00001
1 CITY OF MILWAUKEE
2 UTILITIES & LICENSES COMMITTEE
3 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
4 In the Matter of:
5 ALPER, Bruce M., Agent for "Bruce Alper, LLC", Class B
Tavern and Tavern Dance applications for Dinero's Dance
6 and Beverage at 4177 South Howell Avenue.
7 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS
9 ALD. JAMES BOHL, JR. - Chairman
10 Ald. Joe Davis Sr. - Vice Chairman
11 Ald. Joseph A. Dudzik
12
13 DEPARTMENT OF NEIGHBORHOOD SERVICES by PANDORA BENDER
14 HEALTH DEPARTMENT by KEVIN HULBERT
15 LICENSE DIVISION by JAMES COPELAND
16 POLICE DEPARTMENT by SERGEANT JOHN HOGAN
17 OFFICE OF THE CITY ATTORNEY by BRUCE SCHRIMPF
18 Proceedings had and testimony given in
the above-entitled matter, before the UTILITIES &
19 LICENSING COMMITTEE OF THE CITY OF MILWAUKEE, on
the 30th day of September, 2003, reported by Donna
20 Gulczynski of Milwaukee Reporters Associated, Inc.
21
22
23
24
25
00002
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 (NOTE: All City Personnel Were Sworn Under
3 Oath Prior to These Proceedings.)
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The hopefully last, but
5 maybe not last, item on the 2:30 agenda is for Bruce
6 Alper, agent for Bruce Alper, LLC, Class B tavern and
7 tavern dance applications for Dinero's Dance and
8 Beverage at 4177 South Howell Avenue in the 13th
9 District. Good afternoon, Mr. Alper, I presume,
10 represented by Andy Arena.
11 MR. ARENA: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Alper, I will need you
13 to raise your right hand. We need to swear in also
14 Alderman Witkowski.
15 (Whereupon Mr. Alper and Alderman Witkowski
16 were sworn under oath.)
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And Mr. Alper, do you
18 acknowledge receiving notice of today's meeting with
19 the possibility that the application could be denied?
20 It is cited that in the past this location
21 has been the source of various neighborhood problems
22 as evidenced in the transcripts of court proceedings,
23 Utilities and Licenses Committee, Common Council
24 meetings and findings of fact presented to the Common
25 Council.
00003
1 The neighborhood problems include
2 disruptive patrons, the engaging of parties after
3 closing time, damaging the property of adjoining
4 neighbors and awaking them with loud noise, fights,
5 music and public drinking. Previous operators were
6 unable to control disruptive patrons, and that this
7 location has become a source of congregation of such
8 patrons.
9 In addition, they are engaged in public
10 urination, acts of sex in automobiles, running of
11 engines of various types of motor vehicles, and
12 loud -- the playing of loud stereo systems. Also
13 parking and traffic problems, suspected drug use,
14 drunkenness and excessive drinking, decrease in
15 property values, and ineffectiveness of security, a
16 new Class B license at this location will likely
17 result in the same conduct in the future. Do you
18 so acknowledge?
19 MR. ARENA: We acknowledge receiving the
20 notice, and I have filed on Friday, via hand
21 messenger, an objection to the notice, and -- you
22 know, ironically I was here today for the Newport
23 Lounge, whom I also represented in its last
24 incarnation before today, and at that time it was
25 brought up that this wasn't the forum for a
00004
1 neighborhood meeting.
2 And I thought it was interesting that
3 Vera Pollack, I believe her name is, read her letter,
4 and it's the same type of things, and we strenuously
5 object to that being relevant at this point.
6 You know, we litigated that matter in
7 circuit court twice. Once the city brought a nuisance
8 action, which was denied, and then secondly, we
9 brought an action, and the court decided on our side
10 and ordered that the license be issued.
11 MR. SCHRIMPF: No, no, no. The license was
12 not ordered issued. The matter was remanded to the
13 committee for further proceedings, and if I recall
14 correctly, the license was in fact not issued.
15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Mr. Arena, I don't --
16 MR. ARENA: My client voluntarily withdrew
17 his application at that time, but that all goes to
18 that particular person.
19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Mr. Arena, --
20 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman?
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: One second, Mr. Schrimpf.
22 I haven't seen a copy of your objection. Your verbal
23 objection here will be duly noted. I will say that to
24 my knowledge past conduct is acceptable to be cited,
25 and unless Mr. Schrimpf tells me otherwise, I believe
00005
1 it is certainly -- it's something that can be
2 considered by the committee.
3 MR. SCHRIMPF: Certainly relevant and may be
4 considered.
5 MR. ARENA: It's not his past conduct. The
6 location was not found to be unfit.
7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Understood. But unless --
8 I mean it's always been my understanding, based on my
9 experience on this committee, that past conduct at an
10 establishment can be utilized for a future application
11 there. Is that what you were about to say,
12 Mr. Schrimpf?
13 MR. SCHRIMPF: Yes. And I wanted to expand
14 on the fact that I have a copy of Mr. Arena's letter,
15 and he talks about the fact that the notice says --
16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, I don't -- I frankly
17 don't even want to go there because I am acknowledging
18 what he has indicated here. I'm going to say what's
19 here is here, and it duly stands because you, as the
20 representative -- or as the advisor of this body
21 indicated so, and that's always been my experience.
22 So we're going to move on, Mr. Arena. Appreciate
23 that. Health Department?
24 MR. HULBERT: No objection.
25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Neighborhood Services?
00006
1 MS. BENDER: Hold for occupancy.
2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Do we have --
3 SERGEANT HOGAN: There is no police reports.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. There is no police
5 reports. Before we get to you, Mr. Arena, we're going
6 to have Alderman Witkowski make an opening
7 presentation and provide a presentation.
8 I will be right here, and I'll be making a
9 phone call to ensure -- Maybe I have to stick around
10 later, and somebody will cover my neighborhood
11 meeting, or at least the door, so that those residents
12 don't walk to the door and wonder why the alderman
13 isn't there, thinking that their alderman is eating
14 dinner at Taco Bell when I'm not.
15 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: Thank you,
16 Mr. Chairman. Terry Witkowski, Alderman. I want to
17 thank the committee for staying awake this long and
18 hope that we'll get you out of here on time.
19 I also want to thank the neighborhood for
20 their patience. I came across this issue some two
21 months before I was elected to this office and was --
22 walked into a neighborhood where the neighborhood was
23 extremely concerned about the disruption that this
24 establishment caused to their neighborhood.
25 I have held meetings with them. I've had
00007
1 the applicant and the neighborhood come together, and
2 wound up with 21 residents -- or, I'm sorry, 28
3 residents at that meeting. After the hour and 45
4 minutes, or hour and a half meeting, I had asked the
5 residents if they were in favor of it or whether they
6 were not in favor of it. To the person, they all
7 indicated that they were against any license being
8 issued at this location.
9 The group indicated that -- The people who
10 were notified for that were the same people that were
11 notified for this meeting, occupying the 4100 and 4200
12 blocks of South 1st Place, 1st Street, Burrell and
13 Howell Avenue, and had 28 show up for an evening
14 meeting.
15 I asked them if they were interested -- if
16 all of them had come there to object, and that was not
17 the case. There were people that came there because
18 they believed the building was vacant and wanted some
19 business in there. However, after hearing the
20 questions -- hearing Mr. Alper's responses, they
21 were -- they indicated to me that they had changed
22 their mind and objected to this type of establishment
23 at that location.
24 It's basically the same type of operation
25 that this council has heard before, this committee's
00008
1 heard before, the circuit court has heard before.
2 There's not any change from what we can tell. I'd
3 like to present the list to the committee so you can
4 see --
5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Witkowski, what is
6 this that you're trying to present to us here?
7 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: This is a list of
8 people attending the neighborhood meeting last week
9 Monday night, who indicated that they were not
10 supportive of this.
11 MR. ARENA: I'm going to object,
12 Mr. Chairman.
13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Was the applicant privy to
14 this meeting?
15 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: The applicant was
16 present at this meeting, yes.
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf?
18 MR. ARENA: It's my understanding that this
19 committee does not accept signed petitions or
20 statements.
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Is this just a sign-in
22 sheet?
23 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: It's a sign-in sheet
24 with the 20 -- well, 30 people. The applicant and the
25 past owner were present.
00009
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Is there anything more than
2 just the documentation that you had a meeting and that
3 there were 30 present?
4 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: No, there's not.
5 MR. SCHRIMPF: What would be the relevance?
6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yeah, I don't know if
7 there's a relevance to that. We'll just accept that a
8 meeting was held, and that there were a substantial
9 number of people there.
10 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: Let me also indicate
11 that we've had a postcard survey, and we had a good
12 response. We had 55 percent of the people respond
13 that they did not want this application to be
14 approved.
15 The people from the neighborhood, as I said,
16 have been very involved. They have responded to me.
17 They have called me on this item. They have -- 98 of
18 them returned postcards. It certainly is a
19 neighborhood concern. Not only that, they have been
20 here in the past to talk to the council and talk to
21 the committee, and I would -- Rather than go on, I
22 would rather have the neighborhood, who's taken their
23 time to come here this afternoon, make presentations.
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. We'll get to that
25 shortly here, Alderman. It is cited for neighborhood
00010
1 objections. I do want to see a show of hands of
2 anyone who is here to testify in this matter. First a
3 show of those who are here to testify in opposition,
4 if you could raise your hand.
5 Is there anyone here to testify in favor?
6 Okay. I see none that way. Before we get to you, I'm
7 going to allow Mr. Arena to provide an opportunity to
8 provide his opening statement. Mr. Arena?
9 MR. ARENA: Well, I think procedurally,
10 first off, I'd like an opportunity to cross-examine
11 the alderman.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Absolutely. You know the
13 procedure. You ask questions to us and --
14 MR. ARENA: I have some brief questions,
15 Alderman. First of all, are you aware that a Class B
16 license existed at this premise for over 35 years? Or
17 25 years, excuse me.
18 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: I'm not aware of how
19 long it's been there.
20 MR. ARENA: And you would agree that it's
21 important for the neighborhood, the community, to have
22 some ongoing business in that particular building; is
23 that true?
24 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: I have had neighborhood
25 concerns that the building is vacant. I've also had
00011
1 concerns about what type of business, and how well it
2 would match the neighborhood before it went in.
3 MR. ARENA: Are you opposed, or is the
4 neighborhood opposed, to any type of a business that
5 would have a Class B license to operate in the
6 premise?
7 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: I have heard from
8 constituents that have indicated that depending on the
9 type of business, they would not be opposed, but they
10 are opposed to this application.
11 MR. ARENA: Were you familiar with the
12 operation as it existed the last time it was licensed?
13 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: From what I read about
14 it and the concerns that I got from the neighbors, to
15 that extent, yes.
16 MR. ARENA: And would you agree that the
17 main concern, or if there was a problem, was resulting
18 around times when live music was presented?
19 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: The concerns had to
20 deal with a variety of things. I don't know that
21 people were specific about it being live music as
22 opposed to having a D.J. or having other events. I
23 think you'd be better off asking the next witnesses
24 that question.
25 MR. ARENA: Was any specific music ever
00012
1 discussed, the type of music?
2 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: What was discussed was
3 the loudness, the vibrating of houses, or the
4 vibrating of the building and people in the houses as
5 a result of the volume of the music there, but I never
6 got a complaint about a specific type of music.
7 MR. ARENA: Okay. I have no further
8 questions at this time. I would just like to add, my
9 client is 53 years old. He's been in this type of a
10 business before. There was a plan of operation that
11 was submitted. I don't know if you've all received
12 it.
13 It basically is his intention to have
14 country music and line dancing. He does come with
15 experience. He operated a place called the Rodeo
16 Saloon some years ago. At that time he was successful
17 and eventually got out of the business, went into
18 another business that had a Class B license that was
19 called the Dance and Beverage Company at the Red
20 Carpet Lanes, I believe, near the airport. Neither of
21 those establishments had any issues or problems in the
22 way they were operated.
23 He's aware of some of the problems here
24 because he did attend the neighborhood meeting. I
25 think he comes to the table as a mature, able and
00013
1 capable individual to operate the location. It is his
2 intention to serve food, and it is his intention to
3 offer country dancing and music. I don't think that
4 that's an extremely loud form of entertainment.
5 I believe the last license holder had
6 country music on two or three nights a week, and
7 there weren't any problems or complaints at that time
8 about -- concerning those nights when there was
9 country music.
10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Arena, the question I
11 have for you is in the application for a tavern dance
12 license, Mr. Alper has indicated a format of popular
13 music. For my edification and the committee's
14 edification, what is popular music? Versus unpopular?
15 I mean is that --
16 MR. ARENA: That's a general term. We're
17 willing to amend the application in any way to satisfy
18 the committee today.
19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm just wondering what type
20 of specific music -- I mean, what -- Mr. Alper, what
21 is your definition of popular? Does that mean
22 contemporary adult that we hear on 97.3 or The Mix, or
23 does it mean something else?
24 MR. ALPER: Yeah, it would mean that. It
25 would mean oldies. It would mean that. It wouldn't
00014
1 mean hard rock. It wouldn't mean, you know, that acid
2 type of music. It could be Frank Sinatra. He's
3 popular.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. But Metallica's
5 popular some people would say.
6 MR. ALPER: Well, I'm saying not the hard
7 metal, not that kind of music. That's not my
8 generation. I don't listen to that. I can't stand
9 places that play that.
10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. And you do
11 understand, and I know that Mr. Arena understands
12 this, that the committee does not have the
13 jurisdiction to ensure that it's a format that is --
14 even a format that you indicate here under oath is
15 indeed something that you follow through on.
16 I'm asking you if you understand that you
17 could indicate to us that you intend to play Frank
18 Sinatra, but you could go back and indeed play
19 Metallica if you are granted this license.
20 MR. ALPER: Are you asking me am I aware of
21 that?
22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yes.
23 MR. ALPER: Actually I wasn't, but --
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You are now. Okay.
25 Questions by committee of Mr. Arena or Mr. Alper?
00015
1 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman?
2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf, go ahead.
3 MR. SCHRIMPF: Thank you. As I understand
4 it, you currently operate three or four different
5 places?
6 MR. ALPER: No, no. Several years ago.
7 MR. ARENA: Many years ago.
8 MR. SCHRIMPF: What is your plan in terms of
9 being present at this location should the license be
10 granted?
11 MR. ALPER: When am I going to be around?
12 MR. SCHRIMPF: Yes.
13 MR. ALPER: As often I can.
14 MR. SCHRIMPF: Can you be a little more
15 specific?
16 MR. ALPER: Most nights.
17 MR. SCHRIMPF: Any nights when you plan on
18 not to be there?
19 MR. ALPER: I'd probably take a night off.
20 MR. SCHRIMPF: Would you be there Friday,
21 Saturday, Sunday?
22 MR. ALPER: Yes, I probably would be.
23 MR. SCHRIMPF: Till closing?
24 MR. ALPER: Yeah.
25 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's all I have,
00016
1 Mr. Chairman.
2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Arena, I've got to call
3 a 30-second recess and just chat with you and Alderman
4 Witkowski here. Everybody sit tight. I apologize for
5 the delay, but I'll call a 30-second recess.
6 (Recess held.)
7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. This is how we're
8 going to proceed. I just want to let you know my
9 conflict is resolved. Alderman Davis has some
10 previously scheduled neighborhood meeting at 6:00.
11 He's got to leave City Hall here at 5:30 to get to the
12 northwest side by 6:00 with traffic, which means we
13 have to have the residential testimony provided for
14 literally within about 27 minutes, take this into
15 committee, hear from Mr. Arena with a closing
16 statement, and be ready to render a decision by 5:30
17 if we're going to take this up today.
18 I would ask -- Some of us here -- and I know
19 that there are some new members here as well, too. I
20 may be the only person who's heard some of this
21 testimony in the past. But what I can say is this.
22 You come forward, provide your name and address. I
23 know most of you have been here before. We'd ask that
24 you provide the testimony.
25 By the time we get to the point where I
00017
1 think two or three start talking about screeching cars
2 and urinating and leaving litter on the yard, I think
3 we get to the point where we're duplicitous in our
4 testimony, we're duplicating it, and we can
5 substantially agree with that, unless you have
6 something new and substantial.
7 We'll try to proceed and get this done here
8 today with all due haste, so if we could start taking
9 up -- We can take the four seats up here. Everybody
10 has been sworn in; is that correct?
11 MR. ARENA: No.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Oh. We'll have you all
13 raise your right hands, and we'll swear you in en
14 masse.
15 (Whereupon all witnesses were sworn under
16 oath.)
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You can start moving
18 forward, and start taking the seats four at a time.
19 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: Mr. Chairman, I assume
20 I also get closing remarks?
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yes, you do. As soon as --
22 And what I'll ask you is as soon as you provide your
23 testimony, and we have the cross-examination, and
24 you're done, that you leave your seat and somebody
25 could start filtering to the front row and start
00018
1 taking the seats, and we'll go my left to right, your
2 right to left. Sir, your name and your address,
3 please, for the record.
4 MR. WETRICH: My name is Kevin Wetrich. I
5 live at 121 West --
6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And -- I'm sorry. If you
7 have a difficult name, to spell your last name. If
8 there's any question, if you could immediately spell
9 the last name, please.
10 MR. WETRICH: My name is Kevin Wetrich,
11 W-e-t-r-i-c-h. I live at 121 West Plainfield Avenue.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead, Mr. Wetrich.
13 MR. WETRICH: I'm here representing the
14 Tippecanoe Neighborhood Association as its president,
15 and I have a brief statement I'd like to read. It's
16 very short.
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Please. Go ahead.
18 MR. WETRICH: Good afternoon. As president
19 of Tippecanoe Neighborhood Association, I'm here today
20 to present a statement which represents the collective
21 opinion of its members regarding the application for a
22 Class B tavern and dance license at 4177 South Howell
23 Avenue.
24 Within the scope of this hearing you'll have
25 the opportunity to listen to concerns from my
00019
1 neighbors regarding the negative effect such an
2 establishment has previously had on our neighborhood.
3 These concerns include, but are not limited to, loud
4 music from the building late into the night, congested
5 cars parking on the street around our homes, loud
6 patrons walking to and from their cars, squealing
7 tires late at night, verbal and physical altercations,
8 trash in yards, public urination, public sexual
9 conduct.
10 We are also concerned about what this type
11 of establishment will have on our property values
12 within our neighborhood, the increased potential of
13 damage to our property, and the personal safety of
14 those who reside in our neighborhood.
15 Because of these concerns, we strongly
16 oppose the granting of this license. We have fought
17 this battle before, we'll fight it again. We'll not
18 stand idly by while our neighborhood, the neighborhood
19 in which we all have chosen to reside, to return to an
20 undesirable neighborhood in which to live in. We ask
21 you to listen to our concerns with open minds, and
22 willingness to support us as citizens of Milwaukee.
23 Thank you for your time.
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mr. Wetrich. Was
25 this something that was taken up by the entire board
00020
1 of the Tippecanoe Neighborhood Association at a
2 meeting? I just wanted the nature of --
3 MR. WETRICH: I was asked by our neighbor-
4 hood association to present an opening summary comment
5 of our collective view.
6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. You've indicated
7 collective view. The question I'm asking is, was
8 there a formal meeting where hands were raised? Was
9 there a meeting of the board where there was a formal
10 vote taken? What does the collective view mean? What
11 does collective mean?
12 MR. WETRICH: At our meeting, our last
13 meeting, the group there asked me as a whole to
14 present a statement.
15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. So there was a formal
16 meeting?
17 MR. WETRICH: Yes.
18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions by
19 committee? Mr. Arena?
20 MR. ARENA: How long have you lived at 121
21 West Plainfield?
22 MR. WETRICH: About four years.
23 MR. ARENA: Were you aware, prior to moving
24 there, that there was a Class B licensed establishment
25 on the corner, which is 4177 South Howell?
00021
1 MR. WETRICH: Yes, I was.
2 MR. ARENA: Are you opposed to any type of
3 Class B license being operated in that facility?
4 MR. WETRICH: No, I'm not.
5 MR. ARENA: I have no further questions.
6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: One follow-up. Would you be
7 in support of Mr. Alper applying for only a Class B
8 tavern, if there was no tavern dance associated with
9 it?
10 MR. WETRICH: I'm afraid from -- that at the
11 community meeting we had last week and his responses
12 to the community's concern, it sounds like the same
13 format that was exactly run there previously, so I'm
14 not willing to revisit this issue again with this type
15 of establishment.
16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. I'll take that as a
17 no.
18 MR. WETRICH: It's a no.
19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you.
20 MR. ARENA: Can I have one follow-up,
21 Mr. Chairman?
22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Absolutely.
23 MR. ARENA: What if in fact he did amend his
24 application to serve food and just have Class B
25 tavern, no dance. Would you be opposed to that?
00022
1 MR. WETRICH: Yes.
2 MR. ARENA: So you'd be opposed to any type
3 of Class B establishment being operated at that
4 facility.
5 MR. WETRICH: No, I'm not. With his current
6 business plan, the same format, same facility without
7 any updates, no, I do not want to see this happen
8 again.
9 MR. ARENA: So if he said that he would
10 serve food and have a restaurant, and have a Class B
11 establishment for the purpose of serving liquor and no
12 dancing or music, you'd still be opposed.
13 MR. WETRICH: If his focus was a restaurant
14 that has a bar, I would not be, but from my
15 understanding of his business plan, it's a bar first
16 that serves food, so I am opposed to that.
17 MR. ARENA: Okay. Nothing further.
18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, sir.
19 MR. PLAIN: Hello. My name is Craig Plain,
20 P-l-a-i-n. I live at 4178 South 1st Street. That's
21 directly behind the property. I just have a quick
22 handout that I'll go over the highlights very quickly.
23 MR. ARENA: I'm going to object to this
24 hearsay and handouts. This is ridiculous. We could
25 have Vera Pollack write a letter about every bar, if
00023
1 that's what --
2 MR. PLAIN: No, no. This is just to cover
3 my highlights, just to cover my points.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Arena, if he's here, and
5 it's all things that he's personally seen or heard,
6 provided you give a copy to Mr. Arena, -- Proceed,
7 please, Mr. Plain.
8 MR. PLAIN: Thank you. First of all,
9 Mr. Alper's business plan, which I received from the
10 clerk of licensing, specifically states he plans on
11 offering country, '70s, '80s, pop, pop 40, R&B music,
12 not just country. He's amending it on the fly.
13 He was specifically asked at the town hall
14 meeting if he would bring in club bands, the kind of
15 bands that we saw problems with under the old Dinero's
16 format, and he replied, "I would go to the old format
17 if it came to that."
18 We feel that the same -- the problems we've
19 seen in the past establishment would carry forward.
20 We base this basically on his business plan and town
21 hall meeting, the similarity of applications regarding
22 format and operations, and the applicant's business
23 plan being so vague and general as to give him leeway
24 to do whatever he wants with it. You know about the
25 documented police reports including drugs, guns,
00024
1 battery, including a battery on an officer.
2 There have been hundreds of calls and
3 complaints to the police and the alderman on all the
4 things right out of Chapter 81.08 and State Statute
5 125, disorderly conduct, et cetera, you read them, yet
6 it never received an official stamp of unfit location
7 because of the legal finagling. There was a
8 nonrenewal for cabaret license under the old Dinero's
9 format. The city sought an injunction under the
10 nuisance law, but the court did not find in their
11 favor. Either way, they basically said this is a
12 matter for revocation by U & L. We went through that.
13 The Common Council voted 12 to 5 to revoke the
14 license. On appeals the court brought it back,
15 basically saying that the alderman was representing us
16 with a biased opinion. He was for his constituents
17 that were outcrying about this. So while we never got
18 the actual stamp, we maintain the fact, though, it is
19 an unfit location due to those actions.
20 Also the environment, there's only one empty
21 building within a five-block radius. It's not like
22 it's a blighted area. There's been great businesses
23 moving into buildings; Family Dollar directly across
24 the street, the Journal/Sentinel where Mr. Alper
25 believes he can park, there's an old Journal/Sentinel
00025
1 building that's been rehabbed with an overhead garage
2 service door. People have built -- bought property
3 behind that and done a fantastic job refurbishing
4 them. It doesn't mix with the commercial. We realize
5 it's zoned for it. However, it doesn't fit into the
6 mix, a large dance hall like that.
7 We're also concerned about our property
8 values. Researching this, I've seen anywhere from --
9 studies that cite a 16 percent decrease down to --
10 When I refinanced my house, the appraiser said I can
11 expect a 5 to 10 percent decrease, to a 4 percent
12 decrease by a Department of Housing study. If you
13 apply that conservative 4 percent, we can see that 28
14 properties -- just taking the number of people that
15 came to the town hall meeting, we would see a decrease
16 of over $124,000 in value, and that's just the tip of
17 the iceberg. There's many, many more properties that
18 would be impacted by that.
19 In addition, because it assesses only 80
20 percent of the value, it would be greater than that,
21 okay? So the city stands to lose tax base for an
22 establishment that would incur more services on police
23 and fire services. In addition, the property itself
24 is over $9,700 delinquent in taxes going back to 1999.
25 So basically we'd like to ask you to deny
00026
1 the tavern and dance license for this application, and
2 declare this location unfit for a dance hall.
3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: One brief question for
4 Mr. Copeland and Mr. Schrimpf. I don't know and
5 having not read this here, does it require a previous
6 notification for unfit location specifically to be
7 written in for that to be considered? Yes or no?
8 MR. COPELAND: I'd have to defer to
9 Mr. Schrimpf, but I'd also point out Attorney Arena's
10 letter, he states about unfit location.
11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. In the notification
12 sent to Mr. Alper or Mr. Arena, does it require
13 written in, declared unfit location, in order for the
14 committee to consider that? Yes or no?
15 MR. ARENA: I think you have to give notice
16 to the actual owner of the building.
17 MR. SCHRIMPF: I think you would, that's
18 right. You have to give notice to the owner of the
19 building.
20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Plain, I just want to
21 let you and everyone else know, it's not previously
22 noticed. That may be an error of omission, but it's
23 not here before us. We can't consider that particular
24 aspect, okay, because I don't want to hear it in the
25 future. I appreciate your testimony here. Questions
00027
1 by committee of Mr. Plain? Alderman Dudzik would move
2 to make this handout part of our record. Is there any
3 objection to that? Duly noting Mr. Arena's, hearing
4 none, so ordered. Mr. Arena?
5 MR. ARENA: I have one brief question. You
6 have no idea whether or not the way in which this
7 would be operated would result in the same problems
8 that occurred in the past with Mr. Alper operating it.
9 MR. PLAIN: Given the written business plan
10 submitted by Mr. Alper on his application, I am
11 convinced that it would result in the same problems.
12 MR. ARENA: That would be speculative,
13 wouldn't it?
14 MR. PLAIN: The format is the same, the
15 operation is the same, the hours are the same, the
16 name is the same. He could provide no substantial
17 differences between his establishment and past
18 establishments.
19 We specifically asked, "What are your plans
20 regarding security?" "I'll have some people at the
21 door." "What about soundproofing to the walls to
22 prevent the sound?" Nothing. "What about increasing
23 bathroom space?" Nothing. So --
24 MR. ARENA: Let me ask you the same question
25 that I asked the previous witness. If he amended his
00028
1 application, and he was seeking just food and the
2 Class B tavern without the dance, would you still be
3 opposed to this license?
4 MR. PLAIN: Yes, I would be opposed.
5 MR. ARENA: Nothing further.
6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you.
7 MRS. PLAIN: My name is Sally Plain. I live
8 at 4178 South 1st Street. I live directly behind the
9 establishment. I'll keep mine brief because that was
10 my husband prior to, and he basically spoke for me.
11 I have two children, ages 14 and 10. For
12 the past four years, not only myself and my husband
13 have had to deal with this type of establishment, but
14 so do my children. The neighborhood is filled with
15 children. Mr. Alper's also asking, you know, to start
16 his establishment opening at four p.m. The hours,
17 every night keeping us up, keeping my children up, I
18 strongly oppose this.
19 And with Mr. Alper's response to our
20 questions at the open meeting, at the open public
21 meeting, as to, you know, what if this -- you know,
22 what if you're playing this type of music and it
23 fails, would you hire, you know, like the Love Monkeys
24 and all those big name bands, and he said he would do
25 anything to make this establishment go. That's saying
00029
1 to me our concerns that we presented to him don't
2 matter.
3 And so, therefore, I can speak on my behalf
4 as to a question Mr. Arena asked the previous two
5 people as a restaurant and having a Class B, people
6 are probably opposed because he doesn't have a
7 specific business plan regarding a restaurant and just
8 a Class B without a dance floor. I don't think we're
9 here for that. We're here for what he's presenting
10 us, and what he's presenting us is all types of music,
11 and he'll do anything to make a buck there.
12 So I strongly urge you to vote against
13 having this type of establishment there because of the
14 type of clientele. So if you don't want to -- If we
15 can't say it's an unfit location, it's the type of
16 clientele. I'm not so opposed to him getting a liquor
17 license if he wants to go somewhere else and get one.
18 It's not personally against Mr. Alper himself, but the
19 type of establishment and the clientele that it
20 attracts to our neighborhood.
21 And we have proven time after time coming in
22 front of this committee, going in front of the court,
23 that -- and we were told by police officers that there
24 is no control, that anybody has the right to park
25 wherever they want, and an establishment cannot ask
00030
1 them or tell them not to park there.
2 And I'm tired of seeing drugs and all the
3 other stuff that you listed at the very beginning of
4 this meeting. I do not want to see that again. We've
5 had a quiet neighborhood for the past year, and that's
6 what we want. And we would love to see an
7 establishment go in there that we, as the community,
8 can pour our money back into, and nobody in this
9 community that I know of is willing to pour their
10 community into a nightclub, so --
11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mrs. Plain.
12 Questions by committee?
13 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chair?
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Dudzik.
15 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Two real quick ones. How
16 long have you lived there?
17 MRS. PLAIN: I've lived there for five and a
18 half years.
19 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: A question for Alderman
20 Witkowski. Terry, do you know when the last time the
21 place was operated? I believe it was a bowling alley
22 at one time, wasn't it?
23 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: It was, but when it
24 switched, I'm not aware of it.
25 MRS. PLAIN: Well, it switched after we
00031
1 moved in there.
2 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: So it was a bowling alley?
3 MRS. PLAIN: It was a bowling alley when I
4 moved in there.
5 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you.
6 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chair.
7 ALDERMAN BOHL: Alderman Davis.
8 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mrs. Plain, what is the
9 average age -- you know, since you've been there and
10 the youth have switched, what was the, you know,
11 estimation on the average age of the patrons that was
12 there?
13 MRS. PLAIN: Between -- In their 20s and
14 30s.
15 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Okay. I'm trying to find
16 some analogy as far as some of the neighborhood
17 complaints, and I heard Mr. Alper mentioned Frank
18 Sinatra, and I know the younger generation probably
19 don't even know who Frank Sinatra is, so I'm just
20 trying to draw an analogy of the past history of it.
21 So are you saying under 30 was the patronage before
22 this use?
23 MRS. PLAIN: Correct.
24 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you.
00032
1 MR. ARENA: Mr. Chair? I have two
2 questions.
3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right, Mr. Arena. Go
4 ahead, please.
5 MR. ARENA: When this was operated as a
6 bowling alley, they had a Class B license and there
7 was a bar.
8 MRS. PLAIN: That's right.
9 MR. ARENA: And also in the bar at night
10 there was dancing in the barroom, wasn't there?
11 MRS. PLAIN: Not to my knowledge. While it
12 was a bowling alley?
13 MR. ARENA: Yes.
14 MRS. PLAIN: Not to my knowledge. That
15 there was dancing in there? I never saw it, and I
16 would go into the establishment because when we moved
17 in there, we ate there almost every night for a month
18 because we didn't have a refrigerator or anything, and
19 I was in there and there wasn't dancing, so --
20 MR. ARENA: Well, what time did you
21 typically leave? What was the latest you've ever
22 been there?
23 MRS. PLAIN: Well, actually after our
24 friends would come over and help us paint, sometimes
25 we'd go in there, maybe 8:00 at night.
00033
1 MR. ARENA: Okay. No further questions.
2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mrs. Plain.
3 Ma'am?
4 MS. FREDA: My name is Carol Freda,
5 F-r-e-d-a, and I live at 4214 South 1st Street. Our
6 yard faces -- our backyard faces the parking spots and
7 the front door of the building. I'm here to strongly
8 oppose the license, also. Basically I agree with
9 everything that has been said so far.
10 I have seen so many things just from my
11 backyard from the other establishment that was -- It
12 was just ridiculous. My son couldn't sleep. There
13 were fights constantly, and everything has been
14 mentioned. I'm not going to go through it again.
15 But basically, you know, we don't want this
16 in our neighborhood. It's too big of a place. There
17 is not enough parking space for them, and he can maybe
18 control his patrons once they're in the bar, but when
19 they are coming and leaving, and the flow is going on
20 into our neighborhood, there is no control. He can't
21 control those people once they're in our yards, in our
22 neighborhood and in our streets, and I strongly oppose
23 it.
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Miss Freda.
25 Questions by committee? Mr. Arena?
00034
1 MR. ARENA: None.
2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Sir?
3 MR. CRUZ: Hi. My name is Agapito Cruz.
4 That's A-g-a-p-i-t-o. Cruz, C-r-u-z. I live at
5 4200 South 1st Street. I'm just down the block on 1st
6 and Plainfield. I'm on the corner there.
7 I just ask that you vote no for his license.
8 We've experienced the same stuff, everything that
9 you've mentioned and they've mentioned, so I'm just
10 asking you not to issue them a license.
11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you for your brevity.
12 I assume there's no questions by committee or
13 Mr. Arena on that item.
14 MR. ARENA: No.
15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Ma'am?
16 MS. BREITZMAN: My name is Janet Breitzman,
17 B-r-e-i-t-z-m-a-n. I live at 4156 South 1st Street,
18 and I'm here to say that I object to this
19 establishment, also.
20 I find that there are 11 places that sell
21 liquor -- well, 10 places that sell liquor within a
22 four-block area in our neighborhood, between Bolivar
23 Avenue and Howard Avenue, and then there's an 11th
24 establishment, which is about three blocks west of
25 this place that we're talking about. I would think
00035
1 that that's too many places that sell liquor.
2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mrs. Breitzman, that may be,
3 but this item is not cited for concentration of
4 outlets.
5 MS. BREITZMAN: Well, I don't care. I'm
6 just saying --
7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No, no. I understand. I
8 appreciate it, and I would go out of my way to
9 appreciate it for you. I just want to let you know, I
10 don't make the laws. I'm just here to tell you as the
11 committee chairman, I'm required to enforce the law.
12 The law states in order for us to factor in
13 concentration, it must be cited for concentration.
14 The alderman hasn't presented a concentration map. It
15 was not cited, we don't have a concentration map, we
16 can't factor it in. Because of our time crunch, I
17 can't hear items and argue with you over items that we
18 can't hear, so --
19 MS. BREITZMAN: But then I wish someone
20 would tell us what we can do.
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Everything I read from
22 neighborhood problems to disruptive patrons,
23 everything that was read before, can be cited.
24 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chair, since -- and I
25 don't mean to cut you off, but in respect for Alderman
00036
1 Witkowski's constituents, I'll stay until the
2 testimony is over with because I know the crunch that
3 the committee is in. I'll just have to explain to my
4 constituents why I'm late, and I'm pretty sure that
5 they'll understand why I'm late if I'm conducting city
6 business, so --
7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Alderman Davis.
8 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Especially since you're on
9 live television.
10 MS. BREITZMAN: I'm just complaining about
11 having the nightclub there because of the fact of the
12 loud music, the noise, the people, the reckless
13 driving and all this and that.
14 And when we were at the library for the
15 public meeting, Mr. Alper did not know what his plan
16 really was. We asked him questions, and he couldn't
17 answer, so we know that it's going to be the same
18 thing it was before, and we're all fed up with it.
19 And I don't think we should have -- And
20 your Department of Neighborhood Services says,
21 "Neighborhoods of choice are neighborhoods where
22 residents can sleep undisturbed. We all have a right
23 to the quiet enjoyment of our homes." We all do.
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You're right about that,
25 Mrs. Breitzman. Mrs. Breitzman, do you live across
00037
1 the alley from the location here?
2 MRS. BREITZMAN: No. I live about two
3 houses in back of it, behind Howell Avenue Motors.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay.
5 MRS. BREITZMAN: And I get all the loud
6 pounding of the music in the walls of my house.
7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. All right. Thank
8 you.
9 MRS. BREITZMAN: And I asked him if he was
10 willing to do anything about the sound, and he said
11 no, because he's not going to spend $2,000 for a new
12 sign, so he's not going to spend any money for
13 soundproofing that building.
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Thank you. Questions
15 by committee? Mr. Arena?
16 MR. ARENA: Did you ask him if he was going
17 to have any sound equipment in there, at least the
18 sound that would create this pounding?
19 MRS. BREITZMAN: Well, that's ridiculous
20 that you even ask that.
21 MR. ARENA: Did you ask him that question?
22 MRS. BREITZMAN: No, but if you have music,
23 you --
24 MR. ARENA: So you don't know --
25 MRS. BREITZMAN: Listen. If you have music
00038
1 in a building, you have the sound.
2 MR. ARENA: I ask the questions. You have
3 to answer the question, ma'am.
4 MRS. BREITZMAN: I am.
5 MR. ARENA: You don't know what type of
6 music or what's going to happen.
7 MRS. BREITZMAN: No.
8 MR. ARENA: And you'd be opposed to any type
9 of Class B license.
10 MRS. BREITZMAN: I would be opposed to
11 anything --
12 MR. ARENA: Any type of Class B license,
13 correct?
14 MRS. BREITZMAN: Yes, right.
15 MR. ARENA: Okay. Nothing further.
16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mrs. Breitzman.
17 Sir?
18 MR. WADE: My name is Robert Wade, W-a-d-e.
19 I live at 4149 South Burrell. My house is behind the
20 Family Dollar parking lot, which used to be the Sentry
21 Store, which is where a lot of the unauthorized
22 parking went on. I have witnessed the urination and
23 threatened on my own property, had bottles thrown at
24 me. And that's pretty well documented things.
25 My main concern is it seems to be the same
00039
1 type of business going in there. It's not a
2 neighborhood type business. It's a business that
3 relies on bringing others into our neighborhood, and
4 then not being able to control them. The fact that
5 they need to be controlled and policed speaks loudly
6 enough why this shouldn't be granted.
7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mr. Wade, for
8 your brevity. Questions by committee of Mr. Wade?
9 Mr. Arena?
10 MR. ARENA: Do you have personal knowledge
11 that there wasn't an agreement that cars could park in
12 the Sentry parking lot?
13 MR. WADE: Yes. I spoke with the manager of
14 Sentry.
15 MR. ARENA: Did you speak to the owner?
16 MR. WADE: I spoke to the manager of the
17 Sentry, and he said --
18 MR. ARENA: You never spoke to the owner,
19 though.
20 MR. WADE: He said there was no agreement
21 to allow them to park there. I would assume the
22 manager of the store would know.
23 MR. ARENA: Nothing further.
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mr. Wade. Ma'am?
25 MS. PROTHERO: My name is Susan Prothero,
00040
1 P-r-o-t-h-e-r-o. I live at 4222 South 1st Street.
2 My husband and I and our daughter have lived in this
3 neighborhood for 13 years, all of which Blue Jay Bowl
4 has been there, we've been through Daddio's, Dinero's,
5 Mickey D's. We never had a problem with the bowling
6 alley even though they did have a liquor license.
7 They closed usually between 10, 10:30, 11:00, I
8 believe is the latest.
9 So I don't feel that there was -- We never
10 had a problem with Blue Jay Bowl. I strongly oppose
11 this licensing for this establishment, the same type
12 of establishment. I just don't feel that anything is
13 going to change if he is granted this license. He has
14 the same format, and it's just going to be the same
15 old problems over and over again, and I don't want to
16 take my time any more to come down here and fight this
17 battle.
18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Miss Prothero.
19 Questions by committee? Mr. Arena?
20 MR. ARENA: None.
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you very much for
22 coming down. Ma'am?
23 MS. CHIAVEROTTI: My name is Shirley
24 Chiaverotti, C-h-i-a-v-e-r-o-t-t-i. I live at 4166
25 South 1st Street.
00041
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Please proceed.
2 MS. CHIAVEROTTI: I strongly oppose the
3 licensing for this gentleman to open this bar. My
4 neighbors' problems and concerns are my problems and
5 concerns as well. And I have lived in my house for
6 approximately 12 years, and for four of those 12 years
7 I fought along with my neighbors to get our
8 neighborhood back to a nice quiet place to live.
9 I'm a taxpayer. I'm a homeowner. I pay
10 taxes. I think I'm entitled to a decent neighborhood
11 to live in. So I strongly oppose the licensing.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mrs. Chiaverotti.
13 Questions by committee? Mr. Arena?
14 MR. ARENA: No.
15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you very much. Sir?
16 MR. HELSPER: My name is Ted Helsper. I
17 live at 41 --
18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sir, you're --
19 MR. HELSPER: H-e-l-s-p-e-r. I live at
20 4151 South 1st Street.
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sir, I'm sorry, your first
22 name again was?
23 MR. HELSPER: Ted.
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Ted. Thank you.
25 MR. HELSPER: I have six children. Several
00042
1 of them have had problems, because they walk in the
2 neighborhood, with the clientele that was previously
3 in the tavern. The same type of outdoor aspect is
4 apparently what Mr. Alper is going to have on nice
5 days. If you can't even walk down your street without
6 being harassed, there's something wrong.
7 I strongly oppose this. I see absolutely no
8 change between what is being proposed, right down to
9 the name, trying to attract the same clientele. I
10 just strongly oppose this going through again. We've
11 spent so much time. We've taken time off of work,
12 we've taken vacation time for years to make this go
13 away, and now it's getting rammed down our throats
14 again, and it's extremely frustrating.
15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mr. Helsper.
16 Questions by committee of Mr. Helsper? Mr. Arena?
17 MR. ARENA: No.
18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you.
19 MS. HIRTZI: My name is Theresa Hirtzi,
20 H-i-r-t-z-i, and I live at 4157 South 1st Street, and
21 I've lived at this location since 1954, so I went
22 through the Blue Jay thing. No problem. People would
23 go bowling, go home, have a good time.
24 And when this came along, I can't say any
25 more than what my neighbors have said, so if I can't
00043
1 have peace and quiet in my house, doors closed,
2 windows closed, and you hear this boom, boom noise
3 until four or whatever, so we're supposed to go to
4 sleep what, 3:30, 4:00 in the morning when all the
5 people are finally gone? Well, then this is all wrong
6 here. We're entitled to a peaceful and quiet
7 neighborhood, and I can't say much more than that, so
8 I oppose this.
9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mrs. Hirtzi.
10 Questions by committee of Mrs. Hirtzi? Mr. Arena?
11 MR. ARENA: No.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Sir?
13 MR. BREITZMAN: Hi. My name is Gerald
14 Breitzman. I live at 4156 South 1st Street. I think
15 everything was just about covered here, and I strongly
16 oppose it.
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mr. Breitzman,
18 for your brevity on that. I assume that there's no
19 questions by committee on that.
20 Okay. What we're going to do, Mr. Arena, is
21 allow you to provide your closing, and we'll hear from
22 Alderman Witkowski, and then we'll take this matter
23 into committee.
24 MR. ARENA: First off, I'm going to ask my
25 client to make a brief statement because I think that
00044
1 there were some statements attributed to him at the
2 neighborhood meeting which I did not attend, but I'll
3 let him address those comments that are attributed to
4 him. I don't believe he said he'd do whatever it
5 takes.
6 Let's resummarize. My client's 53 years
7 old. He's not looking to run some hip hop joint with
8 young kids. He'd rather not have, you know, music at
9 all, and that's not his intention. His experience
10 comes from country music and line dancing. That's his
11 intention.
12 I am somewhat disturbed by the fact that
13 everything that went on or was perceived to have went
14 on, -- and I'll submit to this committee that a lot of
15 those perceptions were proven to be not true in
16 circuit court. It is a fact that the judge denied the
17 injunction to have the place found to be a nuisance.
18 Denied it.
19 We operated on -- There was a summons and
20 complaint, an attempt to take away the license prior
21 to renewal. This committee did vote to revoke the
22 license, we did go to court, and the circuit court
23 held that the matter had to be reconsidered on legal
24 grounds, and the place continued to operate.
25 I think that is all in the past, and I think
00045
1 that this individual, Mr. Alper, should not be
2 crucified for that. I don't think the location should
3 be crucified for that, and maybe there are people in
4 the neighborhood that would like to have that as an
5 option to go to a Class B tavern such as this. I know
6 there are other options in the area. That was brought
7 up, but maybe it can be a benefit to the neighborhood
8 as well.
9 You have to consider closely the emotions
10 and the attitude of these people. I don't think they
11 would support any type of a Class B establishment. I
12 think their answers to my question in that regard are
13 clear.
14 The notice that was supplied here states
15 that, "A new Class B license at this location would
16 likely result in the same conduct in the future." I
17 really don't know how anybody can say that. I really
18 don't know how, as this individual sits here, he's
19 crucified for the record of somebody in the past, and
20 I just don't think it's right. And what will
21 ultimately happen here is you're going to have a
22 building that will be vacant, and I think it will
23 cause blight on the neighborhood.
24 With that, I'll close my comments, and I'll
25 ask Mr. Alper to direct comments as to what he said at
00046
1 the town meeting which he attended.
2 MR. ALPER: Well, just to clarify a couple
3 things. I never said I'll do anything it takes. They
4 asked me if I would have a certain band, I said yes, I
5 might. As far as the lady who said would you sound-
6 proof, I never said no. The question was never put to
7 me. If soundproofing was necessary, certainly we'll
8 do something. We'll do anything it takes to make it a
9 nice, friendly, social type of a club.
10 They keep calling it a nightclub. They're
11 acting as if we're going to have live music seven
12 nights a week. That is not the case.
13 MR. ARENA: I've concluded. Thank you,
14 Mr. Chairman.
15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by committee for
16 Mr. Alper or Mr. Arena?
17 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Mr. Chair.
18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Dudzik.
19 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: I don't mean to belabor
20 this. Capacity of this place?
21 MR. ALPER: It's 260.
22 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: The parking capacity?
23 MR. ALPER: Well, we have a lot that holds
24 30 cars, and then the rest is street parking.
25 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Thank you.
00047
1 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chair?
2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Davis.
3 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Arena, your client's
4 history is in country music, but yet still on his
5 application he has popular music, and I think that's
6 a -- those are two worlds apart, understanding of
7 music and what attracts what, and what I'm hearing
8 is -- you know, from the neighbors, is that this is
9 the same type of format that they've had at this
10 establishment before, and I'd like your client to
11 explain to me if his experience is in country music,
12 why did he choose the format of popular music in the
13 establishment in which he wants to be granted this
14 license.
15 MR. ARENA: He would have to explain that.
16 I wasn't consulted nor was I retained at the time that
17 that application was submitted, so --
18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Alper, why in terms of
19 your supplemental license did you use popular --
20 MR. ALPER: Okay. My expertise is in
21 country. I had a place that was country. I also had
22 a place that was popular. I changed the format after
23 the meeting thinking that, well, let's try to make
24 this a country place. That's why I resubmitted it and
25 said I'll go country like we did once before. I was
00048
1 successful at that. I'm trying to make it easier for
2 the neighbors.
3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Copeland, was there ever
4 an application that was resubmitted?
5 MR. COPELAND: He's referring to the plan of
6 operation.
7 MR. ARENA: I attached it to my September
8 26th objection to the notice that was hand delivered
9 on September 26th. You're telling me you haven't seen
10 that?
11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No, I haven't.
12 MR. ARENA: But it was submitted.
13 MR. COPELAND: Excuse me. It was the one I
14 gave out to each committee member prior to our hearing.
15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. I didn't see it.
16 Okay. And we'll have Alderman Dudzik move to make
17 this item part of our record. I do see country music,
18 1991, with Rodeo Saloon. Okay. Hearing no objection
19 to that, so ordered. Alderman Witkowski?
20 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: Yes, thank you. I
21 would ask the committee to deny this license. You've
22 heard from the neighbors. They've been long suffering
23 with this matter, they've lost work time, they've lost
24 sleep, physically lost sleep with the noise that this
25 place has produced in the past.
00049
1 I also was at the neighborhood meeting
2 seeing how I was conducting it, and there was a
3 statement made to the effect that if western wouldn't
4 work, he would go to anything that would work. It
5 was similar to that. It may not have exactly been
6 "whatever it takes." I had noted that he'd go to
7 something else that would work. His original business
8 plan did cover all types of music, and at a capacity
9 of 260, obviously the parking and traffic invades the
10 neighborhood.
11 The complaints from the findings of fact
12 from the Council last time included all kinds of
13 assaults on the senses, including lack of sleep,
14 but the noise from outdoor advertising, from
15 entertainment, from fights, from yelling happening at
16 closing time, music played too loudly in cars, music
17 played too loudly in the establishment, causing people
18 to lose sleep. The foul language and obscenities, the
19 car alarms going off, squealing tires, firecrackers
20 being exploded, doors slamming late at night. That's
21 the noise.
22 The smell, there was certainly the smell of
23 stale beer, is one listed in that fact finding, from
24 leaking dumpsters, the smell of urine on people's
25 property, the -- certainly the sights that they put up
00050
1 with, the public urinating, the trash, the fights, the
2 arrests, the drug use that they viewed, the sexual
3 activity going on; this is something that the
4 neighborhood should not have to experience. And once,
5 again, I restate that my recommendation to this
6 committee is to deny this license.
7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Alderman. This
8 item is now in committee. Is there a motion by
9 committee members?
10 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Move to deny based on
11 neighborhood objections.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The motion by Alderman
13 Dudzik is for denial based on neighborhood objections.
14 Is there any discussion on that matter?
15 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chair?
16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Davis.
17 ALDERMAN DAVIS: I would just like to
18 publicly say on the record I appreciate the residents
19 of the city to come out and fight for your
20 neighborhood. It's very important because of the
21 assessments on your homes. The detail in the sheet
22 that I received as far as what you've been assessed in
23 that area, and what you may tend to lose with an
24 establishment in this area, is very critical for
25 anybody who would like to see the city grow.
00051
1 We know with the last 2000 population
2 census, that the city lost population, and I would
3 like to do whatever I can to retain the citizens of
4 the city, so I appreciate you coming out and really
5 taking control of your neighborhoods, not only for you
6 but for your children and for your grandchildren, so
7 I'd like to publicly say that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Certainly I can say no
9 matter what side you are on this issue, one has to
10 truly acknowledge that you are residents who do care.
11 With that, the motion before us is for
12 denial based on neighborhood objections. Is there any
13 objection to that motion? Hearing none, so ordered.
14 Thank you, Alderman Davis. We appreciate your time,
15 sticking around. Mr. Arena, thank you.
16 MR. ARENA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
17 * * *
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
00052
1
2 STATE OF WISCONSIN)
) ss:
3 MILWAUKEE COUNTY )
4
5
6 I, DONNA GULCZYNSKI, of Milwaukee Reporters
7 Associated, Inc., 5120 West Bluemound Road, Milwaukee,
8 Wisconsin, certify that the foregoing transcript,
9 consisting of pages 2 through 51, inclusive, is a
10 full and complete transcript of the proceedings taken
11 in this cause.
12
13
14
15
16
17 Donna Gulczynski - Court Reporter
18
19
20
21 Dated this day of , 2003
22 Milwaukee, Wisconsin