00001 1 CITY OF MILWAUKEE 2 LICENSES COMMITTEE HEARING 3 4 In the Matter of: 5 730 North Old World Third Street 4th Aldermanic District 6 7 8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS 9 ALD. JAMES BOHL, JR. - Chairman ALD. MILELE A. COGGS - Vice Chairman 10 ALD. ASHANTI HAMILTON ALD. T. ANTHONY ZIELINSKI 11 ALD. NIK KOVAC 12 POLICE DEPARTMENT by SERGEANT PAUL MacGILLIS 13 CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE by ADAM STEPHENS ALD. ROBERT BAUMAN - 4th District 14 MICHAEL WHITCOMB, Attorney at Law 15 JEFF SCOTT OLSON, Attorney at Law 16 17 Proceedings had and testimony given in the 18 above-entitled matter before the LICENSES COMMITTEE 19 OF THE CITY OF MILWAUKEE on September 20th, 2010. 00002 1 PROCEEDINGS 2 (All City Personnel previously affirmed.) 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: On our agenda right now, 4 we have the matter of Scott Krahn for Silk East, at 5 730 North Old World Third Street. I know that there 6 are a number of matters before us this morning, 7 including another cabaret license for an 8 establishment Satin, at 117 West Pittsburgh Avenue. 9 That item is taken two from the first one that we're 10 considering now. We're considering one at Old World 11 Third Street. 12 I'm going to guess that there are a fair 13 number of individuals here that are here to testify 14 on both matters. What I would ask at this point is 15 if you are here for the first matter that you remain 16 in the room. If you are here for the matter in the 17 Fifth Ward at 117 West Pittsburgh, if you could 18 please relinquish the seat and exit the room, at 19 least until we know that we have individuals here to 20 testify on the first one. 21 The other issue is somebody may have 22 arrived late for the item that's going to be heard 23 now. You are two items from now. That may be taken 24 up a little bit down the line. That person is now 25 not going to be able to enter the room and provide 00003 1 testimony because you're waiting for the item two 2 from now. Once those people have provided their 3 testimony, they will leave, and we'll be able to 4 filter you in and get a spot in for when your item is 5 taken up. So I'm going to ask here that individuals 6 who are here for the matter of Silk East, at 730 7 North Old World Third Street, that those individuals 8 remain. Otherwise, I would ask that individuals who 9 are here for a later item please relinquish a seat. 10 I promise you we will not hear those matters and run 11 through them and catch you off guard. Thank you. 12 (Break.) 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: This is a resumption of 14 the hearing of the Common Council's Licenses 15 Committee. I'm going to call forward the first 16 matter on our agenda of regular licenses scheduled 17 for today. Scott A. Krahn, Agent for Six Star 18 Holdings, LLC, a Class B Tavern and Tavern Amusement 19 Cabaret/Nite Club application for Silk East, at 730 20 North Old World Third Street. 21 MR. WHITCOMB: Good morning, Mr. Chairman. 22 My name is Michael Whitcomb, I'm an attorney, and 23 sitting to my immediate left is Attorney Jeff Scott 24 Olson, appearing on behalf of the license applicant. 25 To Mr. Olson's left is his administrative and legal 00004 1 assistant Sarah Crandall, and to her left is Mr. Jon 2 Ferraro, one of the owners of the corporation and the 3 operator of the facility should a license be granted 4 that's available to answer questions concerning its 5 operation. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other than legal 7 representation here, we would ask that individuals 8 who are -- Alderman Bauman and for anyone who's not 9 legal representation for the interest of the LLC to 10 raise your right hand, we'll swear you in at this 11 time. 12 (Speakers duly affirmed.) 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And Mr. Whitcomb, because 14 we don't have Mr. Krahn, I believe, before us here at 15 least at the table, correct? 16 MR. WHITCOMB: He is here, but he's not at 17 the table for space reasons. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You will provide 19 representation for notice I'm going to guess when I 20 state this? 21 MR. WHITCOMB: That is correct. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: At this point here, on 23 behalf of Six Star Holdings, LLC, do you acknowledge 24 receiving notice of today's meeting with the 25 possibility that the application may be denied? 00005 1 There was an attached police report as well as a 2 previous premise report, CAD reports, and findings of 3 fact related to the previous operation of the 4 premise? 5 MR. WHITCOMB: So acknowledged. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: That there is additional 7 correspondence received by the License Division for 8 the previous operation of the premise as well as a 9 potential outline of neighborhood objections, which 10 could be served as use for denial in the application 11 to include -- and I want individuals who are here 12 listening who may object to the license, listen to 13 this, please -- neighborhood objections to loitering, 14 littering, objection to the appropriateness of the 15 location of premise to be licensed, and whether the 16 location will create undesirable neighborhood 17 problems, including -- redundancy here -- littering, 18 loitering, loud music, and noise, parking and traffic 19 problems, music and noise, drug and criminal 20 activity, prostitution, trespassing, public 21 urination, criminal activity -- boy, we covered a lot 22 this -- prostitution, trespassing, public urination 23 -- boy, they're counting on a lot of public urination 24 here the way this is written -- fights, shooting, 25 vandalism, theft, shootings again, vandalism, thefts 00006 1 again, fitness of location based on the concentration 2 of alcohol beverage outlets in the area and other 3 factors, which are detrimental to the health, safety, 4 and welfare of the neighborhood. 5 MR. WHITCOMB: Mr. Chairman, so 6 acknowledged, with the exception of the parenthetical 7 in the neighborhood objection portion. The notice 8 that was received by the Applicant did not include 9 the enclosed map. I just want to make that note for 10 the record. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So in terms of the 12 concentration of alcohol beverage outlets in the 13 area, where it says see enclosed map, you're 14 indicating that was not sent to you as part of the 15 notice? 16 MR. WHITCOMB: Yes. But we did receive a 17 listing of all of the licensed establishments within 18 one mile of the proposed location, but the map is not 19 enclosed. I don't think that that's determinative in 20 any manner, but I just wanted to make note of that. 21 It was enclosed in the next matter. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Ms. Grill, are 23 there any holds on this application? 24 MS. GRILL: The Health Department has a 25 hold for inspection and plans, and Neighborhood 00007 1 Services has a hold for occupancy. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Sergeant, 3 police report, please. 4 SGT. MacGILLIS: There was nothing in the 5 last five years. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: At this point, what I'm 7 going to do is I'm going to ask to hear from -- see a 8 show of hands of individuals who are present to 9 testify in this matter, if I could see a show of 10 hands. Raise your hands if you're here to testify in 11 this matter. Of those individuals, may I ask how 12 many are here in objection to the license? Almost 13 everyone. What I'm go going to do is we'll ask 14 either individuals who are in favor or opposed to 15 please keep your right hand raised, we will swear you 16 all in en mass. 17 I'll say this again. We're swearing you 18 in. Please keep your right hand raised. If you 19 aren't sworn in here and aren't in the room, I don't 20 want individuals to come up later and say I don't 21 know if I wanted to. I've been through this type of 22 hearing for 10-and-a-half years. Sometimes I get 23 people that start raising their hand, then they put 24 it down, they go up and down, up and down, not sure, 25 and then later after they decide they didn't want to 00008 1 do this, I get a hand wave from the back row later 2 can I still testify, can I still testify. If you 3 think that even remotely you may want to testify, 4 please keep your right hand raised at this point so 5 that we can swear you in. Please, swear them in. 6 (Speakers duly affirmed.) 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The way that we are going 8 to work this is as a called contested hearing, I'm 9 going to allow 30 minutes per side that will not 10 include, unless we get to the point where there is an 11 absolute inordinate amount of questions. I would ask 12 a couple of things. We have a standing microphone 13 here to my right and your left. We will utilize the 14 standing microphone for purposes of providing 15 testimony. If, however, you have an issue where you 16 need to be seated because it is too difficult for you 17 to stand for your testimony, we will actually ask at 18 that point that one of the individuals in the front 19 row here relinquish a seat, and we will allow you to 20 sit. Please indicate that to me when you come 21 forward if that is indeed the case. What I will say, 22 again, is we will attempt to try to limit the 23 testimony to two minutes per person within that 24 30-minute time frame. If we get to the point where 25 you are the 12th person and you come forward and you 00009 1 agree substantially with what 11 other persons have 2 already come to testify to and you're just the 12th 3 person that wants to say the same thing, it would be 4 very helpful to the committee if you have nothing new 5 to add to say my name is Shirley Jones, this is my 6 address, I object to the license, and I agree 7 substantially with what has already been stated. At 8 some point we get to the point with redundancy where 9 you don't want to add anything new, if there's 10 something that's substantial and new, after a number 11 of persons have said something, that's fine if you 12 want to speak to that. But literally getting to the 13 point of having 35, 40 persons come in, by the time 14 you get to the 34th, 35th time, you're saying the 15 same thing for the 34th and 35th time, we understand 16 and we get it. 17 The unfortunately reality is if we get to 18 the point where everyone wants to say the same thing 19 over again, then we may have 15 people say that, and 20 there may be five or seven people who don't get to 21 testify at all. So what I would ask, as well, is we 22 have a number of seats that are here in the front 23 row, that individuals who are here to speak start to 24 filter in and take seats in the front row. It would 25 be very helpful once you have spoken -- remember I 00010 1 said your name address for the record and then we 2 will take your testimony. I will ask for you then to 3 hold while I will ask for questions by committee and 4 the ability for the attorney to cross-examine you. 5 When you are completed in terms of your testimony, I 6 will say thank you, you are dismissed, next witness. 7 Otherwise, what happens is oftentimes the 8 person provides testimony, start walking out the 9 room, I got to call you back, and then wej go 10 through this hullabalu of trying to call you back and 11 get you for questions. If we are able to fill the 12 seats in the front row when a person goes up and 13 speaks and they're finished and they're dismissed, 14 they move, someone else could come forward. 15 Otherwise in the past what happens is we get a bunch 16 of people that look back and forth, we get somebody 17 from the back row that stands up, and it takes a lot 18 of time for them to walk and filter back and forth. 19 So if we could do this in an orderly fashion, it will 20 help and assist all of you who were waiting, 21 including those who are here for the next hearings. 22 With that understood, I would ask that 23 individuals who are here in objection to begin start 24 filling the seats in the front row. It will be on a 25 first-come first-serve orderly basis. I don't know 00011 1 who's going to fire with the big canons first. And 2 again, if you have the inability to provide testimony 3 from standing microphone, please acknowledge that to 4 me, and we will ask that a seat be relinquished at 5 the table, you will be able to take a seat to provide 6 your testimony. First witness, please. 7 THE WITNESS: My name is Francisco 8 Camacho. I'm a long-time resident with the city 9 south side. I currently reside 626-B South 5th 10 Street. I have been a resident of this before -- 11 probably before most of you were born, 1972, in fact. 12 And we are having a lot of problems with these people 13 who think they can just come into our community and 14 pervert our city. 15 And what I mean by that, there are ways to 16 do this business but not in my community, not where 17 we have children. We have already a big problem with 18 Envy. We tried to close them. You closed them, not 19 me. The City of Milwaukee closed them up. We're 20 having a lot of problems with Texture. You closed 21 them up for the same reasons, crime, prostitution, 22 drugs. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm sorry, I apologize. 24 Are you here for the matter at 117 West Pittsburgh? 25 THE WITNESS: I think it's 730 North 3rd 00012 1 Street, isn't it? 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You indicated you're a 3 south side resident? 4 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: There is one application 6 downtown, there is another application on the south 7 side. 8 THE WITNESS: That's right. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sir, I'm sorry. I need to 10 know are you here in objection to both? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm just going to say 13 this. It adds more credence -- We can take 14 individuals from anywhere in the city, you can live 15 on the south side and object to a license on the far 16 north side, but it would be preferable to the 17 committee if there is an individual who is here from 18 downtown who is an immediate neighbor be provided an 19 opportunity to speak to that as opposed to an 20 individual who was coming from the other side of town 21 and does not have necessarily the same neighborhood 22 interest in that particular location. 23 THE WITNESS: I'll get to that, Mr. 24 Chairman. 25 MR. WHITCOMB: Mr. Chairman, if I may. 00013 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: This is not time for -- 2 If you want to direct something to the Chair, you may 3 do so. He's not finished with his testimony. 4 MR. WHITCOMB: No, no. It's to you. The 5 Applicant on both establishments would have no 6 objection to considering the testimony of people at 7 this hearing as well as testimony at the other 8 hearing if they object to both, in order to save the 9 duplication of testimony at both hearings. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. I appreciate 11 that. We're going to hear the testimony separately. 12 because there's a vested interest of different 13 people, interest groups, businesses from different 14 locations, and I don't want to hear this here and say 15 that it's all one and the same. 16 MR. WHITCOMB: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 17 THE WITNESS: Now, these same people have 18 an application, also, in my immediate community on 19 1st, I think they call it Satin or something like 20 that, not Silk. And what I want to tell you is 21 something that my stepson once removed -- we're no 22 longer related -- he was going to buy that hotel 23 right from Wisconsin Avenue. They put in something 24 like $36 million to refurbish it, and they were going 25 to give it to him for $7 million, a bargain. He said 00014 1 since Silk is moving in, I want nothing to do with 2 that. The City of Milwaukee lost a very good buyer. 3 They're good contributions. These people are ruining 4 our community. Let's start right here and deny them 5 the right to do so. They bring crime, violence. 6 Look at Texture, look at the file on 7 Texture, look at the file on Envy, look at the file 8 on Sugar, look at the file on Clybourn. You closed 9 them because of what I'm telling you. We have to get 10 rid of these people, and I'm saying perverted people. 11 Please. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sir, again, folks, I'm 13 going to provide you a reminder. When you complete 14 your testimony, please remain until I say you are 15 dismissed. Questions first by Committee, please? 16 Mr. Whitcomb? 17 MR. WHITCOMB: No. 18 MR. OLSON: Mr. Camacho -- 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Please use the microphone. 20 I would ask the attorneys who represent the LLC, you 21 must direct your questions to the Chair. He will 22 answer, but your questions must be directed to the 23 Chair. Thank you. 24 MR. OLSON: Mr. Chairman, do I understand 25 correctly that Envy and Texture were not adult 00015 1 entertainment clubs? 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Camacho? 3 THE WITNESS: They fall in the same 4 category. They use women against the teachings of 5 Islam. I think some of these persons applicants are 6 Islamic, and they come to pervert our women. They 7 all deal with naked woman almost naked women, a 8 little G- string there. 9 MR. OLSON: Do I understand correctly that 10 Mr. Camancho's objection is to the entertainment 11 program that's proposed for Silk and not to the 12 presence of a tavern business at that location such 13 as Martini Mike's? 14 THE WITNESS: Well, now, that's a horse of 15 a different color, my friend. 16 MR. OLSON: Do I understand correctly that 17 you would prefer Martini Mike's to this proposed 18 operation of Silk? 19 THE WITNESS: If they stay within the 20 bounds of the city, yes. You know that the problem 21 of entertainment is that it brings whores, it brings 22 sins, it brings immorality, it perverts our 23 community, my friend. We don't want that. I wonder 24 if the teachings of Islam would allow that, I wonder 25 if the Profit Mohammed -- all blessings be up on him 00016 1 -- would agree with this application. 2 MR. OLSON: That's all. Thank you. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Next witness. 5 THE WITNESS: Kyle Cherek. I'm a resident 6 at 900 South 5th Street in Walker's Point, but today 7 I'm returning Turner Hall, I'm on the board of both 8 Turner Hall and the Turner Hall Preservation Trust at 9 1034 North 4th Street, a closer proximity to the 10 property that is up for discussion. 11 We, essentially, object to a strip club in 12 that location. We feel that it would hinder the 13 movement that is what we would consider a positive 14 movement in downtown and would bring the general 15 district that we share backwards some steps. That's 16 all I've got, Chairman. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Are there any 18 questions by Committee? Questions? 19 MR. OLSON: If I understand correctly, you 20 would prefer this to operate as Martini Mike's, which 21 has now served a suspension of its liquor license and 22 it's eligible to reopen, as opposed to the Silk 23 operation because of the entertainment program 24 planned for Silk? 25 THE WITNESS: Counsel, we have no issue 00017 1 being a standard grade tavern rating that it is or 2 whatever name or derivation that exists, but we do 3 not believe that a cabaret license, a strip club in 4 any name, through any ownership would be a positive, 5 but if it remained a tavern, a bar, a club, or 6 whatever the City calls it, we have no objection to 7 that whatsoever. 8 MR. OLSON: That's all. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Next witness, please. 10 THE WITNESS: My name is Steven McEvoy, 11 and I am the campus director for Bryant-Stratton 12 College at 310 West Wisconsin Avenue. I'm here to 13 state opposition to the proposal for the adult 14 entertainment business on Old World Third. We feel 15 it's inconsistent with the character and nature of 16 the neighborhood. We believe that it's inconsistent 17 with the use of -- the pre-existing use of the tavern 18 that was there, and we object to it on those bases. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Are there 20 questions by Committee? Any questions, attorneys? 21 MR. WHITCOMB: you're representing Briggs 22 and Stratton? 23 THE WITNESS: Bryant & Stratton, 24 B-R-Y-A-N-T. 25 MR. WHITCOMB: What is that for the 00018 1 record, sir? 2 THE WITNESS: That is a college. 3 MR. WHITCOMB: Where are you located in 4 Milwaukee? 5 THE WITNESS: 310 West Wisconsin, at the 6 corner of Old World Third and Wisconsin. 7 MR. WHITCOMB: In the Grand Avenue 8 building? 9 THE WITNESS: In the Federal Building. 10 MR. WHITCOMB: Thank you. 11 MR. OLSON: Located as you are, have you 12 been familiar with the troubled history of Martini 13 Mike's culminating in the recent suspension of its 14 liquor license? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 16 MR. OLSON: Do I understand correctly you 17 would prefer the return of the Martini Mike's 18 operation to the Silk operation that's planned? 19 THE WITNESS: That's rather than a 20 Hobson's choice. We would prefer neither. 21 MR. OLSON: That's all. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Next witness, 23 please. 24 THE WITNESS: My name is Stacie Callies, 25 and I live at 2565 North Cramer Street, Milwaukee, 00019 1 Wisconsin. I am the executive director of the 2 Westown Association representing the western portion 3 of downtown Milwaukee, the neighborhood west of the 4 river. I'm here on behalf of the Westown Association 5 Board of Directors. 6 On September 2nd, our board held a special 7 board meeting to discuss the merits of the Silk plan. 8 We invited representatives from Silk as well as our 9 stakeholders from the downtown neighborhood. At that 10 meeting, after a very intense discussion on all the 11 merits that Silk presented, our board voted -- a 12 majority of the board voted on the following 13 resolution: To publicly oppose the application of 14 Silk East for a liquor license and gentlemen's club 15 at 730 North Old World Third Street. 16 The stakeholders gathered at this meeting 17 voiced concerns about the potential negative impacts 18 the gentlemen's club would have on the surrounding 19 business and property values within the neighborhood. 20 Our association bases the opposition on the following 21 express concerns: This location, 730 North Old World 22 Third Street, falls within an area that continue to 23 be a part of the traditional retail spine in downtown 24 Milwaukee. In fact, the retail plan that was 25 produced by Bid 21 in 2009 lists this property 00020 1 specifically as one of the catalytic downtown retail 2 districts, and in those downtown catalytic retail 3 districts, they call out a merchandise mix plan, and 4 a gentlemen's club clearly does not fall within that 5 merchandise mix plan. 6 We also feel that we do have some strong 7 retail anchors on Wisconsin Avenue adjacent to this 8 property, Boston Store, Office Depot, Borders, that 9 we really need to support with a strong retail 10 environment surrounding it, and once again, a 11 gentlemen's club does not support this environment, 12 and we feel this is not the best and highest use for 13 this property. 14 But secondly, we had some major real 15 estate developers at this meeting, many of which have 16 invested millions of dollars in their properties on 17 Wisconsin Avenue, and they feel that a gentlemen's 18 club, because of the negative impact -- 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Ms. Callies, you can 20 represent and provide representation for the 21 organization that you represent indicating as a board 22 you voted X, Y, and Z. It is hearsay testimony for 23 you to go above and beyond the board that you 24 represent to start saying that I talked to my 25 neighbor yesterday. Unless that neighbor is here to 00021 1 provide direct testimony themselves, I'm not going to 2 allow that hearsay to come forward here. Those 3 individual interests have every right to come forward 4 in these hearings and to provide their own testimony 5 in that regard. 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. And I think they 7 will. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And we'll let them speak 9 for themselves in that regard. 10 THE WITNESS: Sure. Just in conclusion, 11 we urge you to deny this license, based on my 12 testimony here today and the fact that our board 13 conducted an open meeting, a discussion of the 14 merits, openly invited Silk to the meeting, and feel 15 that this is a negative impact on the Westown 16 neighborhood. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Other 18 questions by Committee? I have a follow-up question 19 for you. In terms of the merchandise mix plan that 20 you discussed, where does an establishment of the 21 sort of either Martini Mike's or its predecessor, The 22 Velvet Room, fall into that merchandise mix plan? 23 THE WITNESS: It does not fall within that 24 merchandise mix plan. And I list specifically in the 25 letter that the retail plan, they just give you some 00022 1 specific recommendations for that specific catalytic 2 zone, and for this one, it says that they suggest 3 sporting goods and equipment and casual apparel, so 4 they're just giving us recommendations. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Where does -- On 6 Wisconsin Avenue, for example, in the Hilton, there's 7 a Miller Time Pub. Where does that fall into the 8 plan? 9 THE WITNESS: That is not in the catalytic 10 zone. It does end at 4th Street by Boston Store is 11 the end of that retail neighborhood, so the Hilton 12 would fall outside of that zone specifically. So 13 we're talking Plankinton to 4th in the general 14 vicinity of Grand Avenue and then within a couple 15 blocks to the north, as well. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Just out of clarify then, 17 where does Mo's fall into that, Mo's Irish Pub? 18 THE WITNESS: They do not, but they are 19 existing, they are existing. So we're not here to 20 push out existing businesses that are already there. 21 We're here -- When we have an opportunity to fulfill 22 this retail merchandise mix plan to move forward, our 23 board is not willing to settle for something like a 24 gentlemen's club. That is so far within the realm of 25 acceptable. 00023 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And I understand that, 2 however, I just will say, unfortunately, I think it's 3 a bit inconsistent on a couple of fronts; first and 4 foremost, that if you are to hear, and what I've 5 heard was that a watering hole, a so-called 6 establishment alcohol-related is inconsistent. 7 Because I asked you about Martini Mike's and The 8 Velvet Room, you said inconsistent. 9 THE WITNESS: Once again, if it's an 10 existing business, we're not here to put business 11 owners out of business. We're here when we have an 12 opportunity to turn -- When a business goes out of 13 business and when something that could really 14 negatively, you know, impact the perception of the 15 neighborhood, we're here to come and say this does 16 not fall within the realm of acceptability, this 17 plan. So that's what we're here to do today. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So the effort is really to 19 focus on adding additional retail specifically? 20 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The issue of retail, if 22 Mo's were to sell out and a new application had to 23 come in, you believe that your board would be here in 24 opposition to say this is not an existing license? 25 THE WITNESS: I cannot -- There's too 00024 1 many factors that could go into that operation. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I guess what I wanted to 3 get at is whether or not you are here in opposition 4 to a strip club period as opposed to because it's a 5 location that is a previous licensed premise. 6 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. We take each of 7 those on a case-by-case basis. We're saying that the 8 use, a gentlemen's club, is not one that we would 9 support, it is not the best and highest use, but 10 we're also saying that it doesn't fall within our 11 realm of acceptability within this retail plan that 12 we've all put a lot of resources in in moving 13 forward, that we would like to see something that 14 fits within the guidelines set forth in this plan. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. 16 MR. OLSON: When your organization met, 17 was it aware that Martini Mike's was not out of 18 business but simply had its liquor license suspended 19 for a period of time due to various misconduct, 20 including violence, littering, and excessive noise? 21 THE WITNESS: We do not look at this issue 22 in conjunction with Martini Mike's, we look at each 23 license as a separate issue. So Martini Mike's to 24 our board is a completely separate issue, and that 25 would not determine whether or not we support a 00025 1 gentlemen's club at this location. 2 MR. OLSON: Were you aware that the effect 3 of denying this application will be most likely that 4 Martini Mike's will reopen, since it's already served 5 its suspension and has a liquor license, at that 6 location? 7 THE WITNESS: Once again, we do not look 8 at these issues in conjunction with each other, they 9 are two separate issues. So whether or not Martini 10 Mike's will be back in business is not something that 11 we're willing to take into effect when we're making a 12 decision on this gentlemen's club at this location. 13 MR. OLSON: Even though it's possible that 14 an operation like Martini Mike's could be a lot worse 15 for the retail environment you're trying to foster 16 than a well-run gentlemen's club would? 17 THE WITNESS: We would not be willing to 18 settle for a nite club that was causing problems or a 19 gentlemen's club. We're not at this point, as I 20 stated, we're not willing to settle. We think our 21 neighborhood has bigger and better things in store 22 for it. We don't think that a gentlemen club is a 23 highest and best use, nor do we feel that a nite club 24 that has caused criminal activity in the neighborhood 25 is a good use, but once again, very separate issues. 00026 1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Was your organization here 2 at the last renewal hearing for Martini Mike's at 3 that location? 4 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So even though there was 6 allegations of shootings, other violent activity, 7 other things which frankly would undermine residents' 8 desire to come into and even consider a retail fabric 9 of downtown Milwaukee, the very area that you 10 represent -- I'll tell you, there's nothing that 11 throws questions into suburban residents about coming 12 down to retail downtown than to hear that there were 13 gunshots and all sorts of violence at a club 14 downtown, whether it's occurring during the day or 15 evening, whatnot. 16 THE WITNESS: What's your question? 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: My question for you is why 18 is it that, if your concern is the overall image, 19 that your organization did not take a stand to 20 actually come forward when there were severe problems 21 with the existing use at that location? 22 THE WITNESS: We have been here in many 23 cases to take stands against licensees that have 24 brought in criminal behavior to the neighborhood. We 25 were not here at that specific one. I can't tell you 00027 1 why. But once again, Alderman Bohl, these are two 2 separate issues. We're here to talk about Silk, the 3 merits of Silk, not Martini Mike's. I don't see Mike 4 Kozak here sitting in front of me, so I guess I would 5 like to stick to the issue at hand, which is talking 6 about the merits of the gentlemen's club. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I have the legitimate 8 right as a member of this committee to ask you a 9 question based on a location where you've indicated 10 in your testimony your concern is the problem about 11 image and other things from an establishment, knowing 12 you have a current establishment at this very 13 location in the very area that you represent retail 14 in which you state -- I'll give you the record 15 momentarily, Alderwoman Coggs -- in which you state 16 that your opposition here is because of image and 17 other concerns and the desire to have retail. The 18 only thing that I'm suggesting is there's a pressure 19 hypocrisy here, that's all, that's all. 20 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderwoman Coggs. 22 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I have a question for 23 the city attorney. It appears as we hear for all 24 these people, half the conversation ends up being 25 about Martini Mike's. Correct me if I'm wrong. In 00028 1 our conversation today as we decide on this 2 particular license, the fact that if this license is 3 denied, that Martini Mike's is still in existence 4 cannot be a part of our decision making today; is 5 that correct? 6 MR. STEPHENS: Its relevance is up to your 7 sound discretion. 8 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: If we didn't want 9 Martini Mike's there, we just say okay, let's put the 10 strip club there, that's why we're supporting it, we 11 could legally do that, or are we supposed to be 12 voting on this license on its own merits separately? 13 MR. STEPHENS: This application is what is 14 at issue. Your consideration of this application, if 15 you would like to consider other -- the other past 16 use, obviously, that's also within your discretion, 17 but you as a committee, as a body decide what you 18 would like to consider. 19 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I guess I'm saying that 20 to say you can sit here and question people about 21 Martini Mike's all day, but we, the decision makers, 22 I'm not considering whether or not what's worse or 23 what's better in my decision making, I'm looking at 24 this case on its own. We can sit here for extra 25 minutes on every single witness and ask them if they 00029 1 think it's better if Martini Mike's was here or if 2 this goes in, but I'm looking at this on the merits 3 of itself. We can waste a lot of time doing that, 4 but I'm just saying that's where I'm coming from, to 5 clarify the law with the city attorney. Thank you. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions by 7 Committee? 8 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Mr. Chair. I have a 9 question of Ms. Grill, perhaps. For an applicant to 10 be before us, they have to have an interest in the 11 property; is that correct? 12 MS. GRILL: An interest in the property or 13 they have to have a lease. 14 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Correct. Or a lease 15 that's contingent on getting a license, I would 16 assume. 17 MS. GRILL: Yes. 18 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Presumably there's not 19 two leases for the same property. I'm curious. 20 Maybe the Applicant can say. Has Martini Mike's 21 lease been terminated, is it expired, is the rent 22 current? Is there any possibility of Martini Mike's 23 actually going back into operation? And of course if 24 they did, this body always has the ability to proceed 25 with a revocation action, which might absolutely 00030 1 result in Martini Mike's never reopening anyway. So 2 I just want to put in context for those watching 3 outside in the peanut gallery in the hallway -- no 4 offense, that's actually, a positive comment -- that 5 this is not -- I see where this is all going. The 6 entire argument in favor of this license is going to 7 be, well, it's better than the alternative. 8 The alternative could be a clothing store, 9 because this body has the ability to revoke Martini 10 Mike's on the complaint of any citizen in this room, 11 including the Westown Association based on -- and I 12 might remind everyone that the homicide which 13 occurred in connection with Martini Mike's occurred 14 after they received a 90-day suspension, so that 15 homicide incident is still sitting out there as a 16 basis for this Committee and Council to take further 17 action in connection with Martini Mike's. If that 18 Martini Mike's sign goes up, I suspect there will be 19 some citizen in the community who will proceed with a 20 revocation action, and this Council will consider it, 21 including that new evidence, which is the homicide 22 that occurred after the 90 days. I thought it would 23 be useful to clarify what we're talking about with 24 respect to Martini Mike's. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Whitcomb, if you want 00031 1 to answer that question relating to the lease. 2 MR. WHITCOMB: The written lease with the 3 owner of the property for my client is contingent 4 upon the grant of the licenses before you today and 5 contingent upon removing the existing tenant, which 6 it's able to do legally within a period of 30 days, 7 if not done voluntarily. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And that is something that 9 the License Division would require prior to allowing 10 us to schedule an item; is that not correct, Ms. 11 Grill? 12 MS. GRILL: We require a copy of the 13 lease, yes. 14 MR. WHITCOMB: Mr. Chairman, I have some 15 questions. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yes, please. 17 MR. WHITCOMB: Ms. Callies, I understand 18 you're the executive director of the Westown 19 Association? 20 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 21 MR. WHITCOMB: And you were kind enough or 22 your association was kind enough to present to my 23 office your letter of September 13th, 2010 from the 24 Westown Association from which you refer to today 25 testifying, correct? 00032 1 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 2 MR. WHITCOMB: Would you be the proper 3 person to ask questions concerning statements within 4 that letter, or should I wait until other members of 5 your board to appear? 6 THE WITNESS: You may ask me. 7 MR. WHITCOMB: If you do not know, say I 8 don't know, and perhaps other board members who are 9 here would have that information. 10 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. 11 MR. WHITCOMB: Directing your attention to 12 a statement in the letter that states the area 13 continues to be part of traditional retail spine in 14 downtown Milwaukee, correct? 15 THE WITNESS: Correct. 16 MR. WHITCOMB: In that retail spine, can 17 you indicate to the committee what were the last five 18 new retail establishments that opened in that spine? 19 THE WITNESS: The last five? I can't tell 20 you by date, not specifically, but I do specifically 21 list in that letter some of our downtown major retail 22 anchors, and that's, like I said, Boston Store, 23 Office Depot, Borders Books. 24 MR. WHITCOMB: Has there been a new retail 25 establishment open in downtown Milwaukee anywhere 00033 1 from the lake to 6th Street along Wisconsin Avenue or 2 within a block on either side in the last year, just 3 one? 4 THE WITNESS: I do have a representative 5 from the shops of Grand Avenue here from the Board of 6 Directors that can probably testify very specifically 7 about the dates of retail stores opening. 8 MR. WHITCOMB: Not the dates, just the 9 existence. If you don't know, you don't know. I 10 understand you run the outfit, you're not necessarily 11 the policy maker of the outfit. You mentioned -- the 12 letter mentions the 2009 downtown retail plan, 13 correct? 14 THE WITNESS: Correct. 15 MR. WHITCOMB: Who put that plan together? 16 THE WITNESS: Retail Works, who's a 17 consultant hired by Milwaukee Downtown Bid 21 that 18 put the study together, an expert recognized in the 19 retail community nationwide. 20 MR. WHITCOMB: To whom was that plan 21 submitted for approval, if anyone? 22 THE WITNESS: The Bid 21, Milwaukee 23 Downtown Board paid for and endorsed that study. But 24 as far as the Department of City Development also was 25 working hand in hand with Milwaukee Downtown on the 00034 1 development of that plan. And Deb Tomczyk, who 2 represents BID 21, is here. She can give you more 3 specifics about that. She's a member of the 4 Milwaukee Downtown Board of Directors. 5 MR. WHITCOMB: Would that be best, or 6 should I go through the questions -- 7 THE WITNESS: Feel free to ask Deb those 8 questions. She would be better able to answer those 9 for you. 10 MR. WHITCOMB: Most of my questions are 11 detailed questions, get into the detailed background 12 for the statements made in your letter. Would it be 13 best to speak to a board member regarding those as 14 opposed to yourself? 15 THE WITNESS: And they are about retail 16 specifically? 17 MR. WHITCOMB: I'll just continue. If you 18 say I don't know, I don't know, that's fine. You're 19 not obligated. 20 THE WITNESS: Sure. 21 MR. WHITCOMB: The plan, the downtown 22 retail plan that we mentioned 2009, does that show 23 how many vacant buildings there are in the downtown 24 right now? 25 THE WITNESS: Milwaukee Downtown Bid 21 00035 1 has done that research, and once again, Deb might be 2 able to answer that, but they have a full-time retail 3 recruiter on staff at Milwaukee Downtown that is 4 working -- She has inventoried the vacancies in 5 those catalytic areas and is now working with the 6 property owners to fill those. 7 MR. WHITCOMB: So you don't know whether 8 or not the plan -- I'm just talking about the -- 9 THE WITNESS: The specific -- I don't know 10 -- I'm sure it does, but those vacancies evolve, 11 they're never the same. We have stores that leave 12 and come, so it's kind of a number that's always in 13 flux. 14 MR. WHITCOMB: Your document, your letter 15 also indicates that there's -- you've mentioned five 16 catalytic retail zones, correct? 17 THE WITNESS: Um-hum. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Whitcomb, pardon me. 19 We have probably 20, 30, 40, 50 e-mails that were 20 sent to various aldermen and/or the License Division 21 in advance of this particular hearing. Unless that 22 document is made part of the record in which that 23 individual is present and provides the submission of 24 that to us, and it is made by motion part of the 25 record, it is not for consideration by this body. As 00036 1 such at this point here, you are detailing and 2 raising questions from a document that is not under 3 consideration. The actual fact is is we wind up 4 getting 60 e-mails, of which perhaps, maybe if we're 5 lucky, 10 or 15 of those people are here. We must 6 take direct testimony from individuals, and what we 7 have before us is the questions that should be raised 8 based on the testimony and/or evidence that is 9 submitted to this body that is part of the record and 10 under consideration. The fact that that has not been 11 made part of the record means that you are raising 12 questions from something that is not before us and 13 under consideration. So I want to ask you to 14 relegate your questions to the testimony that may be 15 considered by this body and not that which frankly is 16 in no man's land, and I consider that document at 17 this point in no man's land. 18 MR. WHITCOMB: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: There would need to be 20 from this body a request and a submission, if there's 21 a desire to include that in the record. I need to 22 hear it from the body, a motion to that effect. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So moved. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Motion by Alderman 25 Zielinski. Do you have that document? 00037 1 THE WITNESS: I do. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Is that an exact document 3 that you've previously provided here? 4 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Motion by Alderman 6 Zielinski is to make a September 13th, 2010 letter 7 that is from the Westown Association signed by 8 executive director Stacie Callies part of our 9 official record in this proceeding. Are there any 10 objections to that? Hearing none, so ordered. Thank 11 you. You may proceed. 12 MR. WHITCOMB: That's two pages? 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Correct. And I'll ask 14 that you please try to keep your questioning tight 15 and concisive. 16 MR. WHITCOMB: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I 17 shall do that. Your letter indicates and references 18 five catalytic retail zones in downtown Milwaukee, 19 correct? 20 THE WITNESS: Correct. 21 MR. WHITCOMB: And you indicate that 3rd 22 and Wisconsin Avenue is within one of those catalytic 23 retail zones? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 MR. WHITCOMB: And that retail zone calls 00038 1 for sporting goods and equipment and casual apparel 2 at this location? 3 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 4 MR. WHITCOMB: Have there been any 5 overtures to any sporting good store or casual 6 apparel retailer for this location? 7 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge. 8 MR. WHITCOMB: And I understand that the 9 concern is retailers for downtown Milwaukee to 10 service customers. Where would the retail customers 11 for retailers downtown come from? 12 THE WITNESS: Our base is made up of our 13 downtown residential base as well as the daytime work 14 population as well as people, generally, as well as 15 the visitors and tourists to the neighborhood. We 16 have a high density of hotel rooms downtown, as well. 17 MR. WHITCOMB: You indicate that the 18 gentleman's club could be a major deterrent to 19 retailers who may otherwise consider locations within 20 this area, correct? 21 THE WITNESS: Correct. 22 MR. WHITCOMB: Can you identify any 23 retailers would have considered this location? 24 THE WITNESS: We have a retail recruiter 25 on staff at Bid 21. Many of those discussions that 00039 1 she has are confidential. I mean, we're not going to 2 come here, neither my organization or Bid 21, and 3 state specifically who's considering a lease because 4 those issues are very confidential until the legal 5 documents are signed. 6 MR. WHITCOMB: Does Westown have any 7 empirical evidence that would indicate factually that 8 a gentlemen's club would be adverse a retail 9 establishment? 10 THE WITNESS: No. As we stated at our 11 board meeting, perception is very important in 12 economic development, and this gentlemen's club will 13 be a detriment to the perception of the downtown 14 neighborhood. So we're going on the perception here. 15 MR. WHITCOMB: What would that perception 16 be? 17 THE WITNESS: The perception is that this 18 is not good for property values, this is not a 19 positive thing. When a major retailer is coming into 20 our downtown, they're not going to say -- 21 MR. WHITCOMB: Is it because of the type 22 of entertainment? 23 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. 24 MR. WHITCOMB: So at this location, if it 25 was just a theater that had plays, such as you have 00040 1 at the Marcus Center, there wouldn't be an objection 2 to it as you have objected to this? 3 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. 4 MR. WHITCOMB: And would there be an 5 objection if it was perhaps a comedy club? 6 THE WITNESS: Probably not. 7 MR. WHITCOMB: Your letter indicated that 8 there was a belief that the gentlemen's club would 9 have an adverse impact on property values; is that 10 correct? 11 THE WITNESS: Correct. 12 MR. WHITCOMB: Do you have any empirical 13 data, any factual evidence that would establish that 14 the presence of a gentlemen's club adversely affected 15 property values adjacent to it anywhere in this 16 country? 17 THE WITNESS: I do not. I do have 18 property owners here in the audience who are willing 19 to testify to their thoughts on how this will impact 20 their property values. 21 MR. WHITCOMB: No further questions, Mr. 22 Chairman. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Next witness, please. 24 THE WITNESS: Name is Debbie Tomczyk. I'm 25 an attorney representing Milwaukee Downtown, which is 00041 1 the Business Improvement District 21, 1000 North 2 Water Street. I'm also here -- Beth Nicols, the 3 executive director, unfortunately, was out of town 4 was planning to be of town. I'm here in her stead. 5 I'm here to report on the vote that was taken by the 6 Board of Business Improvement District 21 at their 7 annual meeting last Thursday. They voted unanimously 8 to oppose both the Class B Tavern and Tavern 9 Amusement license at 730 North Old World Third 10 Street. The basis of their objection is that such 11 licenses would be in direct conflict with the 12 Downtown Area Comprehensive Plan Update that was 13 adopted by the Zoning Neighborhood Development 14 Committee just last Wednesday, and it also, as Ms. 15 Callies indicated, is against Bid 21's own downtown 16 Milwaukee streetfront retail strategy and in 17 particular our merchandise mix plan. 18 Business Improvement District 21 is made 19 up of over 120 blocks of the downtown area, it has 20 almost $2 million of property tax assessed value 21 within the downtown area, represents all of the 22 downtown businesses in downtown, and their focus in 23 the last year has really been on strategic retail 24 initiatives, including the Central Business District 25 Focus Plan, on which they partnered with the 00042 1 Department of City Development to offer white box 2 grants and loans to retail streetfront retailers, to 3 try to re-tenant vacant space consistent with our 4 merchandise mix plan. Most recently for the holiday 5 season, a Retail Emporium, where we'll be having -- 6 we have I believe it was four retailers already 7 committed to have temporary spaces for holiday 8 downtown locations, retail streetfront locations, all 9 of whom have expressed an interest in having a 10 long-term presence in downtown, and it is that kind 11 of positive streetfront pedestrian-friendly retail 12 activity that downtown Milwaukee is really focusing 13 on right now. Thank you. And I would also echo many 14 of the comments that were made by Ms. Callies. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are there questions by 16 Committee? Questions by the attorney representing 17 the Applicant? 18 MR. WHITCOMB: Thank you, Ms. Tomczyk. My 19 name is Mike Whitcomb, fellow attorney. The concern 20 is what some city planners may perceive to be the 21 misdirection of this focus on retail regarding 22 downtown Milwaukee, and the reason for that is that 23 there is a substantial amount of vacant property, 24 unoccupied office space and -- 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Whitcomb, is this your 00043 1 closing? 2 MR. WHITCOMB: No, it's not. 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If you could please direct 4 her to a question. 5 MR. WHITCOMB: The concern should be with 6 occupying space with office tenants, commercial 7 tenants, which provide the patrons for the retail 8 establishments that would follow thereafter. Do you 9 believe and does Bid 21 believe the vacant office 10 space downtown is less detrimental to the development 11 of retail downtown than would be an exotic nite club 12 downtown? 13 THE WITNESS: I think we believe that any 14 vacancies in downtown can be re-tenanted with 15 positive retail activities, and that's the focus of 16 our current downtown initiatives, including 17 partnering with DCD on the white Box Loan Grant 18 Program and our holiday retail initiative, where 19 we're really focusing on storefront shops, women's 20 clothing shops, chocolate shops, coffee shops, items 21 of those vintage. 22 MR. WHITCOMB: Have there been any new 23 retailers that have entered the downtown market in 24 2010? 25 THE WITNESS: Our first long-term lease 00044 1 was signed on Milwaukee Street, I think it's Boutique 2 Voir. That was just opened this year. 3 MR. WHITCOMB: What hundred block on 4 Milwaukee Street? 5 THE WITNESS: It's about the 1000 block of 6 Milwaukee Street. Retailers on that block. In 7 addition to that, we have four holiday temporary 8 retailers who are coming in as part of our holiday 9 initiative for our retail emporium, and those are not 10 in place, but they should be in place before the 11 November 1st start of the holiday shopping season. 12 MR. WHITCOMB: And downtown Milwaukee has 13 had a problem attracting retailers for about 40 14 years, correct? 15 THE WITNESS: I don't know whether I'm 16 qualified to say that. I think that the planning 17 efforts that Bid 21 and the City of Milwaukee 18 Department of City Development, quite honestly, are 19 partnering right now to spur positive economic 20 development including retail that's going to be 21 downtown. 22 MR. WHITCOMB: Thank you. 23 MR. OLSON: Just so it's clear, you object 24 much more strenuously to a gentlemen's club because 25 of the proposed entertainment program than you would 00045 1 to a regular bar, correct? 2 THE WITNESS: We object to anything that 3 falls outside of the merchandise mix plan, which I 4 think, as Ms. Callies indicated, we hired a 5 nationally known retail recruiter, and we have now 6 hired our own retail recruiter locally to spur that 7 kind of retail activity, so anything that falls 8 outside of that identified merchandise mix plan that 9 I believe is part of the adopted or recommended for 10 adoption Downtown Area Comprehensive Plan, anything 11 outside of that would be an objection to us. 12 MR. OLSON: Are you saying that a regular 13 bar would be outside the plan, and if you are, has 14 your organization appeared and opposed regular bars? 15 THE WITNESS: In the past Milwaukee 16 Downtown has opposed a couple of bars. I think we're 17 focusing more on each individual establishment and 18 looking at any individual proposal on its own merits 19 on a case-by-case basis. I think we would look at 20 restaurant activities and food activities in 21 conjunction with any tavern license and whether or 22 not the proposal were just for tavern or just for 23 entertainment or a combination of those, but that 24 would have to be looked at independently by the 25 board. 00046 1 MR. OLSON: Are you able to say whether 2 your board is focusing on this establishment because 3 of its entertainment program? 4 THE WITNESS: The vote that was taken by 5 the board was for the two particular licenses that 6 are here before this Committee today, yes. 7 MR. OLSON: Thank you. No further 8 questions. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Next witness, 10 please. 11 THE WITNESS: My name is Kate Erd, and I'm 12 representing The Spice House on 1031 North Old World 13 Third Street. It's a retail establishment specialty 14 store. We've been in business for 53 years and on 15 Old World Third Street for about 30 of those years, 16 and we are opposed to the licensing of Silk. Again, 17 we believe in more retail establishments in all those 18 vacant areas. We also support Bid 21 as Westown 19 Board of Directors in the marketing mix that they're 20 trying to bring in more retail stores into the area. 21 Our fear is is by establishing more bars or nite 22 clubs into the area, it will deter retail stores from 23 opening into those vacancies. And as we have seen 24 over the last few years, many of those retail stores 25 have gone out of business. But if we continue to add 00047 1 more bars and nite clubs, it's saturating the area 2 with this type of venue, it's pushing out those 3 retail stores. Those retail stores are no longer 4 thriving in downtown Milwaukee, where it has been 5 always a retail area. When you get places into the 6 convention areas, the first thing they're looking for 7 is shopping, and we don't have that in downtown 8 Milwaukee as we once did, and again, our belief is in 9 the marketing mix of getting more retail stores into 10 the downtown area. Thank you. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Further 12 questions by committee of this witness? Any 13 questions? 14 MR. OLSON: I have one. Is it possible 15 that an upscale gentlemen's club that attracts only a 16 clientele capable of paying a $20 cover charge and 17 top shelf drink prices would be more conducive to a 18 retail environment than a regular bar such as, for 19 example, Martini Mike's? 20 THE WITNESS: We would be opposed to 21 either/or, because, again, we feel that it's 22 important to have a good mix of not only nite clubs, 23 bars, restaurants but also retail stores, and we're 24 losing in that market retail stores, so we would be 25 opposed to both. 00048 1 MR. WHITCOMB: One question, ma'am. What 2 do you believe is the cause of the failure of retail 3 sales in downtown Milwaukee? 4 THE WITNESS: Personally, I think it's the 5 economy. I think it's the markup on liquor is way 6 more than the markup on -- 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You don't need to answer 8 that question here in terms of its relevance to the 9 license. Did you have additional follow-ups, Mr. 10 Whitcomb? 11 MR. WHITCOMB: No, Mr. Chairman. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Because we could ask her 13 whether she thinks the Bucks are going to win this 14 year. 15 THE WITNESS: No comment. 16 MR. WHITCOMB: She made a comment that 17 retail is no longer thriving in downtown Milwaukee. 18 I wanted to know if she had an opinion as to why it's 19 no longer thriving. 20 THE WITNESS: Again, it's the economy. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I understand that. I'm 22 trying to keep it tight in terms of relevance. We 23 can add a zillion hours of time, and you can ask her 24 what her opinion is of the proper type of retail and 25 go to the Nth degree. I'm hoping not to go there. 00049 1 I'm trying to keep it as close and tight as I can to 2 the licensed establishment before us. I realize it's 3 never perfect. 4 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Mr. Chair, I'll be happy 5 to answer that question. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No, thank you. You can 7 hold a press conference later on that one. Thank 8 you, Ms. Erd. Next witness, please. 9 THE WITNESS: Good morning. My name is 10 Jerry Franke, president of Wispark, LLC, which is the 11 real estate development arm of Wisconsin Energy 12 Corporation. I'm here to voice our opposition. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We will need an address. 14 THE WITNESS: 301 West Wisconsin Avenue, 15 Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 53203. Wisconsin Energy 16 Corporation has made substantial investment in the 17 immediate area of the proposed gentlemen's club. 18 When we fought hard to maintain -- when I say we, the 19 City of Milwaukee was in the team -- when we fought 20 hard to keep the then Sak's regional headquarters 21 here, which was being heavily woed to go to Chicago, 22 we stepped up and made a significant investment in 23 the former Boston Store building to both retain the 24 650 jobs associated with the offices and the 200 jobs 25 associated with downtown's only department store. We 00050 1 also invested considerable funds to renovate the 2 vacant space into 74 unique apartments, which some 3 day hope to be sold off as condos. 4 We then stepped up and made a substantial 5 investment in the 211 West Wisconsin Building, which 6 was a pretty ugly old building that now looks 7 completely different, which was vacant then and is 8 now home to more than 300 employees. We also 9 renovated the Matthews Brothers Building, which is 10 immediately south by one-half block at the corner of 11 3rd and Wisconsin. We do not believe that this 12 proposed use is in the overall best interest of 13 attracting additional investment or shoring up the 14 investment we have made, we being the State of 15 Wisconsin, the City of Milwaukee, Wispark, and 16 others. We also feel that there are more appropriate 17 locations for this type of use, where it's not being 18 dropped into an area which is not primarily an 19 entertainment or liquor establishment area but 20 primarily office and retail. So we are opposed to 21 it. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Questions by 23 Committee? Questions from your side of the table? 24 MR. OLSON: The main reason you're opposed 25 is because of the proposed entertainment for Silk 00051 1 East? 2 THE WITNESS: I am familiar with numerous 3 municipalities that have spent millions of dollars to 4 relocate adult uses from areas where they are trying 5 to attract investment. I've never heard of one 6 municipality that has offered incentives for such 7 businesses to be in their area. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Any other questions? 9 Thank you. Next witness, please. 10 THE WITNESS: Ralph Peterman, 275 West 11 Wisconsin Avenue. I represent The Shops of Grand 12 Avenue, and I strongly oppose the licensing for this 13 club. Our company has spent millions of dollars on 14 downtown Milwaukee at The Shops of Grand Avenue, and 15 I guess I just agree with what everybody else has 16 said previous to this. I know there's a number of 17 people behind me, so if there's any questions. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Peterman, what do you 19 represent in term of The Shops of Grand Avenue? 20 THE WITNESS: I represent the ownership. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The ownership interests? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The name of that ownership 24 interest is what? 25 THE WITNESS: Ashkenazy Acquisitions 00052 1 Corporation. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Your role in representing 3 them is what? 4 THE WITNESS: I'm a regional 5 vice-president and a general manager of Shops of 6 Grand Avenue. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you for clarifying 8 that. Anything further by Committee? Questions? 9 MR. WHITCOMB: No. 10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, sir. Next 11 witness, please. 12 THE WITNESS: Hi. My name is Lisa Marie 13 Dallas. I live at 734 North Old World Third Street, 14 Apartment 45. I live in the building on the fourth 15 floor directly above the proposed space. I had 16 written and filed a letter of objection dated August 17 20th with the City Clerk. Alderman Bauman has many 18 of my e-mails and a copy of that letter in his 19 e-mail. My objections in that letter were based upon 20 the noise that was produced by Martini Mike's, 21 and my fear that the noise level would be increased 22 within the building itself from the sound system. 23 Martini Mike's was only open two nights a 24 week. This place, I assume, would be open five, six, 25 seven nights a week until 2:00, 2:30 a.m. I often 00053 1 have to work at 7:00 a.m., and the noise generated 2 within the building keeps me up at night, and I'm 3 unable to function for work in the morning. Beyond 4 that, I would be afraid that every time I have to 5 leave or come into the building by myself 6 unaccompanied, I would have to pass through a crowd 7 of this newly-proposed club clientele. I'm sure 8 you're aware that starting in July of this year, 9 State of Wisconsin imposed an indoor public smoking 10 ban, which would force their clientele out onto the 11 street to smoke and force all the single women and 12 children in my building and the neighboring Grand 13 Wisconsin Building. 14 In case you didn't know, there are a few 15 hundred people who live on the block, that's our 16 home, will have to pass through this crowd. There's 17 no way that they can guarantee that the area will be 18 secure outside of the club. I'm sure their security 19 will be fine inside the club, but once the clientele 20 is out on the street, say there's a client indoor who 21 got out of control and tried to touch one of the 22 dancers and is ejected from the club, then he is out 23 on the street, and I have to deal with it because I 24 have to pass through it. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you for your 00054 1 testimony. Questions by Committee? Questions? 2 MR. OLSON: Was there a bar on this 3 location when you moved into your apartment? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, there was. 5 MR. OLSON: Was it a sound problem from 6 day one for you? 7 THE WITNESS: No. 8 MR. OLSON: Why not? 9 THE WITNESS: It escalated over time. 10 MR. OLSON: When it changed from The 11 Velvet Room to Martini Mike's? 12 THE WITNESS: It was Martini Mike's when I 13 moved in, but Martini Mike's was actually not that 14 much of a problem when I first moved in in April of 15 2008. 16 MR. OLSON: So it would be possible to run 17 a bar operation or an entertainment with music 18 operation there without being a sound problem, as far 19 as you're concerned? 20 THE WITNESS: I would have to hear the 21 level of noise that things generate. 22 MR. OLSON: Have you ever been in an 23 upscale gentlemen's club to assess the level of 24 sound? 25 THE WITNESS: I have been in an upscale 00055 1 gentlemen's club in three continents, actually. 2 That's exactly why I object . 3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: She's honest. 4 THE WITNESS: Three different continents. 5 MR. OLSON: Does the following ring true: 6 They don't want to have the music so loud that the 7 gentleman that go in can't carry on a conversation 8 with each other or with the entertainers? 9 THE WITNESS: The music was extremely loud 10 every place I went. You had to shout to talk to the 11 person next to you. 12 MR. OLSON: No further questions. 13 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Mr. Chair, if I could. 14 The record should reflect that their application 15 proposes a seven-day-per-week operation from 11:00 16 a.m. to 2:00 a.m. 17 THE WITNESS: Actually, I work in the 18 building in my apartment on my computer, and that 19 kind of noise even in the daytime would be a huge 20 problem for me. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you for your 22 testimony. Next witness, please. 23 THE WITNESS: Hi. My name is Crystal 24 Cudworth. I also reside at 734 North Old World Third 25 Street. I agree with the comments made and am in 00056 1 strong opposition to the Silk East moving into my 2 building. I believe that it would be unsafe 3 conditions. I attend MIAD, Milwaukee Institute of 4 Art & Design, and I know it's a strong community in 5 this location, and it would just be very unsafe for 6 young people, with the mix of a lot of testosterone 7 and alcohol. I think it's pretty straightforward. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. I think that's 9 probably true of just about every bar that ever 10 existed, as well, too, but I appreciate that. 11 THE WITNESS: The entertainment will 12 produce a lot more. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I understand. Thank you. 14 Questions by Committee? Questions of this witness? 15 MR. WHITCOMB: So your primary objection 16 is to the type of entertainment -- 17 THE WITNESS: And safety. 18 MR. WHITCOMB: -- that would be 19 authorized, and that's the exotic dancing? 20 THE WITNESS: Correct. 21 MR. WHITCOMB: Thank you. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you for your 23 testimony. Next witness, please. 24 THE WITNESS: My name is Sherrie Summers. 25 I reside at 322 West State Street, and I work at 310 00057 1 West Wisconsin directly across the street. In fact, 2 I'm here on behalf of CRP Commercial Services, a 3 subsidiary of Great Financial Trust, which is the 4 owners of the property directly across the street. 5 We feel that this type of entertainment would be a 6 detriment to our ability to lease to quality tenants 7 and maintain quality office space. And as a 8 resident, I think we are already oversaturated on Old 9 World Third Street. I don't believe this type of 10 venue is a good fit for Kilbourn Town, and I reject 11 the license application. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Questions by 13 Committee. Questions that you have of this witness? 14 MR. WHITCOMB: What evidence would the 15 Trust have, the owner of the property you're here on 16 behalf of, that the gentlemen's club would be a 17 deterrent to future leases? 18 THE WITNESS: We would have an objection 19 with any tavern establishment going into the space. 20 We've had several objections with Martini Mike's. 21 With this last shooting, that was like the last straw 22 for us. It's a very negative draw. People aren't 23 willing to lease space in the office building, based 24 on some of the things that have occurred with a 25 tavern being in that location. 00058 1 MR. WHITCOMB: Thank you. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Next witness. 3 THE WITNESS: My name is Barbara Ruth, I 4 live at 414 east Juneau, Apartment 312, and I oppose 5 this, and also, I oppose the liquor license, and I 6 oppose the nude dancing, both areas, I oppose it. 7 It's something when I come out of my apartment 8 building in the morning and somebody has thrown up on 9 the sidewalk or there's bottles, because I live right 10 down from Water Street, and I know that there's two 11 -- well, there's three, actually, other clubs in the 12 City of Milwaukee, and if I would have been around 13 then, I would oppose, too, but I know the one 14 gentlemen's club down at 144 East Juneau has been 15 there for 75 years, as I'm told, so it's kind of 16 grandfathered in. And the other one that's at on 17 South 1st Street has been there awhile. So I go 18 along with anybody that's been before me saying how 19 they feel about this club, oppose it. So that's 20 where I am. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Questions by 22 Committee of this witness? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. May I say one more 24 thing? I did send a letter to Alderman Nik Kovac 25 opposing this a couple weeks ago. 00059 1 MR. WHITCOMB: Ma'am, your opposition 2 would be to the type of entertainment? 3 THE WITNESS: It would be to anything that 4 is considered liquor. North Water Street has enough 5 bars down there. We don't need any more bars, as far 6 as I'm concerned. I'm against the liquor, and I'm 7 also against the nude dancing. 8 MR. WHITCOMB: The closest gentlemen's 9 club to your residence would be Art's Performing 10 Center on Juneau just west of Water, correct? 11 THE WITNESS: Right. 12 MR. WHITCOMB: Has that presented any 13 problems to you at all as a resident nearby? 14 THE WITNESS: I would believe that there's 15 -- Yes, there are residents. I was talking to a 16 young gentleman when I was waiting for the bus one 17 day. He said the noise right down there keeps him up 18 all night. Let me say this: The gentlemen's club 19 opens up at 7:00 at night, at least that's what it 20 says outside, and it closes at 2:30 in the morning, 21 and I'm generally not down in that area at that time 22 of the night, so I don't know. 23 MR. WHITCOMB: Thank you, ma'am. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you for your 25 testimony, ma'am. Next witness, please. You're down 00060 1 to four minutes, 42 seconds for opposition. 2 THE WITNESS: My name is Andrew Zabell. I 3 live in 108 West Wells Street, the Cawker Building. 4 I'm a condo owner there. I guess I have no qualms 5 with Silk at all with the way -- their business or 6 anything, I'm sure they're a well-oiled machine and 7 that. My concern is with that neighborhood area, 8 obviously as mentioned before, there is quite a few 9 vacancies, my concern is, number one, a gentlemen's 10 club perceived value-wise would hurt my property 11 value; and number two, with there being as many 12 vacancies as there is, I believe that this may be a 13 stepping stone for further gentlemen clubs coming 14 into the area. I've lived through the peer thing, 15 you know, the shootings down there and everything. 16 My concern is that with that space being open, other 17 spaces in that area, that this would just be a 18 stepping stone for more gentlemen clubs, which I 19 think would only hurt the value of the area and also 20 be basically setting the seeds for future development 21 in that area. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Questions by 23 Committee? Questions? 24 MR. WHITCOMB: What vacancies are you 25 concerned with, sir? 00061 1 THE WITNESS: There's quit a few vacancies 2 in that area. There's vacancies in the Posner 3 Building, for instance, where I believe Peer was at 4 one time. There's quite a few other things on 5 Wisconsin Avenue that are empty now, also. I guess 6 that's my big concern is that I usually -- if it is 7 successful, more businesses like that are going tgo 8 want to come into the area. 9 MR. WHITCOMB: We will oppose them. 10 THE WITNESS: You will oppose them. Well, 11 I appreciate that. But I guess that's my fear is 12 that neighborhood is very fragile right now, and I'm 13 just not sure if this is the seed that I think that 14 neighborhood should start the development with. 15 MR. WHITCOMB: Thank you, sir. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you for your 17 testimony. Next witness, please. 18 THE WITNESS: Hi. I'm Debra Usinger, and 19 I have been in the area for decades and decades, have 20 a retail business on Old World Third Street. I'm 21 also a member of the Westown Board and Bid 21. I'm 22 going to keep it sweet, because we've really 23 discussed most of all of this. I do have a letter to 24 submit. But in conclusion, I feel that it's a very 25 inappropriate use for the area, and I would like to 00062 1 ask that the license be denied. It's not consistent 2 for the catalytic area we've been talking about 3 that's part of the downtown master plan, and it's not 4 part of the merchandise mix that is part of that 5 storefront retail strategy that was developed by Bid 6 21. I'm keeping it short because we've really 7 hammered on the retail aspect. 8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Deb. Did you 9 have a copy of the letter that you wanted to submit 10 here then? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, for everyone. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Do you have a copy we can 13 present to the attorneys representing the Applicant? 14 THE WITNESS: Sure. 15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Zielinski would 16 move to make this letter provided by Deb Usinger 17 dated September 20th, 2010 part of our official 18 record in this proceeding, and hearing no objections 19 to that, so ordered. Are there any questions that 20 Committee members have at this time? 21 THE WITNESS: And also to express what 22 some people have been saying, I do feel when you look 23 at Water Street and my particular area on Old World 24 Third Street, there is a lot of saturation of 25 nighttime activity. It's been a changing 00063 1 neighborhood. We used to have far more retail in my 2 immediate neighborhood than we do now. And I agree 3 with what Kate was saying from The Spice House, that 4 it's nice to -- we need both, we need a mix, but you 5 need to have things in appropriate areas. 6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Were there any other 7 questions by Committee members? Questions from the 8 Applicant? 9 MR. OLSON: Is your objection to the 10 proposed operation of Silk East mainly based on the 11 gentlemen's club entertainment program proposed for 12 the operation? 13 THE WITNESS: Primarily, but also for the 14 license -- 15 MR. OLSON: That's all. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. We have one 17 minute, 15 seconds. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm John Hennessy. I own 19 the St. James Court Apartments at 831 West Wisconsin, 20 which is a historic building, and I do neighborhood 21 development, and I do consulting related to 22 neighborhood development. I'm a Westown Board 23 member, and I'm their economic development chair. 24 And we have, first of all, personally, I've put my 25 own money and my blood, sweat, and tears into St. 00064 1 James Court Building and to making Westown a better 2 place. 3 As far as the Westown Association and its 4 members and its board members and Bid 21, we are 5 bound and determined to get the downtown going for 6 retail, and this is kind of the last thing we'd need. 7 We're at a precarious point. We've made good 8 progress with the city, but we're right in the middle 9 of a recession, and it'd be easy grab at straws and 10 put a gentlemen's club in there to get a little 11 something going, but we need good things to get the 12 development going the right way. So that's pretty 13 much all I have to say. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Great, because we've 15 exhausted 30 minutes of time. Questions by 16 Committee? Questions that you have? 17 MR. WHITCOMB: What's the best way, in 18 your opinion, to get retail development going in 19 downtown Milwaukee? 20 THE WITNESS: Well, I think it's to have a 21 good plan, we have a good plan, and to work hard at 22 it. We're working at it. It's to take it one step 23 at a time, block and tackle. 24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sir, I'll let you come 25 forward if it's very, very brief. Again, apologies 00065 1 for everyone else, but unfortunately, we're at one. 2 THE WITNESS: My name is Ryan Wargolet, 3 1649 South 81st. I'm representing Best Western. I 4 was sent here by the GM land owner to say they do not 5 approve of this, the clientele, all the riffraff in 6 the neighborhood. If you'd open this place up, the 7 people that used to hang out there, they're going to 8 know it's open again, they're going to be drawn back 9 to the neighborhood. People at the hotel. We don't 10 want to be known for the hotel that's next to a strip 11 club or a bar where people get out of control. 12 When that happened with the shootings, 13 guests did call. I had to say I'm so sorry this had 14 to happen, you were there with your family, this is 15 something that should never happen, and we just 16 disapprove of it completely. 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Questions by 18 Committee? Was there representation from the hotel 19 at any of the renewal hearings for the previous 20 establishment here? 21 THE WITNESS: The general manager, his 22 name is Gregory McGrath, he had personal contact with 23 the person in charge of opening the strip club, and 24 he was out of town today. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm talking about the 00066 1 previous location there, meaning Martini Mike's. 2 THE WITNESS: He would come over to use 3 our fax machine, stuff like that. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No. Did anybody 5 representing your hotel ever show up in this room to 6 testify that you had concerns relating to activities 7 at that location? 8 THE WITNESS: No. 9 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. There were, 10 in fact, staff members present not representing the 11 hotel but from the hotel who were actually testifying 12 in support of Martini Mike's at the last hearing. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: That's why I do recall 14 that. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't have the whole 16 story, I was just sent here to be -- 17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I understand. You're the 18 messenger, I understand. But Alderwoman Coggs is 19 correct, and here it is. You had a representative 20 there testifying, even though there were others, 21 other neighbors in what was the former Hotel 22 Wisconsin testifying as to complaints about all sorts 23 of problematic activities, and you had a 24 representative there that was in support, and this 25 was of an establishment where there had been a gun 00067 1 and other things that had been branded, then all of a 2 sudden now somebody dies, now you're opposed. You 3 have every right to do that, but I'm just saying 4 others will scratch their heads, frankly. Any other 5 questions by Committee? Do you have any questions of 6 this witness here? 7 MR. OLSON: Yeah. You talked about your 8 employer's concern with bringing riffraff back into 9 the neighborhood. Isn't it likely that a gentlemen's 10 club catering to a high-end clientele charging a $20 11 cover charge would attract considerably less riffraff 12 than a regular bar like Martini Mike's? 13 THE WITNESS: In some cases, it would, but 14 others it would not. A lot of people have $20 to go 15 to places they enjoy. 16 MR. OLSON: Riffraff? 17 THE WITNESS: If you would have been 18 hanging around in the hours that the bar was open, 19 you would probably agree with me. 20 MR. OLSON: I have no further questions. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you for your 22 testimony. Were there individuals who are here in 23 support of the license who wish to testify? We would 24 ask individuals to come forward at this point in the 25 front row. 00068 1 MR. OLSON: We have some evidentiary 2 witnesses that we would like to call and question to 3 start off with. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I still would ask if you 5 could prepare them and have them sitting in the front 6 row. Otherwise, if the person is way in the back 7 room, and you call them, and it takes them 20 seconds 8 to walk up, I'm going to count it against your time, 9 just so you're aware. 10 MR. OLSON: Mr. Wollert first, Sergeant 11 Sebestyen next, and then that Ricky Lea. 12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Do you want to just 13 explain what you're submitting here. 14 MR. OLSON: This is a real estate study 15 that's been done by our first witness who's an expert 16 in the Milwaukee real estate market, and he's looked 17 at the impact of gentlemen's clubs versus other bars 18 and other factors on property values in particular 19 neighborhoods in Milwaukee. 20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We'll have Alderwoman 21 Coggs move to make this real estate market research 22 finding report part of our official record in this 23 proceeding, and hearing no objections to that, so 24 ordered. 25 MR. OLSON: We have some documents that 00069 1 we'd like to introduce in the official record, as 2 well. These were made available to us in connection 3 with the notice for this proceeding. The first is 4 the Milwaukee Police Department License Investigation 5 Unit synopsis on this business dated August 10th, 6 2010; the next one is the police effort to tally 7 police calls over the five-year period for this 8 location. They got no police calls because they used 9 the word "street" in the search field, and you won't 10 get any police calls if you put in the word street. 11 We found that working with the Records Department. 12 We obtained our own set of police calls for this 13 address from the Records Department just this 14 morning, and if you don't use the word street, you 15 get a whole list of police calls for the Martini 16 Mike's location, and there was a considerable list of 17 police incidents that were detailed by the Milwaukee 18 Police Department License Investigation Unit in their 19 report to this Committee dated March 16th, 2010, 20 which was submitted in connection with the run-up to 21 the suspension of the license of Martini Mike's and 22 finally the decision of the Committee for Martini 23 Mike's culminating in a 60-day suspension. We'd like 24 to make that part of the record, as well. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We'll have Alderman Kovac 00070 1 move to make these documents part of our official 2 record in this proceeding, and as indicated here, the 3 License Investigation Report -- Police Investigation 4 License Investigation Unit report for Silk East, a 5 list of police department CAD documents detailing 6 several pages, Milwaukee Police Department CAD call 7 from the address of 730 North Old World Third Street, 8 the previous synopses by the Police Department's 9 License Investigation Unit for Martini Mike's at 730 10 North Old World Third Street, as well as a packet 11 that proceeds here with a sheet from the City Clerk 12 to Mr. Kovac that includes previous Findings of Fact, 13 Conclusions of Law dated April 23rd, 2010. Alderman 14 Kovac would move make each one of these part of our 15 official record in this proceeding. Are there any 16 objections to that? Hearing none, so ordered. 17 Please proceed, if you so desire. 18 MR. OLSON: We call Randy Wollert. State 19 your name and spell your last name. 20 THE WITNESS: Randy Wollert, 21 W-O-L-L-E-R-T, 412 East Silver Spring Drive, 22 Whitefish Bay, Wisconsin. 23 MR. OLSON: What is your trade or 24 profession? 25 THE WITNESS: Real estate broker. 00071 1 MR. OLSON: How long have you been a real 2 estate broker? 3 THE WITNESS: Nine years. 4 MR. OLSON: In what area? 5 THE WITNESS: Milwaukee and Milwaukee 6 County. 7 MR. OLSON: Who are you employed by? 8 THE WITNESS: Right now, Realty 9 Executives. 10 MR. OLSON: And how long have you been 11 employed by them? 12 THE WITNESS: Realty Executives about a 13 year-and-a-half and Century 21 for about 14 seven-and-a-half years. 15 MR. OLSON: What was your success rate for 16 Century 21? 17 THE WITNESS: I was a top producer in 18 southeast Wisconsin for Century 21 for 19 seven-and-a-half years. 20 MR. OLSON: Have you ever taught market 21 analysis to other Realtors? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. I taught new 23 agents how to do a complete and accurate market 24 analysis by the city and the county. 25 MR. OLSON: The Committee members have 00072 1 accepted into evidence a document called Real Estate 2 Market Research Findings. Was this study prepared 3 under your direction? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was. 5 MR. OLSON: And have you reviewed the 6 findings? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have. 8 MR. OLSON: And in your view, are the 9 findings of this report accurate? 10 THE WITNESS: They are very accurate. 11 MR. OLSON: When we are looking to compare 12 apples to apples, looking at real estate values in 13 adult businesses, what do we mean? 14 THE WITNESS: Can you restate that? 15 MR. OLSON: Does this study of market 16 conditions in Milwaukee support the theory that 17 having an adult cabaret in a neighborhood have a 18 negative or adverse impact on the property values in 19 that neighborhood? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. It does not have a 21 negative impact. 22 MR. OLSON: Do you hold that opinion to a 23 reasonable degree of professional certainty? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 MR. OLSON: And very concisely, can you 00073 1 explain your basis for that opinion in this study. 2 THE WITNESS: We took a market analysis of 3 all properties that were sold, commercial properties 4 and residential properties, from 2004 to the present 5 day, and we found that in an area where there's been 6 a gentlemen's club, there's been no negative impact 7 that would be greater than any other agent or any 8 other residential property in the area around a 9 gentlemen's club. I used four different gentlemen's 10 clubs. 11 MR. OLSON: Is it a fact that in two of 12 those neighborhoods, the performance of the real 13 estate values in the vicinity of a gentlemen's club 14 perform better than the Milwaukee city as a whole? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, they did. I believe 16 those were Airport Lounge and On The Border. 17 MR. OLSON: Thanks. I have no further 18 questions. 19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by Committee? 20 Sir, I have a follow-up question for you. What is 21 your definition of neighborhood? 22 THE WITNESS: An area around, I'd say, 23 within 14 blocks, 14 square blocks, with the subject 24 area being the middle. 25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: What's the criteria that 00074 1 you use; a city-assessed value, whether that goes up 2 or down? 3 THE WITNESS: All the city-assessed values 4 went up in all the areas. I use days on market, how 5 many homes on the market or commercial properties on 6 the market, used all the MLS statistics, I did -- In 7 2004 to 2006 decline in prices and then from 2006 to 8 the present and with the market the way it is right 9 now, there's no substantial difference with decrease 10 in values. 11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Did you factor in a scale 12 to see if some house was a half block or two houses 13 down or to some location that may be 12 or 13 blocks 14 away, or did you collectively look at -- 15 THE WITNESS: Collectively. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So it's a generic way like 17 our city -- Are you familiar with how the City 18 assesses, creates an assessment rate based on census 19 track? 20 THE WITNESS: Somewhat. 21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So in other words, you're 22 not weighing to determine if somebody's close by 23 versus those who are 12 or 13 blocks away. They both 24 are factored equally in your calculation; is that 25 correct? 00075 1 THE WITNESS: Correct. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So in theory, you could 3 find someone who's two houses away, a block away 4 whose value goes down or sells for $3,000 below 5 assessed value, but equally factored in is the house 6 that's 10 blocks away that sells for 10,000 above 7 assessed value? 8 THE WITNESS: Correct. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: That's all. Is there 10 follow-up, Alderman Bauman? 11 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I 12 just want to make sure that you're being paid for 13 your time today? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am. 15 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: How much were you paid 16 for your services as an expert witness? 17 THE WITNESS: $200 an hour. 18 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: How many hours have you 19 invested so far? 20 THE WITNESS: Six. 21 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: I believe I heard you 22 testify that you identified two gentlemen clubs that 23 had a positive impact on real estate values in the 24 city, and that would be On The Border and Airport 25 Lounge; is that correct? 00076 1 THE WITNESS: Correct. I don't know if it 2 had a positive impact on the values, but the values 3 didn't go down. 4 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Given your expertise in 5 the real estate industry, would you say that the 6 neighborhood of the Airport Lounge and the 7 neighborhood surrounding On The Border are somewhat 8 different than the central business district of 9 Milwaukee? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Thank you. No further 12 questions. 13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Call your next witness. 14 MR. OLSON: Sergeant Justin Sebestyen. 15 Please state your name, spell your last name, and 16 give your business address. 17 THE WITNESS: Sergeant Justin Sebestyen, 18 S-E-B-E-S-T-Y-E-N. I'm assigned to District No. 4, 19 6929 West Silver Spring. 20 MR. OLSON: Are you appearing by subpoena 21 today? 22 THE WITNESS: I am. 23 MR. OLSON: Are you a police officer with 24 the Milwaukee P.D.? 25 THE WITNESS: I am. 00077 1 MR. OLSON: How long have you been serving 2 in that position? 3 THE WITNESS: Approximately, 12 years. 4 MR. OLSON: What district are you assigned 5 to? 6 THE WITNESS: I'm assigned to District No. 7 4. 8 MR. OLSON: Is that the location where the 9 Silk Gentlemen's Club is? 10 THE WITNESS: It is. 11 MR. OLSON: And what shift do you work? 12 THE WITNESS: I work the early shift, 13 which is approximately 4:00 to midnight. 14 MR. OLSON: 4:00 in the afternoon to 15 midnight? 16 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 17 MR. OLSON: Do you have a lot of occasion 18 to respond to problems at Silk? 19 THE WITNESS: I don't. 20 MR. OLSON: In terms of the number of 21 police calls that are generated by Silk, how would 22 you characterize it compared to other establishments? 23 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, on days 24 that I'm working, we don't go there. 25 MR. OLSON: Is that because Silk does not 00078 1 have problems requiring police attention? 2 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, we don't 3 get many calls for service there, and when there are 4 calls for service, there is a few auto thefts I'm 5 aware of, and as far as major incidents, it just 6 doesn't occur there. 7 MR. OLSON: How long have you known Jon 8 Ferraro, the gentlemen seated to my left here? 9 THE WITNESS: I've known Mr. Ferraro for 10 approximately 10 years. He owned another business in 11 another district I used to work in when I was a new 12 officer. 13 MR. OLSON: Which one was that? 14 THE WITNESS: That was Bada-Bing, it was 15 on 68th and Oklahoma. 16 MR. OLSON: How would you characterize 17 your professional relationship as a police officer 18 with Mr. Ferraro beginning when you first met him at 19 that location? 20 THE WITNESS: I first met Mr. Ferraro when 21 they were renovating the business at that location. 22 It was not open at the time. I had approached him 23 because that tavern was in my squad area. I advised 24 him of things that he could do to keep the problems 25 from occurring such as dress codes, security, and 00079 1 those tended to work. I didn't receive many calls 2 for service there either. 3 MR. OLSON: Do you believe that the Silk 4 operation in your district is well managed? 5 THE WITNESS: I do. 6 MR. OLSON: And do you understand that 7 Silk operates with a dress code for its patrons? 8 THE WITNESS: I do. 9 MR. OLSON: Does Silk have other policies 10 that keep riffraff or troublesome characters out? 11 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, I know that 12 security there escorts the dancers out after all the 13 patrons are gone for the evening, escorts them to 14 their vehicles. I know that they have a very large 15 parking lot which is patrolled by a vehicle, not law 16 enforcement, to deter anybody else. I know that the 17 licenses that they pull for special events are always 18 abided by. 19 MR. OLSON: In general, is it fair to say 20 that Silk caters to a well-behaved crowd? 21 THE WITNESS: I do. I don't recall any 22 fights or disorderly people on a routine basis there. 23 MR. OLSON: Do you think that having an 24 cabaret on North 3rd Street would increase the crime 25 rate there? 00080 1 THE WITNESS: I can't say that it would 2 increase or decrease the crime rate there. I don't 3 know that area specifically. However, Silk on Silver 4 Spring, the business is run very well, and it does 5 not require my officers to go there, nor do they have 6 problems there when they do. 7 MR. OLSON: Are you aware of proactive 8 measures taken by Mr. Ferraro in connection with his 9 other businesses to deal with litter? 10 THE WITNESS: I was aware that when he did 11 -- was part of Bada-Bing on Oklahoma, at the end of 12 the night his security and employees would go across 13 the street to the Science & Surplus lot and collect 14 any type of garbage or debris left in that parking 15 lot, also along Oklahoma Avenue, they'd clean up any 16 garbage and debris in the gutters. 17 MR. OLSON: Does Silk cause any problems 18 in the neighborhood? 19 THE WITNESS: I know of none simply 20 because they have such a huge lot, they don't require 21 any parking. 22 MR. OLSON: Can you think of any reason 23 why Mr. Ferraro's license applications here today 24 should be denied by this Committee? 25 THE WITNESS: If it was in relation to 00081 1 Bada-Bing or Silk, I would not have a problem, but I 2 can't make a judgment. 3 MR. OLSON: No more questions. 4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by Committee? 5 Sergeant, if I just may with a follow-up. The 6 location that they currently operate off of Lover's 7 Lane and Silver Spring, would you say that in terms 8 of its location it is night and day in how it is 9 remote, isolated from the immediate residential 10 neighborhoods and even street face, as opposed to 11 this location? 12 THE WITNESS: I would refer to it more as 13 commercial as opposed to residential, yes. 14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Would it even be fair to 15 say that it's located in an area that is highly 16 industrial or has other industrial uses? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If you talk about Silver 19 Spring Road versus Silver Spring Drive and the 20 access? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No other questions by 23 Committee? 24 MR. OLSON: Both Officer Sebestyen and Mr. 25 Wollert are here to provide generic testimony that is 00082 1 absolutely equally applicable to the 3rd Street 2 operation and to the one that's scheduled for the 3 next hearing, and we would ask the Committee if it 4 would be willing to take official notice of their 5 testimony for the sake of the next hearing, as well, 6 so that in particular Sergeant Sebestyen can be 7 released from his subpoena and get back to his 8 duties. 9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Is there any objection in 10 the Committee in doing that, in terms of providing 11 that as testimony for both hearings, at least in 12 terms of his experience with the locations? That's 13 fine from Committee and fine fom my standpoint. 14 MR. OLSON: Thank you. The other 15 witnesses will be specific to location, but Wollert 16 and Sebestyen will be for both. Thank you. We call 17 Ricky Lea. Please state your name. 18 THE WITNESS: Ricky, last name is Lea, 19 L-E-A. 20 MR. OLSON: Address, please. 21 THE WITNESS: 194 Cramer Av., that's 22 Dousman, Wisconsin. 23 MR. OLSON: What do you do? 24 THE WITNESS: I own and operate Luxury 25 Valet, which is a valet parking service that operates 00083 1 out of downtown Milwaukee. 2 MR. OLSON: How long has Luxury Valley 3 been in business? 4 THE WITNESS: Three years now. 5 MR. OLSON: What kind of service do you 6 provide? 7 THE WITNESS: Parking for nite clubs, 8 restaurants, special events, weddings. 9 MR. OLSON: Can you describe what happens 10 when a patron drives up in his car to the front door 11 of a business where you're providing valet parking 12 services. 13 THE WITNESS: One of the valets takes 14 their vehicle to the desired parking lot until the 15 patron comes back out. It's left in the parking lot 16 and brought back up by the valet. 17 MR. OLSON: Do you have clients on 18 Milwaukee Street downtown? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 20 MR. OLSON: Can you name any of them? 21 THE WITNESS: Carnivore Steak Restaurant, 22 Monimoto, Charo, Indulge, Kenadee's, 720, Zarletti's. 23 MR. OLSON: How many customers do you deal 24 with per night? 25 THE WITNESS: Roughly, a busy night 00084 1 anywhere from 1,500 to 2,000. 2 MR. OLSON: And how do you get facilities 3 to park these customers' cars in? 4 THE WITNESS: How? I lease out different 5 lots with the groups C-Pass Parking Systems, Historic 6 Third Ward. 7 MR. OLSON: And in the vicinity of the 8 businesses where you serve with your valet parking, 9 are there traffic or parking problems? 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 MR. OLSON: You have any experience 12 providing service to adult cabarets? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have. 14 MR. OLSON: Do most customers at adult 15 cabarets tend to arrive in private automobiles or by 16 taxicab or limousine? 17 THE WITNESS: That's mixed, probably 18 50/50. 19 MR. OLSON: Do a higher proportion arrive 20 by taxicab or limousine than at an ordinary bar 21 business, though, I would take it? 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I would say. 23 MR. OLSON: Does the presence of a valet 24 parking operation at an establishment in the downtown 25 Milwaukee area add to on street parking? 00085 1 THE WITNESS: Add to? No. 2 MR. OLSON: Your valets park your cars in 3 parking structures, not on the street, I take it? 4 THE WITNESS: Correct. 5 MR. OLSON: Are there parking lots 6 available to the public that people could park their 7 own cars in if they wanted to not use your valet 8 service that are reasonably convenient to this North 9 3rd Street location where we're talking about Silk's 10 application? 11 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. Directly across 12 the street is the federal parking structure. 13 MR. OLSON: Are you familiar with the 14 Walker's Point location where Mr. Ferraro is planning 15 on opening? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 MR. OLSON: Would you anticipate any 18 difficulty in finding parking structures there to 19 park cars in for your valets? 20 THE WITNESS: No. We have an agreement 21 with the Historic Third World parking on Water and 22 Chicago. 23 MR. OLSON: No further questions, and I 24 would ask this witness's testimony be considered in 25 both hearings, as well, since he would be essentially 00086 1 repeating himself in the second case. 2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are there any questions by 3 Committee, first and foremost? 4 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Do you have any 5 agreements with parking structures near the Old World 6 Third Street location? 7 THE WITNESS: Yeah. The Historic Third 8 Ward structure, 225 East Chicago. 9 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: How far is that from 10 the location? 11 THE WITNESS: Roughly, close to two blocks 12 right across the river. 13 MR. WHITCOMB: I think he misunderstood 14 your question. 15 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: From the Old World 16 Third Street location -- 17 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I'm thinking of 18 Walker's Point. They're within -- One is directly 19 east one block, the other is north one block, and 20 then the overflow lot you would use the Federal 21 Building right across the street. 22 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: But you already have 23 agreement? 24 THE WITNESS: With the other lots, it's 25 based on approval. 00087 1 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: So you have contingency 2 agreements with those structures? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. But I work with a few 4 of the lot managers through CPS, and they said 5 whenever things progress, then we could figure that 6 out. 7 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: In your work with this 8 establishment in the past, what percentage of the 9 people who come actually use the valet service? 10 THE WITNESS: They were, I guess, kind of 11 bigger parties for the Silk West, they were like the 12 Harley-Davidson event, which a lot of them came with 13 motorcycles, and we can't park motorcycles, and we 14 don't. I'd say out of those parties, 20 percent used 15 us. 16 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: So the application is 17 for seven days a week. Would your valet service be 18 there seven days a week? 19 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. 20 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: What are the hours for 21 your valet service? 22 THE WITNESS: Right now, for Milwaukee 23 Street, for example, we service them 9:00 a.m. to 24 3:00 a.m. every day, Monday through Saturday. 25 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: It would be a similar 00088 1 agreement for the Old World Third Street and the 2 Walker's Point location? 3 THE WITNESS: From what I was told, yes. 4 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions by 6 Committee? I just want to state one thing for the 7 record, though; and that is, unlike the police 8 officer who was providing -- I'd like the police 9 officer who was providing a credibility of experience 10 of the current and past operations of business, there 11 may be objections from Alderman Witkowiak and/or 12 other questions raised regarding the location of how 13 they are going to park cars there from the next 14 hearing, so I think it would be preferable -- I can't 15 guarantee there would be questions -- but I think 16 there is that possibility. I think it's fair to say 17 in terms of the operation that the officer's 18 testimony is valid. I'll state it for the record, as 19 well, too, from the fact that the operation that they 20 have at Silk is in my aldermanic district, and I 21 don't get complaints, that I have not been aware of 22 other additional police reports, police problems from 23 the perspective there, so I'll corroborate that, but 24 I can't say that the issue that we have at hand about 25 parking and valet parking. I don't know that, and 00089 1 there may be some questions with a better 2 understanding that Alderman Witkowiak or someone else 3 may have that would like to raise a question in 4 regard to that location. Does that seem fair, 5 Committee members? 6 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Um-hum. 7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. No other 8 questions? 9 MR. OLSON: In the Milwaukee Street 10 businesses that you service that do not have their 11 own parking lots or have extremely minimal parking, 12 what percentage of the customers would you say use 13 valet service? 14 THE WITNESS: 50. 15 MR. OLSON: Thank you. 16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If there are no other 17 questions, why don't we go ahead and do the switch of 18 the court reporters. 19 (Break.) 20