individual that was misconstrued, but apparently 22 two individuals from our Licensing Division 23 apparently were misconstrued. So, again, I don't 24 know if the chairman of the Committee wants to 25 hear that now, or if he wants to hear it later, 30 1 but I wanted to put it out there that we're ready. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We'll get to that. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: That's all. 4 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderwoman Coggs. 6 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Not to belabor the 7 point, but I do have a question of Sergeant 8 MacGillis. 9 In the investigation for the collusion, 10 was there any effort made to talk to the person 11 that the licensee is accused of being in collusion 12 with? 13 SGT. MACGILLIS: Yes, I did. I spoke to 14 Mr. Las if he is the subject of this. And he 15 related he is not, he does not have a B Manager 16 License and that it's Christina's tavern. 17 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. All right. Have 19 you raised all of the questions that you have, 20 Mr. Arena, regarding the police report? 21 MR. ARENA: Yes, thank you, 22 Mr. Chairman. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. As I indicated 24 here, I have called a contested hearing in this 25 matter. What that dictates is that each side 31 1 would be allotted a timeframe of 30 minutes. We 2 will use a timer for those purposes. 3 Mr. Arena, what I do want to indicate is 4 that even your desire, because you have utilized 5 the chair here to have me subpoena witnesses, your 6 desire to raise questions on that side will be 7 utilized on your time then, just so you are aware 8 of that, okay? 9 MR. ARENA: Could you clarify that so 10 I'm clear? 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Because if you desire to 12 call forward witnesses that you have subpoenaed, 13 that would be utilized toward the 30 minutes on 14 your side, okay? 15 It is the practice of this Committee to 16 hear from individuals who are in objection to the 17 license first. Of those individuals who are in 18 the room, and we did swear all persons in, who 19 wish to testify, may I see a show of hands of 20 individuals that are here in objection to the 21 license? Three individuals. 22 What we will do at this time, we will 23 ask that those individuals come forward and take 24 seats in the front row here. We will elicit your 25 testimony first. When you do have an opportunity, 32 1 we will need your name and your home address for 2 the record. If there is any question regarding 3 the spelling of your name, if it is something 4 short of Davis or Johnson that's very obvious, if 5 you could please spell that for our court reporter 6 and for our record. What we will do is, when we 7 do hear from you, and you provide your name and 8 address, you will provide your testimony. 9 Once you've provided your testimony, I 10 will ask you to remain present there for the time 11 being while we have the opportunity to hear 12 questions first from Committee and potentially 13 from the other side of the table. Once all of 14 those questions are completed, I will dismiss you 15 and I will release you. Until that point happens, 16 however, please remain where you've provided your 17 testimony. 18 What we will do then at this time here 19 is, we would ask that all three individuals take 20 rows in the front seat. If you are unable to 21 utilize the standing microphone, physically you 22 need to sit down, please indicate that and take a 23 seat, and we will allow you to sit otherwise. 24 What we will do is, we will hear from 25 those individuals first. So any one of the three 33 1 of you who want to come forward and take the 2 standing microphone. 3 Go ahead. Your name and address, 4 please, for the record, please. 5 MS. MURPHY: My name is Kelly Murphy. 6 M-U-R-P-H-Y, address is 4021 South Burrell Street. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, and your 8 testimony, ma'am. 9 MS. MURPHY: I am in objection to 10 Jersey's Pub. I've been in front of this 11 Committee several times regarding this particular 12 establishment. There are several problems with 13 this establishment, and the history has just been 14 repeating itself. 15 Last year, I believe in November, the 16 Committee had issued a 45-day suspension for this 17 bar, and when they were given their citation for 18 the deck, and the use from BOZA, not to be able to 19 use the deck for volleyball or patrons, it gave 20 peace to our neighborhood. 21 MR. ARENA: Mr. Chairman, I really have 22 to object to that because that citation has been 23 discussed. It was found by a court of law that 24 there was no violation, and she was not guilty. 25 So it's not proper to be discussing this. 34 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I guess I want to see 2 where she's going with this here first, Mr. Arena. 3 Why don't you continue? 4 MS. MURPHY: Basically, I was just 5 trying to state that when these particular, when 6 this particular establishment wasn't able to 7 utilize their deck or their volleyball court and 8 they were cited for noise, or the police were 9 there, and when they were shut down for the 45 10 days, it gave a peace to our neighborhood. All of 11 these things that we have brought before this 12 Committee in the past several times were 13 diminished because of that fact. 14 I believe, and strongly believe, that 15 this establishment creates a hostility for our 16 neighborhood. It does not allow peace in our 17 neighborhood. The patrons that visit this bar 18 continue to raise havoc on our neighborhood: we 19 cannot sleep; we cannot have our windows open in 20 the summer; we cannot enjoy our property; we 21 cannot have our children outside in lieu of them 22 hearing all sorts of profanity; we are kept up for 23 hours and hours of the night; we are awakened, 24 woken up in the middle of the night. And it seems 25 as though every single time we have come up in 35 1 front of this Committee, and every time there has 2 been statements from the Committee to the bar 3 owner that these things need to try to change, 4 nothing is done. It's a continuous thing. The 5 history is repeating itself other than when you 6 gave that 45-day suspension, other than when they 7 were cited and were unable to use the volleyball 8 court. 9 I live directly behind this bar. This 10 affects me directly. It affects my husband. It 11 affects my family. It affects my life. It is 12 very, very disturbing. And again, I have said 13 these things several times in front of this 14 Committee. 15 Again, Mr. Las has come to my home. He 16 has presented himself in front of me. He has 17 stated that he is the bar manager and operator. 18 At one point, when he first came to my home and 19 introduced himself, he said he was the new owner 20 of the bar. I have never met Ms. Elliot. I have 21 only seen Ms. Elliot one time previous to today 22 and that was at the last year's hearing in 23 November. 24 I do not understand how this can 25 continue. I don't understand how this Committee 36 1 can allow this particular establishment to 2 continue to do this to our neighborhood, a 3 neighborhood where we live, a neighborhood where 4 we pay taxes. We live there; we have the right to 5 enjoy our property. We have the right not to feel 6 like prisoners in our own home. And I feel as 7 though if you allow this to continue, if you allow 8 this license to go through, these particular 9 things are going to continue and maybe get worse. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 11 Questions by Committee? 12 Ms. Murphy, you stated that you had 13 these massive problems except for when there was a 14 45-day suspension and also when they didn't have 15 the ability to utilize the volleyball court and 16 the deck? 17 MS. MURPHY: That is correct. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are they, were they back 19 on the deck after they went to court? 20 MS. MURPHY: Yes, sir. They had used 21 the deck a couple of times. I had called the 22 police department, I had made my complaint. They 23 had investigated, from my understanding. I have 24 also -- I was told by the police department to 25 contact my alderman to let him know of my 37 1 feelings, to let him know what I was experiencing. 2 And I, as well, contacted Alderman Tony Zielinski 3 and told him what was going on, and he said that 4 he would look into the matter. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Ms. Grill, do they have 6 an extension of premise? 7 MS. GRILL: I was just conferring. We 8 had talked to Tom Westall, yes, they do have the 9 extension at this time. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: At this time. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: To utilize the deck? 12 MS. GRILL: I believe so, yes. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: At this time. 14 MS. GRILL: Correct, I didn't review the 15 file. 16 MR. ARENA: What does that "this time" 17 mean? Either they do or they don't; they do. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Well, they do now. 19 MR. ARENA: Well, I mean, there is no 20 reason for this editorial interrupting by -- 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You know what, and the 22 problem is, I think we have two individuals who 23 don't like each other: yourself and the alderman 24 here. And you both interrupt each other at my 25 expense and the Committee's expense. Period. 38 1 Both of you. Both of you. 2 MR. ARENA: I'm only here to -- 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Both of you. 4 MR. ARENA: -- represent my client so she 5 is getting due process. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: That may be. That may 7 be, but I'll speak editorially for the Committee 8 and say that we get it both ways. And I would ask 9 for decorum from both of you, please. 10 So currently, yes, they have an 11 extension of premise? 12 MS. GRILL: Yes. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Does it only include the 14 deck? Does it include any other portion of the 15 yard other than the deck? 16 MS. GRILL: I believe the volleyball 17 court is part of that. I'd have to review the 18 file. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Janice, why don't you 20 come forward here. We may get you further here, 21 but I'll just get you for clarification. Do you 22 want to just grab a seat right here? We'll swear 23 you in right now. 24 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 25 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 39 1 Wisconsin that the testimony you are about to give 2 will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but 3 the truth? 4 MS. WAGNER: Yes, I do. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Why don't you give us 6 your name and your position here in the Licenses 7 Division here? 8 MS. WAGNER: Janice Wagner, W-A-G-N-E-R, 9 and I am the license coordinator in the Licenses 10 Division. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: What is your answer to 12 that question? 13 MS. WAGNER: I spoke to Tom Westall with 14 Neighborhood Services this morning. There is a 15 hold on the volleyball court for the Board of 16 Zoning Appeals and an occupancy permit. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: For the volleyball 18 court? 19 MS. WAGNER: The volleyball court, yes. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So then I would surmise 21 then that the deck would still be, would have an 22 occupancy then? 23 MS. WAGNER: Yes, I believe there was 24 some issue as to what was included with the deck, 25 and it does not include the ramp. That was an 40 1 issue that was discussed. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. That absolutely 3 amazes me. I mean, that is my editorial. Because 4 I don't know how somebody could be on a deck, but, 5 "Hey, if you're disabled, don't worry about it. 6 Try to fall off your chair and climb up it." I 7 mean, holy cow, criminies. I'll take that as a 8 yes, that somebody, they have occupancy for the 9 deck. 10 I mean, I don't think the city 11 attorney's office would probably smile on the 12 Department of Neighborhood Services and say they 13 can occupy the deck, but, man, if somebody wants 14 to build a ramp, or, you know, that you have to 15 cordon off, prevent the ramp from being used. 16 That sounds just absolutely moronic. I would 17 strongly advise DNS to reconsider their take on 18 that or call the city attorney's office for 19 assistance and talk to whoever the specialist for 20 ADA is. 21 Yeah, go ahead. 22 MS. WAGNER: Can I just comment that the 23 issue, when I spoke with Neighborhood Services, 24 was that they had actual tables and people sitting 25 on the ramp, which is the walkway into the tavern. 41 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Whatever DNS says here. 2 MS. WAGNER: And if I could -- 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't -- yeah, we'll 4 allow DNS to deal with that issue, but I'm just 5 saying. 6 MS. WAGNER: When -- okay. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I mean, occupancy is 8 needed for even use, it just is. And if you grant 9 an occupancy for a deck but you don't allow the 10 access to that deck to persons who are disabled, I 11 believe you probably would be in violation of 12 federal Americans with Disabilities Act law. 13 That's just my guess as a non-practicing attorney. 14 I just try to use common sense. 15 Anyway, I'll garner the answer to that 16 is, they have access to the deck. All right. 17 Thank you. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I -- 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I wasn't finished, 20 Alderman Zielinski. Did you have any more that 21 you wanted to answer to that? 22 MS. WAGNER: I guess I just want to 23 clarify that the issue was they're not licensed to 24 have alcohol on that ramp area. And the neighbors 25 were complaining that people were sitting on the 42 1 ramp area with drinks. And when the licensee came 2 into our office, she actually wanted to do a 3 permanent extension so people could sit on that 4 ramp area with their drinks. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't -- my, I'm 6 trying to picture in my mind, on the ramp. I 7 don't know where you sit on that ramp. I don't 8 see seats there. 9 MS. ELLIOT: You can't, I was -- 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead, Ms. Elliot. 11 MS. ELLIOT: I was afraid of people 12 using the ramp, accessing the major part of the 13 deck area with a beverage in their hand and being 14 seen, you know, crossing over. I was trying to 15 prevent any further tickets. That's what I was -- 16 that's the inquiry that I had made. But I didn't 17 understand why it needed -- and because of the 18 smoking ban, with people going outside to have 19 their cigarettes, I was just trying to prevent -- 20 and I didn't understand how when the deck is all 21 built together, the wood is all nailed in, like, 22 one section, how it was considered to be two 23 separate pieces either. I was trying to have it 24 clarified, and I was trying to avoid any further 25 problems, and that's why I inquired. 43 1 But, no, there were never tables, there 2 is no room for tables. Was there a chair next to 3 the front door? Yes. But that was to open up, 4 you know, the door in the summertime when people 5 are coming outside to have their cigarettes, you 6 know, that was it. And I have several employees 7 here today that can also testify to that. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chair, I have a 9 question of Ms. Wagner for clarification. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead, Alderman. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Ms. Wagner, prior 12 to the court hearing in municipal court of two or 13 so months ago, they were not able to use the deck, 14 is that correct? 15 MS. WAGNER: Correct. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. And you 17 mentioned earlier, I want to make sure I heard you 18 correctly, you said that you received complaints, 19 phone call complaints about people bringing 20 alcohol on the deck -- 21 MS. WAGNER: Correct. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: -- in violation of 23 the ordinance. Thank you. That's all. 24 MS. MURPHY: If I may, Mr. Chairman. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Hold on, I'm sorry. I 44 1 will give you an opportunity, ma'am, one moment 2 here. 3 If they're licensed and they're given 4 the deck as an extension of premise, then someone 5 can have alcohol beverages out on that deck. 6 Ms. Grill, is that not correct? 7 MS. GRILL: That is what it means to 8 have it part of your license, yes. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Right. That is an 10 extension of premise. 11 MS. ELLIOT: That's why I didn't need to 12 file. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I understand. 14 So I mean, if there was an error on the 15 part of DNS, that is one thing, but obviously, we 16 didn't hold a hearing two months ago. So they 17 would have held, for the duration of the year, a 18 valid extension of premise there. Now the 19 question is, if DNS didn't -- if this was 20 adjudicated in court, if there was an attempt by 21 DNS to deny an occupancy, that's one thing. The 22 fact of the matter is, I'll read it as they had a 23 legal extension of premise. 24 And I darn well tell you, I don't know 25 who would want to sit on the ramp, because you're 45 1 in the way, first and foremost, but secondly, I 2 read that all as the entire deck. 3 And as I said, DNS, strong suggestion, 4 I'm not the alderman of this area, but I'll tell 5 you this much: If you want to get us involved in 6 a lawsuit, start pulling stupid laws because you 7 lose. And then everyone, taxpayer here, will 8 start to pay money out for stupidity. It's called 9 common sense, and we need to use it on all fronts. 10 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac. 12 ALDERMAN KOVAC: I have a question for 13 the witness. 14 Your house is where in relation to the 15 bar? 16 MS. MURPHY: My house is directly behind 17 the volleyball court. 18 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Right. I think I 19 remember your testimony from last year was that 20 there was severe noise problems from the activity 21 outside. 22 MS. MURPHY: And the inside as well, 23 sir. 24 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Okay. That's what I 25 wanted to clarify. So I thought the main problem 46 1 was the outside, but the inside activity is -- 2 MS. MURPHY: There's a lot of times when 3 the bar will open their doors, they have a kitchen 4 in the back of the bar, they open that door quite 5 often. And you can hear all of the music and the 6 loud talking, you know, all of the loudness, and 7 then as well as they will open the side door. 8 And I think there is a little confusion 9 here as to the deck quote/unquote. A lot of the 10 neighborhood has complained regarding patrons 11 standing on the entrance portion of the bar, which 12 is wooded, and it is an entrance portion. And 13 people were standing on that ramp area, Mr. 14 Chairman, and drinking and smoking as well as in 15 front of the door as well as on that front 16 entrance portion of the bar. The deck, as we are, 17 quote/unquote, calling it, the neighborhood, is 18 the deck, the wood portion of the deck that is 19 adjacent and butts up against the volleyball 20 court. And that is what is directly behind my 21 home. And I think that's why there is some 22 confusion, Mr. Chairman, on that. And it is gated 23 off. If you pull up the picture, you will see 24 it's gated off. 25 The deck to the volleyball court, there 47 1 is a volleyball court, and then the deck, and then 2 that's gated. There is a front wooded entrance to 3 the bar. And a lot of the times, when they had 4 the smoking ban especially went into effect, a lot 5 of patrons of this bar were out on the deck 6 smoking and drinking on the sidewalk; smoking and 7 drinking, walking from 4024 to 4014 on the 8 sidewalk with alcoholic beverages. 9 I have a 13-year-old son, a 10-year-old 10 daughter and a 5-year-old daughter. And I can't 11 even take them for a walk with our dog because 12 they're seeing people outside drinking. It is not 13 something I want my children to see. As well as, 14 a lot of the times, if they are intoxicated, they 15 wobble and stumble. And this is what my children 16 are seeing. And I don't -- I didn't live in this 17 neighborhood for that. I've lived here for 17 18 years, and until this particular person had taken 19 over the bar as a lessee, to my understanding not 20 the owner of; Mr. Rodney Las presented himself to 21 me as the new owner of the bar and as the 22 operations manager of the bar on several different 23 occasions as well as in a meeting that we had set 24 up at the Tippecanoe Library with Mr. Las. 25 I believe his bartender, Scott or Steve, 48 1 was present and one other gentleman, and again, 2 their, they had made the interpretation that -- 3 well, Mr. Las wasn't at that meeting, but the 4 person representing the bar said that he is the 5 operations manager and he is the person running 6 the bar for Ms. Elliot. And I also had another 7 brief encounter with the bartender, he came to my 8 home one day and we had a long discussion. And he 9 had told me Mr. Las is the operations manager, he 10 is the person running the bar. 11 And, again, I have never met Ms. Elliot. 12 I had never seen her until that November hearing 13 that was here in front of you. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: When were those 15 discussions approximately? 16 MS. MURPHY: Which one, the one at the 17 library? 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yeah. 19 MS. MURPHY: I can give you the -- 20 approximately the week of December 16th. On the 21 afternoon, the meeting was held on the 14th of 22 December of 2009 at the Tippecanoe Library. 23 I can read you a little brief 24 description. I had conversations with an 25 attorney, David Halbrooks, after the meeting. 49 1 Basically, we had talked about all the problems 2 with the bar. Attorney Halbrooks stated to me 3 that Rodney is currently and will still be 4 employed at Jersey's but did not clearly state at 5 that point what his exact title was. We had made 6 concerns to the attorney regarding Rodney being 7 employed at Jersey's and that there were 8 statements made under oath to this Committee 9 earlier in the year that Mr. Las was not employed 10 with the bar. 11 And I just can't understand how somebody 12 can come to your home on several occasions, an 13 employee of that particular bar come to your home 14 and speak with you, and tell you personally that 15 this person is the operations manager and is the 16 new lessee of the bar and then deny it later. 17 I just see this as an ongoing issue. I 18 see this as an ongoing problem. I do not see my 19 life being peaceful until my children's life being 20 peaceful 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm not trying to 22 diminish that, but you told me four more times -- 23 I've heard it now three times. 24 MS. MURPHY: Right. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I want to get to the 50 1 facts, okay. 2 When you spoke of individuals hearing 3 alcohol on the front street going from one 4 location to another -- 5 MS. MURPHY: Seeing, sir; not hearing. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm sorry, seeing. Is 7 there another bar that they were going from one 8 location to another? Wonder if you could clarify 9 that, I'd appreciate that? 10 MS. MURPHY: Yes, there is another, it's 11 4014 South Howell. It's another bar that is 12 directly, it goes -- the Jersey's, which is 4024, 13 the volleyball court, and then the deck is 14 attached to the volleyball court, and then on the 15 other side is the 4014. And it was used as a bar, 16 as the bar prior to this larger bar opening. And 17 then as that larger bar opened, it was used as a 18 party hall that people rented out for parties and 19 such. And then after, from my understanding, Mr. 20 Las took over, they turned it into like a -- he 21 said, he told me it was like a wine or tiki bar, 22 or some sort of bar where people could go. And 23 then they use that for parties and Packer parties, 24 or whatever. 25 At one point, they had a party for the 51 1 singing competition that was on TV, that they 2 advertised at the bar. So they would go from -- 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You see them walking on 4 the front street from one entrance to another 5 entrance? 6 MS. MURPHY: I personally witnessed that 7 myself. 8 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 9 And they were carrying drinks while they 10 did so? 11 MS. MURPHY: Yes, sir. What seemed to 12 me, it's pretty obvious, I'm 40 years old, I know 13 what a beer bottle looks like. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Ms. Grill, do they have 15 two different addresses licensed? 16 MS. GRILL: Yes, there's a range that's 17 licensed: 4014 to 4024 South Howell. And I 18 believe that DNS has an issue with that. But we 19 have it licensing as one location. And that's 20 where some of the problem was with the deck 21 because that was what made it contiguous. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The deck. 23 MS. GRILL: I was there during that 24 whole -- 25 MR. ARENA: The deck connects the two 52 1 places. Nobody walks on the sidewalk; they go 2 across the deck from one door to the other door. 3 That's why it's licensed as one, the deck connects 4 the two. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. I mean, not 6 withstanding that, her testimony is, she sees 7 people leaving the deck and walking on the front 8 street. And her testimony is her testimony. It 9 is what it is. I can't refute it. She is under 10 oath, that's what she states. 11 All right. Thank you for clarifying 12 that. 13 Were there any other Committee 14 questions? 15 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Very quickly to 16 clarify. 17 You saw people on the sidewalk, not that 18 deck? 19 MS. MURPHY: Yes, sir, walking on the 20 sidewalk. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Got it. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Any other questions by 23 Committee? 24 Mr. Arena, do you have questions of this 25 witness? 53 1 MR. ARENA: Yes, I do. Thank you, Mr. 2 Chairman. 3 You were stating earlier that the, your 4 quality of life is affected and you cannot go 5 outside. Explain to us, what direction does your 6 home face in reference to the bar? You live on 7 Burrell Street, correct? 8 MS. MURPHY: Yes, the front of my home 9 faces east. 10 MR. ARENA: And your back -- 11 MS. MURPHY: The rear of my home faces 12 west. 13 MR. ARENA: And you have between your 14 house, is basically, what used to be a volleyball 15 court. It's not a volleyball court anymore, is 16 it? 17 MS. MURPHY: It's still -- my house, my 18 home was never a volleyball court. 19 MR. ARENA: No. Your yard is adjacent 20 to the area where volleyball used to be played. 21 MS. MURPHY: My yard is adjacent to the 22 current volleyball court, yes. 23 MR. ARENA: And that volleyball court 24 was not used for the purpose of volleyball all 25 summer, was it? 54 1 MS. MURPHY: No, because BOZA had 2 stopped that. 3 MR. ARENA: I didn't ask you why, I just 4 asked you, it was not used for volleyball, 5 correct? 6 MS. MURPHY: Not in the summer of 2009, 7 other than there was a few times when patrons were 8 out there playing volleyball. 9 MR. ARENA: I'm talking about the summer 10 of 2010. 11 MS. MURPHY: Oh, I'm sorry, 2010, yes. 12 MR. ARENA: In fact, the weeds have 13 grown over in that area, have they not? 14 MS. MURPHY: Sir, there is a ten-foot 15 fence, so I can't see into the volleyball court. 16 However, there has not been tournaments, 17 tournaments for volleyball. 18 MR. ARENA: What kind of fence is that 19 ten-foot fence? 20 MS. MURPHY: I'm assuming it's a 21 ten-foot fence. Because it's taller than I am, 22 and I'm 5'6", and this is -- 23 MR. ARENA: Well, you're 40 years old. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Arena, could you 25 allow her to answer the question? 55 1 MS. ARENA: No, she is not answering the 2 question. I'm going to try to keep it moving 3 along quickly. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, I'm providing you 5 time to ask and for her to answer. And it's not 6 going to count against you. But, please, allow 7 her time to answer that, okay. 8 MS. MURPHY: It's wood. 9 MR. ARENA: Is it a solid fence? Can 10 you see through it? 11 MS. MURPHY: It's -- the panels are 12 staggered. There is like one and then one behind 13 it, and one and one behind it. There are -- I 14 mean, you'd have to sit there like this and try to 15 look through. And there is one part where the 16 fence comes together and there is a metal pole. 17 So there is a little bit, probably about four 18 inches on the corner. So, I mean, that's as clear 19 as I can be without them bringing a picture of it 20 up. 21 MR. ARENA: So your house faces the 22 opposite direction, and there is a ten-foot fence. 23 MS. MURPHY: No, the front of my home 24 does; not the rear of my home, where children 25 play, where I sit outside. 56 1 MR. ARENA: You said earlier in your 2 testimony that you cannot enjoy your neighborhood 3 and you cannot even go out. But you regularly go 4 out and walk your dog, and you walk your dog down 5 Howell Avenue past the doorway of Jersey's, do you 6 not? 7 MS. MURPHY: I have walked my dog, yes, 8 that way. 9 MR. ARENA: And I presume these are the 10 times that you say you'll see people on the 11 sidewalk going from 4024 and 4014? 12 MS. MURPHY: There were several times 13 that I see people. 14 MR. ARENA: There is a deck with a 15 wheelchair ramp that goes into 4024, right? 16 MS. MURPHY: There is a deck in the 17 front, the entranceway to the bar, and there are 18 stairs on the one side and a ramp on the other 19 that lead to the front of the bar. 20 MR. ARENA: And the deck goes across to 21 the other bar. You don't have to go on the 22 sidewalk to get to 4014, do you? 23 MS. MURPHY: If you go through the bar. 24 MR. ARENA: Okay. Now, you've talked 25 about this Mr. Las coming to your home and making 57 1 certain statements, correct? 2 MS. MURPHY: Yes. 3 MR. ARENA: So you know who Mr. Las is? 4 MS. MURPHY: Yes. 5 MR. ARENA: You do not like Mr. Las, do 6 you? 7 MS. MURPHY: I don't care for his 8 practices, but as a person, I really don't know 9 him personally. I don't spend time with the 10 gentleman. I have spent a few -- when he was at 11 my home, we talked. We talked about him being the 12 new owner of the bar. We talked about him being 13 operations manager of the bar. We talked about 14 his girlfriend, Ms. Elliot, and some of her 15 medical conditions. We had talked about my 16 daughter and her medical conditions. There was a 17 lot of conversations that day. And there was a 18 few other times he came to my home and spoke with 19 me and said if I had any problems with the bar to 20 -- he had given me his cell phone number. He had 21 given me the bar's number and said to call him if 22 there were any problems. And on one occasion, at 23 about 2:30 in the morning or around about that 24 time, I did call him. And so, there have been a 25 few conversations with him, yes. 58 1 MR. ARENA: Do you believe everything 2 that somebody tells you? Somebody that you don't 3 even know, do you believe everything they tell 4 you? 5 MS. MURPHY: When a person tells me they 6 are the owner of an establishment and they are the 7 operations manager, they give me their phone 8 number and their cell phone number and tell me if 9 I have any issues or complaints regarding that 10 particular establishment, yes, I will believe 11 them. 12 MR. ARENA: Did you ever go into the 13 establishment and talk to Christina Elliot? 14 MS. MURPHY: I have never met Christina 15 Elliot. 16 MR. ARENA: You said that he mentioned 17 to you that Christina Elliot was his girlfriend, 18 and he had told you in that conversation that 19 Christina Elliot was the owner, did he not? 20 MS. MURPHY: No. He said she was his 21 girlfriend. He said that he was the new owner, 22 MR. ARENA: Now, you have made several 23 calls including calls to the Department of 24 Neighborhood Services when you believe people 25 should not be on the deck, correct? 59 1 MS. MURPHY: When BOZA had put in the 2 restriction and I was under the understanding that 3 they were not allowed to use the deck that was 4 adjacent to the volleyball court, yes, I did when 5 they were loud and obnoxious. 6 MR. ARENA: Who informed you of that 7 fact that they were not allowed to use the deck? 8 MS. MURPHY: I was at the hearing. 9 MR. ARENA: And you're saying they said 10 explicitly that the deck could not be used? 11 MS. MURPHY: They had put the deck and 12 the volleyball court, could not be used, and that 13 they had to come up in front of BOZA again, that 14 particular establishment. That was my 15 understanding from what I recall. 16 MR. ARENA: You were actually informed, 17 were you not, by, I believe it was Police Officer 18 Conrad, that, in fact, they could use the deck? 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Arena, I just -- in 20 order for us to audibly get you on the record 21 here, you need to use the microphone 22 MS. MURPHY: I spoke with several 23 officers on several different occasions, so I 24 guess you would have to be more specific. There 25 was a time -- if you could give me a date? 60 1 MR. ARENA: Well, you sent an e-mail on 2 August 2nd, and you sent that e-mail to your 3 alderman, Alderman Zielinski, and I believe you 4 also sent it to other people in the Licenses 5 Division concerning your contract, contact with an 6 Officer Conrad who informed you that people were 7 allowed to socialize on the deck patio of the bar. 8 MS. MURPHY: I'm holding a copy of that 9 e-mail, sir. And I did speak with an Officer 10 Conrad, and she had stated that she visited the 11 bar and found patrons smoking and drinking on the 12 wood entrance portion of the bar, but not, at that 13 point, on the public sidewalk when she had gotten 14 there. I can go on and on about -- I can read the 15 e-mail if you would like, but I'm sure if will 16 take up more time than this Committee has time 17 for. 18 MR. ARENA: Well, they have the e-mail, 19 so they can read it themselves. 20 MS. MURPHY: Okay, so they can read it. 21 MR. ARENA: Now, you've also made a -- 22 it's pretty much your practice to call on, to call 23 the police on whatever you can if it involves 24 Jersey's, correct? 25 MS. MURPHY: Sir, I would make a phone 61 1 call on any person or establishment that is 2 affecting me directly, yes. 3 MR. ARENA: Now, you made a phone call, 4 did you not, to complain that some vehicles had 5 registration stickers that were not current, 6 correct? 7 MS. MURPHY: I don't -- 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Object. Mr. 9 Chairman, what's the relevancy of this line of 10 questioning? 11 MR. ARENA: It goes to her credibility. 12 It goes to her motivation to be here to testify 13 today. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Her motivation 15 because she's a neighbor, she wants a quiet 16 neighborhood? 17 MR. ARENA: Well, it doesn't mean you 18 have to believe everything that a neighbor gets up 19 here and says. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, Mr. Arena, I guess 21 we'll have to take her at her face value. I'm 22 going to ask you to move on to a different line of 23 questioning. 24 MR. ARENA: You have called and reported 25 violations to District 6 for noise, correct? 62 1 MS. MURPHY: Yes, sir. 2 MR. ARENA: And you, in fact, even have 3 officer Tyler Kirkvold's cell phone number and 4 call him directly on your own, correct? 5 MS. MURPHY: Not that I recall. I 6 recall speaking with Officer Kirkvold at my home 7 regarding a complaint about the bar, yes. 8 MR. ARENA: Would it be fair to say that 9 you would do just about anything to get this bar a 10 ticket knowing that you called on issues of people 11 on the deck, on issues of people with stickers on 12 their car? You actively like to call the police 13 to get this location a ticket, do you not? 14 MS. MURPHY: Again, I will state for the 15 record that any person, any establishment that 16 disrupts my life, my peace and my neighborhood, I 17 will make a complaint about it, yes, to my 18 alderman or to this council or to any police 19 officer. 20 MR. ARENA: But you've said that you 21 can't go outside, but you're willing to walk down 22 the street and walk your dog down the street in 23 front of that bar on a regular basis, are you not? 24 MS. MURPHY: It hasn't been on a regular 25 basis all the time, since the bar has had patrons 63 1 outside drinking. 2 MR. ARENA: But you've done it, right? 3 MS. MURPHY: And when you utilize their 4 deck -- a person does walk their dog -- 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Object. Mr. Chair, 6 we're going around in circles. We're going around 7 in circles. You told him to quit the line of 8 questioning. He is continuing. 9 MR. ARENA: Do you walk by Rookies? 10 They have a deck outside or an outside patio, 11 correct? 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman, 13 object. He is continuing. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Just allow him to 15 finish, Alderman Zielinski. 16 MS. MURPHY: Yeah, I've walked past 17 Rookies. I've walked past the establishments -- 18 MR. ARENA: She answered the question. 19 All she has to do is stop talking, and I'll ask 20 her another question. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Arena, let's not 22 make it personal, okay? 23 MR. ARENA: I'm not making it personal. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Her answer was, 25 yes, she has. 64 1 MR. ARENA: Now, the deck area -- this 2 is a factual question, you don't see any speakers, 3 there isn't music played on that deck, is there? 4 MS. MURPHY: Which deck? The entrance 5 to the bar, or the deck adjacent to the volleyball 6 court? 7 MR. ARENA: Any deck, any place in that 8 whole establishment, is there an outside speaker? 9 MS. MURPHY: There has been portable 10 radios out on the deck, yes. 11 MR. ARENA: What -- where were you when 12 you observed that? 13 MS. MURPHY: There was a lot of noise 14 going on at the bar. It was at the time when 15 there was volleyball going on, and I had taken a 16 walk around, and I had seen it on the corner of 17 the deck while they were playing volleyball. 18 MR. ARENA: So that would have been in 19 the summer of 2009 if volleyball was going on, 20 correct? 21 MS. MURPHY: Sir, I'm not sure of the 22 exact date and the exact time. I'm just telling 23 you what I have observed there at a point in time 24 when there was noise going on. 25 MR. ARENA: We've already established 65 1 and it is a fact that volleyball was not played in 2 the summer of 2010, that is correct, is it not? 3 MS. MURPHY: Yes, tournament volleyball 4 or league volleyball, whatever you call it. 5 MR. ARENA: As you said, you were at the 6 BOZA meeting, and there was no permit granted and 7 there is no permit granted, as you know, for the 8 playing of volleyball through 2010. So there was 9 no volleyball played in the summer of 2010, right? 10 MS. MURPHY: There was no league 11 volleyball, and I had stated -- 12 MR. ARENA: None whatsoever. 13 MS. MURPHY: No league volleyball. 14 MR. ARENA: Well, what other kind of 15 volleyball is there? League, non-league, there 16 was no volleyball played, was there? 17 MS. MURPHY: There was volleyball played 18 by just regular people every once in a while, I'm 19 not saying every day; I'm just saying I had 20 observed it or heard it, you know, once, maybe 21 twice. 22 MR. ARENA: You said that there was a 23 bartender that came and talked to you. Is that 24 gentleman in this room right now? He stepped out. 25 Did you see the green NASCAR jacket on, was that 66 1 the gentleman? 2 MS. MURPHY: I didn't see who was 3 sitting there, sir. 4 MR. ARENA: This isn't the first owner 5 of this establishment that you have come to these 6 hearings and testified against the license, 7 correct? 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Object, Mr. 9 Chairman. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You know what, I'm not 11 going to question her motivation here. She has 12 testified she's got concerns, Mr. Arena. I'm 13 going to give her the benefit of the doubt of 14 saying that she testifies and makes complaints 15 when she has concerns. 16 MR. ARENA: Have you ever gone inside 17 the establishment, Ms. Murphy? 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And if you could use the 19 microphone, again, Mr. Arena? 20 MR. ARENA: Have you ever been inside 21 the establishment, Ms. Murphy, in the year of 22 2010? 23 MS. MURPHY: No. 24 MR. ARENA: So if you're not, if you 25 haven't been inside the establishment, you don't 67 1 know exactly who's instructing employees on 2 policies and who's taking care of the business 3 inside the business, do you? 4 MS. MURPHY: Sir, as I've testified 5 before, I only know what Mr. Las and the gentleman 6 who addressed -- 7 MR. ARENA: I didn't ask you what -- 8 MS. MURPHY: May I finish? And the 9 gentleman who addressed himself to me as the 10 current bartender, I only know those two people. 11 MR. ARENA: Was this location a licensed 12 tavern before you moved into your property 17 13 years ago? 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Arena. 15 MS. MURPHY: No. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm going to ask that 17 your testimony or your questions actually be 18 elicited based on her testimony, please. 19 MR. ARENA: Okay. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Finished? 21 MR. ARENA: Almost. 22 I have no further questions. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman, I 24 have a few questions of this witness. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, Alderman, I just 68 1 want you to be brief. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I'm going to be 3 brief and to the point; it's going to be succinct. 4 Ms. Murphy, you had indicated that Mr. 5 Rodney Las has visited you at your house and made 6 contact with you on numerous occasions. About how 7 many times would you say that that was? What 8 number if you had to place a number on that? 9 MS. MURPHY: If I would have to place a 10 number, I would say at least five. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: At least five 12 times, okay. And then you testified that the 13 first time you saw the licensee was at the last 14 meeting? 15 MS. MURPHY: Ms. Elliot? 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Yes. 17 MS. MURPHY: Was at the last meeting. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: That was the first 19 time you saw her? 20 MS. MURPHY: First time I've ever seen 21 her. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. And then you 23 also made mention of the fact there was a meeting 24 after the Licensing Committee recommended a 45-day 25 suspension. And the purpose of that meeting was 69 1 to get the neighbors and the owner of Jersey's Pub 2 to see if there is a meeting of the minds to come 3 up with some sort of an agreement, correct? 4 MS. MURPHY: Yes. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Did you see the 6 licensee, Ms. Elliot, at that meeting? 7 MS. MURPHY: No. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. At the end 9 of the last meeting, when you were walking out, 10 after the 45-day suspension, were there any 11 comments made to you by anybody? 12 MS. MURPHY: Ms. Elliot made comments to 13 me. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: What did she say? 15 MS. MURPHY: She said, "Thank you so 16 very much for ruining my establishment. Thank you 17 for putting approximately --" I can't remember the 18 number of people, "out of work. You have now just 19 ruined people's lives." 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Did she say 21 anything else, any names? 22 MS. MURPHY: She had called me some 23 profanities. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I think that last 25 question you had mentioned that there was a Board 70 1 of Zoning Appeals hearing on the use of the 2 volleyball court this summer, correct? 3 MS. MURPHY: Yes. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: And you were there. 5 And the Board of Zoning Appeals denied their 6 request to continue using the volleyball courts? 7 MS. MURPHY: Yes. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Was that partially 9 based on neighborhood testimony, would you say? 10 MS. MURPHY: Yes. 11 MR. ARENA: I have to object to that. 12 The hearing never took place. It's being 13 scheduled for a contested hearing, and they did 14 not rule on it, so that is not a proper question. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: The Committee 16 didn't approve, you know, the request for the 17 license. 18 MR. ARENA: Didn't disprove. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We'll strike that 20 question. 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Proceed. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: This is my topic 24 here on the Board of Zoning Appeals. Let me just 25 rephrase the question. There was a request to use 71 1 the volleyball courts, and there was no action 2 taken, so they're not allowed to use the 3 volleyball courts now, correct? 4 MS. MURPHY: From my understanding, 5 correct. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Did you see the 7 licensee, Ms. Elliot, testify on behalf of this 8 matter, or did you see Mr. Las testify? 9 MS. MURPHY: Mr. Las was here. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Did you see the 11 licensee or the owner anywhere in the vicinity 12 during these proceedings? 13 MS. MURPHY: I saw -- wait, can you -- 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Did you see this 15 individual, Ms. Elliot, anywhere near the Board of 16 Zoning Appeals matter when they were trying to get 17 the volleyball court approved? 18 MS. MURPHY: No. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 20 That is all, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. 21 MR. ARENA: Could I have two brief 22 questions, please, Mr. Chairman? 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead. 24 MR. ARENA: Do you know the rules on who 25 can appear before the Board of Zoning and Appeals? 72 1 Are you aware that the rules allow anybody to be a 2 representative of any business to testify or any 3 citizen to testify at a Board of Zoning and 4 Appeals hearing? Are you aware of that? 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Object, what's the 6 relevancy? 7 MR. ARENA: He asked the question. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I just, I think my 9 question was relevant because you would think the 10 licensee would be there. My experience has been 11 when something comes before BOZA, the licensee is 12 there, just like the licensee is now. If, indeed, 13 they are the real licensee who really operates it 14 as they purport they do. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman, the standard 16 is different before the Board of Zoning Appeals. 17 I've been on the council longer than you, and the 18 longest of this Committee, and I've had it where 19 managers, I've had it where spouses, I've had it 20 where others other than the license applicant has 21 appeared before the Board of Zoning Appeals. We 22 don't allow that legally here, it's either an 23 agent and/or an attorney if it is a corporation. 24 But the standard is different here than it is at 25 the Board of Zoning Appeals, and I've actually 73 1 seen both at the Board of Zoning Appeals. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm just saying, you 4 raised the question, I provided the answer because 5 I've seen it myself. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No, I understand, 7 Mr. Chairman, that they do have different, you 8 know, standards. My point was when you take that 9 in totality with everything else, I think it bears 10 more weight. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: There is no dispute of 12 your asking her that question, or her saying she 13 didn't see her there at the Board. 14 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 15 I don't know who can answer this, but 16 for the Board of Zoning Appeals' thing, whose name 17 is actually on the application for the special use 18 or whatever? 19 MR. ARENA: Competitive Adventures, LLC. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No more questions. 21 MR. ARENA: I'm the one asking the 22 questions. 23 Now, you talked about this meeting in 24 December. The owners were represented at that 25 meeting by a lawyer, correct? 74 1 MS. MURPHY: An attorney was there. 2 MR. ARENA: Halbrooks? 3 MS. MURPHY: Halbrooks. I'm not sure of 4 how it's pronounced, but there was an attorney 5 there, yes. 6 MR. ARENA: You talked about an 7 individual that came to your house and talked to 8 you, was somebody, a bartender from the bar. Is 9 this the individual that is sitting behind me 10 here? 11 MS. MURPHY: Yes. 12 MR. ARENA: Scott Rick. And you spoke 13 to him? 14 MS. MURPHY: Yes. 15 MR. ARENA: And you're saying that he 16 said something to you to the effect of -- 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: One moment, please. 18 MR. ARENA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We need three on the 20 floor at all times. Even though he is in the 21 doorway, he can't close that door. So he was 22 right in the adjacent room where we have video, or 23 audio, but we need him in the room, so. Go ahead, 24 please. 25 MR. ARENA: So you had a conversation 75 1 with this gentleman here, Mr. Rick, correct? 2 MS. MURPHY: Yes. 3 MR. ARENA: And he represented to you 4 that he was an employee of Jersey's, correct? 5 MS. MURPHY: Yes. 6 MR. ARENA: Now, you said that you 7 haven't seen Ms. Elliot, but you walk by 8 oftentimes with the dog, and she waves to you, 9 does she not, from the window? 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chair. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Hold on. Let him -- 12 Alderman Zielinski, I find it as a legitimate 13 question. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: But my point is, 15 Mr. Chairman, he could have asked this question 16 during his open line. This is -- if he's going to 17 cross examine, he should go over the new material. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I agree. I absolutely 19 agree. But here is the thing, here is the thing: 20 He has the ability to cross examine a witness 21 because he's providing due process for the client 22 that he's hired for. I'm actually -- there is 23 nothing that stipulates that the local alderperson 24 be allowed to question that witness on their time; 25 I gave you due deferences. You kept the whole 76 1 line open to the point where she wasn't dismissed 2 and he had a follow-up, and now he is getting 3 additional -- so I'm just going to say, if you 4 wouldn't have -- I would have dismissed her, we 5 would have moved on to the next witness, Alderman. 6 Don't keep it alive, okay? 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay, but I'm just 8 saying, if he is going to cross examine, it should 9 be on new information I've raised; not rehashing 10 old information that wasn't covered. 11 MR. ARENA: Where is it in the rules 12 that says that I have to do that? Check the rules 13 of evidence in a court, Alderman, which you are a 14 lawyer. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman, I'm just going 16 to -- I'll allow that question here. 17 Go ahead, Mr. Arena. 18 MR. ARENA: You have had occasion to see 19 the person seated next to me, Ms. Elliot, wave? 20 MS. MURPHY: I have not. The first time 21 I ever saw Ms. Elliot was when we had the meeting 22 here. I had never seen her. The only ones I ever 23 met from the bar, that said that he was the owner 24 and the operations manager, was Rodney Las, and I 25 met Mr. Scott Rick. I have not ever have been 77 1 even personally introduced to Ms. Elliot. 2 MR. ARENA: No further questions. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Have you waved to her in 4 walking by? 5 MS. MURPHY: No, sir, I never have. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, that's her answer. 7 Your answer is your answer. 8 MR. ARENA: I think the question was, is 9 that my client waved to her. I don't know that 10 she waved. I'm sure she didn't. 11 MS. ELLIOT: She never waved back, but I 12 waved to her. 13 MS. MURPHY: No. She never -- I -- no, 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Have you seen her wave 15 to you? 16 MS. MURPHY: I have never seen her wave 17 to me. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Thank you 19 for your testimony. 20 Next witness, please. Name and address, 21 please. 22 MS. ATKINS: Denise Atkins, "A" as in 23 Apple, "T" as in Tom, K-I-N-S, address is 119 East 24 Norwich Street, Milwaukee 53207. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And how close in 78 1 proximity is that to this location here? 2 MS. ATKINS: I am right around the 3 corner from Howell Avenue. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, and your 5 testimony, ma'am, please. 6 MS. ATKINS: Okay. Just real quickly, 7 there are some things that have been said here, 8 and I'm not sure of all of the implications of 9 them, so. I just wanted to clarify some things. 10 And that is that I was here, you know, for the 11 hearing, and we understood that DNS had indicated 12 that they were not to use the deck, or anything 13 like that, outside of the bar. And because they 14 went ahead and they used it prior to even knowing 15 that legally, apparently, they had the use of it, 16 I think it indicates an attitude. And that's been 17 a real prevailing attitude since they have taken 18 over ownership there, is that there is just a lack 19 of cooperation, a lack of concern, a lack of 20 regard for people. Patrons coming and going, 21 there's just a lack of regard in general in that 22 whole population of people that choose to go to 23 that bar at this time. We hadn't experienced that 24 before. And it's just an ongoing problem. It's 25 not just weekends when you might anticipate it if 79 1 you're living near a bar that there'd be some 2 noise and some additional possible, you know, 3 disturbances, but it's on an ongoing basis, seven 4 days a week, just an ongoing problem. 5 So to me, there is just an attitude 6 that's just real evident, and everything that I've 7 been seeing. And that's why I'm here. Because 8 I'm constantly disturbed in the middle of the 9 night on a regular basis. It's not, like I said, 10 just on a Friday or Saturday night, but it's on a 11 pretty regular basis. 12 And there are parking violations 13 constantly, people are parking on the wrong side 14 of the street where it's clearly marked that there 15 is no parking. They are parking in front of 16 people's driveways. We're having to call the 17 police. Just a couple weeks ago, there were two 18 cars that were towed away. There's just been 19 parking in an area that's completely marked "no 20 parking," clearly marked, and people are 21 consistently doing that. And some of them are 22 consistently getting away with it, which is 23 amazing to me. Because as a neighbor, we have 24 parked and forgotten that we parked for, you know, 25 longer than the allowed time and gotten tickets. 80 1 However, the patrons at this bar, it seems like, 2 you know, that just doesn't happen, and that kind 3 of puzzles me. 4 So that is a concern of mine, just 5 constant disturbance, the constant noise, the 6 constant disregard, you know, for neighbors or 7 even having the intention of being a good 8 neighbor. As far as Christine being the owner, I 9 was not aware that she was the owner of the bar. 10 I also -- Mr. Las came to my door, also introduced 11 himself when he found that there was problems 12 because contact Mr. Zielinski to make some 13 complaints. He came to the door and introduced 14 himself as the owner, gave us a piece of paper 15 with his phone number and contact information and 16 said that if there were any problems, you know, to 17 call him. And, yes, I did believe him, I had no 18 reason to not believe him. And I've never met 19 Christine, she's never come to my door, introduced 20 herself and indicated that she was concerned 21 about, you know, my experiences as a neighbor. 22 And I think everybody has a 23 responsibility whether you're a business or not or 24 residential, you know, owner, everyone has a 25 responsibility to be a good neighbor and to 81 1 cooperate and work together. And I haven't seen 2 evidence of that personally. 3 And at the hearing that she was here at, 4 I just wanted to let you know that I remember her 5 saying at the hearing that she could not be 6 present at the bar. And I don't know what the 7 implications are of this, but I just wanted you to 8 know that I remember her saying this, and saying 9 due to some health issues, that she could not be 10 present at the bar and there was someone else -- I 11 don't remember if it was Mr. Las, I don't remember 12 who it was, but -- that was taking care of the 13 business for her. So I don't know what that 14 means, but based on the discussion, I just wanted 15 to mention that, that she did say that. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by Committee? 17 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair, if I may? 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Stephens. 19 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Ma'am, you've 20 testified that you have observed or heard a 21 constant disturbance and noise. Could you 22 describe the connection between this licensed 23 premise and what you're describing as constant 24 disturbance and noise? 25 MS. ATKINS: I'm sorry, I didn't hear 82 1 part of that. 2 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Could you describe 3 for us, the connection between this licensed 4 premises and what you've testified for, testified 5 as constant disturbance and noise? What's the 6 connection? 7 MS. ATKINS: Well, it's patrons that go 8 to that particular bar. We have other bars in the 9 area, and we don't have any problems with them. 10 But the patrons at this particular bar, there is 11 just continual problems where they come out, 12 they've been drinking, they're drunk, they're too 13 loud, they get into fights. Police have been 14 called, and, ironically, when they arrive, there 15 is oftentimes that there is no sign of any kind of 16 disturbance, yet it did happen. It did occur to 17 the point that it's happened enough times that I 18 don't bother to call anymore. 19 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Have you personally 20 observed this? 21 MS. ATKINS: Yes. I've had people sit 22 on my staircase and make themselves at home with 23 beverages in a cup, in plastic cups, and leave 24 their debris. And I'm not talking about on the 25 concrete step between my yard and the sidewalk, 83 1 but right on my porch. So there is just a clear 2 disregard, just hasn't been pleasant, put it that 3 way. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Ma'am, the 5 items that you just were speaking to, when in 6 proximity of time would you say that you've most 7 recently experienced these things? 8 MS. ATKINS: Most recently? 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yes. 10 MS. ATKINS: Recently, I would say 11 probably less than two weeks ago, there were two 12 cars that were towed out in front of my home. And 13 then people, when they came to their cars that 14 same night, very loud, just very, very loud, just 15 -- and again, disturbing. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And in terms of the loud 17 noise, activities, that you described from what 18 you believe are the patrons in this location, in 19 the past year, how many times would you say that 20 you were disturbed? 21 MS. ATKINS: It's an ongoing thing. 22 It's just an ongoing thing. I could be, I might 23 have a couple of nights where there is no 24 disturbance, but for the most part, it's very rare 25 that I get a full night's sleep. And I'm being 84 1 very honestly; I'm not exaggerating. I wish I 2 were, but I'm not, so. And it's pretty hard to 3 function when you don't get enough sleep. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Have you seen any 5 improvement at all in the last year compared to 6 the previous year or previous years? 7 MS. ATKINS: During the time when the 8 suspension was on, yes, it got real quiet. It was 9 really nice. It was peaceful, but that was the 10 only time really that I've seen an improvement at 11 all. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Thank you. 13 Any other questions, follow-up by 14 Committee? 15 Mr. Arena, questions? 16 MR. ARENA: Is that me? 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You are Mr. Arena, 18 aren't you? 19 MR. ARENA: Yes. I didn't hear you at 20 all. I wasn't -- I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman. 21 I'm not real familiar with this new 22 procedure. Now, how is this time right now during 23 this testimony being -- is there 30 minutes? 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm not counting your 25 time, against your time to raise due-process 85 1 questions here. 2 MR. ARENA: Are you counting it against 3 anybody's time, I mean -- 4 ALDERMAN BOHL: Yes 5 MR. ARENA: Now, I believe you said your 6 name was Denise. I didn't get your last name? 7 MS. ATKINS: Atkins. 8 MR. ARENA: Atkins. Now, you live on 9 East Norwich Street. Do you live on the west side 10 of Howell Avenue or the east side of Howell 11 Avenue? 12 MS. ATKINS: I live on the east side. 13 MR. ARENA: And -- 14 MS. ATKINS: And on the south side of 15 the street. 16 MR. ARENA: So you live on the east side 17 of Howell Avenue, on the south side of Norwich? 18 MS. ATKINS: Correct. 19 MR. ARENA: And how many feet are you 20 from Jersey's front door then from where your 21 property is? 22 MS. ATKINS: It would be a couple doors 23 away from the corner. 24 MR. ARENA:: Can you see that map up 25 there? Can that refresh your recollection as to 86 1 which direction you live in? I believe that's 2 Howell Avenue, the bottom street. 3 MS. ATKINS: Mm mm. 4 MR. ARENA: Is that Norwich that we see 5 on the left side? 6 MS. ATKINS: It's Norwich, right. And 7 my home is adjacent to the parking lot, the white 8 house there. 9 MR. ARENA: Okay. So you are on the 10 opposite side of Norwich Street? 11 MS. ATKINS: No, I'm on the same side as 12 the bar, if you just right go around the corner. 13 MR. ARENA: Okay. Is your house the 14 house with the red roof? 15 MS. ATKINS: No. 16 MR. ARENA: Is it the next one down, 17 which has a green roof? 18 MS. ATKINS: No, it's the grey, it's the 19 white home, right there by the parking lot. 20 MR. ARENA: And to the north of you, 21 there is another tavern called "Rookies," correct? 22 MS. ATKINS: Two blocks down. 23 MR. ARENA: And there is another tavern 24 in the area called Packy's. Where is that from 25 you? 87 1 MS. ATKINS: That, again, would probably 2 be a about block-and-a-half, maybe almost two 3 blocks south. 4 MR. ARENA: Now, I noticed that your 5 house faces to the north, the front of your house 6 which would be your front door? 7 MS. ATKINS: Correct, and that's where 8 the people park. 9 MR. ARENA: And do you witness people 10 coming out the front of Jersey's and walking down 11 the block and around the corner? 12 MS. ATKINS: I witness people coming and 13 going to Jersey's. And sometimes they try to go 14 through the parking lot thinking that there is a 15 point of entry to Howell Avenue, and then they end 16 up coming back around, because it's all fenced in. 17 So they are going there. 18 MR. ARENA: People would be going that 19 way to go to Packy's also, correct? 20 MS. ATKINS: But the Packy's patrons 21 don't park over there. It's only her patrons that 22 park over on Norwich Street. The Packy's, they 23 park further south. I never -- we never have any 24 problem with them. 25 MR. ARENA: You're aware that there is 88 1 permission to use the bank parking lot? 2 MS. ATKINS: Not that particular bank 3 parking lot. The US Bank is directly across the 4 street from that parking lot that's next to my 5 home. The US Bank has given permission for them 6 to use it. And we've encouraged them to try to 7 tell their patrons to use that parking lot rather 8 than parking on the street, so that they won't 9 disturb the neighbors, and we've asked them to 10 put, even post signs. 11 MS. ELLIOT: There are signs. 12 MS. ATKINS: And I've had different 13 responses: one was that they weren't going to do 14 that, that they would do it verbally; the other 15 one was, "Oh, yeah that's a good idea." But then 16 when I followed up on it, as far as I know, it 17 wasn't posted. So if it is, that's great. But 18 people are for whatever reason, are not opting to 19 use that parking lot. 20 MR. ARENA: Have you phoned a complain 21 to this person? 22 MS. ATKINS: And there are sometimes 23 people who were there in the parking lot, I don't 24 mean to say that there is never anyone. But for 25 the most part, they park in the street. 89 1 MR. ARENA: There is a Chinese 2 restaurant and a place called Sukiyakis, I 3 believe? 4 MS. ATKINS: Right. 5 MR. ARENA: Do people ever park and go 6 to those places? 7 MS. ATKINS: No, not that I've seen. 8 There is a parking lot, I believe, at the Chinese 9 restaurant. 10 MR. ARENA: Do you monitor and watch the 11 parking lot at all hours to determine where these 12 people are coming from? 13 MS. ATKINS: No, I don't. But if I am 14 disturbed, I do look. And there are times when 15 I'm outside. I'm a gardener, so I'm outside a 16 lot. I like to be outdoors. 17 MR. ARENA: I would presume that would 18 be during daylight hours? 19 MS. ATKINS: But even evening, in the 20 evening, towards the evening, especially in the 21 summer months. It's, you know, light longer. So, 22 yes, I'm aware. 23 MR. ARENA: Now, you said that there was 24 an ongoing problem with a lack of cooperation. 25 Were you aware that another neighbor of yours, I 90 1 think it's Ms. Hanson, had asked that events at 2 4014, 4014 being used regularly, cease because it 3 bothered her? 4 MS. ATKINS: No. 5 MR. ARENA: Would you agree that 4014 is 6 rarely open, that it is open now for only private 7 parties and small events? 8 MS. ATKINS: No, not necessarily. I 9 mean, I'm not watching it all of the time, but I 10 do come and go, I shop and go to church, and I go 11 by there all the time when they leave the door 12 open. 13 And I also have seen people on the 14 sidewalk between the two buildings, and I'm not 15 even aware that the deck, as you've indicated, is 16 adjacent to that building. I've never -- from 17 where I'm looking, my point of view, it doesn't 18 look like it's accessible any other way than going 19 around the side, but I could be wrong. 20 MR. ARENA: And that's because you've 21 never gone into the establishment, right? 22 MS. ATKINS: No, I haven't. 23 MR. ARENA: Have you ever been on the 24 deck? 25 MS. ATKINS: No. 91 1 MR. ARENA: You've never been in the 2 establishment to see who is actually in charge and 3 running the day-to-day operations, have you? 4 MS. ATKINS: No, I haven't. 5 MR. ARENA: No further questions. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Zielinski. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: When was the first 8 time you saw Ms. Elliot? 9 MS. ATKINS: Here, at the one hearing 10 that I was at. 11 MR. ARENA: I'm going to object, you 12 know, it's irrelevant. She said she's never been 13 in there. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You know what? You know 15 what, I'm going to allow the question. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Yeah. The reason 17 why I asked the question is that Ms. Elliot could 18 have taken the proactive approach and approached 19 this lady if she was active in the bar. She 20 didn't go to her house. 21 Was there anybody else who represented 22 themselves as being from Jersey's Pub to your 23 house? 24 MS. ATKINS: I -- 25 MR. ARENA: I have to object, 92 1 Mr. Chairman. You know, we're here on a notice 2 that talks about noise and nuisance problems. And 3 there is nothing that requires an owner to go door 4 to door. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman. 6 MR. ARENA: There is nothing -- this 7 does not cover that. The notice does not cover 8 any of these questions. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman, it 10 does cover these questions because a collusive 11 agreement is included in the notice. And I think 12 that if this individual is the licensee, she would 13 be going around instead of designating this other 14 person who people have been told is the real owner 15 and operator of the facility. So this is very 16 relevant to the issue at hand. 17 I have no further questions. The point 18 has been made, clearly made. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Thank you, 20 ma'am. 21 Next witness, please, 22 MR. MURPHY: Pat Murphy, I live at 4021 23 South Burrell. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman, how 25 much time do we have? 93 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Don't know because it 2 was erased off. 3 MR. ARENA: It's your lucky day. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: It was under 12 minutes. 5 I will allot adequate time, Alderman, okay. 6 MR. ARENA: I think it's been at least 7 29 minutes. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I think 29 minutes was 9 your questions alone here, Mr. Arena. 10 I'm not even going to guess. I'm going 11 to surmise this questioning is not going to take 12 long. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I'm going to be 14 quick. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We're not even close. 16 We're not even close to allotting 30 minutes of 17 individual time. I don't count the questions. I 18 don't count the retort questions, so we have not 19 gone anywhere near. The first witness actually 20 went to 21 minutes with her testimony, and that's 21 because I kept the clock running on additional 22 time because once she was asked a question, she 23 went on and provided a lot of individual testimony 24 over and over again. And at some point, once you 25 ask a yes or no question, she goes, "Yes," and 94 1 then she's providing three minutes of testimony, 2 boom, the clock goes running. So the fact of the 3 matter was, the last witness provided, on her own 4 volition, maybe about three to four minutes of 5 personal testimony. We have about 15 minutes. 6 I'm going to count it around that time. 7 I didn't turn it off. The clock was 8 shut off. We have enough time, Alderman, to have 9 him ask the questions and allow you to make more 10 than a five- or ten-minute closing statement. I'm 11 certain of it, okay. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sir, you may start. 14 MR. MURPHY: Since they have taken over, 15 when Rodney came to our house expressing that he 16 is the operations manager, any problems -- 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sir, I'm sorry, name and 18 home address for the record, please. 19 MR. ARENA: He gave that already. 20 MR. MURPHY: I already gave that. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: State it again, please. 22 MR. MURPHY: Pat Murphy, 4021 South 23 Burrell. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Go ahead. 25 MR. MURPHY: First, when the license was 95 1 changed over, Rodney had come to the house, 2 expressed that he is the new operations manager, 3 any problems, give him a call, talk with him, 4 he'll work with us. Since they have been in 5 there, I've tried to talk to Rodney a couple 6 times, went into the bar a couple nights when it 7 was 11:00, 11:30 at night telling him that it's 8 pretty loud, please quiet down. And he just said, 9 "We can do it. That's what we do. It's a bar. 10 You're going to have to deal with it." 11 I've got to get up at 5:30 in the 12 morning to go to work. I don't need to listen to 13 a bar until 2:30; it's crazy. I go to work, I'm 14 tired. Like Denise has said, you go to work, 15 you're tired, you're not doing a good job. 16 This was the first summer I was able to 17 sit in my backyard and enjoy it, the first summer 18 I haven't had plants in my garden busted because 19 of volleyballs flying over the fence. It was a 20 good summer until they got back on that deck. The 21 first day they got back on that deck, it was loud 22 until 12:00 at night. Last I understood, BOZA had 23 them at 8:30 at night, which was somewhat 24 tolerable, but I still like to use my yard; I 25 can't use my yard. 96 1 As far as the people parking there, 2 every once in a while, if they have a party in the 3 party bar there and park down our street, it's 4 hard to park. 5 You know, since they've -- Christina, 6 the first time we met her was last year at the 7 hearing. I didn't know who she was. I'm like, 8 "Who is this person?" You know, if a bar has a 9 problem, you'd think the owner would want to take 10 time to come around to the neighborhood and find 11 out what the problems are, you know. Our door is 12 always there, you can come knock on my door, and 13 I'll talk with you. But nobody's ever come over 14 other than Rodney. And to find out that Rodney is 15 -- last year at the hearing, she said Rodney was 16 out of the bar, he is no picture in the bar, he's 17 nothing with the bar, he was a mistake. Rodney 18 never left the bar. She said under oath last year 19 at this hearing that Rodney was a mistake, that 20 the bikini wash was a mistake, you know, she 21 should have never had him do that, you know, that 22 that wasn't very good taste. That's what we've 23 been dealing with with this bar for four years. 24 As far as the loud noise, they'll open 25 the door on the side of the building and the back 97 1 of the building. I'd have to sit and listen to 2 their music. I have a radio in my garage, I can't 3 hear it because their music is over my radio in my 4 garage. It's just, I don't need the headache 5 anymore. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Murphy, how much of 7 what you testified to has transpired in the last 8 year? And it is really important for this 9 Committee, because last year, this bar was given a 10 45-day suspension based on a certain level of 11 complaint. What this Committee can consider is 12 one-year windows, so everything from that point, 13 they get the penalty. It's like if you had a kid 14 and your kid did something wrong and you grounded 15 your kid for a week. Six months later, the kid 16 does something wrong, you don't turn around and 17 say, "Well, hey, six months ago, you did this 18 wrong, so because of this and this, now I'm going 19 to --" The Committee can consider the last year. 20 So I mean, some of the testimony that's been 21 provided by you and the two other neighbors thus 22 far is, we had this in the past, and this occurred 23 based on that. I really need for you to narrow 24 down how much of this -- 25 MR. MURPHY: As far as the music, it was 98 1 all summer that they'd open the doors up. People 2 weren't out on the deck, because they couldn't be 3 out there, but they had the doors open, that I 4 could hear their music, you know. And they opened 5 up the back kitchen door, and that blares right 6 down by my garage. And that's all I hear is their 7 music. 8 And then when they, even late at night 9 they're burning tires, revving up the bikes, and, 10 you know, they'll say it's Rookies and that, I can 11 tell it's right behind my house. 12 You know, the problems that were 13 happening last year are still going on, so nothing 14 has changed. So obviously, the 45-day sentence 15 didn't give them any learning ability. You'd 16 think during that 45 days she would have came over 17 and tried to straighten things out. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And you're on -- you 19 reside on Burrell? 20 MR. MURPHY: 4021 South Burrell, right 21 behind the volleyball courts. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So you are the block 23 that's east of this? 24 MR. MURPHY: Yes. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Thank you. 99 1 Other questions by Committee? 2 Mr. Arena. 3 MR. ARENA: You are the spouse of the 4 first witness? 5 MR. MURPHY: Yes, I am. 6 MR. ARENA: And you have joined her and 7 would join her in calling the police on any 8 disturbance that you received from this 9 establishment? 10 MR. MURPHY: If I feel it's out of hand, 11 yeah. If I'm up at 11:30 at night trying to 12 sleep, yes. If my neighbor was doing it, I would 13 call on them. 14 MR. ARENA: You're aware that the police 15 have made regular visits in response to certain 16 calls that you've made and have not issued 17 citations for noise nuisances, correct? 18 MR. MURPHY: They have gone there and 19 found the noise nuisances, though. 20 MR. ARENA: Have they ever -- 21 MR. MURPHY: And a lot of times, it's 22 two, three hours later and the noises are gone. 23 MR. ARENA: Now, you said that you can't 24 enjoy your yard. You have a dog that you walk 25 regularly through the neighborhood, correct? 100 1 MR. MURPHY: I usually head further east 2 and go south, and then I'll come down Howell on my 3 way home. 4 MR. ARENA: Do you ever walk that dog 5 past Jersey's -- 6 MR. MURPHY: Yes. 7 MR. ARENA: -- on Howell Avenue? 8 MR. MURPHY: Yes. 9 MR. ARENA: Did you have any contact 10 with this Mr. Las individual this year? Has he 11 come to your house and talked to you? 12 MR. MURPHY: As a matter of fact, he 13 talked to me at Southridge Mall. I was going over 14 to get lunch, and he had -- he was in a Jeep with 15 a couple of buddies, and he said he's from 16 Jersey's Pub. 17 MR. ARENA: But he didn't come to your 18 house? 19 MR. MURPHY: No. 20 MR. ARENA: And you have a real problem 21 with this individual, right? 22 MR. MURPHY: Not with Rodney at all, 23 just the practice of business he runs. 24 MR. ARENA: And that's based on he told 25 you that he runs this business? 101 1 MR. MURPHY: Right, so if he is not 2 running it -- 3 MR. ARENA: Have you ever seen Ms. 4 Elliot when you're walking your dog? 5 MR. MURPHY: No. 6 MR. ARENA: Have you ever seen any of 7 the other employees while you're walking your dog? 8 MR. MURPHY: No, I don't go in the bar; 9 I walk by the bar. 10 MR. ARENA: And you look in the bar, and 11 you look for something that you can call the 12 police on, like somebody smoking? 13 MR. MURPHY: No, I don't. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Objection, Mr. 15 Chair, he's continuing the same line. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yeah, Mr. Arena, is 17 there something that's related to this? 18 MR. ARENA: This summer, you did sit in 19 your backyard and volleyball was not played, 20 correct? 21 MR. MURPHY: Correct, it was quiet. 22 MR. ARENA: And you did state that you 23 can tell when something happens at 4014 because 24 cars are parked closer to your home? 25 MR. MURPHY: If there is a big party and 102 1 the bar is full, yes, they'll park all the way 2 around on Burrell Street. 3 MR. ARENA: How many times did that 4 happen? 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Arena, please move 6 closer to the mic. 7 MR. ARENA: How many times did you make 8 that observation? 9 MR. MURPHY: Two, three times at least 10 this summer, I've had that. 11 MR. ARENA: Did you ever call the police 12 on a parking violation in front of your house? 13 MR. MURPHY: No. 14 MR. ARENA: Or bring that issue up to 15 the police? 16 MR. MURPHY: No. 17 MR. ARENA: No further questions. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Zielinski. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I don't have any 20 questions. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mr. Murphy. 22 All right, were there any other 23 individuals here who are here to testify in 24 opposition to? 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman. 103 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Zielinski. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: What I'd like to do 3 at this time is play a video from the last -- just 4 about one minute, from our last meeting where it 5 was made abundantly clear that Mr. Las was not 6 going to have anything to do with this bar, so. 7 MR. ARENA: Mr. Chairman, I think I 8 really have to object to this. What are we 9 rehashing, an issue on last year's meeting, number 10 one? And number two, I don't think it's prima 11 facie, a prima facie case has been brought forth 12 that Mr. Las has had anything to do with anything 13 this year. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman, I 15 think it's clear from the testimony, the 16 appearance before BOZA, my personal communication 17 with Mr. Las. 18 During the last year, I've not had even 19 one contact with this individual. It's been Mr. 20 Las' contacting with me on a regular basis. The 21 reason I want to play this and the reason why -- 22 MS. ELLIOT: At your request. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: -- and the reason 24 why this is relevant is that it was made very 25 clear last year, and I believe that's one of the 104 1 reasons why they only got a 45-day suspension, is 2 they blamed all of the problems on Rodney Las. 3 And they told the Committee that he was not going 4 to have anything to do with this business anymore, 5 and he just continued about business as usual. 6 And that's why I want the Committee to hear it. 7 It goes to credibility. 8 MR. ARENA: On October 29th, this 9 individual met with that individual. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Arena, I do realize 11 that, but, you know -- 12 MR. ARENA: Well, I -- you know -- 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I promise you, I will 14 provide you an opportunity. I just want to say 15 that if you were in a court of law, you would ask, 16 you would ask for recognition of the judge, or the 17 judge would recognize you. In this Committee, 18 that's how it works. I will provide you a retort, 19 I promise you. Pecking order is, I recognize 20 Alderwoman Coggs first. 21 MR. ARENA: The problem is -- 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'll provide you an 23 opportunity. Hold on, no. 24 MR. ARENA: This was my objection to him 25 playing this tape. 105 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The tape is not being 2 played right now at this point. She is eliciting 3 a question, and I want to hear what she has to say 4 first. I will -- before we hit anything on the 5 tape or make anything part of our record, I would 6 need to first make that part of the record and 7 there would have to be a vote by this Committee. 8 So I will hear from you before that decision is 9 made to even make a motion before there is ever a 10 decision to even play the tape. So let's just, 11 let me recognize Alderwoman Coggs first. I will 12 certainly get to you before anything is done with 13 regard to either a motion or the tape playing. 14 Alderwoman Coggs. 15 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I mean, I remember 16 the meeting, so I remember what was said. So I 17 guess my question is to Ms. Elliot or her 18 attorney. So is it you alls' assertion that Mr. 19 Las is not and has not been in the last involved 20 with the management and/or ownership of Jersey's? 21 MR. ARENA: He was involved in a little, 22 in a limited basis. And we have plenty of 23 employees here that will testify that he did help 24 out with tasks. He was not involved with the 25 management. And, in fact, one of our witnesses 106 1 that was here who had to leave was his probation 2 officer. He is currently revoked. And it will be 3 impossible for him to be involved for the next 4 year, so that's not even an issue anymore, but -- 5 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: What was the date of 6 the BOZA hearing that he did represent the 7 Jersey's at? 8 MR. ARENA: It was in the spring of the 9 year. I don't know, you'd have to check the 10 record. I was present. I was there, but I don't 11 recall the exact date. It was well before the 12 summer. 13 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Is he still doing 14 tasks? 15 MR. ARENA: Is he still doing what? 16 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: You said he sometimes 17 does tasks, is he still doing tasks for Jersey's? 18 MR. ARENA: No. 19 MS. ELLIOT: He is incarcerated. 20 MR. ARENA: He's in jail. 21 MS. ELLIOT: He's been revoked. 22 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Oh, that is what you 23 meant by revoked. 24 MS. ELLIOT: Long gone. 25 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: When did he get 107 1 revoked, or when did he stop working? Doing 2 tasks, when did that stop? 3 MS. ELLIOT: He drove the shuttle bus 4 during the summertime, so when the summer was 5 over, that's when he stopped really coming around. 6 I believe it was the end of October, early 7 November. 8 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 9 MS. ELLIOT: I know his official 10 revocation date was November 20th, but he was 11 taken in before that. 12 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 13 MS. ELLIOT: The lady sitting directly 14 behind me that was here with the identification 15 on, she had to go, that was his PO. And she was 16 here to testify that it was against his rules, it 17 was in violation for him to be near there, that 18 there is a restraining order, that there is a 19 revocation. 20 And that, yes, at one point in time, 21 when the neighbors had said that they had no 22 problem with Mr. Las, but they didn't want to deal 23 with me, I was trying to make peace. So I also 24 was speaking with Mr. Zielinski, he said I was too 25 emotional at the last hearing. 108 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I never said that. 2 MS. ELLIOT: Yes, you did. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No, I didn't. 4 MS. ELLIOT: You said it to me. And you 5 said you only wanted to talk to Rodney. 6 MR. ZIELINSKI: Oh, my God. 7 MS. ELLIOT: And you told it to Attorney 8 Halbrooks as well. I have the cell phone records 9 between you and Rodney. I have my cell phone 10 records where you never returned my calls. And 11 that's why I had my attorney represent me when I 12 came to meet with you at your office because it 13 was the only way that I could get a response from 14 you, Mr. Zielinski. 15 I have put audio and visual recordings 16 outside, so there are cameras outside on the deck 17 in front of both bars, security has been hired. 18 And if you give me any date, any time -- the 19 police officers that are here on subpoena have 20 come, if you look at all of the 57 pages from the 21 calls from the neighbors, they are all within 22 minutes of them getting to the bar, where video 23 was played back for them. I have offered to give 24 any DVR recording on any date at any time to show 25 who was in the bar, who was running the bar. 109 1 This entire side of the room is full of 2 my employees, people that live right directly next 3 door to Jersey's that are businessowners and that 4 live in the neighborhood. 5 I have no problem answering any 6 questions that you have for me. And I will tell 7 you nothing but the truth. I've tried to make 8 peace. I've tried to work things out. When it 9 didn't work out, I got rid of him. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 11 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: You answered the one 12 question. 13 MS. ELLIOT: That's it. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Stephens, I don't 15 know if this is a red herring or not here. I 16 honesty don't. The one thing that I know is true 17 is there is something that makes, an individual 18 may say is a desired practice or best practice, 19 but I don't think that there is any law that 20 requires an individual who owns a bar for being 21 present there every day and/or any day, is there? 22 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: There is -- 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If they hire a manager 24 and work with that manager, are they required by 25 law to be present there? As long as they 110 1 ascertain the profits and ultimately the 2 culpability that falls on that individual? I 3 mean, I have, for example, I have a Taco Bell in 4 my district where the management is located in 5 Madison. And I happen to know the owner never 6 shows up in Milwaukee, perhaps maybe once or twice 7 a year, but has a general manager, has a manager 8 that runs it, and may be on the phone with that 9 general manager on a daily or weekly or twice a 10 week basis. Is there anything by law that 11 requires an individual applicant to be present on 12 the site, to be the person that deals directly 13 with neighbors, outside of best practices or 14 desire of what may be conducive? 15 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: If someone is going 16 to be managing a licensed premise, they need to 17 have a manager -- 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The manager's license, 19 correct, no doubt. 20 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Clearly, I don't 21 think there is any requirement that requires 22 licensees to make contact with neighbors. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Right. 24 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: But I think -- 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If they do have a 111 1 spokesperson who is claiming to do that and is 2 essentially running the show of the day-to-day 3 operations, that person should have a manager's 4 license. 5 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Correct, running the 6 day-to-day operations. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: But short of that, I 8 mean, I just want to say because you asked the 9 question. The answer, other than ideally, nothing 10 is required by law that says that that individual 11 must be present. I could purchase, investment in 12 a bar in Chicago and go there two or three times a 13 year where the neighbors necessarily don't see me 14 and could be the owner where the profits come to 15 me, I could be the person signing the checks to 16 all the payroll that is electronically handled. 17 And I could have a manager, or whatever else, 18 running the show there. As I said, small 19 potatoes, small neighborhood bar, ideal, but the 20 word ideal between ideal and legal is a fine 21 distinction, just to answer that question. 22 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderwoman Coggs. 24 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: The Chairman is 25 correct, but I just want to say for the viewing 112 1 public. Part of the reason, at least for me, I 2 don't know, I can't speak for all of the 3 Committee, part of reason though that I'm even 4 indulging in listening to the conversation about 5 this manager is because of the allegations of 6 collusion, to look at the level of actual 7 involvement, or not into, to examine it completely 8 and some of the other evidence that was presented 9 to us in our E-Book. So it's at issue here, not 10 because of the legal requirements, but because of 11 the suggestion of there being a collusive 12 agreement. Thank you. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Is that a motion to 14 accept the tape as submitted as evidence here? I 15 mean, if we are going to watch it, then it should 16 be. 17 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Yes, I'll move. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Then the motion will be 19 made by Alderman Kovac to accept the tape provided 20 by Alderman Zielinski and make that a part of our 21 official record in this proceeding. Are there any 22 objections to that? Applicants notwithstanding, 23 hearing none, so ordered then. 24 MR. ARENA: I already objected to it. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And your objection will 113 1 be duly noted for the record, Mr. Arena. 2 MR. ARENA: I was just explaining that 3 to her. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. 5 (Video being viewed.) 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I just wanted to 7 get it in the record. If you want to continue -- 8 I just wanted to get it in the record that they 9 made it very clear at the last hearing that Mr. 10 Las, especially after the domestic violence 11 complaint was issued against him by Ms. Elliot, 12 that he was not going to have anything to do with 13 the bar and said that she does not want to have 14 anything to do with him, and then business went 15 back as usual. And the reason why that is 16 significant is that he has enormous control over 17 her. He is a convicted felon; he can't get a 18 license on his own. And I think based on the 19 totality, and I'll -- based on the totality of the 20 evidence and people from our Licenses Division and 21 the firsthand testimony provided, he holds an 22 enormous amount of control over this lady. And 23 even though he may be locked up right now because 24 of a violation of his parole, he is still going to 25 have, you know, control from behind the scenes. 114 1 And I'm concerned about that neighborhood, and I'm 2 concerned about that bar, and that's why this is 3 all relevant. 4 MR. ARENA: Mr. Chairman, I have to 5 object. Is that the closing argument we're 6 hearing now? 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No, I just was 8 saying -- 9 MR. ARENA: That is why -- 10 THE COURT REPORTER: I need one at a 11 time. 12 MR. ARENA: He got his video into 13 evidence; that's the evidence, not his testimony 14 and argument that he wants to make from that 15 evidence. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Zielinski, did 17 you want to call the -- 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Yes. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- Ms. Wagner. 20 And Ms. Wagner, you're already under 21 oath. Was there additional testimony that you 22 wanted to provide here? Go ahead. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. You are Ms. 24 -- we have two exhibits here of people with 25 experience. The first person I'd like to speak 115 1 with is Barbara Ethridge first, and then I would 2 like to call Ms. Wagner. 3 Ms Ethridge, please come forward, 4 please. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Barbara, if you could 6 use the standing microphone here. And we will 7 also swear you in as well too, please. 8 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 9 the pains and penalties of perjury of the State of 10 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 11 is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 12 truth? 13 MS. ETHRIDGE: Yes. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And Barbara, we'll need 16 your name and your position here at the Licenses 17 Division. 18 MS. ETHRIDGE: Barbara Ethridge, I'm a 19 customer service representative for the Licenses 20 Division. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Ms. 23 Ethridge, I have in front me Exhibit No. 10. And 24 in here, it's a memo from you to Mr. Pfaff, and 25 I'd like to read it, "When Christina came in to 116 1 pick up an envelope that was left at the front 2 desk by Julie, she was upset because she said she 3 was --" 4 MR. ARENA: Mr. Chairman, this is 5 improper direct examination. You can't read a 6 statement into the record. She is here to testify 7 to the statement. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Well, I don't see 9 anything improper about reading the statement that 10 this individual wrote. I want to ask her if what 11 I'm reading is what she wrote. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Stephens is 13 suggesting to have her testify. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. I'll have 15 her read it then. 16 Could you please read the memo that you 17 submitted? 18 MS. ETHRIDGE: Yes. 19 MR. ARENA: She can't read the memo word 20 for word into the record. She can use it to 21 refresh her recollection, that's it. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay, fine. Use 23 your own words. 24 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Stephens. 117 1 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: If the witness could 2 just lead -- if foundation can be led for when 3 this witness had contact, apparently with the 4 licensee, to describe when that happened and what 5 the subject matter of the discussion was would be 6 the way to do that. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Ma'am, when did you 8 have contact with the licensee, Ms. Elliot? 9 MS. ETHRIDGE: About maybe six months 10 ago. Well, this is dated July 21st, so it was 11 sometime before that. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 13 MS. ETHRIDGE: A day or two before that. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So you had contact 15 with her at that time. And the memo in front you 16 is basically a synopsis of what took place during 17 your conversation with that individual? 18 MS. ETHRIDGE: Right. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Can you tell us in 20 your own words basically what took place at that 21 point in time approximately six month ago? 22 MS. ETHRIDGE: Okay. There was an 23 envelope left for her by one of our specialists at 24 the front desk for her to pick up. She came in. 25 She was very upset. She said she no longer was 118 1 involved in the business and hadn't been for 2 months. She didn't even know why she should have 3 to go through any of this, like coming down and 4 picking up things regarding the business. Began 5 crying and sniffle -- 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: She was what, 7 crying and sniffling? 8 MS. ETHRIDGE: Yeah, mm mm. And told me 9 that every part of the business was controlled by 10 him. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: By "him," who is 12 that? 13 MS. ETHRIDGE: Her ex-fiance'. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Who's him, what's 15 his name? 16 MS. ETHRIDGE: She didn't say his name, 17 she just said he was her fiance', her ex-fiance'. 18 And, well, she said that they had been 19 engaged when they got the business, and that it 20 was an abusive relationship. 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Now, did you know 22 her? Do you have any reason to lie about the 23 conversation that took place? 24 MS. ETHRIDGE: No, I don't. I have no 25 reason to lie. 119 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No reason, okay. 2 And how many years have you worked for the City in 3 the Licensing Division? 4 MS. ETHRIDGE: I've worked in the 5 Licensing Division for about four years, I think. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Four years, okay. 7 That is all of the questions I have at this time. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by Committee? 9 Mr. Arena. 10 MR. ARENA: Good afternoon, Ms. 11 Ethridge. Now, you have -- you were working at 12 the front desk that day, correct? 13 MS. ETHRIDGE: Yes. 14 MR. ARENA: And there was an envelope 15 for Ms. Elliot to pick up? 16 MS. ETHRIDGE: Right. 17 MR. ARENA: Do you know what the 18 contents, or what that envelope was about? 19 MS. ETHRIDGE: No, it was a sealed 20 envelope. 21 MR. ARENA: Were you made privy or was 22 there any discussion that Mr. Lee in your office 23 was somewhat involved in and around July? Who is 24 Mr. Lee? 25 MS. ETHRIDGE: Mr. Lee, that would be 120 1 Chris Lee, our Class B specialist. But the 2 envelope was not left there by Mr. Lee; it was 3 left by Julie, who is also an alcohol specialist. 4 MR. ARENA: Who asked you to write this 5 e-mail concerning this interaction you had that 6 day with Ms. Elliot? 7 MS. ETHRIDGE: I think I indicated to my 8 coordinator the confusion of what happened, and I 9 think she mentioned it to our managers, and they 10 requested that I, you know, e-mail exactly what 11 took place. 12 MR. ARENA: Now, is what really happened 13 here is that Mr. Lee gave a statement that there 14 was an extension of premise for the deck and the 15 deck was a legal use, and now that was determined 16 to be improper or wrong information from Mr. 17 Pfaff, or higher-up staff in your office, and now 18 there was a discussion as to what was going on 19 with Jersey's? 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Could you restate that? 21 Because you lost me on that one. 22 MR. ARENA: I'll break it up. 23 There was an issue concerning whether or 24 not the deck had an extension of premises, are you 25 aware of that? 121 1 MS. ETHRIDGE: No, I'm not. 2 MR. ARENA: Were you aware that Mr. Lee 3 gave an opinion to somebody at the police 4 department possibly, and at Jersey's, that there 5 was an extension of premises granted that included 6 the deck? 7 MS. ETHRIDGE: I have no knowledge of 8 that. 9 MR. ARENA: And so, you decided just out 10 of the blue that you're going to tell somebody 11 about this interaction with Christina Elliot? 12 MS. ETHRIDGE: As I previously stated, I 13 mentioned it to my supervisor and she, in turn, 14 mentioned it to our managers. Because, you know, 15 we very seldom get customers who come in crying, 16 and so they, you know, she -- they requested, she 17 asked me to just put in writing what had taken 18 place, that's it. 19 MR. ARENA: Okay. Now, she was crying 20 and she was under some stress, and her question 21 was why it was that somebody else couldn't pick 22 this up for her, and she specifically asked -- 23 MS. ETHRIDGE: She said why did she have 24 to pick it up because she no longer had anything 25 to do with the business. 122 1 MR. ARENA: Her inquiry was whether or 2 not somebody else could get permission to pick 3 something up that was for her, correct? 4 MS. ETHRIDGE: No. 5 MR. ARENA: Well, you just said that 6 that's what it was, but then you added that she 7 mentioned that she didn't know why she was picking 8 it up because she was no longer in the business. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No, I think you said 10 that, Mr. Arena. 11 MS. ETHRIDGE: I -- 12 MR. ARENA: No, she specifically said 13 that. 14 MS. ETHRIDGE: No, I didn't say that. 15 MR. ARENA: Yes, you did. 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: I heard something like 17 that. 18 MR. ARENA: What she said was, yes, she 19 made, first inquired as to whether or not -- I'll 20 ask you again, she could appoint somebody else to 21 come pick something up for her? That was her 22 inquiry. 23 MS. ETHRIDGE: I never made that 24 statement. 25 MR. ARENA: I'm sorry, I flipped off the 123 1 page here. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Is this Exhibit 10? 3 MR. ARENA: Is that the number? I 4 didn't even look at the number. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And Alderwoman Coggs 6 would move to make Exhibit 10 part of our official 7 record in this proceeding. Hearing no objections 8 to that, so ordered. 9 MR. ARENA: I have no further questions. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No questions. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Ms. Wagner. 13 MS. WAGNER: Would you just like me 14 to -- 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Yes, please state 16 for the Committee when you first made contact with 17 Ms. Elliot, approximately how long ago was that, 18 what were the circumstances, and basically, what 19 took place during that communication. 20 MS. WAGNER: I'm real foggy on how long 21 ago it was, a month-and-a-half maybe. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: A month-and-a-half 23 or so ago. 24 MS. WAGNER: Yeah. I normally don't 25 deal with the customers directly, but Chris Lee 124 1 had asked me if I could take care of the customer 2 because when she called earlier, as Chris said, 3 she was upset. I went out, and Christina was 4 there, and she needed a duplicate renewal 5 application, so I put that together for her. And 6 because nothing was filled out, I had her sit out 7 in the waiting area and fill that out. And then 8 when she was finished, Barbara gave me a call, and 9 I came back out. But she had mentioned that she 10 wanted to add an officer onto the license. So I 11 had told her if you're going to add someone onto 12 the license, you need additional paperwork. So I 13 gave her this additional paperwork, and I said, 14 well, before I can take anything, we need this 15 other person's signature and them to fill things 16 out. So she had given the person who she wanted 17 to appoint a phone call, and this was Rodney Las. 18 And I know this because I brought her into my 19 office and we were waiting for him to come. And 20 we were waiting, and it was taking quite a while 21 and it was about 4:30-ish. So as we're waiting, I 22 don't remember if she, I believe she called him to 23 ask him where he was. I didn't hear exactly what 24 he said on the other line, but he was on his way. 25 And after she hung up with him, she was crying and 125 1 very, very upset. She said that he was yelling at 2 her. This is when she mentioned -- maybe not in 3 this exact order -- that they were engaged, he was 4 abusive and hit her, so that was, you know, called 5 off. 6 She, again, was very upset he was on his 7 way. We waited, you know, had some conversations 8 you know, just waiting for him to come in. When 9 he did get there, and she kind of, you know, said 10 to him that she was going to add him, my feeling 11 was that he was trying to persuade her not to add 12 him onto the license. They didn't end up filing, 13 she did not end up filing the renewal that day 14 because time kind of ran out, and it was kind of 15 like, well, why don't you take this and think 16 about it, what to do. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Did she say 18 anything about trying to make things right? 19 MS. WAGNER: Yes, she did. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Can you go into a 21 little more detail about that? 22 MS. WAGNER: Because I had kind of had 23 -- as we were waiting for him, you know, the file 24 was there, and kind of, we're talking about, you 25 know, you'll probably have to appear before the 126 1 Committee, there are neighborhood issues. And we 2 talked about this because this is all, you know, 3 open records. And I had said, you know, I had 4 just stated, you know, the impression is that he 5 is running the business, and she had said, "Yeah, 6 I know. I want to make things right." 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. So by that, 8 by putting him on the application, she would be 9 making it right? 10 MS. WAGNER: That was definitely my 11 interpretation, yes. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. That's all 13 of the questions I have. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by Committee? 15 Ms. Wagner, again, could you clarify, 16 she was seeking to add him as an officer to the 17 corporation? 18 MS. WAGNER: Right. I believe it's an 19 LLC or a corporation right now, and she's the 20 agent and officer, and she wanted to add him on as 21 an officer. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Would that require, 23 wouldn't that require that he be a registered 24 shareholder with the LLC with the State Department 25 of Revenue, or the State of Wisconsin? I don't 127 1 know what other financial institution holds those 2 records. 3 MS. WAGNER: I'm not exactly sure how -- 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Wouldn't that, Mr. 5 Stephens? 6 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: No, actually not. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No. 8 MR. ARENA: It's an LLC, it would be a 9 member, and you're not required to disclose who 10 the members of the LLC are. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. All right. Other 12 questions by Committee? 13 Mr. Arena, questions? 14 MR. ARENA: Ms. Wagner, your statement 15 was that you got this impression. This was an 16 impression that you had, correct? 17 MS. WAGNER: An impression about what 18 exactly? 19 MR. ARENA: Something in reference to, 20 "she wanted to make something right?" 21 MS. WAGNER: She said she wanted to make 22 things right. And this was directly after saying 23 that she wanted to add him onto the application 24 and after we had talked about the impression is 25 that he is running the business. 128 1 MR. ARENA: That's your impression that 2 he was running the business, right? 3 MS. WAGNER: This -- I had talked to her 4 about that was the impression that neighbors were 5 having and that our office was getting. And then 6 the statements -- 7 MR. ARENA: Okay. So there were some 8 impressions out there that he was running the 9 business; not your impression? 10 MS. WAGNER: Well, from all of the phone 11 calls from neighbors and other departments, that 12 is my impression, yes. 13 MR. ARENA: And your impression is based 14 on hearsay; things that other people told you? 15 MS. WAGNER: And her being in the office 16 saying, "I want to make things right." I don't 17 know what else that could mean. 18 MR. ARENA: What does it mean, that you 19 want to make things right? 20 MS. WAGNER: She wants to add him as an 21 officer because she wants to make things right. 22 MR. ARENA: Could that possibly mean in 23 their relationship or in the -- 24 MS. WAGNER: No, I don't believe so. 25 MR. ARENA: Does that mean necessarily 129 1 that he is the one actually running it at that 2 point in time that she said that? Maybe she is 3 making a change at that point in time. You don't 4 know, do you? 5 MS. WAGNER: I believe what I said. I 6 believe what I said. 7 MR. ARENA: Why don't you believe that 8 she is the boss? Because he also told her, "Well, 9 you're the boss, it's your decision." But you 10 discount that part of it, don't you? 11 MS. WAGNER: Mr. Arena, she was in my 12 office for a lengthy amount of time crying and 13 very upset. And I generally feel she was afraid 14 of him, and she was torn between wanting to do 15 what was right and not getting him angry. 16 MR. ARENA: Those are your feelings and 17 your -- 18 MS. WAGNER: Definitely. 19 MR. ARENA: And he also said to her, and 20 this is from your e-mail or what statement that 21 you wrote to, I believe, Ms. Grill in your office, 22 he told her that it was up to her, she is the 23 boss. 24 MS. WAGNER: Well, sure, he is not going 25 to say -- 130 1 MR. ARENA: But he said that, right? 2 MS. WAGNER: Well, sure, he did. 3 MR. ARENA: You've never been in 4 Jersey's, have you? 5 MS. WAGNER: No, I haven't. 6 MR. ARENA: You've never seen a check 7 that's been written by Jersey's, have you? 8 MS. WAGNER: We don't have a customer in 9 our office every day crying and upset, you know. 10 MR. ARENA: In fact, she came in and 11 filed a renewal application and paid with a check 12 from Jersey's that she signed "Christina Elliot," 13 correct? 14 MS. WAGNER: Sure, but what does that 15 prove? 16 MR. ARENA: What do your impressions 17 prove then? 18 MS. WAGNER: Well, why was she in my 19 office crying and saying she wanted to make things 20 right? What other impression can you get? 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I have no further 22 questions. I think it's abundantly clear for 23 everyone. 24 MS. WAGNER: I think so too. It's 25 ridiculous. 131 1 MR. ARENA: I have to move to strike her 2 last, "I think so too." 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well -- 4 MS. WAGNER: She is -- I'm sorry, Mr. 5 Chair, she has been making -- 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Ms. Wagner. 7 MS. WAGNER: -- comments through the 8 whole meeting. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Ms. Wagner, I know, it 10 is on the record, if it's heard on the record. 11 That will be stricken. All right. 12 Okay, Mr. Arena, I guess other than 13 Alderman Zielinski's brief closing here, the floor 14 is yours at this point here, so you can call your 15 witnesses however you want. 16 MR. ARENA: At the start, I wanted to 17 submit a couple of exhibits. The first exhibit, 18 whether you watch it or not, it's up to you. I 19 would submit that it supports that Christina is in 20 charge. It's a news story from Channel 4 News 21 when she was interviewed in regards to the 22 location receiving a blue ribbon award for 23 cleanliness. That would be the first item that I 24 would submit. 25 The next item that I'm going to 132 1 submit -- 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac would 3 move to make this disc provided by Mr. Arena part 4 of our official record in this proceeding. Are 5 there any objections to that? Hearing no 6 objections, so ordered. 7 MR. ARENA: Now, I've also issued a 8 subpoena to two individuals from that station. 9 They did provide me with this and said that they 10 would rather not be here, so. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: It actually -- I, under 12 the advice of our assistant city attorney, 13 rescinded that subpoena because of a recent change 14 in state law. 15 And Mr. Stephens, maybe you could just 16 very briefly provide some explanation to that. 17 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: That is correct. We 18 were contacted by the attorneys from Journal 19 Communications yesterday morning. And based upon 20 the Statute 885.14 regarding subpoenaing news 21 persons, I advised the chairman that he could 22 rescind the subpoenas that were issued, and he did 23 so. 24 MR. ARENA: Okay. Thank you. It sure 25 would have been nice if somebody would have given 133 1 me notice of that, but I had already spoken to 2 those people. So I'm asking that the CD be 3 accepted. The second item -- 4 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Let me clarify. 5 MR. ARENA: I think -- 6 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Excuse me, I think 7 counsel was informed of that. That was issued in 8 an e-mail that the Chair sent. Was that not the 9 case? Mr. Arena was one of the copied members. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't recall. 11 MR. ARENA: Well, anybody -- the worst 12 way to get to me is through e-mail. 13 MS. ELLIOT: I can vouch. 14 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Twitter? 15 MR. ARENA: For insurance purposes, my 16 insurance company doesn't even want me to go 17 through e-mail. 18 MS. ELLIOT: Snail mail. 19 ALDERMAN KOVAC: I was just kidding. 20 MR. ARENA: The second item is a CAD 21 report, which is relevant for several of the next 22 witnesses which we'll be bringing forward. I only 23 have two copies of it. My intention is to provide 24 the copy of this to each of the witnesses as they 25 come forward. And I have one copy for the 134 1 committee. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman, I 3 have a question about the CAD reports he wants to 4 admit into evidence. I believe the Committee has 5 had a practice as far as credibility or the 6 admissibility of CAD reports, and I really don't 7 see the relevancy of that. So I would object to 8 the admission of the CAD reports. 9 MR. ARENA: The problem is the CAD 10 reports are a business record, and they establish 11 dates and times and actions taken by witnesses 12 that are going to testify as to those. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: You can have 14 witnesses testify without the CAD reports. 15 MR. ARENA: His witnesses testified with 16 refreshing their recollection from e-mails, which 17 is also hearsay. But there is a business record 18 exception for this anyway. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: There is, Alderman, and 20 -- 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: That's fine. 22 That's fine. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Alderman 24 Kovac would move to make the packet of computer 25 aided dispatch reports by Mr. Arena as part of our 135 1 official record in this proceeding. And hearing 2 no objection to that, so ordered. 3 I hope that you will lay the foundation 4 and relevance for each of those then, Mr. Arena, 5 when the time comes. 6 MR. ARENA: Captain Young. 7 AUDIENCE MEMBER: He stepped out. 8 MR. ARENA: Well, Tyler Kirkvold. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And if someone else 10 could -- Sergeant MacGillis, if you could retrieve 11 Captain Young, please? 12 SGT. MACGILLIS: Certainly. 13 MR. ARENA: Could you state your name? 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Officer, you were sworn 15 in, is that correct? 16 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Yes, sir. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If you could provide us 18 your name and your position with the police 19 department, please? 20 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I'm a police officer. 21 My name is Tyler Kirkvold, K-I-R-K-V-O-L-D. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And you are out of which 23 department? 24 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: District 6th, 25 Milwaukee Police Department. 136 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 2 Proceed, Mr. Arena. 3 MR. ARENA: Now, what are your duties in 4 District 6 of the Police Department? 5 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I'm assigned to the 6 tavern car. 7 MR. ARENA: And what does the tavern car 8 do? 9 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: We check licensing 10 issues on taverns within our district, respond to 11 any problems that arise at these taverns. 12 MR. ARENA: Now, you're aware of the 13 location of 4014/4024 South Howell Avenue, 14 correct? 15 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Yes, sir. 16 MR. ARENA: And that is a location that 17 is a Class B Licensed establishment? 18 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: That's correct. 19 MR. ARENA: And it's known as Jersey's? 20 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Yes, sir. 21 MR. ARENA: Do you know who the person 22 is sitting to my right? 23 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I do. 24 MR. ARENA: And how do you know her? 25 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: She is the license 137 1 holder, primary Class B License holder of the 2 establishment. 3 MR. ARENA: Do you know her name? 4 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Christina Elliot. 5 MR. ARENA: Have you had an opportunity 6 to speak to Ms. Elliot in regards to operations at 7 4014/4024 South Howell Avenue? 8 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I believe on the 9 phone. 10 MR. ARENA: And what was the nature of 11 that conversation, can you recall? 12 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: The only time I can 13 remember having to contact her is when I issued 14 the citation for the violation of the use of the 15 deck and the licensed premise report that followed 16 that issuance of a citation. 17 MR. ARENA: Now, in your position as the 18 tavern squad, were you asked by anybody to do 19 specific business or tavern checks of 4014/4024 20 South Howell? 21 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Not specific checks, 22 no. 23 MR. ARENA: Now, I have provided to you 24 a CAD report, which you have in your hand? 25 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Mm mm. 138 1 MR. ARENA: And they -- you're familiar 2 with how to read a CAD report, I presume, correct? 3 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Yes, sir. 4 MR. ARENA: And do you understand what 5 the numbers and the entries mean? 6 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Yes. 7 MR. ARENA: I have with me a key here, 8 if at any time that you need that to assist you, 9 if you could let me know, please? 10 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Okay. 11 MR. ARENA: Can I direct your attention 12 to March 18, 2010? And they do go in order, so it 13 should be quite easy to find. It's about the 14 fifth page, I believe. Do you see that, March 18, 15 2010? 16 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I do not. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman, could 18 I be provided a copy of that? It's kind of 19 difficult to follow without having anything in 20 front of me. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Then we're going to go 22 into recess and make a photocopy, and I don't mind 23 that. Recess. 24 (Recess taken.) 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We're in resumption. 139 1 Mr. Arena, the floor is yours. 2 MR. ARENA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 3 Okay. In the interest of brevity, I'm 4 going to cut to the chase on some of these issues 5 because we have some limited time here. Now, I've 6 provided you with some CAD reports. As the tavern 7 squad officer, you've been to Jersey's often over 8 the last year, right? 9 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: That's correct. 10 MR. ARENA: Typically, what is it that 11 you're looking for when you go to the place? 12 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Any problems inside, 13 any violations of the tavern. 14 MR. ARENA: You actually go inside, 15 right? 16 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: That's correct. 17 MR. ARENA: Have you ever gone there in 18 response to a complaint for noise? 19 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Yes. 20 MR. ARENA: At what time of day was 21 that? 22 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I can't give you an 23 exact time, but I know definitely after 7:00 p.m., 24 before bar closing time, during my shift. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Arena, please use 140 1 the microphone. I'm sorry. 2 MR. ARENA: What would be your general 3 observation when you are going to check on a noise 4 violation, for example? 5 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Generally, I would 6 look for loud music. 7 MR. ARENA: And when you went to 8 Jersey's specifically for that purpose, did you 9 observe loud music? 10 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: On one occasion, I 11 did, yes. 12 MR. ARENA: Did you issue a citation? 13 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I did not end up 14 issuing a citation. 15 MR. ARENA: You're aware of what the 16 requirements are in the city ordinance to issue a 17 noise nuisance citation, correct? 18 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Yes, I am. 19 MR. ARENA: You have to, I believe, hear 20 the music from 50 feet away? 21 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: That's correct. 22 MR. ARENA: On that one occasion, did 23 you hear the music from 50 feet away? 24 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I did. 25 MR. ARENA: And do you know when that 141 1 was? 2 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I don't recall. 3 MR. ARENA: Now, in your other general 4 tavern checks, and I'll, for example, just point 5 you to Page 26, it involves June 9th. And try to 6 keep those in order because you have people 7 following you. What time of day did you go do 8 that tavern check? 9 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: 11:49 is when it was 10 created, we -- yeah, at 11:49. 11 MR. ARENA: Did you notice anything out 12 of the ordinary that would issue a citation that 13 day? 14 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: No, I did not. 15 MR. ARENA: Generally, and I know you 16 may not be able to specifically recall, generally 17 do you see unruly patrons in Jersey's? 18 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: No, I do not. 19 MR. ARENA: Typically, how many patrons 20 are in Jersey's when you do a tavern check? 21 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Depends on the day, 22 if it's a weekday, there is less; if it's a 23 weekend, there is more. I'd say anywhere from 10 24 to 20. 25 MR. ARENA: And do you find that the 142 1 music that's being played is unreasonably loud? 2 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: If it can't be heard 3 from more than 50 feet away from the outside of 4 the bar then I guess it's not unreasonably loud 5 according to the ordinances. 6 MR. ARENA: And you yourself have not 7 issued a noise citation for Jersey's in your 8 recollection, correct? 9 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: That's correct. 10 MR. ARENA: Now, can you tell us a 11 little bit about Jersey's? The deck area, the 12 deck connects two buildings, correct? 13 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: That's correct. 14 MR. ARENA: Could you describe that? 15 Can you enter 4014 off the deck between the two 16 buildings? 17 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I don't know. 18 MR. ARENA: Have you ever been inside 19 4014? Have you done a tavern check there? 20 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: On one occasion, yes. 21 It's not open as often as Jersey's is. 22 MR. ARENA: Now, is it safe to say that 23 you've done about 15 tavern checks at Jersey's 24 over the last year since about March? 25 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Sounds about right, 143 1 approximately. 2 MR. ARENA: Now, in and around July 21st 3 -- strike that. 4 On July 17th, you had written an e-mail 5 to Tony Zielinski, the alderman of the 14th 6 District. Prior to July 17th, had you had contact 7 with the alderman's office? 8 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: No, I did not. I 9 don't believe so. 10 MR. ARENA: Why is it that you would 11 have written this e-mail directly to Alderman 12 Zielinski? 13 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Because I was ordered 14 to by a superior officer. 15 MR. ARENA: And that was in regard to 16 whether or not the use of the deck was a legal use 17 granted under the extension of premises, correct? 18 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Correct. 19 MR. ARENA: Now, earlier in June, you 20 went and investigated that issue. There was a 21 complaint about the deck being used and it 22 shouldn't have been used, correct? 23 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: That's correct. 24 MR. ARENA: And who made that complaint, 25 do you know? 144 1 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Mrs. Murphy. 2 MR. ARENA: And do you know who Mrs. 3 Murphy is? 4 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I do. 5 MR. ARENA: And how do you know her? 6 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I spoke to her on 7 several occasions regarding violations at 8 Jersey's. 9 MR. ARENA: And did you go and speak to 10 her at her residence? 11 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I did on one 12 occasion. 13 MR. ARENA: And was that on an occasion 14 that involved patrons on the deck? 15 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I don't recall which 16 time, I just know I had been to her house once. 17 MR. ARENA: Was she -- did she ever 18 become upset with you that you didn't issue a 19 citation to Jersey's for any violation that she 20 believed that she reported? 21 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: No, she's never been 22 upset with me. 23 MR. ARENA: Have you had any 24 instructions from your captain to pay close 25 attention or be close to Jersey's due to calls 145 1 that come from the neighbors about Jersey's and 2 you want to get there and determine that the calls 3 are valid? 4 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: From supervisors, 5 yes; not just my captain, but my sergeant as well. 6 MR. ARENA: And what is the nature of -- 7 what did they tell you, and why -- what is it that 8 they want you to do? 9 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Just to keep an eye 10 on the tavern and make sure that these violations 11 aren't occurring, and if they are, to take 12 appropriate action. 13 MR. ARENA: For example, do you know if 14 there had ever been two tavern checks in one 15 evening? 16 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I don't know. 17 MR. ARENA: What is your overall 18 impression in your experience in actually going 19 into the tavern? 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman, he 21 has already asked that question. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman, it's on his 23 time. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 146 1 Go ahead, Mr. Arena. 2 MR. ARENA: As to how the patrons act 3 and behave, you know, how this tavern is operated? 4 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: While police are 5 inside of the tavern? 6 MR. ARENA: Based on what you've 7 witnessed. 8 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: On what I've 9 witnessed when I'm inside the tavern, I've had no 10 issues with patrons. 11 MR. ARENA: And do you think that the 12 management is in control of the premises, or as in 13 control of the premises as any other licensed 14 establishment? 15 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Yes. 16 MR. ARENA: Have you ever met or seen or 17 spoke to a gentleman named Rodney Las? 18 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I'm sure I have. 19 MR. ARENA: Do you know who he is? 20 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I can't put a face to 21 the name. 22 MR. ARENA: No further questions. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by Committee? 24 Officer, you've indicated that you have 25 made maybe about 15 visits to this location, I 147 1 think that was your testimony? 2 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Probably, 3 approximately 15. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And that would be in the 5 last year, roughly? 6 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Probably, yes. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: During each of those 8 visits, do you go inside the property? 9 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: The majority of the 10 time we do, yes. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Have you seen Ms. Elliot 12 in the bar on any of those occasions to your 13 recollection? 14 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Not that I recall. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. And Mr. Las? 16 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Like I said, I can't 17 put a face to the name, but I've heard his name in 18 the bar and people talking about him. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Do you typically just go 20 to a bartender then? 21 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: That's correct. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Just somebody, "Is there 23 a bartender here? Do you have a license?" Kind 24 of look around to see if anything is unusual, if 25 it's loud; otherwise, if everything is okay, "Good 148 1 to see ya," out the door? 2 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Pretty much what it 3 is. We check all of the licenses. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions by 5 Committee? 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Just one last 7 question. I'm very sensitive of the time of the 8 Committee so I just have one question. 9 Officer, when you went into the Jersey's 10 Pub and you were inquiring and investigating a 11 complaint about the use of the deck, did you talk 12 to a bartender and the bartender had indicated 13 that they received approval to use the deck? 14 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: That's correct. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: And who did the 16 bartender say gave him the authority or said it 17 was okay to use the deck? 18 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I believe they told 19 me that the DNS had given them authority. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: DNS, okay. So the 21 bartender said that the Department of Neighborhood 22 Services told him directly, or did they go through 23 the upper-level management and told them that? 24 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I don't recall. All 25 I remember is them saying that they went to a 149 1 meeting somewhere with DNS members, and they were 2 told that they could use the deck. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So when he told you 4 that, did you say, "Well, I need to hold off on 5 issuing you a citation to confirm that that's 6 accurate, and if it's not accurate, I'm going to 7 be issuing you a citation"? 8 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I did. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: And did you get a 10 confirmation that DNS told him or told them that 11 they could use the deck? 12 MR. ARENA: You know, I'm going to have 13 to make a technical objection here because this 14 involves a citation that was issued that was found 15 to be a legal use. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: The point is, they 17 were lying. That's what I'm trying to establish; 18 the credibility. I believe if he answers the way 19 based on the information I have, that they lied to 20 him. 21 Did you go back and issue a citation 22 because DNS did not give them approval to use the 23 deck? 24 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: That's correct. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. So 150 1 originally, they told you DNS gave approval, you 2 said, "Fine, I'm not going to issue the citation, 3 I'm going to check with DNS." You checked with 4 DNS, they said, "We did not give approval," and 5 you went back and issued a citation? 6 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: That's correct. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. So they 8 weren't being forthright with the police 9 department. Thank you. 10 MR. ARENA: I have to object to that 11 last statement. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Well, I don't know, 13 literally -- 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, hold on. 15 The issue of the dismissal, was the 16 issue over whether or not -- 17 MR. ARENA: Yes, it was. I was the 18 attorney that represented them. I'll tell you 19 what the issue was. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, you didn't even 21 let me finish the question here. You said "yes" 22 to what? Was the issue a question of occupancy, 23 or was it the question of whether or not there was 24 a valid extension of premise? 25 MR. ARENA: The question was whether or 151 1 not there was a valid extension of the premise. 2 Department of Neighborhood Services, through Mr. 3 Ron Roberts, came up with the -- how I would term 4 it, is the creative argument that because of the 5 BOZA application said "the volleyball court and 6 deck," that that automatically meant that a 7 special use permit was required to use the deck. 8 That is not logical. Because if that were the 9 case, you'd have to have a special use permit to 10 open the bar. Because, after all, the volleyball 11 court is part of the deck, which is part of the 12 bar. You could carry that out to, if you had a 13 multiple-storied bar, you would say, "Well, if the 14 first floor isn't open, the second floor can't be 15 open." 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, I mean, does this 17 boil down to the fact that this Council last year 18 took away the ability to have volleyball? I'm 19 going to guess it does. Was that not removed from 20 part of the plan of operation? 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman, I can 22 answer your question. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Zielinski. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: The point I'm 25 trying to make is that they lied to the police 152 1 officer. They said that DNS -- this is prior to 2 the court hearing. Granted, they did challenge it 3 in court at a later point in time, and they 4 prevailed in court. But at this point in time, 5 they started using it without approval. They 6 indicated to the officer that they got approval 7 from DNS, he held off issuing the citation to 8 confirm that with DNS. DNS confirmed that they 9 did not say it was okay to use that deck, and he 10 came back and issued the ticket. The point is 11 that they deliberately flat out lied to the police 12 officers. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: How did it go before DNS 14 in the first place, the deck? 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Because they were 16 -- because they weren't supposed to be using it, 17 and they weren't using it beforehand. It was only 18 when they started to use it and they challenged it 19 in municipal court that they were able to -- 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No, I mean -- 21 MR. ARENA: They challenged both 22 citations. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The volleyball court is 24 what should have been in question; not the deck. 25 If the deck got rolled in legally and was being 153 1 challenged, Alderman, I think that there's sort of 2 a slippery slope of adding a second element that, 3 frankly, wasn't necessarily a valid argument to 4 add. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: The point is, he 6 testified, Mr. Chairman, they told him they got 7 approval when they didn't get approval. That's 8 the point I'm trying to make 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Ms. Grill, what did we 10 do last year? 11 MS. GRILL: Last year there was a 45-day 12 suspension. I have a note on here that the 13 Department of Neighborhood Services placarded the 14 outdoor areas saying that a BOZA was required. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Outdoor areas. 16 MS. GRILL: So to me, that would mean 17 all of the outdoor areas including the volleyball 18 court and the deck. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: But they have -- do they 20 already hold a valid extension of premise for the 21 deck? 22 MS. GRILL: That just allows the 23 alcohol. If you don't have the occupancy, you 24 can't serve alcohol there regardless of whether, 25 we, the Council, gave permission or not. 154 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sure. 2 MS. GRILL: So if you don't have one, 3 you can't have the other. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: But there is -- I agree 5 with you, but there is one problem because that 6 deck actually represents the entrance to the bar, 7 does it not? And if you can't occupy the deck, 8 which means you can't even walk on it, then you 9 can't get into the building. 10 MS. ELLIOT: Exactly. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm just saying. I 12 know, I understand, Ms. Grill, but there is some 13 real -- I don't know if strings were being pulled, 14 but that's my impression, that strings were being 15 pulled to get BOZA to play, or to get DNS to play 16 hardball. 17 MS. GRILL: I believe that -- 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm just telling you, I 19 believe strongly -- because you know what? I know 20 that when you actually want to do it, I can call 21 DNS and I can say, "I want you in that place. I 22 want you examining that yard." And they will have 23 inspectors up the wazoo. And they can make it a 24 little difficult at times and play hardball. I'm 25 just giving you the strong impression that I think 155 1 it's illogical to yank an occupancy for a deck 2 that actually -- because an occupancy actually 3 says nobody can even walk on it, nobody can do 4 anything. "Occupy" means you can't even be 5 present on or near, which means if that is the 6 entrance to the bar, you can't even -- no, you 7 know what? You've got to fly over the deck into 8 the door. 9 MS. ELLIOT: Or close. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't need any 11 commentary from you. 12 MR. ARENA: You have to stop, Christina. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: That's absurd. As 14 absurd as the ramp issue is. I mean, I'm telling 15 you, the commissioner needs to actually make a 16 call to me because I'm going to want to know the 17 issue of why we're throwing ourselves open for a 18 legal haranguing over issues of ADA and access. 19 It just -- if they are going to do things 20 logically, that make sense, I could totally 21 understand the issue of the yard, but if this is 22 actually the front entrance to the bar -- 23 MS. GRILL: No. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: It's not? 25 MS. GRILL: No. 156 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Where is the entrance to 2 the bar? 3 MS. GRILL: I have a floor plan. I 4 haven't been to this location -- 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, the photo, the 6 photo that we saw -- can Channel 25 throw the 7 photo that they had -- 8 MR. ARENA: That is the -- 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- where we had a deck. 10 MS. ELLIOT: It's all one piece. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Is that somehow an 12 entrance there? 13 MS. ELLIOT: Yes, that's the front 14 entrance. 15 MS. GRILL: This is the front entrance, 16 so next to there should be the deck. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I know, but, Ms. Grill, 18 anything that is wood -- what do we call the front 19 there? I'm going to guess that's all part of the 20 deck. 21 MS. ELLIOT: It's all one piece. 22 MS. GRILL: Mr. Chair, that is not how 23 the floor plan was submitted to our office. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: DNS did not placard 25 the entrance to the building, so Mr. Chairman -- 157 1 and I want to add that the city attorney's office 2 signed off on this as well. They said DNS was 3 accurate. So this is not just DNS sticking their 4 neck out; the city attorney's office corroborated. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman, if I can make 6 a clarification, what portion of the deck -- I 7 mean, did DNS delineate and say a side, or -- 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I believe it was 9 just the side portion, not the front. 10 MS. GRILL: Mr. Chair, there is a deck 11 between the two establishments. There is deck 12 right here. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are we talking about two 14 separate decks? 15 MS. GRILL: Separate buildings. 16 MS. ELLIOT: No. 17 MS. GRILL: Well, then this thing that 18 was submitted with the original plan of 19 operation -- 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Let her finish, please. 21 MS. GRILL: -- is incorrect. There is a 22 deck right here. There is a building right here, 23 which I believe is the 4014. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 25 MS. GRILL: And this is 4024. So this 158 1 is the deck that is in question. This entrance is 2 not what's in question. So either this doesn't 3 accurately depict what we're licensing, so it is 4 something that was incorrectly submitted. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Boy, do we recess and 6 all go out to the bar here and have a little field 7 trip? 8 MS. ELLIOT: Come on down. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Because -- thank you, I 10 will. I mean, my impression was that somehow we 11 had a deck that was in the front -- 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No, just the side. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And then meshed between 14 the two, so it does not. 15 MS. ELLIOT: I actually, submitted -- 16 that is the old one that you're showing, I 17 actually submitted with this year's application a 18 very specifically, a very specific detail of the 19 whole piece of the deck. Because as you look on 20 the photo, the front entrance, that's all one wood 21 deck. The planks actually connect from the side 22 deck that you're speaking of to the front deck. 23 It's one deck that connects both of the buildings 24 and the entrances between both of the buildings. 25 And I apologize for speaking out of turn 159 1 before, I just wanted to help you clarify, 2 everyone clarify that it is all one piece. And 3 that in order to enter either of the buildings, 4 you have to be on that wooden ramp. And that 5 wooden ramp is attached to the side deck. And 6 drawn on this piece of paper right here, which 7 this is the old one, the new one, the new one -- 8 because I even drew the actual ramp part of it on 9 there in front where it says "deck," and there's 10 the arrows. You can see where it says "exit" on 11 the one side and "exit" on the other between the 12 two buildings, that's also part of deck, and then 13 the entrance. That's a wood deck right there as 14 well, where those arrows are in front of it. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman, what 16 the clerk is telling you is that the front deck is 17 allowed to be used. The front deck was not 18 placarded by DNS. 19 MS. GRILL: The entrance -- 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Is that -- was that part 21 of the ramp that was raised earlier though? 22 MS. ELLIOT: Yes. And that's what the 23 question was. So if there was no lie to a police 24 officer, we were telling the truth. We showed the 25 license. Which on our liquor license says 160 1 "volleyball court and deck," and that's what we 2 were going by. And that's what I was told. 3 And when I had spoke with DNS, they had 4 given us -- that's when they had admitted to me 5 over the telephone that they had made a mistake 6 with placarding the deck and the volleyball court 7 as one because they acknowledged about the 8 entrance problems. And that's when the placard 9 was then removed. 10 I have jumped through every hoop that 11 they've asked me to. I've -- I had reinspections 12 three times approximately this year by every 13 inspector. Anything that has been asked of me to 14 make things right in any area, any way, shape or 15 form with this deck, with the placard, with 16 anything, to take away elimination of doubts or 17 accusations of not telling the truth, I have done. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chair, my point 19 here is the officer made it very clear that he was 20 going to issue them a citation initially. The 21 bartender said that they received approval from 22 DNS to use it. He says, "I'm not going to issue a 23 citation now. I'm going to check with DNS. They 24 corroborate what you say, you're not going to get 25 a citation." He contacted DNS, they said, "We did 161 1 not give them authority to use the deck." And he 2 went back and issued a citation. 3 Is that correct? 4 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: That's correct. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So they did lie. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 7 MR. ARENA: Can I have a 8 follow-up question of my witness, please? 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead. 10 MR. ARENA: The first time that you were 11 there on this issue, it was explained to you that 12 it was their understanding from Chris Lee in the 13 Licenses Division that they had an extension of 14 premises for the deck, and they showed you the 15 language on the license's that issued that said 16 the Class B premises included the deck? 17 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: That is what I was 18 told. I don't recall seeing -- 19 MR. ARENA: And then -- well, you check 20 the licenses regularly when you do tavern checks? 21 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: The ones posted on 22 the wall. 23 MR. ARENA: The licenses posted on the 24 wall. That is what I'm talking about. 25 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: Right. 162 1 MR. ARENA: You then decided not to 2 issue a citation. And there were some further 3 complaints by neighbors the next day. And were 4 you, in fact, instructed to go back and issue that 5 citation by a superior to yourself in the police 6 department? 7 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: No, I was not. 8 MR. ARENA: But you did go back and 9 issue a citation? 10 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I did. 11 MR. ARENA: Okay. The first time you 12 were there, you believed that there wasn't a 13 violation though based on what was on the wall? 14 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I did not believe 15 that. I believed that I had to investigate it 16 further because I don't believe everything people 17 tell me. 18 MR. ARENA: Well, when you checked the 19 license, and it says -- 20 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: There is no license 21 that says "extension for the deck" on the wall, 22 there is a Class B Tavern License and there are 23 Bartender Licenses, and I don't recall seeing 24 anything about that. I was just asked, told by 25 the bartender that they were permitted to use 163 1 that, and there was some confusion as to if there 2 was a suspended license for the use of that patio 3 or deck, or if they could use it or not. So I 4 said, "I'll find out, and when I do find out, if 5 you guys cannot be using it, I'll issue a 6 citation." 7 MR. ARENA: And subsequent to you 8 issuing that citation, they did, in fact, stop 9 using the deck for the remainder of the summer, 10 correct? 11 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: That's correct. 12 MR. ARENA: And they straightened this 13 issue out with DNS and the powers that be, and 14 they eventually were allowed to use the deck, 15 correct? 16 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I don't know about 17 all of that. I just issued the citation. So I 18 don't -- 19 MR. ARENA: You didn't issue a 20 subsequent citation for that? 21 OFFICER KIRKVOLD: I did not. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Ms. Grill. 23 MS. GRILL: Regarding the clarification 24 of the floor plan. If we would have received a 25 new floor plan, you would have had a change of 164 1 floor plan as part of the application. I cannot 2 locate a new picture here. And, additionally, 3 there was a letter sent from our office on July 4 16th advising the agent that it has come to our 5 attention that due to the expiration of the 6 special use permit, they had to discontinue use of 7 the outdoor volleyball court and deck. And I 8 think that was right around the same time the 9 officer had gone to the location because it seems 10 like the citation -- I don't know when the 11 citation was issued, but the complaint was filed 12 on July 15th and our letter was sent on the 16th. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 14 I mean, that is understandable from the 15 standpoint of extension of premise, which allows 16 you to have the alcoholic beverages out on a deck 17 or walking between buildings on that with an 18 alcoholic beverage. 19 Again, depending on what the nature of 20 the connection of the deck, I'm still going to 21 question an occupancy. I don't know how DNS can 22 separate one contiguous deck. There are plenty of 23 decks that bend around the corner. You don't say 24 that's one deck on this side and the other deck on 25 that side. It's all part of the same deck. Decks 165 1 don't always just stay on one side, some of them 2 bend around buildings, and everything else. I 3 mean, I've never seen DNS rip off and put a, 4 delineate a line here and say, "This portion of 5 the deck is not occupied, but you can occupy that 6 one." That I don't understand. 7 MR. ARENA: I would submit to you, 8 that's what they did. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: The last 10 statement is -- 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: That's amazing to me, 12 but -- 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: -- that they told 14 DNS -- 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We understand. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: -- and found out 17 they didn't say that. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 19 MR. ARENA: I would just also submit to 20 you one other point. When this was litigated in 21 municipal court, the City was represented by an 22 attorney from the city attorney's office who, we 23 went back and forth and had many discussions on 24 this, and the judge had informed him that the 25 City's position was in error. And he agreed to 166 1 actually dismiss these citations without a trial 2 after a long motion was argued to the court. And 3 it involved the very point that you're bring up, 4 Mr. Chairman. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm glad logic prevails 6 somewhere. 7 Next witness if you are finished. 8 MR. ARENA: Yeah. 9 Captain Young. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Can this officer here be 11 dismissed? 12 MR. ARENA: I believe so. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Thank you, 14 officer. I believe that you're here on overtime. 15 CAPTAIN YOUNG: He sure is. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Is this delineated, 17 Captain, out of your individual district budget 18 here? 19 CAPTAIN YOUNG: Yes. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, for you 21 patience. 22 Captain, your name and your position in 23 the department? 24 CAPTAIN YOUNG: Sure. Michael Young, 25 Y-O-U-N-G, captain of the Milwaukee Police 167 1 Department, 6th District. 2 MR. ARENA: Captain Young, have you had 3 occasion to make policy and/or discuss the issue 4 of complaints concerning 4014 and 4024 South 5 Howell Avenue? 6 CAPTAIN YOUNG: Not so much make policy, 7 but I've issued directives. 8 MR. ARENA: What are those directives 9 that you've issued? 10 CAPTAIN YOUNG: Conduct tavern checks on 11 the premise to see if there are noise issues or 12 any type of tavern violations that are going on a 13 that location. 14 MR. ARENA: Why is it that you ask that 15 tavern checks be conducted? 16 CAPTAIN YOUNG: Complaints from 17 citizens. 18 MR. ARENA: Based on the reports that 19 you have back from the tavern checks and checking 20 on these complaints, do you believe that the 21 complaints are necessarily valid at all times? 22 CAPTAIN YOUNG: At all times, no. 23 MR. ARENA: So there's been an occasion 24 where you've found the complaint to be an 25 exaggeration of what was really going on at 4024? 168 1 CAPTAIN YOUNG: I could not -- I 2 couldn't make that distinction sitting in my 3 office. I'm not out there at night. I send the 4 officers there to investigate. Perhaps what was a 5 complaint ceased before the officers arrival. 6 MR. ARENA: Have you had conversations 7 with a neighbor known as Kelly Murphy regarding 8 4024, Jersey's? 9 CAPTAIN YOUNG: I may have. I may have 10 received e-mails. You know, I get about a hundred 11 e-mails a day, and I get lots of phone calls, and 12 I've got a lot of taverns. I do remember that 13 Jersey's was a point of contention particularly 14 last spring and last summer. 15 MR. ARENA: Was the nature of those 16 inquiries by that neighbor that she was interested 17 in having citations issued to Jersey's? 18 CAPTAIN YOUNG: I don't recall. 19 MR. ARENA: Did any neighbor ever 20 contact you and complain about parking issues 21 around that area? 22 CAPTAIN YOUNG: It's possible. 23 MR. ARENA: You don't specifically 24 recall? 25 CAPTAIN YOUNG: Not specifically recall. 169 1 MR. ARENA: No further questions. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by Committee 3 of the Captain? 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No questions. 5 CAPTAIN YOUNG: Good. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Captain, you don't have 7 to stay here anymore either. 8 Mr. Arena. 9 MR. ARENA: I need to go take inventory 10 to see what police officers are left. 11 This is Officer Maduscha, I believe. 12 And I don't know if I'm close to pronouncing that, 13 Maduscha? 14 OFFICER MADUSCHA: No. First name 15 Kristopher, K-R-I-S-T-O-P-H-E-R, last name 16 Maduscha, M-A-D-U-S-C-H-A. 17 MR. ARENA: Wow, I wasn't even close. 18 I believe you have the series of CAD 19 reports that I've provided to Tyler Kirkvold, and 20 did he hand those to you? 21 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Yes, that is correct. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Could you bend the 23 microphone here? 24 OFFICER MADUSCHA: I'm not as tall as 25 the captain. 170 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: That is why he is the 2 captain by the way. 3 MR. ARENA: Now, you are an officer of 4 District 6, or you were an officer at the relevant 5 times over 2010? 6 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Yes, I've been 7 employed at District 6th for five years. 8 MR. ARENA: What is your squad 9 assignment? 10 OFFICER MADUSCHA: The tavern car. 11 MR. ARENA: So many times you're also 12 working with the previous witness, Mr. Kirkvold? 13 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Yes, and then my 14 other partner, Andrew Molina. 15 MR. ARENA: And he is not here today? 16 OFFICER MADUSCHA: No, he is not. 17 MR. ARENA: He's on vacation? 18 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Yes. 19 MR. ARENA: Now, if you could look at 20 Page 6 and give us the date? I believe you did a 21 tavern check on that date, is that correct? It 22 involves March 31, 2010. 23 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Yes. 24 MR. ARENA: And what time did you go do 25 this tavern check? 171 1 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Around 10:30. 2 MR. ARENA: If you could look at the 3 next page. And try to keep those in order for 4 your following people. Page 7, what is the date 5 of that tavern check? 6 OFFICER MADUSCHA: October, oh, no -- 7 MR. ARENA: Isn't it March 12th as well? 8 I have to check and make sure you're looking at 9 it. 10 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Yes. 11 MR. ARENA: So the first two that I've 12 asked you to look at, Page 6 and Page 7, indicates 13 that you did two tavern checks at the same 14 location on that evening, March 23rd, 15 approximately 45 minutes apart? 16 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Correct. 17 MR. ARENA: And what was the disposition 18 of those tavern checks? 19 OFFICER MADUSCHA: C18. 20 MR. ARENA: Which means what, do you 21 know? 22 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Just completed our 23 investigation and everything was in order. 24 MR. ARENA: You didn't issue any 25 violations? 172 1 OFFICER MADUSCHA: No. 2 MR. ARENA: Why would you do a tavern 3 check 45 minutes apart at one location? 4 OFFICER MADUSCHA: The distance between 5 traveling, getting done with one and then 6 traveling to the other tavern. 7 MR. ARENA: Is it common that you go to 8 the same bar twice in one evening? 9 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Twice? 10 MR. ARENA: Both of them are on March 11 23rd, correct? 12 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Actually, what we did 13 was we closed out. I'm indicating on Page 7, we 14 must not have cleared off of our last assignment 15 at Jersey's, and it was tacked onto the check at 16 the Big Mouth Frog, was added on. 17 MR. ARENA: I see, okay. Can you go to 18 Page 9? Did you find it? 19 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Yep. 20 MR. ARENA: Can you give us a date of 21 that tavern check? 22 OFFICER MADUSCHA: 3/28/2010. 23 MR. ARENA: What's the disposition? 24 OFFICER MADUSCHA: C18. 25 MR. ARENA: And go to Page 10, please. 173 1 OFFICER MADUSCHA: C18. 2 MR. ARENA: What's the date of that 3 tavern check? 4 OFFICER MADUSCHA: The next day. The 5 following day, 3/29/2010. 6 MR. ARENA: And go to Page 13, please. 7 These are dates that you were present, you did the 8 tavern checks, correct? 9 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Correct. 10 MR. ARENA: On -- are you on April 4th? 11 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Correct. 12 MR. ARENA: What is the disposition of 13 your tavern check? 14 OFFICER MADUSCHA: C18. 15 MR. ARENA: Go to Page 15, please. 16 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Page 15. 17 MR. ARENA: What is the date of that 18 tavern check? 19 OFFICER MADUSCHA: April 14, 2010, at 20 12:02 a.m. 21 MR. ARENA: What is the disposition? 22 OFFICER MADUSCHA: C18. 23 MR. ARENA: Do you recall that night at 24 all? 25 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Not that I recall, 174 1 no. 2 MR. ARENA: When you do a tavern check, 3 while approaching the location, do you listen for 4 noise from 50 feet away to see if you're going to 5 issue a noise complaint? 6 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Yes, before we go 7 into the tavern. And we drive around the block to 8 see if we can hear music more than 50 feet away, 9 and then we walk up from a distance. 10 MR. ARENA: Okay. Can you go to Page 11 19, please? 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Arena, just so you 13 are aware, you're under 11 minutes now. I'm just 14 making you aware of that. 15 MR. ARENA: Okay. 16 Now on the 19th, did you have a 17 conversation with Christina Elliot? 18 OFFICER MADUSCHA: I believe my partner, 19 Andrew Molina, did, if I recall, on that day. 20 MR. ARENA: Were you present and 21 witnessed that? 22 OFFICER MADUSCHA: I was present, but I 23 didn't -- wasn't listening into that conversation 24 that they were having. 25 MR. ARENA: Do you know who Christina 175 1 Elliot is, the person sitting next to me? 2 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Yes, I do. 3 MR. ARENA: Have you had contact with 4 her? 5 OFFICER MADUSCHA: That is the only 6 previous time I had contact with her was at that 7 incident on that day. 8 MR. ARENA: Now, on Page 21 and 22, was 9 that a day, on 5/15, that you went there and did 10 two tavern checks in the same evening? 11 OFFICER MADUSCHA: 21 and 22, Pages? 12 MR. ARENA: Yes. 13 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Yes. 14 MR. ARENA: By my count, I believe 15 you've done about 17 tavern checks at this 16 location? 17 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Correct. 18 MR. ARENA: And sometimes, at least on 19 one occasion in May, you were there two times in 20 one evening, correct? 21 OFFICER MADUSCHA: That is correct. 22 MR. ARENA: Do you find in your 23 experience and contact with this location that 24 customers are loud, unruly? 25 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Not as you're inside 176 1 the tavern. Occasionally, you have the straggler, 2 customer that comes out and is loud and obnoxious, 3 and we try to curb that. I mean, every other bar, 4 you're going to have that. 5 MR. ARENA: So that's nothing unique to 6 Jersey's? 7 OFFICER MADUSCHA: No. 8 MR. ARENA: I believe you haven't issued 9 any citations at any of your tavern checks or 10 contacts with this location, correct? 11 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Negative. 12 MR. ARENA: And have they been 13 cooperative with any of your requests that you've 14 made of them? 15 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Yes. 16 MR. ARENA: No further questions. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by Committee? 18 Officer, how do you pronounce your last 19 name? 20 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Maduscha. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Maduscha. Officer 22 Maduscha, you indicated you are in the tavern car 23 for District 6? 24 OFFICER MADUSCHA: That is correct. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: For an average 177 1 run-of-the-mill tavern in the district, how often, 2 how frequently as an average, would you say, that 3 you make a visit to a tavern on a routine basis? 4 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Is that any tavern? 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yeah. 6 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Basically, that's 7 what we do is probably two to three. And then if 8 we have --. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Two to three an evening? 10 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Yes. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So if you were given, 12 throughout the entire district, if you were to 13 take any one bar, one tavern, one nightclub, 14 unless there were problems where you may be 15 visiting it more frequently, just on a proactive 16 basis, would it be fair to say that you visit it 17 perhaps once a month, once every two weeks? 18 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Probably once a 19 month. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Once a month. I mean, 21 that's -- 22 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Basically, we try to 23 -- that's what we do. We go check the taverns, 24 like, basically, go inside and make sure 25 everything is okay with the patrons. And then we 178 1 drive around the other taverns and make sure there 2 is no noise nuisances. So we do, basically, drive 3 by some of the other taverns. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. I mean, that's 5 sort of been the experience that I've had, at 6 least with the taverns in my district. They 7 welcome police officers coming in more often, 8 periodic, roughly, every three weeks or so, on an 9 average basis. 10 When I'm looking at these, I see at 11 least your name associated with a tavern check on 12 March 23rd. Then at least, I guess, for one of 13 your prospective partners, Andrew Molina, who is 14 not present, on the 26th; Officer Molina on the 15 27th; you on the 28th; you on the 29th. How 16 unusual is that? I mean, you tell me once every 17 three weeks. I mean, we have bing, bing, bing, 18 bing, bing; day after day after day after day 19 after day. 20 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Yes. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm surmising as an 22 alderman that you do that when I get on the phone 23 with the captain and say, "Captain Young, I want 24 you at this place here checking it routinely," 25 and/or you'd have a lot of neighbors that are 179 1 calling in a massive way saying, "Major problem, 2 let's apply the heat. Let's check this 3 routinely." I mean, would that normally be the 4 course of -- 5 OFFICER MADUSCHA: I'd say that's mostly 6 complaints from citizens around the neighborhood. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: A little more 8 proactively just because -- 9 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Yes. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- to ensure that you're 11 either keeping the peace and/or that we're -- that 12 way the Captain can respond to the citizen and 13 say, "Hey, we're doing active checks." 14 OFFICER MADUSCHA: That is correct. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Now, during your 16 experience on those, you've indicated that you did 17 not write violations, or you don't recall, at 18 least, on the portions that you've been there, 19 that there's been any, you know, activity or 20 inadvertent activity that was in need of a 21 violation? 22 OFFICER MADUSCHA: No. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No citations 24 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Not anything besides 25 the deck violation. 180 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Were you present with 2 that one then too? 3 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Yes, I was. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Very good, 5 thank you for the follow-up. 6 Any other questions by Committee? 7 MR. ARENA: I think I have just one 8 question. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Chairman. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No, Alderman. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: For expediency of 12 the Committee, I didn't ask any questions. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman, Alderman, hold 14 on. Don't debate back. Look at my finger. You 15 know what? If he wants to ask him 16 eight-and-a-half more minutes' worth of questions, 17 he's out of time. Why would you argue with that? 18 Mr. Arena, the floor is yours. I'll hit 19 the button as soon as you start talking. 20 MR. ARENA: Can I have 30 minutes to 21 collect my thoughts? 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yeah, exactly, yeah. 23 MR. ARENA: You generally would agree 24 that there is nothing unusual that you've 25 witnessed going on at Jersey's? 181 1 OFFICER MADUSCHA: I'm sorry? 2 MR. ARENA: There is nothing unusual 3 going on at Jersey's that's different than any 4 other location? 5 OFFICER MADUSCHA: No. 6 MR. ARENA: I have no further questions. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, officer. And 8 officer, you're dismissed as well too. 9 OFFICER MADUSCHA: Thank you. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Arena, you're at 11 8:07. 12 MR. ARENA: Conrad. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Good evening, officer. 14 OFFICER CONRAD: Good evening. My name 15 is Linda Conrad, L-I-N-D-A C-O-N-R-A-D. 16 MR. ARENA: You work in District 6th as 17 well? 18 OFFICER CONRAD: I'm a Milwaukee police 19 officer, patrol officer for the District 6th late 20 shift. 21 MR. ARENA: You had to go to Rookies 22 (sic) on a noise nuisance violation on August 1st, 23 Page 36 in the packet. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Hold on, hold on. We'll 25 get that. 182 1 MS. ELLIOT: It was running towards 2 paperwork. It's good. Sorry. 3 MR. ARENA: Nobody brought me a Coke. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Proceed. 5 MR. ARENA: On August 1st, it's Page 36 6 there, you responded to a noise nuisance 7 complaint. 8 OFFICER CONRAD: Correct. 9 MR. ARENA: And can you tell us anything 10 about that that you recall going on there that 11 evening? 12 OFFICER CONRAD: Yes, it says that I was 13 dispatched. I'm sure that I was sent there. 14 MR. ARENA: Did you issue a citation for 15 a noise nuisance? 16 OFFICER CONRAD: I did not. 17 MR. ARENA: Can you tell us from the CAD 18 report there, how long it took from the time that 19 the complaint came until you arrived on scene? 20 OFFICER CONRAD: It was created at one 21 minute after midnight, and I arrived 28 minutes 22 later. 23 MR. ARENA: What information were you 24 provided in regards to that complaint? 25 OFFICER CONRAD: That there was eight 183 1 people standing outside of the bar drinking 2 alcohol and making noise. 3 MR. ARENA: And, first of all, would it 4 be illegal at that time for somebody to be outside 5 of the bar on the deck? 6 OFFICER CONRAD: On the sidewalk. 7 MR. ARENA: Did you find anybody on the 8 sidewalk? 9 OFFICER CONRAD: I did not. 10 MR. ARENA: Now, if I could refer you to 11 Page 48. Are you dispatched to Rookies (sic) on 12 that day, September 14th? 13 OFFICER CONRAD: Affirmative. 14 MR. ARENA: And there was a complaint of 15 loud patrons or music? 16 OFFICER CONRAD: That's correct. 17 MR. ARENA: And how long did it take you 18 to get there from the time that the call came in 19 until when you arrived? 20 OFFICER CONRAD: Three minutes. 21 MR. ARENA: And when you arrived three 22 minutes after that call came -- why -- did you 23 just happen to be that close? 24 OFFICER CONRAD: Well, I'm in my squad 25 area. I might have been driving down Howell at 184 1 that particular time, so I could have been close 2 by. 3 MR. ARENA: Did you notice any loud 4 patrons or music? 5 OFFICER CONRAD: Upon arrival? 6 MR. ARENA: Yes. 7 OFFICER CONRAD: I did not. 8 MR. ARENA: And that was three minutes 9 later? 10 OFFICER CONRAD: That's correct. 11 MR. ARENA: And you've had contact with 12 the neighbor known as Kelly Murphy complaining 13 about loud patrons on the deck, correct? 14 OFFICER CONRAD: I don't recall the 15 name. I don't have my memo book with me for that 16 date, but I did talk with a neighbor. 17 MR. ARENA: Okay. You had contact with 18 her and informed her that you had determined that 19 the use of the deck was appropriate, or allowed, 20 is that right? 21 OFFICER CONRAD: Well, she had stated 22 there was people on the deck drinking and smoking. 23 And I observed two people on the ramp, at the 24 north corner from the ramp in front of the bar, 25 and they were smoking. And she had stated in my 185 1 phone call to her after I did my investigation 2 that the people were not allowed on the deck, and 3 that she was going to call her alderman Monday 4 morning. And I told her that I would contact a 5 coworker that is in the captain's car, and he 6 would get the information for me whether they 7 could use the deck or not. So then I checked on 8 that, and then I called her back and let her know 9 that I was told that the deck was allowed to be 10 used. 11 MR. ARENA: Was she upset that you 12 didn't issue a citation for that? 13 OFFICER CONRAD: There was nothing to 14 issue a citation for. She just stated that she 15 was going to call her alderman. And that's all I 16 recall. 17 MR. ARENA: Now, do you know if they 18 play music on the deck? Have you been there 19 enough to know? 20 OFFICER CONRAD: Negative, sir. 21 MR. ARENA: What do you mean by 22 "negative"? 23 OFFICER CONRAD: I never heard any music 24 on the deck; only inside when I walked inside, or 25 if the door is open, someone is exiting. 186 1 MR. ARENA: Have you found that noise 2 from inside to be unreasonable or loud? 3 OFFICER CONRAD: Not beyond 50 feet. 4 MR. ARENA: Now, this is your area you 5 said, meaning you patrol in this area often? 6 OFFICER CONRAD: That's correct. 7 MR. ARENA: Do you notice lots of 8 problems with the way cars are parked in the area? 9 OFFICER CONRAD: No, I do not. 10 MR. ARENA: If you would see a car 11 parked illegally outside of somebody's residence 12 on Norwich, or in the area, would you give it a 13 parking citation? 14 OFFICER CONRAD: Oh, definitely. 15 MR. ARENA: And do you have occasion to 16 give a lot of parking citations around this 17 location? 18 OFFICER CONRAD: No. 19 MR. ARENA: And do you notice a lot of 20 unruly or unreasonable incidents with people 21 leaving Jersey's and being loud in the 22 neighborhood, is that your experience or what 23 you've noticed? 24 OFFICER CONRAD: I don't observe that. 25 MR. ARENA: Would you say that you have 187 1 never observed it, or that it's in your mind not a 2 problem or an issue? 3 OFFICER CONRAD: It's not a problem that 4 I -- I've not observed it. 5 MR. ARENA: Okay. And do you work all 6 days of the week, weekends and -- 7 OFFICER CONRAD: That's correct. 8 MR. ARENA: Okay. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Arena, you're at two 10 minutes. 11 MR. ARENA: Nothing further of the 12 witness. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by Committee? 14 Officer Conrad, what shift are you? 15 OFFICER CONRAD: Late shift, 12:00 to 16 8:00. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So you would -- when you 18 say 12:00 to 8:00, that's 12:00 midnight to 8:00 19 a.m.? 20 OFFICER CONRAD: Correct. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So you would be there 22 during, in or around -- 23 OFFICER CONRAD: Bar close. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Bar close. All right. 25 Any other questions by Committee? 188 1 Alderman Zielinski, any questions? 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No questions. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. And you're 4 dismissed here as well, too. 5 I have 2:12 on the clock, Mr. Arena. 6 MR. ARENA: Okay. I think I'm going to 7 bypass the rest of the officers that are here. I 8 think their testimony would be similar and 9 actually could maybe start to get redundant. In 10 interest of time I'm going to move on, and we're 11 going to call up Cara Gaitens. 12 I'll try to use the microphone. 13 MS. GAITENS: My name is Cara, C-A-R-A, 14 last name Gaitens, G-A-I-T-E-N-S. 15 Can I just talk? It will go fast. 16 MR. ARENA: Sure. 17 MS. GAITENS: All right. My home 18 address is 5020 South Menard Drive, New Berlin, 19 Wisconsin, and my building is 4028/4030 South 20 Howell. 21 Okay, I met Christina, like, the first 22 week she opened. She was the owner. And she was 23 all excited about the new menu. She was telling 24 me about German items on the menu, and that she 25 was going to have parties on the deck with food 189 1 and pub and grill and all of these exciting ideas, 2 okay. 3 And, let's see, my building is about 4 south, what, six feet. 5 MS. ELLIOT: Not even. 6 MR. ARENA: Come on, Christina, don't do 7 that. 8 MS. GAITENS: And I have a two-story 9 building. I have two apartments upstairs, three 10 tenants living there; not made a complaints. I 11 work downstairs right next to their building. I 12 have a door in my office that opens up, yes, I 13 have a door that opens. 14 Okay, I haven't really had any problem 15 with noise. There is noise, but it's not an over 16 abundance of noise. 17 I haven't had problems with patrons. 18 It's a bar, you know, every once in a while you'll 19 see a drunk person possibly, but I really have not 20 had any problems with anyone. 21 My parking lot is right next door to my 22 building. I don't have people from the bar 23 parking in my parking lot, every once in a while, 24 but not a problem. I can call up and say, "Move 25 your car." 190 1 The deck that is in question. I walk 2 outside and walk by there day and night, and there 3 are people out there smoking. I have not 4 witnessed anybody drinking out there. It is just 5 the entrance to the building. Let me see. As for 6 the deck, I really want it to be, go there with my 7 customers this summer. I actually met people from 8 the US Bank -- 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm going to ask you to 10 wrap this up. 11 MS. GAITENS: -- and people from 12 Sukiyakis. I mean, the other businesses, we all 13 go to this bar and have a drink after work. And I 14 wanted to bring my customers there this summer and 15 could not bring them up to their deck. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. 17 MS. GAITENS: Did you want me to wrap 18 that up? 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yep. 20 MR. ARENA: Who do you know is the owner 21 and operator of the establishment? 22 MS. GAITENS: Christina. 23 MR. ARENA: And you've had regular 24 contact with Christina? 25 MS. GAITENS: I've seen Christina. She 191 1 is the one I talk to. I've seen Rodney, of 2 course, but you know what? What I wanted to say 3 about that, is that Rodney, you know, I mean, I 4 have my husband do my collections for my business. 5 You know, I mean, I don't want the confrontation, 6 so I let him do that. My son says he is the owner 7 of my business. He doesn't have any ownership in 8 my business, you know, that type of stuff. 9 MR. ARENA: What type of building -- 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Arena, I'll give a 11 last question here. Because the time has expired. 12 MR. ARENA: Just describe what type of 13 building you have there, and if you have any 14 tenants there. 15 MS. GAITENS: Yeah, I just, I said that. 16 I have three tenants upstairs. My business 17 partner and I both work on the first floor. And 18 our buildings are six feet apart. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by Committee? 20 Ma'am, you've indicated you reside in 21 New Berlin? 22 MS. GAITENS: I do. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And this is a -- 24 MS. GAITENS: Business. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: It's a business, but you 192 1 said you have tenants as well, too? 2 MS. GAITENS: I do have tenants. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Residential tenants? 4 MS. GAITENS: Residential. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So it's a mixed-use 6 property? 7 MS. GAITENS: Yes, it is. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are you located between 9 this and -- you said 40 -- 10 MS. GAITENS: 4028 and 4030 are both in 11 the same building. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are you located -- 13 MS. GAITENS: Directly south. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Is there another bar 15 that's another neighbor of yours to the south? Or 16 is that how many buildings down? 17 MS. GAITENS: Packy's is, there is a 18 house, another -- Jersey's parking lot is next to 19 the house, and then Packy's. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So it's a couple of lots 21 next to you? 22 MS. GAITENS: Yes. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Any other bars in the 24 area? 25 MS. GAITENS: Yeah, Rookies. 193 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And that's what, about 2 the next -- 3 MS. GAITENS: Two blocks down on the 4 other side of the street. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: On the other side of 6 Norwich, the next block north of Norwich? 7 MS. ELLIOT: On Howell. 8 MS. GAITENS: It's on Howell. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Right. It's the next 10 block north of Norwich? 11 MS. GAITENS: Yes, on the corner of 12 Howard. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't know. I've 14 looked up an address of 3915. If one is on the 15 4000 block, one is on the 39, that's usually one 16 block. It could be on the other end of the block. 17 The other end of the block, but unless my 18 addresses work differently in the City of 19 Milwaukee, it's on the next block face, maybe on 20 the other end of the block face. I don't know, do 21 blocks work differently on the south side than 22 they do on the north side of the City? 23 ALDERMAN KOVAC: They are on the east 24 side. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Two blocks on one -- 194 1 yeah, well, you could actually, that would be like 2 3800 and 3900 block south as opposed to -- but 3 that actually, I'm going to guess that Norwich is 4 probably 4000 even, and if this address is 3915, 5 that's it's equivalent of about 4/5ths of the 6 block face down from Norwich. As I said, that's 7 just my hunch based on how the City of Milwaukee 8 works on the north side of the City. I've been to 9 the south side, but not as often. 10 Now, how often are you -- you described 11 not having issues or concerns, and I understand 12 that you may get complaints from your tenants, but 13 how often are you present during the real late 14 night hours of midnight to 1:00 in the morning? 15 MS. GAITENS: My business partner works 16 later than I do. He works typically until about 17 11:00. But the tenants, one of the tenants worked 18 for me most of the year. And she tells me of 19 any -- 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Objection, hearsay. 21 The tenant should be here; she is not. 22 MS. GAITENS: I think they would have 23 called if they had a problem. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: But you have not gotten 25 complaints from that person? 195 1 MS. GAITENS: No, no complaints from my 2 tenants. 3 MR. ARENA: That's not hearsay. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Then -- 5 MS. GAITENS: I do not have complaints 6 from my tenants about Jersey's. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Now, you have indicated 8 you have gone there? 9 MS. GAITENS: Mm mm. Not frequently, 10 but I go, you know. There's other businessowners, 11 and the bank personnel stop by in the evening for 12 a drink every once in a while. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: But I'm going to guess 14 that's not during the latest of late night hours? 15 MS. GAITENS: No, it's not the latest 16 hours. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Early evening hours? 18 MS. GAITENS: Right. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. I just wanted to 20 ascertain your timeframe. Thank you. 21 All right. Any other questions by 22 Committee? No. 23 Alderman Zielinski, any follow-up 24 questions? 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No, no follow-up 196 1 questions. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, ma'am. 3 MS. GAITENS: Thank you. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. That will 5 wrap up testimony. What I'll do is, I'll allow 6 you each closings, if you would like that. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Is the closing 8 included in the allotted time, or is that 9 additional time? 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Zielinski, 11 we'll provide you with a brief closing for both of 12 you here. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I know, I just 14 asked the question. Is our closing included in 15 the allotted amount of time, or not? 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Usually, yes. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay, well, if that 18 is the case, I submit he used his time, and more 19 than his time. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't dispute that 21 because there were 14 seconds over. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: It was more than 23 that, but -- 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I have it on the dial. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So he went over. I 197 1 feel that the rules should be followed. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman, I don't 3 dispute that, but the ordinance also allows the 4 Chair to make a reasonable determination of 5 additional allotment of time. I wrote the 6 ordinance. That's what it says. Let's put it 7 this way: I don't think that given the fact that 8 you have an attorney that may take you to court, 9 you wouldn't want to dispute one minute or two 10 minutes over the fact that a judge is going to 11 provide an injunction, theoretically, over that. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I believe we should 13 just follow -- go ahead. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And the additional time 15 that I provide him, if I gave him two minutes to 16 provide a closing and you had two minutes left 17 yourself, that you would get four minutes, if you 18 want to make a four-minute closing, so that 19 everyone got 32. It's a rough evening out, and 20 that's what it is. That's the way it was actually 21 written under that guise. I'm not joshing you, 22 Alderman Zielinski. That's why I wrote it that 23 way. We built in levels of flexibility, okay. It 24 was to try to prevent having two attorneys play 25 ultra-attorney at a quasi-judicial hearing and 198 1 drag it out with a zillion questions and make a, 2 theoretically, and hour-and-a-half hearing a 3 four-hour hearing. That's what happens too, so 4 okay. 5 MR. ARENA: If we're going to be here 6 for ten minutes, I'd like to use it. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If we're going to be 8 five minutes debating two-minute closings, we're 9 defeating the purpose of that. I mean, it's to 10 limit the time and to have reasonable definitions 11 to these meetings. That's what it's for. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I'll defer to him 13 on closing first. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. I'm going to 15 ask you to -- because I'm allowing you additional 16 time, to make it very brief and reasonable, okay? 17 MR. ARENA: Okay. Just a couple of 18 quick points here, and what I think is an 19 important point for the record. At this point in 20 time, this Committee has not heard from several 21 witnesses that I have. And they have not heard 22 from the licensee herself to contradict some of 23 these wild accusations that are being made against 24 her. I make that statement for the record. I 25 find that to be -- I have an issue with that 199 1 concerning due process. 2 Secondly, if you add this all up and you 3 shake it all down, I brought in all of these 4 police officers, and I submit these CAD reports to 5 show you that this particular location is under a 6 heavy amount of scrutiny. And that is because 7 these neighbors, they are the tail wagging the 8 dog. They have called and complained to the 9 captain. They've called and complained to 10 everybody and anybody that -- they got 11 Neighborhood Services involved. And I'm going to 12 tell you right out what it is, Neighborhood 13 Services is a hack. Ron Roberts is a hack, and he 14 came up with a hack plan. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Please do not make it 16 personal. Do not make it personal. 17 MR. ARENA: All right. I won't make it 18 personal, but I will tell you this: I have 19 advised my client, and she chose not to, that she 20 had the legal action, legal course to file a civil 21 suit against the City for that illegal placard of 22 that deck, which had nothing to do with any BOZA 23 issue. They decided they didn't want to do that. 24 They wanted -- Christina herself, said all she 25 wants to do is move on and run a peaceable 200 1 business. 2 I submitted a CD. Look at it. I'll 3 tell you what's on it. It's Christina being 4 interviewed. She is there. She is the one 5 working. She operates the business. 6 This is all based on impressions, 7 beliefs, that somebody else is running the 8 business. You know, if you have a collusive 9 agreement, do you know what the penalty is? It's 10 a fine. That was brought up earlier. Is that 11 really something that we want to say at this 12 point, "Well, that should lead to nonrenewal of a 13 license"? 14 This woman has a property interest in 15 this license. She supports her family from it. 16 She has seven to ten employees that rely on this 17 business. And is there really enough here in this 18 record to establish that this business is changed 19 in large part from last year? I think that it 20 has. There wasn't volleyball all summer, for good 21 or for bad. The witnesses themselves have said, 22 well, we, you know, they walk their dog by the 23 location. Actually, I think they walk their dog 24 by the location so they can nose around and see 25 what's going on and get on the phone to Captain 201 1 Young or one of the officers to get them over 2 there to issue citations. This is what the 3 evidence has shown. Don't be aghast by the 4 evidence. 5 I would submit that at worst this should 6 be a situation where a warning letter is issued. 7 Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. Thank you. 9 Alderman Zielinski. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you, Mr. 11 Chairman. 12 As you know, we're all busy people. I 13 could think of plenty of other things I could do 14 with my time instead of spending it this 15 afternoon, you know, in this meeting, or spending 16 the last two years ever since this licensee took 17 over this business, dealing with the neighbors, 18 playing cat and mouse games with the owners of the 19 business, and so forth. Believe me, I've got much 20 too much on my plate to look for something like 21 this to invest my time. I've got many other 22 things that I have to put off to the side because 23 of the problems with this bar. 24 And if this bar gets renewed, I'll tell 25 you what, we're going to be back here next year 202 1 all over again. We're going to go through the 2 same thing just like we did last year when they 3 got a 45-day suspension. 4 Now, there are two issues here: One is 5 the collusive agreement. I think that the 6 collusive agreement is very serious. You have 7 somebody who is a felon, who has an extensive 8 criminal record, who obviously hasn't gotten over 9 his ways. Last year, just before the licensing 10 meeting, the licensee had to file charges for 11 domestic abuse against the individual. His 12 probation has been revoked as we speak, or prior 13 to us attending this meeting here. And it's clear 14 that he exerts an enormous amount of control and 15 influence over this particular individual, okay. 16 When I have somebody with that kind of criminal 17 record, with that kind of background, that can't 18 get a license, exerting this type of control, I'm 19 concerned about that establishment. I'm concerned 20 about the neighborhood. I'm concerned about the 21 types of things that are going on and that will go 22 on, you know, at that location. That's why we 23 have guidelines for licensees and requirements as 24 far as character, and so forth. And it's clear 25 that those guidelines, the intent, have been 203 1 circumvented here. 2 As I continue to speak, I'm going to 3 highlight some of the points that show clearly, 4 there is no doubt that he is in control of this 5 establishment, and that the licensee is under his 6 complete and total control. And that's not good 7 news for, you know, the neighborhood. 8 I'll go through the points again: We 9 had neighbors testify that this individual, Rodney 10 Las, came to their house on numerous occasions and 11 told them he was the owner; they never even saw 12 the licensee before the Committee hearing here; 13 before the Board of Zoning Appeals, who shows up, 14 it's Rodney. And, again, mind you, this is after 15 she testified and her attorney testified, and you 16 saw the video that, "Oh, no, he's not going to 17 have anything to do with this place. He's 18 finished. She wants nothing to do with him." And 19 then all along as early as a month-and-a-half ago, 20 she is trying to put him on as a licensee. A 21 month-and-a-half ago. And she told us how many 22 times, "Oh, she wants to have nothing to do with 23 this guy," and she comes in and testifies before 24 the -- or she came in and spoke to the Licensing 25 Division and indicated to them that she wants to 204 1 make things right. Somehow the counsel tried to 2 twist that around. 3 They also made mention of the fact that 4 they are going to -- that what she had indicated 5 to the licensing staff was misconstrued when the 6 lady that testified here, Ms. Ethridge -- 7 MR. ARENA: Is he out of time yet? 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No, no. And don't 9 interrupt, Mr. Arena. I'm giving him additional 10 time because I gave you additional time, and his 11 time hadn't expired. Please don't interrupt. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: When Ms. Ethridge 13 testified, there was nothing during cross 14 examination by counsel to refute what she said 15 about what happened. He didn't go in and ask her 16 any questions: Well, you know, could you have 17 misunderstood her because of this, that and the 18 other. She said flat out, this lady told her she 19 had nothing to do with the bar, flat out. She's 20 surprised she has to come down. Counsel didn't 21 ask her any questions whatsoever if that was 22 misconstrued in any way. 23 MR. ARENA: I actually have to object. 24 That is not an appropriate argument. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No, this isn't -- this 205 1 is an argument -- 2 MR. ARENA: That doesn't mean you get to 3 say whatever you want in the argument. You have 4 to point it to the evidence. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No, no, no. Mr. Arena, 6 I'm going to call you out of order if you keep 7 this up. You know what, you seemed to have 8 implied that one of our DNS supervisors was a 9 hack. So, you know, do you get to say anything 10 you want? Apparently you do. 11 Now, please, let him finish unimpeded. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: And that segues 13 into my next point here about trying to reach me 14 and me not returning the phone call. Believe me, 15 I want to deal with the licensee. I was led to 16 believe at the last meeting when we only issued a 17 45-day suspension that Rodney wasn't going to have 18 anything to do with this. Why would I want to 19 have any communication with him? I was looking to 20 have communication with the licensee. Of all the 21 things that we heard today, that's the most 22 absurd. I did not have one contact with that 23 individual. And I did nothing to lead that 24 individual to believe that I did not want to have 25 contact. No way. I do not want to deal with this 206 1 individual, I want this individual to have nothing 2 to do with this place because there would be 3 nothing but more problems. 4 As to the 45-day suspension here -- 5 excuse me, I'm just looking over my final points. 6 So anyway, and again, here she is talking as I'm 7 speaking, Mr. Chair. It's been taking place all 8 throughout the hearing. 9 So I think it's clear that there is a 10 collusive agreement. If we allow this licensee to 11 move forward and allow this individual who now is 12 behind bars to control this place and have 13 influence over who is going to control it, he is 14 going to have somebody direct it who is going to 15 be following his, along the same path. I think 16 we're setting a very dangerous precedent, because 17 you know what? There is going to be a lot of 18 felons out there, they're going to say, "Hey, I 19 can't open a bar, but you know what? I'll find 20 somebody that I can control and I can manipulate, 21 and I'll get them to put their name in the front, 22 and I'll really operate it." I think this is a 23 slippery slope. And we have to send a message 24 that if you're going to operate a collusive 25 agreement, you're going to pay the price, and that 207 1 is, you're going to have your license revoked. 2 It's clear that, you know, he is controlling and 3 operating. 4 As far as the police officers' 5 testimony. I'll tell you right now, I've got 6 bars, and I'm sure we've all had constituents that 7 say they gave up, you know, calling the cops. I 8 mean, this one officer testified he was there 15 9 times in one year and he heard an excessively loud 10 noise instance himself, and he didn't choose to 11 issue a citation. There is a big difference 12 between going to a bar 15 times during the course 13 of one year and somebody who lives there 24 hours 14 a day, sevens day a week. 15 Another key point that I think is 16 important for the Committee to consider is the 17 fact that not one individual, not one individual 18 that lives in the neighborhood came here to 19 testify in support of this bar here. Not one 20 person living there. This lady who lives in New 21 Berlin, she doesn't have to deal with this noise 22 late at night. So that is who they brought. 23 And they wasted all of this time and 24 with the captain, I don't know what information 25 they got out of the captain here, but, you know, I 208 1 don't want to have to come and deal with this 2 issue next year. And I'll tell you, I think that 3 there are going to be worse things that are going 4 to take place at this bar next year if we allow 5 this to go unimpeded. Thank you. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Were there 7 any additional questions? 8 ALDERMAN KOVAC: I have one very quick 9 question for the applicant. You've already stated 10 that Mr. Las had some, but you're saying it was 11 limited, involvement, it was tasks, it was driving 12 a shuttle, but not management, you've already 13 testified to that. 14 MS. ELLIOT: That is correct, sir. 15 ALDERMAN KOVAC: My question is, what do 16 you anticipate his involvement would be if this 17 license were renewed in the upcoming year? 18 MS. ELLIOT: Zero. He is revoked. He 19 is looking at remaining in prison for at minimum 20 of five to seven; at max, 13 to 20 years right 21 now. His parole officer was here to testify to 22 that effect. There is also, in his rules, a 23 no-contact order. His -- she told me that when an 24 inmate tries to dial out, they have to put in 25 their number, or whatever, and then whatever 209 1 numbers they're allowed to call, only goes 2 through. Both -- any, the bar number, my home 3 number, my cell number, my son's number, my 4 daughter's number, are all blocked numbers. He is 5 legally by his parole agent and the whole staff 6 in, whatever, jail, he is not allowed to have any 7 contact with me whatsoever as of this point. 8 Was there a point in time I tried to 9 make the relationship work off and on throughout 10 the year? Yes, I did. It didn't work out. That 11 is why he is in jail. I'm the reason why he is 12 revoked. 13 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Thank you. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions? All 15 right. Then we're in Committee on this matter. 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Question for Ms. Grill. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, we're out of 18 Committee on this matter. 19 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Well, last year, we did 20 a 45-day suspension on the entire license, is that 21 correct? 22 MS. GRILL: Yes. 23 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Did the motion say 24 anything about the patio, or did we leave that to 25 BOZA and DNS? Because I remember it was almost 210 1 just as confusing last year as this year what a 2 full deck meant. 3 MS. GRILL: The note that I had was that 4 those areas were placarded. 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So we made a motion 6 last year -- 7 MS. GRILL: But DNS had placarded then 8 already. 9 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Because of this 10 Committee's action? 11 MS. GRILL: I'm not sure. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't think so. 13 ALDERMAN KOVAC: The Committee left that 14 just as the 45-day without -- okay. 15 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderwoman Coggs. 17 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I actually read last 18 year's findings. Initially, Alderman Zielinski 19 had moved for a 45-day suspension of the regular 20 license, but an elimination of the extended 21 premise. He withdrew that, and we ultimately 22 passed what was the 45 days. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The greatest difficulty 24 even, you know, you certainly have one issue that 25 I think that when you have a deck and you have an 211 1 extension, it's going to lead to people outside 2 longer during certain times of the year. For good 3 or bad, the prohibition on smoking drives people 4 outside with cigarettes. So maybe, you know, they 5 have their cigarette and go back in the bar to get 6 back. But the fact of the matter is, whether or 7 not you, you know, this is something that's not 8 only we, but every other community that has a 9 license that's near a residential area, is 10 grappling with, is that very issue that, you know, 11 you can restrict that. Ultimately one way or 12 anther, you're still going to have patrons that 13 are outside. 14 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Just to clarify what 15 our options are. If we were to do, to limit the 16 extension of premise from outdoors, people could 17 still play volleyball and smoke outdoors, they 18 just couldn't drink while doing both, correct? 19 MS. GRILL: Mr. Chair. It would depend 20 on if there is an occupancy permit for that area. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Right. Well, they'll 22 need that for sure. But the action that the 23 Committee would take just revolves around the 24 consumption of alcohol. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Correct. 212 1 ALDERMAN KOVAC: We can't actually tell 2 them, that's up to DNS and BOZA, for where people 3 can go. We just control whether they can drink, 4 correct? 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Correct. 6 I still don't know how DNS can restrict 7 an occupancy on the land. I really don't. I 8 don't know how you go in and clean it up, mow it, 9 whatever else too, because the occupancy is a 10 strict prohibition. It just is. It's perplexing, 11 as I said. That aside, I'm still perplexed by 12 that. I'm perplexed over the whole ramp, because 13 if you restrict an occupancy, you can't say people 14 can't sit on it, because if you restrict the 15 occupancy or you limit the occupancy, or you 16 restrict that or you revoke it, you can't 17 literally roll up it. Mr. Stephens is smiling a 18 little bit here. But it's true. I just don't 19 understand that, but it is aside. I honestly 20 don't know over the long haul how you prevent, 21 theoretically, somebody from walking to the side 22 of the building. Certainly, you can't prevent 23 somebody from going out to the front sidewalk and 24 smoking a cigarette and then going back in. That 25 happens, and it's going to happen unfortunately. 213 1 Unless you shut places down because it's so 2 problematic. 3 We're still in committee if there is a 4 motion. 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Kovac. 7 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So there is a couple 8 different issues here, one is the license itself 9 and then the other is the outside drinking. 10 The issue of the license itself. 11 Frankly, most of the police report deals with the 12 outside drinking and the back-and-forth on that. 13 And then this part of the police report 14 that deals with the collusive agreement. There is 15 certainly strong evidence from our own staff that 16 something like a collusive agreement was going on 17 in the past year. Although, frankly, it's 18 clearly, at least it's clearly, it's on the record 19 that there is an abusive personal relationship 20 that was going on. So take that for what it's 21 worth. I mean, to me, I wouldn't necessarily call 22 it completely a cynical collusion; so much as a 23 domestic collusion, that happens. We all have 24 some idea of what that can mean, so. And 25 certainly, were this person not in prison now, I 214 1 would be strongly concerned that even such 2 non-cynical collusion would continue, but, 3 frankly, the fact that he's in prison -- so the 4 past is questionable, what was really going on, 5 that's clear. 6 The future, I think is based on the 7 testimony provided by the applicant, is pretty 8 clear. This collusion physically cannot happen, 9 at least for the next year. 10 On the other hand, the -- so, for me; 11 the issue of suspending the license, I don't see 12 the overall license really being in jeopardy based 13 on the evidence we have, especially based on the 14 evidence of the police officers who run the tavern 15 car saying that it's not out of -- an unusual 16 tavern in the area. 17 On the other hand, the testimony we 18 consistently had two years running from the 19 neighbors who share a backyard with this operation 20 is, I mean, I know that Mrs. Kelly Murphy wanted 21 the -- said inside and outside was generating 22 noise, and certainly the outside noise was worse. 23 Her husband said that it was a good summer until 24 they got back on that deck, so. To me, given that 25 you've got immediate neighbors who share lot 215 1 lines, with what's going on outside tells me that 2 we can't, I can't in good conscience recommend 3 that this license continue to be having beer 4 outside when it's clear that they have very 5 unresolved issues that have been ongoing with or 6 without, no matter who is running the place, with 7 what's going on. And with the smoking ban and 8 with volleyball league, there is going to be 9 activity outside anyway; we can't prevent that. 10 But certainly, by allowing alcohol outside, I 11 just, I can't. I mean, I feel like the neighbors 12 have made their case two years running, severely 13 affected their ability to get a good night's 14 sleep. 15 So my motion would be to amend the plan 16 of operation to not allow outdoor drinking and to 17 renew the license with a warning letter based on 18 the police report and neighborhood and staff 19 testimony. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman, I'm going to 21 ask you to specify. 22 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Specify. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Specify in terms of the 24 police report because -- 25 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I think we should 216 1 leave the one item open that hasn't been 2 determined yet. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Item 5. The other two, 4 one was the dismissal without prejudice, and the 5 other one was the investigation that revealed no 6 violations. 7 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So then I'll base it on 8 neighborhood and staff testimony. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And then leave open Item 10 No. 5. 11 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Yeah. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. The motion by 13 Alderman Kovac is to recommend approval of the 14 renewal of the license with the issuance of a 15 warning letter and to amend the plan of operation 16 to revoke the use of the extension of premise 17 based on -- 18 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Neighborhood -- 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Neighborhood testimony, 20 and also to hold open Item No. 5 on the police 21 report. Did I provide a fair summation of that? 22 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Yes. 23 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: On the motion, 25 Alderwoman Coggs. 217 1 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Last year, I didn't 2 support the 45 days because I thought it was too 3 harsh. I'm going to support this motion. 4 But I feel like I would be remiss if I 5 didn't take this moment to say, I sit on the 6 City's Domestic Violence Commission. And just 7 recently Congresswoman Gwen Moore was actually in 8 the paper talking about how the domestic violence 9 rates in the state of Wisconsin are at an all-time 10 high for the last ten years, the highest in ten 11 years. 12 I remember last year, and, you, Ms. 13 Elliot, sat here tearfully, and as that video 14 depicted that we watched, about your desire to 15 disaffiliate yourself with Mr. Las and about the 16 domestic violence and all that happened. Domestic 17 violence is a serious issue in the state of 18 Wisconsin. And not only you, but many people in 19 general are in situations that they need help out 20 of. There is help out there. I just would hope 21 that people would reach for the help before it 22 results in their ultimate death. Screw the 23 license. Your life is worth more than this 24 license. So any deal you have with him, Mr. Las, 25 or anyone else -- because, yes, he's in jail right 218 1 now, but I would hate that he be replaced with 2 someone just like him. So I would hope that all 3 of this discussion is not lost. That issue for 4 you is not lost. And if you need help, get it. 5 If anybody watching needs help, please reach out 6 and get it. It's a serious issue. And I just 7 think that was kind of glossed over in the 8 conversations today. But there are people dying 9 because they are not addressing this issue. So I 10 just wanted to put that out there. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. It looks as 12 though two votes will carry. 13 I have a little bit of difficulty with 14 the motion in terms of the extension. I'm torn in 15 that respect. I do believe that certainly you can 16 have situations where neighbors will experience 17 doors opening, where an individual may be loud for 18 a few moments, and that may be certainly 19 distracting to neighbors, but that it may not be 20 ongoing. So that if somebody is loud and 21 screaming for 30 seconds, 15, 20 seconds, it's 22 1:00 in the morning, that may be disturbing you, 23 you pick up the phone, call the police even, if 24 they show up two minutes later there, somebody 25 tells the person to be quiet and get back in the 219 1 bar, and it doesn't -- I can't dispute that that 2 doesn't happen at any one place. I think as long 3 as you have a bar and you have people drinking, 4 you're bound to find actions along that line 5 taking place. 6 The difficulty I have here is trying to 7 ascertain whether or not there was a collusive 8 agreement. I'm not certain what the exact 9 situation is. I do believe that Mr. Las had a 10 perhaps more substantial hand in running the 11 day-to-day operations. Now, whether or not that 12 was ownership, frankly, he should have had a 13 manager's license. And I don't know if that was 14 what was at hand that was perhaps a violation of 15 his probation or parole, if he had any more 16 involved active role in a tavern, and that was 17 sort of keeping this at bay. I don't know if -- 18 from what I understand, you have illness, if that 19 at least limits some of your activities with some 20 health concerns in terms of being there during 21 extensive hours as opposed to being a little more 22 hands off. 23 I'm not convinced that this is some bar 24 that solely is in Rodney Las' hands and that it's 25 not, in terms of ownership, I just believe that 220 1 the active part of managing it, at least the 2 aspects of the day-to-day operations, were perhaps 3 under Mr. Las' hand. Now, how that fits in terms 4 of a collusive agreement in terms of the overall 5 ownership, I'm not convinced that he is the owner, 6 that that was done in that type of illegal way. 7 From everything you indicate here, and what's been 8 testified here for two years, he was a fiance'. 9 How do you dissolve that, I don't know, from a 10 personal relationship that you have with him. 11 I think it's a positive perhaps, maybe 12 not to your overall business, but at least from 13 the neighbors' perspective. I'm certain that if 14 perhaps the volleyball had been in place, we would 15 have had much more testimony and more problems, 16 more things for the neighbors to testify to, 17 because that had been a complaint of theirs in the 18 past. 19 It does say a lot to me that we had an 20 inordinate, what seems to be an inordinate number 21 of tavern checks. Particularly, when I looked at, 22 you know, a week's time, and there were five 23 visits in about a week's time. When these 24 officers admitted to me here that normally they're 25 visiting places once every three weeks to a month, 221 1 I believe it was four days consecutively and maybe 2 five out of six. And during that time, nothing 3 was cited. That's not to say that, again, you 4 don't have an individual isolated that comes out 5 that's loud and obnoxious when they go to their 6 car. That's just to say as part as when they 7 drive up, the music playing in the bar is not 8 inordinate, there's not individuals that they're 9 seeing that are out on the deck if they're there 10 that are obnoxious. I'm not convinced that the 11 deck itself has reached a level that it needs to 12 be revoked. 13 Honestly, again, with the issue of the 14 collusive agreement, I'm a little troubled at 15 least that I believe, I think it was a little more 16 active than what I think that you are admitting 17 here. I truly believe the ownership interest is 18 yours. I don't believe that you are absolved from 19 this. I do believe that you have certainly a hand 20 in some capacity of ownership, but I don't know 21 that everything is forthright, and that provides 22 me with a little trouble. But I don't know how 23 that translates, whether that, for me, that 24 translates as a warning letter. I certainly 25 believe from, as Alderman Kovac has indicated now, 222 1 that from now forward, that with Mr. Las out of 2 the picture, that that won't be an issue. I don't 3 know how that will be replaced in terms of the 4 day-to-day operations. I would suggest to you 5 that if you have someone else that is going to 6 take a more active role, that that individual get 7 a manager's license here with the City. So that 8 if you do continue to operate, there is somebody 9 who is a bona fide manager on hand. 10 Given the police report, certainly, that 11 to me is -- there is nothing, with Item 5 left 12 open, to substantiate anything toward the business 13 to provide for anything in terms of a sanction 14 there. 15 With the neighborhood testimony, that's 16 really borderline. That's really borderline, and 17 perhaps indicative of a need for a warning letter. 18 That's been stipulated here. 19 If I were to factor in any other measure 20 in terms of the overall issue of a collusive 21 agreement, perhaps I would side on ten days, but 22 it would sort of not be with the restriction on 23 the deck, so I won't support the motion for that 24 reason. 25 But the motion then before us by 223 1 Alderman Kovac is to recommend the approval of the 2 renewal of the license with the issuance of a 3 warning letter, and, again, that Item No. 5 be 4 kept open on the police report, and that the plan 5 of operation be modified such that the extension 6 of premise be stricken from the license, and that 7 that be based on neighborhood testimony. With 8 that motion before us, are there any objections to 9 that motion other than my own? Hearing none, so 10 ordered. 11 And even though there is not a sanction 12 on in terms of date, because there is a portion of 13 the license that is now being restricted, we will 14 hear from Mr. Stephens because that will provide 15 the due process. Mr. Stephens. 16 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Thank you, Mr. 17 Chair. The Committee will be doing a report of 18 its findings of facts and conclusions of law 19 recommending to the Common Council, Milwaukee 20 Common Council, that the license be renewed with a 21 warning letter, though your plan of operation or 22 extension of premise will be non-renewed. You'll 23 receive a copy of that report. 24 You'll have an opportunity to file 25 written exceptions to that report. If you do, it 224 1 must be received by the City Clerk by 4:45 p.m. on 2 December 16, 2010. If you submit written 3 objections, you will also have the opportunity to 4 appear before the Common Council when they 5 consider this matter on December 21, 2010, in the 6 Common Council Chambers of this building located 7 on the same floor you are now but at the other end 8 of the building. 9 Please be advised that this report is a 10 recommendation to the full Common Council. The 11 Common Council makes the final decision whether 12 your license or licenses will be renewed, renewed 13 with a suspension between 10 and 90 days, or 14 non-renewed. Do you understand that? 15 MS. ELLIOT: Yes, I do, sir. 16 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Arena, will you 17 accept service on behalf of your client? 18 MR. ARENA: Yes. I have one point. I 19 believe that this license concludes on the 17th of 20 December. 21 MS. ELLIOT: 15th 22 MR. ARENA: 15th of December. So she 23 would have to close until the Council? 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Correct. 25 MS. ELLIOT: What? 225 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Until the 21st. 2 MR. ARENA: You have to close until the 3 21st. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Was there not a timely 5 filing? 6 MS. GRILL: That's correct. And we sent 7 a letter advising her of that fact. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Yep, so that 9 would be a voluntary closing. All right. Thank 10 you. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 226 1 STATE OF WISCONSIN ) ) SS: 2 COUNTY OF WALWORTH ) 3 4 5 I, KAREN RENEE, Court Reporter and 6 Notary Public in and for the State of Wisconsin, do 7 hereby certify that the above was recorded by me on 8 December 7, 2010, and reduced to writing under my 9 personal direction. 10 I further certify that I am not a 11 relative or employee or attorney or counsel of any of 12 the parties, or a relative or employee of such attorney 13 or counsel, or financially interested directly or 14 indirectly in this action. 15 In witness whereof I have hereunder set 16 my hand and affixed my seal of office at Burlington, 17 Wisconsin, this 13th day of December, 2010. 18 19 ___________________________ 20 Karen Renee Court Reporter and Notary Public 21 In and for the State of Wisconsin 22 23 My Commission Expires: March 11, 2012. 24 25