00001 1 2 CITY OF MILWAUKEE 3 LICENSES COMMITTEE 4 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 5 In the Matter of the Class "B" Tavern and Tavern 6 Amusement (Cabaret/Nite Club) renewal applications for: 7 ERETTA A. HONEY STARGAZERS, LLC 8 7158 W. Fond du Lac Avenue 9 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS 11 ALD. JAMES WITKOWIAK - Chair ALD. JAMES BOHL, JR., - Vice-Chairman 12 ALD. MICHAEL MCGEE, JR. ALD. ROBERT PUENTE 13 ALD. WILLIE WADE 14 LICENSING DIVISION by REBECCA BARRON NEIGHBORHOOD SERVICES by PANDORA BENDER 15 HEALTH DEPARTMENT by PAUL ZEMKE POLICE DEPARTMENT by SEARGENT CHET ULICKEY 16 OFFICE OF THE CITY ATTORNEY by ATTORNEY BRUCE SCHRIMPF 17 18 Proceedings had and testimony given in 19 the above-entitled matter, before the LICENSES 20 COMMITTEE OF THE CITY OF MILWAUKEE, on 21 the 15th day of May, 2007. 22 23 * * * * * 00002 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: In the 2nd 3 District, Eretta A. Honey, Agent for "Stargazers, 4 LLC", Class "B" Tavern and Tavern Amusement 5 (Cabaret/Nite Club) renewal applications for 6 "Stargazers" at 7158 West Fond du Lac Avenue. 7 MR. MAISTELMAN: Good afternoon, Mr. 8 Chairman. 9 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: State your 10 appearance, please. 11 MR. MAISTELMAN: Mike Maistelman, 12 making a special appearance on behalf of Eretta 13 Honey, "Stargazers, LLC." Ms. Honey appears in 14 person. 15 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Could you raise 16 your right hand, please? We'll swear you in. 17 Alderman Davis, also. 18 You were sworn in this morning? Okay. 19 You're fine. 20 (Whereupon the witnesses and applicant 21 were sworn.) 22 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Name and address 23 for the record, please, Ms. Honey. Name and 24 address for the record. 25 THE APPLICANT: Eretta Honey. I'm in 00003 1 the process of moving, but right now it's W158 2 N10332 Mauve Drive in Germantown, Wisconsin. 3 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Thank you. Let 4 the record show Alderman Davis appears in this 5 matter, also. Attorney Maistelman, proceed. 6 MR. MAISTELMAN: Thank you, Mr. 7 Chairman. A couple procedural matters. I 8 received this letter - - That's why I'm make - - 9 making a special appearance, and I'll try to make 10 it brief. I received this letter from a 11 licensing clerk regarding this matter. I was not 12 at the time representing Stargazers, LLC or Ms. 13 Honey. That was the guy that looks like me, Andy 14 Arena. He is unable to be here today. Ms. Elmer 15 tried to reach him. I spoke with him last night. 16 He could not be here. He tried to reach Ms. 17 Honey yesterday, and they spoke, and she had 18 never received the notice, because she moved. 19 She received it today. Okay. So procedurally, 20 that's where we are on the notice issue. 21 As far as going forward today, I - - I 22 have some strong, you know, I - - I can be joking 23 around at times, but when it comes to issues of 24 - - of fairness, due process and equal 25 protection, I'm going to be a bulldog. And I - - 00004 1 I think it's wrong that we're back here today to 2 re-litigate a matter that was already approved by 3 this - - by this committee and - - and now what 4 has happened is that this applicant, who when she 5 left the last hearing with Mr. Arena, left with 6 no warning letter, with nothing, thinking that 7 she was going to have her license renewed, 8 because it expired on the 29th. Correct? Of 9 this month. 10 As of now her license is going to 11 expire, because the Common Council, I believe, 12 meets on the 30th of this month. So we're 13 already in a quagmire there. And, you know, it's 14 my understanding that Mr. Arena, unless we can 15 make - - make this right is going to - - might 16 have to go court to try to fix this. I know that 17 Mr. Schrimpf has advised, I believe, and, Bruce, 18 you can correct me if I'm wrong, but advised that 19 there was a problem if you sent it back to 20 committee, procedurally, due process, and - - and 21 then fairness. Because she's going to lose her 22 license. And even if it's for one minute, she 23 has a right - - It - - It - - And she was never 24 put on notice once that she could lose it. When 25 she left here, she was told, without any - - any 00005 1 warning letters, that it was - - it was going to 2 go through. 3 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman, I - - I 4 feel compelled to correct counsel on one small 5 matter. The committee recommended approval of 6 this license with a warning letter the last time 7 around. And that was kind of the issue that 8 brought it to the Council, so. 9 MR. MAISTELMAN: I apologize. 10 MR. SCHRIMPF: With that correction. 11 MR. MAISTELMAN: And I - - As I - - You 12 know, I was not representing the applicant at 13 that time. And, in fact, I just am starting to 14 learn the facts late last night. I think this 15 committee has a - - a standard of fairness and 16 procedure that it uses. And I recall another 17 matter that kept bouncing back and forth, another 18 matter that I handled, where it was passed by 19 this committee. It went to the Common Council. 20 The alderman wasn't happy. Sent it back to the 21 committee. We had another hearing. We went back 22 to the Common Council. Sent it back to the 23 hearing again. And at that time, I objected to 24 any further testimony. How many bites of the 25 apple do these neighbors and the people have to 00006 1 - - to object. They get one. That's the 2 fairness, this process that we have. And it's a 3 process that we must follow. And - - And at your 4 discretion last time, I believe, the Chair and 5 this committee forbade any further testimony. 6 Everybody had a right to testify at the last 7 hearing to talk about the issues. 8 Now, the issue that I think that we're 9 here about is these alleged shots that happened, 10 and that were raised at the last hearing. They 11 were raised, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I 12 believe Alderman Puente even inquired about the - 13 - the ballistics. Am I correct, Alderman Puente? 14 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Well, at the Common 15 Council I had asked whether or not the spent 16 shells matched the bullet that was recovered. 17 MR. MAISTELMAN: Right. 18 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Out of the house. 19 MR. MAISTELMAN: And - - And so it's my 20 understanding, and the record will reflect if I'm 21 22 - - if I'm wrong, but that these issues about 23 these alleged gunshots, shells that were outside 24 the area, were raised. It was - - You had the 25 knowledge before you at the last committee 00007 1 meeting when you made your decision. So here we 2 are again with nothing new. We don't even have a 3 ballistic test. The police had their opportunity 4 to check to see - - 5 MR. HOVLAND: Can I speak? 6 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: No. 7 MR. MAISTELMAN: The police had their 8 opportunity to do the tests. So we're here. And 9 I'm not sure what we're here for. Because you 10 have all the information. The neighbors that 11 wanted to testify at the last meeting testified. 12 I'm going to object, with all due respect, to any 13 further testimony. And - - And really ask that 14 you uphold the standards of procedures that 15 you've used in the past. There's no new 16 information here. There - - There's nothing the 17 police have reported saying that - - that says 18 that these shells were traced to - - to the 19 alleged bullets that were fired. There's 20 nothing. The only thing that is going wrong here 21 is that somebody's due process and equal 22 protection rights are being violated. I don't 23 care if it's - - if it's a minute. I think it's 24 four hours, technically, her license - - two 25 hours. Alderman Puente, correct me, as usual. 00008 1 But - - But that's wrong. And you have a 2 process, and you have a procedure, and you must 3 follow it. 4 You know, you had the knowledge last 5 time. There's nothing new here. And so I would 6 ask that you reaffirm your decision and send it 7 to the Common Council. Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Alderman Davis. 9 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Thank you, Mr. Chair, 10 and committee members. I'd like to correct 11 counsel, because there is new information. Prior 12 to this information coming before the committee 13 there was no police report. And I think that's 14 the reason why the warning letter was issued. 15 Now, there is a police report regarding this 16 particular issue, which the - - the neighbors 17 here can test - - can testify on. 18 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. 19 ALDERMAN DAVIS: The unfortunate 20 incident is, is that if Ms. Honey and her staff 21 would not have lied to the committee to deny that 22 anything occurred at her establishment, maybe we 23 wouldn't be here. But because of conflicting 24 testimony between the neighbors and her staff, 25 and even her herself denying that anything 00009 1 happened on her property on that specific date, 2 is the reason why I think that Council members 3 decided to send it back. You tell the young man 4 - - You tell the - - the resident who lives right 5 across the street who got a bullet hole through 6 his son's room, that knocked the car off of his 7 son's desk and found that bullet casing in his 8 home, and you tell me that with the police 9 report, with an officer of the law on - - in her 10 professional opinion stated it came from the 11 direction of Stargazers, and the compelling issue 12 is that this has been a thorn in my side since 13 the - - since this particular business has been 14 open. And I've been very tolerant of this 15 particular applicant. 16 I had a young man die in the hallway of 17 this particular establishment, and she still to 18 this day does not want to take full 19 responsibility. Says, "Oh, no, no, no. It's not 20 my - - It's not my responsibility. It's the 21 patrons." No, it's not the patrons. It's your 22 responsibility as the owners. So, Mr. Chairman, 23 I would - - I would hope that the committee would 24 take additional testimony on the particular shots 25 that were fired that night, and you will hear 00010 1 from neighbors in that area, as far as the 2 gunshots that have come from her establishment 3 that she specifically lied to tell you that on 4 that particular night nothing did not occur. And 5 there is a police report that I asked 7th 6 District to prepare, and it is here right now, 7 and I'm hoping that Sergeant Ulickey can read it 8 into the report. Thank you. 9 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: I'd like to hear 10 from some of my colleagues. 11 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Mr. Chair. 12 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Alderman Puente. 13 ALDERMAN PUENTE: If you do hear 14 testimony, the testimony, I would say, has to be 15 not from gunfire coming from that establishment 16 throughout the year or months or whatever, but 17 what this notice of hearing is, and that is 18 regarding the incident on 4/16/04. 19 Any bullet hole that goes through any 20 house is very, very traumatic. It's, you know, 21 I'll do anything to shut down anyplace that 22 causes something like that to happen. But on the 23 same point, we are obligated to make sure that 24 wherever the bullet came from, that's where it 25 came from. And from the last testimony, we 00011 1 didn't get that. And even in this police report, 2 you can't tell me, unless there's new - - 3 something new from the Sergeant, that's going to 4 tell me that that bullet came from either one of 5 those two casings that was found in that parking 6 lot. And you had two different types of casings. 7 If you can tell me that that bullet came from one 8 of those two, or possible, give me just even a 9 possibility, and I - - I'd be inclined to do 10 something about it. But at this point, I don't 11 think we have enough evidence to support that 12 that bullet came from that parking lot, given 13 what we have so far. 14 MR. MAISTELMAN: And unless the 15 neighbor's a ballistic expert, I mean, the police 16 aren't able to prove that. On top of it, we know 17 that some of our opposition owns a bar - - 18 ALDERMAN WADE: Whoa, whoa, Mr. Chair. 19 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Alderman Wade. 20 ALDERMAN WADE: I think you gave the 21 directive that people should ask you for 22 permission to speak. 23 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Yes. 24 ALDERMAN WADE: Instead of just 25 speaking all out like that. I mean, I - - I 00012 1 wanted the floor. I was going to ask - - go 2 through the procedure to get the floor, but if I 3 need to just butt in, I can just butt in that 4 way, too. I mean, we are running a professional 5 hearing, and we need to respect that. 6 MR. MAISTELMAN: I apologize, Mr. 7 Chair. 8 ALDERMAN MCGEE: Mr. Chair. 9 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Alderman McGee. 10 ALDERMAN MCGEE: Yes. It's to me this 11 application is new before myself, and on the 12 history of it is already stated with - - and the 13 findings of fact. But it's noticed for more than 14 just a shooting, and that's what I was talking to 15 my colleague about, is that it does say 16 management of the location, gunshots and 17 shootings, loud music and noise, loitering and 18 littering and the - - the neighbors have 19 objections in reference on that in that 20 framework, then I think we need to hear those if 21 there is some new revelations that were not 22 testified to the last hearing. 23 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Thank you. I want 24 to ask our Assistant City Attorney at this time, 25 are - - are there any - - 00013 1 MR. SCHRIMPF: I was fearful of that, 2 Mr. Chairman. 3 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Are there any 4 issues with this notice thing, when - - when she 5 received it and going to the wrong place? You've 6 heard that? 7 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, it's - - I was 8 just thinking about that, Mr. Chairman. 9 Apparently she indicated that she had moved and 10 had not advised the License Division of that. 11 Remember the little speech I gave earlier today 12 on that point. And this is a perfect example of 13 it. I just litigated a case, for the benefit of 14 counsel, that dealt in part with the issue of, 15 "Well, I didn't get the notice," and the Court of 16 Appeals agreed with the City's position that if 17 you don't get the notice, and you moved, and you 18 didn't bother to notify the License Division, too 19 bad, so sad. 20 So I don't think - - I don't think her 21 failure to get the notice really is an issue, 22 given those facts. The notice is broad enough to 23 include other testimony. I think that's going to 24 be reposed quite frankly to the discretion of the 25 Chair and the committee members. I agree 00014 1 completely with Alderman Puente in that if you 2 take additional testimony, it should really be 3 confined to this incident where the gunfire 4 occurred. And finally, I guess that answers all 5 of your questions, Mr. Chairman. 6 ALDERMAN WADE: Mr. Chair. 7 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Alderman Wade. 8 ALDERMAN WADE: Yeah, I - - You know, 9 I'm - - I'm seriously disturbed about a bullet 10 hole going through somebody's wall. I mean, 11 that's a huge problem. But I need some concrete 12 evidence that the bullet came from this 13 establishment. I haven't seen any evidence, I 14 mean, even - - even at Council they said they 15 found two different type of shells. So 16 obviously, you know, if one of the shells didn't 17 come from - - I mean, it's - - it's just 18 confusion on exactly what happened. If I had 19 evidence right now that said that the bullet hole 20 that was in the wall came from either one of 21 those casings, I would be the first one to say, 22 you know what? You came in here. You told us a 23 boldfaced lie, and the evidence say this, that 24 and the other, and regardless, so now I don't 25 want to hear from you because you came and you, 00015 1 under oath, lied to us. That hasn't been 2 established at this point. 3 I had a huge problem with this at 4 Council based on, and I talked to the Assistant 5 City Attorney, based on the process of it. You 6 know, I stated then, we had - - we got - - we 7 have a huge processing issue here. And it's hard 8 for us to be consistent and deal with the next 9 person that comes in front of us if we don't have 10 consistency, and if nothing else, at least the 11 process. And that's - - that's what my concern 12 is, the processing issue, and if we can have some 13 evidence that the bullet came from - - from that 14 establishment, you know, I'm - - I'm ready to 15 make the motion. But if that's not the case, if 16 that evidence is not before us, then as far as 17 I'm concerned, I already seen this video. 18 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Thank you. I - - 19 I want to ask Miss - - Ms. Honey at this - - I 20 don't know. Did I ask you if you - - you admit 21 to receiving notice that there's a possibility 22 your license could be denied? 23 THE APPLICANT: I'm sorry. I didn't 24 understand. 25 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Do you - - Do you 00016 1 admit to receiving notice that your - - your 2 license could be denied? 3 THE APPLICANT: I have - - Yes, sir - - 4 Yes, sir. I got it this morning. 5 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. Because - - 6 Because of the attached police report and the 7 neighborhood objections? 8 THE APPLICANT: Yes, sir. 9 MS. BARRON: Mr. Chair. 10 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Ms. Barron. 11 MS. BARRON: Is it possible to get her 12 new address for any further communication? 13 THE APPLICANT: Oh, I'm going back to 14 the old one, but would you - - I'm going back to 15 the one that you have. 16 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: It was a short 17 move. Neighborhood Services, anything? 18 DNS: No objections. 19 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Health Department? 20 HEALTH: No objections. 21 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: You're excused. 22 Thank you for your services. Alderman Davis. 23 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 24 We know - - Committee members bring up a very 25 valid point, but, you know, under oath there was 00017 1 testimony that nothing ever occurred at this 2 particular location. And the rea - - We have a 3 document that says something occurred at that 4 particular location, and now neighbors are able 5 to come here and testify what occurred. Her 6 bodyguards testified nothing happened that night 7 at that location. She testified nothing happened 8 at that location. But you got neighbors who are 9 willing to come forward to say that they saw 10 detectives and squad cars on site at Stargazers 11 the night that the shooting occurred. 12 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Thank you. Mr. 13 Maistelman. 14 MR. MAISTELMAN: Mr. Chairman, first of 15 all, telling the committee that they weren't 16 aware of anything is - - is not saying that they 17 - - they didn't - - there wasn't anything. 18 That's the first thing. Second of all, it's my 19 understanding, and I wasn't here, but that one of 20 the neighbors did testify and she referenced the 21 police report. Is that - - That - - That's what 22 I was told. So the body, your - - this committee 23 was aware of it. The neighbors were aware of it. 24 There was a police report at the time. I - - I - 25 - I mean, if this was a court of law, a judge 00018 1 would say, and you can ask your attorney, but, 2 okay, so there were gunshots. The police had an 3 obligation to try to match them up. There hasn't 4 been anything. So we're just guessing. And I 5 would be the first one. If - - If - - If these 6 were bullet casings, and they could be tied to 7 some - - to this bar, with all due respect, 8 ma'am, and I knew that, I wouldn't be here 9 representing it. But - - But I haven't seen the 10 police report that says that. 11 ALDERMAN WADE: Mr. Chair. 12 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Alderman Wade. 13 ALDERMAN WADE: I just want to make 14 sure that this part is crystal clear. The motion 15 that we made with the warning letter was 16 disregarding the information about this, about 17 - - We - - We actually knew this was here. We 18 disregarded it because of the lack of substantial 19 evidence. And we considered it with a warning 20 letter. 21 MR. SCHRIMPF: You - - You renewed it 22 with a warning letter, not including the incident 23 involving the shooting. 24 ALDERMAN WADE: The shooting. Okay. 25 MR. SCHRIMPF: And the purpose of that 00019 1 was to preserve it for next year or if there were 2 further information that linked it up so that 3 somebody, either the local alderman or the police 4 department would be in the position to be able to 5 file a complaint seeking revocation. I think I 6 said that over and over and over again at the 7 Common Council meeting, to little avail. 8 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: I just - - I want 9 to ask Sergeant Ulickey, if I could, reading that 10 - - reading that police report can you connect 11 those shell casings to the bullet that went 12 through the house? 13 SERGEANT ULICKEY: Based on the report 14 that you have in front of you, no, I cannot. 15 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Thank you. All 16 right. What's the will of the committee? Does 17 anybody - - Does anybody wish to go forward and 18 hear - - and - - and hear more evidence? 19 ALDERMAN MCGEE: Mr. Chair, as the - - 20 as the rookie on the committee I could move to 21 take further testimony from the constituents who 22 came relative to the items that are mentioned in 23 the - - the applicant's renewal. 24 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. But now, 25 but we heard that at the previous meeting. 00020 1 ALDERMAN BOHL: Mr. Chairman. 2 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Alderman Bohl. 3 ALDERMAN BOHL: I - - I would support 4 and - - and certainly don't take lightly the - - 5 the situation where the vested property right 6 would - - would come into play here and there 7 would be a loss even of - - of two hours. I - - 8 I believe that - - that at - - I mean, the reason 9 that I supported the motion last time was the 10 lack of notice and just some of the questions 11 about what was - - what amounts to a CAD report, 12 and which was not properly noticed. I would - - 13 I would support making that report part of our 14 record and taking testimony specific only to that 15 report. I don't believe that we should open up 16 the flood gates for residents on other - - on 17 other issues, if they experienced loud noise or 18 parking problems, because ultimately, I - - I 19 think that this is something that would have been 20 - - provided them an opportunity three weeks ago, 21 and they chose not to show up. 22 So if there is anything that's going to 23 - - to be spoken to or - - or where there's going 24 to be any neighborhood objection, it should be 25 related to the - - the police report and maybe 00021 1 anything that maybe will substantiate or 2 corroborate. 3 ALDERMAN MCGEE: Point of information, 4 Mr. Chair. 5 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Go ahead, Alderman 6 McGee. 7 ALDERMAN MCGEE: Well, why is the 8 notice for the other objections then for this 9 hearing? Why - - Why isn't it just the police 10 report that's the part of the notice? And 11 there's other items that apparently wouldn't be 12 brought up at a hearing if you have noise, 13 fights, disorderly patrons, why is that 14 information listed on the committee meeting 15 notice? 16 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: We can take that 17 into consideration from what was heard at the 18 last - - at the last hearing - - 19 ALDERMAN MCGEE: Okay. 20 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: - - part of the 21 last hearing. And you're - - you're at somewhat 22 of a disadvantage because you weren't at the last 23 hearing. So that - - I - - And I don't want to, 24 you know - - 25 ALDERMAN BOHL: Because, Mr. Chairman, 00022 1 if I may - - if I may speak? 2 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Alderman Bohl. 3 ALDERMAN BOHL: Okay. Thank you. 4 We've - - We've had past occasions where you have 5 one or two neighbors that show up and, you know, 6 you really get to a point where an alderman would 7 ask for an item to go back or to be held just so 8 you get another opportunity to get more residents 9 there, and sort of another kick at the cat. And 10 - - And at what point is there a level of 11 fairness even for - - for the applicant in terms 12 of - - of reasonable due process, as well, too. 13 There used to be a case where we would hear from 14 residents because you'd get an applicant who 15 would come in and say, "Well, I'm not ready." 16 Okay. We have it adjourned, and all of a sudden, 17 you'd have neighbors that would wait for several 18 hours and, you know, with - - with the belief 19 that they took the afternoon off and then if - - 20 if you just utterly dismissed it without taking 21 their testimony, they go home and three weeks 22 later they may not be able or willing to show up. 23 And so, it was an issue of fairness. 24 I think that there was evidence that 25 came very late, and it clearly did not make its 00023 1 way into the police report, because it happened 2 just a short time before our hearing, but it was 3 evidence that was known. And - - And that is - - 4 That's why I'd be willing to bend and hear items 5 related to that now that we do have that on the 6 notice. 7 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chairman. 8 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Alderman Davis. 9 ALDERMAN DAVIS: You know, I wouldn't 10 be here if - - if, in fact, the police report was 11 actually submitted to the committee. But after 12 the committee took its recommendation and one of 13 the neighbors testified that they tried to get 14 the police report, but they couldn't get the 15 police report. That's the reason why I think 16 that the committee didn't take it into 17 consideration is because the police report was 18 not produced at that time. And her testimony was 19 is that she tried to get the police report, not 20 that she had a police report. She testified on 21 the incident that was here. And this committee 22 did not take that into consideration. 23 After being contacted, I contacted the 24 Milwaukee Police Department and asked for the 25 police report, and got the police report. And 00024 1 that's the reason why I'm asking the committee to 2 reconsider and hear testimony on this specific 3 issue. Because there are residents who can 4 testify on the incident on April 16th. 5 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: At this time 6 Alderman Bohl moves to make the police incident 7 report number 071060064 dated 4/16 of '07 part of 8 the permanent record in this hearing, and hearing 9 no objections, so ordered. And I believe what we 10 should do is, if we want to hear testimony 11 relative to that incident report that was not 12 available for us at the last hearing, that's 13 fine. As far as the neighborhood objections of 14 loitering, littering, loud music, noise, fights 15 and everything, that was part of the previous 16 hearing we heard testimony on that. I - - I 17 don't wish to hear any further testimony on that. 18 Is that - - Are - - Is our committee pretty much 19 okay with that? 20 ALDERMAN WADE: I - - I agree with you. 21 I'm not - - I'm not interested in hearing any 22 more testimony about that either. 23 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. 24 SERGEANT ULICKEY: Mr. Chair. 25 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Yes. Sergeant 00025 1 Ulickey. 2 SERGEANT ULICKEY: At this time since 3 this report number was introduced. 4 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Yes. 5 SERGEANT ULICKEY: And made a part. I 6 feel compelled to explain, number one, a 7 procedure, number two, some additional 8 information on a supplementary report that was 9 filed under that report number that is noticed 10 and now introduced. 11 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. 12 SERGEANT ULICKEY: Mr. Maistelman made 13 - - or a comment regarding the police 14 department's - - with the responsibility to send 15 this bullet out to be tested. I can explain to 16 this committee that we, in fact, do that. 17 However, while this is a grave offense, the - - 18 the testing of that bullet to the casing is a 19 lower priority than a lot of the work that we 20 send to the crime lab. So while it will be done, 21 I couldn't guarantee when it's going to be done 22 - - be done, and if it's going to be done any 23 time soon. I would further add that I do have 24 another supplementary report written by a 25 detective that was at the scene that night, along 00026 1 with the report that you have in front of you. 2 And that does shed some visual observations made 3 by that detective. 4 ALDERMAN BOHL: I'm going to, at this 5 time, Sergeant Ulickey, I'm going to ask you, 6 because we have moved to make the - - the entire 7 police report part of our - - our record, I'm 8 going to ask that you would read that supplement 9 into the record. 10 SERGEANT ULICKEY: Again, this is a 11 supplement from Police Report Number 071060064. 12 It is written by a Detective Gus Petropolas, who 13 is assigned to the Milwaukee Police Department, 14 and it - - this is part of the report as it goes 15 to the scene investigation. 16 ALDERMAN BOHL: Sergeant, hold on one 17 second. I just want to make certain, is this 18 particular supplement - - I see one supplement 19 that - - by a Police Office M. Miller. Where - - 20 Where in the notice is this, because before - - 21 It will have to be part of the official notice. 22 SERGEANT ULICKEY: That - - Well, 23 that's why I mentioned before, that this is part 24 of a - - part of the police number, the report 25 number that was noticed. This report you do not 00027 1 have in front of you. 2 VICE-CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. If - - 3 What I'm going to - - What I'm going to - - I'm 4 going to - - I will actually - - going to deny 5 you doing that. 6 MR. MAISTELMAN: Thank you. 7 VICE-CHAIRMAN BOHL: Because 8 ultimately, we're going to run again into the 9 issue of the applicant not being noticed. She 10 was noticed on the report this time. It was 11 cited here in - - in - - in the police objection. 12 There is a supplement in that, but the additional 13 supplement is lacking in the notice and, Mr. 14 Schrimpf, you 15 - - you would assume it's wise for us not to read 16 that into the record? 17 MR. SCHRIMPF: I think it's wise 18 whatever the Chairman wants to do. You're in an 19 area where this requires the exercise of 20 discretion, and that's what you're doing, and so 21 long as you're exercising that discretion 22 appropriately, I won't mess with it. 23 VICE-CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sergeant Ulickey? 24 Mr. Maistelman? 25 MR. MAISTELMAN: I'd like my objection 00028 1 to go on the record. I mean, we have no 2 knowledge of any supplemental report for today. 3 All we have is the one that was in the notice 4 that was supposedly sent to Attorney Arena but 5 went to me. So, I mean, we can't respond. We're 6 not prepared. We have no - - I - - I think that 7 that would be infringing upon our rights and due 8 process to have us have to respond to a report 9 that's not been provided to us, or it appears, to 10 the members. 11 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chairman. 12 VICE-CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Davis. 13 ALDERMAN DAVIS: I would hope that the 14 committee may take - - or think about that this 15 detective supplement may point that on location, 16 law enforcement was on the property of 17 Stargazers, which will bring a lot more light. 18 As I had mentioned before time and time again, 19 the testimony under oath of not only Mrs. Honey, 20 but her staff, gave about no incident that 21 occurred on that particular night on her 22 establishment. And I think that is the issue 23 currently right now that is - - that I'm 24 concerned about. Is because this is a bar owner 25 that is in the district that which I represent, 00029 1 that disrespects the Common Council of the City 2 of Milwaukee and figures, under oath, they can 3 come here and lie to us. And I take that very 4 serious. And I would hope, Mr. Chair, that your 5 discretion, as far as your ruling is concerned, 6 would allow the police department, because it is 7 part of the whole report, to read it into the 8 record under your discretion. 9 VICE-CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman, my - - 10 You know, and I supported this coming back here. 11 The - - the problem is - - is even a police 12 report must be sent to the - - the applicant, and 13 must be duly noticed for the item. I mean, there 14 is a police report that is actually reiterated or 15 regurgitated by the Sergeant here, and that - - 16 that very same report is sent to the applicant. 17 If there are additional supplements to that, we 18 are actually not allowing - - allowing her or her 19 attorney to prepare for the entirety of that 20 report and, you know, the issue is is if this is 21 an ongoing investigation, you know, my - - my 22 whole suggestion would be literally for us to 23 exclude this item, move approval, and - - and, 24 Alderman Davis, you know, I certainly support 25 every effort that you have. Even within the next 00030 1 cycle you have the ability in the next three 2 weeks to try to start right now preparing a - - a 3 measure for allowing for a - - a revocation that 4 would include and in the notice, all items 5 including the additional supplement. 6 But I just - - I - - I have real 7 reservations moving forward with an additional 8 supplement that was not noticed to the applicant 9 or her attorney. I think that that really puts 10 us in a real bind. I think that we can bring in 11 the report that she was actually sent, that she 12 was physically sent in the notice, but to go 13 above and beyond that as part of an ongoing is - 14 - is truly problematic. 15 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chairman. 16 VICE-CHAIRMAN BOHL: That one's going 17 to be this Chairman here. 18 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Go ahead, and I 19 was listening to this in the hallway. 20 ALDERMAN DAVIS: You know, it is not my 21 wish to revocate the license entirely. You know, 22 I - - I think the issue here is that the warning 23 letter was not strong enough, given this issue 24 that occurred at her establishment. Just as I 25 - - As I'm going to be consistent in what I 00031 1 requested at Council, I'm going to request that 2 hopefully the committee will take into 3 consideration, and that is the denial of the 4 cabaret license and move forward with the - - the 5 - - the license. That's what - - You know, and 6 that's the reason why I'm here today, because 7 there are information that hopefully the 8 committee will take into consideration. 9 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Mr. Maistelman? 10 MR. MAISTELMAN: There are rules of 11 fundamental fairness that we have to - - this 12 committee has to follow. And I - - And I - - I 13 totally disagree that they can now allow other 14 reports in to - - to - - to for this report, one 15 position or another, when as the party, we 16 haven't been noticed of that. If any of you were 17 on this side of the table and this was happening 18 to you in this situation or under any situation, 19 I think you would feel the same predicament that 20 my client is in right now. You have every right, 21 if the ballistics, after they're sent to Guanigo 22 or wherever they go, come back and show and ties 23 it in, then you got something conclusive. Then 24 you can act on it. You can. But if we don't 25 have anything, and unless these are ballistic 00032 1 experts or handwrite - - handgun experts that can 2 come here and testify the trajection, you know, 3 how it was shot, and this and that, the reason 4 that my client stated that they weren't aware of 5 any shootings on her property is because they 6 don't believe any shootings did occur on the 7 property. And there's no proof in the police 8 report that there was. The simplest, and I think 9 Alderman Bohl hit this right on the head, if 10 something comes up in the next three weeks that 11 ties it in, there's your proof, the proof is in 12 the pudding. But you have to go with what the 13 facts are, and what the law is, and what the - - 14 what the reports that have been properly noticed 15 are. That's what we have here. And it's not 16 fair, and it's not right to allow information in 17 and to try to back-door this. 18 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: I agree that we 19 cannot add anything to this - - this incident 20 report that is noticed. I - - I agree with that. 21 So, I believe - - I believe that we don't have 22 - - I'm thinking that we don't have enough 23 evidence to rule adversely at this point, that's 24 what I'm thinking. 25 MR. HOVLAND: Mr. Foreman, can I say a 00033 1 word off the record, please? 2 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: No. 3 MR. SCHRIMPF: No, not off the record. 4 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: There's no such 5 thing as off the record. 6 MR. HOVLAND: Then on the record. 7 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: I - - I'm sorry. 8 I'm sorry. We can't - - Let - - Let us get past 9 our deliberations here. 10 MR. HOVLAND: Before you close, sir. 11 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Hovland - - Mr. 12 Hovland, just - - just hold on for a second. 13 Just hold on for a second. 14 MR. HOVLAND: It's hard to take. Yes. 15 ALDERMAN DAVIS: I understand. I 16 understand, sir. Just hold on, please. 17 MR. HOVLAND: It's very, very hard. 18 I'm going to use the washroom. 19 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman, if - - if 20 I just may. 21 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Go ahead. 22 MR. SCHRIMPF: What I'm trying to get 23 across to the committee is that I think Alderman 24 Davis is on to something that may be potentially 25 very serious. There was a lady here who produced 00034 1 a model car that was in her son's bedroom that 2 had a door blown off of it, presumably by a 3 bullet. That is certainly a concern to anyone. 4 But the police department is conducting an 5 investigation. And that investigation is 6 ongoing. And ballistics reports and how to match 7 this stuff up is a - - is a process that just 8 can't be rushed by the happenstance of when a 9 particular license is expiring. You've got to do 10 the investigation in a methodical, standardized 11 precise kind of way in order to have any 12 information that's worthy of any kind of belief 13 and introduction into a legal proceeding. That's 14 what this is. 15 And what I was trying to explain to the 16 Council when we were here on this last time 17 around is that there may be information as this 18 process is ongoing, there may be more information 19 that comes up. And I know that a complaint 20 seeking revocation is not easy, and I know that a 21 complaint to accomplish revocation is a lot of 22 work and will use committee time, but that is the 23 only way that is set forth in the Statutes to 24 deal with this particular problem. Enough said. 25 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Thank you. Maybe 00035 1 it would be - - Is it my understanding that - - 2 that ballistics is attempting to - - to see if 3 there's a match? Is that - - Is that an ongoing 4 investigation? 5 SERGEANT ULICKEY: Yes. The only thing 6 I can tell you, Mr. Chairman, is that these are 7 routinely sent out to the crime lab at Guanigo 8 for testing, but given the - - the workload for 9 the police department and the - - And I don't 10 want to diminish the importance of this, but it's 11 put on a lower priority for this case. Nobody 12 was injured, luckily. 13 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: But it is in 14 process. 15 SERGEANT ULICKEY: Yes. 16 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Why - - Why don't 17 - - Why don't we rule on this and exclude this 18 item, and then we can use it at some point in the 19 future when we have more meat on the plate. If 20 that's - - 21 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Mr. Chair. 22 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: - - what I would 23 suggest. Alderman Puente? 24 ALDERMAN PUENTE: I have a question for 25 the Sergeant. 00036 1 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Go ahead. 2 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Two questions. One, 3 do you know approximately how long it will take 4 to get that ballistics back, approximately? 5 SERGEANT ULICKEY: I wouldn't have a 6 clue. 7 ALDERMAN PUENTE: That's not good. 8 Okay. And then is there any way, because all I'm 9 looking is beyond a reasonable doubt with some of 10 this stuff here. That's all I'm asking, a little 11 probable cause. But it - - The casings that were 12 found on the parking lot were that of a nine 13 millimeter and a 40 caliber. Do you know if they 14 can even tell us if it came from a nine 15 millimeter or a 40 caliber, and not so much a 16 particular gun versus a 38 or a 308? 17 SERGEANT ULICKEY: I don't believe 18 there's an investigation to that effect at this 19 time. 20 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Okay. But - - 21 SERGEANT ULICKEY: Based on what I've 22 read. 23 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Well, can - - Can 24 somebody tell us whether or not the bullet that 25 was taken out of the house came from a certain 00037 1 caliber or weapon? 2 SERGEANT ULICKEY: Again, I would have 3 to say that based on what I've read in the 4 report, the answer would be no. There's no 5 indication in the report anywhere that the 6 detective or the police officer on the scene 7 said, well, it looks like a 40 caliber, or it 8 looks like a 45, or it looks like a 22. There is 9 no indication in the report at this time. 10 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Do you know what the 11 history of the police department that somebody 12 could - - that's on the police department rather 13 than sending it to the State crime lab to say, 14 yes, this bullet came from a particular caliber 15 of weapon? 16 SERGEANT ULICKEY: I'm not aware of 17 anybody that can say that with any degree of 18 certainty. It can be something based on your 19 experience, but I don't believe that has been 20 done in this case. 21 ALDERMAN PUENTE: I understand that 22 much. I was just wondering if we could get the 23 information without going to the State crime lab, 24 but it doesn't sound like it. 25 SERGEANT ULICKEY: I - - I don't 00038 1 believe you could do that with any degree of 2 certainty. 3 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Okay. Thank you, Mr. 4 Chair. 5 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: But - - But even - 6 - Even if he were to match that casing with - - 7 with the - - the correct caliber of that slug, 8 that doesn't mean that that casing belonged to 9 that slug. 10 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Oh, absolutely. 11 Again, I'm just looking for - - 12 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Again, this 13 ballistics test is going to try to - - 14 ALDERMAN PUENTE: I'm just looking for 15 some, you know, like I say, beyond a reasonable 16 doubt that they - - I mean, if the bullet came 17 back and it came from a 38, then case closed. 18 That's what I'm looking for. 19 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Right. 20 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Not so much to match 21 it to this particular one, but to eliminate both 22 of these calibers. If they came back and said it 23 came, for an example, a 38, then we know it 24 didn't come from these casings. That's what I 25 was looking for. 00039 1 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. Thank you. 2 I - - It's my - - I believe what we should do is 3 rule on this and exclude that item. Because that 4 would give us the opportunity to use it at either 5 revocation, or a subsequent revocation or 6 subsequent renewal hearing at some point in the 7 future. Because I don't - - I don't feel 8 comfortable with the, even with this report and 9 reading what's in this report, making an adverse 10 decision against this applicant today. Any other 11 thoughts from anyone on the committee? 12 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Well, Mr. Chair. 13 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Alderman Puente. 14 ALDERMAN PUENTE: We - - We did talk 15 about if anyone wanted to testify, that we would 16 possibly take testimony regarding this report or 17 this particular incident. And I don't know if 18 anybody in the audience is going to be able to do 19 that or if we even want to go there anymore? 20 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Well, we're not 21 going to - - I'm - - I'm saying the direction I 22 want to go in does not even consider that 23 incident. 24 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Oh, okay. 25 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Because - - 00040 1 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Then we can hear it 2 at another time. I see. I understand. Thank 3 you. 4 ALDERMAN WADE: Mr. Chair. 5 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Alderman Wade. 6 ALDERMAN WADE: I would like to - - to 7 state that if - - if we are hearing this at 8 another time, to make sure that the additional 9 information on the police report is sent out to 10 the applicant and their representation so they 11 can - - so we can have all of the stuff that we 12 need in order to - - to debate the issue. I'm 13 thinking that if we - - if we get the information 14 that we are requesting back and it's concrete 15 from the police department, that that won't even 16 be necessary. But just in case, let's add the 17 extra stuff that you got to it to make sure that 18 everybody, including myself, have that in front 19 of them when they're asking questions or 20 listening to testimony. I don't know how we 21 would do that. Do I have to like - - I don't 22 know how that would work, to add that in, but I 23 want to make sure that that is involved, and that 24 everybody who needs to have it, have it. 25 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, Mr. Chairman, can 00041 1 I take a whack at that? 2 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Yes, Mr. Schrimpf. 3 MR. SCHRIMPF: If - - If the 4 information comes in, and there is, like for want 5 of a better word, I suppose, better or clearer 6 evidence, you don't need beyond a reasonable 7 doubt, as Alderman Puente quite bravely pointed 8 out. Simply it needs some evidence that tends to 9 support it. That, in fact, these bullets came 10 from the parking lot of Stargazers, and then 11 presumably customers of Stargazers. That would 12 be in a complaint seeking revocation of the 13 license. And so all of that information would 14 presumably be set forth and even alleged in the 15 complaint. 16 And to address one of the concerns that 17 Alderman Davis raised, the - - the process by 18 which you suspend or take away a portion of the 19 license in a revocation proceeding is exactly 20 that. You initiate a complaint seeking 21 revocation. Just because you have a complaint 22 that seeks revocation doesn't mean revocation of 23 the whole license takes place. You might wind up 24 with a suspension of part of it. You might wind 25 up with a revocation of part of it. You might 00042 1 wind up with a dismissal of the entire case. But 2 the point of the matter is, is that you initiate 3 the process by a complaint seeking revocation. 4 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. And thank 5 you for that - - that explanation. 6 SERGEANT ULICKEY: Mr. Chair. 7 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Yes, Sergeant. 8 SERGEANT ULICKEY: To answer Alderman 9 Wade. The reason you only have this one report 10 in front of you is because that's the only report 11 we had at the time it was noticed. Since then, 12 the other reports had come in. And the only 13 reason I brought them up is number one, because 14 the entire report number was noticed, and I 15 didn't want to be remiss in my duties and have 16 you come and say, well, you have those other 17 reports, why didn't you say something about them. 18 So I felt compelled to mention them to the 19 committee to let you know that I did, in fact, 20 have the reports in front of me, some additional 21 reports. 22 ALDERMAN WADE: Mr. Chair, if - - if I 23 may. 24 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Alderman Wade. 25 ALDERMAN WADE: I appreciate that, but 00043 1 I just want to make sure that it's fairly 2 distributed among everybody who needs to see it. 3 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chairman. 4 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Alderman Davis. 5 ALDERMAN DAVIS: I just want to 6 recognize Mr. Hovland. He is the one whose house 7 was actually infringed. And I know, I have a 8 very good relationship with the constituents in 9 which I represent. And please do not take his 10 hostility as being disrespectful. This is an 11 emotional time for him. And he took his time 12 out, when his wife was disrespected the last time 13 she showed up, to take a personal time to come 14 down and defend his integrity and defend his 15 honesty. That's the reason why you see him 16 emotionally drawn up into the situation. Because 17 he's been violated. His house has been shot up. 18 And he has said that time and time to me, again, 19 that he's been in this area for a long time. So 20 I want the committee to understand that it's not 21 a disrespect on Mr. Hovland's part. He is just 22 very emotional about this incident that has 23 occurred at his particular location. 24 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: And in my mind - - 25 Thank you, Alderman Davis. In my mind, I agree 00044 1 with the probability of that. However, I - - I 2 can't - - I can't - - I personally can't render a 3 decision based on that - - based on probability 4 alone. So with - - Mr. Maistelman? 5 MR. MAISTELMAN: Just one thing my 6 client wanted me to - - to - - to get on the 7 record, is that apparently nobody from the police 8 department? 9 THE APPLICANT: No one. 10 MR. MAISTELMAN: Ever spoke to any of - 11 - to her, or any of your employees, to the best 12 of your knowledge, about this incident? 13 THE APPLICANT: Well, definitely not 14 me, to this day. 15 MR. MAISTELMAN: Okay. To this day. 16 And I think the - - the report, at least the ones 17 I have, tend to reflect that. 18 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: This matter is in 19 committee. 20 ALDERMAN MCGEE: Mr. Chair, I want to 21 make the - - the motion. 22 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Alderman McGee? 23 ALDERMAN MCGEE: Yes. I move just to 24 issue a warning letter similar to the last 25 hearing, despite items contained in the police 00045 1 report. 2 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: And do you wish to 3 exclude - - 4 ALDERMAN MCGEE: And to exclude - - 5 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: What item number 6 is that? 7 ALDERMAN MCGEE: To exclude the - - I 8 guess we would exclude the police report. So 9 despite items cited in the - - the meeting 10 notice. 11 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman, I believe 12 it would be the incident of April 16th, 2007, 13 where a bullet was discovered in an adjoining 14 neighbor's residence. And I believe it would be 15 Milwaukee incident report number 071060064. 16 Because there will be, I'm certain, additional 17 supplements to that report as the investigation 18 goes on. 19 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Okay. As long as 20 it's properly noticed at a subsequent meeting, we 21 can use those. 22 MR. SCHRIMPF: Right. 23 ALDERMAN DAVIS: A procedural question? 24 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Yes, go ahead. 25 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Since I have so many 00046 1 constituents here to testify on this matter, if 2 we seek a revocation hearing, will they have to 3 come back and testify? Take time out of their 4 time to come back down, because they've been 5 sitting here for over two and a half hours 6 waiting for this particular - - And I was hoping 7 that the committee would actually take testimony, 8 but now, you know, I have constituents who have 9 - - have got to come back down here for a 10 revocation hearing, if, in fact, you know, more 11 information comes to substantiate that issue. 12 And, you know, it's - - You know, they've been 13 very patient. They - - They - - But I know that 14 it's the procedure. But it's unfortunate, 15 because I really do feel that this particular 16 applicant lied. 17 And I know, Mr. Chairman, thank you for 18 the personal privilege, because I know it's in 19 committee, but I have to speak up on for those 20 who have come down here to give you testimony on 21 an issue that really impacts the safety of the 22 neighborhood. 23 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: And - - And to 24 those residents, you know, we - - I can feel your 25 emotion all the way across the room, but we're 00047 1 - - we're talking about, we have some procedural 2 things that we're - - that we're working through 3 right now. And if the motion has been made, and 4 if the - - if the majority of the committee 5 wishes not to support this motion, I mean, this 6 will go a different direction. But the motion's 7 been made by Alderman McGee to approve the 8 renewal of this license with the issuance of a 9 warning letter, but excluding police report - - 10 excluding police incident report number 11 071060064, dated 4/16 of 2007. And is there any 12 discussion on that motion? 13 ALDERMAN BOHL: On the motion, Mr. 14 Chairman. 15 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Alderman Bohl. 16 ALDERMAN BOHL: Mr. Chairman. 17 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Just hold on a 18 second. Go ahead, Alderman. 19 ALDERMAN BOHL: I, honestly in terms of 20 the report that we have before us, supplement of 21 this report and based on neighborhood testimony, 22 I - - I personally could probably draw a 23 reasonable judgment as to whether or not there 24 were gunshots there. I was hoping from the start 25 that we would have heard neighborhood testimony 00048 1 and just add the existing report that was before 2 us. I - - I certainly respect the will of this 3 committee and think that if there is further 4 evidence, that perhaps it ought to be - - it 5 ought to be brought forward. There is a real 6 issue, though, if you are seeking to exclude the 7 police report in taking testimony from neighbors 8 that you would absolutely then otherwise ignore, 9 and then say that they don't need to show up 10 again for a whole separate hearing, which a 11 revocation hearing would be, because it would not 12 be in the same license term. You know, and 13 again, procedurally, we're at a disadvantage, 14 but, you know, based on what - - what it states 15 here in the police report if there was actually 16 evidence that could corroborate in the testimony, 17 I'd be open to hearing that and - - And ruling on 18 this right here and now. I understand if there 19 are other members who wish to seek additional 20 evidence, based on the fact that - - that there 21 is not a ballistic test, and that we don't have 22 the entirety of the police report before us with 23 all - - all of its supplements. 24 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Anything further 25 by members of the committee? Should we - - Why 00049 1 don't we take a roll call on Alderman McGee's 2 motion? 3 CLERK ELMER: Alderman Bohl? 4 ALDERMAN BOHL: No. 5 CLERK ELMER: Alderman McGee? 6 ALDERMAN MCGEE: Aye. 7 CLERK ELMER: Alderman Puente? 8 ALDERMAN PUENTE: Aye. 9 CLERK ELMER: Alderman Wade? 10 ALDERMAN WADE: Aye. 11 CLERK ELMER: Mr. Chair. 12 CHAIRMAN WITKOWIAK: Aye. 13 CLERK ELMER: Motion is approved. Four 14 to one. 15 MR. MAISTELMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 16 THE APPLICANT: Thank you. 17 * * * * * 00050 1 2 3 STATE OF WISCONSIN ) 4 ) 5 MILWAUKEE COUNTY ) 6 7 I, JEAN M. BARINA, of Milwaukee Reporters 8 Associated, Inc., 5124 West Blue Mound Road, 9 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53208, certify that the foregoing 10 proceedings was transcribed under my direction for the 11 license of Stargazers, LLC, that came before the 12 Licenses Committee on May 15th, 2007. 13 14 15 16 17 18 JEAN M. BARINA 19 Court Reporter 20 21 22 Dated this day of June, 2007. 23