00001
1 CITY OF MILWAUKEE
2 UTILITIES & LICENSES COMMITTEE
3 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
4 In the Matter of:
5 LANDRY, Norman G., Class B Tavern and Tavern Dance
renewal applications for "Blue Gardenia" at
6 408 East North Avenue.
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8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS
9 ALD. JAMES BOHL, JR. - Chairman
10 Ald. Joe Davis, Sr. - Vice Chair
11 Ald. Paul Henningsen
12
13 DEPARTMENT OF NEIGHBORHOOD SERVICES by KAREN JACOBS
14 HEALTH DEPARTMENT by KEVIN HULBERT
15 CITY CLERK'S OFFICE by LEO WAGNER
16 POLICE DEPARTMENT by SERGEANT JOHN HOGAN
17 OFFICE OF THE CITY ATTORNEY by BRUCE SCHRIMPF
18 Proceedings had and testimony given in
the above-entitled matter, before the UTILITIES &
19 LICENSING COMMITTEE OF THE CITY OF MILWAUKEE, on
the 19th day of May, 2003, reported by Donna
20 Gulczynski of Milwaukee Reporters Associated, Inc.
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 (NOTE: All City Personnel Were Sworn Under
3 Oath Prior to These Proceedings.)
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We are going to go back to
5 the 10:15 agenda for Norman Landry. Mr. Landry, one
6 moment while we page through the 10:15 agenda here.
7 Alderman Henningsen, have you got this here?
8 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Yes, I do, the Blue
9 Gardenia.
10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: There's two. That's the
11 second of the two. Norman One Step is the first.
12 He's got two applications before us. Okay. I'll read
13 it into the record.
14 Norman G. Landry, Class B Tavern and Tavern
15 Dance renewal applications for Norman One Step at 3218
16 West Cameron Avenue. In fact, what I'll do is, I will
17 have Alderman Davis move for reconsideration of not
18 only that item, but for also Norman G. Landry, Class B
19 Tavern and Tavern Dance renewal applications for the
20 Blue Gardenia at 408 East North Avenue. Hearing no
21 objection, so ordered.
22 We'll take the first item up before us here.
23 That's Norman G. Landry, Class B Tavern and Tavern
24 Dance renewal applications for Norman One Step at 3218
25 West Cameron Avenue in the 1st District. Mr. Landry,
00003
1 thank you for coming and for your patience this
2 afternoon. Could you please raise your right hand,
3 Mr. Landry?
4 (Whereupon Mr. Landry was sworn under oath.)
5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And Mr. Landry, do you
6 acknowledge receiving notice of today's meeting with
7 the possibility that your application could be denied
8 due to an item in the police report?
9 MR. LANDRY: I do.
10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Going around the horn,
11 Health Department?
12 MR. HULBERT: Health Department has no
13 objection.
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Neighborhood Services?
15 MS. JACOBS: Are we looking at both right
16 away?
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We're going to look at just
18 the first item right now.
19 MS. JACOBS: No objection.
20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sergeant Hogan?
21 SERGEANT HOGAN: The items on the police
22 attachment are relevant to the other establishment, so
23 I don't know if you want to hear them now or not.
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Please, why don't we go
25 ahead and do that.
00004
1 SERGEANT HOGAN: At the applicant's other
2 premises at 408 East North Avenue, there were three
3 incidents.
4 On September the 8th, 2002, officers were
5 sent to the premises for a gun complaint; found two
6 males on the premises, both of whom had handguns
7 concealed on them. One of these individuals was
8 observed to drop a black bag containing what appeared
9 to be crack cocaine onto the floor. One individual
10 was charged with felony possession of a firearm. The
11 other individual was charged with carrying a concealed
12 weapon and possession of a controlled substance with
13 intent to deliver while armed.
14 The other incident was on September the
15 25th, 2002, at about 8:40 p.m. The officers observed
16 suspicious activity of numerous persons loitering in
17 front of the Blue Gardenia Tavern. They appeared to
18 be young in appearance, and they would enter and leave
19 occasionally. Officers entered the tavern after about
20 30 minutes of observation and found three underage
21 persons on the premises. A citation was issued to the
22 bartender for presence of underage as well as the
23 underage individuals, and there was a finding of
24 guilty on that.
25 On September 13th, 2003, at about 11:20
00005
1 p.m., officers conducted a tavern check and observed a
2 young-appearing male at a table with cans of beer and
3 empty shot glasses in front of him. He turned out to
4 be 18 years old. The bartender stated that this
5 patron produced identification as proof of age,
6 although the 18-year-old had no identification on his
7 person. The bartender was given a warning regarding
8 presence of underage, and the underage person was
9 cited.
10 And lastly, on April the 8th, 2003, at about
11 1:30 in the morning, officers responded to a shooting
12 at Blue Gardenia Tavern. The licensee and the
13 bartender stated that someone shot five times through
14 the front door. The fire department treated an
15 individual who turned out to be underage. She was
16 shot in the leg. Investigation revealed that there
17 was an argument on the premises between two women.
18 One of them left with three males, and moments later
19 someone fired five shots through the door. Citations
20 for presence of underage to the bartender and to the
21 licensee are pending in municipal court. That's all.
22 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman, as to the
23 underage, you understand that the committee cannot use
24 that in a renewal decision.
25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Correct. And it also
00006
1 pertains to the other establishment as well, too.
2 MR. SCHRIMPF: Right.
3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Landry, all of these are
4 events that occurred at the Blue Gardenia and not at
5 the licensed location that we have before us, the
6 Norman One Step. Unless the committee asks otherwise,
7 I'll just ask him to respond to that when we take the
8 next item up here at this point.
9 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Brief question.
10 What's the one on Cameron like?
11 MR. LANDRY: Pardon?
12 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: What's the place on
13 Cameron like? What's your capacity? What's your
14 clientele. How long --
15 MR. LANDRY: It's 30 capacity.
16 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Huh?
17 MR. LANDRY: It's 30 capacity.
18 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: All right. How long
19 have you run that one?
20 MR. LANDRY: This will be the third year.
21 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: And there's been no
22 police problems, no calls?
23 MR. LANDRY: None whatsoever.
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. With that, any other
25 questions? With that, Alderman Henningsen will move
00007
1 approval of the licensed application for the Norman
2 One Step, the Class B Tavern and Tavern Dance.
3 Hearing no objection, so ordered.
4 The next item before us is Norman G. Landry,
5 Class B Tavern and Tavern Dance renewal applications
6 for Blue Gardenia at 408 East North Avenue. We'll go
7 around the horn. Health Department?
8 MR. HULBERT: Health Department has no
9 objection.
10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Neighborhood Services?
11 MS. JACOBS: No objection. However, we'd
12 like him to be aware of outstanding building code
13 orders on the property.
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. And Mr. Landry, you
15 heard the report as it was just read in by Sergeant
16 Hogan here. I'm going to give you an opportunity to
17 respond to any -- raise any questions or relay any
18 feelings you have about any of the items that were
19 read into the record here just a moment ago.
20 MR. LANDRAY: No, I know of the record. I
21 met with Policeman -- I think it's Flores, the police
22 captain of the 4th District. He had me to come in and
23 talk with him, and he asked me what I would do to
24 alleviate the problem that I was having there. And
25 I've been in the tavern business for about 35 years,
00008
1 and this is the first time that I've come up with
2 problems like this. So one solution was I had to
3 terminate the bartender.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. You're stating for
5 the record that the bartender who --
6 MR. LANDRY: Yeah, that was on duty at that
7 time. Well, I had to terminate him. And I will be
8 working myself to make sure that these things will not
9 occur again.
10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay.
11 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Mr. Chairman.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Henningsen.
13 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: So you fired the
14 bartender. With all due respect, this place has been
15 a hot spot for a number of years, correct? It's been
16 sort of a jumping joint, right?
17 MR. LANDRY: Not really.
18 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Not really? What's
19 your capacity?
20 MR. LANDRY: They have a 30 capacity there.
21 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: A 30 capacity. And
22 it's been open for 35 years?
23 MR. LANDRY: No, this one haven't been. The
24 Blue Gardenia was on Hubbard and Vine, and then I
25 moved there about three years ago.
00009
1 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: So the Blue Gardenia's
2 been in business, but not at this location, for 30
3 some years?
4 MR. LANDRY: No, not at this location. It's
5 a different location.
6 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: All right. With all
7 due respect, you're getting on to the twilight years,
8 so to speak.
9 MR. LANDRY: That's right.
10 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Is this a little tough
11 for you to handle by yourself? Do you have any
12 security?
13 MR. LANDRY: Well, I don't have to be open
14 every night.
15 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: All right. Do you
16 have any security?
17 MR. LANDRY: Security?
18 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Yeah.
19 MR. LANDRY: No.
20 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Do you wand or check
21 for metals or weapons at the door?
22 MR. LANDRY: No.
23 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Why did you have these
24 problems? There's four major police problems in the
25 last year. If that happened downtown, the guy would
00010
1 be hearing bloody murder from me, I know that.
2 MR. LANDRY: I don't know. I guess it's a
3 different clientele, different in the area, that would
4 create the problem. Another thing I can do is up the
5 age limit, you know, because the police said it was
6 perfectly all right for me to raise the age limit to a
7 higher age limit.
8 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Is that legal? I
9 don't think so. If they're over 21, they can get in,
10 right?
11 MR. COPELAND: Right.
12 MR. LANDRY: Well, I talked to Captain
13 Flores about it, and he said you can put the age limit
14 to whatever you want.
15 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: You can B.S. about it,
16 25 and over, but I mean if I came and I was 21, you'd
17 have to let me in. Right?
18 MR. COPELAND: That's correct.
19 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: All right. Now, this
20 is two in September, one in February, one just a month
21 ago, which was shootings into the bar because
22 something happened to kick someone out, and they came
23 back and retaliated. What the heck was that about?
24 What was the victim -- She had a bunch of boy friends
25 with guns?
00011
1 MR. LANDRY: It was two ladies arguing. I
2 was there that night.
3 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Yeah. Both minors.
4 MR. LANDRY: Yeah, and they all left.
5 Everybody left.
6 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Both minors, these
7 ladies?
8 MR. LANDRY: Both what?
9 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Minors.
10 MR. LANDRY: No, they wasn't no minors.
11 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: One of them was, it
12 says in the police report.
13 MR. LANDRY: Not that incident. The guy
14 that got shot was a minor.
15 MR. SCHRIMPF: A reminder to the committee,
16 because there have not been two convictions within the
17 year, you cannot use the underage piece of this.
18 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Can you use it as an
19 incident?
20 MR. SCHRIMPF: No.
21 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Underage you can't.
22 MR. SCHRIMPF: No, 125.12. No, no, no.
23 Unless there's two in one year.
24 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: It's a police call.
25 MR. SCHRIMPF: Look, I'm only the lawyer.
00012
1 Do what you want to do.
2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead, Alderman.
3 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: How would you
4 characterize this past year? This is the worst
5 one of your career, you've never had any of these
6 problems before.
7 MR. LANDRY: The worst of my career.
8 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: So tell the committee
9 generally what you're going to do about it to prevent
10 this next licensed year be a repeat.
11 MR. LANDRY: Well, what I'm going to do is
12 I'm going to work myself. I'm not going to have
13 anybody else to work. I'll be there personally
14 myself.
15 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: I know, but that's --
16 You're going to work and no other employee? Are you
17 going to have any other employees?
18 MR. LANDRY: I may have somebody to help me,
19 you know, and not me just steady work myself, but it
20 more than likely would be a woman.
21 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Do you check
22 identification cards at the door --
23 MR. LANDRY: Oh, yeah.
24 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: -- all the time? How
25 many do you confiscate on any average weekend?
00013
1 MR. LANDRY: Usually they turn around. If
2 they come around and don't have an I.D., or if they
3 have one that's fake, and I say it's a fake, they will
4 turn around and go away.
5 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Okay.
6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Other questions by
7 committee at this time?
8 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chair.
9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Davis.
10 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Landry, is Derry Gross
11 the same as who is referred to in Item No. 4 as Gary
12 Gross?
13 MR. LANDRY: They're the same.
14 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Those are the two same --
15 MR. LANDRY: That's the same person, yeah.
16 ALDERMAN DAVIS: And you stated before that
17 you have terminated his employment because of this
18 incident?
19 MR. LANDRY: As of tonight.
20 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Excuse me?
21 MR. LANDRY: Tonight is his last night of
22 work.
23 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Tonight is his last night?
24 MR. LANDRY: Right.
25 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Is it because of -- Well,
00014
1 how long has he been employed by you, sir?
2 MR. LANDRY: For about a year.
3 ALDERMAN DAVIS: For about a year?
4 MR. LANDRY: Yeah.
5 ALDERMAN DAVIS: And when you have a
6 bartender, is he pretty much the manager of your
7 establishment? Is he responsible for who comes and
8 adhering to the law?
9 MR. LANDRY: He's definitely responsible.
10 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Because I do have some
11 concerns with these four incidences that you had at
12 your tavern, there's no doubt about it. Particularly
13 the one that had to deal with firearms, and the one
14 incident that had to do with a shooting. So, we just
15 had to give another establishment a 10-day suspension,
16 Mr. Chair, and I would move that --
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: One moment. I do have a
18 follow-up question, Alderman Davis, before we get to
19 that here. Are you finished in terms of your
20 questioning here?
21 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Yes.
22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, thank you.
23 Mr. Landry, what's the capacity of the Blue Gardenia?
24 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Thirty.
25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: This one is 30, and your
00015
1 other establishment is how much?
2 MR. LANDRY: It's 30 or either 25. I think
3 25 is the other one.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So these are two small
5 places.
6 MR. LANDRY: They're small places, yeah.
7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You indicated you were here
8 on one of the nights on which one of these incidents
9 occurred.
10 MR. LANDRY: I was.
11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Do you spend more of your
12 time running the other establishment that you own?
13 MR. LANDRY: No. I spend more time at that
14 one because I live there. I live above the tavern
15 there at 408.
16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You live above --
17 MR. LANDRY: I live above the tavern, yes.
18 MR. SCHRIMPF: And 408 is the Blue Gardenia?
19 MR. LANDRY: Right. And I live at 410,
20 above the tavern.
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Would you say that,
22 in your words, that you've had a fair number of
23 problems here at this establishment in the last year?
24 MR. LANDRY: I've had more problems
25 there than I ever had anyplace, even when I was at
00016
1 another location. I've only had problems since I've
2 been there. I never had any problems with anyplace
3 before.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And how would you
5 characterize -- This 410 East North Avenue, is that --
6 is that east or west of the river? Is that west of
7 the river?
8 MR. LANDRY: That's west of the river.
9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. That's all that
10 I have in terms of questioning. Any other questions
11 of Mr. Landry?
12 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Mr. Chairman, for the
13 city attorney.
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead, Alderman
15 Henningsen.
16 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Describe what the
17 policy should be as to progressive discipline as you
18 have mentioned before.
19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: There is no -- Alderman, I
20 can stop you there. There is necessarily no such
21 thing. That's something that the committee can take
22 under their purview. There is no -- Mr. Schrimpf, if
23 you want to ad-lib on me, --
24 MR. SCHRIMPF: No, you're correct.
25 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: All right. You're
00017
1 quoting him accurately. I mean we're not going to get
2 beat up by him later. Okay.
3 MR. SCHRIMPF: There is no particular --
4 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Well, I would second
5 Alderman Davis' motion, but I think it should be
6 longer. I think it should be a 30-day, because this
7 is quite amazing, these four serious incidences, and
8 you just said that the bartender was released just
9 recently. The same bartender was on the premise late
10 last fall, and you didn't get rid of him then, so I
11 don't think you've been completely straight with this
12 committee, because you should have gotten rid of him
13 last fall, not just in April.
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'll allow you to answer
15 that, Mr. Landry. Go ahead.
16 MR. LANDRY: Well, if you want me to explain
17 that, the best way I can explain it to you, when he
18 had the gun, the -- he had to do time, and the jury
19 let him go out under the Huber Law where he could
20 still work and pay his child support, because he was
21 paying his child support on a payroll basis, and I
22 thought if the judge thought he was decent enough to
23 go out and still work, that I would let him work up
24 until that time, up until he had finished doing his
25 time, which was last week.
00018
1 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Mr. Chair?
2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Henningsen.
3 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Doing his time meaning
4 probation?
5 MR. LANDRY: Yeah, working under the Huber
6 Law.
7 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Right. So in
8 September, when he was found to have --
9 MR. LANDRY: A firearm.
10 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: -- to be carrying a
11 gun, --
12 MR. LANDRY: Yeah.
13 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Why wasn't he revoked?
14 MR. LANDRY: I don't know.
15 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Okay. Well, you then
16 knew that he was carrying a handgun on his person.
17 MR. LANDRY: No, I did not know that. I
18 didn't know it until then.
19 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Till then.
20 MR. LANDRY: No, I did not.
21 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: So why didn't you
22 dismiss him at that time? He was charged with felony
23 possession of a firearm, and even Johnny Cochran says
24 you ought to do time.
25 MR. LANDRY: I tried to explain that to you
00019
1 just now.
2 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: What?
3 MR. LANDRY: I said that I did not dismiss
4 him then because when he went to court, they gave
5 him -- I think it was 60 days under the Huber Law,
6 which in turn he had to pay his child support. That
7 was the jury that decided that. And for him to pay
8 his child support, well, he had to still work.
9 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Well, I know that,
10 sir, but he's also affecting your license, and I think
11 first things first. We're here to deal with your
12 license and not his financial position. But I would
13 hope that maybe Alderman Davis would take, as a
14 friendly amendment, a motion to suspend for 30 days,
15 and then we'll hopefully work for some improvement in
16 the next year.
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Alderman Davis, the
18 court is yours here at this point.
19 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chair, I'm going to
20 accept Alderman Henningsen's recommendation or his
21 amendment. You know, these are serious charges,
22 and I was hoping that Mr. Landry would give me the
23 information that he was previously terminated. But to
24 tell me that today would be his last day with these
25 egregious offenses, I want to give you a little bit of
00020
1 time to work on it. And also I'm more interested in
2 making sure that the people who patronize your
3 business are safe, also, so I will accept that as a
4 friendly amendment.
5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. The motion we have
6 before us is for renewal of the Class B Tavern
7 application with a 30-day suspension.
8 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's the Tavern and Tavern
9 Dance, Mr. Chairman?
10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Do they have a Tavern and
11 Tavern Dance?
12 MR. SCHRIMPF: For the Blue Gardenia they do.
13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: That would be correct. That
14 would be a 30-day suspension for the Tavern and Tavern
15 Dance. Are there any comments on that? Are there any
16 objections to it? Hearing none, so ordered.
17 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Landry, the committee is
18 going to be doing Findings of Facts and Conclusions of
19 Law recommending to the full Common Council that your
20 Class B Tavern and Tavern Dance License for the
21 premises at 408 East North Avenue, the Blue Gardenia,
22 be renewed with a 30-day suspension. You'll receive a
23 copy of that recommendation.
24 You'll have an opportunity to submit written
25 objections to that recommendation, and you'll have an
00021
1 opportunity to appear before the full Common Council
2 when it meets at approximately 9 a.m. --
3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: On June 3rd.
4 MR. SCHRIMPF: -- on June 3rd, 2003, to take
5 this matter up, and you'll have an opportunity to
6 argue your cause at that time. Okay?
7 MR. LANDRY: Okay.
8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mr. Landry.
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2 STATE OF WISCONSIN)
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3 MILWAUKEE COUNTY )
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6 I, DONNA GULCZYNSKI, of Milwaukee Reporters
7 Associated, Inc., 5120 West Bluemound Road, Milwaukee,
8 Wisconsin, certify that the foregoing transcript,
9 consisting of pages 2 through 21 inclusive, is a
10 full and complete transcript of the proceedings taken
11 in this cause.
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17 Donna Gulczynski - Court Reporter
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22 Dated this day of , 2003
23 Milwaukee, Wisconsin