LICENSES COMMITTEE CITY OF MILWAUKEE ------------------------------------------------------- In the Matter of: SILK EXOTIC Class B Tavern, Food Dealer, and Public Entertainment Premises License Applications Requesting Disc Jockey, Dancing by Performers, Adult Entertainment/Strippers/Erotic Dance, Patron Contests, and Patrons Dancing. SCOTT A. KRAHN 730 North Old World Third Street ------------------------------------------------------- The above and entitled cause, taken under and pursuant to all applicable rules before KIMBERLY C. WATTENBACH, Court Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Wisconsin, taken on November 6, 2013. P.O. Box 270265, Milwaukee Wisconsin, 53227 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 CITY OF MILWAUKEE, OFFICE OF CITY ATTORNEY, by 3 MR. ADAM B. STEPHENS, 200 East Wells Street, Room 800, City Hall, 4 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202, appeared on behalf of The City of Milwaukee. 5 THE JEFF SCOTT OLSON LAW FIRM, S.C., by 6 MR. JEFF SCOTT OLSON, 131 West Wilson Street, Suite 1200, 7 Madison, Wisconsin 53703, appeared on behalf of The Applicant. 8 MICHAEL A. WHITCOMB LAW OFFICES, by 9 MR. MICHAEL A. WHITCOMB, 633 West Wisconsin Avenue, #510, 10 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53233, appeared on behalf of The Applicant. 11 12 A L S O P R E S E N T 13 Ms. Sarah Furey Crandall, Trial Consultant With The Jeff Scott Olson Law Firm, S.C. 14 * * * * * 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. The License 3 Committee meeting will now come to order. The time 4 right now is about 9:12 a.m. To my left is 5 Alderman Joe Dudzik. To my right is Alderman Jose 6 Perez. Alderwoman Milele Coggs and Alderman 7 Nik Kovac will be joining the Committee shortly. 8 We're also joined by Assistant City Attorney 9 Adam Stephens. 10 To his left is Sergeant Tabidon (sic), 11 and we also have Tom Wessel from the Licensing 12 Division joining us. The first item on the agenda 13 is Item Number 1, File Number 130768, motion 14 relating to the recommendation of the Licenses 15 Committee relative to licenses. 16 Scott Krahn, agent for Six Star Holdings, 17 LLC, Class B Tavern, Food Dealer, and Public 18 Entertainment Premises License Application 19 Requesting Disc Jockey, Dancing by Performers, 20 Adult Entertainment/Strippers/Erotic Dance, Patron 21 Contests, and Patrons Dancing for Silk Exotic, 22 730 North Old World Third Street. 23 Mr. Scott Krahn and his attorney, please 24 come forward. And please raise your right hand, 25 and we'll swear you in. 4 1 Go ahead. Why don't you swear them in? 2 THE CLERK: Raise your right hands, 3 please. Raise your right hand, if you're not an 4 attorney. 5 Do you solemnly affirm under the pains 6 and penalties of perjury in the State of Wisconsin 7 that the testimony you're about to give is the 8 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Counsel, 10 please state your appearance. 11 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Good morning, 12 Mr. Chairman. My name is Michael Whitcomb, and I'm 13 an attorney representing the applicant. We did 14 receive a notice for today's hearing, and the 15 applicant wishes to express his appreciation to the 16 local Alderman Bob Bauman and also the Members of 17 this Committee for taking time in your busy 18 schedules during this budget cycle to conduct this 19 hearing outside the normal cycle and to provide the 20 accommodations for the numerous witnesses that wish 21 to provide to you their opinions on this matter. 22 Seated to my left is Attorney Jeff Scott 23 Olson, nationally renowned civil rights litigator, 24 and has been involved with litigation with the City 25 concerning this matter. And to his immediate left 5 1 is Sarah Crandall, a legal expert that works in his 2 office. And to her left is John Ferraro, who will 3 be -- is appearing here on behalf of the applicant 4 and is principal in this operation and in 5 operations in Madison, Las Vegas, and in Milwaukee. 6 With that, I have a few opening 7 remarks -- 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Hold on. We 9 actually need Mr. Ferraro to state his name and 10 address and put it on the table. 11 What is your address, sir? 12 MR. FERRARO: John Ferraro, N52W21488 13 Taylor Woods Drive. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Ma'am, your 15 name, please, because we need their address, could 16 you be -- 17 MS. CRANDALL: Sarah Crandall -- 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: You're going to need 19 to come in a lot closer to that microphone. 20 MS. CRANDALL: The Jeff Scott Olson Law 21 Firm, 131 West Wilson Street, Madison, Wisconsin. 22 ATTORNEY OLSON: Jeff Scott Olson, Jeff 23 Scott Olson Law Firm, 131 West Wilson Street, Suite 24 1200, Madison, Wisconsin. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: We also want to 6 1 acknowledge the attendance of Alderman Bob Bauman. 2 Also, Alderman Nik Kovac just joined the Committee. 3 But before we go any further, Counsel, do 4 you acknowledge receipt of today's meeting with the 5 possibility the application may be denied? 6 ATTORNEY OLSON: Yes. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Wessel, any 8 holds? 9 MR. WESSEL: Yes. Neighborhood Services 10 has a hold for occupancy permit, and the Health 11 Department has to do an inspection. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Sergeant 13 Tabidon? (Sic). 14 SERGEANT RADEN: Sergeant Raden. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I gave her a 16 promotion. She's not even here. 17 SERGEANT RADEN: Their last item was from 18 11/24, 2012. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Counsel, this 20 is your opportunity to begin your case. 21 ATTORNEY OLSON: As an opening, 22 Mr. Chairman, I would like to make some comments as 23 the nature of these proceedings present themselves 24 today. As you know, I've done numerous license 25 hearings over the course of some 25 years, and 7 1 something has occurred in the presentation or 2 documentation to this Committee, which I think this 3 Committee should reconsider. 4 My office was recently retained in this 5 matter to represent the applicant in these 6 licensing proceedings, and I reviewed late last 7 week, the notice for this particular hearing. 8 And attached to the notice for this 9 hearing were numerous communications, mostly 10 e-mails, to various city officials and offices with 11 the name and address of the sender removed. 12 If these communications are in the 13 Committee's file on this matter, it is wrong. 14 Negative communications are highly prejudicial and 15 cannot be erased from the Committee Members' minds. 16 It is the well-developed and reasoned 17 practice of this Committee to consider only live 18 testimony because with live testimony, the witness 19 is available to respond to questions. 20 The applicant strenuously objects to the 21 submission of these communications to the 22 Committee. And providing advanced notice of these 23 communications is affectively meaningless in the 24 notice to the applicant without knowing who sent 25 the communication and where they live. 8 1 Who is it that determines what 2 communications are provided to the Committee 3 and to the applicant? Are favorable communications 4 also submitted? Certainly citizens may express 5 their concerns to the License Division and to the 6 local Alderman. 7 The proper response is to inform the 8 sender that if they want their concerns to be 9 considered, we must present them in person before 10 this Committee. Applicants should not be pride in 11 absentia by sending communications to influence you 12 as decision-makers without a hearing. 13 It is submitted respectfully that every 14 decision must be made upon a clean record, a 15 factual record that is made exclusively for this 16 Committee at the time of its hearings. Difficult 17 decisions on substantial business interest of 18 applicants should not be made more difficult by 19 possibly being influenced by information extraneous 20 to the hearing proceedings. 21 Additionally, in this matter, the notice 22 contained two police reports. The synopsis of 23 incidents for two prior occupants of the premises, 24 applicant Robert Smith and Michael Kozak. It is 25 wrong to include these in the notice. They have 9 1 nothing to do with the current applicant for which 2 any police report was submitted. The current 3 applicant should not suffer the sins of the 4 previous bad operators. 5 Finally, the applicant would object to 6 the testimony of tenants from the Grand Apartments, 7 a neighboring residential facility. It is has come 8 to the applicant's attention that these tenants 9 have been paid to come here today to testify in 10 opposition. 11 I present to the Committee notices that 12 were provided to the tenants posted on their doors, 13 posted outside the building indicating that. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Counsel, 15 before we go into too many issues, let's take these 16 issues one at the time. 17 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. I 18 appreciate them, and I think we'll have to go 19 through each one of these issues that Counsel 20 raises independently, and if you could, outline all 21 of your concerns up front -- 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No. No. No. I 23 want to take them one at a time. The first issue 24 that you raise, Counsel, is the issue of 25 communications that occurred to the Committee 10 1 without any kind of identification attached to 2 those communications? 3 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Correct. It's 4 communications from citizens to Members of this 5 Committee that are put in the file record without 6 the identification of that person or their address. 7 And that, by its very nature, would prejudice the 8 decision of this body. You cannot erase knowledge 9 that you have read. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: And what's the 11 remedy that you propose, Counsel? 12 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: In this matter, there 13 is no remedy. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So you just want to 15 state for the record that you feel that would be 16 prejudicial to the Committee? 17 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: It is prejudicial to 18 the Committee. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: And so you're just 20 merely stating that, for the record, that's what 21 your purpose is? 22 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: It is. 23 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: As this is a public 24 meeting, and there is a concern that everyone 25 understands a fair and logical progression of these 11 1 proceedings, I think it would be wise that 2 Mr. Wessel, who is the Assistant Manager of the 3 License Division, explain briefly what the process 4 is for providing notice to neighbors on 5 applications, what neighbors are told to do to 6 respond to that application and what process the 7 License Division takes in compiling the record for 8 a hearing. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Mr. Wessel, 10 please proceed. 11 MR. WESSEL: Okay. So when we would 12 receive an objection from a neighbor, whether it be 13 by letter or by e-mail -- 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mr. Wessel, I'm 15 sorry to interrupt you. 16 But we have a lot of people here, and 17 they're spilling over into the hallway. So I just 18 want to let everybody know we have Room 301A down 19 the hall. So if you want to sit in there, you can 20 review the proceedings. And prior to your 21 testimony, you can come down here and testify. 22 MR. WESSEL: Okay. So when we receive a 23 complaint, either an objection or a letter of 24 support, that does get into the record. Okay. 25 When notice is being sent out to an applicant, we 12 1 include those again, so you can be prepared to 2 defend that. But those objectors are informed that 3 they need to be at this hearing to testify for 4 their complaints to be considered. 5 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Why is it then that 6 the names and addresses are removed from the 7 documents? 8 MR. WESSEL: They do send redacted 9 records to keep that anonymity. 10 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: So as information 11 without a source, you caught me off guard, 12 Mr. Chairman, when you asked me a very good 13 question: What is the remedy? 14 I think the remedy for this Committee 15 today is a remedy that courts impose upon jurors 16 who hear testimony that is inadmissible when 17 presented and where the court would instruct the 18 jurors to disregard that testimony in their 19 deliberation and decision-making. 20 I would ask this Committee and an 21 instruction to this Committee that they disregard 22 any of those communications contained in the record 23 without the identification of the name and address 24 of the particular party and of those communications 25 where the name and address is identified that do 13 1 not appear here to testify. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Counsel -- 3 THE CLERK: Mr. Chair. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: -- your objection is 5 duly noted, and your request is duly noted, as 6 well. 7 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Just so that we're 8 clear, Mr. Wessel, this is standard procedure 9 whenever we have a license hearing, correct? 10 MR. WESSEL: That is correct, sir. 11 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Then I would propose a 12 better solution, Attorney Whitcomb, in that the 13 Common Council pursue a policy that we remove that 14 particular type of information from any future 15 licensing because I can see this as being just a 16 furball going forward. And you're correct. 17 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Mr. Chair. 18 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Hold on. Before we 20 have any further discussion, I want to ask the City 21 Attorney -- the Assistant City Attorney to weigh in 22 with this respect. 23 Mr. Stevens. 24 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Thank you. I 25 appreciate your consideration. 14 1 Number one, Mr. Wessel, the records and 2 the neighborhood objections are redacted by your 3 office, correct? 4 MR. WESSEL: That's correct, sir. 5 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And those unredacted 6 records are kept by your office and are available 7 for inspection publically, correct -- 8 MR. WESSEL: Yes, sir. 9 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: -- in your office? 10 It's just that the records that are mailed out are 11 unredacted, correct? 12 MR. WESSEL: Correct. 13 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: So, Mr. Whitcomb, is 14 your objection that the records are redacted or 15 that they're in existence, generally -- 16 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: The records -- 17 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: -- meaning if they 18 were unredacted records, would you have the same 19 objection? 20 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Yes. Because it is 21 contained in the file before this Committee that 22 this Committee reviews in preparation for these 23 hearings. And they're non-evidentiary, and they're 24 highly prejudicial, if there are objections. 25 And the policy of this Committee is to 15 1 base its decision on testimony brought before this 2 Committee not based upon extraneous documentation 3 from whatever the source. 4 And human nature -- you read 20 letters 5 that object to a type of operation of a business, 6 that's going to remain in one's decision-making 7 process no matter how objective and pure of a 8 decision-maker you are. 9 To prevent that from happening, keep the 10 record clean, if people submit e-mails to the 11 City -- letters to the City, to the local Alderman 12 objecting to a particular license, make it part of 13 the License Division record. Make it part of the 14 local Alderman's office record. 15 But the communication from the License 16 Division and from the local Alderman's office or 17 from the City Clerk is: Thank you for your 18 comments, duly noted, should you like your concerns 19 to be heard, you must be presented in person by 20 your testimony at the Committee. Simple as that. 21 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 23 Attorney Stephens. 24 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: I think the issue has 25 been made by Counsel. I'd just like to highlight 16 1 to Committee that the initial grant of a liquor 2 license is a decision. People have a right to file 3 and petition their governments with their views on 4 any number of things. 5 And this Committee or any other Committee 6 that is made up by Common Council receives letters 7 and correspondence all of the time. And I think 8 you can give it the weight that you feel 9 appropriate. 10 I can let you know that the code does 11 require that your decision today must be based upon 12 evidence that's put forth before you today. And 13 that has been also the long-standing tradition and 14 consistent with notice that the City Clerk gives 15 out to all neighborhood objectors; that they must 16 come down and testify in person. 17 So I think the record is sufficient now. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Counsel, do 19 you have any further questions on that? 20 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No, Mr. Chair. Thank 21 you. 22 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chairman, I kind 23 of feel like I'm in kindergarten because we've been 24 doing this for a while, and if people don't show up 25 to back up what they send us, we make a decision 17 1 based on what is presented here. 2 I don't think we need to be insulted or 3 talked through that. I think we all know that; 4 what's legally acceptable and what's not. We get 5 e-mails all of the time -- in fact, I got e-mails 6 in support of Silk. I've gotten e-mails against 7 Silk. 8 I can't base my judgment on those 9 e-mails. We have to base our judgment on what 10 happens here today. We know that. I just want to 11 make that clear for the viewing public because what 12 just transpired over the last ten minutes kind of 13 made it seem like we don't have a set policy and 14 procedure of how we deal with this, and we do. 15 This is an ordinary course of business. 16 And as far as people sending the communications to 17 the department, Mr. Wessel clearly said they sent 18 -- they let them know that in order for them to 19 come -- they need to testify. 20 That's part of the existing process. I 21 mean, some people may not like the process, but our 22 decision is based on what happens here. We get 23 e-mails all the time. Anybody watching on a 24 regular basis will see that we'll be, like, well, 25 somebody sent a letter. There's no objectors, here 18 1 so move approval. 2 We do that all of the time. So I don't 3 think our judgment is any more tainted in this case 4 because of having received e-mails or whatever. We 5 know that our judgment has to be based on what's 6 here today. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. So Counsel, 8 are you ready to proceed with your witnesses? 9 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Wait. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 11 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: There's two other 12 matters that Counsel brought up. And let's be 13 frank; the reality is that the City of Milwaukee is 14 currently involved in federal court on this matter. 15 And we have a court reporter here. This is being 16 transcribed, and we're going to make as best a 17 record as we can. So we would beg the indulgence, 18 the lawyers would beg the indulgence of those 19 people that are here present. 20 Because we want to make sure that every 21 issue that is brought up by about the applicant is 22 fairly addressed by this Body. The next issue that 23 Mr. Whitcomb brought up was that he had an 24 objection to the inclusion of the police reports 25 regarding the past applicants for this location. 19 1 And I think Mr. Wessel can also address why those 2 items are included and if that is something unusual 3 in this case or is something that is done in every 4 case. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Mr. Wessel? 6 MR. WESSEL: If there are previous 7 incidents that happened at this location, those are 8 included in our report that we would receive from 9 the police department. 10 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And the time between 11 this application and those previous applicants is 12 because of the location -- 13 MR. WESSEL: Correct. Yes. 14 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: -- of the proposed 15 premises at 730 Old North World Third Street? 16 MR. WESSEL: That is correct. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 18 Attorney Whitcomb? 19 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Were either of those 20 two earlier licenses, licenses that granted the 21 permission to have adult entertainment? 22 MR. WESSEL: No. They were Class B 23 Tavern Licenses. 24 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: So they were not 25 similar in operation? 20 1 MR. WESSEL: Let me look at the tavern 2 license for Rusty's. But, again, it was a Class B 3 Tavern. 4 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: There is a Class B 5 Tavern application on file on this application, 6 correct? 7 MR. WESSEL: That is correct. 8 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And they're with a 9 Class B Tavern application on file for Mike Kozak 10 and Martini Mike's, correct? 11 MR. WESSEL: Correct. 12 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: So that would be the 13 similarity between the applications. 14 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: But there is no 15 similarity for a public entertainment license for 16 exotic dancing, correct? 17 MR. WESSEL: A proposed entertainment 18 premises. Right. 19 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Well, for purposes of 20 Counsel, yes, the City would stipulate that was not 21 of record. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. So there's a 23 third issue. 24 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: The third -- and I 25 think that's a sufficient record on that note -- 21 1 the third issue is the allegation by -- and the 2 flyer that was handed out by Counsel regarding the 3 Grand Avenue tenants. Can you explain this? 4 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: I cannot. I didn't 5 post it. I did not draft it. 6 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: How did you come 7 across it? 8 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: It was put on the 9 building. 10 MR. FERRARO: It was on the building next 11 door to us, and it was on the building. 12 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: I'm sorry? 13 MR. FERRARO: It was on the building next 14 door; the Grand Milwaukee. 15 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Where was it posted, 16 outside of the proposed location? 17 MR. FERRARO: Yes. And inside the 18 building and the hallways, and it was all inside of 19 their building. 20 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Well, then it may 21 be -- 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I have a question 23 here. I don't know if anybody -- if this really, 24 you know, carries any weight, was anybody -- if 25 somebody came down here because they felt they were 22 1 going to get $100, do they really believe they're 2 going to get $100 from somebody who sends out an 3 anonymous note for identification? 4 MR. FERRARO: And the guy who runs the 5 property said that he wrote that letter, and he was 6 the one who is paying -- giving $100 off the rent. 7 So it's not anonymous. He was actually on the 8 news, and he is actually here today. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: He's here today. 10 What's his name? 11 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair, I think 12 the way to handle this is -- 13 MR. FERRARO: It's the guy right here. 14 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: It does indicate that 15 the ownership of the building presumably is 16 offering a rent credit. So I would think that, at 17 some point in the hearing today, we'll be hearing 18 testimony from the individual, and he has 19 acknowledged drafting this. And we should ask 20 tenants who are witnesses if they received any 21 compensation for testimony. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Before we do that, I 23 want to get to the bottom of this thing right now. 24 Why don't you come up to the microphone, please? 25 Raise your right hand. We're going to swear you 23 1 in. Please raise your right hand. 2 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 3 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 4 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 5 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 6 truth? 7 MR. BELANGER: I do. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 9 please? 10 MR. BELANGER: Reggie Belanger, 202 East 11 Highland Avenue senior vice-president of Segal 12 Gallagher Management Company. We're the agent 13 management company and ownership group. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Did you type 15 that up and distribute it? 16 MR. BELANGER: I, personally, did not. 17 An employee of mine did. We posted it. We had 18 residents comes to us with concerns about Silk 19 Nightclub, and we sold them that they needed to 20 present themselves to the Committee to really have 21 their voices heard. 22 And the concern became it was during 23 normal business hours, and it would be a hardship, 24 you know, lost wages or lost vacation time. So we 25 offered to give them $100 rent credit if they took 24 1 time off work and came here. And that's really how 2 it came to be. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. So now we 4 know what happened, what the reasoning was. 5 Attorney Stephens, what's your 6 recommendation as to in terms of how we proceed 7 with this and the testimony. 8 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: The credibility of 9 each witness is paramount, obviously, because their 10 sworn testimony is evidence in this case. I think 11 it's up to the Committee to decide whether or not a 12 witness is creditable. 13 If the Committee decides that receipt of 14 $100 or $100 rent credit affects the credibility of 15 the truthfulness of somebody's statement, they 16 should disregard that person's testimony and 17 statement. 18 If they believe that the rent credit or 19 $100 would not affect their credibility, then maybe 20 you would accept their credibility. I think you 21 need to look at it on a witness-by-witness basis 22 and make that call for yourself. 23 Although, certainly, it is concerning to 24 hear that witnesses are paid to -- and not hearing 25 that they're paid, to testify in a specific manner. 25 1 I'm hearing that they're paid or at least offered a 2 rent credit to take time off in their day. 3 It's not unheard of. Witnesses are often 4 given fees to come to court. It's a matter of 5 executing a subpoena. However, witness fees are 6 typically about $20. So I think each witness needs 7 to be looked at in its own manner and decide if 8 they're credible. 9 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney -- I mean 11 Alderman Dudzik. 12 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I have to point out to 13 Attorney Stephens that this letter clearly states 14 how they are to and what they are to say; tell them 15 this is or this will be adversely impacted, blah, 16 blah, blah. 17 It clearly, in my opinion, this letter 18 does not give anyone the opportunity to come down 19 and say, this would be a great thing in my 20 neighborhood. This clearly says, come down, you 21 will get your money only if and when you come down 22 and say -- tell them these things. 23 And I think -- you know, I've seen a lot 24 of silliness with regards to this particular 25 location. There was a flyer with a woman holding a 26 1 shotgun to a werewolf. I never, never really 2 caught the end of that particular flyer. Those, I 3 think are just that: silliness. 4 This, to me, is something other than 5 silliness. And I just think it's unfortunate that 6 the ownership is offering this type of incentive to 7 testify in a specific manner. 8 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Hold on. Hold on. 10 You know, I agree with the perspective of 11 Alderman Dudzik. I mean, they are clearly -- even 12 though they don't say it directly, the inference is 13 you're going to get the $100 if you testify in a 14 certain fashion, and that is concerning. 15 But before I go any further with this, 16 did you have something to go add? 17 MR. BELANGER: I did. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Now, that you 19 understand -- let me ask you this: Now that you 20 understand this is not really the way to do 21 business before this Committee, are you willing to 22 retract this, or what are you proposing? 23 Because right now, we're trying to decide 24 how we're going to go grapple with this. And to be 25 quite frank, we're tempted to just to knock out the 27 1 whole testimony -- 2 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair, before he 3 answers that question, I really need to say 4 something about how we should handle this. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Go ahead. 6 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Because whether or not 7 he retracts it or not should not of its own accord 8 -- and he never should have done it in the first 9 place, I agree with Alderman Dudzik -- but it 10 should not taint every tenant with which he has a 11 business relationship because he did something 12 foolish, okay? 13 This is not the first time -- this is the 14 first time such a foolish paper trail has been 15 created. But this is not the first time this issue 16 has been before this Committee as Alderwoman Coggs 17 said on another matter a minute ago. 18 All of the time, especially with corner 19 stores, the lawyer for the corner store -- or I'm 20 sorry -- will ask or -- I mean -- not lawyer, but 21 objectors or sometimes there are lawyers for the 22 objectors, will ask people or we'll ask if we smell 23 a rat. We'll say, did the guy give you cigarettes 24 to come here? Are you getting paid? You know, 25 this comes up. 28 1 So I think now that we have Counsel here 2 in adversity to these witnesses, every time someone 3 from this building comes up, ask them if they 4 expect this rent credit, and we'll evaluate each 5 witness on his own merits. 6 But I don't think if he retracts that 7 offer or not, I think it's up to the witness to 8 establish their credibility. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I'll tell you the 10 difference between the scenarios; you outlined an 11 experience we've had in the past with respect to 12 this, this is totally different than this situation 13 because in each and every one of those situations, 14 the people have denied that they've been offered 15 money if they show up in the first place. 16 This is the only offer I've come across 17 in the six years of this Committee where there's 18 actually written proof, written documentation and 19 actually backed up by first-hand testimony they 20 were offering testimony to come down to testify in 21 a certain way. 22 So, okay, everybody wants to speak, so 23 everybody settle down. We're going to get to 24 everybody. If we have to stay here until midnight 25 tonight, we've got nothing scheduled after this. 29 1 So if we have to be here until midnight, we can do 2 it. No problem. 3 Before we go around the table here, I 4 want to get to you. So now, in light of this 5 entire conversation, what do you have to say? 6 MR. BELANGER: Well, the point I want to 7 make is the money is not for the testimony. It's 8 just for showing up. And the memorandum talks 9 about things to say. People asked, came to us and 10 asked what kind of things should we talk about. 11 And we're just reiterating some of the 12 things back to them that they voiced to us. The 13 $100 isn't meant -- I don't know what people are 14 going to say. I don't even know who the people 15 are. 16 They're going to get up, whether they 17 come up here, whether they're for or against. It 18 has nothing to do with the type of testimony. It 19 doesn't -- I don't believe the memo says you must 20 testify this way in order to get your $100. 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I just have to say, 22 you're digging a deeper and deeper hole. This 23 says, quite frankly, tell them -- which is the 24 License Committee -- this will adversely affect 25 parking, noise levels, and crime in our 30 1 neighborhood. Tell them you don't want to live 2 next door to that. And you're telling me that's 3 not what you're saying? 4 MR. BELANGER: It's not what we're 5 saying. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 7 MR. BELANGER: We're reiterating back to 8 them the message that they gave us. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I'll tell you what: 10 I don't buy it. The more you're talking, the more 11 you're really turning me off. 12 Here's what we're going to do is, 13 Alderman Bauman, before we go to you, we're going 14 to go to the Committee Members first. 15 Alderwoman Coggs, go on. 16 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I appreciate the 17 transparency. As Alderman Kovac said, I'm certain 18 that there's people getting paid to come here to 19 testify, whether it is for their time or whether 20 it's a six-pack or if it's cigarettes, we know it. 21 That happens. I appreciate the transparency and 22 the admission that this happened. 23 I do think it could've been handled 24 better. But I also just want to be clear about 25 this. 31 1 And, Attorney Stephens, you can chime in 2 for me and correct me if I'm wrong. Though we may 3 not like testimony that's compelled or that appears 4 to be compelled by a payment, this isn't illegal, 5 right? 6 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Supporting perjury 7 isn't, if it's not -- 8 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I'm not -- Attorney 9 Stephens. 10 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Any individual has a 11 right to come and testify before this Committee if 12 they have an opinion on this. This Committee has a 13 right to hear from those who are most affected by 14 the licensed premises, which typically are witness. 15 Supporting perjury is a crime. 16 I'm not going to go down that road 17 because this is simply saying -- and whether you 18 accept this version of what it is, it's merely a 19 fee to help people miss work because these hearings 20 do run multiple hours. We were here a couple of 21 Fridays ago for seven-plus hours where witnesses 22 had to sit around and miss work. So I am not 23 unsympathetic to that. Because that is something 24 that is commonly provided for witnesses by the City 25 of Milwaukee when they receive a $20 witness fee 32 1 from the City of Milwaukee to testify on other 2 matters. 3 On the other hand, this applicant is also 4 right that they're not going to get a fair shake 5 because witnesses are basically drummed up to come 6 here and voice their displeasure with this 7 application. 8 I think the most prudent course and the 9 most logical course is to look at each witness on 10 their own merits, ask them what their testimony is, 11 ensure -- and I would, I guess, ask that each 12 witness is sworn specifically before they testify, 13 and then they will be subject to prosecution if 14 they falsely testify. 15 But ask them to be sworn under oath as to 16 their opinions, and they certainly can be 17 cross-examined by the applicant's attorneys, and 18 they can be asked questions by this Committee as to 19 whether or not their sworn testimony was affected 20 by the promise or payment of the $100 or $100 rent 21 credit. 22 I think you have to look at each 23 testimony on their own merits because, frankly, 24 each tenant may have wanted to come down and 25 testify regardless of this offer. 33 1 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Which is -- 2 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And that person still 3 has a right to be heard, too. 4 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Which was my second 5 point. The reason the attorney's suggestion that 6 we should not listen to testimony from people from 7 the whole apartment complex is something that I 8 don't agree with is because of the fact they are 9 neighbors. They have a right to testify. 10 Whether or not they choose to get the 11 $100 credit is something that will be determined 12 beyond today. But they still have a right to be 13 heard. So the thought that we should disregard all 14 of their testimony on the front end is something 15 that I'm not accepting of. Because we -- I don't 16 believe we have the right to take away their right 17 to testify from them. And the second thing is 18 this: There are some people who come down here who 19 don't get paid that I don't believe. 20 We have to decide. Somebody gets sworn 21 in or testifying the truthfulness of their 22 statements, I think we're wise enough to do that 23 whether it's with $100 or it's without, it's not 24 creditable. We do that all of the time. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. So what we're 34 1 going to do -- Counsel, Attorney Whitcomb, I don't 2 agree with your analysis that this is supporting 3 perjury. So I think we've discussed -- we've 4 discussed this. What we're going to do is, we're 5 going to take each individual person, you know, 6 from this building. And we're going to ask them 7 questions about their testimony, and we're going to 8 weigh the validity and credibility of each of those 9 witnesses. 10 Go ahead. 11 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Mr. Chairman, I would 12 inquire of the representative of Segal Gallagher 13 where this document was distributed and the 14 addresses of the building where it was distributed, 15 so the Committee knows when the witness identifies 16 themself by name and address, they could be a 17 witness that received this document and caused them 18 to be here. 19 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney Stephens. 21 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: I think that's 22 probably a good idea, but in lieu of that -- the 23 Committee asking that, we should allow Counsel to 24 cross-examine when -- 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: You have a chance to 35 1 do that during cross-examination. 2 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Or right now. 3 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Or do it right now. 4 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: It's sort of out of 5 order. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Go ahead. 7 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: The document that 8 we're speaking of -- and I'll refer to it as the 9 "Voice Your Objections Document" -- your company, 10 management company, caused that to be distributed 11 in the area of the applicant's property, is that 12 correct? 13 MR. BELANGER: No. That's not correct. 14 It was distributed only inside our building. 15 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And what is your 16 building, sir? 17 MR. BELANGER: 730 -- excuse me -- 720 18 Old World Third. 19 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And by whom was it 20 distributed? 21 MR. BELANGER: The on-site manager. 22 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And did the on-site 23 manager indicate to you how it was distributed? 24 MR. BELANGER: It was placed in various 25 places in the building. 36 1 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Was it posted to each 2 tenant's door in the building? 3 MR. BELANGER: No. 4 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Was it posted on each 5 floor in the building? 6 MR. BELANGER: Not every floor. I 7 believe more in the common areas. 8 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Was it posted in the 9 elevator of the building? 10 MR. BELANGER: Yes. 11 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Sir? 12 MR. BELANGER: Yes. 13 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: So in all likelihood, 14 a tenant of 730 Old Word Third Street would have, 15 at some time, seen "Voice Your Objections" had they 16 been residing at that location at the time? 17 MR. BELANGER: I suspect they all saw it. 18 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Nothing further, 19 Mr. Chairman. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Do we have 21 any other questions by the Committee? 22 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: It's been indicated 23 that the notice was put on the outside of 730 Old 24 World Third Street, the location of this applicant. 25 Are you aware of that? 37 1 MR. BELANGER: I'm unaware of that, if it 2 was posted there. It wasn't our staff. 3 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Do you know that for 4 a fact? Do you have anyone here that you can ask 5 of that? 6 MR. BELANGER: I asked the question, and 7 it was only inside our building. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 9 Committee? Hold on, sir. Any questions by 10 Committee? Counsel? Attorney Stephens? 11 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And forgive me, but 12 was that witness put under oath? 13 THE CLERK: Yes. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 15 the whole -- he gave us a lot more than we normally 16 get. 17 ALDERMAN KOVAC: We got a title out of 18 him. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Well, thank you, 20 sir. So everybody that's here to testify on this 21 matter -- 22 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Could I just make a -- 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: But before we hear 24 from you. We're going to hear from you in a 25 second. 38 1 Anybody that is in Room 301A that wants 2 to testify, come to this room, so we can swear you 3 in. 4 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 5 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair, I think 6 for the purposes of today, I think just for 7 purposes of the record and ensuring that every 8 single witness understands the sanctity of their 9 testimony, we do that individually. 10 I know that has not been the past way 11 we've done things, but I think that's something 12 that we should consider in this case, especially 13 because of the volume of witnesses here. 14 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Absolutely. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Okay. What 16 we're going to do is, Alderman Bauman, please 17 proceed. 18 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Yeah. Thank you. 19 Mr. Chair, Members of the Committee, I just want to 20 make a few points since there was essentially a 21 motion made to exclude my constituents from -- 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: There was no motion. 23 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Well, motion by the 24 applicant. I mean, he's requesting relief from 25 this Committee, namely, that significant number of 39 1 my constituents be excluded from testifying. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: We've already ruled. 3 That's not happening. 4 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: And I just want to 5 state for the record, these residents of the Grand 6 Avenue Apartments have been weighing in on this 7 issue for a long time. This goes back to the last 8 time we heard this well over a year ago, maybe two 9 years ago now. 10 So this is not some new subject to which 11 their attention has just been directed, and they're 12 just looking around for something to do, and they 13 figured, oh, for 100 bucks, I'll just come down 14 here and testify. That's number one. 15 Number two, I think the point has been 16 made well, but in the ten years I have been on this 17 Council representing the district that has the 18 largest number of liquor licenses in the city, I 19 can tell you there is business for witnesses 20 receiving consideration for coming down here, comes 21 up all of the time and is suspected all of the 22 time. Never has been it been so explicitly 23 acknowledged as we have here today, but that should 24 not diminish the issue, because I'm sure 25 Mr. Whitcomb, who is a very able counsel, will 40 1 cross-examine every resident of the Grand Avenue 2 Apartments thoroughly and completely as to whether 3 they are taking advantage of that rent credit and 4 whether that influenced their testimony in any way. 5 And this Body can certainly evaluate 6 their answer to determine the weight given to their 7 testimony. So I just want to make sure we're not 8 just lopping off large numbers of residents of the 9 4th District who actually live in the city for 10 their ability to testify about their own 11 neighborhood impact. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Well, your 13 compelling testimony will weigh very heavily on 14 whether or not to exclude these witnesses. 15 Okay. Before we proceed -- 16 ATTORNEY OLSON: We have one more 17 preliminary matter before we move on. This will be 18 very brief. We have before the Committee both an 19 application for a liquor license and an application 20 for a public entertainment permit. We'd like to 21 make it clear that we want the Committee to 22 recommend both be granted. 23 But in the event that the Committee 24 should decide not to grant the liquor license, we 25 want the Committee to grant the public 41 1 entertainment without the liquor license. Thank 2 you. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What we're 4 going to do at this time is, Alderwoman Coggs will 5 move to enter the offer -- the written offer to pay 6 $100 to people who live in the building. There 7 being no objection, so ordered. 8 Okay. How many people are here to 9 testify in opposition to this matter? Please raise 10 your right hand. Okay. So what we're going to do 11 is, people that are in -- 12 THE CLERK: These two. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What we're 14 going to do is, we had people sign sheets in 15 objection or in favor, and since there may be 16 people in Room 301A, what I'm going to do is read 17 three names in a row of people that are going to be 18 called upon to testify next. 19 So what I'd ask is that the first three 20 seats next to the microphone here be vacated. And 21 I'd like to begin to -- is that opposition? No. 22 So I'd like Taylor Imm, please get up to 23 the microphone. And then before Mr. Imm testifies, 24 we're going to have Tyler Leverington, 25 Tyler Leverington, grab a seat in the front row. 42 1 Steve Chernof, seat in the first row. And then 2 Clayton Davis. Okay. So that's how we're going to 3 handle this. Okay. 4 Sir, why don't you please raise your 5 right hand to be sworn in, please. 6 THE CLERK: Do you swear -- 7 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: For purposes of the 8 record, I'd like to note that Mr. Scott Krahn, the 9 licensed agent for this application, is here in 10 attendance. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Okay. And 12 also, anybody that's listening to this that has a 13 desire to speak, if you haven't filled out these 14 registration forms, please do so and submit it to 15 the Clerk. 16 Okay. Sir, please raise your right hand 17 to be sworn in. 18 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 19 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 20 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 21 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 22 truth? 23 MR. IMM: Yes. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 25 please? 43 1 MR. IMM: 720 -- Taylor Imm. I live at 2 Grand Ave Wisconsin, 720 Old World Third Street. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What's your 4 testimony? 5 MR. IMM: Testimony is objecting to Silk 6 as my neighbor. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Are you doing 8 it because you were offered $100, or do you feel 9 it's going to have a detrimental impact on your 10 quality of life? 11 MR. IMM: I'm doing it because I don't 12 want it over there. I don't want the $100. I 13 don't care. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 15 Committee? Counsel? 16 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Thank you, sir. How 17 much do you pay in rent per month? 18 MR. IMM: I pay about $1,100 per month. 19 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Thank you. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: That was good. 21 Thanks very much, sir. I appreciate your 22 testimony. 23 Next speaker is Tyler Leverington. Raise 24 your right hand to be sworn in, please. 25 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 44 1 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 2 Wisconsin that the testimony you are about to give 3 is tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 4 the truth? 5 MR. LEVERINGTON: I do. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 7 please? 8 MR. LEVERINGTON: Tyler Leverington, 720 9 North Old World. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What's your 11 testimony? 12 MR. LEVERINGTON: My testimony is in 13 objection to this going in next door. A number of 14 things -- a number of concerns; one is foot 15 traffic. I live -- in the past, I've lived near a 16 different venue of the same type, and there was a 17 lot of shady activity in the area. 18 I guess, somewhat, as a result relative 19 to the rest of the area, if it moves in, I'll 20 certainly be moving out of the building. I know my 21 neighbor on the one side will also be moving out. 22 And it's just also really a detrimental impact to 23 the neighborhood as well. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Very good. 25 Questions by Committee? 45 1 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 3 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I won't ask if you 4 would even accept because I believe your testimony. 5 I do want to know how long have you lived there. 6 MR. LEVERINGTON: Just under a year. 7 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Okay. So you weren't 8 there when there were shots fired or homicides? 9 MR. LEVERINGTON: I was not. 10 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: All right. Thank you. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Counsel? 12 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Sir, you testified 13 that you lived next to a different venue of the 14 same type? 15 MR. LEVERINGTON: Yep. 16 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: What would that be, 17 and where was it located? 18 MR. LEVERINGTON: It was a strip club in 19 North Dakota named The North. 20 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Were you in an 21 apartment or a house? 22 MR. LEVERINGTON: Yeah. In an apartment. 23 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And could you 24 describe the premises, the club itself? 25 MR. LEVERINGTON: Um -- 46 1 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Have you been in it? 2 MR. LEVERINGTON: Yes. 3 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Was it a strip club 4 or a gentlemen's club? 5 MR. LEVERINGTON: It was a strip club 6 downstairs and a bar upstairs. 7 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Have you been to Silk 8 on Silver Spring Road on the Northwest Side? 9 MR. LEVERINGTON: No, I have not. 10 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Thank you. No other 11 questions. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 13 Okay. Next speaker is Steve Chernof. 14 MR. CHERNOF: Yeah. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. And while 16 Steve Chernof is going to the microphone, our next 17 speakers will be Clayton Davis, Reggie Belanger, 18 and Megan Westra. 19 Okay. Please raise your right hand to be 20 sworn in. 21 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 22 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 23 Wisconsin that the testimony you are about to give 24 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 25 truth? 47 1 MR. CHERNOF: I do. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 3 please? 4 MR. CHERNOF: Steven Chernof. I live in 5 Shorewood at 3722 North Lake Drive, but I work at 6 780 North Water Street in Milwaukee. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Can you 8 please spell your last name? 9 MR. CHERNOF: C-H-E-R-N-O-F. Okay. I am 10 here today to speak in objection to the grant of 11 the licenses on behalf of what used to be known as 12 the West Wisconsin Avenue Task Force, which 13 Mayor Barrett asked me to lead and which has now 14 become a new entity called WAMDC, LLC, which is an 15 acronym for Wisconsin Avenue Milwaukee Development 16 Corporation. 17 We have significant interest in the 18 redevelopment of West Wisconsin Avenue from the 19 river to Marquette. And our efforts center around 20 development of housing, specialty retail, and 21 bringing entrepreneurs into the area, so that it 22 can be redeveloped to its former glory. 23 The grant of the license to this 24 gentlemen's club will be a significant detriment to 25 our efforts. The effect will be that we will be 48 1 unable, we believe, to attract families and 2 retailers to the area. 3 There are members of this Council who 4 have significant interest in the development of the 5 area. And I know Alderman Bauman, whose district 6 this is, is very interested in the revitalization 7 effort. 8 If the first development in the area is a 9 gentlemen's club, think of the effect this will 10 have on families, on bringing children to the area, 11 and on the redevelopment efforts. It will, in 12 fact, be a sign that the city is not interested in 13 the redevelopment efforts. I know that's not the 14 case, but that will be the effect of the decision 15 to grant these licenses. Thank you. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Hold on. 17 Hold on. Questions by Committee? 18 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 20 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Sir, how long have you 21 been the head of this WAM or the previous entity? 22 MR. CHERNOF: It's a great name, isn't 23 it? I didn't pick the name. It's been about a 24 year and a half, I think it is. 25 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: And prior to the WAM 49 1 version, how long were you a leader of that? 2 MR. CHERNOF: Well, WAM is a new entity. 3 In late June, we held a two-day session attended by 4 the Mayor, by some Council members, by business 5 leaders, by property owners, and others interested 6 in the redevelopment effort. 7 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Correct. I understand 8 that. But prior to the entity WAM, you said you 9 were -- 10 MR. CHERNOF: The whole time period is 11 about a year and a half or so. WAM is brand new. 12 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Okay. 13 MR. CHERNOF: It was just in the last 14 couple of weeks. 15 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Okay. Thank you. 16 MR. CHERNOF: Yes. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: You're not a big 18 George Michael fan, are you? 19 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman, before I 20 let him go, so in the year and a half the WAM has 21 been around, there's been no other development in 22 the Wisconsin Avenue -- 23 MR. CHERNOF: That's correct. It was -- 24 if you look at the Third Ward, what you'll see is 25 that it took 20 to 30 years to develop. This is 50 1 not a short-term effort. 2 It's an effort that requires sustained 3 time and commitment by people over a long period of 4 time. It was in late June that we really began to 5 galvanize the interested parties in the area and 6 begin our effort. 7 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. And one 8 last question. When we speak of WAM, does WAM only 9 -- what's the word I'm looking for -- concern 10 itself with businesses along Wisconsin Avenue, or 11 are there parameters that you go north three 12 blocks, south three blocks? 13 MR. CHERNOF: It's Wisconsin Avenue and 14 the areas immediately adjacent to Wisconsin Avenue. 15 And by that, I mean a block or two blocks. 16 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any other 18 further questions by Committee? If not, Counsel? 19 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Thank you. 20 Mr. Chernof, your testimony is that we 21 believe a gentlemen's club will have detrimental 22 effects to the development west of the river. Do 23 you have any empirical data to support that belief? 24 MR. CHERNOF: I have the people in our 25 group who have expressed very strongly their 51 1 opinion that a strip club will be detrimental to 2 their redevelopment efforts. I can't cite you 3 exact statistics, but I can tell you that my 4 understanding is that in other cities, it's had a 5 detrimental effect. And, frankly -- 6 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: When you say it's 7 your understanding -- 8 MR. CHERNOF: Actually, it's -- allow me 9 to finish. 10 We have had people tell us that they 11 would not be interested in developing businesses or 12 housing in this area if the strip club or the 13 gentlemen's club, or whatever is preferred, is 14 granted licenses at this location. 15 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: What are the names of 16 those people? 17 MR. CHERNOF: I'm not at liberty to tell 18 you the names of people who have said that to me, 19 and I suspect if I did, you'd tell me it was 20 hearsay. 21 I can tell you that -- I can tell you 22 that at a meeting that our group had within the 23 last few weeks, the very strong feeling was that 24 the effort -- our efforts would be significantly 25 diminished if these licenses were granted, and I 52 1 was asked on behalf of the group to make this 2 objection. 3 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: How long have you 4 been familiar with downtown Milwaukee? 5 MR. CHERNOF: A long time. 6 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Five years? 7 MR. CHERNOF: More than five years. 8 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: 20 years? 9 MR. CHERNOF: More than 20 years. 10 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: So you're aware that 11 there is a strip club adjacent to and connected to 12 the Marc Plaza when it was the Marc Plaza? 13 MR. CHERNOF: Frankly, I don't recall 14 that. It doesn't seem relevant to our 15 redevelopment efforts, however. 16 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No other questions. 17 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney -- God, why 19 am I doing that? 20 Alderman Dudzik. 21 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I just want to follow 22 up, and -- and I'm not going to ask you the names 23 of these people that have indicated that they 24 wouldn't be interested in moving because of a 25 gentlemen's club. Have those same entities 53 1 indicated that they would not be interested in 2 moving in if the area was known to have loud music, 3 shooters, and/or homicides? 4 MR. CHERNOF: No. We didn't discuss the 5 subject. 6 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: We just recently had 7 the Lady Bug Club come up before us. Did your 8 group weigh in on that particular location? 9 MR. CHERNOF: No. I would point out -- 10 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. Thank you. 11 Thank you. I got my answer, sir. The answer was 12 "no." 13 MR. CHERNOF: It's not our area, sir. 14 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: That's why I asked for 15 the parameters. I believe that this is just a 16 block or two off. 17 MR. CHERNOF: We're only dealing with 18 west of the river. 19 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: So if it's 300 feet 20 east of the river and a block off, you're not going 21 to be concerned, even though a major -- 22 MR. CHERNOF: Look, downtown 23 redevelopment -- you're asking me a question. 24 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Yeah. Let me ask the 25 question. 54 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Hold on one 2 second, both of you. He's asking you a question, 3 but you have to let him finish asking the question 4 before you respond. And then when you're finished, 5 we'll make sure you have an opportunity to respond. 6 Okay. Alderman Dudzik, go on. 7 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Because I would think 8 that your group, whether it was a block or a 9 half-block this way or that way, would be concerned 10 with a major employer such as the hotel being 11 concerned, I'm sure many of your members and your 12 clientele would have you -- would consider staying 13 at the hotel would have the same concerns whether 14 it's a strip club or a hip-hop club. And I just 15 have some problems with you coming forward today 16 when for years, we've been dealing with the Lady 17 Bug Club. 18 MR. CHERNOF: Sir, problems in the 19 downtown area generally always concern me, because 20 redevelopment of the area and revitalization of 21 downtown Milwaukee should be a vital concern to all 22 of us. 23 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Yes. 24 MR. CHERNOF: The area with which I am 25 charged is west of the river. 55 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I'll just tell 2 you -- are you finished? 3 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Yes, sir. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Personally, I don't 5 have any problem with your testimony. I think that 6 your answer makes perfect sense. You have certain 7 geographic boundaries that you follow, and there's, 8 you know, there's plenty of people that come down 9 here to testify on one particular matter, and they 10 don't testify on another matter. You know, either 11 they couldn't make it, or it's not within their 12 geographic boundaries. 13 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney Stephens. 15 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Thank you. A couple 16 of follow-up points. 17 Mr. Chernof, could you share with us your 18 background, if you will? 19 MR. CHERNOF: I'm a lawyer. 20 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: You mentioned that 21 you headed this organization, but could you fill us 22 in a little bit more with your background? 23 MR. CHERNOF: I'm a lawyer with Godfrey & 24 Kahn, specializing with real estate developments. 25 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And how long have you 56 1 been doing that? 2 MR. CHERNOF: Far too many years. I 3 graduated law school in '68. 4 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And you've been doing 5 that in Milwaukee this entire time? 6 MR. CHERNOF: Yes. 7 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Are there any other 8 qualifications that you have that the Committee 9 should have about your background? 10 MR. CHERNOF: I've always been interested 11 in city government and the betterment of Milwaukee. 12 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: You've testified that 13 you believed that this proposal would be a 14 detriment to the efforts by your organization to 15 bring families and specialty retail to the area. 16 Do you recall that testimony? 17 MR. CHERNOF: Yes, I do. 18 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Whether this 19 proposal, whether it's called a strip club or a 20 gentlemen's club, is that the only thing that would 21 be a detriment to families and specialty retail 22 coming to the area, or are there other things and 23 other uses and other kinds of development that 24 would likewise be a detriment? 25 MR. CHERNOF: Yes. Any use that would be 57 1 -- that would inhibit families from wanting to live 2 there or retailers or specialty retailers. And by 3 that, I mean, clothing stores, electronics, 4 retailers, all sorts of retailers from wanting to 5 locate in the area and to have a safe and friendly 6 environment. 7 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: What are those other 8 detrimental things, though, besides strip clubs, or 9 are there any -- 10 MR. CHERNOF: Frankly, loud bars. 11 Frankly, Lady Bug, if it was west of the river and 12 had the difficulties that it has apparently had, 13 would cause us to have enormous concern. 14 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Thank you. I don't 15 have anything further. 16 THE CLERK: Mr. Chairman. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Yeah. 18 Alderman Dudzik. 19 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: If I may? First of 20 all, I didn't realize I was dealing with an expert, 21 and I wish you would've filled me in on that 22 sooner. You must have a good sense of the -- and 23 I'm sure Alderman Bauman has a good sense, as well, 24 but what the vacancy rate is for retail and/or the 25 vacancy rate for residential properties in your 58 1 geographic area? 2 MR. CHERNOF: I don't know the exact 3 numbers. I know it's large for -- especially for 4 retail. We've got several empty blocks, actually. 5 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Because of your 6 background, I will take a guesstimate and put the 7 proper weight on it. 8 MR. CHERNOF: I can't tell you what the 9 percentages are. I know it's large. 10 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: 90 percent? 11 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: No. 12 MR. CHERNOF: I don't know. 13 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: 25 percent? 14 MR. CHERNOF: It's more than 25 percent. 15 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: And that's for retail? 16 MR. CHERNOF: And that's simply a guess. 17 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I appreciate that. Do 18 you want to venture a guess on the residential 19 side? 20 MR. CHERNOF: No, I don't. 21 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you for 23 your testimony. 24 Okay. Next speaker is Clayton Davis. 25 Please raise your right hand to be sworn in. 59 1 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 2 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 3 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 4 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 5 truth? 6 MR. DAVIS: Yes. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 8 please? 9 MR. DAVIS: Clayton Davis, 720 North Old 10 World Third. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Now, if 12 you're going to agree with the previous speakers, 13 just say you agree with the previous speakers and 14 only add any new testimony that's different. 15 MR. DAVIS: Well, I agree. But I have a 16 couple of new things. I actually live adjacent to 17 730 right now, and the noise is one of the concerns 18 for me. 19 I know I moved in when Rusty's was still 20 there, but it closed down or stopping functioning 21 shortly thereafter. And so the noise is one of my 22 concerns that will be there late at night. 23 My second concern is that I currently 24 live with my fiancé, who works later nights. She 25 gets home usually midnight, 2, sometimes. And 60 1 she's got to walk from the parking garage to the 2 apartment complex, and it's usually right by that 3 block, so I'm concerned for her safety and stuff. 4 And if this goes in, we'll probably have 5 to end up moving out. That's all. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 7 Committee? 8 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. How long 9 have you lived there? 10 MR. DAVIS: We moved in, in June. 11 June 1. 12 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any other 14 questions by Committee? If not, Attorney Whitcomb? 15 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: You express a very 16 valid concern regarding your fiancé, sir. Would it 17 provide you with any relief and your fiancé with 18 any relief that the practice that is used by this 19 applicant at his establishment at Silk on Silver 20 Spring is to walk entertainers and women to their 21 cars upon request? And provide you relief with 22 your fiancé and you knowing that at any time she 23 wanted to be walked to her car, that the house 24 managers at this location would so assist her, 25 would that provide you any comfort? 61 1 MR. DAVIS: It would provide a little, 2 but I know it's still someone that we don't know 3 just walking her to and from her car, so it's still 4 a concern. 5 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: They're professional, 6 and they're armed, and they're gentlemen. 7 No other questions. 8 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 10 Alderman Kovac. 11 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Just a question for 12 Mr. Whitcomb. You said that's a service you 13 provide for employees. Do you provide that service 14 for residents, as well? 15 MR. FERRARO: We provide it for any 16 customer and anyone that wants to be walked to 17 their cars. In this case, yes, we will provide it 18 if they request it, if walking within a reasonable 19 distance. 20 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: There are some 21 attendees at the Northwest Side Silk that stay at 22 the hotel just across 120 -- 100 -- what's the name 23 of that hotel? 24 MR. FERRARO: The Hampton Inn. 25 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: The Hampton Inn. And 62 1 they have been requested and been provided escort 2 service, if you will, to walk them back to the 3 hotel, which is about 300 yards from the facility. 4 MR. FERRARO: I will go on record to say, 5 too, that if anyone that lives in the building, if 6 they contacted us, and they park about a block or 7 two, we would make sure that one of our security 8 staff who are trained professionals would walk them 9 to their apartment. I would think they would be a 10 little bit safer. It would give them a little bit 11 more feeling of security. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Is that included in 13 your application that you submitted to the city? 14 MR. FERRARO: It hasn't. But I would add 15 that verbally. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac would 17 move to amend the application that you would 18 provide escort services from -- for patrons that 19 need help going to their vehicle. 20 MR. FERRARO: Correct. 21 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: We sort of looked at 22 that as more of a practice than a plan, but that is 23 absolutely fine. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: All right. Any 25 objections to that motion? There being no 63 1 objections, so ordered. 2 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chairman. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 4 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Did I hear you 5 correctly, that you're saying that the security is 6 armed? 7 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: There is one at Silk 8 on the Northwest Side, correct? 9 MR. FERRARO: Yes. 10 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: If this license is 11 granted, would the security also be armed? 12 MR. FERRARO: Security inside the 13 building is not armed, but we always have one guy 14 outside in a car patrolling out in the parking lot, 15 and also in the near couple blocks, and he is 16 armed. He's a hired third party. He has got all 17 the training and years of training to carry a 18 pistol. 19 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 20 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Good question. 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you for 22 your testimony. 23 Okay. The next speaker is Greg Schram. 24 Okay. And sir, are you going to be testifying 25 again? 64 1 MR. SCHRAM: Yes. You had called my name 2 out, so... 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What's your 4 name? 5 MR. BELANGER: Reggie Belanger. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Good. Okay. So 7 Greg, you can go to the microphone? 8 Before you start speaking, we've got -- 9 no. He's Reggie Belanger. 10 Megan Westra, are you here, Megan? And 11 the next person is Steve Left -- Loft -- Steve, are 12 you here? 13 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Yes. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Someone might 15 want to get Steve. Okay. Why don't you grab a 16 seat in the first row here? 17 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 18 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 19 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 20 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 21 truth? 22 MR. SCHRAM: Yes. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 24 please? 25 MR. SCHRAM: Greg Schram, 720 North Old 65 1 World Third. I'd also like to add that I work at 2 310 West Wisconsin Avenue, which is the Reuss Plaza 3 across the street from my residence. 4 THE COURT REPORTER: Can he spell his 5 last name, please? 6 MR. SCHRAM: S-C-H-R-A-M, as in Michael. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What's your 8 testimony? 9 MR. SCHRAM: I'm opposed to the strip 10 club. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Do you agree with 12 the previous testimony? 13 MR. SCHRAM: I do. But I also have -- I 14 recently moved here from New Orleans, and, you 15 know, with the French Quarter. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Right. 17 MR. SCHRAM: You live in an area where 18 there is residential areas mixed with strip clubs, 19 and I will tell you that with the French Quarter by 20 there, you're never comfortable -- I mean, you're 21 never comfortable around a strip club when you're 22 by your house. 23 So, I mean, I don't know about you guys, 24 I don't want to live by one. I'm sure you wouldn't 25 want to either. And I know with my employer, you 66 1 know, I work for the federal government. We -- you 2 know, I work with -- the agency that I work for 3 provides services for older individuals. I can 4 guarantee you that they would not be comfortable 5 coming around there to our office if the strip club 6 is open. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 8 Committee? 9 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 11 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Your office hours of 12 operation are? 13 MR. SCHRAM: 9:00 a.m. to 3:30. I'm not 14 sure what the hours would be for the Silk, so they 15 may be there -- may be overlapping hours. 16 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I don't have it at my 17 fingertips, but I'm fairly confident it's a 18 late-night operation. But. Okay. Thank you. 19 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Your desire not to live 22 near a strip club, would that be mitigated or 23 changed by the fact that armed security guards 24 would walk you to your car upon request? 25 MR. SCHRAM: No. 67 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. No further 2 questions? 3 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: I'm just curious, could 4 I ask? 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Bauman. 6 Sure. 7 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: How long did you live 8 in New Orleans? 9 MR. SCHRAM: Four years. 10 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Why is no one 11 comfortable living near a strip club in the French 12 Quarter? 13 MR. SCHRAM: It's just the -- it's just 14 the atmosphere. There's a certain crowd that you 15 tend to associate with a strip club, you know, that 16 you don't necessarily want around where you live. 17 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Okay. Thanks. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney Whitcomb? 19 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No questions. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Next speaker 21 is Reggie Belanger or Belanger? 22 MR. BELANGER: Belanger. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: And you already were 24 sworn in before, so you don't have to be sworn in 25 again. 68 1 MR. BELANGER: I'm here today, I'm acting 2 as agent for ownership of the Grand Wisconsin, 3 which is located at 720 West Wisconsin. Ownership 4 is opposed to the issuance of the license as to the 5 Silk Night Club or any other strip club that might 6 come up in the future. 7 I'm not really here to debate whether I 8 agree or disagree with the business. I have not 9 been to the Silk. I don't know how they operate. 10 I'm not here to voice an opinion. But, in my 11 opinion, if the strip club license, you know, were 12 to be granted, it should be designated in another 13 part of the city. A part of the city where it 14 could be more compatible, and it wouldn't affect 15 the residential. It wouldn't affect the 16 businesses. I believe a strip club is incompatible 17 with residential and businesses in this area. 18 I've heard talk about the other Silk Club 19 out on Silver Spring, and it is isolated. It's 20 away from residential. I believe the use is close 21 by Harley Davidson, so I don't think it's a good 22 comparison. 23 An adult strip club next to Grand 24 Wisconsin is a 12-story, 180-unit apartment 25 complex. It's the equivalent of a 180-family 69 1 subdivision. You wouldn't want to put a strip club 2 in the middle of a subdivision. And we shouldn't 3 be treated because our building is vertical, any 4 different. In our building, we have 66 percent of 5 our population is female. In the residential 6 apartment business to be successful, you really 7 need to be at about 60 percent female to have an 8 occupancy level that is economically viable. 9 Twelve percent of our residents are 10 students at the building. Having Silk or any other 11 strip club, you know, would have a negative impact. 12 We believe we would lose all of our college 13 students and a large percentage of our female 14 population and have difficulty getting anyone to 15 fill. 16 We believe the vacancies will increase, 17 which will in turn affect the rent, which will in 18 turn have a negative impact on the value. I heard 19 Mr. Chernof talk about revitalization. I think the 20 area has actually gone through some revitalization. 21 I mean, the Grand Wisconsin was a revitalization. 22 It's close to a $10 million high rise. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Sir, we're starting 24 to go over some territory that was already covered. 25 Can you please just share with the Committee -- 70 1 MR. BELANGER: I'm getting to the end. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 3 MR. BELANGER: I think it's important to 4 set up that there is $100 million worth of real 5 estate in the area that will be affected. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Go ahead. 7 MR. BELANGER: The city needs to take a 8 position and put out there to businesses and 9 investors and residents that it's not going to 10 allow this. 11 I don't know, you know, this is the 12 second or third time we're coming before you. And 13 I think it's important that, you know, there is a 14 unanimous vote against this, so we send a message. 15 Lastly, Mr. Chernof was asked a question, 16 do you have any evidence that, you know, is there 17 any evidence that values would decrease? I do, in 18 fact, have a copy of -- I engaged an independent 19 license appraiser in the State of Wisconsin to give 20 me his opinion of what the effect would be to 21 values. So I have that report I'd like to submit 22 to the Committee. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Mm-hmm. Okay. Why 24 don't you just -- Ms. Elmer will take that. 25 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Mr. Chairman, if 71 1 you're going to accept that report, I would 2 respectfully request that the Committee also accept 3 another report on the impact of gentlemen's clubs 4 on real estate values that was tendered to the 5 Committee two years ago. We'll re-tender it here, 6 as well. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. So 8 Alderman Perez will move to enter both documents 9 into the record -- 10 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Do you want more? 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: -- there being no 12 objections, so ordered. 13 Excuse me? 14 MR. FERRARO: We have copies for 15 everyone. Do you want them? 16 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: We'll take them all. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Sure. Okay. Is -- 18 that's all, sir? 19 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: There's more. 20 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair, 21 presumably, it will be a part of their presentation 22 when it's the applicant's turn to discuss their 23 proposal. If you could have a brief summary of 24 what he's giving us or what its conclusions were. 25 MR. BELANGER: Well, in a nutshell, the 72 1 conclusion is that a strip club would have a 2 negative impact on real estate values in the area. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 4 MR. BELANGER: It did not specifically 5 talk about percentages or the dollar amounts. It 6 was not the intent to quantify that. But the 7 effect, obviously, and income-producing properties, 8 which the Grand Wisconsin is, our concern is the 9 vacancy we've already heard testimony from 10 residents that they would move out. 11 And we're not only concerned with 12 existing residents moving out. We're concerned 13 with trying to get the new residents to move in. 14 With the strip club and vacancy drops, and pretty 15 soon you're adjusting your rent to try to motivate 16 people, which in turn adjusts value. 17 I don't think you -- if we were trying to 18 sell this property and a buyer hired an appraiser, 19 he would point out the great attributes of having 20 Silk Night Club next door. 21 I think to the contrary; it would have a 22 negative impact for any future buyer, and, 23 ultimately, that's how you value real estate. I 24 think it's going to affect the assessed value 25 because our values decrease. 73 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any further 2 questions? 3 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 5 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Sir, you mentioned a 6 statistic of about 60 percent of your -- well, you 7 actually said 66 of your tenants are female, and a 8 desirable number in the real estate market is 9 60 percent. Why is that? 10 MR. BELANGER: Well, the population 11 trends of women -- women make the decisions, they 12 tend to rent more apartments, and historically -- 13 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: You just hit the nail 14 on the head in my house. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Be careful what you 16 say. We don't want you to get in trouble. 17 MR. BELANGER: It's a historic number 18 that you talk to the other real estate experts, if 19 we look -- and we look at all our properties that 20 we manage, if you fall under 60 percent, you're 21 missing a segment of a population. So a comfort 22 level is 60 percent, which puts you in the market, 23 as they could say. 24 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: It's just an 25 interesting statistic. I've never heard it before. 74 1 Thank you. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 3 Attorney Whitcomb? 4 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Do you have any 5 empirical data to substantiate your belief that a 6 gentlemen's club would have an adverse impact on 7 retail and residential? 8 MR. BELANGER: I'm not sure how to answer 9 that question. I've been in this business for -- 10 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Truthfully. 11 MR. BELANGER: -- 35 years, and I've been 12 on the binding side of real estate. I've been 13 involved in fighting a strip club in Clear Lake, 14 Texas, where it was rejected near a property we 15 own. I just believe it's going to have a negative 16 impact. 17 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Do you own any 18 property in the neighborhood of a gentlemen's club? 19 MR. BELANGER: I represent an owner right 20 now that's fighting one. 21 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: What do you mean 22 "fighting one"? No. That wasn't my question. 23 Do you own property -- I guess your 24 company owns property adjacent to an existing 25 gentlemen's club. 75 1 MR. BELANGER: No, we don't. 2 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: You do not have any 3 empirical or personal knowledge that the existence 4 of a gentlemen's club has an adverse impact on your 5 property? 6 MR. BELANGER: No. And that's why I got 7 the services of a licensed operator to 8 independently give me his opinion. 9 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: You testified that, 10 even though it's your belief that the location on 11 Old World Third Street was not proper for a 12 gentlemen's club, it may be proper at another 13 location downtown. Could you identify, generally, 14 what area that would be? 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Did you say downtown 16 or some other area? 17 MR. BELANGER: No. I said some other 18 area. I didn't say "downtown." 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Yeah. He didn't say 20 "downtown." 21 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Then I'll ask you, is 22 there any general area of downtown Milwaukee? 23 MR. BELANGER: I can't think of that 24 because it would have to be an area that wasn't 25 residential. 76 1 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Residential; how far 2 or how close? 3 MR. BELANGER: You know, I'd be guessing. 4 Just depends on the geographic layout of a 5 particular location. For instance, the Silver 6 Spring, I don't know that there is a -- within a 7 half-mile that there is a residential unit. I 8 looked -- I drove out to it. I drove around. It's 9 more industrial and manufacturing, light 10 industrial. 11 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Do you have the same 12 objections to taverns in your area? 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Yeah. 14 MR. BELANGER: For noise and loitering, 15 you know, we would look at what type of facility. 16 It doesn't have the same impact as a strip club. 17 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Can you identify any 18 strip clubs in Milwaukee standing here today, 19 existing strip clubs? 20 MR. BELANGER: I can't think of any. 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney Whitcomb, 22 what's the relevancy of that question? 23 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: The relevancy is to 24 inquire as to whether or not the existence of an 25 existing strip club has an adverse impact on 77 1 adjoining property when that existing strip club is 2 near residences and retail. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: You know, answer the 4 question, but it sounds like we're really starting 5 to go around in circles here, Counsel. 6 MR. BELANGER: I know there's others. I 7 don't know their names. I don't frequent them, so 8 I don't know. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. That's it. 10 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Thank you. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you for 12 your testimony. 13 THE COURT REPORTER: Can I get his last 14 name, please, spell the last name? 15 MR. BELANGER: B-E-L-A-N-G-E-R. 16 THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Next speaker 18 is Megan Westra. Megan Westra. 19 MS. WESTRA: Megan Westra, 2528 -- 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Wait. We have to 21 swear you in. 22 THE CLERK: We have to swear you in, 23 ma'am. 24 MS. WESTRA: Oh. 25 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 78 1 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 2 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 3 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 4 truth? 5 MS. WESTRA: I do. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 7 please? 8 MS. WESTRA: Megan Westra. 2528 North 9 45th Street. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Now, again, 11 if you agree with the previous speakers, say that 12 you agree and only add any additional information 13 that hasn't been addressed. 14 MS. WESTRA: I do agree. I would like to 15 bring this in a slightly different direction, as 16 well, though. I serve as a pastor at the 17 Transformation City Church, and I would like to 18 address the Council as far as what this has as a 19 greater impact to the City of Milwaukee. 20 This is not just another business that 21 we're determining if there is a license or not. 22 This invites a culture into our city that is 23 already ravaging our city, and it further opens the 24 door. 25 I would like to address the Council with 79 1 a quote from the Attorney General in Texas. It 2 says, "Given the very nature of their enterprise, 3 sexually oriented businesses foster and facilitate 4 an environment that is inherently ripe for human 5 trafficking." 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Ma'am, what 7 we want is direct, first-hand testimony from 8 yourself. 9 MS. WESTRA: I believe that in the City 10 of Milwaukee where there is already an enormous 11 human trafficking problem, specifically with 12 minors, that the opening of an additional strip 13 club would only increase that problem and put our 14 children at further risk. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Okay. Any 16 questions by Committee? Okay. Attorney Whitcomb? 17 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No questions. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you for your 19 testimony, ma'am. Okay. 20 Next speaker is Steve Loft, and Mr. Loft 21 before you proceed, we need Steve 22 Miraclay (phonetic) -- Miraclay here? Okay. 23 Please grab a seat in the front row, 24 Scott Mcinson (phonetic) -- Scott Mcinson. 25 MR. MCINTOSH: McIntosh. 80 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: McIntosh. On West 2 Street? Okay. Please grab a seat in the front. 3 And we are going to take Joe Weerik. Joe Weerik. 4 Okay. Grab a seat in the front row. Okay. 5 Mr. Looft, please raise your right hand. 6 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 7 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 8 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 9 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 10 truth? 11 MR. LOOFT: I do. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 13 please? 14 MR. LOOFT: Steve Looft, L-O-O-F-T, 600 15 East Wells Street. I am the Economic Development 16 Director for BID 21. 17 BID 21 and the Economic Development Board 18 stand in opposition of this use. A great component 19 of our economic development effort downtown has 20 been a review of pure cities. The secret and the 21 success to most of the great cities in the country 22 and their urban renewal is a clean, safe, and 23 attractive place. And the effects of this type of 24 entertainment use are inconsistent with those 25 pillars. 81 1 We recently retained Progressive Urban 2 Management of the Denver Experts in Urban Renewal 3 and Downtown Renovation. And part of their 4 services were to conduct an interview where we 5 establish groups from hospitality, residential, 6 office, civic, cultural, and political 7 environments. And nowhere in those focus groups 8 did the applicant's use come in as a void or a 9 missing ingredient to downtown. What their 10 research validated for us is, in the last ten 11 years, the population growth downtown has been 12 27 percent. The growth in households has been 13 25 percent. And in the last decade, there's been 14 over $2 million -- $2 billion dollars of new 15 investment in the bid. 16 What's happening around the country, and 17 I believe it was on October 8, CNBC, Sam Zell, one 18 of the probably wealthiest men in the country and 19 certainly a significant older residential member of 20 real estate, said there is a migration of all the 21 young people to 24/7 active downtowns. That's 22 where they want to live, work, and play. 23 And our vision is to provide that type of 24 environment in Milwaukee and have a vision for 25 Milwaukee in 2030 and '35 that will retain the 82 1 great employees and the students to live and enjoy 2 downtown. And back to the point, so we feel that 3 secondary effects of this kind of use are 4 inconsistent with that vision. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 6 Committee? Question by Attorney Whitcomb? 7 Okay. Thank you for your testimony. 8 Next speaker is Steve Miraclay. Please 9 raise your right hand to be sworn in. 10 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 11 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 12 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 13 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 14 truth? 15 MR. MIRACLE: I do. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 17 please? 18 MR. MIRACLE: My name is Steve Miracle. 19 Last name is spelled M-I-R-A-C-L-E. I live at 720 20 North Old World Third Street. 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 22 MR. MIRACLE: I'm here today in 23 opposition. I don't have a whole lot else to add 24 other than the fact that everything that was posted 25 in the notice was posted in our building is 83 1 100 percent true. It's a real concern for almost 2 every resident there, safety concerns. 3 My girlfriend and I live on the side of 4 the building that is adjacent to the proposed strip 5 club location. And even when it was Rusty's, it 6 was extremely loud, and you could hear bass until 7 2:30 in the morning. And it was very difficult to 8 deal with that. 9 And I'd also just like to ask for the 10 applicant and applicant's attorneys as those that 11 are in favor if they would like to be contractually 12 obligated to live next to a strip club. 13 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chair. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 15 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I take it from your 16 comments about Rusty's that you are not one of the 17 individuals that was referred to by the earlier 18 individual testifying because you're not interested 19 in working, living, and playing downtown 24/7. So 20 you're not interested in being near a bar or 21 another entertainment venue -- put aside the strip 22 club for a minute. You object to bars and anything 23 that would bring crowds into your neighborhood? 24 MR. MIRACLE: When we moved into the 25 building, Rusty's wasn't operating at the time. So 84 1 I didn't choose to live next to a loud bar. I 2 mean, I like living downtown where there's -- I can 3 go to that in a near proximity. Maybe I can walk, 4 and I don't have to drive -- 5 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Just not on your block. 6 MR. MIRACLE: -- and I just don't want to 7 live right next to it. 8 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Just not on your block. 9 MR. MIRACLE: Yes, sir. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 11 Attorney Whitcomb? 12 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No, sir. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Next speaker is 14 Scott Meekithin (phonetic). Please raise your 15 right hand -- well, I guess. 16 MR. MCINTOSH: I have to wear this sling. 17 If my wife sees me without it, she'll kill me. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Never come across 19 this one in all the years. How do you deal? 20 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 21 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 22 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 23 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 24 truth? 25 MR. MCINTOSH: Absolutely. 85 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What's your 2 name and address? 3 MR. MCINTOSH: My name is Scott McIntosh. 4 My address is 5717 West Wells Street in Wauwatosa. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Good. What 6 is your testimony? 7 MR. MCINTOSH: I am opposed, and I agree 8 with a great deal of testimony that's here today. 9 And a different concern of mine is one that Megan 10 Westra raised, and that would be the propensity of 11 these kinds of establishments to perpetuate and 12 draw kids into human trafficking. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 14 Committee? Questions by Attorney Whitcomb? 15 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No questions. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you, sir. 17 Next speaker is Joe Weirick. And before 18 you begin, Mr. Weerik, Ben Westra. Are you here, 19 Mr. Ben Westra? Grab a seat in the front row. 20 Cordelia Bryant. Please grab a seat in the front 21 row. Allison Eggers? Great. Okay. 22 Please raise your right hand, sir. 23 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 24 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 25 Wisconsin that the testimony you are about to give 86 1 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 2 truth? 3 MR. WEIRICK: I do. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 5 please? 6 MR. WEIRICK: My name is Joe Weirick, 7 that's W-E-I-R-I-C-K. My address is 310 West 8 Wisconsin Avenue. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What's your 10 testimony? 11 MR. WEIRICK: I agree with all of those 12 speaking before me and Steve Chernof. I'm a member 13 of the WAMDC Group and among other groups 14 interested in the downtown including the Westown 15 Association, BID 21, and BID 15. I'm an active 16 member on the board there. 17 I object to the applications in the 18 strongest possible terms. I represent the owners 19 of 310 West Wisconsin Avenue, also known as the 20 Reuss Federal Plaza. The building is privately 21 owned and always has been, for those that are not 22 familiar with the ownership of the property. The 23 property spans the entire street front from 24 Wisconsin Avenue to Wells on the west side to Old 25 World Third Street. On the southern side is our 87 1 Plaza area, and on the northern half of the block 2 fronting the 730 in North Old World Street location 3 is the parking structure. 4 Our main entrance to our parking 5 structure is almost directly across from what would 6 be the entrance to the strip club. We have -- we 7 have -- the property is 580,000 square feet of 8 space in it. So it is larger than the Grand 9 Avenue. It is a little more than half the size of 10 the US Bank Tower. It is, by far, the largest 11 property in that area submarket. 12 Our company manages over 3 million square 13 feet of office and retail space in 12 states. And 14 so we are firmly in the real estate business. I've 15 been in the real estate business for 25 years. 16 At 310 West Wisconsin Avenue, we have 17 continually invested in the property. We became 18 involved in 2004. We've invested many millions 19 including millions to attract the Capital Grille, 20 ESPN Studios, and this year, we moved in the North 21 American headquarters of a Finnish manufacturing 22 company that adds prominent frontage on the east 23 side of our building facing east towards 720 Old 24 World Street -- Old World Third Street. 25 They -- this company brings in customers 88 1 and employees from around North America and 2 sometimes globally. And this is not, from our 3 ownership's perspective, the kind of environment 4 essentially, right out the window, that we would 5 like to have for our tenants. 6 I'm also speaking from my direct 7 experience on West Wisconsin Avenue and East 8 Wisconsin Avenue. I've been involved with seven 9 buildings over the years from Van Buren to 4th 10 Street, all on Wisconsin Avenue in the business of 11 attracting and retraining office space users and 12 retailers. 13 In '99, I formed a partnership with a 14 business associate for the last successful 15 retaining of Grand Avenue. We attracted tenants 16 such as Old Navy, Linens 'n Things, TJ Maxx, Famous 17 Footwear, and more. Unfortunately, they were not 18 supported in the manner that their businesses 19 needed to sustain themselves. 20 I object on the basis that the proposed 21 use for the location is highly incompatible with 22 our business, the business of attracting tenants to 23 our building who are bringing in guests and 24 visitors regularly and have fairly high pace. 25 The opening of the -- this strip club 89 1 would, without question, in our opinion, cause us 2 to lose existing tenants. And when new tenants -- 3 considering our building faces the prospect of 4 having a strip club across the street, they'll 5 choose to office elsewhere or locate elsewhere. 6 And so that detrimental impact expands 7 well beyond the first floor. We do have vacant 8 retail space directly across -- it's been vacant a 9 long time. But our persistence, with respect to 10 the river, has paid off in our attraction because 11 as I mentioned earlier, ESPN Studios and Capital 12 Grille. 13 Our property, given its size and the 14 proximity to the strip club location, probably has 15 the most to lose. Our tenants would confront the 16 strip club, which would open its doors at 17 11:00 a.m. day in and day out and would operate 18 well into the night, of course. 19 Our operating costs would go up. We 20 would be compelled to install new cameras to 21 protect the east side of our property. We could 22 also add security patrols. 23 I've read the application. The 24 application indicates that the applicant would have 25 six to eight security guards, one of whom is armed, 90 1 and 48 security cameras to protect the 7,000-square 2 foot space. 3 We have almost a city block, almost 4 600,000-square feet, about a thousand visitors in 5 and out. We have less than half that kind of 6 security in place, and our security is not armed. 7 We work to continually improve, so in 8 terms of investment in the neighborhood, in the 9 last six months we've joined the Mayor's Better 10 Buildings Sustainability Effort to invest in saving 11 energy in the property. 12 So we have invested considerably, and we 13 urge you to deny the application, which we believe 14 would signal giving up on the neighborhood. We're 15 not prepared to give up on the neighborhood. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 17 Committee? 18 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 20 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Did I just hear you 21 right, that the Reuss Federal Building has no armed 22 security at it? 23 MR. WEIRICK: That's correct. 24 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: And you have only about 25 20 cameras on the entire property? 91 1 MR. WEIRICK: That's correct. 2 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: That's amazing. Thank 3 you. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 5 Attorney Whitcomb? 6 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you for 8 your testimony. 9 MR. WEIRICK: Next speaker is Ben Westra. 10 Ben Westra. Please raise your right hand and be 11 sworn in. 12 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 13 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 14 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 15 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 16 truth? 17 MR. WESTRA: Yes, I do. My name is 18 Benjamin Westra. I'm a resident at 2528 North 45th 19 Street, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I'm also a 20 children's pastor and mentor coordinator for 21 Transformation City Church. 22 And I oppose the building of the strip 23 club and the licenses thereof. A lot of times in 24 terms of mentoring children and having primarily 25 under-resourced children from the City of Milwaukee 92 1 who I get mentors for, a lot of kids like to go 2 downtown. It's a place that's thriving compared to 3 where many of them live. It's typically a little 4 bit safer than where they live, and they like to 5 walk around in that area. I've actually brought a 6 young boy who I mentor to the Grand Avenue 7 apartments to pick up another one of my friends we 8 were going to go play basketball with. 9 And that's something I enjoy doing and 10 something I could see myself doing again. And I 11 don't want to have to answer the question of what 12 is that place across the street, and what is going 13 on there to an 11-year-old boy. 14 I don't think this is the appropriate 15 place for a strip club. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Okay. 17 Questions from Committee? Questions from 18 Attorney Whitcomb? 19 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No questions. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 21 Cordelia Bryant? And before Ms. Bryant gets sworn 22 in, Allison Eggers, is she here? You're 23 Allison Eggers. And then we're looking at 24 Ms. Debby Tomczyk. 25 Please grab a seat in the front row. 93 1 Angela Domiani, please grab a seat in the front 2 row. Okay. 3 Please raise your right hand to be sworn 4 in. 5 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 6 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 7 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 8 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 9 truth? 10 MS. BRYANT: Yes. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address? 12 MS. BRYANT: My name is Cordelia Bryant. 13 I reside at 3385 North 45th Street. Up until a few 14 days ago, I was the executive director of African 15 World Festival, whose offices are located in Grand 16 Avenue Mall. 17 And I am also currently a substitute 18 teacher for Milwaukee Public Schools, and I work a 19 couple of blocks away from the location site. I am 20 here today to express my sincere and deep 21 opposition to a license being granted to Silk. 22 And in addition to the many reasons cited 23 by folks that have gone before me, one of the 24 things that I also would like to bring up is the 25 concept of over-saturation. 94 1 There was a question asked of one of the 2 folks that was up here about what other strip 3 locations exist in the city. A Google search 4 demonstrates that there are 13 in the Milwaukee 5 area or the greater Milwaukee area, all of which 6 are only 11 miles away from the proposed location 7 site. In fact, seven strip clubs are only five 8 miles away from the current location site. And so 9 when you begin to talk about quality of life, 10 attracting business, retaining business, having 11 folks feel safe, it is interesting to me that we 12 have ignored the fact that we are potentially 13 becoming -- and I don't look to necessarily use the 14 term -- but a dumping ground. 15 It is not something I think it conducive 16 to the growth of the City of Milwaukee, who can 17 consistently balance positions on being safe. 18 Perceptions do become reality. And when you talk 19 about the fact that within five miles of that 20 location, there are already seven strip clubs, I 21 think that that is something that the folks sitting 22 around this Committee and the Common Council should 23 take into consideration. 24 So I'll let other folks address other 25 issues. But for me, that is one of the major 95 1 issues; the concept of oversaturation. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Hold on. 3 Questions by Committee? Questions by 4 Attorney Whitcomb? 5 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Ms. Bryant, correct? 6 MS. BRYANT: Yes. Yes. 7 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Do you have any -- 8 you said that there are seven clubs, strip clubs, 9 within five miles of downtown Milwaukee? 10 MS. BRYANT: Yes. 11 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Are you familiar with 12 those locations, at all? 13 MS. BRYANT: I don't have that exact 14 address, and I do -- 15 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Are you personally 16 familiar with them? 17 MS. BRYANT: I'm familiar with where some 18 of them are. 19 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Are you aware of any 20 problems that those establishments have had in 21 their neighborhoods? 22 MS. BRYANT: I'm not in the ability, at 23 this point, to say that I'm aware of problems. One 24 of them is the Cheetah Club. I know there have 25 been robberies outside of the club. So I know 96 1 there are incidents that have occurred. 2 But specific incidents, no, I'm not 3 aware. But whether there are incidents or not, I 4 do think that we have to protect ourselves from 5 over-saturation. 6 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Thank you. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Next speaker 8 is Allison Eggers. 9 Please raise your right hand to be sworn 10 in. 11 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 12 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 13 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 14 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 15 truth? 16 MS. EGGERS: Yes, I do. My name is 17 Allison Eggers. I am a resident of 720 North Old 18 World Third Street. And I agree with a lot of the 19 opposition. But I just want to speak more 20 personally to how it's going to affect my living 21 next door. 22 One of my biggest issues is there is an 23 alleyway that's located directly between the Grand 24 Wisconsin at 720 and the proposed location. I have 25 three windows in my apartment; one in the bedroom, 97 1 and two in the living room that face directly into 2 that alleyway. So one of my biggest concerns is 3 with how they're going to be directing overflow 4 coming out of the building. If that would be 5 directed down the alleyway, I think that would be a 6 significant noise issue with my apartment facing 7 that alleyway. 8 I also have a small dog that I take out 9 five, six, seven times a day to go to the bathroom. 10 In the -- there is a small backyard behind the 11 building that I use. I go through that alleyway 12 with my dog, and I'm a little nervous about, you 13 know, my dog's safety, as well. And, you know, 14 people coming up and interacting with my dog. 15 My other major issue is another resident 16 spoke about his fiancé coming home late from work 17 and having to park and walk past the strip club in 18 order to get to the building. I have a similar 19 issue. I park in the Hyatt hotel ramp on West 20 Wells Street. I work later in the evenings, and I 21 come home at about 11:00 at night, and I just 22 personally am a little uncomfortable with the idea 23 of having to every night have to walk home from the 24 parking lot to my apartment building. 25 I know that the applicant mentioned 98 1 offering an escort -- an armed escort from the 2 strip club location to your parking, but I don't 3 believe that my issue -- my issue would be, unless 4 they're offering to walk me from my parking ramp 5 every night after work to my building, that's kind 6 of irrelevant. 7 So for me, that's definitely a concern, 8 and, you know, I just want to -- I really like 9 where I live right now. And I don't want to move. 10 But, unfortunately, personally, for me just to feel 11 comfortable with my living situation, I think I 12 would feel that I needed to move if this was 13 opening up next door. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 15 Committee? 16 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 18 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Ma'am, just because I'm 19 not familiar with the apartment building that you 20 live in, what floor do you live on? 21 MS. EGGERS: I live on the sixth floor. 22 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: So that would be a 23 pretty significant angle to look down at the alley? 24 MS. EGGERS: Yeah. I look down in the 25 alley. 99 1 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Have you ever looked 2 down in the alleyway? 3 MS. EGGERS: Yes. 4 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Can you tell me what 5 you've seen? 6 MS. EGGERS: Sometimes there's cars 7 parked, so sometimes I see cars parked there. When 8 Rusty's was there, I had looked down and seen -- 9 I'm assuming people that had been in the bar 10 outside in the alleyway smoking and talking. 11 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Is that alley lit? 12 MS. EGGERS: Huh? 13 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Is that alley lit? 14 MS. EGGERS: I don't believe so. I don't 15 think there's any lighting. I think it's just 16 lighting from the apartment building. 17 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any further 19 questions from Committee? If not, 20 Attorney Whitcomb? 21 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No, Mr. Chair. But 22 I'd like to ask the indulgence of the Committee and 23 people in attendance after they testify. There is 24 a plan of operation. There seems to be a 25 misapprehension of what this facility is going to 100 1 look like and how it is going to operate. And this 2 is in the packet. There are extra copies. We've 3 put them on the desk outside in the hall, and the 4 witnesses, after they testify, they can take a 5 copy. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you for 7 your testimony. Ms. Tomczyk, before we swear you 8 in, Chuck Allison, Chuck Allison, are you here? 9 And we need Mark Hollaar. Mark Hollaar, please 10 grab a seat in the front row. And then -- okay. 11 Ms. Tomczyk, please raise your right 12 hand. 13 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 14 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 15 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 16 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 17 truth? 18 MS. TOMCZYK: I do. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address 20 please? 21 MS. TOMCZYK: My name is Debby Tomczyk, 22 T-O-M-C-Z-Y-K, 1000 North Water Street. I'm an 23 attorney at Reinhart Boerner, R-E-I-N-H-A-R-T, 24 B-O-E-R-N-E-R. And we are the legal counsel for 25 BID 21. 101 1 And I've been asked to appear today to 2 address some of the legal aspects of the state of 3 law and the application before you. Obviously, by 4 your behavior today and your behavior throughout 5 the Committee is well versed in how the law applies 6 to this application, but I've just been asked to 7 address that for the record. 8 There's been confusion even this morning 9 in the Journal Sentinel about what the status of 10 the law is. But this Council -- this Committee and 11 Council clearly has ample legal authority to reject 12 this application, and we urge you to do so. 13 The law has not changed since the Council 14 turned down a very similar application from this 15 exact same applicant at this exact location. In 16 fact, in a recent Eastern District Court Case, 17 Judge Adelman largely upheld the 2010 Council 18 denial license at the same location. 19 They cited favorably the Seventh Circuit 20 decision, the Blue Canary, for the proposition that 21 a city is permitted to consider the secondary 22 effects of the entertainment such as noise, safety, 23 parking, and traffic problems, and the general 24 incompatibility of the entertainment with the 25 normal activity of the neighborhood when making its 102 1 decisions. 2 You've heard that a lot from the 3 neighbors, both residential and office neighbors 4 and retail neighbors today. The case goes on to 5 cite Blue Canary, "Neighborhood testimony is 6 appropriate evidence concerning the secondary 7 effects of the proposed form of tavern 8 entertainment." 9 And I understand that may again have been 10 upheld as recently as this morning or yesterday by 11 Wisconsin Supreme Court. So you clearly have the 12 discretion that you've exercised so diligently and 13 wisely in the past to take this action to turn down 14 this license application. 15 Judge Adelman then cited 16 Alderman Bauman's testimony, and Alderman Bauman 17 stated very eloquently, "There is an inherent 18 conflict between trying to generate retail and 19 commercial with a gentlemen's club. Just look at 20 the economics of it. They are somewhat different 21 markets. They're looking for different things by 22 their very definition, and you are not going to put 23 an American Girls store next to a gentlemen's club. 24 They're conflicting markets." Those words ring 25 true just today -- not my words, Alderman Bauman's 103 1 words. He said it much better than I could. 2 Contrary to the recent press articles, 3 there was only a minor aspect of the 2010 Eastern 4 District case that Silk won. Judge Adelman upheld 5 that the city may be liable for damages if Silk can 6 prove that it lost revenue of a theater operating 7 without alcohol for an 18-month period, roughly. 8 Nothing's changed since those decisions 9 have been made, and, again, the Council has ample 10 authority to turn down this license before you. We 11 do have some questions about the application that's 12 before you. 13 And Alderwoman Coggs mentioned the 14 question about armed security. I think they have a 15 number of security, and armed security is quizzical 16 to us. They cite that their sales will be 17 generated 30 percent from alcohol, 5 percent from 18 food, 35 percent from entertainment, 30 percent 19 from other -- we don't know what that means. 20 And their job estimates have been all 21 over the board. Now, they're estimating 50 staff 22 employees and 100-plus independently contracted 23 dancers. We're not sure what that means, either. 24 And those are the other aspects of the plan that 25 raise questions and concerns again. 104 1 The only conditions that have changed 2 since this Committee and the Council turned down 3 these applications before is that there has been 4 even more investment in West Wisconsin Avenue. 5 You've heard it from Steve Chernof, the WAM Group, 6 and other representatives of divisions in this 7 community. The city and the bid parties to provide 8 white box grants to incentivize retail in the area. 9 The downtown visitor and newcomer center has been 10 opened just down the road. Office Max created its 11 first business solution center here. And the 12 Fairfield Inn opened just two doors down. 13 So again, we think obviously the Council 14 has discretion to exercise in turning this license 15 down, which is what we ask you to do; that same 16 thing again just as you did before. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 18 Committee? Questions by Attorney Whitcomb? 19 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What we're 21 going to do is -- 22 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. 23 MR. FERRARO: Didn't she want to ask me 24 questions? 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No. This is not -- 105 1 this is a chance for you to ask her questions. You 2 can address her questions later in the meeting. 3 What we're going to do right now is we 4 have a -- 5 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair, before we 6 release the witness, may I ask a question? 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Sure. Go ahead. 8 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Ms. Tomczyk, you 9 indicated earlier in your testimony that you 10 reviewed the applicant's plan of operation in this 11 case? 12 MS. TOMCZYK: I did. 13 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And can you, for the 14 benefit of the Committee and for the benefit of the 15 record, can you explain a little bit about your 16 particular professional background when reviewing 17 that plan of operation and how that -- your 18 background related to that, looking at that 19 document? 20 MS. TOMCZYK: As I mentioned, I am an 21 attorney at Reinhart Boerner. I routinely 22 represent other retailers seeking licenses for 23 traditional establishments, customarily restaurants 24 or other retail grocery-type establishments. So I 25 have both prepared and reviewed those types of 106 1 applications, both Class A and Class B-type of 2 liquor applications in the past. 3 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Thank you. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What we're 5 going to do right now is our court reporter -- 6 ATTORNEY OLSON: I have a question. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: You have a question. 8 ATTORNEY OLSON: Are you familiar with 9 both of Judge Adelman's decisions on summary 10 judgment in the -- 11 MS. TOMCZYK: Yes. 12 ATTORNEY OLSON: -- current case? 13 So you're aware that he declared that the 14 theater licenses deemed unconstitutional in the 15 previous -- 16 MS. TOMCZYK: As applied, I believe -- 17 ATTORNEY OLSON: -- as applied in the 18 previous incarnation of public entertainment permit 19 unconstitutional as it would apply to a club 20 without an alcohol license, correct, that's the 21 fair case? 22 MS. TOMCZYK: As applied. And I believe 23 the burden of damages is on you and your applicant. 24 ATTORNEY OLSON: That's right. And we 25 have a pending case for damages that's moving along 107 1 toward trial, correct? 2 MS. TOMCZYK: That's my understanding, 3 but I'm not personally involved in the case. 4 ATTORNEY OLSON: And have you reviewed 5 the docket of the case? 6 MS. TOMCZYK: I have not reviewed the 7 entire docket. 8 ATTORNEY OLSON: And are you offering the 9 Committee your opinion on the constitutionality of 10 the current public entertainment permit ordinance? 11 MS. TOMCZYK: I am not. I am merely 12 trying to speak to the applications pending before 13 the Committee today based on the plan of operation 14 that was represented. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. If there is 16 no further questions, what we're going to do is our 17 court reporter is pregnant, and she needs a break. 18 So we're going to take a five-minute break. 19 (Break taken.) 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. The Licensing 21 Committee meeting will resume. 22 Okay. We are now -- next is 23 Angela Deumani. Please come to the microphone and 24 please raise your right hand to be sworn in. 25 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 108 1 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 2 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 3 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 4 truth? 5 MS. DEUMANI: Absolutely. Yes. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 7 please? 8 MS. DEUMANI: Angela Deumani, 235 East 9 Rosedale Avenue. I am the executive director of an 10 organization called Newaukee, and I am also a 11 member of Steve Chernof's WAM DC. Our business is 12 located at 161 West Wisconsin Avenue in the 13 Plankinton Building. 14 I believe the approval of this license 15 would be an impediment to the normal activity of 16 the Avenue and would inhibit our vision for the 17 Avenue and surrounding areas to be an attractive 18 place for young professionals. 19 Newaukee is an organization whose mission 20 is dedicated to activating the city's 40,000 young 21 professionals and to increase the vibrancy of 22 national perception of the City of Milwaukee. 23 This establishment would detract from our 24 organization, deter future economic development, 25 and the revitalization of this neighborhood. 109 1 Additionally, we have recently secured a 2 national grant from Mark Post America (phonetic) 3 for $350,000, over which 50 percent is going to 4 directly come back to the issue of safety and the 5 perception of safety on West Wisconsin Avenue 6 through the installation of art and events. 7 I do not have any -- I have only 8 anecdotal evidence that we host 150 events and 9 activities annually in our organization, about a 10 dozen of which are in and around Wisconsin Avenue 11 area. Because it is where our business is located, 12 we care very deeply about our major thoroughfare, 13 and its health and vibrancy. 14 Of those dozen -- of the 150, it is quite 15 difficult in terms of promotion to encourage not 16 only our audience members to attend but also our 17 staff and interns who are from area universities 18 due to the fact that this area is seen as not safe. 19 I strongly request that the Council deny this 20 application. 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 22 Committee? 23 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 25 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Ma'am, you just stated 110 1 that this area is deemed not safe? 2 MS. DEUMANI: I would say that the 3 general perception of the members of our 4 organization is that it is not safe. And I have 5 anecdotal evidence of our interns who actually 6 attend Marquette University saying they do not feel 7 comfortable inviting their friends and cohorts to 8 our events because their friends do not feel safe. 9 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: And I'm not going to 10 put Alderman Bauman on the spot, but I could put 11 the police on the spot because I believe, if I'm 12 not mistaken, that the downtown is the safest, if 13 not the safest. In fact, I believe the 14 1st Police District is the safest in the city. 15 MS. DEUMANI: I agree. If -- 16 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: So if your members 17 don't feel safe in the safest part of the city, and 18 don't promote the idea that it is the safest part 19 of the city, I wonder what the future of the 20 downtown area really is. 21 MS. DEUMANI: I wholeheartedly concur, 22 and one of our issues is to try to quell that 23 issue. I, as a young professional, work and play 24 on the Avenue, and I regularly -- despite the fact 25 that there is this exception and what our intention 111 1 is to try to dispel that, and funds from the local 2 sources are to try to activate the Avenue. 3 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: How many members are 5 in your organization? 6 MS. DEUMANI: We have 40,000 subscribers. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: 40,000 subscribers. 8 MS. DEUMANI: Seventy-two percent of them 9 live downtown. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Any questions of the 11 Committee? Attorney Whitcomb? 12 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Ma'am, what is your 13 name? I was outside servicing meters. 14 MS. DEUMANI: Angela Deumani. 15 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And how long have you 16 been with your organization? 17 MS. DEUMANI: Four years. 18 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And it's grown 19 exponentially over the last four years? 20 MS. DEUMANI: It has. 21 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No further questions. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Next speaker, 23 Chuck Allisen. 24 Please raise your right hand to be sworn 25 in, please. 112 1 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 2 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 3 Wisconsin that the testimony you are about to give 4 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 5 truth? 6 MR. ALLISEN: Yes, I do. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 8 please? 9 MR. ALLISEN: My name is Chuck Allisen, 10 720 North Old World Third. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What's your 12 testimony? 13 MR. ALLISEN: As the theme has been 14 carried forth, I agree with many of the people that 15 the safety and parking and just natural -- the 16 loitering that's going to occur outside of the 17 establishment that's -- encourages, you know, 18 drinking and late night activities just doesn't 19 make anybody feel safe. 20 By all means, if Alderman Dudzik claims 21 that this is one of the safest, I'm not going to 22 argue with that. But I don't think that 23 implementing more bars is going to make the area 24 more safe. If armed security is something that is 25 a remedy for a safe establishment, it doesn't make 113 1 any sense. 2 So the fact that we need to have armed 3 security to make things feel safer in and of itself 4 is the premise of my point. Also, with many of the 5 major headquarter Fortune 500 companies, it's going 6 to attract more young professionals and produce a 7 more booming downtown environment for young 8 professional to gravitate towards. 9 Like myself, most people like to live 10 close to the where they work. Due to the fact that 11 parking is expensive and difficult, the walking to 12 and from the workplace is not going to be 13 encouraged when you have more establishments such 14 as these around you. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 16 Committee? Attorney Whitcomb? 17 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No questions. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Next speaker 19 is Mark Holbar (phonetic). Before you start, sir, 20 we're going to call Joseph Lar or Lee, Junior, and 21 we're going to look at Stacy Callies. Stacy 22 Callies. 23 Okay. Please raise your right hand to be 24 sworn in. 25 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 114 1 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 2 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 3 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 4 truth? 5 MR. HOLLAAR: I do. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 7 please? 8 MR. HOLLAAR: Mark Hollaar. I live at 9 720 North Old World Third Street as a resident 10 there. 11 I would like to again reaffirm many of 12 the concerns that my fellow residents have with the 13 proposed establishment. One additional concern I 14 have is that as a pet owner, like the previous lady 15 who was up here said, I frequently have to take my 16 dog out, including at night. 17 And I know that when Rusty's was there, 18 there were a lot of people, especially on the 19 weekends at night on the street out in front and in 20 the alleyway either smoking or drinking or just 21 generally loitering, and it created an environment 22 that I really didn't want to take my dog out and 23 walk him at night. I know my girlfriend at the 24 time, she refused to go down and walk the dog with 25 me because she did not feel safe going out at night 115 1 with the people out in the alleyway. 2 And I'd like to add that if the 3 establishment were to pass and be put in place that 4 when my lease was up, I would have to strongly 5 consider finding a new residence. 6 Thank you. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 8 Committee? 9 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 11 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: So if this 12 establishment were to ever receive a liquor 13 license, again, put aside the adult entertainment 14 aspect of this application, you would consider 15 moving? 16 MR. HOLLAAR: I'm -- I'm less concerned 17 with the liquor license because I have lived 18 with -- lived beside a bar there. But I know there 19 is a big difference between just a bar and an adult 20 establishment. 21 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: That's true. Rusty's 22 had homicides, and Silk has never had a homicide. 23 MR. HOLLAAR: Silk has also never been 24 located downtown. There's been lots of testimony 25 that it's in a very remote area where only patrons 116 1 of the bar would be there. There is a lot more 2 random people walking around downtown. There's a 3 larger chance of something that may happen. 4 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Okay. Fair enough. 5 Thank you. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 7 Attorney Whitcomb? 8 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No questions, 9 Mr. Chairman. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Joseph Laur, Jr.? 11 Okay. Raise your right hand to be sworn in, 12 please. 13 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 14 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 15 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 16 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 17 truth? 18 MR. LAUR, JR.: I do. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 20 please? 21 MR. LAUR, JR.: Joseph Laur, Jr., 1243 22 North 10th Street. 23 First and foremost, I want to put out 24 that I am only opposed to the license application 25 in front of us today. And I whole-heartedly agree 117 1 with what has been raised already. 2 But I'd like to bring in some different 3 data points. I'm a commercial broker with Colliers 4 International. I've been involved in that fraction 5 of the real estate business for north of seven 6 years now. 7 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Could you get a little 8 closer to the mic? 9 MR. LAUR, JR.: Sure. Happy to. 10 At this point in time, I represent over 11 2 million square feet of office property within the 12 downtown and general vicinity of the downtown area. 13 And that said, I can say with certainty that 14 bringing in an establishment of this sort would 15 absolutely have a detrimental effect on the real 16 estate values. And I'm here to speak more to the 17 real estate values than any of the other concerns. 18 First and foremost, in an initial poll, 19 an informal poll of key office brokers in the 20 Milwaukee market representing the major office 21 firms, it is noted with certainty from the brokers 22 that if their clients were offered a choice of 23 locating; A, next to a strip club, and B, not next 24 to one, the alarming majority -- 25 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Mr. Chairman. 118 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Hold on, sir. 2 Counsel? 3 MR. LAUR, JR.: -- they would lean 4 towards the latter. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Go ahead, sir. 6 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Duty bound to object 7 to testimony of an informal survey by someone and 8 the responses being represented by him on the 9 grounds of hearsay. He can testify as to what he 10 believes, but not necessarily as to what others 11 represented to someone else what they believe. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 13 MR. LAUR, JR.: Duly noted. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 15 MR. LAUR, JR.: And with that, if I 16 could, I'll bring up a second data point and more a 17 specific point of example, more than any hearsay. 18 As part of my practition, I also deal with lease 19 renewals, and I am working currently on a leasing 20 transaction with a multi-national firm located in 21 close proximity to the proposed location. I was 22 contacted by an upstate representative of this firm 23 that in no uncertain terms -- 24 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Once again, 25 Mr. Chairman. 119 1 MR. LAUR, JR.: I am acting on behalf of 2 a third-party leasing staff. This was an agent for 3 the firm, and again, he represented to me that in 4 no uncertain terms this entity -- 5 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: It is a problem that 6 you're testifying as to what someone else is 7 saying. 8 MR. LAUR, JR.: Now, I need to share with 9 you that -- 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 11 MR. LAUR, JR.: -- I am the outsourcing 12 leasing department, per se, for an entity, just as 13 this individual is a -- 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Just refrain 15 your testimony, and don't relate conversations that 16 you've had with third parties. 17 MR. LAUR, JR.: Okay. It was represented 18 to me with that organization would rescind their 19 renewal -- 20 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Once again, sir. 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Okay. 22 MR. LAUR, JR.: It was said to me. It 23 was said to me -- 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Look, I don't care 25 if it's relayed or said or any other word you want. 120 1 I only want you to testify with your first-hand 2 experience. Do not relate any sort of conversation 3 in terms of whether it was communicated, relayed, 4 indicated, whatever. 5 MR. LAUR, JR.: Sure. Understood. 6 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: You can't testify as 7 to what someone else told you unless they're here 8 to testify to it. 9 MR. LAUR, JR.: We have a firm that will 10 no longer relocate at a building if this proposal 11 moves forward. That proposed lease has an 12 aggregate value of more than $2 million. In 13 commercial real estate, the property values are 14 derived based of off future cash flows. 15 I'll let your imagination go to imagine 16 what a $2 million cash flow projection does to the 17 value of the building. If this moves forward, that 18 will no longer occur. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 20 Committee? 21 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Sir. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 23 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Do you understand what 24 the cash influx from this particular business 25 venture would be? 121 1 MR. LAUR, JR.: I don't know the exact 2 numbers, but I would imagine that the one example I 3 am stating here could be carried on to many other 4 real estate examples, as well. 5 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Fair enough. Thank 6 you. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney Whitcomb. 8 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Do you have any 9 personal knowledge of an existing gentlemen's club 10 or strip club having an adverse impact on property 11 values after they had opened and operated? 12 MR. LAUR, JR.: The example that I 13 stated. 14 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No. The example that 15 you stated was someone who may or may not have been 16 making a decision based upon a fear. I'm talking 17 about actual facts that the existence of a 18 gentlemen's club will have an adverse impact on 19 property values? 20 MR. LAUR, JR.: Aside from all of the 21 tenants that have already spoken that they will 22 relocate, no. I think that would be pretty 23 indicative to what that will do to future values. 24 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Nothing further, 25 Mr. Chairman. 122 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 2 Stacy Callies. After her, before you start 3 speaking, we need DJ Berry, DJ Berry, please grab a 4 seat in the front row. And then we have Martha -- 5 Martha Love. And then we have Chinway Chi Chi 6 Oraka (phonetic). 7 Okay. And you're in opposition? 8 Please raise your right hand to be sworn 9 in. 10 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 11 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 12 Wisconsin that the testimony you are about to give 13 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 14 truth? 15 MS. CALLIES: I do. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 17 please? 18 MS. CALLIES: Stacy Callies, 19 C-A-L-L-I-E-S. I live at 224 East Mason Street, 20 Unit A, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 53202. I am the 21 executive director of the Westown Association BID 22 Number 5. And I am here to oppose this license on 23 the behalf of the Westown Association. 24 We're here to maintain our position of 25 opposition that we had in 2010 and 2012. And 123 1 because there are no material changes to the 2 location or the application, we urge the License 3 Committee to uphold their decision to deny the 4 license. 5 I support the position of Steve Chernof 6 who was here from WAMDC. Westown is a supporter of 7 that broad-based community effort to revitalize 8 Wisconsin Avenue along with our partners from BID 9 21. So I'd like to reiterate his comments. 10 But we feel in general that this use is 11 inappropriate for this location because it falls 12 within an area within the traditional commercial 13 and retail spine. This use would negatively affect 14 commercial and residential properties because of 15 the incompatibility of the use. 16 And this location will -- the use of this 17 at this location will mean lower property values 18 which impacts the city's tax space, as well as 19 severely restrict the nearby property owners to 20 retain and recruit both commercial and residential 21 tenants. 22 And we all know that since the central 23 business district represented about 10 percent of 24 the city's tax base, we know there is a lot of 25 economic impact at stake here. 124 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 2 Committee? Questions by Attorney Whitcomb? 3 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No, Mr. Chairman. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you very much. 5 Next speaker is DJ Berry. 6 Please raise your right hand to be sworn 7 in. 8 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 9 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 10 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 11 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 12 truth? 13 MR. BERRY: I do. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 15 please? 16 MR. BERRY: D.J. Berry, 720 Old World 17 Third Street. I am opposed to the proposed strip 18 club, as well. 19 I know a lot of specifics have been 20 thrown out about the demographic of students. I'd 21 like to speak on behalf of them because I am a 22 current student at Marquette. 23 When we were first looking into the Grand 24 Avenue on Wisconsin, a big selling point was that 25 demographic of students and recent graduates. It 125 1 was kind of a young area, so that kind of appealed 2 to us, so that's why we moved in. But I know if 3 that passed, we will strongly consider moving out. 4 A lot of these students that we know will not be 5 coming to that area anymore, which is a big selling 6 point. 7 I know opponents will say that the owner 8 of Silk is a very respected businessman in 9 Milwaukee, and we should put faith in that. That 10 is all good. I would argue that perception will 11 override fact, and generally, students will not 12 consider that, you know, when they're deciding 13 where to move. So that's disregarded, and I just 14 don't I think it's good. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 16 Committee? 17 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chair. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 19 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: When you moved in, you 20 said safety -- or perception and reality. Did you 21 deem that area to be safe? 22 MR. BERRY: Yes. 23 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Do you still deem that 24 area to be safe? 25 MR. BERRY: Yes. 126 1 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: And how long have you 2 been there? 3 MR. BERRY: I moved in there on July 1. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney Whitcomb. 5 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No questions. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Next speaker 7 is Martha Love. And before she starts speaking, 8 Janet Miller. Janet Miller, are you here? Please 9 grab a seat in the front row. And 10 Dana World-Patterson, are you here? 11 MS. WORLD-PATTERSON: Yes. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Ms. Love, please 13 raise your right hand. 14 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 15 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 16 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 17 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 18 truth? 19 MR. BERRY: Yes, I do. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 21 please? 22 MR. BERRY: Martha Love. I live 15 23 walking minutes from 720 or 730 North Old World 24 Third. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. We need your 127 1 address. 2 MR. BERRY: 1846 West Cherry Street, 3 53205. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Your 5 testimony? 6 MR. BERRY: My testimony is that -- 7 first, I want to just ask you to think about a 8 3-year-old, 7-year-old, 14-year-old, and 9 17-year-old. Secondly, I am a part of the Human 10 Trafficking Task Force of Greater Milwaukee. 11 And some people have questioned what is 12 the nexus -- what is the deal about a human 13 trafficking task force to a strip club? And our 14 research working with sex -- sex workers, human 15 trafficking survivors and also other victims of 16 domestic violence, one thing that was clearly 17 outstanding to us is they found that working in a 18 strip club or an exotic adult club is a gateway to 19 sex trafficking. And that is our primary concern 20 here in this particular area. 21 The Human Trafficking Task Force of 22 Greater Milwaukee is the community's response to 23 eradicating human trafficking through coordinating 24 services, education, and informed policy changes. 25 We stand in opposition of an entertainment license 128 1 for the -- for the strip club, Silk Entertainment. 2 Opening another strip club in downtown -- which we 3 have one about three blocks from City Hall -- 4 opening another strip club in downtown Milwaukee is 5 inappropriate for this community. 6 Milwaukee's downtown community is a 7 destination for families, reaction, and economic 8 development, that has clearly been pointed out here 9 today. Opening a strip club on Old World Third 10 Street will be an undesirable neighborhood presence 11 in the downtown area in need of substantial 12 economic development. 13 The appropriateness of the -- the 14 appropriateness of the location and the premises 15 where the entertainment permit is to be located and 16 whether use of the permit for the public 17 entertainment will create undesirable neighborhood 18 problems. Thank you for your attention. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Questions by 20 Committee? Questions by Attorney Whitcomb? 21 Questions? 22 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Yes. 23 MS. LOVE: Oh, you have a question. You 24 were so long, I didn't know. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I don't think you 129 1 had anything in your notes on human trafficking. 2 That's probably why it was taking so long. 3 Okay. Go ahead. 4 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: You'd be surprised. 5 How would you define -- 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Microphone, please. 7 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Sorry. I apologize. 8 How would you define "human trafficking"? 9 MS. LOVE: I define human trafficking as 10 pimps or traffickers in the State of Wisconsin, 11 which are located in 72 countries in the State of 12 Wisconsin. I would describe that as people being 13 forced and coerced to perform sexual acts for pay 14 by men or by women, and -- 15 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And as a national or 16 international problem, it customarily involves 17 those under the age of 17? 18 MS. LOVE: As an international and a 19 current State of Wisconsin being a training ground 20 for traffickers in the United States, I would 21 indicate that young people are groomed at home as 22 the sex survivors have indicated that one of the 23 areas of their training is working as a stripper in 24 an exotic adult club. 25 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No further questions. 130 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 2 Alderwoman Coggs? 3 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: But for clarity sake, 4 human trafficking is not relegated only to 5 juveniles, right? 6 MS. LOVE: Human trafficking is not 7 relegated to juveniles. Human trafficking is 8 relegated to persons from the years of birth 9 through death. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 11 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chair. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Hold on. 13 Hold on. 14 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Hi. How are you doing? 15 I haven't seen you in a long time. 16 MS. LOVE: That may be a good thing. 17 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I'm sorry. What was 18 that? 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: She said it may be a 20 good thing. 21 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I don't find it a good 22 thing. I always enjoyed your company. 23 MS. LOVE: And the same with you, sir. 24 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you very much. 25 But you just said something that made my ears perk 131 1 up, that much of human trafficking -- and I'm 2 paraphrasing -- starts in the home? 3 MS. LOVE: It starts in the home. It 4 starts in a number of different areas. And I will 5 try to reiterate that working as a stripper, which 6 is testimony by some of the sex workers and 7 survivors, much human trafficking, that working as 8 a stripper is a gateway and a lot of indications of 9 human trafficking. 10 After the human trafficker has used up 11 the sex worker, which is probably over the age of 12 17, a lot of times they're addicted to heroin and 13 other kinds of drugs to numb the feeling that 14 they're being forced though brutal methods to 15 perform these sex acts. As so, as a result, they 16 become addicted to drugs. 17 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: In your experience with 18 the clientele that you've dealt with, is it across 19 economic and racial and socioeconomic lines? 20 MS. LOVE: Human trafficking and 21 traffickers don't care about race, age, whether 22 it's your daughter or what have you. 23 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: They kick them out the 24 door at 17. 25 MS. LOVE: All they care about is the 132 1 $32 billion profits that has been made from human 2 trafficking around the world. And here in 3 Wisconsin, we have a training ground for pimps to 4 create the sex traffickers. 5 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. And again 6 thank you for your testimony. 7 MS. LOVE: Thank you. It's always a 8 pleasure. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Next speaker 10 is Chimi Chi Chi Oraka. 11 MS. ORAKA: It's Chinwe, "Chi Chi" -- 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Please raise 13 your right hand. 14 MS. ORAKA: -- Oraka. 15 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 16 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 17 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 18 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 19 truth? 20 MS. ORAKA: I do. 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 22 please? 23 MS. ORAKA: 720 Old World Third Street. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What's your 25 testimony? Now, again, if you agree with the 133 1 statements with the previous speakers, just 2 indicate so, and only share any new testimony. 3 MS. ORAKA: I do agree with the 4 statements. I just also wanted to state that in 5 the past, at bachelorette parties, we've gone to 6 Silk. It's loud. It was fun, but it's loud. And 7 there's tons of people, and it spills out into the 8 parking lot and to the street. How that's not 9 going to happen with it being at Rusty's next door, 10 I don't see how that's a possibility. I don't know 11 how you can contain that much noise in that little 12 area or area of a building. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 14 Committee? Questions by Attorney Whitcomb? 15 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Any complaints 16 regarding the management or operation of Silk as 17 you experienced it? 18 MS. ORAKA: No. I don't have any 19 complaints against Silk. I'm saying it just was 20 extremely loud. And there was lots of people and a 21 lot of cars going on in that little area that I 22 lived facing Rusty's myself, it was really loud. 23 Bass was going on until to 2 in the morning. How 24 can you contain all of that? 25 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: The Silk on the 134 1 Northwest Side, when you say it was loud, are you 2 talking about on the inside? 3 MS. ORAKA: Inside and outside. Because 4 you're still screaming and doing whatever. You 5 walk out to your car, which was in the parking lot 6 of the club. 7 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Thank you. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you for your 9 testimony. Next speaker is Janet Miller. 10 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 11 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 12 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 13 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 14 truth? 15 MS. MILLER: I do. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Name and 17 address, please? 18 MS. MILLER: Janet Miller. I'm one of 19 those 66 independent, single women who lives at 20 720 Old World Third Street. I also face -- my 21 apartment also faces the alley. And in addition to 22 some of the comments that were made, I am opposed 23 to any business, first of all, that exploits women. 24 My apartment faces the alley, and we 25 already have a problem with traffic and illegal 135 1 parking on the side of the building. And that's 2 our entrance to our parking garage. So I believe 3 that's going to be a significant problem. 4 I've lived in the building for four 5 years, and I moved downtown in order to be close to 6 work. And I am only a block away from work. And I 7 use that alley to walk to 2nd Street, so I am 8 concerned about the noise, the traffic, and the 9 activity that is going to change. 10 But what I want to make the Committee 11 aware of -- and you've been hearing about 12 trafficking, you've been hearing about illegal 13 activity -- is that within one block of that 14 location, there are two treatment centers for women 15 who have been involved in prostitution; Unlimited 16 Potential on Wells and Benedict Center, that is 17 located in the Germania Building. 18 Our mission and our goal is to work with 19 women who have been addicted to drugs and alcohol, 20 who live in poverty, who've had their children 21 taken away from them, and who have been involved in 22 prostitution. 23 And I am very concerned about the 24 activities that are going to go on after hours when 25 men and women are coming out of that club, drunk, 136 1 with their libidos as high as kites and looking for 2 other activity besides what goes on in the club. 3 And so for that reason, I am against 4 giving this license. I also want to say that I 5 know that in the proposal, I saw that there is a 6 30-year lease between Silk and the building owner, 7 and I believe that lease is already in place. 8 And I also believe that they have not 9 tried to put in a legitimate, family-friendly, 10 positive development business in that location, so 11 that they could say that this is the only thing 12 that's going to work in there. 13 So for that, also -- that reason, also, I 14 am opposed to that license. And I find it really 15 odd that they want the entertainment license 16 without the liquor license. I don't see that at 17 all as being a viable option. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any questions 19 by the Committee? 20 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 22 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: How long have you lived 23 there? 24 MS. MILLER: I've lived there four years, 25 and I've worked at the Benedict Center for five 137 1 years. 2 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: And like the woman 3 before you -- I've been to Silk, and I got to tell 4 you, the lines of exploitation are somewhat blurry. 5 Sometimes I think the men are the ones being 6 exploited. But that's because I only see the cash 7 going one way. But I appreciate what you bring to 8 the table. Thank you very much. 9 MS. MILLER: Thank you. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney Whitcomb? 11 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Nothing, 12 Mr. Chairman. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Next speaker is 14 Dana World-Patterson. And before you start 15 speaking, we need Beth Weirick. Please grab a seat 16 in the front row. Peter Wyant (phonetic). Peter 17 Wyant, are you here? Please grab a seat in the 18 front row. And Leah Harant (phonetic). Is Leah 19 Harant here? 20 Okay. Dana World-Patterson, please raise 21 your right hand to be sworn in. 22 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 23 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 24 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 25 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 138 1 truth? 2 MS. WORLD-PATTERSON: I do. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 4 please? 5 MS. WORLD-PATTERSON: Dana 6 World-Patterson, 3356 North 47th, Milwaukee, 53216. 7 And I stand opposed to the opening of the strip 8 club in the most possible way. I am the 9 chairperson of the Human Trafficking Task Force of 10 Greater Milwaukee. 11 We meet regularly -- we meet monthly. 12 About 40 people in our organization come to 13 eradicate human trafficking in our community. Why 14 is this important, and why are we here? Laura 15 Johnson, at 14, when she became a victim of human 16 trafficking at 14, the day after she left, she was 17 kept prisoner by a pimp and forced to engage in 18 exotic dancing and prostitution for the next three 19 years of her life. 20 Why is this important? Although human 21 trafficking, you may say, is secondary, it has been 22 stated. And we believe nothing has changed since 23 2009 when it was opposed by the Council as Silk 24 Entertainment has been coming forth to the 25 Committee. Nothing has changed regarding safety, 139 1 health, and the welfare within the neighborhood. 2 But it has come to our attention how important 3 human trafficking is and the health, safety, and 4 welfare of across the world, globally, it's 2,000 5 to 300 -- 200,000 to 300,000 women a year that have 6 been documented, 80 percent of them, children. 7 So as with Laura Johnson, who was 8 trafficked, forced, fraud or coercion, it was not 9 her choice for those three years to strip and show 10 her body and be exploited for entertainment. 11 It is -- I know that this is secondary, 12 but it is for the welfare of our community. 13 Nothing has changed. Alderman Hamilton said it 14 profoundly. Alderman Witkowiak said it 15 profoundly -- sorry. 16 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Close enough. 17 MS. WORLD-PATTERSON: Okay. 18 Alderman Bauman has said it profoundly. Nothing 19 has changed. However, the awareness of human 20 trafficking in our community is on the rise because 21 we know that it is taking place. 22 And for that reason, we stand strongly 23 opposed to another entertainment on the backs of 24 our women and girls being opened in the City of 25 Milwaukee. And I say not in our community, or 140 1 anyone else's. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Hold on. 3 Okay. Questions by Committee? Questions by 4 Attorney Whitcomb? 5 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Do you believe that 6 they dance -- 7 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Microphone. 8 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Do you believe that 9 the voluntary uncoerced entertainment performance 10 by women without their clothes on should be an 11 illegal activity? 12 MS. WORLD-PATTERSON: What I know for 13 sure -- 14 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Please answer the 15 question, ma'am. 16 MS. WORLD-PATTERSON: I'm going to answer 17 to the best of my knowledge. What I know for sure 18 is that a woman who is forced or that is trafficked 19 is not going to walk into your establishment and 20 say that she is. She's in danger of her safety and 21 welfare. 22 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: What about the women 23 who are not engaged in trafficking who want to earn 24 money being entertainers? What about them? 25 MS. WORLD-PATTERSON: What about them, 141 1 are you -- 2 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Do they have a choice 3 in this matter, or is it that all activity should 4 be illegal? 5 MS. WORLD-PATTERSON: Is it on your 6 application whether or not they are trafficked? 7 How do you know? 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I think this is 9 turning into a little bit -- I don't think that's 10 going any place. Unless you got another line of 11 questioning where it's very specific questioning 12 relevant to this, do you have anything else? 13 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Next speaker. 15 MS. WORLD-PATTERSON: Thank you. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: And before we swear 17 you in, is Peter Wyant here? Are you Peter Wyant? 18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: No. He had to go. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Is he coming back? 20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: No. 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Is he -- 22 we'll get rid of him over here. Leah Harant, is 23 she here? 24 AUDIENCE MEMBER: She's not coming. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: She's not coming, 142 1 either. Okay. John Hennessy? Okay. Grab a seat 2 in the front row. Emily Krause? Great. Grab a 3 seat in the front row. 4 Please raise your right hand to be sworn 5 in. 6 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 7 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 8 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 9 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 10 truth? 11 MS. WEIRICK: I do. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 13 please? 14 MS. WEIRICK: Beth Weirick, 15 W-E-I-R-I-C-K. Home is 930 East Lyon Street, 16 Office, 600 East Wells Street. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. And your 18 testimony, please? 19 MS. WEIRICK: Good morning, Mr. Chair and 20 Committee Members. As indicated, I am Beth 21 Weirick, and I serve as the executive director of 22 Milwaukee downtown BID Number 21. And I am here 23 today for the third time now to oppose the Silk 24 strip club license application at this location due 25 to negative secondary impact this operation will 143 1 have. 2 And it is in direct conflict with the 3 downtown area comprehensive plan and with our 4 organization street front retail strategy that was 5 completed by Downtown Works, an expert in retail 6 location and recruitment. 7 This past month, as you are very well 8 aware, has been filled with lots of Committee 9 meetings around our city's budget. The Council and 10 the mayor have exercised great financial judgment 11 and addressed substantial issues such as stagnant 12 state aids, state-imposed property tax limits, 13 expiring grants, and other major issues surrounding 14 your city's budgetary challenges. 15 It's also been identified that our city 16 needs approximately an additional $14.8 million of 17 property tax levy within the next three years to 18 accommodate the required pension payments. The 19 only way to achieve this goal is to grow our city's 20 property tax base, not to decrease it. 21 Our organization, along with other 22 downtown city workers have been working diligently 23 to drive positive economic activity and to increase 24 property values in downtown Milwaukee, and it is 25 working through perseverance. 144 1 The downtown district represents less 2 than 1 percent of the city's land mass, and yet we 3 pay over 10 percent of the city's tax base, which 4 equates to approximately $2.3 billion. 30 percent 5 of all City of Milwaukee jobs are here in our 6 central business district. 7 We have over 21,000 residents that call 8 downtown Milwaukee home. Our quality of life is 9 extremely important to these folks. We continue to 10 work to make downtown Milwaukee clean, safe, and 11 friendly. 12 We are a series of neighborhoods. We 13 want to attract more street front activity that 14 enhances walkability and engagement. A strip club 15 such as Silk, which is dark and uninviting, is 16 likely to drive out tenants and residents, as 17 witnessed here today first-hand, which will result 18 in deduced property values. 19 This decision will definitely move our 20 city in the wrong direction. It is imperative that 21 responsible choices are made as it relates to 22 growing our city's property tax base. Ultimately, 23 solid investments, strong property values, and 24 increases to our residency are crucial as we move 25 our city forward. 145 1 A strip club at this location will not 2 only affect our property values, in fact, negative 3 impact will reach them. That's why we ask for you 4 to deny this application today. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Questions from the 6 Committee? 7 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 9 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Is it fair to say that 10 your organization would be opposed to a strip club 11 in the downtown area? 12 MS. WEIRICK: I think we would have to 13 react to an application. 14 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Is it fair to say that 15 your organization would react negatively to an 16 application anywhere within the BID? 17 MS. WEIRICK: Well, our organization 18 never, ever takes a position without reaching out 19 to our stakeholders and talking to them. In fact, 20 whether it's a retail decision or a strip club or 21 zoning or -- 22 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Have you -- have you 23 had conversations with Mr. Ferraro? 24 MS. WEIRICK: I have. 25 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Is your organization -- 146 1 MS. WEIRICK: I called him. 2 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: And I'm sure it worked 3 the other way around, and he was calling you, as 4 well, yes? 5 MS. WEIRICK: I never received a call 6 from him. I had several e-mails, but I called him. 7 Right, Mr. Ferraro? 8 MR. FERRARO: Yeah. I sent you a couple 9 of e-mails, and you got back to me a couple of 10 weeks ago. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 12 Attorney Whitcomb? 13 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Do you have a 14 relationship with Mr. Weirick, who testified 15 earlier? 16 MS. WEIRICK: My husband? Yes. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I'm glad to hear 18 that that's still the case. 19 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Ms. Weirick. 21 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: For the benefit of 22 the record, can you describe what the geographical 23 boundaries of BID 21 are? 24 MS. WEIRICK: Sure. To the east, it's 25 Prospect; to the west, 10th Street; we go as far 147 1 north at the Schlitz Park and Manpower area; and 2 then we go as far south as the Amtrak station on 3 St. Paul. 4 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Are you familiar with 5 an establishment that is currently in existence 6 that offers public entertainment premises and a 7 tavern license that offers adult entertainment such 8 as exotic dance inside your BID 21 District? 9 MS. WEIRICK: Yes. 10 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Do you know the name 11 of that facility? 12 MS. WEIRICK: Art's Performance Center. 13 And here are several others that were in existence, 14 but they have closed down for a variety of reasons. 15 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And that's currently 16 operational? 17 MS. WEIRICK: To my understanding, yes. 18 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Do you know, 19 approximately, where that is located? 20 MS. WEIRICK: It's located on Juneau, 21 just west on Water Street. 22 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And do you know, 23 approximately, how far that location is from this 24 current proposal? 25 MS. WEIRICK: Four or five blocks. 148 1 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Have you ever 2 testified in opposition to that place? 3 MS. WEIRICK: Never. 4 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Is there a reason for 5 that? 6 MS. WEIRICK: We've never received 7 complaints from property owners or businessowners 8 in that area. 9 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Thank you. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Next speaker 11 is -- 12 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Wait just a minute, 13 Mr. Chairman. A quick follow-up question to 14 Mr. Stephens. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney Whitcomb. 16 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Any negative 17 secondary impacts on the community in the vicinity 18 of Art's Performance Center that have been brought 19 to your attention? 20 MS. WEIRICK: No. None. 21 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No further questions. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 23 John Hennessy. Please raise your right hand to be 24 sworn in. 25 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 149 1 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 2 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 3 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 4 truth? 5 MR. HENNESSY: I do. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 7 please? 8 MR. HENNESSY: My name is John Hennessy. 9 I own the St. James Court Historic Apartments at 10 831 West Wisconsin Avenue in Milwaukee. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Your 12 testimony? 13 MR. HENNESSY: Okay. Well, I've owned 14 that building since 1994, and we fixed it up. We 15 invested a lot of money into it. And generally, I 16 do neighborhood development in neighborhoods near 17 downtown. I'm also on the Westown Board -- and I'm 18 a member on the Westown Board. 19 Lately, our goal in this neighborhood, 20 the Westown area, is to get more residents to fix 21 up some of our old buildings to help our businesses 22 in that area. And we're excited because lately, 23 we're attracting a number of young professionals 24 into the neighborhood. 25 And oftentimes, they have businesses. 150 1 And we're forming a stronger and stronger 2 community. And that's helping business. So I'm 3 opposed to this strip club because this activity 4 and this establishment is just -- it just doesn't 5 fit with what we're doing. It would be like 6 shooting ourselves in the foot. So, I mean, that's 7 pretty much it in a nutshell. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 9 Committee? Questions by Counsel? 10 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No, Mr. Chairman. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you for 12 your testimony. 13 Emily Krause. Okay. Before we swear you 14 in, Sara Beth Lewis? Is Sara Beth Lewis here? 15 MS. LEWIS: Yes. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Please grab a 17 seat in the front row. And Mary Jane Jorgensen, 18 please grab a seat in the front row. We've got 19 Alexander Valley. Alexander Valley? He's in the 20 overflow room. Okay. Tell him to come here. 21 Kathy Gertin (phonetic)? Is she in the overflow 22 room? 23 Okay. You could -- okay. Ma'am, are you 24 testifying? With the glasses, in the first row. 25 Could you vacate your seat? I want to get the 151 1 people in the first row. And then Casey 2 Hasenstein. Casey Hasenstein. Okay. Okay. Good. 3 Okay. So, now, these are all the people 4 that I have left that are here to testify in 5 opposition. Okay. We're going to ask about them 6 in a second. Okay. So if there is anybody else 7 that would like to testify in opposition, please 8 sign the registration form, so you have an 9 opportunity, because once we finish with these, 10 we're going to take about a 30-minute lunch break 11 and then hear from the other side. 12 Please raise your right hand to be sworn 13 in. 14 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 15 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 16 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 17 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 18 truth? 19 MS. KRAUSE: I do. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 21 please? 22 MS. KRAUSE: Emily Krause. I live at 720 23 North Old World Third Street. I'm obviously in 24 opposition for this. I'm a resident of the 25 apartment complex there. And personally, I would 152 1 definitely be moving out. 2 I would never have moved into that 3 apartment complex if there was an operation next 4 door such as the one being considered today. I 5 also work from home. I'm a sales representative, 6 and I work from my house. 7 So personally, I feel like if it opened 8 up at 11 o'clock, I think it would definitely 9 disrupt my work. And my co-workers and my boss 10 come to my house. My boss comes for lunch, and I 11 just would never want someone to see that I live 12 next door to that type of environment, so... 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 14 Committee? Questions by Attorney Whitcomb? 15 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you very much. 17 Next speaker is Sara Beth Lewis. Please raise your 18 right hand to be sworn in. 19 Oh. I'm sorry. Our clerk left, 20 unbeknownst to me. 21 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 22 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 23 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 24 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 25 truth? 153 1 MS. LEWIS: I do. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Name and 3 address, please? 4 MS. LEWIS: Sara Beth Lewis. And I live 5 at 720 Old World Third Street. I am also an 6 assistant district attorney here in Milwaukee. I 7 do appear today, however, in my personal capacity; 8 not in my capacity as a assistant district 9 attorney. 10 But I am going to -- in the comments that 11 I make in objection -- and this is the second time 12 that I have appeared before this Committee to speak 13 in opposition to this license. 14 But some of my comments will draw upon my 15 background, training, and experience, and expertise 16 as it relates to certain areas of criminal law 17 where I have seen the intersection of strip 18 club-related or gentlemen's club-type businesses 19 and certain forms of criminal activity, which I'll 20 comment on in just a moment. 21 But I don't want to recap what everybody 22 else has talked about. But I would second that I 23 share most of the concerns that have already been 24 voiced during the course of this hearing, 25 specifically, those concerns related to -- 154 1 immediate concerns about the traffic, the 2 congestion, the noise level. 3 I also think that would lead to an 4 increase in the littering around the area of my 5 apartment building. I also share the concerns 6 related to property values, the adverse impact of 7 people leaving the apartment building, seeking 8 residences elsewhere. 9 I think when looking at a license 10 request, this is -- this license has been requested 11 previously, I think two other times, and been 12 denied. Looking at what has changed, like what has 13 changed since the last time -- 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Ma'am, you're 15 starting to cover ground that's already been 16 testified to on numerous occasions. So if you 17 agree with the previous speakers, then just provide 18 us with additional information that hasn't been 19 testified to, so we can expedite this process. 20 MS. LEWIS: Certainly. Okay. I think 21 what I have to offer as additional information, I 22 don't think has really been addressed adequately 23 yet, is the concern surrounding crime that may be 24 attracted to the area as a result of this business. 25 And I would note that based on my 155 1 experience, and it's just kind of interesting that 2 I happen to live in this residence that's next 3 door, but I am also a prosecutor who handles sex 4 trafficking cases. 5 That concept of human trafficking or sex 6 trafficking of women and girls has already been 7 touched upon in kind of a general way. I want to 8 explain, based on my own knowledge and experience, 9 a better perhaps -- what the nexus is between strip 10 clubs and the possibility of this activity. 11 And this is activity that very much 12 remains underground, and it's criminal, so people 13 are not going to be vocal about what exactly is 14 going on. But it is a true fact, based on my 15 knowledge, and based on numerous trainings I've 16 attended, based on my own experience of criminal 17 cases that I have handled. It's based on people 18 that are prostituted; that is, individual girls 19 that have been under the age of 18. I would say 20 that the key demographic, they may be legally 21 dancing in these clubs, it certainly would be 22 without the knowledge of the gentlemen who owns 23 Silk. 24 He's the, you know, CEO. I'm not sure if 25 that's the title that he gives himself. He's the 156 1 top man. He's not going to be inside each one of 2 his establishments checking every young woman or 3 lady that is contracting. 4 Oftentimes, people use false 5 identifications that have been created either by 6 themselves or by persons that are facilitating 7 them. There's where this concept of pimps or 8 trackers comes in. 9 And it really is a first step. We see it 10 with some consistency. And younger women and girls 11 that are brought into this are prostituted or often 12 brought to strip clubs to dance. And they're 13 required to give all of the tips or money that they 14 make dancing at places like Silk or similar 15 establishments to the pimp. 16 And Silk may not even be aware of the 17 fact that that goes on in its environment. But the 18 fact of the matter is that it goes on, to some 19 extent, in most all venues of this nature. And 20 Milwaukee does have a problem. 21 The sex trafficking or pimping problem in 22 Milwaukee has been -- I don't know if it's grown 23 exponentially, or just that more is being uncovered 24 with, you know, law enforcement is focusing more on 25 it. 157 1 And I am a member of the federal -- a 2 seated member through my occupation of the federal 3 anti- or Federal Human Trafficking Task Force. I 4 am also affiliated with the -- 5 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Mr. Chairman. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Hold on a minute. 7 Counsel? 8 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: I -- 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Microphone. 10 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: I just want to bring 11 up the fact that the point has been made, and I 12 think we're getting a bit -- 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Yeah. I was just 14 getting ready to interject myself here. I mean, 15 you've covered that pretty good, your credentials, 16 you know, and so on and so forth. 17 MS. LEWIS: Can I say one more brief 18 thing, though? 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Sure. 20 MS. LEWIS: It is a public forum. 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: But we have to be 22 respectful of people's time and not be redundant. 23 MS. LEWIS: Okay. Okay. I wanted to 24 make sure it was clear what the nexus is between 25 that. But I also -- it's also my knowledge and 158 1 understanding that illegal drug activity, in 2 addition to prostitution, generally, and probably 3 other persons and other types of crimes that can be 4 drawn to these establishments. 5 That's what makes it different as far as 6 impact from just your regular tavern, bar, or 7 restaurant with a liquor license. So for all of 8 those reasons, I do vigorously oppose the license 9 in this location. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 11 Questions by Committee? 12 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 14 ALDERMAN KOVAC: You said that it's 15 possible that there could be things going on at 16 Silk that he's not aware of. Through your 17 experience, do you have relations with Silk? 18 MS. LEWIS: I'm hesitant to comment 19 directly on that in case I am wrong, and because I 20 can't comment on, like, ongoing, open matters -- 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Can you say anything 22 about -- 23 MS. LEWIS: But I can say it has come up. 24 I can say with certainty that the name Silk has 25 come up in the course of some investigations. And 159 1 again, I want to be fair. That doesn't necessarily 2 mean that the management of Silk was aware of 3 whatever criminal activity had a nexus to it. 4 But it has come up, less frequently than 5 some other establishments, but, yes. 6 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Obviously, you can't 7 comment on things that are open, but is there 8 anything that's closed that you can comment on? 9 MS. LEWIS: That I can comment 10 specifically involving Silk? Not off the top of my 11 head. Maybe. But I don't want to misstate 12 anything, so... 13 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Okay. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Counsel? 15 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Did you used to be a 16 DA in Ozaukee County? 17 MS. LEWIS: No. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: What was the 19 question? 20 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: A DA in Ozaukee 21 County. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 23 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Given your expertise 24 and provided we're not going to ban nude dancing in 25 Milwaukee, how would you counsel owners of exotic 160 1 dancing clubs to prevent women who are being 2 trafficked -- trafficked from gaining entrance from 3 working at the club? 4 How could we assist in defeating human 5 trafficking other than just banning nude dancing? 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Well, I think that 7 her testimony -- the question is supposed to be 8 related to her testimony here with respect to that 9 location. And I asked her to -- I mean, for her to 10 speculate, you know, go ahead and answer that 11 question. 12 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: If you can. 13 MS. LEWIS: I mean, that would be -- 14 that's maybe an important question for persons like 15 your client to ask and get very comprehensive 16 advice on. I wouldn't really want to venture to 17 try to answer that comprehensively right now. 18 But having good communication with the 19 women that are being contracted as dancers and 20 providing them with a supportive environment, it 21 would be one step. But like it was noted, the 22 testimony -- 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: He's got it. And I 24 think he understands that they're going to do 25 research on this issue and human trafficking. But 161 1 this is not the venue to discuss strategies of how 2 he can improve the operation of his business with 3 respect to human trafficking. 4 Do you have a question that's something 5 on a different track? 6 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 8 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Mr. Chair. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Perez. 10 ALDERMAN PEREZ: I have a question. 11 Every time the experts and activists talk to us on 12 human trafficking first and then kind of funneled 13 into exotic dancing and being forced to do that. 14 From your knowledge, do we have, you 15 know, just people who want to be in the 16 entertainment business, and once they're into that 17 business, then illegal activities spring from there 18 versus the other way around? 19 MS. LEWIS: I think it can go both ways, 20 and I have observed it go both ways. Persons who 21 want to try and solicit individuals to traffic or 22 pimp will often come to strip clubs. 23 And so you could have a young woman who 24 is on her own dancing at Silk contracting there, 25 but then -- in that environment, and she's 162 1 solicited by a pimp. Pimps patronize these places. 2 And it's hard. 3 There isn't a litmus test. So they want 4 the business. So pimps and their individuals come 5 in. I mean, they're good business for the 6 operation. But they're also there likely with 7 ulterior with regards to the, you know, women who 8 are dancing. 9 So it's possible for people to be 10 recruited when they are there on their own doing it 11 independently to begin with. It's also possible 12 that they're recruited in some other context, and 13 then told go dance at Silk, and make me X amount of 14 money, and turn it over, or there will be certain 15 repercussions. 16 So -- and I guess my main point is that 17 the activity is connected to certain criminal 18 activity; that trafficking aspect that's been 19 discussed at some length. And I think some other 20 criminal activity, such as drugs -- and I would say 21 that that trafficking also is offshoot criminal 22 activity. 23 But the problem is that that would -- 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 25 MS. LEWIS: -- manifest in that -- 163 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: We've -- 2 MS. LEWIS: -- neighborhood and not be 3 good for it. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: -- covered that. 5 Okay. Do you have any other questions? 6 ALDERMAN PEREZ: No. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Next speaker 8 is Sara Beth. That was her. Okay. 9 Mary Jane Jorgensen. 10 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 11 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 12 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 13 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 14 truth? 15 MS. JORGENSEN: I do. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 17 please? 18 MS. JORGENSEN: My name is Mary Jane 19 Jorgensen, and I live at 1260 North Prospect 20 Avenue, Number 706, in Milwaukee. And I am a new 21 resident of Milwaukee. I've been here just a 22 little over a year. I'm loving the city and all it 23 has to offer, and I'm really concerned about what 24 happens in these strip clubs. 25 I don't have anything I -- you know -- 164 1 that -- well, my daughter came home one day, and 2 she said, mom, her friend Katie was dancing in a 3 strip club -- 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Ma'am, you can only 5 share first-hand experience. So if you agree with 6 the previous speakers, say you agree with the 7 previous speakers. And if you have anything to add 8 from a first-hand, you know, perspective, then 9 share that with the Committee. Otherwise, just say 10 that you agree with the previous speakers, and 11 we'll move on. 12 MS. JORGENSEN: I was told that this 13 young lady, who was dancing in a strip club -- 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No. Ma'am, you 15 can't do that. That's hearsay. That's hearsay. 16 You cannot relay what somebody else told you what 17 happened at some place else. That's hearsay. What 18 you need to do is testify from your own 19 perspective, your own opinion, your first-hand 20 experiences. 21 MS. JORGENSEN: Okay. So one thing that 22 I'm concerned about for me personally is that I 23 volunteer at the Riverside Theater. And I have to 24 walk several blocks when I am volunteering to be 25 able to get to my car -- 165 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Right. 2 MS. JORGENSEN: -- before and after. And 3 if there is a club of this sort in that 4 neighborhood that I have to walk by in the 5 neighborhood, I'm going to be concerned about my 6 own, personal -- 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Perfect. That's 8 perfect. That's what we're looking for. Very 9 good. Okay. Is there anything else that you want 10 to add? 11 MS. JORGENSEN: I'm just concerned 12 about -- 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: You did very good. 14 That's very good. That's very powerful testimony. 15 MS. JORGENSEN: Okay. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 17 Committee? Questions by Counsel? Okay. Welcome 18 to Milwaukee. 19 Next person is Alexander Valley. Please 20 raise your right hand. 21 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 22 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 23 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 24 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 25 truth? 166 1 MR. VALLEY: I do. I have -- I'm a 2 resident. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 4 please? 5 MR. VALLEY: Alexander Valley, 720 North 6 Old World Third. I am a resident in the adjacent 7 building. I have nothing new to bring to the 8 table. I disagree with this establishment moving 9 in next door. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: And you agree with 11 the previous speakers? Okay. Questions by 12 Committee? Questions Counsel? 13 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Next speaker 15 is Kathie Gerten (phonetic). Okay. 16 Please raise your right hand. 17 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 18 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 19 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 20 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 21 truth? 22 MS. GERTH: I do. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 24 please? 25 MS. GERTH: My name is Katie Gerth, 167 1 G-E-R-T-H. I live at 720 Old World Third Street. 2 I recently moved to Milwaukee from Phoenix to 3 advance my career as a young female and a young 4 professional. 5 I never would have chosen that location 6 to live had I known there would be an adult 7 entertainment club there. I would be forced -- and 8 I agree with the same reasons that everyone else 9 said, I would be forced to relocate. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 11 Committee? Questions by Counsel? Thank you very 12 much. 13 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Hold on. 15 Attorney Stephens has a question for you. 16 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: In your own words, 17 why would you feel forced to move? 18 MS. GERTH: Because I would feel 19 uncomfortable. I have a small dog. I use the 20 alley to get to the car. It would make me feel 21 uncomfortable, and I want to live where I feel 22 comfortable. Having that establishment, the noise, 23 the traffic, would make me feel uncomfortable. 24 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And if I may, 25 approximately, how old are you? 168 1 MS. GERTH: I'm 26. 2 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Okay. And you're new 3 to the city? 4 MS. GERTH: Yes. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: You're from Phoenix? 6 MS. GERTH: I lived in Phoenix in the 7 last eight years. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: You came here for 9 the weather? 10 MS. GERTH: Job promotion. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I knew it wasn't for 12 the weather. Okay. Alderman Dudzik. 13 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: No. No. No. You 14 asked the question. I wasn't interested. 15 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Some people go crazy 16 without winter. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I like the changes. 18 I like the seasons. I get tired of the same 19 day-in, day-out. 20 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Give me a nice snowy 21 day and some whiskey, and I'm okay. 22 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 23 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 24 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 25 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 169 1 truth? 2 MS. HASENSTEIN: I do. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 4 please? 5 MS. HASENSTEIN: Casey Hasenstein. I 6 live at 720 Old World Third Street. And I agree 7 with what everyone has been saying. I just want to 8 add that when I was looking for apartments downtown 9 in September, I wouldn't have chosen Grand 10 Wisconsin if I knew there was a potential strip 11 club going in next door, due to noise, and parking 12 is already a problem. 13 And also, I am a nurse, so I have to walk 14 through the alley, and it just concerns me for my 15 safety working that late at night. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 17 Committee? Questions by Counsel? 18 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: When did you move in, 19 ma'am? 20 MS. HASENSTEIN: September this year. 21 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And there's a bar in 22 that location right now, correct? 23 MS. HASENSTEIN: No. 24 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney Stephens. 170 1 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: I have the same two 2 questions for you as well as I asked the last 3 witness. Why -- you mentioned -- you mentioned 4 that you would be coming home late after you work 5 as a nurse. Does it provide -- what about the 6 security plan that you've heard being discussed by 7 Silk that they would have security guards outside 8 escorting people? 9 MS. HASENSTEIN: Well, there's still -- 10 you have to call them? Would they come to my 11 parking garage and come pick me up every night? 12 Are they going to put that in? 13 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Would that change 14 your mind? 15 MS. HASENSTEIN: Probably not. I don't 16 think it would be a good plan. 17 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And approximately how 18 old are you? 19 MS. HASENSTEIN: I'm 23. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 21 The next speaker is Lindsay Winner -- Weiner -- 22 Wigger (phonetic)? Okay. Before you go up there, 23 we have -- is there anybody else that wants to 24 testify in opposition that hasn't filled out a 25 form? 171 1 Because we're going to wrap up the 2 opposition side pretty soon. Now, we have a couple 3 of people that -- we have one individual that 4 filled out a form, but they didn't indicate whether 5 they were in support or in opposition. 6 Eva Epperson? 7 MS. EPPERSON: That's me. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Are you in 9 opposition? 10 MS. EPPERSON: That's me. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Please come forward. 12 Please raise your right hand. 13 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 14 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 15 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 16 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 17 truth? 18 MS. WICKER: I do. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 20 please? 21 MS. WICKER: Lindsay Wicker. 720 North 22 Old World Third. So I'm in opposition for -- 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: All of the reasons 24 given. 25 MS. WICKER: -- I as well -- 172 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 2 MS. WICKER: -- have a dog, and I would 3 feel very uncomfortable walking outside by myself. 4 I use the alley, as well. That's where the grassy 5 area is. You have to kind of use the alley to get 6 there, and I wouldn't feel comfortable going there 7 by myself. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 9 Committee? Questions by Counsel? 10 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No, sir. 11 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. Same 12 question. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney Stephens. 14 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And approximately how 15 old are you? 16 MS. WICKER: I'm 24. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. The next 18 speaker is Eva Epperson, and before you go to the 19 microphone, Eva Epperson is the last person I have 20 that signed a sheet in opposition. So this will be 21 the last time that we call anybody that's in 22 opposition. 23 This is your chance to sign up. If you 24 don't, we're going to break for lunch. When we 25 come back, we're going to hear from the people in 173 1 support. 2 Please raise your right hand. 3 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 4 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 5 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 6 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 7 truth? 8 MS. EPPERSON: I do. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Your name and 10 address, please? 11 MS. EPPERSON: Eva Epperson, 1129 North 12 Jackson Street. And I shop and I buy things around 13 town frequently. I came from East Germany and 14 settled in Milwaukee in 1958, married 53 years and 15 have two sons and four grandchildren. 16 I grew up in an environment where 17 physical fitness and competition was stressed very 18 highly, and we were kept busy from morning to night 19 as children growing up and working hard. And 20 everything was clear and organized, and we stayed 21 focused in our goals. 22 And this is -- I know young children in 23 Milwaukee, they don't receive the discipline -- 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Ma'am, we're here to 25 testify on this strip club here. You know, I 174 1 mean -- 2 MS. EPPERSON: Yeah. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: This is all 4 wonderful stuff. I agree that kids should be 5 brought up -- 6 MS. EPPERSON: Yeah. The strip club 7 takes away the focus of the family by a husband 8 leaving his family for a time period and going 9 away. And he comes back home. He's distracted, 10 tired. And he can't put forth the energy into his 11 children, wife, and family. And it is poison. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So you're 13 philosophically opposed, due to its impact on the 14 family? 15 MS. EPPERSON: Yeah. And I am for 16 healthy living. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 18 Committee? Questions by Counsel? 19 You can't ask that lady her age. 20 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: She arrived in 1958. 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So she came the year 22 that she was born. We'll leave it at that. Thank 23 you for your testimony. Okay. 24 So that's the end of testimony in 25 opposition. We're going to take about a 30-plus 175 1 minute break. So we will be back around 1 o'clock. 2 (Break taken.) 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. The Licensing 4 Committee will now reconvene. 5 Chaz Hastings? Chaz Hastings, are you 6 here? 7 MR. HASTINGS: Yeah, I'm here. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Brian Ward. 9 Chaz Hastings, Brian Ward. Okay. So only, please, 10 only sit in the first row to my right if you're 11 going to be testifying. So, first, we are going to 12 have Chaz Hastings, and I think Mr. Ward. 13 MR. FERRARO: Brian Ward is coming back. 14 He can be last. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Just make sure he 16 fills out a form. We've get Rick Grainger. Please 17 sit in the first row to expedite your testimony. 18 Craig Plutz (phonetic). 19 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Ploetz. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Ploetz. We're going 21 to be with Brandon Keirns. Brandon Keirns, are you 22 here? Sir, are you testifying? Can you vacate 23 that seat, please, because I just want to have that 24 first row of just people that are going to testify. 25 Mark Hoppe? 176 1 Mark Hoppe, please grab a seat in the 2 first row. 3 Okay. Okay. Chaz Hastings, please raise 4 your right hand to be sworn in. 5 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 6 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 7 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 8 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 9 truth? 10 MR. HASTINGS: Yes. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 12 please? 13 MR. HASTINGS: Chaz Hastings, 11310 West 14 Silver Spring Road in Milwaukee. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What's your 16 testimony? 17 MR. HASTINGS: I'd like to talk on behalf 18 of Silk Exotic today. And the things I'd like to 19 talk about is I'm the owner of the Milwaukee Harley 20 Davidson, which is -- which shares the parking lot 21 with Silk. 22 I bought the facility back in 2005. At 23 that point, I think Silk had already been in 24 operation for two years. When I first bought the 25 place, I wondered what it would be like, even as a 177 1 Harley dealer, to share a parking lot with a 2 gentlemen's club. 3 But what I can say to everyone out there, 4 at this point, eight years later, is, I honestly 5 can't say it couldn't have been a better 6 experience. I mean, the security that's provided 7 there. 8 We've had some instances in our 9 neighborhood before where over at the Hampton, over 10 at Athens, some other locations have had issues in 11 their parking lot late in the evening. Well, 12 having Silk as a neighbor for me has been great 13 because I have security in the lot at all times. 14 You know, we do a lot of events that 15 coincide with each other, and the fact that they do 16 such a good job of keeping all their activities on 17 the inside, you know, makes it so that 50 percent 18 of my customers are female based. 19 And they have no problem coming to the 20 dealership knowing that activity is taking place 21 inside the building. Since I have been listening 22 to opposition speaking, and that was the concern 23 about the property values. 24 My building has been re-mortgaged -- or 25 I've re-mortgaged it three times since 2005, and 178 1 not once in any of the reports that I have gotten 2 something negative that I share a parking lot or 3 even have an easement with a gentlemen's club. 4 The other thing I heard was with the 5 loitering and the human trafficking. You know, I 6 sit on the second floor of my building, so I look 7 out my window all of the time. So I see the 8 activity in both my parking lot and theirs. 9 Many of the vehicles that pull up are 10 very nice vehicles, and I see people with suits 11 getting out. That's certainly daytime. Now, I 12 know at nighttime, that's a different crowd. And 13 I've also been there at night where I don't see the 14 loitering. 15 And for the entertainers, you know, most 16 of them are dropped off right at the door. So you 17 don't see them walking around in the parking lot. 18 And I'm sure my associates, the guys in the back, 19 would enjoy if they were walking around. But that 20 hasn't been the case. They get dropped off right 21 at the door and go inside. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: You mentioned 23 something about refinancing, and that you've got 24 some sort of documentation. Can you go over that 25 part of your testimony again? 179 1 MR. HASTINGS: Sure. Many times when you 2 do a refinance, there is actually an appraisal 3 that's written, and then they do the comps. And 4 they talk about any negative or positive impacts on 5 your facility. And never once in the three reports 6 that I have gotten says anything about, you know, 7 anything that would be adverse to the value of my 8 property or business. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Okay. 10 Questions by Committee? 11 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 13 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Sir, I frequent your 14 business. My motorcycle is maintained by you -- or 15 your guys in the back. 16 My question to you, and I'm familiar with 17 the location of your office, you mention it's on 18 the second floor. Have you ever had any reason to 19 believe that there is drug use going on either in 20 your parking lot or Mr. Ferraro's parking lot? 21 MR. HASTINGS: Not once. And I can 22 actually say, you know, I've known John for a long 23 time. And I truthfully believe that if there was 24 any situation like that, he would squash that, 25 because I'm also a tavern owner, and we respect our 180 1 licenses greatly. And nothing would be worth 2 allowing that behavior to go on to jeopardize our 3 livelihoods. 4 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: You do own two or three 5 taverns -- 6 MR. HASTINGS: Six. 7 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Sorry. Don't want to 8 undersell you. With regards to the trafficking 9 that you and the others have brought up, have you 10 ever seen any what appeared to the untrained eye 11 as, you know, coercion on the parts of male and 12 female towards one of the dancers going in or out 13 of Mr. Ferraro's place? 14 MR. HASTINGS: I've never seen anything 15 like that. And as a matter of fact, since I own 16 six taverns, there is some crossover with some of 17 the associates that both John and I hire where he's 18 hired some of the gals that were bartenders of 19 mine, and I hire some of his entertainers that have 20 become some of my most successful bartenders. 21 And not once have I heard them talk about 22 any shady instances where I would think there was 23 anything shady going on. 24 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: You mention you've 25 known Mr. Ferraro for some time. Do you know of 181 1 any efforts that he employs to ensure there is no 2 drug use or pimping or human trafficking in his 3 facility? 4 MR. HASTINGS: I think the biggest thing 5 that he does is he's there pretty much seven days a 6 week. And he's very involved with his business as 7 is his other partners. And the security staff, you 8 know, again, I use some of those same guys for my 9 activities. 10 And there's no screwing around with that. 11 They all understand clearly what their expectations 12 are. 13 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: And, again, because I'm 14 familiar with the parking lot, it's a fairly good 15 sized chunk of real estate. When you have joint 16 ventures, about the only time that I've ever been 17 up there that you've had, in my opinion, an issue 18 with the spill-out of the facilities whether it's 19 yours or his was during the Harley fest where the 20 parking was pretty tough. I wouldn't want to have 21 to drive a car in there, and I hadn't. Can you 22 explain how you guys handle parking in a really 23 extreme situation, such as the Harley fest? 24 MR. HASTINGS: Sure. And event like that 25 is every five years, but then we also have the 182 1 Milwaukee Rally every year. And John and I worked 2 with the city with Jim Brown with the Parking 3 Committee. 4 And we've gone down and met -- as a 5 matter of fact, for the last event we went out and 6 got three additional acres of off-site that we 7 rented, and then we provided shuttle buses. 8 And then on Saturday when it was busiest, 9 I was out there with six other Milwaukee policemen 10 directing traffic to, you know, make sure that the 11 neighborhood was respected. 12 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you very much. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 14 Committee? 15 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 17 ALDERMAN KOVAC: You mentioned that you 18 had your nearby business appraised and have seen no 19 effect, correct? 20 MR. HASTINGS: I said I've seen no 21 negative effect that would be from the gentlemen's 22 club. 23 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Yeah. And that business 24 is? 25 MR. HASTINGS: Milwaukee Harley Davidson. 183 1 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Did you ask if it was 2 instead an apartment building? 3 MR. HASTINGS: You really don't talk to 4 the appraisers, but if there was anything negative, 5 it would be put in there. And I can tell you with 6 Harley Davidson's outreach right now and the amount 7 of youth that they're going after with young 8 adults, and then for the women, I believe that 9 would have come up, at some point. 10 And I can also say that Harley Davidson 11 Corporate has chosen me numerous times to put on 12 events -- 13 ALDERMAN KOVAC: But -- no. I think you 14 get what I'm getting at. I'm not an expert 15 appraiser, either. But the idea that a place to go 16 buy motorcycles and a gentlemen's club have an 17 ability to be compatible. But an apartment 18 building might be a different matter. 19 MR. HASTINGS: I think that would be just 20 a matter of opinion, because I think customers, 21 half of which are female, and, you know, they have 22 no problem coming to my dealership. If you didn't 23 know what Silk was, then you wouldn't know what it 24 is, standing outside in the parking lot, other than 25 a business with no windows that keeps their parking 184 1 lot very clean. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. And -- 3 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Mr. Chair. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Perez. 5 ALDERMAN PEREZ: I just want to be clear, 6 the procedure and policies that he has with -- that 7 Silk has at their location would transfer over to 8 this new location, and you think it would work 9 well? 10 MR. HASTINGS: I have no doubt it would. 11 At this point, I have been to John's other 12 locations before, and it's a blueprint that he 13 takes from one location to the next. 14 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Are the other locations 15 comparable to the Third Street location? 16 MR. HASTINGS: I believe Juneau is in a 17 downtown location, and Madison is not exactly like 18 Third Street. 19 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Because I think it's 20 pretty dense and pretty busy with the apartments. 21 MR. HASTINGS: I can tell you with the 22 Hampton right across the street and Athens, those 23 are both businesses that appreciate both myself and 24 Silk Exotic being that close because they do pick 25 up a lot of additional business from us. 185 1 ALDERMAN PEREZ: How late are you open 2 until? 3 MR. HASTINGS: Most nights, 7 o'clock. 4 But we have some nights where we are open as late 5 as midnight. 6 ALDERMAN PEREZ: And do your female 7 customers come up until 7 o'clock, not a problem? 8 MR. HASTINGS: Oh, for sure. They do, 9 and they have to drive right past Silk's front 10 door. 11 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Thank you. 12 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 14 ALDERMAN KOVAC: I just checked. I've 15 never been to Juneau, but I just checked the 16 population downtown and the surrounding 17 neighborhoods; 2,784 total. 18 MR. HASTINGS: Well, in a one block area, 19 that's probably close to what it would be in a 20 block. 21 MR. FERRARO: 1800 in a block. 22 ALDERMAN KOVAC: "Downtown Juneau." I'm 23 just reacting to those two words being put 24 together. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 186 1 Attorney Whitcomb, any questions? 2 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Yes. Thank you. 3 Mr. Hastings, you did draft a letter for 4 consideration of the Committee? 5 MR. HASTINGS: Yes. 6 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And I'll just show 7 you that letter. 8 MR. HASTINGS: Yes, sir. 9 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And to the Committee. 10 MR. HASTINGS: Yes. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Can you explain 12 what's contained in the letter or summarize what's 13 contained in the letter? 14 MR. HASTINGS: Pretty much what I just 15 said. Essentially, that they've been a great 16 neighbor, and we work very well together. And 17 there's been numerous events where John and I plan 18 the event together, like the 110th Anniversary or 19 the 105th, and we actually formed a separate 20 company. And we worked together on that and worked 21 on several things. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. With that, 23 Alderman Perez will move to put the letter into the 24 record. There being no objections, so ordered. 25 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Mr. Hastings, in your 187 1 professional career as a businessman, you've had 2 the opportunity to come in contact with many 3 business partners, would that be accurate? 4 MR. HASTINGS: Correct. 5 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And there are some 6 partners that are difficult to get along with, and 7 there are some partners that are easy to get along 8 with. Would that be accurate? 9 MR. HASTINGS: Yes. 10 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And when you arrived 11 at the location of Silk, was that eight years ago, 12 and you met Mr. Ferraro, you had -- you testified 13 that he had initial concerns. Over the course of 14 the eight years that you've shared a parking lot 15 with Silk, have any concerns that you've had been 16 addressed professionally, adequately, and 17 competently by Mr. Ferraro? 18 MR. HASTINGS: I'd say most definitely. 19 As a matter of fact, specifically, one of my 20 concerns, initially, was the previous owner that I 21 bought the business from and who John bought his 22 business from had an agreement on some revenue 23 sharing in the parking lot or no revenue sharing 24 from different activities that we could do. 25 And I went to John after about a year, 188 1 and I said, I don't think this is very fair. And 2 he saw the case where if I improve the business, it 3 would improve it for him, so we came together 4 collectively without even knowing each other with a 5 solution we were both happy with. 6 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And to your 7 knowledge, he's a man of his word? 8 MR. HASTINGS: Yes. 9 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 11 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Just a point of 12 clarification. So you're not just an adjacent 13 businessowner; you actually are a business partner 14 of the applicant? 15 MR. HASTINGS: We had an LLC for the 16 110th Anniversary that we opened up for the event, 17 and then we disband. So it existed for 30 days 18 just because we had some common costs. But, no, I 19 don't own any part of Silk Exotic. Harley Davidson 20 would not allow me to do that. 21 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I wasn't suggesting 22 that it was Silk. I was just trying to figure out 23 what that connection was. Thank you. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Is that a one-time 25 LLC, or is that renewed every year for 30 days? 189 1 MR. HASTINGS: No. The next one would be 2 the 115th Anniversary. We change the name every 3 five years. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. So you engage 5 in a 30-day contract -- 6 MR. HASTINGS: Yes. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: -- basis? Okay. 8 Any further questions. 9 ALDERMAN PEREZ: I do, Mr. Chair. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Perez. 11 ALDERMAN PEREZ: How far would you say is 12 the closest residential neighborhood? 13 MR. HASTINGS: I would say it's within a 14 half-mile, pretty easily. 15 ALDERMAN PEREZ: The closest 16 neighborhood? 17 MR. HASTINGS: We've worked with 18 Alderman Bohl before because when we do our 19 concerts or venues, and we have some concerns with 20 the neighbors behind us which are, you know, as a 21 crow flies, it's less than a half-mile, I'm sure. 22 ALDERMAN PEREZ: I'm familiar with the 23 location. 24 MR. HASTINGS: Okay. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Any further 190 1 questions? Okay. 2 Thank you for your testimony. 3 Next up is Rick Grainger. Please raise 4 your right hand to be sworn in. 5 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 6 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 7 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 8 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 9 truth? 10 MR. GRAINGER: Yes. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 12 please? 13 MR. GRAINGER: My name is Rick Grainger. 14 I live at 10532 West Ray Avenue, Milwaukee. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What's your 16 testimony? 17 MR. GRAINGER: I'm really hard of 18 hearing. Sorry. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: What's your 20 testimony? 21 MR. GRAINGER: My testimony is I'm here 22 to support the license. I've been a patron of Silk 23 for the past 10 years. I've lived within at least 24 a half-mile of the location for the last 20 years. 25 I knew what the place was like before 191 1 Silk ever bought the place. And ever since Silk 2 bought the place, I've been very pleased with how 3 they keep the place up. It's -- the parking lot is 4 clean all of the time, and as Chaz stated, the 5 business of Silk is kept inside Silk. 6 And that's one thing that a lot of people 7 seem to have this perception that people have 8 things going on outside of Silk. That's not true. 9 Like I said, I've been going there for the last ten 10 years. I've actually been to the one in Juneau as 11 well. 12 I probably have 15 years of history of 13 going to Juneau and going to the club before it was 14 Silk. We have a golf outing every year. And since 15 it's become Silk Juneau, it's much safer. We enjoy 16 going there, and we stay much longer. 17 And what I can say about safety is, I 18 travel all over the United States, and basically 19 all over the world, and one of the things that some 20 of our customers do is, we like to go to the 21 gentlemen's clubs. I've been to a lot of 22 gentlemen's clubs all over the world. 23 I have never been to a club where I feel 24 as safe as I do at Silk, and the reason for that is 25 the employees stay there. I've been talking to the 192 1 same bartender since I've been going there. Some 2 of the bouncers who I know personally, I have 3 mentored in school. 4 One of them is going to MATC right now, 5 which I talked him into being an electrical 6 engineer, which I am. There's a lot of kids that 7 use these jobs at Silk to launch their careers. I 8 don't know how many nurses, lawyers, stockbrokers 9 have worked at Silk either as a dancer or some 10 other job. 11 You would be shocked at how many 12 different employees have actually been there and 13 have launched their career going somewhere else. 14 Because today's world is a little different. 15 You have to make a lot of money to go to 16 Marquette, which I graduated from, $120,000 for a 17 four-year degree. And this place provides those 18 type of jobs. 19 Now, it's not for everybody, and I 20 respect that. But out of -- out of all the owners 21 that I have seen, John's probably one of the best. 22 And because he cares about his customers, and if 23 something is going wrong, he's going to solve the 24 problem. All you have to say is, John, I've got a 25 problem. John's going to solve the problem. 193 1 And if you're worried about safety, I 2 would contact John and talk to John about it, and 3 he'll solve the problem. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. We got the 5 idea here. Questions by Committee? Questions by 6 Attorney Whitcomb? 7 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No. Thank you. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you for your 9 testimony. 10 Next speaker is Craig Pletz (phonetic). 11 MR. PLOETZ: Ploetz. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Ploetz. Please 13 raise your right hand to be sworn in. 14 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 15 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 16 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 17 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 18 truth? 19 MR. PLOETZ: I do. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 21 please? 22 MR. PLOETZ: Craig Ploetz, W162N11062 23 Ashbury Circle. It's Germantown. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What's your 25 testimony? 194 1 MR. PLOETZ: I'm one of the owners of 2 Silk Exotic. I'm happy that sometimes John takes 3 the heat. I know that John laughed it off at the 4 point where he had his face superimposed over 5 Al Pacino's. I think it's a ridiculous ad. He did 6 laugh it off. I didn't. 7 I didn't know people -- maybe he didn't 8 know the people, or he was a Pacino fan. I'm more 9 of a DeNiro fan. But on the side, John didn't 10 deserve that. 11 And I started to realize -- when this 12 first started, these first hearings years ago, the 13 discussion surrounded public urination and traffic 14 congestion. Then we started spinning into the 15 ideas of prostitution, drug sales. Now, today, it 16 seems like this circus is going to three rings with 17 human trafficking. What's next, human sacrificing? 18 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Well -- well -- 20 MR. PLOETZ: What in the world -- 21 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 22 MR. PLOETZ: I apologize if that seems 23 dramatic. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: We'd just like to 25 hear your testimony. 195 1 MR. PLOETZ: But my point is that it 2 seems to spin out of control. The people who are 3 in opposition have not been to my club. If you'd 4 seen things -- 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I have. 6 MR. PLOETZ: If you have, maybe you'd see 7 things differently. I'd love to give you a tour. 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I don't. 9 MR. PLOETZ: The fact is if, you knew 10 this business, you'd know that we run a very good 11 operation. Our facts, our history speaks for 12 itself. Are people to believe that the good men 13 and women of the Milwaukee Police Department aren't 14 doing their job because we have not had a -- a 15 tavern report in the past ten years? 16 I have been there going on 30 years. 17 30 years, I've been involved through the Attic, I 18 was a manager, through Kickers Corral, through 19 Fantasia, through Insomnia. I've been there 20 through all of those years and was fortunate enough 21 to become an owner in 2003. 22 But when you can't find something of 23 substance, these ridiculous, vulgar accusations 24 come out. And that's what they are. People think 25 we're some Martin Scorsese types. They forget who 196 1 we are. 2 I'm a product of the Milwaukee Public 3 Schools. I went to Maple Tree Elementary. I went 4 to John Burroughs Middle School. I'm a graduate of 5 James Madison High School -- 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Hold on a 7 second. 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And you wind up in 9 a strip club? 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: No talking in the 11 audience here. You'll have your opportunity to 12 speak, and then we're going to make sure that 13 you're respected, and no one's going to interrupt 14 you while you're speaking. 15 But, sir, you know, this is great you 16 graduated from all of these schools and so forth. 17 But we really need the testimony to just be 18 specific to this application right here. Okay. 19 You're kind of going all over the place. 20 MR. PLOETZ: Well, what I would say is 21 we're seeing preconceived notions at play. When I 22 talk to the women on the staff or on the stage at 23 my club, I tell them you're going to have people 24 come in with preconceived notions. As the people 25 here have, some of them in opposition. 197 1 With these preconceived notions, if they 2 walk in and they act on those preconceived notions, 3 they'll find out what type of character I have. I 4 have watched Silk grow over the past ten years 5 without any problems. I have watched the Juneau 6 club for the past eight years, not one problem. 7 We work closely with Dane County and the 8 past four years, not an issue. There haven't been 9 the issues that you have been simply throwing off 10 the cuff and making to believe that these are facts 11 in this case. They're not. 12 And on a personal issue, I'd like to 13 admit when I first investigated opening Silk, I had 14 my own doubts. I wondered how we could operate 15 within a realm where it's respectable. I grew up 16 with three sisters. I have a daughter of my own. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Sir, we got 18 the idea. It's a respectable business, respectable 19 operation. You're doing your due diligence. Okay. 20 Is there anything -- we just don't need that 21 repeated from different angles. 22 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Mr. -- let me ask you 23 a few questions. The entertainers are private 24 contractors, is that correct? 25 MR. PLOETZ: Correct. 198 1 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: The entertainers 2 solicit the opportunity to work at Silk, is that 3 correct? 4 MR. PLOETZ: Correct. 5 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: The entertainers are 6 represented by an agent, is that correct? 7 MR. PLOETZ: Yes. 8 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: As with a band, as 9 with a baseball player, as with a football player, 10 they have agents, correct? 11 MR. PLOETZ: Correct. 12 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Once an entertainer 13 is contracted with Silk through their agent, how is 14 that entertainer protected working on stage at 15 Silk? 16 MR. PLOETZ: There is a vast protocol in 17 place to protect the entertainers. From the moment 18 they get out of their car -- 19 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Describe it, please. 20 MR. PLOETZ: -- they are escorted into 21 the club, number one. 22 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Then where do they 23 go? 24 MR. PLOETZ: Then they go back to the 25 back area where there is a dressing area and 199 1 lockers. 2 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Who manages the 3 dressing room? 4 MR. PLOETZ: We have three house parents 5 that are responsible for -- 6 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Describe the 7 responsibility of a house parent. 8 MR. PLOETZ: House parent is to make sure 9 that they get a locker, that they have a safe place 10 to stow their gear. They are given a time when 11 they're to go on stage. They are given -- many 12 times if they're needed, even rides, actually after 13 the club is closed. 14 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Is it the house 15 parent and the management that explains to these 16 contractors of the expected code of conduct in the 17 entertainers? 18 MR. PLOETZ: The house parent is one, but 19 also John and I and my floor -- my GM is also 20 responsible for letting these girls know what the 21 protocols are in place to protect their safety 22 there and also fall within the rules set by the 23 ordinances. 24 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: What about the use of 25 drugs, is that tolerated? 200 1 MR. PLOETZ: No. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I'm sorry. 3 Attorney Whitcomb, you really need to use 4 that microphone. You can use -- you got two of 5 them there. See, John will let you use his. 6 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And these 7 entertainers, are they, at times, nationally 8 scoped? 9 MR. PLOETZ: Yes. 10 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: These entertainers, 11 is this an occupation for them? 12 MR. PLOETZ: Some of the entertainers, 13 the national ones, yes. 14 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: The local ones, would 15 that mean entertainers from the State of Wisconsin? 16 MR. PLOETZ: We have some national 17 entertainers who are employed here in Wisconsin. 18 But the local girls who work there, there is 19 oftentimes subsidiary income, some other income 20 that they have. They have a regular job, and some 21 work part-time there. Some, that's a full-time 22 job, and that's their only source of income. 23 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: So Silk provides an 24 opportunity for part-time work as well as full-time 25 work for entertainers? 201 1 MR. PLOETZ: Correct. 2 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Prior to the facility 3 becoming Silk ten years ago about this month, you 4 worked at that location, correct? 5 MR. PLOETZ: Correct. 6 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And, at that 7 location, it was a licensed tavern facility? 8 MR. PLOETZ: Yes. 9 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Were there greater 10 problems with customers and patrons at the facility 11 before it became Silk than there are at the Silk 12 now? 13 MR. PLOETZ: Yes. 14 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Is that attributable 15 to the fact that Silk is an entertainment facility 16 and the other licensed -- licensed facilities were 17 tavern by nature? 18 MR. PLOETZ: The -- the way that the 19 clubs atmosphere works, and many times at the 20 nightclub, you had a much more nomadic crowd. 21 People wandered around. People got in the face of 22 other guys' girlfriends and wives. And many times, 23 you had a lot of incidents along those lines. 24 With Silk Exotic, gentlemen come in. 25 They sit down. They watch the show. There are 202 1 much fewer fights. 2 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: There is not a great 3 deal of interaction of patrons at Silk? 4 MR. PLOETZ: Correct. 5 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No further questions. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: When you said, "much 7 fewer fights," how many are you referring to? 8 MR. PLOETZ: As the tavern report 9 suggests also, we haven't had any. But it was a 10 more volatile crowd. I'm talking '84 to '88,'89. 11 Could I add one more thing? 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Sure. 13 MR. PLOETZ: I just want to mention that 14 in Madison, one of the things that we have found is 15 that the hotels, the Marriott has thanked us. The 16 Marriott has said their convention bookings have 17 improved. They've also got shuttles from the 18 Marriott Comfort Suite and the Holiday Inn to 19 accommodate people coming to and from their 20 location. 21 So they have said this has improved their 22 convention business. I'd also like to mention that 23 30 percent of our audiences -- there was a 24 bachelorette party mentioned earlier. Bachelorette 25 parties accommodate 30 percent and the women's 203 1 participation at our club in Milwaukee, 40 percent 2 in Madison. 3 These are locations that we pride 4 ourselves on being safe, secure, and respectful. 5 Not just to the patrons, but also to the girls on 6 the staff and the women on our stage. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Have you been in 8 communication with the Marriott in Milwaukee? 9 MR. PLOETZ: No, I have not. I have been 10 with the Marriott in Madison. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. We're going 12 to go to Alderwoman Coggs and then Alderman Perez. 13 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Earlier you were 14 talking about a circus, and you talked about human 15 trafficking, and then you talked about a three-ring 16 circus -- 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Speak up. 18 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: -- do you understand 19 that the concerns raised about human trafficking 20 are valid ones? 21 MR. PLOETZ: I do. I do, and I did not 22 want to make light of that topic. 23 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You did. 24 MR. PLOETZ: But I found it -- I found it 25 -- this is my -- this is my home. This is a 204 1 business I've been at for 30 years, and I pride 2 myself on the fact that we really look out for the 3 girls. 4 We don't just contract women and put 5 them -- set them loose. These are close 6 relationships that we've had with some for ten 7 years. We know the girls that are on the stage. 8 We know the women that come into our club. 9 We have very close ties with many of 10 them. Some of them we have actually helped get 11 services. Helped -- 12 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Do you think any of 13 the women that you've had dancing while you've been 14 involved in the ownership have ever been involved 15 in human trafficking? 16 MR. PLOETZ: No. That, I can honestly 17 say I have never come across that situation. 18 Never. 19 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Thank you. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 21 Alderman Perez. 22 ALDERMAN PEREZ: You mentioned that -- 23 have you had any fights or situations that have 24 happened at Silk that the police just weren't -- 25 didn't come to? So they're not on the tavern 205 1 report that reflects one thing, but are you telling 2 me you haven't had any fights at Silk? 3 MR. PLOETZ: As far as fisticuffs or 4 people being hit and things? No. Removing people 5 from the premises? Yes. 6 ALDERMAN PEREZ: People actually fighting 7 in your parking lot where the police have not been 8 called to handle the situation? 9 MR. PLOETZ: I have seen patrons in the 10 parking lot, yes. And we've broken it up. Yeah. 11 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 13 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: These agents that you 14 say are independent contractor dancers work 15 through, and they do the deal with you all, who are 16 these agents? 17 MR. PLOETZ: That would be Legacy 18 Entertainment. Legacy, we work with. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any other 20 questions by Committee Members? 21 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chair. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 23 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: You keep referring to 24 Silk up on Silver Spring as your club. How 25 familiar are you with the workings of the other 206 1 clubs or the surrounding properties, say like up at 2 Juneau? 3 MR. PLOETZ: I am at Juneau every week. 4 I am the owner that is at each location. I work 5 80 hours a week. 6 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Because Alderman Kovac 7 is much faster with typing and computer stuff, but 8 he did point out that Juneau is the county seat. 9 And I was just looking up, and the Department of 10 Health and Human Services is literally located 11 right across the street from the gentlemen's club 12 up in Juneau. 13 MR. PLOETZ: Yes. And the police 14 department is -- 15 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Also right across the 16 street. 17 MR. PLOETZ: Right. Right. 18 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I just point that out 19 because I think that that would speak volumes to 20 the probability or lack thereof of any human 21 trafficking going on, at least at that location. 22 And I appreciate the concern of human trafficking. 23 You mentioned earlier about house 24 parents. And I happen to know one of your -- I 25 would call her a house mother. Looks much like my 207 1 mother. I -- when you say "house parent," it 2 almost sounds as if there are gentlemen that are 3 engaged in that level of contract with the dancers. 4 Are they all men or all women, or is there a mix? 5 MR. PLOETZ: We have two men that work 6 with the women, and we have one woman. She works 7 mostly all the a.m. shifts, and we have some 8 substitutes. 9 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. 10 MR. PLOETZ: May I say one more thing? 11 And I show -- I feel the empathy for the things 12 that I mentioned, especially, again, having a 13 daughter of my own. I raised my two nieces. 14 It was not meant to deflect anything as 15 far as the weight or the importance of this issue. 16 It's just that when it comes to my business, I'm 17 very, very proud of the fact that we do police 18 these things, and we do have the utmost respect, 19 not just for the women who are on our staff but for 20 the women who are on that stage. 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Anything 22 further? 23 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Mr. Chair. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Perez. 25 ALDERMAN PEREZ: So you're saying that 208 1 under your watch or your management watch, that 2 there isn't anything illegal that couldn't happen 3 under your nose inside of your location -- 4 MR. PLOETZ: We -- 5 ALDERMAN PEREZ: -- prostitution, or 6 anything like that? 7 MR. PLOETZ: We take great lengths to 8 guard against things of that sort. As far as 9 prostitution, even with the women that are leaving 10 at the end of the night, we make sure the parking 11 lot is completely empty before the girls are 12 allowed to leave. 13 Now, what they do off our grounds, that's 14 one thing -- 15 ALDERMAN PEREZ: And inside -- 16 MR. PLOETZ: On our -- no. 17 ALDERMAN PEREZ: It couldn't happen under 18 your nose? 19 MR. PLOETZ: I believe that there are 20 things in place, and I don't believe it could 21 happen. No. 22 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 24 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Have you ever received 25 complaints from dancers about being sexually 209 1 assaulted or wrongly touched by your workers? 2 MR. PLOETZ: By my staff? 3 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Yeah. 4 MR. PLOETZ: No. Never. 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 7 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Is there a minimum age 8 for the dancers? 9 MR. PLOETZ: You must be 18 years of age 10 or older. 11 ALDERMAN KOVAC: You keep calling them 12 girls, but they're all adults. 13 My other question is you stated before 14 with human sacrifice. You mentioned a three-ring 15 circus, and you mentioned, I think, as far as I 16 could tell, the three rings where it started with 17 public urination, then it went to drug use, then it 18 went to human trafficking, and then you threw in 19 human sacrifice as the fourth ring. My question 20 is: I understand if you think that there is no 21 public urination or no drug use or no human 22 trafficking associated with your business, you 23 should certainly say so and say so defiantly and 24 proudly. But you almost seem to be questioning why 25 anyone would think those two activities go on with 210 1 a liquor license. And then you seem to backtrack 2 in response to questions. But, clearly, by 3 equating those three things, which not just Silk, 4 but every liquor license and public entertainment 5 license has to deal. Are you suggesting to bring 6 up public urination, drug use, or human trafficking 7 in association with public entertainment and liquor 8 licenses is as ridiculous as human sacrifice? 9 MR. PLOETZ: No. And, again, I apologize 10 concerning that. It was a bit too dramatic. What 11 my intention was "what would be next?" I'm very 12 shocked at -- 13 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So do you really think 14 that that was what was going to be next? 15 MR. PLOETZ: No. I don't, sir. 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: But that was a clear 17 implication of your prepared remarks. 18 MR. PLOETZ: Well, that was actually a 19 bit sarcastic. Again, I apologize. I don't 20 believe there's going to be human sacrifice at my 21 club. 22 ALDERMAN KOVAC: But sarcasm is different 23 than other kinds of commentary. I mean, you know, 24 you were being satirical. You were hoping to, I 25 think, use humor to illustrate a point. So I want 211 1 to figure out what your point was that you were 2 trying to illustrate. 3 Are you suggesting that it's ridiculous 4 to bring you human trafficking in the context of a 5 public entertainment license? 6 MR. PLOETZ: I believe that the topic 7 would be ridiculous with my venue, considering also 8 the fact that we've had such a clean record. We 9 have had no reports. 10 ALDERMAN KOVAC: But you could understand 11 why -- 12 MR. PLOETZ: I understand the importance, 13 sir. 14 ALDERMAN KOVAC: And would you concede 15 that there are other strip clubs where human 16 trafficking does occur? 17 MR. PLOETZ: Oh, I agree. There are 18 other locations where much worse may happen, but 19 not within my business. 20 ALDERMAN KOVAC: But never at your club? 21 MR. PLOETZ: Never at my club. 22 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Sure. Okay. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any other 24 further questions? 25 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. 212 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney Stephens. 2 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Sir, I wanted to give 3 you an opportunity because you began in your 4 testimony talking about the security protocols that 5 you have for the dancers. And you started 6 discussing that in your initial testimony, and you 7 kind of ended at the point where the house parent 8 took over supervision, if you will, of the 9 entertainers. And I think in response to 10 Alderman Perez's questions, you spoke a little bit 11 about that protocol as it relates to the end of the 12 evening when the entertainers are leaving. I think 13 for purposes of the record, because there has been 14 significant amount of testimony about this issue 15 with the entertainers, can you tell us, in your own 16 words, what the protocol is from the moment the 17 dancers come to your facility? 18 And I guess we'll use the Silver Spring 19 address in Milwaukee to the end of the evening when 20 they leave the premises. Can you tell us what that 21 is? 22 MR. PLOETZ: Once the girls have taken to 23 the stage, there are floormen posted at the door. 24 There are floormen posted throughout, one at VIP, 25 one at couch. We have six on each evening. She is 213 1 observed on the stage to make sure she's not 2 touched inappropriately; customers aren't doing 3 anything that are inappropriate. Once she leaves 4 the stage, she's observed. There is always two to 5 three on the floor at all times. 6 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Two to three? 7 MR. PLOETZ: Security that are watching. 8 As far as the other areas in the club, we 9 have 75 cameras throughout the club in Milwaukee 10 that are monitored at all times through two 11 stations. There are two stations where myself or a 12 GM or John could also view. 13 But there are no areas of my club which 14 are left unobserved, aside from bathrooms. So the 15 -- the eye in the sky, so-to-speak -- 16 MR. FERRARO: And bathrooms. 17 THE COURT REPORTER: Pardon me? 18 MR. PLOETZ: That's true. Correct. 19 There is the bathroom attendant that is observing 20 the bathrooms. But with the camera systems and the 21 floormen in place, at all times, when the girl is 22 -- when she checks in with the house parent until 23 when she leaves, as I described earlier, the 24 parking lot is cleared. And the girls are escorted 25 to their cars. 214 1 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And if you could tell 2 us, on any given -- on a popular night, on 3 presumably a Friday or a Saturday night, how many 4 entertainers do you have on a certain night? 5 MR. PLOETZ: We'll probably average 25 6 entertainers during the week. Probably close to 40 7 on the -- on the weekends. And there is only -- 8 usually, there is one to possibly three on stage, 9 at most. 10 And then the rest of the floor is -- they 11 can use the couch rooms or champagne rooms as they 12 suit. 13 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And is it your 14 testimony that there are multiple floormen, as you 15 called them? 16 MR. PLOETZ: Correct. And on weekends, 17 there are up to eight. And if there is a special 18 party, we'll have up to ten security on the staff. 19 If we have a special party, let's say with a large 20 national party that comes in. 21 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And they're watching 22 all of your entertainers throughout the evening? 23 MR. PLOETZ: Yes. They watch the 24 entertainers and the customer base. 25 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Now, in response to 215 1 Alderman Kovac's question about the minimum age you 2 said for your dancers, you said is 18 years old? 3 MR. PLOETZ: Correct. 4 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Do you have an 5 average age of your entertainers? 6 MR. PLOETZ: Well, we have dancers that 7 are up to 56. 8 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Is that a common age? 9 MR. PLOETZ: We have three to four that 10 are in their 50's right now. But I would say that 11 the average age of a woman that would work in our 12 club would be around 31. 13 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Thank you. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. You made 15 mention of the fact that you have an average of 40 16 entertainers on a Saturday night, and then there is 17 no more than one to three on stage at any given 18 time? 19 MR. PLOETZ: Correct. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So the remaining -- 21 can you go into detail of what happens in the couch 22 or champagne room areas with these entertainers? 23 MR. PLOETZ: Well, what would happen is 24 the entertainers would take the gentlemen to a 25 couch room. There is a dance that is private and 216 1 in champagne rooms, it's private again, but they 2 get a bottle of champagne. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: And you talk about 4 dancing. Is it, like, dirty dancing? 5 MR. PLOETZ: There is -- aside from the 6 song, there is no sex in the champagne rooms or 7 things of that sort. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I'm just saying 9 dirty dancing. 10 MR. PLOETZ: It's a provocative, it's an 11 exotic dance. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Is it lap dances and 13 stuff like that? 14 MR. PLOETZ: Correct. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So there's lap 16 dances. Can you describe lap dances for people 17 that are not -- 18 MR. PLOETZ: Well, I don't know if I 19 could do a good job of that. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I'm just trying to 21 get an idea. 22 MR. PLOETZ: Nothing against their 23 professionalism and duties. I wouldn't do it 24 justice. But it is a dance that is danced in 25 front. There is an area for the girl to hold onto. 217 1 She dances provocatively for the gentlemen. It 2 lasts for three minutes. They're very timed, and 3 that's it. 4 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 6 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: To that point, those 7 rooms are monitored by one or more cameras? 8 MR. PLOETZ: Correct. 9 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: And you said that there 10 is a total at that location of 75 cameras that are 11 viewed from different locations. How many of those 12 are -- because much of the conversation this 13 morning was about security outside of the proposed 14 location. How many of those 75 cameras are pointed 15 to the surrounding area, whether it be a parking 16 lot of Silk's or the Harley Davidson museum or 17 even, I would imagine, you would have them all 18 towards the street? 19 MR. FERRARO: Joe, I could probably 20 answer that better, since I do all of the camera 21 work. Outside, there's 4 in the lot, 4 in the 22 rear, and there's 12 outside. Each one of the 23 rooms has one. So there's 4 and 8, 16, and 12. So 24 it's 30. So there's the other. It's actually 72. 25 The other 42 would be inside. We pretty much cover 218 1 every square inch of the entire building. Our 2 entire lot, Silver Spring Road, not Drive, and then 3 all the way over to Harley's building. So we've 4 got -- 5 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: So assuming you had 6 similar camera security outside of the building on 7 Old World Third Street -- you were in the room when 8 I asked the woman whether that alley was lit -- 9 that alley would be under constant video 10 surveillance if you were granted a license? 11 MR. FERRARO: All four sides of the 12 building would be under video surveillance, along 13 with one guy outside at all times through the hours 14 that we are open until the last customer was in 15 their car. 16 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. Thank you. 17 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 19 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I'm trying to find it, 20 but if my memory serves me well, it was mentioned 21 that 30 percent of the projected income is from 22 "other." That is not food, not liquor. So what's 23 the "other"? 24 MR. FERRARO: The admission and then the 25 house fees. The girls pay a house fee to lease the 219 1 space. 2 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: How does that work? 3 How does the house fee work? 4 MR. FERRARO: The entertainers, they pay, 5 depending on when they get there. So if they're 6 there by a certain time, a certain fee by 7 8 o'clock, it's $38. After 8, it goes to $53, and 8 then $10 an hour afterwards. 9 Because they are independent, so we don't 10 set a schedule for them. You can just do a cheaper 11 rate for getting there earlier. And some of them 12 come from the dances in the champagne room, as 13 well. 14 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: You said the fee at 15 the door. How much are you charging at the door? 16 MR. FERRARO: Anywhere from $5 to -- next 17 weekend would be $30. Average would be about $12 18 to $15. But $5 during the day, $10, special 19 events, $15 to $30. 20 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Is there a dress code? 21 MR. FERRARO: Very strict. 22 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: What is it? 23 MR. FERRARO: No sweat pants. No 24 hoodies. No baggy clothes. Baseball caps can be 25 worn but only forward. It's more of an attitude 220 1 code, too. And we pretty much -- a positive 2 attitude is required at all times. 3 So if you come there with a bad attitude 4 or just -- our guys on the floor have been there 5 six, seven, eight, some ten years, and we do 6 eliminate most problems before they get in the 7 door. 8 Once they're in the door, they're harder 9 to get out. It's a very strict dress code. No 10 jerseys. No plain white shirts. No sleeveless 11 shirts. 12 And also if they come out throwing beer 13 cans and things of that sort, they're not getting 14 in the club. 15 MR. FERRARO: The attitude code is 16 probably more important than the dress code. Like, 17 during the day, we'll let some things fly. 18 Obviously, if a guy gets off work, and his shirt is 19 a little dirty because you can see he's a 20 construction guy, we'll let him in. It's an 21 attitude thing. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any further 23 questions? 24 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 221 1 ALDERMAN KOVAC: How many of the rooms 2 have champagne service? 3 MR. PLOETZ: Let's see. Four -- seven. 4 ALDERMAN KOVAC: How many don't? 5 MR. PLOETZ: The -- you don't get -- 6 there's a difference between the couch rooms and 7 champagne. 8 ALDERMAN KOVAC: How many of those are 9 there? 10 MR. PLOETZ: Couch rooms, I think we have 11 20. 12 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Okay. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you for 14 your testimony. Next speaker is Brandon Keirns. 15 Please raise your right hand to be sworn 16 in. 17 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 18 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 19 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 20 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 21 truth? 22 MR. KEIRNS: I do. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 24 please? 25 MR. KEIRNS: Brandon Keirns, K-E-I-R-N-S. 222 1 I reside at 106 Seeboth in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What's your 3 testimony? 4 MR. KEIRNS: Well, I'll start by saying I 5 agree with the application, and I'd like to see it 6 granted for the Class B Tavern and also the Public 7 Entertainment. I first got interested in the 8 application process when they applied for Satin, 9 which was to be located about two blocks away from 10 my residence. 11 I supported that application, and I 12 support this application, as well. I feel like the 13 opposition, there is a lot of fear, uncertainty, 14 and doubt in their operation. I've witnessed 15 similar to the Alderman, the enterprise first-hand, 16 and I don't have any problems with it or their 17 operation. So I'm in support of it. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: How far do you live 19 from this establishment? 20 MR. KEIRNS: From the proposed 21 establishment, I would be maybe one mile. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any other 23 questions by Committee? Questions from Counsel? 24 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No. Thank you. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Before we swear you 223 1 in, we're going to Alberto Gonzalez. 2 Alberto Gonzalez, please grab a seat in the first 3 row. Marco Forlift (phonetic), Marco Forlift. 4 MR. FERRARO: Mr. Ward is here, too. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Mr. Ward, why 6 don't you get in the first row? Did Marco ever 7 show up? 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: He had to leave. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: He left. Okay. 10 Let's see. Joel Harris. 11 MR. HARRIS: I'm here. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Why don't you 13 grab a seat in the first row here? Okay. So after 14 Mr. Hoppe, we're going to take Mr. Ward. 15 Please raise your right hand to be sworn 16 in. 17 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 18 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 19 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 20 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 21 truth? 22 MR. HOPPE: Yes. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 24 please? 25 MR. HOPPE: Mark Hoppe, 100 Main Street, 224 1 Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: What's your 3 testimony? 4 MR. HOPPE: Just, again, quickly just 5 want to reiterate support of the application in 6 front of you guys and reiterate that John and Craig 7 run a great operation. And I think their track 8 record shows that. 9 I don't think you can compare this to 10 other businesses and other bars and other clubs. 11 And it's very well run, impeccable record, and very 12 good business. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: How far do you live 14 from this location? 15 MR. HOPPE: Maybe 15, 18 miles. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 17 Committee? Questions by Counsel? Next speaker. 18 Thank you. Mark Hoppe. Mark Hoppe. Oh, we're 19 taking Mr. Ward here. Mr. Ward is next. 20 Please raise your right hand to be sworn 21 in. 22 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 23 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 24 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 25 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 225 1 truth? 2 MR. WARD: I do. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 4 please. 5 MR. WARD: Brain Ward. 5 -- 6 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Mr. Ward, wait. May 7 I ask him my questions? 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Let him identify 9 himself first. 10 MR. WARD: 543 Fraiser Street, Milwaukee, 11 Wisconsin. 12 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Mr. Ward, would you 13 please describe the present business interest in 14 downtown Milwaukee? 15 MR. WARD: I own Ward's House of Prime 16 and John Hawk's Pub. 17 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Ward's House of 18 Prime, where is that located? 19 MR. WARD: 540 East Mason. 20 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And John Hawk's Pub, 21 where is that located? 22 MR. WARD: 100 East Wisconsin Avenue. 23 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And the clientele at 24 those two facilities, would you please describe 25 that, generally? 226 1 MR. WARD: John Hawk's Pub is a pub 2 atmosphere, but it's a business atmosphere and 3 show-goers. The steakhouse is entertainment, out 4 of town business, more high-end crowd. 5 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And prior to the time 6 you opened Ward's, where were you employed? 7 MR. WARD: I ran Mo's Steakhouse for 8 eight years. 9 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And in your capacity 10 as the owner of the two downtown restaurants now 11 and as manager at Mo's, do you have an opinion as 12 to the positive aspect of an adult entertainment 13 facility in downtown Milwaukee? 14 MR. WARD: I have more of a comment of 15 the clientele that comes to -- and the reality of 16 the clientele that's coming into the restaurants 17 and where they ask to go. And it's a clientele 18 that comes in. They ask where to go after the 19 business. 20 A lot of the people that are coming in 21 from out of town have groups of guys, and they ask 22 us where to go. And listening to testimony earlier 23 and the description of the people that are coming, 24 I just want to be able to state there is a 25 different clientele that comes. 227 1 It is not so much my opinion whether -- 2 and how the club runs, but more the people that 3 actually do come to my establishments that ask us 4 where to go and where we send them. And there is 5 not -- there is not entertainment downtown that we 6 can send the clientele to. 7 And the realty is that there is this 8 group that is looking for places to go, and they're 9 not bad people, and they're not drug users, and 10 they're not people that you would not want in your 11 establishment. 12 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Your clientele at 13 your restaurants are looking for post-dinner adult 14 entertainment, correct? 15 MR. WARD: There are some. Correct. 16 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And the response and 17 your impression that they would -- those customers, 18 be happy or grateful to have a location where adult 19 entertainment is provided in the downtown area? 20 MR. WARD: Correct. 21 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And these people you 22 speak of are primarily adult business people? 23 MR. WARD: Correct. 24 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: They are able to 25 afford your restaurants? 228 1 MR. WARD: Yes. 2 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No other questions. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Where are these two 4 restaurants located in relation to this 5 application? 6 MR. WARD: John Hawk's is on 100 -- it's 7 on Wisconsin and Water. So it is three blocks 8 away. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Three blocks away. 10 And the other location? 11 MR. WARD: I would say six blocks. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. And any other 13 questions by Committee? 14 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Mr. Chair. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Perez. 16 ALDERMAN PEREZ: So on average of your 17 customers a week, how many customers ask? 18 MR. WARD: I would say 20 to 30. 19 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Out of how many? 20 MR. WARD: I would say 700 or 800. 21 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chair. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 23 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: The percentage of your 24 clientele that are family-orientated diners? 25 MR. WARD: I'd say 90 percent, 98 percent 229 1 are family. 2 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Are family. Thank you. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 4 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney Stephens. 6 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Where does your staff 7 instruct these people to go to find that 8 entertainment now? 9 MR. WARD: Right now, they instruct them 10 to either go to On the Border, which is south, or 11 to Silk. 12 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And On the Border is 13 located, do you know where that's located? 14 MR. WARD: Out by Ryan Road, I believe. 15 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Okay. And then the 16 other Silk location on Silver Spring Drive? 17 MR. WARD: Yes. 18 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Are you aware of 19 other adult entertainment clubs downtown? 20 MR. WARD: I know there is Solid Gold 21 down here and the Art's Performing Center. 22 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And that's in the 23 downtown area? 24 MR. WARD: Correct. 25 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: And you don't refer 230 1 them there? 2 MR. WARD: No, we do not. 3 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Okay. Fair enough. 4 Thank you. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: You stated half your 6 customers are family? 7 MR. WARD: Family-orientated. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Can you define 9 "family-orientated"? 10 MR. WARD: To me, what family-orientated 11 means is that people grow up, have families, are 12 not single guys that are looking to come out and 13 just go to a strip club. 14 We do get bachelor parties that come out 15 and have dinner and do that, but that is a very 16 small percentage. It is mostly business clientele 17 that is in from out of town, families that are in 18 for anniversaries, birthdays, events like that. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: When you say, 20 "families," you're talking about kids, as well? 21 MR. WARD: Yes. Kids as well. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So if you had a 23 strip club next door as opposed to six blocks away, 24 do you feel that the families with kids would 25 patronize your business as frequently? 231 1 MR. WARD: I believe they would come to 2 my restaurants. I am more of a destination 3 location. 4 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 6 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: There's just a point 7 of clarification. Maybe the attorney can help me 8 clarify it. In this gentlemen's testimony, he 9 spoke to what customers tell him. Is that not 10 hearsay? 11 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Of course. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: There's been some 13 hearsay slipped here and there. 14 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: If I could -- 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney Stephens. 16 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: This is an initial -- 17 a license for an initial application for a liquor 18 license, which is a legislative decision. And as 19 recently as this morning, the Wisconsin Supreme 20 Court announced that these kinds of proceedings are 21 legislative in nature. 22 And that necessarily does not necessarily 23 mean that the rules of evidence does not apply to 24 committees like this. Now, as a matter of course 25 and a matter of the code, we do subscribe to the 232 1 rules of evidence to make sure that we have a fair 2 and equitable way to have hearings. 3 But, of course, there's lots of 4 opportunities when hearsay comes in. And, frankly, 5 it's up to the Committee to make rulings on 6 objections when they're made. If there is no 7 objection to the hearsay coming in, it comes in. 8 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: And let me clarify 9 where my thinking is coming from. Earlier today, 10 we heard testimony from real estate professionals 11 who spoke to their dealings with other real estate 12 professionals and the lack of -- and the potential 13 deals that would go away if, in fact, Silk was 14 granted and a lot of hubbub was made about that 15 being hearsay. 16 I see that as no worse than what he just 17 did, which, we just all kept asking questions. 18 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: I can explain the 19 difference. 20 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: It's not for an 21 explanation. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I'm just telling you 23 from my perspective, and as a Chair, somebody may 24 slip in something and say something that is, you 25 know, hearsay. And personally, for me, if it's 233 1 hearsay, and I don't catch it, and they slip it in, 2 I'm just not going to consider it as part of the 3 evidence because it's hearsay. 4 Okay. So we're not going to stop every 5 single time they slip something in there, if they 6 make a habit of it, and they're continually doing 7 it, we're going to bring it to their attention. 8 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Yeah. 10 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I think for me. It 11 would be better if your customers were here saying 12 that, we go here, and we would love to be able to 13 go to the strip club down here as opposed to 14 somebody coming in with hearsay. That would be 15 more powerful for me than you coming in here and 16 saying whatever. 17 And I know we have the ability to say or 18 not and all that kind of stuff. And I'm just 19 saying, thinking about the public who watch this, 20 we earlier were just talking about hearsay with the 21 real estate guy, and now he just gave a whole bunch 22 of hearsay, and we didn't say anything. 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Like I said, what's 24 hearsay, we're not going to stop him every single 25 time they slip something in there. I'm not going 234 1 to be factoring that into my decision. 2 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Let me finish my 4 train of thought here. You know, but -- you know, 5 things like the proximity of your business, the 6 existing business right next door, that's going to 7 carry a lot more weight than a business that's 8 three blocks away or six blocks away. If they're 9 right next door, "I don't have any problem with the 10 strip club next door." You know, that's more 11 powerful. Your testimony is -- is -- is -- carries 12 weight, and I'm going to factor that into the 13 equation, but there's different weights that you 14 place upon different testimonies. 15 Attorney Stephens. 16 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Just for purposes of 17 the record, I guess if the Chair would indulge us, 18 I would like Mr. Whitcomb to be able to go on the 19 record to say at least what his distinction is 20 between the hearsay that he objected to relative to 21 real estate speculation and then the hearsay that's 22 being discussed about what customers want in their 23 adult entertainment after they have a prime rib. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: We'll entertain your 25 perspective on this. 235 1 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Hearsay is a 2 statement. That's a declaration to prove the fact 3 of the matter asserted. Mr. Ward is, in his 4 testimony, relying on comments by his customers, 5 he's not testifying as to the truth of the comments 6 of the customers. He's testifying as to his 7 reaction to his customers, that being there is not 8 a downtown adult entertainment club that would be a 9 benefit to this customers as he knows his 10 customers. 11 The difference is with the real estate 12 broker, he was going to testify about an opinion 13 about the value of real estate from another party 14 to prove the truth of the fact that he was 15 asserting, that being strip clubs diminish property 16 values. There is a major distinction. 17 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: I don't think that is 18 what he was about to do, but we can move on. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any questions 20 further from the Committee? 21 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 23 ALDERMAN KOVAC: I want to be clear on 24 this idea of 98 percent being family-orientated. 25 But that 98 percent aren't there with children. 236 1 You're just saying they once were children? 2 MR. WARD: I feel that I'm not always 3 with my wife, but I am a family-orientated person. 4 You asked me what I -- 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So what would a non -- 6 are there any in this room, the 2 percent that are 7 not family-orientated, what are they? 8 MR. WARD: I would say they are 9 younger -- 10 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: And single. 11 MR. WARD: The percentage of my 12 restaurant that I do have the times that bachelor 13 parties come in to have a steak before they go out 14 on the town, that is what I'm referring to. The 15 number of times that bachelor parties come. 16 I can't tell you. Sometimes it's once a 17 month. Sometimes it's more. You know, the groups 18 of size range. 19 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So it's not the 20 2 percent were raised by wolves; they're acting 21 like wolves that night. I just wanted to know, 22 raised in a human family, other than you're 23 family-orientated. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thanks for 25 pointing that distinction out. Thank you for your 237 1 testimony. 2 Next speaker is -- 3 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Mr. Chairman. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. You've got 5 another question. Okay. Go ahead. 6 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Nicole O'Leary has to 7 get to work, and she'd like to testify next. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: What's her name? 9 Okay. Nicole O'Leary. 10 Please raise your right hand to be sworn 11 in. 12 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 13 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 14 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 15 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 16 truth? 17 MS. O'LEARY: Yes. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Name and 19 address, please? 20 MS. O'LEARY: Nicole O'Leary, 212 South 21 Barclay, Milwaukee, 53204. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 23 MS. O'LEARY: I guess it's hard to follow 24 that because I was going to speak as a bartender 25 who a lot of customers come to me, high-end 238 1 customers. I bartend at a very nice, upscale bar 2 on Milwaukee Street. Steakhouse, as well, sorry 3 it's not Ward's. But it's not hearsay. 4 I'm telling you from a direct situation, 5 a lot of situations, many gentlemen come to the bar 6 asking me for places to go after, specifically a 7 gentlemen's club. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: But that is hearsay. 9 MS. O'LEARY: No. They're asking me 10 personally, are there any. I'm telling you this is 11 what they're asking me, where to go. So how is 12 that hearsay? 13 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: She's right. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I'm not going to 15 debate that with you. You just testified -- 16 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. 17 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: That's not hearsay. 18 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: The purpose of this 19 is the witness can testify as to what people would 20 ask because I would assume -- 21 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Exactly. 22 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: -- that subject 23 matter, that her next statement is going to be is 24 what her response is to those people -- 25 MS. O'LEARY: Right. 239 1 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: -- her own. 2 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: You're assuming, 3 though. 4 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: I am assuming. But 5 in order to get to the next point, you have to 6 allow that testimony to come in. So I think, let 7 the testimony come in, for what it's worth, from a 8 foundational point of view. 9 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: It is not hearsay. It 10 is not hearsay. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. We're going 12 to indulge you. Were you going in the direction 13 that Attorney Stephens was -- 14 MS. O'LEARY: I was. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Proceed. 16 MS. O'LEARY: Actually, a couple 17 different viewpoints. So I can go from there 18 saying many people often ask me where to go for 19 strip clubs and gentlemen's clubs. And I would 20 send them to Silk because that is the high-end 21 club. It's further away, but it's where many 22 people would prefer to go. 23 Secondly, safety-wise, I can speak to 24 that matter alone because this is not hearsay. I 25 have been to Silk personally, and I've also 240 1 frequented a lot of downtown bars. 2 I live downtown. I go out a lot, like I 3 just said. And I feel safer in the Silk 4 establishment coming and going as compared to many 5 of the other downtown bars. As a female, I think 6 that is very important. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. And you live 8 on Barclay Street? 9 MS. O'LEARY: Yes. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: And how far is that 11 from this establishment? 12 MS. O'LEARY: About a mile. 13 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Any questions by the 14 Committee? 15 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chair. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 17 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Only because I never 18 know where the private eyes are following me and 19 worried about what I see and do and who I talk to, 20 I want to be transparent in the next couple of 21 questions and comments I have for Ms. O'Leary. 22 Ms. O'Leary, you do not work for Silk? 23 MS. O'LEARY: No. 24 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: You and I know each 25 other? 241 1 MS. O'LEARY: Hi, Mr. Dudzik. 2 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Mr. Dudzik. 3 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: You know me how? 4 MS. O'LEARY: He used to chaperone at my 5 grade school, St. Matthias, all the school dances. 6 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: And so -- 7 MS. O'LEARY: He has a son there. 8 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: And so when someone 9 like yourself presents yourself to me or some of my 10 colleagues, one might assume any number of things, 11 but the important thing that you're stating here 12 today is that from your experience at working at 13 one of our nicer restaurants -- and I've been to 14 Carnevor -- is that there is a desire for this type 15 of entertainment in a downtown area? 16 MS. O'LEARY: All of the time. 17 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I make my statements in 18 a rather uncomfortable manner only because I don't 19 want anyone to think that I'm bragging because I 20 know Ms. O'Leary. Thank you. 21 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. To those 22 people that are asking for this type of 23 establishment, do any of them live downtown? 24 MS. O'LEARY: Yes. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Do they live 242 1 in the vicinity of this applicant? 2 MS. O'LEARY: I wouldn't -- I don't know 3 their specific address. A lot of customers come 4 ask for gentlemen's clubs. Period. And I send 5 them to Silk. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Because one of the 7 things that the Committee considers is the 8 neighborhoods that are being impacted. It's real 9 easy for people to say, I support this, hey, it's 10 two miles away, you know, you're not -- it's a 11 little bit of a different situation. 12 MS. O'LEARY: I completely understand 13 that. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Do you have any more 15 questions? 16 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chair. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Wait. Alderman 18 Perez, do you have a question? Okay. And then 19 we'll go to Alderman Dudzik. 20 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Have you been to the 21 other locations downtown, the others? 22 MS. O'LEARY: The other two? 23 ALDERMAN PEREZ: The other exotic dancing 24 clubs. 25 MS. O'LEARY: Yes, I have. 243 1 ALDERMAN PEREZ: And you don't refer 2 those because? 3 MS. O'LEARY: They're kind of dingy, and 4 they're not to the scale that the clientele would 5 prefer to go to. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 7 Alderman Dudzik. 8 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: No. I'd like to save 9 my comments for later on, I think. Thank you. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Counsel, did 11 you have any questions? 12 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Just generally, when 13 you have made recommendations for customers to 14 which you attend to go to Silk, are they people 15 from out of town as well as people from Milwaukee? 16 MS. O'LEARY: Yes. 17 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Nothing further, 18 Mr. Chairman. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you for your 20 testimony. The next speaker is Leland Gook -- Guk. 21 Mr. Alberto, did we call you? We called you 22 already? 23 MR. GONZALEZ: No. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Why don't we take 25 you up here because I already called -- who is -- 244 1 Counsel, did you say Joel Harris was under some 2 kind of time constraint? 3 MR. HARRIS: I'm good. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Leland Guk, Joel 5 Harris, Shane Kowal, why don't you get a seat in 6 the first row? He's here to testify, and then the 7 last one for right now is Davis Weir. 8 Okay. Can you grab a seat, please? 9 Mr. Gonzalez, please raise your right hand to be 10 sworn in. 11 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 12 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 13 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 14 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 15 truth? 16 MR. GONZALEZ: My name is Alberto 17 Gonzalez. I live at 222 South 3rd Street. I've 18 been working for Silk Exotic for over six years 19 now, and actually what I'm wearing right now is our 20 security outfit. I know there was some concern 21 about us looking very intimidating to some of the 22 customers at the preliminary hearing. Which is 23 kind of -- you know, got me upset. But I wanted to 24 show exactly what we do wear at the front door as 25 we do greet our customers. I've been working 245 1 security since I was 18 years old, and I am now 31. 2 This is by far -- I've worked downtown 3 establishments. I've worked bars, taverns, 4 specialized security, private security. And this 5 working for Silk Exotic is by far has been hands 6 above the rest, the most professional I've ever 7 worked. 8 There is a very high standard for the 9 security staff. The dress code, obviously, is one. 10 Attitude code is probably above the dress code. 11 There are probably a lot of people that we turn 12 away that are in suits, and we do turn them away. 13 Or they've been drinking too much, and, 14 you know, it's -- we don't just check IDs and let 15 you through. We check IDs, and we see how your day 16 has been going, and we judge by that. So the 17 security is very, very put at a high pedestal at 18 Silk Exotic. 19 So there was also a 16-week training 20 course before I was ever able to be on the floor by 21 myself. So 16 weeks of me basically following 22 somebody being trained on how to conduct myself, 23 how to watch for things from the girls -- for the 24 women to the patrons to every aspect of, you know. 25 Also, I know the issue of cleanliness. 246 1 At the end of our shift, it is mandatory we go pick 2 up all of the trash in the parking lot. It's not 3 one of my favorite duties at 3, 4 in the morning or 4 at 6 in the morning. But it does have to be done. 5 And we've went as far as going to the gas 6 station, which is, you know, a block and a half 7 away, picking up garbage all the way from the club 8 parking lot all the way to the gas station. 9 We do have, you know, one of our guys go 10 into the gas station and make sure that any of the 11 entertainers that need to fill up with gas are safe 12 and go to the freeway from there. So we do take 13 our security very seriously. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any questions 15 by Committee? Questions by Counsel? 16 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No, Mr. Chairman. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: And you are the best 18 dressed person here so far. Okay. 19 Alderman Bauman, probably. 20 Okay. Leland Guk, please raise your 21 right hand to be sworn in. 22 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 23 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 24 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 25 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 247 1 truth? 2 MR. GUK: Yes, I do. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 4 please? 5 MR. GUK: Lee Guk, 131 West Oregon 6 Street. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What's your 8 testimony? 9 MR. GUK: I understand people's moral 10 beliefs for or against. I don't want to touch 11 that, at all. I just want to speak on behalf the 12 way they operate their business and the gentlemen 13 that they are. 14 First and foremost, the safety factor. I 15 am a firm believer that a building with a business 16 in it, especially with the hours they run, say from 17 11:00 a.m. to bar time, 2:30 on weekends, even 18 later when their staff is cleaning up and getting 19 everybody safely out. 20 I think it's a better option than having 21 a vacant building downtown. More people with 22 customers being in and out and also their staff, 23 which I do know really paroles as much as they can 24 the area around it. I just think it's a better 25 viable option for safety versus another vacant 248 1 building in our downtown infrastructure. 2 Another point I'd like to bring up with 3 them is I'm a firm believer and a firm supporter 4 that businesses should treat their license as a 5 privilege, not a right. 6 I feel that these gentlemen really, truly 7 take their license whether it's a liquor license 8 and everything underneath with the entertainment, 9 seriously, they do not abuse it. And they 10 understand that it can be taken away if they have 11 problems and mess up. 12 And I really feel that nowadays, 13 downtown, it's a very important aspect, that these 14 gentlemen demonstrate that their license is a 15 privilege and not a right. I'm all for more jobs 16 being promoted downtown and them hiring people. 17 I, myself, actually worked for these 18 gentlemen a number of years ago. It's been almost 19 six years that I have worked for them. However, I 20 will attest that these gentlemen, working for them, 21 I did learn a lot of proper ways to run a business. 22 And because of them, nowadays, I actually 23 am a multiple-tavern owner and a property owner 24 downtown and in Walker's Point. And I attribute a 25 lot of the things that I've learned in how to 249 1 properly run a business to them. 2 It's the reason why if I have to come in 3 here for my license, it's due to an unpaid parking 4 ticket and no other reason besides that. So, I -- 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: It's important that you 6 pay those tickets. 7 MR. GUK: I'm all clear now. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: For anybody 9 listening, we don't renew any licenses with any 10 outstanding tickets. 11 MR. GUK: I found that out the hard way. 12 Twice. 13 ALDERMAN PEREZ: You forgot one thing. 14 MR. GUK: Another point recently that I 15 realized, I recently traveled to Minneapolis. And 16 that's a city that I had a lot of fun in and really 17 enjoyed their downtown infrastructure. And I did 18 see a lot of gentlemen's clubs in downtown 19 Minneapolis. 20 I feel that Minneapolis is a good 21 reputation of the people of Wisconsin, more so than 22 the people of Chicago, not to judge it. And I 23 really felt their downtown had a liveliness. And I 24 literally counted about six gentlemen's clubs in 25 the downtown Minneapolis area that I personally 250 1 passed. 2 And I didn't see anything shady, or I 3 didn't feel unsafe walking past these 4 establishments at any time of night. And that's 5 saying something because that's a city that I do 6 not live in. And just men and women alike enjoy 7 their establishment because it's a very safe 8 establishment to frequent. 9 It's -- I kind of like to tell people 10 that have never been there sometimes the adult 11 entertainment aspect of it is secondary when you're 12 in there because when you're there, the atmosphere 13 and the environment they provide is a very fun, 14 safe place to be in. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 16 Committee? Questions by Counsel? 17 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No questions. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you 19 very much for your testimony. 20 Next is Joel Harris. Please raise your 21 right hand to be sworn in. 22 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 23 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 24 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 25 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 251 1 truth? 2 MR. HARRIS: I do. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 4 please? 5 MR. HARRIS: Joel Harris, 4029 North 6 Newhall, Wisconsin. Hard to follow that. That's 7 basically everything I had here. For the past ten 8 years, I have been a bartender, bar manager, even a 9 form of bar owner downtown. And I've gotten to 10 know Mr. Ferraro, his associates, his clientele -- 11 or I'm sorry -- his staff very well, for the past 12 decade. 13 And he runs a very tight shift. Just 14 really no better person than going in with this 15 vacant spot. Like Mr. Ward, I have -- I have run a 16 bar right around corner from Ward's, and I get many 17 requests for gentlemen's clubs. 18 Now, I know it's hearsay and all that, 19 but I have personally been to the other downtown 20 establishments, gentlemen's clubs. And knowing my 21 staff and knowing the clientele, I just -- I can't 22 send them to those locations. 23 So I do refer them to Silk, but sending 24 them out of downtown areas is a lose-lose for every 25 downtown business. You're sending money outside 252 1 the city. That's just -- I'm sorry, but it sucks 2 losing those customers. 3 And then not to mention, if they do go 4 out to drive, they're driving. There's a chance of 5 drinking and driving. Having a downtown 6 gentlemen's club would be ideal for the high-end 7 clientele. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 9 Committee? Questions by Counsel? 10 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: If I understood you 11 correctly, you would agree with the testimony of 12 the witness who testified right before you? 13 MR. HARRIS: 100 percent. 14 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No further questions, 15 Mr. Chair. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you for your 17 testimony. Okay. Shane Kowal. Okay. Before we 18 swear you in, David Weir, you're in the first row. 19 We got Andrea Reiner (phonetic), Andrea Reiner 20 here? Okay. Chaz Steiner (phonetic). Chaz 21 Steiner? No. Jessica Chakris? Hold on. 22 MR. FERRARO: Could you have Ashley Torn 23 go up next? She needs to leave. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Let's take 25 this gentleman, and then we'll take her. 253 1 Please raise your right hand to be sworn 2 in. 3 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 4 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 5 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 6 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 7 truth? 8 MR. KOWAL: I do. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: State your name and 10 address, please? 11 MR. KOWAL: Shane Kowal, 734 North Old 12 World Third Street, Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53213. 13 I feel that this is a benefit to our 14 community and to the building that I live in. 15 Number one, they're going to be putting in $1 16 million of renovations. 17 Number two, they're going to be adding 18 security to the area. Now, if you look at the area 19 now, the alleyway is kind of dark. There are 20 people walking their dogs from 720 all the time 21 through the alley. Wouldn't they want to have 22 that? Wouldn't -- I mean, that would be awesome. 23 You know, you could have people supporting the 24 area. There's bums laying there. It's almost 25 better to have the security anyway. The only time 254 1 you have policing is when the cops go through the 2 area. 3 They're going to bring in business to the 4 area which would benefit, you know, 100 jobs. 5 Well, who wouldn't want 100 jobs coming to the 6 area? You're going to bring revenue to the area. 7 They've got a successful business plan that they've 8 been doing it ten years. The shelf-life for any 9 club in Milwaukee is about three to five years. 10 They've been doing it ten years. That means 11 they've passed that limit and gone beyond. So the 12 amount of revenue they're going to bring in -- 13 they're also upscale. 14 They can throw in $1 million and renovate 15 a location right now. Most bars come in, and they 16 have a small business plan. So I think it's going 17 to add to what we have there. I would feel safer, 18 better, and it will add to the community. I live 19 there. Why wouldn't I want to have it? 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any questions 21 by the Committee? Counsel? 22 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No. Thank you, 23 Mr. Chair. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Next speaker, 25 what's your name, ma'am, Angela? 255 1 MS. TORN: Ashley. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Please raise your 3 right hand to be sworn in. 4 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 5 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 6 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 7 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 8 truth? 9 MS. TORN: Yes, I do. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Your name and 11 address, please? 12 MS. TORN: Ashley Torn, 222 South 3rd 13 Street. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What's your 15 testimony? 16 MS. TORN: I started working for John and 17 Silk in 2004, two weeks after I turned 18. I 18 started there as a cocktail waitress. I'm 27, and 19 I'm still there. I moved to LA for a couple of 20 years. I came back in May, and the first person I 21 called was John to get my job back. 22 It's my favorite place I've ever worked. 23 I've never felt so safe or taken care of or 24 comfortable in a work place. I've never had a boss 25 like John or Craig or Scott or anybody who has 256 1 treated us with so much respect and cared about us 2 and taken care of us. 3 I've never had to walk to my car myself, 4 never had to go to the gas station by myself. I've 5 never had an issue ever with somebody disrespecting 6 me at a club. I consider it a privilege to be able 7 to work there, and I think other people should get 8 that, as well. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 10 Committee? 11 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chair. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 13 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Ma'am, what did you do 14 in LA? 15 MS. TORN: I was a bartender. 16 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Bartender. And you're 17 a bartender for John, or you're a dancer? 18 MS. TORN: I'm a cocktail waitress. 19 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: My concern is, I guess 20 no one in this room, in my opinion, would know 21 better about the potential for human trafficking 22 than you would, seeing how you started there when 23 you were 18. 24 Have you ever witnessed anything in that 25 back room, any girl, any woman come to you on the 257 1 side and say, you know, I really got to get away 2 from this jerk, this guy that brought me here or my 3 agent/pimp, or whatever you want to call them. Has 4 that ever occurred to you? 5 MS. TORN: Never. And I have friendships 6 with -- that club, we're all family, and we can go 7 to each other with stuff like that, and that's 8 never been an issue ever in the nine years that 9 I've been there. 10 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. 11 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 13 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Which location do you 14 work at? 15 MS. TORN: Silk Milwaukee. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you for your 17 testimony. 18 David Weir, please raise your right hand 19 to be sworn in, sir. 20 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 21 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 22 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 23 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 24 truth? 25 MR. WEIR: I do. 258 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 2 please? 3 MR. WEIR: David Weir, 2602 East Newberry 4 Boulevard in Milwaukee. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: If you basically 6 agree with the previous speakers, say you agree and 7 anything additional you'd like to add. 8 MR. WEIR: I agree with the previous 9 speakers, and I'd like to add that being the owner 10 of the building downtown, Silk as an establishment, 11 you could not find a better tenant. 12 And being that they are going to be going 13 with a nondescript facade, I don't think it should 14 affect people so emotionally. I think a lot of 15 this fear-based emotion is not based on any fact. 16 Much of the fact of the matter is that 17 their record stands for itself. I think if you 18 also look at the property, it's surrounded by three 19 sides. The parking lot is a block and a half to 20 two blocks in each direction. 21 There is an apartment building next door, 22 but I think they will add to the safety with 23 panhandlers and homeless people in that alley. It 24 surprises me that tenants are not worried about 25 that, but they're worried about patrons of a 259 1 high-end, four-star, world class entertainment 2 venue. 3 We're a block away from a convention 4 center, and we should all try to get along with a 5 diverse downtown area to become a world class city. 6 I find it hard to believe that this man can get a 7 license in Nevada, the hardest place to get a 8 license, but he can't get one in his hometown. 9 Now, a lot of concerns are fear-based, 10 but the facts speak for themselves. 11 ALDERMAN KOVAC: You mean other than the 12 one that he has? 13 MR. WEIR: Right. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Because otherwise, 15 he has been operating without a license. 16 ALDERMAN KOVAC: So he does have a 17 license in his hometown. He just does not have 18 two. 19 MR. WEIR: Right. And I've talked to 20 many, many business people. Of course, they don't 21 want to go on the record and such. But they are 22 out for this because they want to have different 23 places for people to go to. We want to have a 24 diverse downtown. 25 I can guarantee you that if these people 260 1 get into this location, you're going to see 2 businesses sprout up. We have a steakhouse, maybe 3 a sports bar will go in across the street at the 4 Federal Building. 5 Why? Because there will be a traffic 6 pattern. People that are worried about traffic 7 shouldn't live in a downtown area. That's what it 8 was designed for. 9 A lot of this stuff does not make sense 10 to me because the reason I'm attracted to the 11 downtown area or the Eastside or whatever, is 12 because that's what we're looking for. So as far 13 I'm concerned, if we look at the facts, they're 14 clear. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 16 the Committee? 17 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 19 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Yeah. Actually, when 20 the attorney was asking the real estate agent 21 earlier, do you have any facts to back up your 22 assertion that it would increase business in the 23 area? 24 MR. WEIR: Well, yeah. You can look at 25 most models -- okay, I've been a real estate broker 261 1 for 32 years. Okay. I've owned different 2 commercial and residential real estate. The model 3 that many of our business leaders are trying to 4 make happen has failed miserably. All we have is 5 more and more blight, and more and more empty 6 businesses. 7 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: The question is: Do 8 you have factual data to support your assertion 9 that putting a strip club -- 10 MR. WEIR: Well, yeah -- 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Sir. I'll tell you 12 something. You were answering her before you even 13 knew what the rest of the question was. So can you 14 please -- 15 MR. WEIR: Yeah. Go ahead. 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: -- fully comprehend 17 your question? 18 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Do you have factual 19 data that would support your assertion that placing 20 a strip club at this location will increase 21 businesses in the area? 22 MR. WEIR: This four-star gentlemen's 23 club, which is like a four-star hotel in its own 24 venue, I've had many people say, I'm looking to 25 invest if I can find supporting businesses in that 262 1 area. 2 If we can get something going, who knows, 3 maybe we'll have someone move down there, 4 eventually. We have a convention center. We'd 5 like to go down there, but there's not enough 6 pattern and traffic pattern. 7 I've heard many people say that if John 8 goes in there, business people, cohorts that I know 9 in the business community tell me that they're 10 interested in that area if we can get something 11 going. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Did that answer your 13 question? 14 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: No. It did, but it 15 didn't. It made it clear to me that the answer is 16 no. Thank you. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any other 18 questions by Committee? Okay. Counsel, do you 19 have anything? 20 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No. Thank you. 21 ALDERMAN PEREZ: I have a question. Are 22 you actively -- are you renting or leasing the site 23 now, or is it vacant? 24 MR. WEIR: Right now, it's in limbo. 25 ALDERMAN PEREZ: So are you actively 263 1 trying to lease the space or not? 2 MR. WEIR: I have interested parties, but 3 I was trying to wait to see what happens here. 4 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Okay. Thank you. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 6 Jessica Chakris? 7 MS. CHAKRIS: Yes. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Michael Parker, II, 9 is here? 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: He is. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: He is. And then 12 we're looking at Anna Slaber. So we're down to the 13 last three people. If there is anybody else that 14 wants to testify in support, you need to fill out a 15 form as soon as possible. Yes. 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I didn't fill out 17 a form. 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: What's your name? 19 MR. REUM: Roger Reum. 20 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Roger Reum? 21 MR. REUM: Yes. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Why don't you 23 come to the first row here, Roger Yarim. Okay. 24 Ma'am, please raise your right hand to be 25 sworn in. 264 1 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 2 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 3 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 4 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 5 truth? 6 MS. CHAKRIS: I do. 7 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Name and 8 address, please? 9 MS. CHAKRIS: Jessica Chakris, 2129 South 10 111th Street, Apartment Number 2, West Allis, 11 Wisconsin. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What's your 13 testimony? 14 MS. CHAKRIS: I've worked at Silk since 15 '05, so about ten years, on and off. One part, it 16 was a full-time job. Most of the time, it's just a 17 side-time job. I feel extremely safe there as 18 opposed to any of my employment I've had at any 19 other strip clubs. 20 A lot of allegations or concerns brought 21 up, some of them are just extremely outrageous to 22 me because I've been there, and I've seen almost 23 every aspect of the club, and I just know that 24 safety there is number one. 25 The sex trafficking issue, or whatever, 265 1 that is a really major concern in the whole world, 2 but for that to be brought up in this establishment 3 I think is outrageous, not just because it's a 4 strip club. 5 But Silk, comparing it to any other strip 6 club downtown, it's no comparison. The way they 7 treat us, it's just a high-class establishment. 8 It's not like any of the other clubs down here that 9 I have visited, that I have contemplated working at 10 until I actually went to the establishment itself. 11 The house parents there, they talk to us 12 on a regular basis. John and Craig, they know for 13 the most part, a lot of the girls there, their 14 family, where else they work, and they always make 15 it a point to come up and see how we're doing, and 16 if there are any concerns brought up. 17 And just safety, as well, with the 18 building down here is this will be more people -- 19 or more patrol. So it's going to be more safer now 20 -- or more safer if they do get their liquor 21 license than what it is now. 22 So there's more than one reason why they 23 should have their liquor license granted. The 24 employment for the girls, and I think that's it. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 266 1 Committee? 2 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chair. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 4 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Ma'am, did I just hear 5 you correctly, you've checked out other strip clubs 6 with the idea of possibly of working for them, and 7 you've chosen to work for Mr. Ferraro and his 8 group? 9 MS. CHAKRIS: Mm-hmm. 10 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Just so I'm clear, did 11 you work at other strip clubs? 12 MS. CHAKRIS: Oh, yeah. I've worked at 13 OTB. 14 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I don't want you 15 getting in trouble by bad mouthing some other 16 employer. When you talk about, you know, human 17 trafficking and that sort of stuff, you mention 18 that you've never seen anything like that, at any 19 point in time? 20 MS. CHAKRIS: No. I have never seen 21 anything like that. I have been approached by a 22 random person sort of insinuating to bring me on or 23 something like that, and I immediately brought it 24 up to security, and he was escorted and no longer 25 allowed in the establishment. 267 1 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. I wanted to 2 get to the point where you've had other employment, 3 I would assume. Would you consider John and Craig 4 and their group to be fairly tough task masters and 5 fairly strict? 6 MS. CHAKRIS: Yes. As nice as they are, 7 they don't take any BS, you could say. 8 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: You can say it. I 9 can't say it. 10 MS. CHAKRIS: They're very strict with 11 what we can do, or there's not even a question of 12 what we can do. 13 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I've even heard tales 14 that Mr. Ferraro has fired individuals who were on 15 their personal cell phone at inappropriate times. 16 MS. CHAKRIS: Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's 17 no phones on the floor. You're there to work. You 18 treat the customers respectfully. You handle 19 business properly. So, yeah. They're really 20 strict there. 21 But I'd rather have it that way than them 22 not caring about what we're not doing or how we're 23 holding ourselves or what type of reputation that 24 we're putting upon the company, so. 25 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you. 268 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Any further 2 questions? 3 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Mr. Chair. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderwoman Coggs. 5 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: You said you work 6 there, just for clarity, you dance there? 7 MS. CHAKRIS: Yes, ma'am. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Counsel? 9 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No questions. 10 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you for 11 your testimony. 12 Ron Yarim, please raise your right hand. 13 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 14 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 15 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 16 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 17 truth? 18 MR. REUM: Yes, ma'am. 19 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 20 please. 21 MR. REUM: Name is Ron Reum, R-E-U-M. 22 Address is 1101 North Market Street, Milwaukee, 23 Wisconsin 53202. 24 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. So if you're 25 basically agreeing with the previous speaker, say 269 1 you agree and add any new information. 2 MR. REUM: That's correct. I do agree. 3 One of the things I want to point out, I run an 4 entrepreneurial incubator program downtown here in 5 Milwaukee. Started out teaching veterans and 6 disabled vets about existing businesses, and it now 7 opened up to the general entrepreneurial community 8 here in Milwaukee. 9 Entrepreneurship is tough. Starting a 10 business is very difficult. You know, no one is 11 looking over your shoulder and keeping you at task. 12 Mr. Ferraro and his group started his businesses 13 from scratch. Everybody knows the bar business is 14 a tough business. 15 To be in business that long, he owns and 16 operates multiple businesses, and he does so 17 without any incidents that negatively impact the 18 business. I have people that come down to the 19 Accelerated Year that are interested in opening a 20 bar or a nightclub or anything like that, I would 21 not hesitate to reach out to Mr. Ferraro and his 22 group for them to act as mentors. 23 Because that's what we do. We reach out 24 to community members for mentors that are in the 25 professions that these guys would like to get into. 270 1 And I also own -- have a partner in a large data 2 center here in downtown Milwaukee not far from the 3 location. I think that their track record speaks 4 volumes to the type of owners and partners that 5 they are. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 7 Committee? Questions by Counsel? 8 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No, sir. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you for your 10 testimony. 11 We've got -- we're down to three people. 12 Michael Parker, II, is Michael Parker, II here? 13 And Anna Slaber, and Drew Roberts? Why don't you 14 have a seat in the first row? So these are our 15 final people. If anybody wants to testify in 16 support, please sign one of these registration 17 sheets. 18 Michael Parker, II. Please raise your 19 right hand to be sworn in. 20 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 21 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 22 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 23 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 24 truth? 25 MR. PARKER, II: Yes. 271 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 2 please. 3 MR. PARKER, II: Michael Parker, II, 133 4 West Oregon, 508. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. What's your 6 testimony? 7 MR. PARKER, II: My testimony is that I 8 work for John, Craig, Scott, and Joe -- a number of 9 years working for them. I've been a DJ, and I've 10 been a bartender, and I bounced in that period of 11 time. 12 Currently, I'm just a DJ for them, due to 13 the fact that John and Craig have helped me launch 14 my career as a DJ, and then I work for other 15 downtown venues and also am touring around the US. 16 Without knowing John and without knowing 17 Craig, I would never have been invited to play 18 Las Vegas, to be invited to go to the Los Angeles, 19 and go to any city I really want to be involved 20 with and play. 21 They blew my career up for me, and John 22 would -- doesn't have to say, that's my guy, 23 Parker, that's one of the best DJs in the city. 24 And I started at Taylor's, Belmont, Suite, a number 25 of other clubs in the city is based on the fact 272 1 that I worked for John and Craig. I think that's 2 about it. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 4 Committee? 5 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chairman. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Dudzik. 7 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Sir, if I'm not 8 mistaken, you recently came back from the Orient, 9 as well? 10 MR. PARKER, II: No. My Thailand trip is 11 currently delayed until after the New Year. I will 12 be heading out to the Las Vegas in six weeks to 13 help John and Craig and Scott and Joe to open up 14 their new venture. 15 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: So your trip to 16 Thailand was delayed because of their license in 17 Las Vegas? 18 MR. PARKER, II: Correct. So for two 19 months to train kickboxing and train for DJ while 20 I'm out there for two months. 21 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Okay. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any other 23 questions by Committee? Questions by Counsel? 24 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No questions. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Anna Slaber. Please 273 1 raise your right hand. 2 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 3 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 4 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 5 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 6 truth? 7 MS. SLABER: I do. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 9 please? 10 MS. SLABER: My name is Anna Slaber, 1444 11 South 70th Street. And I am a customer at Silk. 12 And I go there regularly. The first time I went to 13 Silk I was like, oh, no, it's a strip club. But I 14 felt very welcome the very first time I went in 15 there. 16 And I would love to open -- if you guys 17 open a strip club at the downtown location because 18 I'd even had thoughts of working there myself. 19 It's closer to where I'm currently living, and it 20 would just help me out because of my debt that I 21 have and maybe even go back to school. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 23 Committee? Questions by Counsel? 24 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No questions. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Thank you for your 274 1 testimony. Okay. 2 The last speaker that we have is Drew 3 Roberts. And then we're going to take a break for 4 the court reporter. 5 Please raise your right hand. 6 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly affirm under 7 the pains and penalties of perjury in the State of 8 Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give 9 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 10 truth? 11 MR. ROBERTS: I do. 12 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Name and address, 13 please? 14 MR. ROBERTS: Drew Roberts, 734 Old World 15 Third Street. I've been a resident in Milwaukee 16 for the last ten years. I've been a businessowner 17 in the State of Wisconsin for the last six. And up 18 until this summer, I was a businessowner at 19 Wisconsin Avenue. 20 And speaking in favor of these guys 21 opening up, I really think that we, you know, the 22 big thing about this country is that people are 23 supposed to be given a chance to do things like 24 this. 25 You know, if they're not going to uphold 275 1 what their duties are to the state or the city 2 here, then I'm sure there are ways to get them out 3 of there. You know, I am sure everyone should have 4 a chance to get a shot. I heard a lot of negative 5 things from real estate agents about the 6 detrimental stuff about the area if it goes in to 7 have on the area -- 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Sir, that's been 9 testified to many times over. Do you have anything 10 new to the testify to? 11 MR. ROBERTS: I think that a lot of 12 negative stuff has been said that they're kind of 13 incorrectly placed with some previous incidents 14 that have occurred and shootings and robberies in 15 the area. 16 One of the things that we remember is 17 that while they're still in the same category as an 18 entertainment industry, they're a whole different 19 party. They run things differently than these 20 guys, and I think it's a little unfair to push them 21 all together. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: So what business do 23 you operate? 24 MR. ROBERTS: The Cornerstone. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: The Cornerstone. 276 1 And what's the address there? 2 MR. ROBERTS: 633 West Wisconsin. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Questions by 4 Committee Members? Questions by Counsel? 5 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: No questions. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you for 7 your testimony. 8 Alderman Perez will move to enter all of 9 these registration and sign-in sheets for testimony 10 in support and opposition on the record. There 11 being no objections, so ordered. 12 We're going to take a very brief 13 five-minute recess for the court reporter, and then 14 we will reconvene. 15 (Break taken.) 16 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. The License 17 Committee will now reconvene. 18 Attorney Whitcomb, this is now your 19 opportunity to talk at length of your plan of 20 operation and anything else you wish for your 21 application. And then we'll ask you questions and 22 take it into Committee. 23 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: I think, at this 24 time, I would defer to Mr. Ferraro. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Mr. Ferraro, 277 1 it's all yours. 2 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Please explain, at 3 least initially, your history as a business owner 4 in the City of Milwaukee. 5 MR. FERRARO: Well, I just want to pass 6 this up to you guys. There are a lot of 7 misconceptions about what a lot of people are 8 concerned about the exterior, the security, the 9 interior. They say it's a dark, gloomy place. 10 So on the front, it shows you our 11 proposed exterior and also shows you the current 12 look of the building. Again, there is a bum in the 13 dumpster. The alleyway is dumpsters and garbage. 14 Things that we could clean up. Obviously, cameras. 15 And on the back, it shows you outside and 16 if you look at it, people have concerns about the 17 curb appeal, and the granite is a little flashy, 18 but we would let the community decide what the 19 outside looks like. 20 These are examples of how it's welcoming. 21 Its interior is not dark or gloomy. It's very 22 upscale because people don't always know what my 23 idea of upscale is. This is just to show you guys 24 and people, show them kind of a description of the 25 club. 278 1 I'm born and raised in Milwaukee -- just 2 a little brief background on me. At 14, I started 3 washing dishes at my parents' restaurant. I opened 4 up my first bar at age 25, Bada Bing in 5 Joe Dudzik's area. 6 And I joke in the sense that the day of 7 the closing, I already got a call from Joe that the 8 sign went up and the neighbors were already 9 complaining that it said Bada Bing Social Club, 10 Nightclub. 68th and Oklahoma is a very residential 11 neighborhood, so I know the concerns of the 12 neighbors. And from day one, Joe told me that 13 there better not be any problems. There's two 14 instances that I remember. 15 I bought a bunch of picnic tables. Joe 16 shows up and said, I don't want this out front. It 17 should not be here. I saw the events I was going 18 to have. I screwed them to the building. 19 Another thing, a festival, a big church 20 festival. It's probably the biggest church 21 festival in the city. Friday night, there was a 22 lot of motorcycles, and we got a lot of complaints 23 that there were a lot of motorcycles in the street. 24 It had nothing to do with me, and all the 25 bars in the area got a lot of complaints. And Joe 279 1 again called me and said, John I can't have these 2 neighbors complaining. I voluntarily closed on 3 Saturday night, and that Friday night was the 4 busiest I had ever had. So from day one, I've 5 always worked with my neighbors. I've taken into 6 consideration what my neighbors would say. 7 I'm not in the city for one or two years. 8 I plan on being here for my whole life, and my 9 reputation is valuable. At 27, I opened Silk on 10 Highway 100. And Jim Bohl told me the same thing; 11 if we have a problem, we'll shut you down. 12 We took on this energy drink, and we were 13 the sole provider of this energy drink. It was 14 kind of a racier bottle. It had girls in bikinis. 15 And so we bought a van and had it wrapped. And Jim 16 called me and said, it's not illegal to have the 17 van, but the neighbors are complaining they are 18 driving by on their way to school when they see 19 that van. 20 So I stored it and lost $10,000. Again, 21 I'm just showing you that I'm not the kind of guy 22 that goes in a place and thinks I know everything. 23 If someone has a legitimate concern, I'm always 24 willing to help. At 31, I opened up the club in 25 Juneau, Wisconsin. 280 1 That's been out there for seven years 2 now, and I have a letter of recommendation from the 3 mayor, and he states he's not in favor of what I do 4 inside of the building, but I am an asset to the 5 community. There's no litter. We've contributed 6 to the city. We've been an ideal neighbor, and no 7 one -- in his letters, he said, no one would know 8 what it is, other than it says, "Gentlemen's Club" 9 outside, which downtown wouldn't need on the 10 building. 11 At age 33, I opened up a club in Madison 12 a few years ago. Again, no incidents out there. 13 You know, all of these were successful, but I also 14 had a few that weren't that good. We bought -- a 15 couple of years ago, I bought a bar called Gyro 16 Bar. It was Bob Bauman's district. When we first 17 took over, there was a lot of noise complaints. 18 There were condos right across the street at 324 19 East Mason. So we went in there. We eliminated 20 the DJs, and we changed it to Vanity, and within 18 21 months, we were out of business. 22 Obviously, the crowd that they had there 23 was a small place and by changing the music and 24 everything, we lost the people. And we lost about 25 $300,000. But at no point did we go to a hip-hop 281 1 club. We didn't go to underage. 2 We closed the doors, and we took our 3 loss. And so again, my reputation is very 4 important to me in the city. And I always would 5 like to obtain that. 6 My last thing I bought was in 2013. I 7 bought the Sandbar in Pewaukee Lake. 8 Again, there were some problems there, a 9 lot of noise issues. All the neighbors hated us. 10 The manager, he caused a lot of problems. Within 11 three months, we fired him, cleaned up everything 12 and went for our liquor license in July. 13 The mayor actually thanked us for 14 everything we've done. It's been over a year now. 15 We're actually going to do a little expansion. So, 16 you know, I also have Jokerz Comedy Club where 17 there's no issues. 18 And, again, today there is a lot of 19 people in opposition, but none of them have really 20 provided facts to show negative side effects. I'm 21 aware of crime. As far as crime, we've had none. 22 We've proved that at three locations. 23 Between our security system, our security 24 cameras, we do everything in our power to make sure 25 there is no issue. If there is an issue, I'm the 282 1 first one to deal with it. Any of the Alderman, 2 whether it's Bob Bauman or any neighbor calls me, 3 I'm the first guy to call me 24 hours a day. 4 People that are concerned about real 5 estate, we have the survey that we handed in. And 6 it shows just a real brief thing, it shows the real 7 estate by Solid Gold, Art's, Airport Lounge, On The 8 Border, and Silk has been down 13 to 23 percent. 9 Real estate in Riverwest and Brewers' 10 Hill is down 24 to 30 percent. So again, I mean, 11 you could look at it 18 different ways in doing 12 these, but it's generally less in areas where 13 there's gentlemen's clubs. 14 The gentlemen's clubs don't bring up the 15 real estate, but they're definitely not going to 16 hurt it. It's a bad economy. The real estate is 17 bad because it is. 18 As far as noise concerns, I think that 19 would probably be the least of the problems. A lot 20 of these bars downtown have outdoor speakers, beer 21 gardens. We have none of that. None of our 22 customers want to be outside. I have a beautiful 23 beer garden on Highway 100 and Silver Spring with 24 over -- about a 200,000 square foot beer garden. 25 And people are not going to sit outside and have a 283 1 beer. They're there to see the girls. So as far 2 as the noise, that's the least of the issues. 3 Traffic, I mean, the place we're going 4 into, it's always been a bar. It's probably been a 5 bar probably longer than -- obviously, longer than 6 these new apartments next door. 7 The apartments were always next door, but 8 now that they're higher end -- when you go into -- 9 when it was Martini Mike's or it was Rusty's, it 10 was wide open. You could cram a lot of people in, 11 so traffic is not going to be an issue. 12 People are asking for more retail, which 13 if there is traffic, it does bring retail. So that 14 whole argument, I don't really understand that 15 much. 16 Valet parking, we've got No Problem 17 Valet. I have also at least contracted two parking 18 structures. They'll be taking no parking, at all. 19 There will be two spots in front of the building as 20 a loading zone for valet. But other than that, 21 there will be no street parking. Everyone is going 22 to be valeted into parking structures. 23 And as far as the human trafficking, it's 24 a terrible thing. But it's not something that we 25 are going to ever allow. There is -- right now, 284 1 there is 110 clubs in Wisconsin. So if a 111th 2 club opens up in Wisconsin, it's not going to solve 3 or make the problem worse. 4 I guarantee it's not going to be 5 happening in my club. But I can guarantee you, 6 it's not happening in any of my clubs. And by 7 opening up another club, it's not going to increase 8 human trafficking. Wherever it is happening -- 9 which I have no proof of where it's happening -- 10 but I know it's not going to happen at my club. 11 That being said, I just hope that, 12 obviously, there's been a lot of opposition, some 13 in favor. But I would hope that you would give us 14 fair a chance on our reputation. And we know a 15 license is a privilege. 16 And I know, you know, we're sticking over 17 $1 million of our money. It's not a loan. It's 18 not investor's money. It's our money to invest in 19 a place that we have faith in, and we know that we 20 know damn well that if we do anything wrong, we'll 21 be shut down. 22 Mr. Zielinski knows my dad. If I do 23 something to mess up the name of my family, that 24 will be the least of my problems. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: That's true. Okay. 285 1 Now, before we go into closing arguments, 2 Alderman Bauman, did you have a few words to say -- 3 well, wait because they're saying -- 4 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Are we asking 5 questions of Mr. Ferraro? 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Yeah. We're going 7 to ask questions of Mr. Ferraro. But then why 8 don't we ask questions. And then we are going to 9 go to Alderman Bauman. And then we'll have closing 10 arguments by Counsel because we always want to give 11 the last word to the applicant. 12 Attorney Stephens? 13 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: In the event that 14 there's no -- 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Well -- 16 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: I mean, the document 17 -- 18 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: -- Ferraro. 19 Alderman Kovac would move to enter that into the 20 record. There being no objections, so ordered. 21 Alderman Perez. 22 ALDERMAN PEREZ: One of the secondary 23 issues that were brought up earlier was you said 24 that you had no worries about it. But we've heard 25 residents that live in the building or nearby talk 286 1 about the noise from the former establishment. And 2 you're playing music constantly where you're at 3 now, and that would be the format at this new 4 location. So talk a little bit about mitigating 5 the noise, whether it's measures that you already 6 think about taking or inside the building, 7 whatever. 8 MR. FERRARO: Even our location at 9 Highway 100 on Silver Spring, we have a comedy club 10 on the lower level, which needs to be whisper 11 quiet. And we went out and spent about $35,000 on 12 a foam insulation, a three foot insulation in the 13 ceiling that was able to prevent the noise. 14 I think the biggest thing, though, is 15 that more of a bar, a nightclub, a restaurant, the 16 music is louder. There is more bass. By me, it's 17 more of a talking level. I mean, it's not going to 18 be whisper quiet, but most people are there to 19 engage the girls. 20 So you can't have the music blaring, and 21 the bass rattling. So our noise levels are 22 quieter. And it's one of those things, if it ever 23 becomes an issue, I will get a guy out there with a 24 decibel meter, and we will figure out. 25 I'm not going to stick $1 million into a 287 1 place knowing the residents are going to be gunning 2 for me looking for anything they can do to prove 3 themselves right. I would invite any one of the 4 neighbors to sit in their apartment, and we'll do 5 sound checks. 6 ALDERMAN PEREZ: There was a female that 7 testified that she was in the club. 8 MR. FERRARO: That was Silver Spring. 9 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Yeah. 10 MR. FERRARO: It's her idea of very loud, 11 and I have been in the business my whole life. 12 It's 50 percent as loud as a regular nightclub 13 would be. If I have to go to the 30 percent. 14 Whatever I have to do. If I have to put up more 15 proofing, I'm going to do it. People aren't there 16 to dance. They're there for the entertainment. 17 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Noise is an issue. 18 MR. FERRARO: And that would be -- like I 19 said, I would guarantee before we open I would make 20 sure you can call any of the neighbors, and we can 21 sit in their apartment and really fire our system 22 up. And, obviously, if there was a problem, we 23 would turn it down or figure out a way to do that 24 before we open. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Is that all, 288 1 Alderman? 2 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Yes. Thank you. 3 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chair. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. 5 Alderman Dudzik. 6 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Ferraro, you 7 mentioned two parking structures that you have 8 contracts with? 9 MR. FERRARO: No problems that way. They 10 have the contracts. I don't have them on me, but 11 he has the letter stating where they are. 12 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Do you know which 13 parking structures they have contracts with, by any 14 chance? 15 MR. FERRARO: I will, if I could have a 16 second. 17 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I talk slow. The 18 reason I ask is because many of the women that 19 oppose your opening talked about with being at this 20 parking structure or that parking structure. I 21 think the Hilton was one. And I'm just curious if 22 you have valet services to these same locations? 23 MR. FERRARO: Right now, we have the 24 Federal Plaza, 747 Old World Third Street, and 25 Rimco Plaza, 738 North 2nd Street. So -- and 289 1 that's -- if we needed more, he would -- that's 2 what he does. 3 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I don't doubt that you 4 will do what you need to, to have enough. I just 5 want to be, in my own head, clear that your valets 6 will be, you know, basically walking -- walking 7 past some of the people that may have had some 8 concerns about safety issues going to and from 9 their apartments. 10 MR. FERRARO: One thousand percent, I 11 would give the phone number out whether we had to 12 pick them up or get a golf cart. 13 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Are you going to charge 14 the guy that drives the golf cart, if they seem to 15 be pretty good at that? 16 And, again, I've tried to be pretty 17 transparent over the past three years with regards 18 to your relationship with me. My decision is going 19 to be based on what I've heard not only today, but 20 in consideration with some of the stuff that we've 21 heard in the past was a little different. 22 But my comments with regards to the 23 noise, my wife and I and my son have actually had 24 ample opportunity to enjoy a number of comedy acts 25 at Jokerz. And I can honestly tell you that I have 290 1 sat in that audience and wondered if anybody was 2 above me. 3 Because the comedy acts are in the lower 4 level, which used to house adult male entertainment 5 back in the 80's when I was accused of starting 6 fights at the Attic. It didn't happen. 7 But anyway, I seriously sat there a 8 number of times with my wife and my son and his 9 girlfriend and watched comedy shows. And I just 10 never really understood how you got the volume down 11 at the level that some of these national comedians 12 would demand of their audience. 13 I mean, I can recall one individual 14 scolding the audience for being too loud while he's 15 doing his routine, and I'm going, like, you're 16 worried about the audience? And I can't hear 17 upstairs. 18 So I just wanted to point that out, and I 19 really do think that the parking structure issue is 20 something that I'll -- I'll have to really 21 consider. Thank you. 22 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any other 23 questions of Mr. Ferraro? 24 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Chair. 25 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Attorney Stephens. 291 1 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Mr. Ferraro, there's 2 been testimony today, and recognition by you as the 3 applicant as a necessity to have security protocols 4 in place in order to handle the entertainers coming 5 and going from the establishment. Do you recall 6 that testimony? 7 MR. FERRARO: I'm sorry. Could you 8 repeat that? 9 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: There has been 10 testimony today that discussed the security 11 protocols that you have in place at Silk at Silver 12 Spring relative to bringing the entertainers to and 13 from the facility. Do you recall that? 14 MR. FERRARO: Correct. 15 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: There has also been 16 -- and you've also documented your protocols in 17 your operation, correct? 18 MR. FERRARO: Correct. 19 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: The testimony that 20 came in from the neighbors who -- female neighbors 21 live next door to this proposal location whom I 22 asked how old they were, they all seemed to be in 23 their 20's. Do you recall that? 24 MR. FERRARO: Okay. 25 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: The focus of their 292 1 testimony had to do with the feeling of safety 2 coming and going to their residence relative to 3 your proposal in the neighboring building, correct? 4 MR. FERRARO: Correct. 5 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Here's my question: 6 Recognizing your need for security for your staff 7 and your entertainers, what is your proposal to 8 ensure the safety and security for whatever threat 9 that you believe might be out there for those young 10 women who live in an immediate proximity to this 11 proposal? 12 MR. FERRARO: I guess I never thought of 13 that because it's never been an issue. But I would 14 go as far as -- and I would go on record saying it. 15 If I had to hire one person to be at their front 16 door from the time I'm open -- and hour before I'm 17 open until the last person leaves at 4 in the 18 morning, I would do that on my dime. 19 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: For the purposes 20 of -- 21 MR. FERRARO: For the purpose of just -- 22 it would be my staff, but their purpose would be 23 for the tenants of that building next door to get 24 them to their car or wherever they have to go. I 25 mean, we're not going to drive them to work, but 293 1 they'll get them to their car. I'll go on record, 2 and you can add that to my application today. 3 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Are you 4 finished, Attorney Stephens? 5 ATTORNEY STEPHENS: Yes. 6 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac? 7 ALDERMAN KOVAC: This isn't really a 8 question, but it's just a reaction I'm having to 9 that solution. And it kind of reminds me of the 10 one testimony we got, which was totally sincere 11 from one employee. But I just took a note of it. 12 That she never felt so safe, so taken 13 care of, so comfortable, and she went through some 14 activities she's never had to do by herself. It 15 isn't necessarily a bad thing. Some people like 16 company. Some people like to walk to their cars 17 alone. 18 And so I wouldn't want a place moving 19 next to me if the solution to, you might not be 20 safe, is you're going to have an armed guard to 21 walk you to your car. The casualness of which you 22 propose that solution to me seems to misunderstand 23 the problem. 24 MR. FERRARO: He's not armed. 25 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Or never mind armed. 294 1 It's just the idea, I'm going to protect you by 2 hanging outside your door -- 3 MR. FERRARO: Well -- 4 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Hold on. Let me finish. 5 The idea that my solution to potentially be 6 stabilizing the block you live on is I'll hire 7 someone to personally protect you. It's not the 8 usual answer we get, let me put it that way. 9 MR. FERRARO: I'm not being -- if you 10 have a better answer -- 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Hold on a second. 12 Are you finished with your statement? 13 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Yes. 14 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. So which one 15 of you two is responding? 16 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: I will respond. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Go ahead. 18 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: The response is 19 Mr. Ferraro was addressing a fear based on 20 unsubstantiated suppositions as to what this 21 facility would attract or how it would operate. 22 Our position is those fears are 23 unfounded. They will not be born, in fact, once 24 opened. And that the young female tenants of the 25 building won't have any concerns whatsoever once 295 1 it's open. 2 But if they were to have a concern, at 3 least initially once it first opened, and they felt 4 uncomfortable walking to their vehicles, the 5 facility would provide escorts from the facility to 6 their vehicles. 7 But after a short order, there wouldn't 8 be any concern at all. There is no position that, 9 yes, there's reason to be fearful once it's open. 10 That wasn't the position. 11 ALDERMAN KOVAC: That actually wasn't 12 what I was implying. What I was implying is it's 13 kind of a paternalistic solution. Just pointing 14 that out. 15 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Do you want 16 to respond? 17 MR. FERRARO: Like I said, being in the 18 business ten years, I've never had any of those 19 issues. I don't see that being an issue. It's 20 kind of a hypothetical question. And if somebody 21 -- if I had issues before -- if I had a different 22 nightclub where there was constant issues, I would 23 have a better answer. 24 I know my girls are safe. I know every 25 one of my neighbors are safe. I won't -- I don't 296 1 have the position -- I never really had to think 2 about a solution because I never had the problem. 3 If I did, you know, I would be open for 4 any kind of suggestion you would have. But when 5 you're giving me how do I stop someone's fears, how 6 do I stop someone's fears? 7 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Well, let me make -- I'm 8 pretty sure that what the residents of 720 Old 9 World Wisconsin don't want is for to you hire them 10 a house parent. 11 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. So -- 12 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Mr. Chairman, in 13 response to Alderman Dudzik's question concerning 14 valet parking, we have a communication from the 15 valet service that would be viable, if I would make 16 that part of the record. 17 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Sure. 18 Alderman Dudzik will make a motion to move that 19 into the record. There being no objections, so 20 ordered. 21 What we're going to do right now is give 22 Alderman Bauman an opportunity to make some 23 statements, and then we'll give Counsel an 24 opportunity for closing remarks. And then we'll go 25 in for a vote. 297 1 Alderman Bauman? 2 ALDERMAN BAUMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 3 Members of the Committee, this is deja vu all over 4 again. This is the third time we have heard this 5 application for this location. We've heard from 6 many of the same witnesses. We've heard the exact 7 same issues. 8 The human trafficking is a new one, and I 9 hope they show up at every nightclub application. 10 Because I think the issues they raise apply pretty 11 equally to all major, large nightclub venues in the 12 City of Milwaukee that involve young females, 13 alcohol, possible drug involvement. So I hope they 14 are a regular presence at these licensing hearings. 15 And, boy, I could use their backup that I've had to 16 deal with in downtown Milwaukee. 17 But having said that, I've heard no new 18 facts that would cause me to change my position 19 from my previous position. And that was to not 20 support this application at this location. Having 21 said, I will say again, that I'm pretty satisfied 22 that Mr. Ferraro runs a very professional business, 23 that as an entertainment venue, regardless of what 24 type entertainment. 25 But as an entertainment venue, this 298 1 establishment, first of all, his existing 2 establishments, and I think this proposed 3 establishment would represent a far lower level of 4 negative impact than any other similarly sized 5 entertainment venue going in at 730 Old World Third 6 Street, given the size of the venue. 7 Almost the previous -- and why do I say 8 that? Because the previous establishments that 9 were in there have had issues, up to and including 10 homicides. Shooting in the middle of Wisconsin 11 Avenue, where someone was actually killed after 12 Martini Mike's let out for the evening. 13 A lot of the residents testified today 14 from 720 North Old World Third Street moved in 15 subsequent to that. I counted 18 witnesses from 16 720 North Old World Third Street. That's a lot of 17 witnesses. I've never had that many people at any 18 of my license hearings, actual citizen witnesses, 19 much less from one building. 20 They are right next door. I think it's 21 fair to say, and I -- you know, this is a message 22 to the landlord, I think you got a substantial 23 built-in opposition to anybody wanting to locate an 24 entertainment venue at that location. 25 Because, frankly, the complaints I heard 299 1 would apply in orders of magnitude greater to 2 almost any other type of entertainment 3 establishment that would go in there. Given the 4 size of that location and given the history of the 5 establishments that have been there, from the 6 Velvet Room to Martini Mike's to Rusty Nail. 7 The -- Rusty's or whatever that was, 8 didn't pose a problem, but it had no business. And 9 he didn't have any business because he was busted 10 one day with 125 or so Marquette students in there, 11 and that pretty much put the kibosh on that 12 operation. So the Rusty Nail has basically been a 13 non-operator. It's been a low, low, low volume, 14 low profile. 15 The previous establishments have had 16 issues and have had issues the entire time I've 17 been an Alderman. Had issues from before I was an 18 Alderman because my law office was just at Third 19 and Wells just down the block. 20 So I was aware of issues at the Velvet 21 Room. And trust me, residents of 720, we hear you 22 loud and clear. We take your concerns very 23 seriously, but those concerns would, in fact, apply 24 with equal force or to greater force to anybody 25 else that would be in there. 300 1 So what you're really testifying to today 2 is that you want no nightclubs ever at 720 North 3 Old World Third Street because, frankly, any other 4 nightclub would pose greater problems than what his 5 business would pose. 6 So what we end up with is really a land 7 use problem here. The testimony I do think that 8 carries weight is the argument of the real estate 9 community, which is basically saying this land use 10 operated as perfectly as perfect can be, the best 11 run strip club in the world would still be a 12 problem. Because as a land use, it's incompatible 13 with the development plans for the Wisconsin Avenue 14 corridor. That argument, I think, carries weight, 15 has weight. And that is why I recommended against 16 granting this license the last time. 17 And while -- I'll do it again this time. 18 We use the metaphor, the American Girl argument. 19 But that's basically a land use issue. I'm 20 convinced Mr. Ferraro's business were allowed to go 21 in, there would be -- would have none of the 22 adverse impacts everybody's complained about. 23 It would impact the real estate issues 24 because I think the mere fact of a strip club and 25 the perceptions that that conjures up does impact 301 1 people's development decision in this city, at this 2 point in time, at this period of its development. 3 So I take those explanations. I think 4 those do deserve weight. And so the land use issue 5 at this location, I'm hoping Mr. Ferraro comes back 6 a fourth time and doesn't propose this location, 7 but a new location downtown. Because I have -- at 8 a different location in downtown Milwaukee, I would 9 have no objection to his club being in operation. 10 I think it would be an asset to the 11 community. We have heard testimony from the 12 convention people in our travels through the 13 downtown area talking to restauranteurs, talking to 14 club owners, we do hear these -- this conversation. 15 It's just his type of establishment is 16 just an amenity that any other downtown area has 17 that wants to be a big city. It's that simple. I 18 agree with that. 19 From a land view standpoint, there are 20 other locations currently available. There's one 21 location where the city is the landlord, currently 22 available. I hope they make an active effort to 23 secure those locations and that we come back here 24 with an application that we can support. 25 Because I'm satisfied that as a business 302 1 operation, this business would be very 2 professionally run and would have none of the 3 entertainment venue-type problems, disorder, the 4 noise, the violence, the criminal behavior, none of 5 those things or little or none of those things or 6 little would occur in connection with his business, 7 unlike so many of the other clubs that we have to 8 deal with in downtown. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you, 10 Alderman. Attorney Whitcomb, we're going to give 11 you closing arguments. 12 ATTORNEY WHITCOMB: Thank you, 13 Mr. Chairman. And thank you for devoting the time 14 to this hearing and to the people who interrupted 15 their day to come and testify. 16 I thank Alderman Bauman for his comments, 17 90 percent of which were very accurate. I say that 18 not facetiously. What is the largest development 19 west of the river in downtown Milwaukee in the last 20 100 years? The Mardarian (phonetic). And what is 21 within 500 yards of the Mardarian? A strip club. 22 Did it stop the development? No. We don't even 23 know that strip club exists. No one thinks about 24 it because that's the way strip club clubs operate. 25 People that go there really don't want people to 303 1 know that they're attending. People who attend 2 rarely create problems as they do with taverns. 3 We've heard half of the opponents. Half 4 of the opponents I can accurately say might have 5 been bought and paid for today to come and object. 6 I doubt if the same people would come to object to 7 a tavern alone at the same location, plus they 8 received another $100 off their rent. 9 On the other side, we had the 10 cheerleaders for downtown retail object to this 11 application. But cheerleaders do not play in the 12 game. Cheerleaders do not score. Cheerleaders do 13 not win or lose. Cheerleaders risk nothing. 14 The coach of development in the city, the 15 Commissioner of the City Development, he calls the 16 plays. And for the retail shops of downtown Grand 17 Avenue, he said, retail is not going to work. 18 That's not a play I'm going to call. He said that 19 during the budget proceedings. All of cheerleading 20 in the world will not make the play for retail at 21 downtown work. Let the free market work and the 22 development of downtown -- cheerleaders may cheer 23 on results, but cheerleaders will not cause them. 24 Cheerleaders should not be heard to stand in the 25 way of business development players and the 304 1 risktakers. 2 Here we have $1 million on the table with 3 downtown Milwaukee. When is the last time that 4 anyone put that on the table out of their own 5 pocket without financing? 6 Please understand, those in the audience, 7 please understand and grasp the fact that Silk is 8 an entertainment facility. Patrons attend to watch 9 entertainment by entertainers. Theaters such as 10 the Pabst, Riverside, the Milwaukee Theater, Marcus 11 Center, and Turner Hall are all also entertainment 12 facilities. Patrons attend them to watch 13 entertainment by entertainers. These are licensed 14 to provide alcohol as a service and as a secondary 15 accomodation to their patrons. Unlike taverns and 16 clubs, as the Alderman pointed out, alcohol is not 17 the primary marketing force to attract patrons to 18 entertainment facilities. 19 Silk on the Northwest side does not have 20 tavern-related problems because it's not a tavern 21 where the only draw is alcohol and other patrons. 22 Silk is an entertainment facility where patrons are 23 drawn to the entertainment, the stage shows, and 24 the performers. 25 It is a total misconception and a logical 305 1 fallacy to compare a tavern to an entertainment 2 facility. Should you believe that problems 3 attended to taverns would be visited upon this 4 entertainment facility as some of these opponents 5 attest? Then recommend approval of the public 6 entertainment license and not the tavern license as 7 has been represented as acceptable. Obviously, the 8 objections we've heard are not objections to 9 entertainment facilities downtown. They are 10 objections to the form of the entertainment. 11 Objections expressed as fears, fears that are 12 irrational and unfounded, but fears nevertheless. 13 But these fears are advanced to justify objections 14 to the form of entertainment. A form of 15 entertainment found in what is called socialable 16 cities as defined by the Responsibility Hospitality 17 Institute that has worked with the City of 18 Milwaukee for four years. 19 Once Silk opens downtown, the expressed 20 fears will disappear. Only by operating, can Silk 21 prove this fact. That is because the expressed 22 fears are presented as a means to object to the 23 type of entertainment. 24 But all forms of lawful entertainment 25 should be allowed and accepted as entertainment 306 1 facilities and socialable cities as Milwaukee 2 wishes to become. All that is right and just as 3 diverse. So why not diverse entertainment 4 facilities? As a Responsible Hospitality Institute 5 recognized for downtown Milwaukee, and I quote, 6 "Milwaukee should be nurturing venues and talented 7 -- and talent for multi-generational entertainment, 8 and provide diverse options for diverse ages, 9 cultures, and lifestyles." Milwaukee should, 10 quote, "facilitate dining and entertainment options 11 for residents and visitors. The Institute 12 recognizes that dining and entertainment businesses 13 often lead development that are crucial to 14 revitalizing neighborhoods." Retail follows. It 15 does not lead development. Diverse taverns and 16 entertainment facilities are almost invisible once 17 open. 18 How many here today were aware of a strip 19 club that existed for many, many years adjacent to 20 the downtown Marc Plaza Hotel? It didn't thwart 21 the development of downtown at all. It didn't 22 thwart the development of the Grand Avenue Mall. 23 How many here today have heard before 24 today's testimony anything about a strip club on 25 Juneau and Water, Art's Performance Center? This 307 1 has been in existence for decades. These are 2 invisible entertainment facilities. 3 It's submitted respectfully that your 4 decision today should not be based upon the type of 5 entertainment at this proposed facility. Once the 6 type of entertainment is excluded as a factor in 7 your decision-making process, the justification for 8 a recommendation to grant the licensed is 9 self-evident. 10 The entertainment facility will be 11 managed by a local, third-generation Milwaukean, 12 hands-on, respected operator with a successful 13 business plan and a proven track record of ten 14 years in Milwaukee. You do not need to guess about 15 success as you do with just about every other new 16 application that comes before you. It is already 17 happened for ten years in Milwaukee, and it will, 18 as well, happen downtown. 19 It is submitted respectfully that this 20 honorable Committee recommend to the Common Council 21 that these licenses be granted. And a year from 22 now, we will not reappear, five years from now. 23 The operation of this facility, as far as cause for 24 any concern to anyone, will be nonexistent. 25 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 308 1 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 2 We're in Committee. 3 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Mr. Chair. 4 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Alderman Kovac. 5 ALDERMAN KOVAC: I think overall, I have 6 to -- I'd like -- Mr. Whitcomb here would probably 7 agree with probably 90 percent of what 8 Alderman Bauman said. Ten percent I didn't -- I 9 forget already, though. 10 But the fundamental point you made to 11 open, though, which is that, you know, not much has 12 changed. This Committee made a pretty emphatic 13 decision two years ago. But we had the hearing 14 again because something might have changed. 15 The residents of 720 might have come here 16 and said, you know what, we've had two years to 17 think about it, to get to know this operation, and 18 these fears that you keep claiming are irrational. 19 We agree with you now because you've had two years 20 to convince us, so now we're convinced. 21 That's clearly not what we heard. So on 22 the basis of primarily neighborhood testimony, but 23 also Aldermanic testimony. Now his concerns are 24 mainly safety, but also the now famous American 25 Girl discussion, which I guess I'll -- no one's 309 1 actually repeated what he said. Everyone's just 2 referenced it. So for the sake of the CTR review 3 -- thank God it's not de novo review anymore -- So 4 for the sake of the CTR review that will be coming 5 on this argument -- which is that no one is going 6 to put an American Girl next to a gentlemen's club 7 no matter how discreet or professional you are. 8 And we still haven't gotten a American Girl. I 9 don't know what's taking them so long. But I think 10 the point has been made by Alderman Bauman, by 11 other experts like Mr. Chernof, and Mr. Weirick and 12 various other experts in the downtown area, this is 13 not part of the plan. 14 But I would actually put less weight on 15 that argument than I do on the neighborhood 16 testimony. Because the other thing Alderman Bauman 17 said is that there probably is a place for this 18 downtown. I'm not going to tell you where because 19 I don't know. But I'm pretty confident after a 20 couple half-day long hearings that Old World Third 21 Street and this block is probably not the spot, as 22 you've gotten very compelling testimony. There is 23 probably blocks in downtown where you won't hear 24 such testimony. And maybe we'll have a hearing on 25 that someday. 310 1 But I would move denial on both licenses. 2 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Based upon? 3 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Based upon neighborhood 4 and Aldermanic testimony. 5 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Discussions 6 on that, Alderman Dudzik? 7 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: No. No. 8 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: I thought, you 9 know -- 10 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I'll be happy to weigh 11 in. I don't believe an American Girl is coming to 12 Milwaukee any sooner than I see an IKEA coming to 13 Milwaukee in the downtown area, anyway. 14 And I believe -- and I'll take 15 Alderman Kovac and Alderman Bauman's lead that this 16 operator will find a location in the near future, 17 and they will be successful. And we still won't 18 have an American Girl or an IKEA anywhere in the 19 downtown area. 20 Mr. Ferraro will be running the place ten 21 years down the road, and I guarantee you, we still 22 won't have an American Girl in the downtown area, 23 store-wise. We've got wonderful American girls 24 that live in the City of Milwaukee, but we wouldn't 25 have an American Girl retail operation in the 311 1 downtown Milwaukee. 2 And I believe unfortunately, in all my 3 heart, that the Wisconsin Avenue corridor will 4 continue to languish in that same length of time. 5 I've known Mr. Ferraro to be a fabulous 6 operator. He's indicated, I met him when he was 7 25, 26 years old. Everything I'll ever asked him, 8 he did. He failed to mention a little ditty that 9 he did on his own. He had a neighbor that was 10 continuously calling many times with fabricated 11 complaints next to the location at 68th and 12 Oklahoma, you know, Bada Bings. And Mr. Ferraro's 13 solution was to buy the duplex and remove the 14 tenant and put in his managers. 15 So to the apartment building, be careful 16 what you wish for. He might come and buy you. 17 Wouldn't that be wonderful if you took 18 your building and sunk another couple million 19 dollars into it and made it an even higher venue. 20 I disagree with Alderman Bauman on one 21 aspect. I don't believe that -- although it would 22 be interesting to see all of these opponents to 23 development come out on every single time we have a 24 bar that is going to open up under somewhat much 25 more dubious operators, I don't believe you're 312 1 going to see the support. 2 And to a couple of them, I'm going to 3 point that out because I think if you're going to 4 beat one person up because of the entertainment, 5 then you ought to come out and beat other people up 6 because of the blood that's on your curbs. 7 So as I said, I will reluctantly support 8 this, at this time. 9 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Okay. Any further 10 questions or comments on the motion by 11 Alderman Kovac for denial? Based upon -- okay. 12 What we'll do is we'll take a role call 13 on motion. 14 THE CLERK: Alderwoman Coggs? 15 ALDERWOMAN COGGS: Aye. 16 THE CLERK: Alderman Kovac? 17 ALDERMAN KOVAC: Aye. 18 THE CLERK: Alderman Dudzik? 19 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Aye. 20 THE CLERK: Alderman Perez? 21 ALDERMAN PEREZ: Aye. 22 THE CLERK: Mr. Chair? 23 ALDERMAN ZIELINSKI: Aye. 24 Okay. The motion carries on a five to 25 zero vote. There being no further business before 313 1 this meeting -- before this Committee -- oh, we're 2 going to go back to Item Number 1, File 130768, 3 Alderwoman Coggs moves approval as amended. 4 Okay. Motion -- hold to the call of the 5 Chair. Thank you. There being no further business 6 before this Committee, this meeting stands as 7 adjourned. 8 (Whereupon proceedings concluded at 9 3:31 p.m.) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 314 1 STATE OF WISCONSIN ) ) SS: 2 COUNTY OF MILWAUKEE ) 3 4 5 I, KIMBERLY C. WATTENBACH, a Court 6 Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of 7 Wisconsin, do hereby certify that the hearing of the 8 LICENSES COMMITTEE for SILK EXOTIC was recorded by me on 9 November 6, 2013, and reduced to writing under my 10 personal direction. 11 I further certify that I am not a 12 relative or employee or attorney or counsel of any of 13 the parties, or a relative or employee of such attorney 14 or counsel, or financially interested directly or 15 indirectly in this action. 16 In witness whereof I have hereunder set 17 my hand and affixed my seal of office at Milwaukee, 18 Wisconsin, on November 16, 2013. 19 20 _________________________________ Notary Public 21 In and for the State of Wisconsin 22 23 My Commission Expires: December 16, 2013. 24 25