00001
1 CITY OF MILWAUKEE
2 UTILITIES & LICENSES COMMITTEE
3 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
4 In the Matter of:
5 URBAN, John A., Agent for "Le Cabaret, Inc.", request for
the designation as a Center for the Visual and Performing
6 Arts for "Club Paradise" at 813 South 1st Street.
7 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS
9 ALD. JAMES BOHL, JR. - Chairman
10 Ald. Joe Davis, Sr. - Vice Chairman
11 Ald. Joseph A. Dudzik
12 Ald. Terry L. Witkowski
13
14 DEPARTMENT OF NEIGHBORHOOD SERVICES by PANDORA BENDER
15 HEALTH DEPARTMENT by KEVIN HULBERT
16 LICENSE DIVISION by JAMES COPELAND
17 POLICE DEPARTMENT by SERGEANT JOHN HOGAN
18 OFFICE OF THE CITY ATTORNEY by BRUCE SCHRIMPF
19 Proceedings had and testimony given in
the above-entitled matter, before the UTILITIES &
20 LICENSING COMMITTEE OF THE CITY OF MILWAUKEE, on
the 30th day of September, 2003, reported by Donna
21 Gulczynski of Milwaukee Reporters Associated, Inc.
22
23
24
25
00002
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 (NOTE: All City Personnel Were Sworn Under
3 Oath Prior to These Proceedings.)
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The last item for the 12th
5 District this afternoon is for John Urban, agent for
6 Le Cabaret, Inc., request for a designation as a
7 Center for the Visual and Performing Arts for Club
8 Paradise at 813 South 1st Street. Good afternoon,
9 Mr. Whitcomb.
10 MR. WHITCOMB: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman.
11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Again, which one of you
12 gentlemen is Mr. Urban?
13 MR. WHITCOMB: To my right.
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And, sir, you are?
15 MR. SIJAN: Mark Sijan.
16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm sorry, Mark --
17 MR. SIJAN: Mark Sijan, S-i-j-a-n.
18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, Mr. Sijan, do you have
19 an interest in the property here, or --
20 MR. SIJAN: Yes.
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You're here as a --
22 MR. WHITCOMB: Expert witness.
23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- an expert witness.
24 MR. WHITCOMB: As required by the ordinance.
25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. We will ask that you
00003
1 gentlemen please raise your right hands, and we'll
2 swear you in.
3 (Whereupon Mr. Urban and Mr. Sijan were
4 Sworn Under Oath.)
5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And Mr. Urban, I'm going to
6 ask you if you have received notice of today's meeting
7 with the possibility that this application could be
8 denied. There's a lengthy neighborhood objection.
9 The possibility the application could be
10 denied is for the following reasons: Neighborhood
11 objections to appropriateness of the location for a
12 center for the visual and performing arts, -- And
13 please forgive me for trying to read this fast.
14 MR. WHITCOMB: We acknowledge receipt of the
15 notice as dated September 30th -- as dated Tuesday,
16 September 23rd, 2003.
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf, is that
18 appropriate enough here, so I don't need to read the
19 context?
20 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's appropriate. Counsel
21 acknowledges it.
22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay.
23 MR. SCHRIMPF: We may disagree on other
24 things today, but we won't disagree on that.
25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Health Department?
00004
1 MR. HULBERT: No objection.
2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Neighborhood Services?
3 MS. BENDER: No objection.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And we have no police
5 reports.
6 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman, I would ask one
7 question, though.
8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead. Start us off.
9 MR. SCHRIMPF: The ordinance that governs
10 this became effective on September 26th, 2003, and
11 requires an application, and my question is --
12 MR. COPELAND: There is no application.
13 There was the original letter from Mr. Whitcomb
14 regarding his client's request.
15 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, sub four of the
16 ordinance requires a formal application, and frankly,
17 it follows pretty much the track of Chapter 90 when it
18 comes to other types of applications, and it may be
19 appropriate to have such a document executed by the
20 applicant so that this matter can come before the
21 committee in an intelligent kind of fashion.
22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You're indicating that that
23 is required by the ordinance?
24 MR. SCHRIMPF: Oh, yeah, an application is
25 required.
00005
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Whitcomb, is there such
2 an application here before us?
3 MR. WHITCOMB: I'm not aware that such an
4 application even exists, but we filed our request
5 before this committee, as other licensees have in
6 the past, over the last five to seven years by letter
7 form.
8 We did have a hearing on June 10th, 2003.
9 It's held in committee. I do believe that this matter
10 is properly before the committee. The committee's
11 quite familiar with the applicant. Its application
12 has been on record, if its the same standard
13 application, for the last seven years. All the data
14 contained therein is up-to-date, and the licenses,
15 other than this license, have been renewed
16 automatically for years. I don't see any reason why
17 we need to belabor these proceedings any further.
18 MR. SCHRIMPF: No, this is a new application
19 for a center for the visual and performing arts. This
20 isn't a renewal. I mean they may have -- I fully
21 agree they may have had a Class B, and that may have
22 been renewed, but this is a new application for the
23 center for the visual and performing arts.
24 MR. WHITCOMB: Mr. Copeland, does there
25 exist an application for the center?
00006
1 MR. COPELAND: No, and as I'll repeat again,
2 there was only a letter from you at your client's
3 request. The ordinance, according to Mr. Schrimpf,
4 now requires an application. We do not have one on
5 file.
6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Copeland, does such --
7 Is there -- Does such an application exist for an
8 individual who can come forward and apply, and they
9 have a specific designation or form for such a
10 designation?
11 MR. COPELAND: Yes, it does.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay.
13 MR. WHITCOMB: What is that form?
14 MR. COPELAND: I don't have the number on it
15 with me right now, Mr. Whitcomb. It's down in our
16 office. I could get you one if you wanted, but,
17 again, this ordinance also requires, if I'm not
18 mistaken, a police background check.
19 MR. WHITCOMB: Is this similar to the
20 application and the background check conducted on
21 regular license applications?
22 MR. COPELAND: Yes, it is.
23 MR. WHITCOMB: Is there a need to duplicate
24 what has already been done in this instance, given
25 that this application has been --
00007
1 MR. COPELAND: It has been the policy of the
2 License Division --
3 MR. WHITCOMB: I was asking the chairman.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Whitcomb, this is news
5 to me right now as well, too, in terms of the
6 application. I'm certainly aware of the legislation
7 and the intent of the legislation. I was not privy to
8 the fact that there was only an existing letter and
9 not anything else, nor was I privy to, up until this
10 point, that there was not -- that there may be a
11 police record that has not been provided for.
12 I don't know if Mr. Urban -- You're telling
13 me Mr. Urban is the existing agent of Le Cabaret,
14 Incorporated at this location?
15 MR. WHITCOMB: Yes, and has been for seven
16 years.
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't know -- Is there an
18 existing police record that exists for this location
19 or for Mr. Urban, I don't know.
20 MR. COPELAND: Regarding this renewal, when
21 he filed a renewal, he went through the process and a
22 police background check, and that is attached to his
23 present renewal for his Class B tavern and cabaret.
24 MR. WHITCOMB: That was renewed in July,
25 though, right.
00008
1 ALDERMAN SANCHEZ: Mr. Chair, maybe I can
2 shed some light on this.
3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead, Alderman Sanchez.
4 ALDERMAN SANCHEZ: It seems to me, at least
5 the last few months, the last three or four months,
6 Mr. Whitcomb and the agent have been before this
7 committee. This committee has approved the renewal of
8 the Class B, essentially.
9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: It probably would be a Class
10 B and cabaret, I assume.
11 ALDERMAN SANCHEZ: We all agree on that.
12 And they were also at the time, based on my memory,
13 here where we took this very issue up. It just so
14 happened that that coincided with this new ordinance
15 that just took place in -- what was it, --
16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The past -- the last cycle.
17 ALDERMAN SANCHEZ: The last cycle, which
18 means the last 30 days. Now, let me -- let me just
19 go on. At that time this whole issue of the 12
20 hundred square feet inside of an establishment I'm
21 pretty sure didn't exist until this came into effect,
22 but they have already been here before you, and the
23 interesting thing here is that because this -- if you
24 will, this new ordinance is so new, you know, I would
25 say that, you know, some type of application form
00009
1 should have been put together.
2 Now, I will also say that if that form
3 also exists, knowingly in this case, being that
4 Mr. Whitcomb and his client have been here for the
5 last few months, they should have forwarded that to
6 Mr. Whitcomb's office if there's anything special
7 about the form.
8 I'd also say that if there's a form here,
9 that the form should be produced and see if there's
10 anything different from the paperwork that's already
11 been done, if you will give it to this committee.
12 I came and testified before the committee.
13 I talked to the neighbors, and if you remember what I
14 said back then, it was very simple. Back then when
15 this place opened up about seven or eight years ago,
16 there was some concerns. The fact of the matter is
17 that none of the neighbors that I've talked to, and
18 they're very well organized in my area, had any
19 objections with this establishment at all. And today,
20 you know, today we have -- You know, what are we doing
21 today? I mean they're on the 1:45 agenda. Three
22 hours later now we're talking about some form that
23 either does or does not exist.
24 MR. WHITCOMB: Why was my client in my
25 office given a notice for a hearing today when it is
00010
1 now the position of the city, apparently, that we're
2 not properly before this committee?
3 MR. COPELAND: I'll answer that if I may,
4 Mr. Chairman.
5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: One second. Mr. Whitcomb,
6 you have every right to be angry, and inasmuch as I
7 would prefer not to be here at 4:30 in this committee
8 room as well, too, let alone potentially hearing this
9 on some other occasion. Now, I can tell you a couple
10 things that I'm aware of of the legislation. I
11 believe, and unless I'm incorrect, the legislation
12 does require a plan of operation.
13 MR. WHITCOMB: That's right.
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Now, unless -- And I don't
15 know if any one has been submitted, either.
16 MR. WHITCOMB: It has.
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Does this -- The legislation
18 has gone through multiple drafts, so there were
19 amendments or changes to that. I think that you're
20 probably aware of those now. Why you'd receive notice
21 today without receiving information, something's
22 wrong. I mean there's an error on that. I fully
23 acknowledge that.
24 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman, --
25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: One second, Mr. Schrimpf.
00011
1 The one question that I want to ask here at this point
2 is does the fact that they applied prior to the
3 enactment of the legislation grandfather them from the
4 requirements thereof?
5 MR. SCHRIMPF: No, because the legislation
6 is --
7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Prior to an action taken --
8 MR. SCHRIMPF: No. The legislation is
9 prospective because it deals with procedure, and it's
10 the procedure of this matter which, on and after
11 September 26th, the date that the mayor signed this or
12 at the time the mayor signed this, requires that a
13 certain procedure be followed. That procedure
14 includes an application. The application has to
15 include what plans, if any, the applicant has to
16 ensure underage persons are not served alcohol, what
17 plans if any the applicant has to ensure that underage
18 persons are not on the premises in violation of the
19 curfew, off-street parking spaces available, whether
20 or not the premises will make use of sound
21 amplification equipment and what kind, security,
22 orderly appearance and operation of the premises,
23 other licenses that the applicant has that's attached
24 to the premises, and other information that the
25 committee may require.
00012
1 Even if the letter that counsel is referring
2 to is an application of sorts that covers the other
3 information that would normally be given, I kind of
4 doubt that this information -- and I haven't seen the
5 letter, but I kind of doubt frankly that that
6 information is in it.
7 MR. WHITCOMB: When did the mayor sign the
8 ordinance?
9 MR. SCHRIMPF: On September 26th.
10 MR. WHITCOMB: And does it not take effect
11 not until 10 days after publication after it's
12 executed?
13 MR. SCHRIMPF: No, it takes effect when it
14 says so, and it says effective September 27th.
15 MR. WHITCOMB: It has to be published in
16 order to take effect, does it not?
17 MR. SCHRIMPF: This was published on
18 September 26th.
19 ALDERMAN SANCHEZ: Mr. Chair?
20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: One second, Alderman
21 Sanchez.
22 MR. WHITCOMB: If it was signed by the mayor
23 on September 26th, it could not possibly have been
24 published on September 26th, and if it was,
25 publication must run for 10 days before the law takes
00013
1 effect. If that's the case, the law is not in effect
2 today.
3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, you may know that
4 better than I, and Mr. Schrimpf, I'll ask for your
5 clarification on that matter.
6 MR. SCHRIMPF: I'm dealing with a certified
7 copy of it, and it says effective September 27th,
8 2003. That's the day after publication.
9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The day after publication is
10 what we're being told, so it does apply. This is
11 cited for neighborhood objections. Is there anyone
12 here who is testifying in opposition to this license?
13 And I would need a show of hands. I don't see anyone
14 here.
15 Mr. Whitcomb, what I'm going to tell you is
16 apologies in due deference because the legislation
17 took a considerable amount of time, it went through a
18 recess. Your client has been waiting for a
19 substantial period of time. You deserve to have had a
20 hearing here today, but unless the committee has
21 everything before it from which to rule, I think that
22 it is incomplete in terms of what we're going to hear.
23 The one thing I'm going to say, or that I'm
24 willing to do here at this time, Mr. Whitcomb, is if
25 you have an expert that wants to testify to some
00014
1 faction here, and I assume he may be an art expert who
2 may be here to testify about art or whatever that may
3 be, that if you want to proceed with his testimony,
4 I'd be more than willing to take that right now. We
5 will then hold this item. We will have to hear it
6 three weeks from now. You'll have the proper
7 notification, and if you want to talk to him for a
8 second, that's fine.
9 ALDERMAN SANCHEZ: Mr. Chair?
10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead, Alderman Sanchez.
11 MR. WHITCOMB: Could anyone give me a
12 reasonable estimation as to when this application will
13 be processed so that this matter could be scheduled
14 before this committee?
15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Copeland, if they were
16 to get this back to you here sometime this week, can
17 we assure Mr. Whitcomb that it will be on the next
18 cycle?
19 MR. COPELAND: If he can get it to me
20 tomorrow, I can put it in the computer, and it will
21 kick out to the sergeant, he can run his background
22 check and get it back to us, and we'll be ready.
23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: For the next cycle.
24 MR. COPELAND: Yeah, next cycle.
25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The next U & L is October
00015
1 21st, Tuesday the 21st.
2 MR. WHITCOMB: Well, I'll have to take his
3 testimony today.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, that's fine. I don't
5 have objections proceeding that way here. There are
6 no neighborhood objections or objectors here.
7 Sir, if you could provide your -- Did you
8 get a copy of the application here?
9 MR. WHITCOMB: I did. Thank you.
10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Again, my apologies on this.
11 I think that you deserve a timely basis and --
12 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chairman.
13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Davis.
14 ALDERMAN DAVIS: I have a question for
15 Mr. Copeland. Mr. Copeland, is this department
16 notification that's being sent out from the City of
17 Milwaukee Office of the City Clerk with your signature
18 on the bottom?
19 MR. COPELAND: Yes.
20 ALDERMAN DAVIS: And it clearly says in
21 Paragraph D, the second to the last paragraph it says,
22 "You may examine the application filed at this office
23 during regular business hours prior to the hearing."
24 MR. COPELAND: Excuse me, Alderman Davis.
25 This is the first letter. I'm sorry, I apologize for
00016
1 that. But when you look at what was sent to the
2 applicant about the objection, it's merged into a
3 form, and the form has that statement on it.
4 ALDERMAN DAVIS: And this notice that we're
5 looking at right now, what is this notice that's
6 included in our committee pack? Is this a notice
7 basically for committee members, or is this sent --
8 MR. COPELAND: Yes.
9 ALDERMAN DAVIS: -- out to the applicant?
10 MR. COPELAND: The top page is the notice
11 sent to the applicant, the second and third page down
12 is the notice of hearing sent to the applicant. Are
13 you following me?
14 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Yeah. I'm more concerned
15 about the signature page.
16 MR. COPELAND: That goes with the first
17 page.
18 ALDERMAN DAVIS: And that's what I was
19 reading.
20 MR. COPELAND: The first page starts out
21 with Tuesday, September 23rd, 2003. It says committee
22 meeting notice to Mr. Urban with his address. It
23 says, "You are requested to attend the hearing."
24 That's the first page. Normally most of our notices
25 are one page, but because of the wording in here, --
00017
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The length of the objection.
2 This is a notice that is sent to the applicant, --
3 MR. COPELAND: Yes.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- notifying him that today
5 at this date and time is the meeting.
6 MR. COPELAND: And advises him what the
7 objections are, so when he shows up to the hearing,
8 he's fully aware of what the discussion will be.
9 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Does your signature appear
10 on that notice that's being sent out to the applicant,
11 the second page?
12 MR. COPELAND: Yes.
13 ALDERMAN DAVIS: And the reason why I raise
14 that question is because of Mr. Schrimpf, and I'm
15 trying to understand this process.
16 Mr. Schrimpf, the second to the last
17 paragraph states that any applicant, when this notice
18 is sent out, prior to them appearing before this
19 hearing, has an opportunity to see the application.
20 MR. SCHRIMPF: Uh-hmm.
21 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Is that correct?
22 MR. SCHRIMPF: Yup.
23 ALDERMAN DAVIS: So I would strongly
24 encourage anybody who has something before this
25 committee, and is appearing before this committee,
00018
1 take a look at your application before, because it's
2 not the city's responsibility to send out additional
3 applications. We give you an opportunity and notice
4 you to say that you should review the application
5 before you appear before the committee. I just wanted
6 to make that clarification, and -- I mean am I in the
7 right ballpark, Mr. Schrimpf?
8 MR. SCHRIMPF: Certainly. The language that
9 you're referring to, I think, however, is not directed
10 so much at the applicants who probably would have a
11 copy of their application, but is directed at members
12 of the public because it's an open record, and this is
13 an open meeting, and the individuals who might be
14 effected from the public are entitled to see those
15 documents.
16 The part of the problem that we have with
17 this particular situation, I suspect, is that we had a
18 pending application and the ordinance changed, and we
19 sort of have to kind of get caught up with everything,
20 so that's what's going on.
21 ALDERMAN SANCHEZ: Mr. Chair.
22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead, Alderman.
23 ALDERMAN SANCHEZ: Let me see if we can
24 maybe just simplify this a little bit. You know,
25 interestingly enough earlier today we had a situation
00019
1 with Mr. Sendejo and him waiting essentially until the
2 last moment to reapply for his license. In that case
3 what it did is it created a situation in which I
4 wasn't able to get ahold of my constituents and X, Y,
5 and Z.
6 The fact of the matter is, the last time
7 that we heard this issue was June. You have the same
8 agent, nothing's changed. I think that the police
9 department who does background investigations has had
10 their time. It's not, you know, whether it is or it's
11 not. When I receive this packet of information, I am
12 assuming the job is complete, and the job is complete.
13 And to have a document like this one here that has --
14 is not even a month old, -- the fact of the matter is
15 it's not even a month old, this is a brand-new
16 document, I would say that because it's new, because
17 the ordinance has changed, let's hold this item for a
18 half hour while you deal with this other one and have
19 Mr. Whitcomb fill this out. He can hand write it.
20 I'm in full support, the neighborhood has no
21 objections with this, and let's just take this up in a
22 half hour, 45 minutes, and be done with it. The
23 parking's not going to change. Remember, he's been
24 here. He was here in June. I mean Summerfest hadn't
25 even started yet. And I mean to go through with this
00020
1 bureaucratic movement here, to put a delay, -- I mean
2 he's played by all the rules. I think it's the fair
3 thing to do, and I'm in support by the way.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman, the only thing
5 that I will say with regard to that is even assuming
6 this application comes forward, I don't know if the
7 past application -- or this application is required to
8 meet a statutory 14-day notice, as what's already come
9 forward and considered adequate for that notice, first
10 off. That would be the first question.
11 The second question that I would ask is
12 whether or not we have the complete police report.
13 SERGEANT HOGAN: You do.
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We do have it.
15 SERGEANT HOGAN: You do.
16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: There is not one or --
17 SERGEANT HOGAN: There are no reported
18 incidents on this location. To this day there are
19 still no reported incidents.
20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. So there is no police
21 report.
22 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman, let me just
23 check that 14-day thing.
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf, the only thing
25 that I'm asking is if what has been provided by them
00021
1 is suitable or not at this point.
2 MR. WHITCOMB: I can complete this inside of
3 15 minutes with the licensee, and the data we've
4 already presented to the committee by way of oral
5 statements at the last hearing.
6 ALDERMAN SANCHEZ: Mr. Chair, again, the
7 purpose -- My office works very hard to allow the
8 people in those given areas --
9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman, excuse me. The
10 one thing I can let you know is that -- I have no
11 objection to doing that. The one thing I do have to
12 let you know is this. I've got a previously scheduled
13 neighborhood meeting at 6:30 p.m. I need to be out of
14 here. And the one problem that I have with that is
15 the application was withdrawn today, and I've got to
16 go to 3401 North 76th Street, because this afternoon
17 the person who was originally going to be appearing
18 before BOZA is not going to be there, and I'm going to
19 have neighbors who are going to show up and wonder
20 what's going on when they start pounding on the door
21 and then walk away.
22 If we can hear this within that time, and I
23 can get out of here by 6:00, assuming it moves on
24 here, I'm more than favorable in doing that. I don't
25 have objections to that. What I'm going to say right
00022
1 now is I want to hear this gentleman's testimony.
2 We're going to hold this right now. If Mr. Whitcomb
3 wants to fill this out, and we move through this in an
4 adequate time, I have no objection in taking them
5 forward and just taking this matter up, okay? First
6 off, sir, your name your and address for the record.
7 MR. SIJAN: Mark Sijan, S-i-j-a-n, 2601
8 South Delaware Avenue.
9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, Mr. Sijan, your
10 testimony?
11 MR. WHITCOMB: Sir, what is your occupation?
12 MR. SIJAN: I'm an artist.
13 MR. WHITCOMB: What kind of artist?
14 MR. SIJAN: Fine artist, good artist.
15 MR. WHITCOMB: And you produce artworks?
16 MR. SIJAN: Uh-hmm.
17 MR. WHITCOMB: What artworks do you produce,
18 sir?
19 MR. SIJAN: Sculptures and paintings.
20 MR. WHITCOMB: And what medium in painting?
21 MR. SIJAN: Acrylic on canvas.
22 MR. WHITCOMB: And how long have you been so
23 engaged?
24 MR. SIJAN: I did my graduate work in 1970
25 at UWM, and ever since then.
00023
1 MR. WHITCOMB: And that is your source of
2 livelihood?
3 MR. SIJAN: Uh-hmm, full time.
4 MR. WHITCOMB: Yes?
5 MR. SIJAN: Yes.
6 MR. WHITCOMB: And do any of your works --
7 Are any of your works on display in the City of
8 Milwaukee?
9 MR. SIJAN: I have a piece at Midwest
10 Express Center, the security guard in the front
11 entryway, which is my dad, and Senator Kohl has a
12 piece at the Cousin Center, which is a life-sized
13 figurative sculpture. It's a security guard in the
14 lobby as well.
15 MR. WHITCOMB: Do you have any pieces of
16 your work on display nationally?
17 MR. SIJAN: I've had over 40 one-man museum
18 exhibitions in North America, all one-man shows, all
19 with figurative sculptures.
20 MR. WHITCOMB: And how long have you been
21 engaged in being an artist as you've described?
22 MR. SIJAN: Well, I might count under-
23 graduate work, so it's been about 33 years.
24 MR. WHITCOMB: And do you consider yourself
25 to be recognized as an art expert?
00024
1 MR. SIJAN: Yes.
2 MR. WHITCOMB: And do you have your work
3 displayed at the location 813 South 1st Street?
4 MR. SIJAN: Yes.
5 MR. WHITCOMB: How many pieces of your work
6 are on display at that location?
7 MR. SIJAN: There are a number of pieces.
8 Three, four, five maybe.
9 MR. WHITCOMB: And how long have you had
10 work on display at 813 South 1st Street?
11 MR. SIJAN: Well, the pieces were made over
12 five years ago, so I'm not sure. It's been a long
13 time, I think.
14 MR. WHITCOMB: And have you been at that
15 location recently?
16 MR. SIJAN: Yes, I have.
17 MR. WHITCOMB: And when was the last time
18 you were there?
19 MR. SIJAN: Today.
20 MR. WHITCOMB: And were your works on
21 display at that location?
22 MR. SIJAN: Yes, they were.
23 MR. WHITCOMB: Did you see other works of
24 art on display at that location?
25 MR. SIJAN: I was mesmerized by my own
00025
1 pieces. I can't remember. I guess there were other
2 works of art, yes.
3 MR. WHITCOMB: No further questions.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Mr. Schrimpf, do we
5 have an answer in terms of whether an existing
6 application -- Is this the application, or is this a
7 new application because it is post ordinance change?
8 I mean that --
9 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, that latter question
10 I'm not prepared to answer right now. The 14-day
11 matter I can go through.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Their initial application
13 does go back here a couple months.
14 MR. SCHRIMPF: Yeah, I understand that.
15 90-5-3 references liquor and beer licenses. This is a
16 license for a center for the visual and performing
17 arts. The 14 days would not apply.
18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Mr. Sijan, --
19 Question for Mr. Schrimpf or Mr. Copeland regarding
20 the ordinance change. The ordinance change stipulates
21 that among the requirements for this designation would
22 have to be either a 12 hundred square foot stage or
23 recognized works of art.
24 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's correct.
25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If I recall correctly, it
00026
1 does set up -- and I can be corrected. Does it set up
2 a requirement for which -- or by which the works of
3 art would be deemed recognized works of art? Is there
4 an art board or some other mechanism?
5 MR. SCHRIMPF: It says "before the licensing
6 committee by recognized experts or art critics." The
7 witness testified that he is -- or describes himself
8 as an art expert.
9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Questions by
10 committee for Mr. Sijan? Questions by committee?
11 Okay. Mr. Whitcomb, we're going to hold this right
12 now to the call of the chair. You can go out, and you
13 can fill that out, and assuming we can rectify this
14 matter, --
15 MR. SIJAN: Can I be excused?
16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mr. Sijan. We're
17 going to take up the item in the 13th District --
18 ALDERMAN SANCHEZ: May I be excused,
19 Mr. Chair? I mean unless you want me to stick around.
20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Do you need to use the hall
21 pass to go to the bathroom again?
22 ALDERMAN SANCHEZ: I'd like to talk with my
23 daughter a little bit.
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. With that, Alderman
25 Davis will move to hold to the call of the chair.
00027
1 Hearing no objection, so ordered.
2 (Whereupon proceedings were temporarily
3 adjourned.)
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: This is a resumption of the
5 Utilities and Licenses Committee. Just so you're
6 aware, we've got a quorum of three at this point.
7 It's now approximately 5:50 in the evening, for those
8 of our constituents who say we're always home by 3:00
9 or whatever.
10 MR. SCHRIMPF: And you're on the 2:30
11 agenda.
12 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: No, 1:45 agenda.
13 MR. SCHRIMPF: Oh, I'm sorry, 1:45.
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. We do have an
15 application filled out. Because we don't have copies,
16 I'm going to try to go over the pertinent parts, and
17 Mr. Whitcomb, if you think I'm not saying something
18 correctly here, you can correct me.
19 In terms of the application, the legislation
20 or the ordinance requests at least one stage larger
21 than 12 hundred square feet or a collection of
22 recognized works of art. You have indicated you have
23 both, or at least had a witness -- one gentleman who
24 is at least self-described as an expert and indicates
25 that his works of art are at the location.
00028
1 The hours of operation for underage, at
2 least as indicated, are Thursday and Friday. We
3 should say underage meaning under legal age of
4 drinking and not underage in terms of minors.
5 MR. WHITCOMB: The terms of operation with
6 the designation --
7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Oh, we are holding this
8 right now. Alderman Witkowski would move to
9 reconsider this item. Hearing no objection, so
10 ordered. Thank you for your due diligence, Madam
11 clerk. Thursday, Friday, Saturday -- Thursday,
12 Friday, 11:30 a.m. to 2 a.m. Saturday, 7 p.m. to
13 2:30 a.m.
14 MR. WHITCOMB: Correct, bar closing time
15 both nights.
16 MR. COPELAND: Excuse me. You said 11:30
17 a.m. to 2 a.m.?
18 MR. SCHRIMPF: You're bound by the curfew on
19 that, Mr. Chairman.
20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And he will rectify that,
21 and what he indicated is that it would not have
22 individuals under the age of 18, so it would not be
23 applicable.
24 MR. SCHRIMPF: All right.
25 MR. COPELAND: Excuse me, Mr. Chair.
00029
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Copeland, go ahead.
2 MR. COPELAND: I thought you said 11:30 a.m.
3 to 2 a.m.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yeah, that's what it
5 indicates here, 11:30 a.m. to 2 a.m. That would be
6 just before lunch hour --
7 MR. WHITCOMB: Right before lunch until the
8 following -- you know, bar time.
9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. The legal occupancy
10 limit, 250. The plan to ensure -- Do you want to just
11 summarize, or do you want me to read here?
12 MR. WHITCOMB: Read the question, and then
13 I'll --
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. State your plans to
15 ensure underage patrons are not served alcoholic
16 beverages.
17 MR. WHITCOMB: I'd write patrons, those
18 under the age of 21 -- or those over the age of 21
19 would be given wristbands. Those wristbands, once
20 removed, cannot be replaced. There will probably be
21 25 to 30 different colored wristbands so people can't
22 collect them, and only those with wristbands will be
23 served alcoholic beverages. Anyone without a wrist-
24 band will not be served anything of -- by any adult
25 that are alcoholic beverages.
00030
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. The plans to ensure
2 that underage patrons will not drink alcohol while on
3 the premises.
4 MR. WHITCOMB: Only -- Those without wrist-
5 bands will be served beverages in containers that will
6 only contain non-alcoholic beverage. They'll be
7 different from containers for adult beverages, so that
8 anyone holding an adult beverage cup that doesn't have
9 a wristband will be escorted out of the premises.
10 There will be two security guards at the
11 door, there will be eight inside. If any patrons are
12 seen exchanging the non -- or the over-21-cup with an
13 underage-21-cup, they'll be asked to leave. If any
14 patrons are seen pouring drink from one cup to
15 another, they'll be asked to leave.
16 This is the procedure that has been used in
17 other licensed establishments with the designation,
18 and it's been quite successful in monitoring and
19 keeping control of the proper sale of alcoholic
20 beverages.
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. The stair system's
22 not going to change from what it currently is. Plans
23 for security at the premises; two guards at the door,
24 eight security guards inside. Plans to ensure early
25 appearance; I assume you're going to argue that there
00031
1 isn't -- there is one already.
2 MR. WHITCOMB: Good. I mean --
3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay.
4 MR. WHITCOMB: As regards to the litter,
5 they police the area on a regular basis. As regards
6 noise, it's an isolated and well-insulated building.
7 The music that's played inside is not so loud that you
8 cannot have a conversation inside.
9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. All right. I think
10 that that's basically the pertinent items on the
11 application as far as I read it. I'll give it to
12 Mr. Schrimpf, and if not, he'll give it the one-over.
13 Mr. Whitcomb, in terms of the license
14 itself, and this again will be open to Mr. Copeland,
15 does the ordinance require -- does it require or just
16 request that there be a separate lobby area where the
17 alcohol is served.
18 MR. SCHRIMPF: That applies to centers for
19 the performing arts, Mr. Chairman.
20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Isn't that what they're
21 applying for?
22 MR. COPELAND: Yes.
23 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, visual or performing
24 arts.
25 MR. COPELAND: But in there it has a
00032
1 statement as to service in the lobby area.
2 MR. SCHRIMPF: Correct.
3 MR. COPELAND: Which it doesn't distinguish
4 between a center for visual arts or performing arts.
5 It applies to either type of establishment.
6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Whitcomb, what --
7 Frankly, that maybe ought to be a question that you
8 have in the future on that form as to -- if that is
9 the ordinance, how that will be mandated, but I'm
10 going to ask you, --
11 MR. WHITCOMB: My understanding of the
12 ordinance is that for customary seated theaters where
13 there's actual seats, and there's a stage in front
14 where there's a sit-down type of performing art center
15 as opposed to one where people can stand or circulate,
16 that if it's for the performing arts, the alcohol will
17 be served in an area other than on the floor of the
18 audience, but for the visual arts, or in that instance
19 where there -- the alcohol would be -- could be served
20 in the licensed area.
21 In other words, at the Milwaukee Art Center
22 you can walk around, or the Calatrava Museum, when
23 they serve wine, you can walk through the area
24 drinking wine, and you would not be restricted only to
25 the lobby area of either of those establishments.
00033
1 My interpretation of it is -- for example,
2 at the Riverside, the establishment cannot have beer
3 vendors walking up and down the aisles serving drinks;
4 that the drinks would be served, you know, outside of
5 the seated theater area. That's my understanding.
6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Well, why don't we get an
7 opinion on that because --
8 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, sub C, Mr. Chairman,
9 says that, "At a center for the visual and performing
10 arts that is also a theater, the service of alcohol
11 beverages shall be incidental to the main function of
12 the licensed premises as evidenced by the service of
13 alcohol beverages no earlier than two hours before a
14 given day's scheduled performance, no later than two
15 hours after a given day's scheduled performance, and
16 only in a designated lobby area."
17 MR. WHITCOMB: And we're not a theater.
18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Does it say -- Say that
19 again.
20 MR. SCHRIMPF: "At a center for the visual
21 and performing arts that is also a theater."
22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. That stipulates only
23 if it is a theater then.
24 MR. SCHRIMPF: Right.
25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Mr. Whitcomb, is
00034
1 there anything else you would like to add in terms of
2 the intentions here?
3 MR. WHITCOMB: No, Mr. Chairman. This
4 establishment has been in the neighborhood for seven
5 years. There hasn't been any problems whatsoever. I
6 don't perceive any to occur in the future. It's run
7 by professionals, people experienced, and there isn't
8 any objections from the neighbors, nor is there any
9 objection from the local alderman.
10 I do believe that we've complied with the
11 requirements of the ordinance, and we certainly meet
12 the objectives and the intent of the ordinance in this
13 regard.
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Whitcomb, the question
15 that I'm going to ask you relates to the wristbands.
16 I imagine that you're going to say that there is a
17 good chance that at some point or another there will
18 be somebody who will attempt to abuse the alcoholic
19 privilege system. I know that you can't state
20 specific circumstances unless we cross them.
21 The issue is -- is showing up at a club, and
22 you have a wristband that allows you to drink. You're
23 drinking and nursing a beer, that's one thing. What
24 type of recourse will you take to ensure that
25 somebody, say, who isn't legal -- happens to be with a
00035
1 group of individuals who may be both of legal drinking
2 age and those who are not, wouldn't buy three or four
3 shots and circulate them amongst the group. What type
4 of response are you prepared to take to prevent this
5 from happening.
6 MR. WHITCOMB: Well, I think for this
7 establishment, because it does not have a tremendous
8 capacity, -- it isn't Miller Park where you can have
9 the same risks, you know, an adult buying an underage,
10 a 20-year-old, a beer. Now, with the security
11 personnel inside, the patrons will know that they're
12 under close observation, and they will not run the
13 risk of being evicted, if you will.
14 The wristband system has worked quite
15 effectively and basically without error at the Eagle's
16 Club where they have populations of anywhere from 15
17 hundred to 3,000, where those with wristbands, the
18 adults, buy beverages, and those without wristbands
19 under the age of 21 do not, and there hasn't been any
20 enforcement problems or really compliance problems.
21 It's my impression that those who are under
22 21 are appreciative of the ability to be in an adult
23 enterprise, and they will not risk, you know, having a
24 beverage or two to lose that privilege of being there.
25 It just really has not been a problem at those
00036
1 establishments that now have the designation of
2 center for the performing arts, where you have a mixed
3 crowd of those over 21 and those between the ages of
4 18 and 21. It just hasn't been a problem. And I
5 think that the problem will be even less at this
6 establishment because the size is so small comparative
7 to the larger establishments.
8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Questions by
9 committee?
10 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: Mr. Chairman?
11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Witkowski.
12 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: Just because I missed
13 the first hearing because I wasn't elected yet, I
14 assume that we're talking about -- I shouldn't assume.
15 Let me ask. As a center for the visual and performing
16 arts, as I read the definition, what's the performing
17 arts that will go on inside the establishment.
18 MR. WHITCOMB: Dancing, exotic dancing.
19 ALDERMAN WITKOWSKI: Okay.
20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Any other questions?
21 Mr. Schrimpf?
22 MR. SCHRIMPF: Yes.
23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: In terms of what is before
24 us here, -- I guess I have no other question.
25 MR. WHITCOMB: I neglected to make one
00037
1 statement which I was directed by my client to make,
2 and that is at the last hearing we had on June 10th,
3 it was the suggestion of the committee that to avoid a
4 legal entanglement as to whether or not state law,
5 city law applies, the city law -- or the state law
6 trumps, or whether the city law can regulate, and that
7 question subsequently was answered by Mr. Schrimpf of
8 the City Attorney's Office, it was suggested that the
9 appropriate stage be built to comply with the terms of
10 the ordinance, which my client did at great expense,
11 as opposed to becoming embroiled with Mr. Schrimpf as
12 to the legal niceties of the --
13 MR. SCHRIMPF: What the heck, Mike, we've
14 done that before.
15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Is there a motion by
16 committee members?
17 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Move approval.
18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The motion by --
19 ALDERMAN DUDZIK: Nobody else will do it, so
20 I'll do it.
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The motion by Alderman
22 Dudzik is for approval of the application. Is there
23 any objection other than my own? Hearing none, so
24 ordered.
25 I will just say for the record, and I think
00038
1 you probably know this, I have some grave concerns
2 that any establishment, notwithstanding how much they
3 try, that there will certainly be some abuses. I
4 don't mean to suggest that you won't try and that a
5 majority of that wouldn't be curtailed or kept.
6 I think that it just becomes much more
7 difficult in a darkened circumstance as you would find
8 such as in a gentleman's club as opposed to in the
9 open light of the Pabst Theater, say, notwithstanding
10 that if this moves forward, we would hope that we
11 don't have any trouble.
12 MR. WHITCOMB: The security at Pabst Theater
13 may be more of the rent-a-cop variety. The security
14 at this establishment is more of a secret service type
15 of variety, so I don't think there will be any --
16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So you're going to feed the
17 security just to keep them undercover and make certain
18 that they're not conspicuous, huh?
19 MR. COPELAND: Excuse me. Before you leave,
20 in this ordinance 81-17.7, which is the fee schedule,
21 it states that the fee for this license shall be $225,
22 and that it will expire along with your tavern-
23 related.
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: So it will coincide with the
25 current tavern cabaret.
00039
1 MR. COPELAND: Right.
2 MR. WHITCOMB: Prorated?
3 MR. COPELAND: No, not prorated.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Now that we have that set,
5 thank you.
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00040
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2 STATE OF WISCONSIN)
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3 MILWAUKEE COUNTY )
4
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6 I, DONNA GULCZYNSKI, of Milwaukee Reporters
7 Associated, Inc., 5120 West Bluemound Road, Milwaukee,
8 Wisconsin, certify that the foregoing transcript,
9 consisting of pages 2 through 39 inclusive, is a
10 full and complete transcript of the proceedings taken
11 in this cause.
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17 Donna Gulczynski - Court Reporter
18
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21 Dated this day of , 2003
22 Milwaukee, Wisconsin
23