00001
1 CITY OF MILWAUKEE
2 UTILITIES & LICENSES COMMITTEE
3 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
4 In the Matter of:
5 MC PIKE, Eloise E., Agent for "Charles D Productions,
Inc.", Tavern Amusement (Cabaret/Nite Club) application
6 for "Focused" at 3500 West Park Hill Avenue.
7 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS
9 ALD. JAMES BOHL, JR. - Chairman
10 Ald. Joe Davis, Sr. - Vice Chair
11 Ald. Paul Henningsen
12
13 DEPARTMENT OF NEIGHBORHOOD SERVICES by KAREN JACOBS
14 HEALTH DEPARTMENT by KEVIN HULBERT
15 LICENSING DIVISION by JAMES COPELAND
16 POLICE DEPARTMENT by SERGEANT JOHN HOGAN
17 OFFICE OF THE CITY ATTORNEY by BRUCE SCHRIMPF
18 KARMA RODGERS ON BEHALF OF THE APPLICANT
19 Proceedings had and testimony given in
the above-entitled matter, before the UTILITIES &
20 LICENSING COMMITTEE OF THE CITY OF MILWAUKEE, on
the 19th day of May, 2003, reported by Donna
21 Gulczynski of Milwaukee Reporters Associated, Inc.
22
23
24
25
00002
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 (NOTE: All City Personnel Were Sworn Under
3 Oath Prior to These Proceedings.)
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We're now going to move
5 forward to Eloise McPike, Agent for Charles D
6 Productions, Incorporated, Class B Tavern, Tavern
7 Amusement (Cabaret/Nite Club) and Tavern Dance
8 applications for "Focused" at 3500 West Park Hill
9 Avenue, represented by the infamous Karma Rodgers.
10 MS. RODGERS: Yes.
11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And I didn't know that you
12 joined Gonzalez, Saggio & Harlan here.
13 MS. RODGERS: Yes, I did.
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Congratulations to you on
15 that.
16 MS. RODGERS: Thank you.
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Before we begin that, we
18 have two new committee members, so I just will need
19 both Alderman Henningsen and Alderman Davis to affirm
20 that they have read through the transcripts of the
21 previous hearing as it was held on March 11th of 2003.
22 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Mr. Chair, I read the
23 transcript and did watch in my office, actually, too.
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay.
25 ALDERMAN DAVIS: And Mr. Chair, I have read
00003
1 the transcript.
2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Likewise. Okay. And we can
3 move forward. You are Miss McPike then here?
4 MS. McPIKE: Yes.
5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And, sir, you are?
6 MR. JONES: I am Johnny Jones.
7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. You are one of the
8 corporate --
9 MR. JONES: Correct.
10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Could you both please raise
11 your right hand?
12 (Whereupon Ms. McPike and Mr. Jones were
13 sworn under oath.)
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. And do you, Miss
15 McPike, acknowledge receiving notice of today's
16 meeting with the possibility that your Tavern, Tavern
17 Dance applications could be denied based on items in
18 the police report, as well as -- and I'll read this
19 again into the record, -- neighborhood objections to
20 the granting of these licenses will lead to loitering,
21 littering, loud music and noise, disorderly conduct,
22 public urination, traffic problems, operating another
23 business on the Class B tavern premises is not allowed
24 under state law, concentration of alcohol beverage
25 outlets in the area, past history of the previous
00004
1 licensed premises and conduct which is detrimental to
2 the health, safety and welfare of the neighborhood?
3 MS. McPIKE: Yes.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. We did this before.
5 We'll just in deference, it's not going to hurt us,
6 just go around the horn. Health Department?
7 MR. HULBERT: Health Department needs an
8 inspection of the premises.
9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Neighborhood Services?
10 MS. JACOBS: Hold for occupancy.
11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. The police report
12 was already read into the record, and this is a
13 continuation, so we won't need to do that, unless
14 Mr. Schrimpf tells me otherwise.
15 MR. SCHRIMPF: Nope.
16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Murphy, we were
17 behind on the hearing date here a number of cycles ago
18 as we are today. Are there any other residents to
19 your knowledge that are here to testify who have not
20 provided previous testimony?
21 ALDERMAN MURPHY: There are those who are
22 opposed who have not provided earlier testimony.
23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If you provided testimony
24 already, we're not going to hear from you again.
25 Could I see a show of those hands again of individuals
00005
1 who were here -- who were not here last time, that are
2 here to provide testimony in opposition today? Three
3 of you? Four of you. Okay. We'll have you raise
4 your right hands. We'll swear you in en masse here at
5 this point.
6 Miss Rodgers, if you don't have objections,
7 what we're going to do is we'll hear from those four
8 individuals, and then we'll move to your side here and
9 anyone who's here to testify in favor. At that point
10 you'll be allowed to cross-examine Miss McPike or
11 anyone else if you should so desire.
12 MS. RODGERS: That's fine. I just want to
13 point out, I believe there were only three people
14 rather than four, because I believe -- I believe
15 you're in favor of it.
16 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Right.
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. You know, if anyone
18 who is here to testify either in favor or against,
19 please raise your right hand. That way we can clear
20 this up. Okay. Go ahead.
21 (Whereupon all individuals present to
22 testify were sworn under oath.)
23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Would the individuals
24 who are here in opposition, if they could come up one
25 by one here and pull the microphone up close, and if
00006
1 you could provide first your name and your address and
2 any testimony.
3 Now, what I will state for the record, and I
4 want to state it clearly, is for those who were unable
5 to stick around last time, we have heard a fair amount
6 of testimony to this date. We've heard testimony with
7 people saying that there's not adequate parking, that
8 there were concerns with the previous establishment
9 which had a license at this location, that there was
10 garbage and there was other debris, and there were
11 needles among other things there at that location.
12 What I'm asking for is that we not get to
13 the point where we have redundant testimony where
14 we're hearing the same things over again. Because
15 some of this is new, I will allow -- if one person
16 comes and says loud noise and loud music, if the
17 second person coming to testify is going to say the
18 same thing, that they just state their name and their
19 address and "I substantially agree or disagree,"
20 unless you have new testimony that has not yet been
21 heard, so -- Thank you. Ma'am, if you could provide
22 us your name and your address, please.
23 MS. GREENE: My name is Doris Greene. I
24 live at 534 North 33rd Street.
25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm sorry. You said it was
00007
1 Doris --
2 MS. GREENE: Doris Greene, the color with an
3 E. I live at 534 North 33rd Street.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Go ahead, ma'am.
5 MS. GREENE: Okay. I actually brought some
6 documents against the hearing. I'm opposed, and it's
7 got a map of the general area and the parking that I
8 was going to do in my presentation today.
9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: If you could provide a copy
10 to counsel here, that would be appreciated.
11 MS. GREENE: Okay. I've got plenty.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And Alderman Davis will move
13 to make this item part of our record. Hearing no
14 objection, so ordered.
15 MS. RODGERS: I'm sorry. Alderman Davis
16 will move what?
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: To make this item a part of
18 our record.
19 MS. RODGERS: This item?
20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yes, the map and the
21 associated letter.
22 MS. RODGERS: Before we do that, I'd like an
23 opportunity to review what we have here.
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Absolutely, absolutely.
25 Miss Greene, could you just pause one moment in your
00008
1 testimony?
2 MS. GREENE: Sure. I would like to make one
3 comment. I --
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Why don't you just
5 hold on one moment, please, okay?
6 MS. GREENE: Okay.
7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you.
8 MS. RODGERS: Insofar as this is purported
9 to be Miss Greene's testimony, I would just ask her to
10 testify without the use of the documents from her own
11 memory. If she would use the document to refresh her
12 memory, then that would be fine as far as I'm
13 concerned.
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. We'll get into the
15 testimony here as to where this was derived. Miss
16 Greene, did you create this own map of your own here,
17 or is this something that you pulled off the computer
18 somewhere?
19 MS. GREENE: I was able to obtain the map,
20 and then I put that together, the colors and all that,
21 myself.
22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Where did you obtain this
23 map from?
24 MS. GREENE: I believe -- I'm not sure where
25 it came from, but it was given to me by my husband.
00009
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: To your knowledge is this a
2 representation of the neighborhood, including the
3 parcels thereof --
4 MS. GREENE: Yes.
5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- on these blocks? Did you
6 unwittingly alter any of these documents in your own
7 volition?
8 MS. GREENE: No. Whatever you see is
9 exactly what's on that page.
10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And to your knowledge all
11 the information contained herein is accurate?
12 MS. GREENE: Yes.
13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Please proceed.
14 MS. GREENE: Okay. I did not know the exact
15 address of the building, so that is not listed on the
16 document. If that could be added to this, -- It's
17 3500, I believe, West Park Hill is the actual address
18 of the application.
19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. And that would
20 probably be the red -- Is that the red --
21 MS. GREENE: Can I look at the document?
22 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Well, I think we can state
23 that's the address, 3500 West Park Hill Avenue. We're
24 not going to argue it, or we'll be here till two in
25 the morning if we go about it that way.
00010
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yeah, okay. Please go on.
2 MS. GREENE: Can I look at this document
3 now?
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sure. Absolutely.
5 MS. GREENE: Okay. The address is on Park
6 Hill. It's at the bottom. The 3500 is the corner
7 address of the tavern in question. As you'll notice,
8 this Park Hill runs along I-94 going west. You have
9 an on-ramp and an off-ramp of I-94 which is high-
10 lighted in yellow. There's no parking on that side
11 of the street. Okay.
12 As you see yellow throughout 35th Street and
13 on 36th Street, there's no parking available. You
14 know, there's businesses along that street, and as you
15 can see in the brown, there's also bus stops, and in
16 the blue you have two gas stations. One of the gas
17 stations has an entrance off of Park Hill and an
18 entrance off of 35th Street, so there's very limited
19 parking there. The other gas station is on Mount
20 Vernon, and again you have an entrance on Mount Vernon
21 and again on 35th Street.
22 MS. RODGERS: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to
23 object to this line of testimony in that Miss Greene
24 is not an expert or traffic engineer, so I mean I can
25 understand that she's trying to educate us as to what
00011
1 that area looks like, but she's not an engineer, and I
2 would rather just have her testify as to what her --
3 based on her personal knowledge, what the -- what her
4 concerns are about this bar. We understand she has a
5 concern about parking.
6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Miss Rodgers, your objection
7 will be duly noted. I think that that's what she's
8 doing, and what she's providing here, I guess we will
9 all say that the committee will take into
10 consideration as her opinions here based on what she
11 has seen and marked on the map, and whether what she's
12 saying is true, we're not going to say that this is
13 the official city guide here to that.
14 MS. GREENE: Okay. My objections to the
15 license is based on not enough parking, and if you --
16 There are existing two taverns in a three-block area.
17 This would make the third tavern, and they're all
18 going to be competing for parking in this small area.
19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Any questions?
20 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chairman.
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Davis.
22 ALDERMAN DAVIS: You had mentioned that I
23 moved that this be part of the official record. I
24 will not move that this be part of the official
25 record. If any other committee member would like to,
00012
1 but this is -- and the reason why is that it's not to
2 scale, and it doesn't give me an exact figure, -- or
3 it doesn't give me data that's true, so I would accept
4 this as information, but I would not -- And it gives
5 me information on what Mrs. Greene is trying to relate
6 to the committee, but I will not move to make this
7 part of the official record because it is not to
8 scale, and I don't know if in fact these are the
9 guidelines as it deals with the no parking guidelines
10 along these corridors.
11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, Alderman. We've
12 already moved to make this part of the record.
13 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: I'll so also move.
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: It's already happened,
15 Alderman Henningsen. I did actually move to make this
16 a part of the record. If Alderman Davis wants to
17 raise objections, we'll note that after the fact, but
18 I did move to make this part of the record. That's
19 when you raised questions about the information that
20 was herein contained, so --
21 ALDERMAN DAVIS: So, Mr. Chair, --
22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead, Alderman.
23 ALDERMAN DAVIS: I'm asking a question. I
24 did not move to make this a part of the record; is
25 that correct?
00013
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Davis, what happens
2 here on the Common Council, -- and I'm not certain
3 what happened on the County Board, because I don't --
4 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chairman, --
5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Davis, as the
6 chairman, please, --
7 ALDERMAN DAVIS: I understand.
8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: -- I would ask for due
9 deference here at this point. I don't know what
10 happens on the County Board, --
11 ALDERMAN DAVIS: We're not on the County
12 Board, Chairman, so please don't refer to the County
13 Board.
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I'm going to call for a
15 five-minute recess.
16 (Recess held.)
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: We are now reconvened
18 at 3:30. I will have Alderman Davis move for
19 reconsideration of having the map and associated
20 letter as part of our file. Hearing no objection,
21 so ordered.
22 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Then I would move --
23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I will then have Alderman
24 Henningsen move approval, --
25 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: No, no.
00014
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Or move that this item be
2 made a part of our record. Are there any objections
3 to that? Hearing none, so ordered. Can we now move
4 forward here? Is there any other testimony from you,
5 Miss Greene?
6 MS. GREENE: Well, as I mentioned earlier,
7 I'm concerned because there are two taverns. There's
8 one on 35th Street which is right down the street, and
9 then there's one on 36th Street, and they're all going
10 to be competing for all this parking area. And with
11 my understanding of their capacity to how many people
12 they have, with the limited parking, it's going to
13 channel throughout all the homes in the area, and it's
14 a quality of life issue for us.
15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by committee?
16 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Mr. Chair?
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Henningsen.
18 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: As a resident
19 of the neighborhood, do you know how long this
20 establishment's been closed?
21 MS. GREENE: Yes.
22 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: And it was closed for
23 four or five years before this applicant, and at that
24 time it was only operated for a year or so?
25 MS. GREENE: About one to two years.
00015
1 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: And then how many
2 years prior to that was it vacant, ten?
3 MS. GREENE: I don't recall.
4 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: At least ten?
5 MS. GREENE: It was a while possibly.
6 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Eight to ten?
7 MS. GREENE: Eight to ten.
8 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: That's my
9 recollection. My district is across the street, so I
10 do note that it's been vacant for some time and only
11 run in the interim just a short period of time.
12 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman?
13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf.
14 MR. SCHRIMPF: Thank you. Ma'am, directing
15 your attention to the green areas on the map, you
16 colored those areas green?
17 MS. GREENE: Yes, I did.
18 MR. SCHRIMPF: And you indicate that those
19 are child care centers?
20 MS. GREENE: Yes.
21 MR. SCHRIMPF: Do you happen to know what
22 the hours of operation of those child care centers
23 are?
24 MS. GREENE: No, I don't.
25 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's all I have.
00016
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Any other questions
2 by committee? Miss Rodgers, do you have any questions
3 of Miss Greene?
4 MS. RODGERS: Yes, I do. Miss Greene,
5 directing your attention also to the green area where
6 you've indicated that there's a child care center,
7 that is approximately how many blocks from the Park
8 Hill address?
9 MS. GREENE: The child care area? Well, one
10 is right next door, and one is on the corner of Park
11 Hill.
12 MS. RODGERS: The light green or the dark
13 green you're referring to?
14 MS. GREENE: The dark green. The light
15 green is the actual park.
16 MS. RODGERS: That's the Merrill Park?
17 MS. GREENE: That is Merrill Park.
18 MS. RODGERS: Okay. And there is a child
19 care facility two doors away; is that correct?
20 MS. GREENE: Next door, and then one is on
21 the corner.
22 MS. RODGERS: Okay. And the child care
23 center is only open during the day; is that correct?
24 MS. GREENE: I imagine. I cannot say that.
25 MS. RODGERS: Have you seen the child care
00017
1 center open at night at all? Have you seen the child
2 care center open at night?
3 MS. GREENE: Open at night?
4 MS. RODGERS: Yes.
5 MS. GREENE: I have not seen any children
6 outside if that's what you're relating to.
7 MS. RODGERS: Well, now I'd -- Have you seen
8 it open is my question.
9 MS. GREENE: No.
10 MS. RODGERS: And you have not seen any
11 children outside, either.
12 MS. GREENE: No.
13 MS. RODGERS: You indicated, Miss Greene,
14 that you didn't know the address of the bar, but you
15 created this map anyway without knowing the address;
16 is that correct?
17 MS. GREENE: That's correct.
18 MS. RODGERS: Okay. Did you -- Have you
19 ever made an attempt to talk with Miss McPike or
20 Mr. Jones?
21 MS. GREENE: Yes, I have.
22 MS. RODGERS: And have you talked with them?
23 MS. GREENE: Yes, I did.
24 MS. RODGERS: And what was your conversation
25 with them?
00018
1 MS. GREENE: I talked with them the night
2 that -- on Valentine's Day, the night that Alderman
3 Murphy had a meeting at Merrill Park, and I advised
4 them at that time I was concerned about parking and I
5 would not support the license.
6 MS. RODGERS: And your concern is about
7 parking, and you won't support the license.
8 MS. GREENE: Uh-hmm.
9 MS. RODGERS: Did you talk with them at all
10 about whether or not -- how they were going to run the
11 bar?
12 MS. GREENE: I didn't go into any details.
13 I listened to what they had to say.
14 MS. RODGERS: Do you know anything about
15 Miss McPike and her ability, or Mr. Jones and his
16 ability, to run the bar?
17 MS. GREENE: Run a bar?
18 MS. RODGERS: Run that bar.
19 MS. GREENE: They mentioned they had
20 experience.
21 MS. RODGERS: You never talked to them about
22 their experience?
23 MS. GREENE: I didn't go into any depth on
24 that. It was quite established at the meeting their
25 experience.
00019
1 MS. RODGERS: But that doesn't make a
2 difference to you.
3 MS. GREENE: As far as --
4 MS. RODGERS: It doesn't make a difference
5 to you whether they can run the bar well or not?
6 MS. GREENE: Yes, it does.
7 MS. RODGERS: Okay. But you believe that
8 they could run the bar well, or do you believe -- what
9 do you think about their ability?
10 MS. GREENE: I have mixed emotions about
11 that.
12 MS. RODGERS: Why do you have mixed
13 emotions?
14 MS. GREENE: I have mixed emotions in that
15 one of them is -- Some of the things that have
16 happened since they went for the license. The party
17 at the bar.
18 MS. RODGERS: Do you know anything about
19 that so-called -- the alleged party at the bar?
20 MS. GREENE: Just through hearsay.
21 MS. RODGERS: Mr. Chairman, could you ask
22 the people in the back to stop moaning and groaning?
23 It does effect the way the witness will testify and
24 the way I ask questions.
25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yes, Miss Rodgers.
00020
1 Testimony should be left to those who are here.
2 MS. RODGERS: Excuse me. I'm sorry, I
3 didn't hear.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I said testimony should be
5 left to only those here at the table. So thank you,
6 Miss Rodgers. Please proceed.
7 MS. RODGERS: Oh, so --
8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Miss Rodgers, I'm not going
9 to have you run my hearing, either, so please proceed.
10 MS. RODGERS: Mr. Chairman, that's exactly
11 what I was going to do is continue asking questions of
12 the witness. Just calm down, please.
13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Please proceed.
14 MS. RODGERS: I mean I didn't mean to --
15 I know it's a difficult time for you, but I mean I'm
16 not trying to challenge --
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Miss Rodgers, would you
18 proceed, please.
19 MS. RODGERS: Yes, I will, Mr. Chairman.
20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Go ahead. Do
21 you have any other questions?
22 MS. RODGERS: Yes, I do.
23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Please go ahead.
24 MS. RODGERS: Miss Greene, how close is your
25 home to this bar?
00021
1 MS. GREENE: About six, seven blocks.
2 MS. RODGERS: Six, seven blocks away?
3 MS. GREENE: Uh-hmm.
4 MS. RODGERS: That's a yes, isn't it?
5 MS. GREENE: What do you mean it's a yes?
6 MS. RODGERS: You said uh-hmm. I assume you
7 meant yes.
8 MS. GREENE: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes.
9 MS. RODGERS: I have no further questions.
10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay.
11 MS. RODGERS: Excuse me just a moment.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Miss Greene.
13 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: She's going to ask
14 another question.
15 MS. RODGERS: Just one moment, Your Honor.
16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay.
17 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, while we're
18 waiting; Miss Greene, how long have you lived in the
19 neighborhood?
20 MS. GREENE: I've been in the neighborhood
21 since 1968.
22 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Okay.
23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Miss Rodgers, did you have
24 any follow-up?
25 MS. RODGERS: Yes, I do. Just one question.
00022
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead.
2 MS. RODGERS: Miss Greene, did you ever say
3 to Miss McPike that you would have no objection to her
4 opening the bar that used to be called DBR's?
5 MS. GREENE: No, I never said -- I never
6 mentioned anything about DBR's.
7 MS. RODGERS: You never said that you would
8 have no objection to that location, but you may have
9 an objection to the Park Hill address?
10 MS. GREENE: That is incorrect, no.
11 MS. RODGERS: Thank you, Miss Greene.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Thank you very much.
13 The next witness, please. Sir, same parameters; name,
14 address.
15 MR. DRAEVING: My name is David Draeving.
16 My address is --
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sir, could you spell your
18 last name?
19 MR. DRAEVING: D-r-a-e-v-i-n-g. My address
20 is P.O. Box 16578, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 53216.
21 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Mr. Chairman?
22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yes, Alderman Henningsen.
23 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: That isn't sufficient.
24 You have to give a street address.
25 MR. DRAEVING: Okay.
00023
1 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: You can give it as
2 approximate. The chairman will rule on that.
3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I don't know if that's
4 general practice, sir, but we would prefer if you
5 could provide your home address.
6 MR. DRAEVING: Well, that's our business
7 address.
8 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Your business address would
9 be fine if that's in the area.
10 MR. DRAEVING: Okay. 3530 West Park Hill,
11 Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 53208.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, Mr. Draeving, please
13 proceed.
14 MR. DRAEVING: We own the corner daycare
15 that they were talking about. Since this place was
16 closed, I'm not picking up a lot of filthy items like
17 condoms and beer bottles every day, pornography.
18 Since this establishment's been closed, the place --
19 the quality of life in the neighborhood is a lot
20 better. I can park my car. There isn't trashed
21 vehicles parked in front of my house. And we're
22 running a daycare, and children are outside during
23 the daylight hours. Maybe not at night because it's
24 against the law.
25 The children are out there. Like I said,
00024
1 they pick up items, and that's something I don't like
2 picking up is glass and used condoms and beer bottles.
3 You don't know what's in the beer bottle.
4 I've been there -- This has been a family
5 home for 52 years. We might move back because of our
6 other businesses, and I don't really feel I need
7 another establishment when I have a tavern on one
8 corner, a tavern on -- I don't know how many taverns
9 you have around your house, but I don't need three and
10 four bars around my house.
11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Draeving, you indicated
12 that this daycare has been in your family for 52 --
13 MR. DRAEVING: No, the home has been in our
14 family.
15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The home.
16 MR. DRAEVING: We've been in that
17 neighborhood --
18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You have a daycare out of
19 your home; is that correct?
20 MR. DRAEVING: Right.
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Questions by
22 committee?
23 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman?
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf.
25 MR. SCHRIMPF: Just so that it's clear from
00025
1 your testimony, -- Mr. Draeving, is it?
2 MR. DRAEVING: Yes.
3 MR. SCHRIMPF: When this establishment was
4 operating as a tavern, -- I'm talking now about 3500
5 West Park Hill, -- was it your experience to pick up
6 litter such as broken glass and beer bottles and used
7 condoms and that kind of thing?
8 MR. DRAEVING: Yes, and pornography.
9 MR. SCHRIMPF: And pornography. And what is
10 the age of the children you service at this daycare
11 center?
12 MR. DRAEVING: Let's see. I believe it's
13 six months to 12 years.
14 MR. SCHRIMPF: And are the children
15 permitted out to play in the yard?
16 MR. DRAEVING: Yes. It's a fenced-in play
17 area, but they do go out onto the sidewalk.
18 MR. SCHRIMPF: Did you observe the items
19 that you testified to, the broken glass, the beer
20 bottles, the used condoms, the pornographic material,
21 inside the fenced-in area?
22 MR. DRAEVING: Sometimes.
23 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's all I have.
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions?
25 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Mr. Chair.
00026
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Henningsen.
2 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Quickly, as a
3 neighbor, how long has it been closed since -- how
4 long has it been since the previous operation was
5 open?
6 MR. DRAEVING: I believe a couple years.
7 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Is that all? Okay.
8 Prior to that how long was it closed?
9 MR. DRAEVING: I really wouldn't know
10 because like I said, --
11 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Oh, you moved back.
12 All right.
13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions by
14 committee? Miss Rodgers?
15 MS. RODGERS: Yes. Mr. Draeving, what are
16 your hours of operation for the daycare?
17 MR. DRAEVING: Six to six.
18 MS. RODGERS: I'm sorry?
19 MR. DRAEVING: Six a.m. to six p.m.
20 MS. RODGERS: Okay. And how long ago -- I
21 didn't quite -- Maybe you said this and I just don't
22 remember. How long ago was it that you picked up
23 these items that --
24 MR. DRAEVING: The last time the
25 establishment was open.
00027
1 MS. RODGERS: And that was two years ago?
2 MR. DRAEVING: I believe about two.
3 MS. RODGERS: Okay. And do you know where
4 those items came from?
5 MR. DRAEVING: Wherever they were drinking
6 closest to.
7 MS. RODGERS: And is that closer to one of
8 the other bars in the area?
9 MR. DRAEVING: Well, the other bar would be
10 on Mount Vernon. The other one was on 35th Street.
11 MS. RODGERS: Okay. Do you have any way of
12 knowing whether or not the patrons from those bars --
13 MR. DRAEVING: Well, at the time the bar
14 was -- Okay. Let's clear the record then. It was gay
15 material, the bar was known as a gay bar, so whoever
16 brought the stuff was gay.
17 MS. RODGERS: Well, you have to make that
18 assumption. Some people who are not gay may have gay
19 materials.
20 MR. DRAEVING: I don't know why they would
21 throw it over there. And like I say, you'd find used
22 condoms and all that. That's not desirable.
23 MS. RODGERS: Do you know anything about the
24 two people who are the applicants here?
25 MR. DRAEVING: I know none of them.
00028
1 MS. RODGERS: And you believe that they --
2 the activities of the previous owner should be imputed
3 to these two people?
4 MR. DRAEVING: No, but my wife talked to
5 the person, and she said that there was going to be
6 an outreach program, and --
7 MS. RODGERS: I'm sorry. I don't want --
8 MR. DRAEVING: Excuse me. You asked a
9 question.
10 MS. RODGERS: I mean I would like to know
11 what you talked to people about rather than what your
12 wife talked about.
13 MR. DRAEVING: Well, that's the one they
14 addressed, and I'm showing up for the meeting.
15 MS. RODGERS: Okay. You indicated that
16 you've lived at the address 3530 West Park Hill.
17 MR. DRAEVING: Yes.
18 MS. RODGERS: For how long?
19 MR. DRAEVING: Fifty-two years.
20 MS. RODGERS: Okay. I have no further
21 questions.
22 MR. DRAEVING: Off and on. Four years in
23 the service, so --
24 MS. RODGERS: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the
25 last thing.
00029
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: He said off and on for four
2 years when he was in the service.
3 MS. RODGERS: Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mr. Draeving.
5 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman.
6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf.
7 MR. SCHRIMPF: I just want to make sure that
8 I understand. You saw these materials when the bar
9 was operating the last time, forgetting who was
10 frequenting the bar.
11 MR. DRAEVING: Right.
12 MR. SCHRIMPF: And you haven't seen these
13 materials since the bar ceased operating.
14 MR. DRAEVING: Right.
15 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's all I have.
16 MR. DRAEVING: Quality of life, like I said.
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Next witness, please.
18 Last one. You're in opposition. Sir, your name and
19 address.
20 MR. CONLON: My name is Jim Conlon. I live
21 at 523 North 32nd Street.
22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And Mr. Conlon, the spelling
23 of your last name, please.
24 MR. CONLON: C-o-n-l-o-n.
25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead, sir.
00030
1 MR. CONLON: I'm the president of the
2 Merrill Park Community Association, and we did send
3 a letter, and I'm really just here to affirm the
4 contents of the letter that at -- we discussed it at
5 the meeting. There was a concern by members at the
6 meeting -- I mean even though we're Merrill Park,
7 which is technically -- it's hard to say what's in the
8 neighborhood, but I think we're definitely in the
9 neighborhood.
10 We certainly had some of our residents
11 concerned about this license, and so that -- I mean
12 hearing them and the concern about parking, the
13 concern about noise, the concern that there had been
14 some times that the bar had been open even when it had
15 no license recently. That's just hearsay on my part,
16 but these were community residents.
17 So I'm just here to kind of affirm that our
18 Merrill Park Community Association talked about this,
19 and we were -- went on record as being unanimous
20 against the granting of the license.
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Because the last time
22 we were here, Bob Greene came forward, and there was a
23 question of whether he was acting on behalf of himself
24 or the association, because you had not formally met.
25 And is what you're testifying to today is that the
00031
1 association has formally met?
2 MR. CONLON: Yes, since Bob testified at the
3 last hearing here, yes.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And the official position is
5 that the association is in opposition to the license.
6 MR. CONLON: Yes.
7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Other questions by
8 committee?
9 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chair.
10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Davis.
11 ALDERMAN DAVIS: I just have a question for
12 the city attorney, and that is -- I know it's noticed
13 here where the application may be denied because of
14 the following reasons; and we're hearing testimony as
15 it deals with past history of the previous occupant.
16 Is it germane for us to take that into consideration
17 based upon what's before us?
18 MR. SCHRIMPF: Certainly. I mean the
19 history of a premises and how it has operated in the
20 past is something that is routinely brought to the
21 attention of the committee.
22 Even though it may have been different
23 licensees, the fact of the matter is is that if a
24 location has experienced difficulties in the past,
25 that is certainly something that the committee can
00032
1 consider in a decision to grant a license or different
2 licenses at the same location.
3 For example, I can cite a case involving the
4 Blue Canary where testimony along very similar lines
5 was received by the committee and used by the
6 committee as part of its licensing decision, and that
7 was a case that went all the way to the 7th Circuit
8 Court of Appeals in Chicago.
9 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Any other questions by
11 committee at this time? Miss Rodgers?
12 MS. RODGERS: Yes. I'd like to just state
13 for the record I have objected to the testimony of
14 what happened -- you know, the history of the location
15 because these applicants had nothing to do with what
16 happened previously. These applicants obviously can
17 only be held responsible for what these applicants
18 will do if granted the license.
19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Miss Rodgers, are you
20 referring to the testimony -- or the hearsay testimony
21 on the part of Mr. Conlon about the party on New
22 Year's Eve or --
23 MS. RODGERS: I'm responding to Alderman
24 Davis's comments -- questions to the city attorney,
25 and then my response to the city attorney's comments.
00033
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay.
2 MS. RODGERS: I have perhaps just one or two
3 questions of Mr. Conlon. You indicated that although
4 Merrill Park, your association, is not technically
5 in -- that this particular address is not technically
6 in the Merrill Park District, you still had some
7 concerns because you are close by, and you discussed
8 this at your meeting, and your testimony said that
9 your association had some concerns about this license.
10 Could you elaborate on what you mean by concerns about
11 this license?
12 MR. CONLON: Concerns about parking,
13 concerns about -- what was the main concern for our
14 neighborhood. 35th Street, our neighborhood goes to
15 35th Street, so the bar would be on the other side, so
16 it's not that far, but our main concern was parking,
17 and that would involve some late-night noise.
18 MS. RODGERS: Okay. Did your association
19 talk about the fact that this would be a gay bar?
20 MR. CONLON: I think some of our people had
21 been to this hearing last time, and they were offended
22 because they were accused of being homophobic, so they
23 talked about it in that -- in terms of feeling kind of
24 abused by certain members that were at this last
25 meeting, but I don't think in terms of what the issue
00034
1 was, that didn't come up.
2 MS. RODGERS: Okay. And just to make sure I
3 understand, you indicated that you had a vote of your
4 association, so all the members of your association
5 were opposed to this application? Is that what you
6 said?
7 MR. CONLON: The board, yes.
8 MS. RODGERS: So the board acting on behalf
9 of all the members of the association?
10 MR. CONLON: Yes.
11 MS. RODGERS: No further questions.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Conlon, was that a
13 unanimous vote of the board, or was there dissension?
14 MR. CONLON: It was unanimous.
15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And how many people comprise
16 the board?
17 MR. CONLON: I think 12.
18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. All right.
19 MR. CONLON: Two from each bureau, yes, 12.
20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mr. Conlon.
21 MS. RODGERS: One follow-up question. Were
22 all 12 members there?
23 MR. CONLON: No.
24 MS. RODGERS: How many members were there
25 that voted unanimously?
00035
1 MR. CONLON: I didn't -- There were
2 certainly enough for a quorum, but I don't remember.
3 MS. RODGERS: And your quorum is what?
4 MR. CONLON: Eight.
5 MS. RODGERS: Thank you.
6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: At this point here, Miss
7 Rodgers, we'll turn over to you. You can bring
8 forward individuals who are here in support of the
9 license.
10 Again, we would ask that you pull the
11 microphone close, that you provide your name and your
12 home address, and then your reason for supporting the
13 license. Miss Rodgers, did you just want to do it
14 haphazardly, or do you have any order or preference in
15 terms of bringing people up, or --
16 MS. RODGERS: I generally prefer not to do
17 it haphazardly, but --
18 MR. SCHRIMPF: I was just going to say,
19 Mr. Chairman, Miss Rodgers does nothing haphazardly.
20 MS. RODGERS: Thank you, Mr. City Attorney.
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: However you want to proceed
22 here.
23 MR. RUTLEY: Good afternoon. My name is
24 Mervin Rutley. I reside at 3124 West Juneau,
25 Milwaukee, 53208.
00036
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Rutley, thank you. The
2 spelling of your last name, too.
3 MR. RUTLEY: R-u-t-l-e-y.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Go ahead, sir.
5 MR. RUTLEY: I have a few concerns. I was
6 hearing that at 3530 is the daycare camp, and they
7 were talking about the parking being an issue, and I
8 can certainly understand that with the children there,
9 but for a brief moment my concern was the children.
10 If they're fenced in, and they're allowed to play on
11 the sidewalk, the concern would be not the issue of
12 the bar, but the concern that the children are right
13 next to traffic. So that was a little disturbing to
14 me, so I don't think that was of great concern.
15 Also, I heard something about gay material.
16 I have been a -- what you would call a practicing
17 homosexual for 22 years. There's no such thing as gay
18 material. There's no such thing as a gay bar. There
19 are bars that cater to men who have sex with men, as
20 well as women who have sex with women. And bars are
21 open to the public. The purpose of getting a license
22 is to sell and serve us liquor. It's not about the
23 lifestyle. It's about providing an outlet for people
24 to go and do what they choose to do.
25 I'm in support of the bar. I do know Eloise
00037
1 McPike and Johnny. I have had no problems with them
2 in the past. I did, however, support the last
3 establishment, and as I've heard on several occasions,
4 those individuals are not around, they are not
5 associated with Focused, and it seems kind of
6 prejudicial that since Alderman Henningsen has stated
7 on numerous occasions that the bar has been open on
8 various interims, and to say that you find gay
9 material, there's no such thing as gay material.
10 Condoms are used by all sexes and lifestyles, as well
11 as pornography, that caters to what you call gay and
12 none-gay individuals.
13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay.
14 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Question.
15 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yes, Alderman Henningsen.
16 And Mr. Rutley, thank you for your testimony. I just
17 will say rather than provide cross testimony in
18 responses to people who spoke before, I would prefer
19 that the testimony be germane to support of the
20 license, and that is why Miss Rodgers is allowed to
21 provide that cross testimony at the time and can
22 buttress and raise those issues, but thank you.
23 MR. RUTLEY: Thank you.
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Henningsen.
25 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Do you know what the
00038
1 capacity is of the establishment?
2 MR. RUTLEY: I'm sorry, I don't know.
3 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: What is your thoughts
4 on where the parking is going to be?
5 MR. RUTLEY: The parking in my thought, or
6 in my experience of going to that area, is behind the
7 bus stop on 35th Street, but not to block the driveway
8 of what I believe was a dental or some type of medical
9 facility. You can park across the street which is
10 part of where the MATC Local 587 Union meets. That's
11 parking on the street which is, I want to say, north
12 of the gas station.
13 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: On Mount Vernon?
14 MR. RUTLEY: No, on 35th Street.
15 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Okay.
16 MR. RUTLEY: It's across the street, but --
17 Not on the gas station lot, but north of there. That
18 parking is there. There's also parking on Park Hill,
19 with the exception of -- I believe there is a daycare
20 right next to the establishment, but there's a drive-
21 way there which is no parking, and any individuals
22 that would park in those areas, it's their
23 responsibility for the ticket that they would incur.
24 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: So how many off-street
25 spaces do you think are in the immediate area besides
00039
1 this old optometrist place which no longer is going to
2 allow parking?
3 MR. RUTLEY: You can park on Park Hill, the
4 3400 block, comfortably, which I've done before. You
5 can park across the street north of the gas station on
6 the --
7 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: East side.
8 MR. RUTLEY: -- east side. You can park on
9 the west side maybe two or three cars from the bus
10 stop up until the driveway. You can park on 35th
11 Street from --
12 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Okay. Could I direct
13 your attention to that map?
14 MR. SCHRIMPF: For the record, Mr. Chairman,
15 this is the map drawn by --
16 MS. RODGERS: Miss Greene.
17 MR. SCHRIMPF: Yes, Miss Greene.
18 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Instead of going block
19 by block, could you look at the map and focus on the
20 areas that are marked in yellow?
21 MR. RUTLEY: Okay.
22 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Those on the index up
23 top are said to be no parking areas because there's an
24 on-ramp to I-94, there's an off-ramp from I-94,
25 there's bus stops, etcetera. Do you agree with the
00040
1 location of those yellow areas as being none -- no
2 parking?
3 MR. RUTLEY: With the on-ramp --
4 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: No. Is the yellow,
5 which is no parking, does that match your recollection
6 as to where the no parking areas are?
7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Henningsen, I --
8 MR. RUTLEY: The off-ramp, yes. The
9 off-ramp is very accurate. The on-ramp, no. The
10 vacant lot I'm not familiar with. And as you go into
11 the private property areas, I'm not familiar with that
12 because I wouldn't have a reason to be in those areas.
13 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Okay. Thank you.
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Any other questions by
15 committee at this point?
16 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Mr. Chairman?
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Murphy.
18 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Sir, you live in the 3100
19 block of Juneau?
20 MR. RUTLEY: 3124, yes, sir.
21 ALDERMAN MURPHY: How many blocks is that
22 from this establishment?
23 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Six or seven.
24 MR. RUTLEY: Probably eight comfortably.
25 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Thank you.
00041
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mr. Rutley.
2 MR. RUTLEY: Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The next person, please.
4 Good afternoon, sir.
5 MR. DANIELS: Good afternoon. My name is
6 Charles Daniels. My address is 203 North 35th Street.
7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead, Mr. Daniels.
8 MR. DANIELS: I actually am for this bar.
9 I've been gay comfortably, as the last individual
10 stated, since I can remember. I'm 34 years old now.
11 This establishment will bring a lot of
12 comfortability to our community. As of now we don't
13 have anyplace to go as a community. We do events at
14 hotels, we do events in community centers. Now our
15 people are going to other clubs, meaning clubs that
16 cater to heterosexual people, -- what we consider, you
17 know, -- but they don't want us there.
18 A lot of our, quote-unquote, gay individuals
19 are jumped on, beat up. Since this has happened, I
20 park my car on the street right outside my house. My
21 window -- my light window was smashed in. I had the
22 neighbors coming up the street just walking past my
23 house just looking, trying to, you know, find things.
24 And as far as the materials outside, -- I have a lot
25 of concerns that we, you know, as a community are
00042
1 being treated unfairly.
2 This meeting -- I was at that meeting, and I
3 spoke on behalf of this club. There was testimony
4 there by the owner of the optical place nextdoor who
5 made a statement that it's a known fact by a study
6 done by Marquette that gay people drink more than
7 heterosexual people. I was offended, and at that time
8 I thought Alderman Murphy should have stopped him
9 because it was not a gay forum.
10 MS. RODGERS: Okay. Mr. Daniels, you
11 indicated that you had events at hotels. Have you
12 ever had any trouble at any of those hotels in terms
13 of the kind of testimony that we've heard today about
14 the incidents -- any of those incidents related to
15 condoms or beer bottles or any negative --
16 MR. DANIELS: No, because we provide
17 security at all our events. We work also in
18 conjunction with the facility that we are having the
19 events at, so no, we haven't had that type of problem.
20 MS. RODGERS: Now, what is your association
21 with Charles D Productions?
22 MR. DANIELS: Actually I am the executive
23 director of HIV/AIDS Prevention Services; not only
24 just for Charles D Productions, but I also do outreach
25 with the CDC, Center for Disease Control, and I'm also
00043
1 with the PHIV Project, Prevention of HIV and Positive
2 Persons Project, which is a statewide campaign that
3 works around preventing HIV and testing of those
4 people who are HIV-infected.
5 MS. RODGERS: And how long have you been
6 doing that?
7 MR. DANIELS: I've been doing that for ten
8 years.
9 MS. RODGERS: And have you received -- Has
10 the organization, through Miss McPike and through
11 other individuals of the organization, received
12 commendations and citations from elected officials?
13 MR. DANIELS: Yes, we have. We've received
14 commendations and recommendations from the governor
15 and from the mayor. We have campaigns of -- our
16 statewide campaign.
17 We have also received declarations from the
18 Urban League, Human Rights League, for what we do in
19 the community. We've also received commendations
20 from other organizations; the LGBT Community Center
21 and many other organizations that are working in the
22 community.
23 MS. RODGERS: Now, what involvement will you
24 have with Focused?
25 MR. DANIELS: Besides being a patron there,
00044
1 I want to be there to let those people know -- because
2 we don't have a place to where we can get that
3 information out, and being in this -- being in the gay
4 life, you have to give them information where they'll
5 take it, and we have no outlets in order to give it to
6 our people, and within the state of emergency,
7 African-American men, or men who have sex with men,
8 are the highest rate of individuals who are HIV
9 positive, and that's -- we want to get it to them
10 where they'll be, and right now we have no way of
11 doing that, and we need that.
12 MS. RODGERS: And your organization provides
13 educational information?
14 MR. DANIELS: Yes, it does.
15 MS. RODGERS: And that's the information
16 you're talking about from time to time that you would
17 give out?
18 MR. DANIELS: Yes. We work in conjunction
19 with AIDS Resource Center of Wisconsin and also AIDS
20 Network of Madison, the Urban League of Madison, and
21 they do -- also the Division of Health, and they do
22 our testing, and they provide the condoms and all of
23 that thing.
24 MS. RODGERS: Okay. And what's the
25 proximity to where you live and this bar?
00045
1 MR. DANIELS: Actually I live above the bar,
2 so that's how I know what -- you know, as far as what
3 I say about individuals coming around, and that's how
4 I know because I live above the bar.
5 MS. RODGERS: At one point were you a
6 director or officer of Charles D Productions?
7 MR. DANIELS: Yes, I was. Actually I
8 founded the organization ten years ago, so I was the
9 founding partner of the organization. But being in
10 the work that I do, the state has a mandate that you
11 cannot be a board of director and provide the same
12 services with getting compensation.
13 And I love my people. I want to provide
14 this service, so we had board meetings. The state was
15 at our meeting. They recommended that I step down. I
16 was no longer put in charge. I was no longer on the
17 board of directors. I became the executive director
18 of HIV/AIDS Prevention Services.
19 MS. RODGERS: And when did that happen,
20 Mr. Daniels?
21 MR. DANIELS: That happened in June of this
22 year. Actually last year, I'm sorry.
23 MS. RODGERS: June of 2002?
24 MR. DANIELS: Yes.
25 MS. RODGERS: So you have not been on the
00046
1 board, nor have you been an officer of the
2 corporation, since June of 2002; is that correct?
3 MR. DANIELS: Yes. I've just been providing
4 services through the Division of Health and through
5 LGBT Community Center and the PHIV Project. And I
6 also provide capacity-building for other organizations
7 that work around HIV and technical assistance.
8 MS. RODGERS: I have no further questions.
9 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman?
10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Before we begin, again, if
11 anyone has a cell phone or pager on, it's disturbing
12 to the committee. If you could please turn those off
13 while you're here in the room. If you need to make a
14 phone call, go on out in the hallway. But while
15 you're here, we'd appreciate if you turn those off.
16 Questions by committee? At this point, Mr. Schrimpf,
17 hold on.
18 MR. SCHRIMPF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Aldermen Henningsen first.
20 MR. SCHRIMPF: Oh, I'm sorry.
21 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Are there going to be
22 clients of the organization coming to the location
23 besides customers of the tavern?
24 MR. DANIELS: When you say clients, are you
25 stating that we will be providing -- giving them, you
00047
1 know, counseling and testing? We won't be doing that.
2 There will be time to time that we'll have special
3 events, I'm sure, where they will close the club down
4 or probably have HIV/AIDS testing. That happens in a
5 lot of local clubs.
6 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Okay. So normally you
7 just use the upstairs and your location as an
8 office --
9 MR. DANIELS: Yes, I do.
10 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: -- as an office.
11 MR. DANIELS: No. Actually I live upstairs.
12 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: I understand. But the
13 AIDS prevention and so forth, that organization is
14 just using it as an office, or do they have clients?
15 MR. DANIELS: Like I say, we work in
16 conjunction with other organizations. We work out of
17 the LGBT Community Center, also, and the address at
18 203 North 35th Street, we do some things. That's a
19 number where they can contact us. They can contact me
20 and other board members as far as, you know, getting
21 information. We do referral services, so if that's
22 what you mean, yes.
23 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Right, but wait, wait,
24 wait. Let me ask you one more time. Besides the
25 special events, do clients go to your address?
00048
1 MR. DANIELS: No, they don't. We don't have
2 clients. No, we don't.
3 MS. RODGERS: Mr. Daniels, if you would just
4 allow the person to ask the question before you answer
5 it.
6 MR. DANIELS: Okay, yeah.
7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Alderman
8 Henningsen?
9 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: I'm done.
10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Other questions?
11 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chair.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Davis.
13 ALDERMAN DAVIS: I have a question as it
14 deals with the committee hearing on 3/11 and some of
15 the testimony. Mr. Daniels, were you aware of a New
16 Year's Eve party?
17 MR. DANIELS: Yes, I was.
18 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Did you attend that New
19 Year's Eve party?
20 MR. DANIELS: Yes, I did. It was in my
21 home.
22 ALDERMAN DAVIS: It was in your home?
23 MR. DANIELS: Yes.
24 ALDERMAN DAVIS: There was testimony based
25 upon the minutes -- Well, I will ask you, were you
00049
1 responsible for that particular party?
2 MR. DANIELS: Yes, I was.
3 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Did you approve of the
4 15-dollar admission fee --
5 MR. DANIELS: Yes, I did. Being --
6 ALDERMAN DAVIS: -- to attend that
7 particular party?
8 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Let him ask the
9 question.
10 MR. DANIELS: Yes, I approved of that.
11 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf?
13 MR. SCHRIMPF: I think Alderman Henningsen
14 may have gone as far with it as -- I'm trying to track
15 down what services are going to be provided in terms
16 of counseling, referral, information, testing, at 3500
17 West Park Hill, the tavern.
18 MR. DANIELS: And as I said, we won't be
19 providing any of those services there. We will have
20 other individuals that may come in from time to time.
21 ARCW has what they consider, as we do, outreach
22 specialists, and they do bring in individuals to come
23 in to do questionnaires, sort of that thing like that.
24 We actually don't provide any testing. All of that is
25 done through the work with other organizations.
00050
1 We provide capacity-building organizations,
2 we do group sessions, we do outreach, and most of
3 those things are done through the LGBT Community
4 Center.
5 MR. SCHRIMPF: Will any of those things be
6 done -- talking about community outreach, talking
7 about counseling, -- will any of that be done at 3500
8 West Park Hill?
9 MR. DANIELS: Not counseling. We will have
10 individuals, I'm sure, from ARCW, because they ask us
11 from time to time to bring -- Like we had a big event
12 last night. ARCW asked could they come to our event
13 and do testing, and we provide that. That is a way of
14 getting our individuals tested. So if they want to
15 come into the organization and say, well, if you have
16 an event, can we come in and do something of that
17 sort, I'm sure it will be provided.
18 MR. SCHRIMPF: And that would be done at
19 3500 West Park Hill if necessary.
20 MR. DANIELS: Not testing. There's no --
21 MR. SCHRIMPF: With no exception of testing.
22 MR. DANIELS: Yes. There will be people
23 coming and talking to individuals about HIV and AIDS,
24 just as they would be doing on the corners.
25 MR. SCHRIMPF: Okay. That's all I have,
00051
1 Mr. Chair.
2 MS. RODGERS: So Mr. Daniels, you are saying
3 that -- Well, let me back up and ask you, can you just
4 tell us what the acronym of AFCW stands for?
5 MR. DANIELS: Excuse me?
6 MS. RODGERS: AFCW. What does that stand
7 for?
8 MR. DANIELS: ARCW?
9 MS. RODGERS: ARCW.
10 MR. RUTLEY: It's AIDS Resource Center of
11 Wisconsin.
12 MS. RODGERS: And they do testing; is that
13 correct?
14 MR. DANIELS: Yes, they do. They do provide
15 testing.
16 MS. RODGERS: And they will ask different
17 organizations if they may attend a function to do the
18 testing; is that correct?
19 MR. DANIELS: Yes, they do.
20 MS. RODGERS: Okay. Now, you talked about
21 another organization. You gave another acronym. What
22 does that acronym stand for, LG --
23 MR. DANIELS: LGBT Community Center. It's
24 the Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Community Center.
25 MS. RODGERS: Okay. And what does that
00052
1 organization do related to testing?
2 MR. DANIELS: They do outreach, they provide
3 space for our organization, plus other organizations
4 to do counseling. They also are in conjunction with
5 us of the statewide thing that we do with the Circle
6 of Friends Project. It's for reaching men of color
7 who have sex with men who are HIV positive. They
8 provide space for us for that.
9 MS. RODGERS: Space for you to do
10 counseling?
11 MR. DANIELS: Yeah. We have our meetings
12 there through the PHIV Project. It's also actually
13 ran by the CDC. The money comes from the CDC,
14 Division of Health.
15 MS. RODGERS: Okay. I have no further
16 questions.
17 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Mr. Chairman?
18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Murphy.
19 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Mr. Daniels, how long have
20 you been living at this establishment?
21 MR. DANIELS: I've been living there
22 probably five months.
23 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Thank you.
24 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: One follow-up,
25 Mr. Chair.
00053
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Henningsen.
2 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: You referred to a
3 party last night. Where was that?
4 MR. DANIELS: At the Hilton. Do you -- Is
5 that all you need to know?
6 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: That's fine, that's
7 fine.
8 MR. DANIELS: Okay.
9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mr. Daniels.
10 MR. DANIELS: Okay. Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Miss Rodgers, whoever you
12 select next here.
13 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chair, I have --
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Davis.
15 ALDERMAN DAVIS: I just have one more
16 question for Mr. Daniels.
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Certainly.
18 ALDERMAN DAVIS: You just indicated to
19 Alderman Henningsen that you've been a resident at
20 this particular location for five months?
21 MR. DANIELS: Yes.
22 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Then it would be to my
23 understanding that you had just moved into the
24 property when you hosted this New Year's Eve party?
25 MR. DANIELS: Yes. Actually, -- Can I go
00054
1 on?
2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Certainly.
3 MR. DANIELS: Okay. Actually what we do, we
4 do a New Year's Eve party every year. The funds from
5 that provide -- go to our -- We give out free
6 Thanksgiving baskets to individuals who are HIV
7 positive. We also do HIV picnics that we give --
8 which the proclamations and the awards are from the
9 governor and the mayor. We also do award ceremonies
10 for individuals who work around HIV and AIDS, so
11 that's where the money went to.
12 But at that time, I was informed by Eloise
13 McPike and Johnny Jones, and they went to the board
14 that we would have a space, and we had already told
15 individuals, so they're used to every year that we
16 have this event, and it's a donation. So at the time,
17 they didn't get the license at the time, and we just
18 said why don't I just have it in my house, so --
19 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Daniels, I'm not
20 questioning the merit of the event. What I'm
21 questioning is the timing.
22 MR. DANIELS: Yes.
23 ALDERMAN DAVIS: And the timing is that when
24 you first -- when you moved into this particular
25 space, is that when you hosted the party?
00055
1 MR. DANIELS: Probably like two months after
2 that, so it probably had been like seven months. Two
3 months after that, yeah, because I was there for
4 probably two months before that time.
5 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Who was the owner of the
6 property?
7 MR. DANIELS: His name is -- Eloise?
8 MS. JACOBS: I have that information. Ron
9 Pashefski and Cheryl Mendeloff.
10 ALDERMAN DAVIS: And Mr. Daniels, did you
11 have the permission of the owners of that property to
12 host this particular party?
13 MR. DANIELS: No, I did not. Can I go on?
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Please. Answer the
15 question.
16 MR. DANIELS: I don't know when I can or
17 not. So no, I didn't. I feel I was paying them rent
18 and it was my home. I didn't feel that I had to go --
19 Well, I didn't know I had to go get permission of the
20 owner to have a party in my own house that I'm paying
21 rent for, so, yeah, I wasn't aware of that.
22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are you finished?
23 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
24 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Can I follow up on that
25 line of questioning?
00056
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Murphy.
2 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Mr. Daniels, was alcohol
3 served at that party?
4 MR. DANIELS: Excuse me?
5 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Was alcohol served at that
6 party?
7 MR. DANIELS: Yes, there was.
8 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Are you aware that
9 citizens in the neighborhood had gone up to the door
10 of the tavern that night and were told that they were
11 not to be permitted in unless they paid a 15-dollar
12 cover charge?
13 MR. DANIELS: Well, I'm aware that they
14 talked to Eloise, and also aware that the police
15 did come. The police spoke with me, and he asked me
16 who's having a party. I said it was Charles D
17 Productions.
18 The police were actually there. There
19 should be a report filed that the police came. He
20 said, "We have complaints about the music." And I
21 asked him, "Is the music too loud?" And he said,
22 "Well, I don't hear it." It was two officers, one
23 male, one female.
24 ALDERMAN MURPHY: So the answer to my
25 question was yes. Thank you.
00057
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Daniels, I do have a
2 follow-up.
3 MR. DANIELS: Okay.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Do you know a Janice
5 Barnett?
6 MR. DANIELS: Yes.
7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And was she a member of
8 Charles -- on the board of Charles D Productions?
9 MR. DANIELS: She is an employee of Charles
10 D Productions, uh-hmm.
11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: She's an employee of Charles
12 D Productions. Are you aware that according to her
13 testimony at the last hearing, -- it's on page 79 of
14 the transcript, -- she stated, "I used to be in
15 Charles D Productions. I resigned, so I can't get
16 paid from the organization through grants. I heard
17 that -- someone was speaking that there was a party
18 there that night, but it was a private party, okay?
19 Maybe the club was not supposed to be open, but the
20 understanding that I get is as long as you're not
21 serving liquor, you can have a party and you can
22 charge at the door. There's no law against that; at
23 least that's what I know. So it was a party given
24 there." Was she present that evening?
25 MR. DANIELS: Yes, she was. I think maybe
00058
1 you should -- because you said that there was alcohol
2 served. Is that meaning -- When we say served, is
3 that meaning you're charging for alcohol or you're
4 providing alcohol for your guests? I mean I'm just
5 trying to get some type of -- What are you saying,
6 we're providing or were we selling it?
7 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I can only tell you what I
8 personally gathered from her testimony.
9 MR. DANIELS: Because there was -- I mean
10 unless you ask her what she meant by it, because
11 there's two ways you can take that.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Are you saying that this --
13 How large of an apartment do you have?
14 MR. DANIELS: It's a five-bedroom apartment
15 up there, plus a living room, dining room, plus the
16 opening area. Plus up there is a loft-style attic
17 upstairs, so it's very huge.
18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. That's all I
19 have. Thank you.
20 MS. RODGERS: I have just a couple
21 follow-ups. I planned for Miss McPike to testify to
22 these matters, but you are also probably aware of
23 them, that's why I hadn't brought them up before. You
24 did mention that there traditionally is a New Year's
25 Eve party; is that correct?
00059
1 MR. DANIELS: Yes, there is.
2 MS. RODGERS: And how long of a tradition is
3 that?
4 MR. DANIELS: That has been a tradition for
5 six years.
6 MS. RODGERS: And you normally have that New
7 Year's Eve party at a hotel; is that correct?
8 MR. DANIELS: Yes. And we've also had it at
9 the LGBT Community Center one time.
10 MS. RODGERS: At the LGBT Community Center?
11 MR. DANIELS: Yes.
12 MS. RODGERS: Okay. You had it there once.
13 And you normally have it at a hotel, you testified
14 earlier; is that correct?
15 MR. DANIELS: Yes.
16 MS. RODGERS: And this time you did not have
17 it at the hotel because the arrangements were not made
18 in a timely fashion for whatever reason; is that
19 correct?
20 MR. DANIELS: Yes.
21 MS. RODGERS: And then you wanted to
22 continue to have this party because of the tradition;
23 is that correct?
24 MR. DANIELS: Yes.
25 MS. RODGERS: And so since you didn't have a
00060
1 location for it, you volunteered your apartment; is
2 that correct?
3 MR. DANIELS: Yes, I did.
4 MS. RODGERS: And how did people enter this
5 party? They entered the party through the bar area;
6 is that correct?
7 MR. DANIELS: There's a side door that goes
8 right up to my apartment from there, which is usually
9 locked.
10 MS. RODGERS: All right. But you had the
11 door open one night --
12 MR. DANIELS: Yes.
13 MS. RODGERS: -- so that you could have
14 people come up; is that correct?
15 MR. DANIELS: Yes. Instead of having the
16 danger of them coming up through my front door,
17 because that's where -- we didn't want all that
18 traffic right there.
19 MS. RODGERS: Okay. And what -- You
20 indicated that you talked directly to the police
21 officer; is that correct?
22 MR. DANIELS: Yes, I did.
23 MS. RODGERS: And, again, what did you say
24 to the police officer, and what did he say to you?
25 MR. DANIELS: The conversation started off,
00061
1 he asked, "Who's having this party." I said, "Charles
2 D Productions." He said, "I got complaints that
3 there's loud music." And I said, "Did you hear -- do
4 you hear music now?" He said, "No, I don't, but" --
5 He said, "Humor me and turn it down."
6 MS. RODGERS: So he said that to you?
7 MR. DANIELS: Yeah. He said, "Can you humor
8 me," and the lady was just standing there. Then he
9 said -- The male police officer was just speaking to
10 me. The female didn't. He said, "You guys have a
11 happy New Year."
12 MS. RODGERS: Okay. Thank you very much,
13 Mr. Daniels.
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mr. Daniels.
15 Sir, if you want to come up. Again, the same
16 parameters apply. Your name and address.
17 MR. JACKSON: My name is Joseph Jackson. My
18 address is 585 Parkway Drive Northeast, Apartment 139.
19 This is Atlanta, Georgia. Zip code is 30308.
20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Go ahead.
21 MS. RODGERS: Mr. Jackson, could you just
22 indicate why you're here testifying today?
23 MR. JACKSON: Well, my reasoning for being
24 here testifying today is on behalf of Miss McPike and
25 Mr. Johnny Jones. I've heard of them in my past as
00062
1 far as the things that they are doing here in the city
2 and trying to do for the community, as far as the gay
3 community, and so I took upon my liberty to come up
4 and compete for a competition which was held last
5 night at the Hilton Hotel, which is called Mister and
6 Miss Mystique. It's a pageant where you come and
7 compete in several different categories and gives
8 you -- If you win the competition, you go out for a
9 year, you reign as king or queen for a year to service
10 the community as far as like outreach programs,
11 raising money, monies for to help people who are
12 struggling, you know, under-privileged people who are
13 sick with AIDS. It's for people also who do not have
14 families, that you can become a family member for
15 these type of people.
16 MS. RODGERS: So this is a national
17 competition; is that correct?
18 MR. JACKSON: Yes, it's a national
19 competition. I had heard of the history of it, and so
20 I took it upon myself to compete, which I traveled
21 very far, and I also decided to stay over, and I
22 wanted to come to this meeting.
23 I was supposed to have gone back, but since
24 I have heard such wonderful things about these people,
25 I wanted to be here for them because my reason, I
00063
1 think to me, from what I've heard, -- I don't know the
2 location pretty much as far as the capacity, how large
3 the area is as far as the parking and all that. I'm
4 not too familiar with all that, but I basically have
5 been hearing a lot of things the testimony's based
6 upon. You know, preference. It's basically to me
7 about preference, and that's what I'm understanding
8 somewhat. It's about preference and lifestyles.
9 I think we all need a place to go, somewhere
10 to go to have social time, whether you're straight or
11 gay, heterosexual or gay, bisexual, whatever your
12 preference in life. It's up to the individual, and I
13 think that we should look at that and not so much as
14 the individuals as to a preference in life, but as to
15 who you are and what you are and what you care to do,
16 and I think that's about it. I think we all need
17 someplace to attend.
18 MS. RODGERS: And the reason, again, for
19 your testimony is because you've heard about this
20 organization, that it has a national reputation and a
21 reputation of being community -- providing community
22 service; is that correct?
23 MR. JACKSON: Yes.
24 MS. RODGERS: Okay. No further questions.
25 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Mr. Chairman?
00064
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by committee
2 first? Go ahead, Alderman Murphy.
3 ALDERMAN MURPHY: I missed part of that, but
4 you're testifying to the Charles D Productions Agency
5 or -- I missed that.
6 MS. RODGERS: Miss McPike and Mr. Jones.
7 ALDERMAN MURPHY: In terms of their --
8 MS. RODGERS: -- their reputation and what
9 they have done across the gay community.
10 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Okay. I think we've tried
11 to get testimony that it's not an issue about whether
12 it's gay or not and whether it's a preference. This
13 is a liquor license, so I'll finish my thoughts in my
14 closing statements, but the testimony that's being
15 elicited is not relative to the license.
16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And Mr. Jackson, I will just
17 say I appreciate your sticking around today as well,
18 too, as well as your involvement in the community as
19 well and doing good things. I will just say that the
20 hearing here -- we're going to be here until 5:30,
21 Counsel, unless we take testimony that's relevant to
22 the licensed application.
23 We'll go on the record here and say that
24 Mr. Daniels is a very committed gentleman, that he's
25 dedicated to doing good in the community. We want to
00065
1 stay as much as we can relevant to the application
2 here, so -- I have allowed some leniency in that,
3 but we want to try and stick with that as much as
4 possible.
5 MS. RODGERS: Mr. Chairman?
6 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yes.
7 MS. RODGERS: This is related to Miss McPike
8 and Mr. Jones, not Mr. Daniels. Mr. Daniels has
9 testified that he is also involved with doing things
10 in the AIDS community, but this is related to their
11 ability to run an organization and how successful the
12 organization is. That's what this testimony goes to,
13 all right?
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. As I said, I
15 think that we're stretching it to a point, but I
16 appreciate that. Are there any other questions by the
17 committee of Mr. Jackson? Thank you, Mr. Jackson, for
18 sticking around here as well, too. I appreciate it.
19 MR. JACKSON: Sure.
20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Miss Rodgers, are there any
21 others here that have yet to testify? Okay. Good
22 afternoon.
23 MS. JOHNSON: Good afternoon. My name is
24 Kenya Johnson, and I reside at 3210 West North Avenue.
25 First I understand what you're saying about keeping
00066
1 the testimony to regarding the liquor licensing, but
2 as well, I understand how people are kind of straying
3 a little bit from that because you're taking a past
4 business and comparing it to what Ms. McPike and what
5 Mr. Jones will do with the establishment.
6 I've been involved in a lot of their
7 programs, organizations, their benefits, things that
8 they have done, and it's always been safe. They've
9 always been responsible. I know what you're saying
10 about the liquor license and like when some people are
11 saying parking.
12 Before I moved in Milwaukee I lived in
13 Racine. I had to park my car on the other side of the
14 street every day. That was my responsibility as a
15 resident in that area and to be responsible. And as
16 far as when I travel to Chicago, I have to park four
17 blocks away to get to my school. I know I cannot park
18 in front of my school because there is no parking. I
19 will be towed. That is my responsibility. So when I
20 speak about Miss McPike and Mr. Jones, anything
21 they've ever done, it was always in a professional
22 manner.
23 I've been to the establishment before when
24 it was open, and I would not collaborate the two
25 because they're totally two different owners and
00067
1 responsibility. Whereas you have some businesses,
2 they come into a community, they don't think about the
3 community, but the dollar, that's all.
4 Anything Miss McPike has done out of her
5 pocket, or as well as benefits and fund-raisers, she's
6 put back. And I figure any alderman would be glad to
7 have a business owner that would be responsible as
8 well as to help improve their community in that area,
9 as well as straight or gay or regardless. When she
10 holds benefits, -- like in the summer she holds an
11 annual cookout, -- it's open to gay or straight.
12 People bring their children. She provides games, she
13 provides safe fun, she provides tournaments, where in
14 some communities people don't even -- business people
15 don't get involved. You have children that don't have
16 no place to go, and when you have children with no
17 place to go, you have uncontrolled -- you know, they
18 have no outlet.
19 As far as providing -- I mean I'm sure this
20 has nothing to do with the tavern, but as long as she
21 has the business, I feel that she would also turn that
22 back into the community, not just taking money out of
23 the community, making herself rich or lining her
24 pockets with money. It would all go back into the
25 community to make it -- not so much to make it look
00068
1 nice, but to make the community a little more -- how
2 can I say, -- sometimes actually a little safe.
3 Whenever I've been around her benefits, I feel safe.
4 It's always been in a professional manner. I've never
5 felt unsafe or that I was in danger. I've never been
6 to any of her events where I've seen trash, condoms,
7 pornography.
8 I've been to her benefits where she's had --
9 like she says, different organizations will come and
10 they set up booths with information, you know, and
11 lets you know of preventive measures, counseling or
12 other services. So I feel that any intake that she
13 has, she would just also as well return it into the
14 community. It wouldn't be as just a tavern there on
15 the corner making money and having loud parties.
16 There would also be other positive things there, I
17 see.
18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Miss Johnson.
19 MS. RODGERS: No questions.
20 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman?
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by committee?
22 Mr. Schrimpf.
23 MR. SCHRIMPF: Thank you. Ms. Johnson, was
24 it?
25 MS. JOHNSON: Yes.
00069
1 MR. SCHRIMPF: You indicated that you had
2 attended the premises before when it operated under
3 the other license.
4 MS. JOHNSON: Under a different owner, yes.
5 MR. SCHRIMPF: And how many times did you
6 attend that premises, or what sort of frequency did
7 you --
8 MS. JOHNSON: Let's see. Ladies' night used
9 to fall every Tuesday, so I'd be there on Tuesdays,
10 and then occasionally on a Saturday. And I mean even
11 though it seemed a little -- Sometimes it was just
12 someplace to go, an outlet, you know. Some place to
13 go.
14 MR. SCHRIMPF: Okay. You indicated that the
15 operation then, and the operation envisioned by Miss
16 Pike, will in no way be comparable.
17 MS. JOHNSON: I don't believe so, no.
18 MR. SCHRIMPF: Okay.
19 MS. JOHNSON: Because I met the -- well,
20 the lady that I assumed had the place, I met her and
21 everything and, you know, you can get a feel of a
22 person, and I know Miss McPike's experience from
23 dealing with her.
24 MR. SCHRIMPF: Did you observe individuals
25 at the -- When it was operated previously, did you
00070
1 observe individuals engaging in conduct that you
2 thought was inappropriate?
3 MS. JOHNSON: No. I mean I can understand
4 when they say the parking. Parking was difficult.
5 But me and my friends would park two or three blocks
6 away.
7 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, did you see litter?
8 MS. JOHNSON: On that side of town you see a
9 lot of litter. It's not just on that corner.
10 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, did you see litter like
11 condoms?
12 MS. JOHNSON: No, I've never -- No.
13 MR. SCHRIMPF: Did you see litter like
14 broken bottles?
15 MS. JOHNSON: Not in that vicinity. I never
16 actually walked around and looked on the ground for
17 broken glass.
18 MR. SCHRIMPF: Did you see litter like
19 pornographic material laying about?
20 MS. JOHNSON: No, no.
21 MR. SCHRIMPF: Now, you indicated that
22 you're familiar with the experience of Miss Pike.
23 MS. McPIKE: McPike.
24 MR. SCHRIMPF: McPike, I'm sorry. With
25 respect to that experience, is it experience that you
00071
1 have seen her in terms of the operation of a tavern,
2 or has it been in operation of other businesses?
3 MS. JOHNSON: Well, the operation of other
4 business venues, and like I said, events. And they
5 also deal with alcohol, you know. Not that she sold
6 them, but like she said, that they usually have a
7 benefit at the Hilton every year.
8 MR. SCHRIMPF: Well, but then she's not
9 responsible for the dispensing of it.
10 MS. JOHNSON: Right. But I think that shows
11 her responsibility. If the Hilton would allow what
12 some may feel is not a very comfortable group of crowd
13 of people sometimes, that they accepted her there
14 every year with no problem, and we'd get the Crystal
15 Room.
16 MR. SCHRIMPF: What wouldn't be comfortable
17 about it? I don't understand that.
18 MS. JOHNSON: Well, I mean like some places,
19 some establishments, feel that if you have gay or
20 lesbian, bisexual people in a group, you're going to
21 have people having sex in the elevators or in the
22 basement or back in a dark corner. I mean this is
23 just what I'm assuming. But I've never seen it. Like
24 I figure if the Hilton is nice enough to have us there
25 every year and love to have you back, I could see what
00072
1 she could do with her own establishment.
2 MR. SCHRIMPF: Does the Hilton even know
3 what the orientation of customers is?
4 MS. JOHNSON: I'm sure they do because she
5 has it every year. She has other -- like she says,
6 other establishments and organizations come, and
7 they set up booths for HIV information, lesbian, gay,
8 bisexual. The center, they come and they provide
9 counseling or just any type of information, so I'm
10 sure they probably know.
11 MR. SCHRIMPF: So then as I'm given to
12 understand it, you have not seen Ms. McPike be in
13 charge of an operation that is dispensing alcohol; is
14 that correct?
15 MS. JOHNSON: Not to my knowledge, no.
16 MR. SCHRIMPF: That's all I have.
17 MS. RODGERS: Just one follow-up.
18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Certainly.
19 MS. RODGERS: You've indicated that you've
20 seen her dealing with organizing and managing
21 different organizations; is that correct?
22 MS. JOHNSON: Yes.
23 MS. RODGERS: And each and every time it's
24 always been professional.
25 MS. JOHNSON: Yes, very professional. I've
00073
1 actually received a certificate for some of the help
2 that I do sometimes if I have time to volunteer in her
3 organizations, or like I said, the annual cookout.
4 You know, if I can lend a hand, you know, I'm always
5 willing to do that because I know it's responsible,
6 and actually -- they actually encouraged me to attend
7 school. I'm 32 years old, you know, so I figure that
8 outlet is -- a lot of positive things can come out of
9 it.
10 MS. RODGERS: Everything's always been
11 professional and well run?
12 MS. JOHNSON: Yes, very.
13 MS. RODGERS: And there's several different
14 avenues by which you've seen her -- areas you've seen
15 her in and operate?
16 MS. JOHNSON: Yes.
17 MS. RODGERS: Thank you.
18 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chair?
19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Davis.
20 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Miss Johnson, you have
21 indicated that you had attended the previous
22 establishment before?
23 MS. JOHNSON: Right.
24 ALDERMAN DAVIS: At any time had that
25 establishment achieved capacity during any time that
00074
1 you were at the establishment?
2 MS. JOHNSON: I'm not sure of what the
3 capacity is. I mean I've been to plenty of clubs
4 where it can -- the crowd can get a little tight, and
5 I really never actually -- probably should now with
6 the -- I've never really had to know like what the
7 establishment -- how many people it could hold in
8 capacity.
9 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Well, I guess I'll ask my
10 question in this way. Have you attended the
11 establishment where it was crowded on the inside and
12 parking was -- parking in the neighborhood was
13 extensive?
14 MS. JOHNSON: Well, we always park three
15 blocks away, so it was always -- you know, to find a
16 parking spot would be a little trying, but I figure,
17 too, that goes back to the driver. We know the rules
18 of the road. You know where you shouldn't park. If
19 you shouldn't park in front of a bus stop, you can't
20 hold the establishment accountable because a patron
21 decided to park in a place that they shouldn't.
22 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Well, I'm not trying to
23 hold anybody accountable. I'm just trying to address
24 some of the neighborhood concerns, --
25 MS. JOHNSON: Right, I understand that.
00075
1 ALDERMAN DAVIS: -- and that's what
2 I'm hearing is that parking has been an issue, and
3 it's a concern that it will be an issue, and I'm
4 trying to determine, based upon the documents that I
5 have in front of me, that it potentially may be an
6 issue based on past history of the establishment.
7 MS. JOHNSON: Right.
8 ALDERMAN DAVIS: So you have seen parking
9 being an issue with you being a patron of the previous
10 establishment; is that correct?
11 MS. JOHNSON: Parking, because there's none
12 available in that area; not parking because you
13 couldn't find a spot. Parking, because there's some
14 available. It's limited, you know, like a couple
15 spots here behind this bus sign, and then when you get
16 on the highway, you have parking along there, but --
17 you know, so it's limited, but there are parking
18 spaces if you park responsibly, I mean, so limited.
19 It's limited because of the bus stops and,
20 like you say, I-94, but the on-ramp -- there's parking
21 that goes all the way up, you know. I've seen that.
22 So when you say that about the parking, it's just a
23 matter of like, to me, finding a spot.
24 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Okay. But when you first
25 addressed the committee, you did indicate that you
00076
1 realize that parking is an issue --
2 MS. JOHNSON: Right.
3 ALDERMAN DAVIS: -- when you used to frequent
4 the other establishment, and I just wanted to get that
5 clarified for my own purposes.
6 MS. JOHNSON: Okay. Yes then.
7 ALDERMAN DAVIS: So it has been an issue
8 with the previous establishment?
9 MS. JOHNSON: Yes. Apparently, yes.
10 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Murphy?
12 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Yes. Thank you. Miss
13 Johnson, you indicated you live on 32 --
14 MS. JOHNSON: -- 10.
15 ALDERMAN MURPHY: North Avenue?
16 MS. JOHNSON: Uh-hmm.
17 ALDERMAN MURPHY: So would you say that's
18 more than a mile away from this location?
19 MS. JOHNSON: I'm not very good at that. I
20 get lost a lot.
21 ALDERMAN MURPHY: So do I.
22 MS. JOHNSON: I guess so. I never really
23 paid attention.
24 ALDERMAN MURPHY: About a mile.
25 MS. JOHNSON: Uh-hmm.
00077
1 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Okay. Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Miss Rodgers?
3 MS. RODGERS: Have you had trouble parking
4 anywhere else; downtown, different neighborhoods?
5 MS. JOHNSON: Yes. I just got a 50-dollar
6 parking ticket for parking at a meter that expired, so
7 parking is difficult pretty much, I find, a lot of
8 places, not just in that area. Parking is difficult
9 everywhere.
10 MS. RODGERS: Okay. Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Miss Johnson.
12 Good afternoon.
13 MISS McPIKE: Hello. I'm Tracy McPike. I
14 reside at 4344A North 29th Street.
15 MR. SCHRIMPF: I'm sorry, what was that
16 address?
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: 4344A North 29th. Okay.
18 Go ahead, Miss McPike.
19 MISS McPIKE: Eloise McPike is my mother,
20 and everything that she does I support. She's a very
21 positive person. Everything that she touches she
22 makes sure that it has a positive impact, regardless
23 of if it's involved in her job or the community or her
24 family.
25 Now, as far as -- I just think it's a little
00078
1 unjust that you are putting off what the previous
2 owners of this establishment did before her. It's
3 like you guys are making her prove herself to be
4 different when -- It would be different, to me, if she
5 already had the establishment, and this problem was
6 taking place while she had it. Then I can see the
7 community having the comments and things that they're
8 saying. But as far as she's never owned that facility
9 before, how are you guys putting all the mistakes that
10 the other owner made on her? It doesn't seem fair to
11 me.
12 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Miss McPike, just to answer
13 that, we haven't put anything off on --
14 MISS McPIKE: No, but you guys are bringing
15 it up.
16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: No, that was testimony that
17 was presented by the alderman's office who represents
18 that district and neighbors. We, as a committee, are
19 bound by not only city ordinances, but state laws, in
20 terms of what may be considered.
21 That is one item that is pertinent that can
22 be considered for any new application, the past
23 history, and we are required and bound by state law,
24 based on those chapters, to take those things into
25 consideration if they are brought forward to us. We
00079
1 didn't go out and seek it. We didn't add this.
2 Just so you're aware, instead of putting
3 forth a label, this is information that's being
4 provided to us. I had absolutely no knowledge of
5 this location before we took this up initially as
6 an application here, so go ahead, please.
7 MISS McPIKE: Okay. Well, as far as her
8 running any establishment that had a liquor license to
9 it, well, she was a bartender at the previous
10 establishment, and when she became bartender there,
11 the atmosphere started to change. Because before, you
12 know, the people there, they weren't really into the
13 community-type things, and when my mom stepped in and
14 became the bartender at that establishment, she made
15 sure that -- like she said, she walked the people to
16 their vehicles to make sure that they were getting out
17 of the area, that they wouldn't disturb the neighbors
18 or whatever.
19 She's the type of person that if the
20 community or the neighbors had a problem, she would
21 work twice as hard to try to solve it. She wouldn't
22 just shrug them off and not try to deal with it. And
23 if they said that there were security reasons or
24 whatever at the last meeting or whatever that they
25 had, she said that she'll put up security cameras so
00080
1 she can watch outside while she has her establishment
2 on the inside, but it's like there's no justice from
3 the community. They're not even willing to give her
4 that opportunity.
5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Thank you. Any
6 questions by the committee? Okay. Alderman Murphy,
7 anything?
8 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Miss McPike, you indicated
9 that you lived on North 29th Street. Would you say
10 you live nearly two miles from this location?
11 MISS McPIKE: Yes.
12 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Thank you.
13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Miss Rodgers, was there
14 anything else at this point?
15 MS. RODGERS: Nothing else. Thank you.
16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Miss Rodgers, do you have
17 any other members in the audience here to testify?
18 Come on up. Don't be shy.
19 MR. FOWLKES: My name is Darnell Fowlkes,
20 and I stay at 236 North 36th, and Mount Vernon.
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Fowlkes, could you spell
22 your last name, please?
23 MR. FOWLKES: F-o-w-l-k-e-s.
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Proceed.
25 MR. FOWLKES: I mean I don't mind them, you
00081
1 know, opening up the bar over there in my neighborhood
2 because, you know, maybe they might do better than the
3 other people that had the establishment. They might
4 do better than they did, and these are friends that
5 I've known for a while.
6 MS. RODGERS: And you've known both Johnny
7 and -- Miss McPike and Mr. Jones for some time; is
8 that correct?
9 MR. FOWLKES: Yes, I have.
10 MS. RODGERS: And you have experience with
11 them and the kind of management and professionalism
12 that each exhibits; is that correct?
13 MR. FOWLKES: Yes, I have.
14 MS. RODGERS: Okay. And you do live within
15 three blocks, is it?
16 MR. FOWLKES: One block.
17 MS. RODGERS: One block. And you are in
18 fact in favor of this bar; is that correct?
19 MR. FOWLKES: Yes.
20 MS. RODGERS: And you feel very strongly
21 about that?
22 MR. FOWLKES: Yeah.
23 MS. RODGERS: Thank you very much.
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Fowlkes, what is your
25 address again?
00082
1 MR. FOWLKES: 236 North 36th.
2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Thank you. Other
3 questions by committee at this time? Okay. Alderman
4 Murphy, anything?
5 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Mr. Fowlkes, how long have
6 you lived there?
7 MR. FOWLKES: I've stayed there for three
8 years now.
9 ALDERMAN MURPHY: You've lived there
10 three years.
11 MR. FOWLKES: Right.
12 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Okay. Thank you.
13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mr. Fowlkes.
14 I know there was one more here. Sir, gentleman with
15 the hat on. Good afternoon.
16 MR. JEFFERSON: Good afternoon. My name is
17 Dante Jefferson.
18 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Jefferson, just one
19 moment. I did see you come in with your son into the
20 testimony. Have you been sworn in yet at this point?
21 MR. JEFFERSON: Yes, I have.
22 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay, great. I'm sorry. Go
23 ahead.
24 MR. JEFFERSON: Okay. Well, I live at 5534
25 North 40th Street. It's right off of Silver Spring.
00083
1 I would just like to say that I knew of Miss McPike
2 all my life, and I knew Mr. Jones for basically all my
3 life, also. As far as I know is that she's very
4 responsible. She's always there for anyone that needs
5 her. I feel that it would be a good choice to allow
6 her the opportunity to open up the bar that she's
7 trying to get.
8 I also wanted to say that as I sat here, --
9 that's why I allowed everybody to make their
10 comments, -- to me, I felt like the people that were
11 against her opening up the bar, personally, I feel
12 like it was a homophobic problem. I feel there was a
13 prejudice issue of homosexual activity or whatever.
14 I've also been to that club before Miss
15 McPike even thought about opening up the club. I've
16 seen different things go on. I've seen good things,
17 and I've seen bad things. I'm not against it at all
18 because the community does need someplace to go. The
19 people need someplace to go. When you're homosexual,
20 you cannot just go anywhere and have a good time, and
21 I think that is unfair to the people. I mean
22 everybody's human.
23 So I just feel like she should have that
24 opportunity to prove herself, that she's able to do
25 better than the last establishment, you know. And I
00084
1 really believe that she can do that. And I also
2 believe that as far as parking is concerned, there
3 should be a place for them to park. The place was
4 built there as a club. It should have had spots for
5 parking. It was set on the corner as a club or a bar.
6 There should have been parking areas right then and
7 there. That's how I personally feel, you know, but
8 I'm sure if she opens up the club, it would be ran
9 perfectly, and I really seriously believe that.
10 MS. RODGERS: You've had an opportunity
11 to -- You've indicated that you've known Miss McPike
12 and Mr. Jones for quite some time; is that correct?
13 MR. JEFFERSON: Yes, ma'am.
14 MS. RODGERS: And you've had an opportunity
15 to work with them or see them and deal with their
16 level of professionalism and management style?
17 MR. JEFFERSON: Yes, ma'am.
18 MS. RODGERS: And you believe that they
19 would run a good bar?
20 MR. JEFFERSON: Yes, I do.
21 MS. RODGERS: Thank you.
22 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Mr. Chair.
23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Henningsen.
24 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: To ask a question
25 about your last statement, do you believe that because
00085
1 the building wasn't built with a parking lot, that
2 they shouldn't have to have a parking lot?
3 MR. JEFFERSON: No, I don't agree with that.
4 I believe there should be a parking lot there for
5 them, but I've been to the clubs before. I would
6 never park my car in front of a club. I would always
7 park on the next block or wherever, somewhere wherever
8 I found an open space to park. But me personally, I
9 never believed in parking in front of the club.
10 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: You were a patron of
11 the previous bar?
12 MR. JEFFERSON: Yes.
13 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Did they have the
14 permission to use the parking lot a little bit north
15 that's now called Trigram, and used to be an eye
16 place?
17 MR. JEFFERSON: Yes, they did.
18 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: They did.
19 MR. JEFFERSON: Yes.
20 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: And are you aware that
21 they then withdrew their permission to have it?
22 MR. JEFFERSON: I wasn't aware of that.
23 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Okay.
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Any other questions by
25 committee? Alderman Murphy, any follow-up here?
00086
1 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Nope.
2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you, Mr. Jefferson.
3 Miss Rodgers?
4 MS. RODGERS: Yes. The next person would be
5 Miss McPike. Would you just state your name?
6 MS. McPIKE: Eloise Elizabeth McPike.
7 MS. RODGERS: And your address for the
8 record, please?
9 MS. McPIKE: 4344 North 29th Street.
10 MS. RODGERS: And you are the applicant; is
11 that correct?
12 MS. McPIKE: Yes, I am.
13 MS. RODGERS: And Mr. Jones is also the
14 co-applicant?
15 MS. McPIKE: Yes, he is.
16 MS. RODGERS: And what is your position with
17 Charles D Productions?
18 MS. McPIKE: I and Johnny Jones are the
19 co-chair people of the organization.
20 MS. RODGERS: Were there, at some point,
21 other people who were board members?
22 MS. McPIKE: Yes, there were.
23 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Mr. Chairman? Could I
24 ask that you speak into the mike and a little louder.
25 I can't hear you.
00087
1 MS. McPIKE: Can you hear me now?
2 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Yeah.
3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you.
4 MS. McPIKE: Yes, there were. Charles,
5 Regina, Sinovia, and quite a few other people were on
6 the board.
7 MS. RODGERS: Miss Barnett was also on the
8 board?
9 MS. McPIKE: Yes, she was.
10 MS. RODGERS: How many of those people
11 resigned from the board?
12 MS. McPIKE: All of them except Johnny and
13 I.
14 MS. RODGERS: So right now your board
15 consists of two people; is that correct?
16 MS. McPIKE: Yes, and the proxy is Regina
17 Payne. She's our proxy to make it the third person.
18 MS. RODGERS: So there came a point when
19 people resigned from the board; is that correct?
20 MS. McPIKE: Yes.
21 MS. RODGERS: And why did those people
22 resign from the board?
23 MS. McPIKE: Due to the fact that we do HIV
24 and AIDS awareness prevention, and we get grant money
25 from the state, the people on the board, -- there
00088
1 would be a conflict of interest if the people on the
2 board collected money from the grant for doing things
3 within the community, so we got together -- This was
4 told to us by CDC, Karen Johnson, director, -- and so
5 we got together in July and decided to -- decided who
6 wants to get paid and who doesn't want to get paid,
7 and since Johnny and I have -- both have substantial
8 paying jobs, we decided to be the board chairs and
9 allow everybody else to be our employees.
10 MS. RODGERS: And people chose to resign
11 because they needed paying jobs; is that correct?
12 MS. McPIKE: They were given that option,
13 and they chose to be paid employees.
14 MS. RODGERS: Now, Miss McPike, tell me what
15 is your background, educational background, and what
16 you have done for a living.
17 MS. McPIKE: I've got two years of college.
18 I'm an assistant superintendent of Milwaukee State
19 Facility Prison. I've done 15 years for the African
20 World Festival. I was the board chair of the national
21 and local entertainment committee. I brought the
22 entertainment into the city. I'm on the committee
23 for June-Teenth Day. I've been doing that for 20
24 years. I run the Main Stage. I do volunteer work
25 for Charles D Productions now.
00089
1 MS. RODGERS: So you have run a number of
2 organizations before.
3 MS. McPIKE: Yes. Also I was the manager
4 of Renee's the last year that she was in operation due
5 to the fact that she had other business opportunities.
6 MS. RODGERS: Renee's is the bar that was
7 located at 3500 Park Hill; is that correct?
8 MS. McPIKE: Yes, it is.
9 MS. RODGERS: And you worked there for
10 approximately a year before it closed?
11 MS. McPIKE: Yes, approximately a year.
12 MS. RODGERS: Now, that bar -- Did that bar
13 receive any complaints that you're aware of?
14 MS. McPIKE: The bar never received a
15 complaint. We had police officers come by to tour the
16 building every now and then to see if anything was
17 going on, and they'd get a soda, and we'd sit there
18 and talk. They'd walk through the bar and leave. I
19 never ever had a complaint where someone called and
20 said that anything was going on, never.
21 MS. RODGERS: Now, we have copies of the
22 police report; is that correct?
23 MS. McPIKE: Yes, we do.
24 MS. RODGERS: And for the last, how many
25 years, --
00090
1 MS. McPIKE: It goes back to 2000.
2 MS. RODGERS: So since the year 2000, there
3 have been no complaints?
4 MS. McPIKE: There has been no complaints
5 for Renee's when I was operating the bar, no.
6 MS. RODGERS: Tell me the years that you
7 operated the bar.
8 MS. McPIKE: I operated it from 2000 -- I
9 mean 1999, in October, to August 2000.
10 MS. RODGERS: So when did the bar close,
11 August 2000?
12 MS. McPIKE: Yes, it did. Later on in the
13 month of August.
14 MS. RODGERS: August 2000?
15 MS. McPIKE: Yes, I'm pretty sure it was
16 August.
17 MS. RODGERS: And so when -- What was the
18 reason, if you know, for that bar closing?
19 MS. McPIKE: She just chose to do other
20 things. She got tired of the bar business for right
21 then. She wanted to do restaurant business, and she
22 couldn't really operate two businesses fully, and
23 she -- and the patrons, you know, were dropping off
24 and stuff like that because the clientele was slowing
25 down a little bit. It usually does that in the tavern
00091
1 business.
2 MS. RODGERS: So she chose to close the bar.
3 MS. McPIKE: Yes, she did. That was her
4 decision.
5 MS. RODGERS: Okay. And during the last
6 year she was open, did you have any complaints from
7 any neighbors calling the bar?
8 MS. McPIKE: No, I did not. None.
9 MS. RODGERS: Did you have any calls from
10 the police department, any visits by the police
11 department, other than those that were just friendly
12 visits?
13 MS. McPIKE: No, never.
14 MS. RODGERS: You did or did not have
15 visits?
16 MS. McPIKE: No, I did not have any negative
17 police reports, no.
18 MS. RODGERS: Okay. There's been talk about
19 a party in January of 2003; is that correct?
20 MS. McPIKE: Yes.
21 MS. RODGERS: Tell me what you know about
22 that party that happened in January of 2003.
23 MS. McPIKE: Okay. When Johnny and I first
24 applied for the license, we were talking to the clerk,
25 and the clerk -- I asked the clerk would our license
00092
1 possibly come before the Common Council prior to
2 December 31st. And she stated she don't see no reason
3 why not. But then there came the issue where they
4 couldn't find Johnny's fingerprints for some reason.
5 In the process when she did that, I did not
6 try -- we did not try, as an organization, to locate
7 any other place because I was just -- it may have been
8 a foolish move, but I was hoping to use the club for
9 that event.
10 Well, since it didn't materialize, I
11 discussed it with Charles and Johnny, since Charles
12 is in charge of HIV, because what we do is that we
13 cater to people that are sick with the disease or
14 people that know people that are sick with the
15 disease, and give them a safe haven for one night to
16 enjoy themselves. And we've been doing that -- When
17 you do things like that with the community, you can't
18 lax one year to the next because they like repetition.
19 So we sat down, and we decided we have to
20 have it somewhere, and so Charles said, "Why not use
21 my apartment." And I said -- we all decided it was
22 fine, we'll use his apartment. And since the flyers
23 were out for the club, we just directed the people
24 upstairs to the apartment. And our attendance was
25 very low that night due to the fact that people
00093
1 thought we weren't going to have it, so --
2 MS. RODGERS: Okay. So during the testimony
3 at the last hearing before this one, Mr. -- Well, the
4 owner of T.J.'s testified that he came to the bar and
5 was charged a fee. Did that in fact happen?
6 MS. McPIKE: When Mr. T.J. and his brother
7 came to the bar, they were in a very hostile state.
8 When they came to the bar, T.J. stayed outside the
9 bar. His brother stood inside the threshold of the
10 bar door, and when they was standing there, I said,
11 yes, there's a 15-dollar donation. He started
12 swearing at me for lack of any other words to say, was
13 swearing at me verbally, and I looked at him and said,
14 "What's wrong?" And he stormed out the door. T.J.
15 never spoke to me one time during that event, as he so
16 stated under oath that he did.
17 MS. RODGERS: So his brother talked to you
18 about that.
19 MS. McPIKE: Yes, his brother. And I had a
20 really brief conversation. After the conversation, I
21 went upstairs and instructed Johnny and Charles to go
22 speak to the man to find out what the issue is he's
23 talking about, because if I would have known that them
24 few cars were parked on his lot illegally, they would
25 never have been parked there.
00094
1 MS. RODGERS: So you're not even sure if
2 there were cars parked there; is that correct?
3 MS. McPIKE: I didn't even know. I mean I
4 didn't even know there were cars parked there.
5 MS. RODGERS: Now, there's also been a
6 question about the application itself and how you
7 signed your name as president of the organization; is
8 that correct?
9 MS. McPIKE: Yes.
10 MS. RODGERS: Can you just tell us about
11 that, please?
12 MS. McPIKE: When Johnny and I went into the
13 clerk's office again, at that same time there was a
14 thing that said president/vice president, and it had
15 slash, board. I asked the lady, I said, "Well, I'm
16 not the president, nor is Johnny the vice president."
17 She said, "Well, if you're a board member, you sign
18 right there, also." So that's what I did, you know,
19 and that's -- I did not sign as no president. My job
20 does not allow me to falsify information nor perjure
21 myself. I wouldn't even do that.
22 MS. RODGERS: What job do you currently
23 have?
24 MS. McPIKE: I'm the assistant
25 superintendent at a minimum security prison.
00095
1 MS. RODGERS: So you would not have, under
2 any circumstances, signed a document under oath that
3 was incorrect.
4 MS. McPIKE: I was being aboveboard. I was
5 trying be aboveboard. I was not trying to do anything
6 else. It just came as a shock to me to even get the
7 citation.
8 MS. RODGERS: And that citation happened
9 when?
10 MS. McPIKE: Right after I talked to
11 Mr. Copeland. He said he had -- I had to get a --
12 what is that called, -- a notarized statement in to
13 him within -- well, I'll say within a few days,
14 stating that Charles Daniels has nothing to do with
15 the club. And then I said, well, I'll get in touch
16 with my lawyer. And then when I got in touch with
17 you, the next day I got the citation.
18 MS. RODGERS: So the citation took place
19 after your meeting on -- the town hall meeting on
20 February 14th, 2003?
21 MS. McPIKE: Yes.
22 MS. RODGERS: And what is the status of that
23 citation currently?
24 MS. McPIKE: I go to court June 9th.
25 MS. RODGERS: Okay. I have nothing further.
00096
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Questions by committee?
2 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Mr. Chairman.
3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Henningsen.
4 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: When you were the
5 manager at the previous location, the previous
6 establishment, it was open from October through
7 August?
8 MS. McPIKE: I'm pretty sure it closed in
9 August because I left the beginning of August, and I
10 think she just shut down around then, because I lot
11 contact with her.
12 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: So you were there
13 about nine months?
14 MS. McPIKE: Yes, I was.
15 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Did you ever get up to
16 full capacity, which is about what, 200?
17 MS. McPIKE: Yes, I did. Yes.
18 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Where did the people
19 park then?
20 MS. McPIKE: We had an agreement with the
21 optical place, I'm assuming that was, and he stated
22 that we could park there as long as we picked up the
23 rubbish afterwards, and which I made certain that
24 after every event, my security and I would walk out
25 there and pick up all the rubbish, which wasn't much,
00097
1 but we would pick it up in the area and throw it away.
2 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: How many parking
3 spaces were in that parking lot, do you know,
4 approximately?
5 MS. McPIKE: A good 15.
6 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Fifteen?
7 MS. McPIKE: Yeah.
8 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: No, it had to be a
9 hundred, right?
10 MS. McPIKE: No.
11 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: The optometry parking
12 lot?
13 ALDERMAN MURPHY: It's less than a hundred,
14 but probably more than 15.
15 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Seventy-five.
16 MS. McPIKE: At the same time we was sharing
17 it with T.J., so he, you know, sometimes had capacity,
18 too, so people had to park on the street.
19 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Okay. So besides that
20 parking lot which was shared with T.J., where did your
21 patrons park?
22 MS. McPIKE: On the street.
23 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: But where in
24 particular?
25 MS. McPIKE: Around the bar area, sir.
00098
1 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: So referring back to
2 this --
3 MS. McPIKE: This map isn't right.
4 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Referring back to that
5 map, in the yellow sections, do you agree that those
6 are no parking areas?
7 MS. McPIKE: No, I don't agree. I see where
8 the off-ramp area to the south of us is, but in front
9 of this lady's house, that is a parking area.
10 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: So on the north side
11 of the street in the 3500 block of Park Hill, that's
12 parking?
13 MS. McPIKE: 3500 block of --
14 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Park Hill.
15 MS. McPIKE: Okay, you're right.
16 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: That's parking?
17 MS. McPIKE: Yes. Right in front of the
18 gas station, right before the driveway was parking,
19 because I used to park my car there.
20 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Correct.
21 MS. McPIKE: And then there was -- A few
22 spaces between the optical place and T.J.'s, there was
23 parking. And in front of the bar and around the
24 corner was parking, too.
25 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Parking around the
00099
1 corner of --
2 MS. McPIKE: Oh, I'm sorry. Of the club.
3 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: On 36th?
4 MS. McPIKE: I'm sorry, yes.
5 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: On 36th.
6 MS. McPIKE: Is that 36th? Yes, sir. Yes,
7 it is.
8 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: And also on Mount
9 Vernon.
10 MR. SCHRIMPF: Yes.
11 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Okay. So as an
12 estimate, the street spaces that are legal that are in
13 the same block or across the street from the premises
14 would be around 30?
15 MS. McPIKE: Yes, around 30.
16 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: All right. Thank you.
17 MS. McPIKE: And can I also answer that a
18 lot of patrons that come there do not have vehicles.
19 They catch the bus.
20 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: All right. When this
21 place was open when I went in it, people were using
22 street cars to get there.
23 CHAIRMAN BOHL: You're dating yourself,
24 Alderman Henningsen.
25 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: I know. I've had
00100
1 surgery.
2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Any other questions by
3 committee?
4 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Chair.
5 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Alderman Davis.
6 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Miss McPike, Mr. Jones had
7 stated that he encountered you at the door when this
8 alleged party occurred.
9 MS. McPIKE: Yes.
10 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Was that true?
11 MS. McPIKE: No, it is not true. He never
12 spoke to me, sir. He stood -- he was behind his
13 brother the whole time. I had to peak around to see
14 who he was. His brother is about 6'4", and he stood
15 there and started pointing his finger. It was like a
16 five-second ordeal. The man came and cussed me out,
17 turned around and left. And T.J. just stared me down
18 and walked around the corner, smiling with that smirk
19 of his. That's all that was going on.
20 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Were you at the door --
21 MS. McPIKE: Yes, I was.
22 ALDERMAN DAVIS: -- the night of that New
23 Year's Eve party?
24 MS. McPIKE: Yes, I was.
25 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Okay. And he states in his
00101
1 testimony that after he encountered you, and he -- he
2 indicated that he was going to call the cops. And it
3 states that, "They started clearing out. We went and
4 called the cops, and the cop was there, and everybody
5 was bombarding out of the parking lot, and it was
6 pretty much empty after 10, 15 minutes, I think. I
7 don't know if the whole bar was empty, but the lot was
8 empty."
9 Is that true, that after your encounter with
10 Mr. Jones, that the party broke out and everybody left
11 the party?
12 MS. McPIKE: No, that's not true. There was
13 only about 10 cars in the lot, you know. And when he
14 stated that, that there were people -- that they were
15 going to call the police, I told everybody else that
16 they had to go get their cars off of the lot, and they
17 went to move the cars. And some parked them on the
18 street and some decided to go home.
19 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Okay. I'm getting
20 conflicting testimony, but this was read into the
21 record, and you're telling me that the patrons stayed
22 after --
23 MS. McPIKE: Some of the patrons stayed,
24 yes, and some of them chose to go home.
25 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions?
00102
1 ALDERMAN DAVIS: And then, Mr. Chair, --
2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Yes, Alderman. I'm sorry.
3 Go ahead.
4 ALDERMAN DAVIS: And also were you aware
5 that there was a 15-dollar cover charge at this
6 specific party?
7 MS. McPIKE: There was a 15-dollar donation,
8 sir. It wasn't a cover charge. That money is
9 applied, as Charles stated, for other -- We do this to
10 enhance our monetary account so we can do other things
11 free for the community. Yes. And then the community
12 is aware of this when they do come.
13 ALDERMAN DAVIS: And can you state again who
14 hosted this party?
15 MS. McPIKE: Charles D Productions hosted
16 the party. He was the one in charge because it was an
17 HIV and AIDS awareness party.
18 ALDERMAN DAVIS: And is Charles D
19 Productions a nonprofit organization?
20 MS. McPIKE: Yes, sir, it is.
21 ALDERMAN DAVIS: And they're registered up
22 under --
23 MS. McPIKE: 501.
24 ALDERMAN DAVIS: -- 501 (C) (3), so that
25 they can receive charitable contributions?
00103
1 MS. McPIKE: Yes, sir.
2 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Okay. I have a question
3 for Officer Hogan. I mean Sergeant Hogan.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Sergeant Hogan, we have a
5 question for you from Alderman Davis.
6 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Sergeant Hogan, is there
7 any police report on this particular incident, whereas
8 Mr. Jones contacted the police, and law enforcement
9 was dispatched out to this particular area?
10 SERGEANT HOGAN: This is the New Year's
11 Eve incident?
12 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Correct.
13 SERGEANT HOGAN: No, there is not.
14 ALDERMAN DAVIS: There is not.
15 SERGEANT HOGAN: No. I can verify that the
16 police were in fact dispatched there, but there was no
17 report filed.
18 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Okay. Thank you,
19 Mr. Chair.
20 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Alderman Murphy?
21 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Miss McPike, the donation
22 of $15, if an individual didn't want to donate, were
23 they still allowed in?
24 MS. McPIKE: Sure, they were, because a lot
25 of the people that are inflicted with the illness
00104
1 don't have any money.
2 ALDERMAN MURPHY: So you never turned
3 anybody down that came to the door that didn't have
4 $15.
5 MS. McPIKE: No, because I'm involved with
6 the community. I know practically everybody that's
7 ill.
8 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Okay. Thank you. The
9 other question is while you were working from 1999
10 to the year 2000, those nine months, was the
11 establishment -- What were the hours of operation?
12 MS. McPIKE: I would start work around 8:00
13 stocking up the bar, and we would close at bar time,
14 probably to like 2:00.
15 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Were they open seven days
16 a week?
17 MS. McPIKE: No. We were closed on Mondays.
18 ALDERMAN MURPHY: You weren't closed any
19 other days?
20 MS. McPIKE: No.
21 ALDERMAN MURPHY: So it was open six days a
22 week?
23 MS. McPIKE: Yes.
24 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Okay.
25 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Mr. Chairman, a
00105
1 follow-up question.
2 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Certainly. Go ahead.
3 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Miss McPike, were you
4 informed or did you know that that optometrist place
5 withdrew their permission to park there during the
6 time you were there?
7 MS. McPIKE: No, sir. I did not know that
8 until we had that committee meeting with the
9 neighbors. I was informed then that that's what was
10 going on.
11 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: So after you left the
12 operation of the former place, the revocation of
13 permission probably took place after you were gone.
14 MS. McPIKE: Yes, sir.
15 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: All right.
16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: All right. At this point we
17 are working on a minimum quorum. It's been a few
18 hours since our court stenographer here has had a
19 break, and I've had a request from a member to use the
20 restroom, so we are going to recess for three minutes.
21 As much as I hate to break -- not to break this
22 up, but we'll reconvene here in about three minutes.
23 (Recess held.)
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: This is a resumption of the
25 Utilities and Licensing Committee. Miss Rodgers, it
00106
1 falls back in your court here.
2 MS. RODGERS: Yes. I have another witness,
3 one additional witness.
4 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Thank you. Go ahead.
5 MS. RODGERS: Will you state your name and
6 address for the record, please?
7 MR. JONES: My name is Johnny Jones. I
8 reside at 2514 West Hadley Street, Milwaukee,
9 Wisconsin, 53206.
10 MS. RODGERS: And what's your affiliation
11 with Charles D Productions?
12 MR. JONES: My affiliation with Charles D
13 Productions is that I'm one of the co-chairs of the
14 organization.
15 MS. RODGERS: And how long have you served
16 in that capacity?
17 MR. JONES: For about the last five years.
18 MS. RODGERS: So you've been on the board
19 for five years; is that correct?
20 MR. JONES: Actually I served in the
21 capacity of working with Charles D Productions for
22 about five years. I've been on the board for about
23 the last year and a half.
24 MS. RODGERS: Okay. And you are also one of
25 the applicants; is that correct?
00107
1 MR. JONES: Yes, I am.
2 MS. RODGERS: And tell us about your
3 background and your involvement with Charles D
4 Productions.
5 MR. JONES: My background is I work with the
6 Milwaukee Boys and Girls Club for community service,
7 that's been providing services for the last 115 years,
8 and I've been employed with that organization for
9 about the last 20 years.
10 And my background in dealing -- in working
11 with Charles D Productions is as far as capacity-
12 building and providing services to individuals who
13 are suffering with the disease of HIV and AIDS, and
14 providing educational background and guidance
15 materials to those individuals.
16 MS. RODGERS: And Focused is proposed to be
17 a bar that's run by you and Miss McPike; is that
18 correct?
19 MR. JONES: Yes, it is.
20 MS. RODGERS: And you have been involved and
21 have done many different community activities; is that
22 correct?
23 MR. JONES: Yes, it is.
24 MS. RODGERS: And the organization has
25 received citations from elected officials; is that
00108
1 correct?
2 MR. JONES: Correct.
3 MS. RODGERS: Do you have some of those
4 citations in front of you?
5 MR. JONES: Yes, I do. We have several
6 citations from the mayor of Milwaukee, the governor of
7 the State of Wisconsin, proclamations regarding our
8 awards and our programs that we offer throughout the
9 organization of Charles D Productions in the
10 prevention of HIV and AIDS, informational material.
11 MS. RODGERS: And you have also in front
12 of you several other awards and posters and programs
13 that span the six or so years that you've been having
14 your -- you've been involved with running the
15 organization; is that correct?
16 MR. JONES: That is correct.
17 MS. RODGERS: Or that the organization has
18 been in existence; is that correct?
19 MR. JONES: Yes, correct.
20 MS. RODGERS: And you have also in front of
21 you information about the various types of management
22 and organizations -- or managing organizations that
23 you -- Excuse me.
24 You have in front of you awards and
25 certificates that show that the organization was
00109
1 managed in a professional and a -- in a professional
2 manner; is that correct?
3 MR. JONES: That is correct.
4 MS. RODGERS: Okay. What else do you have
5 in front of you?
6 MR. JONES: We also have in front of us some
7 of the informational booklets of -- that was stated
8 and mentioned before, of what we have each year.
9 We have an annual event as far as a
10 pageantry system. We have the guidelines and
11 brochures and booklets, and we also have some of the
12 literature and posters that represents people
13 throughout the community who are dealing with -- this
14 is called the PHIV Project, a Circle of Friends, with
15 individuals who are suffering through HIV and AIDS,
16 and also representing those individuals in a poster-
17 type of setting as far as prevention is concerned.
18 MS. RODGERS: So you, too, have been
19 involved in managing more organizations and have
20 done so in a professional manner.
21 MR. JONES: Yes, I have.
22 MS. RODGERS: Okay. You heard testimony
23 earlier about a party that occurred January --
24 December 31st to January 1st; December 31st, 2002 to
25 January 1st, 2003. Is that correct?
00110
1 MR. JONES: Correct.
2 MS. RODGERS: Were you at that party?
3 MR. JONES: Yes, I was.
4 MS. RODGERS: And can you tell us what was
5 the purpose for that party?
6 MR. JONES: The purpose for the New Year's
7 Eve Safer party is a tradition that has been going on
8 in the community for Charles D Productions, a safer
9 party, where we provide services for individuals who
10 come together for a New Year's Eve situation and
11 socialize in a party atmosphere.
12 MS. RODGERS: Now, the donation that's
13 charged at that party, is that a suggested donation?
14 MR. JONES: It's a suggested donation that
15 we ask from individuals if they can, that we put part
16 into some of the services that we provide throughout
17 the years.
18 MS. RODGERS: To help pay for the
19 programing.
20 MR. JONES: Correct.
21 MS. RODGERS: Do you recall seeing
22 Mr. Jones, who was the owner of T.J.'s, that night at
23 the party?
24 MR. JONES: Coming to the establishment,
25 correct.
00111
1 MS. RODGERS: What was your encounter if any
2 with him?
3 MR. JONES: Well, there was no personal
4 encounter, myself, personally, but I do recall seeing
5 him coming to the door entrance where our patrons were
6 coming into the party.
7 MS. RODGERS: Did you talk with him at all?
8 MR. JONES: No, I did not.
9 MS. RODGERS: Did you talk with his brother?
10 MR. JONES: No, I did not.
11 MS. RODGERS: Okay. And you, too, are on
12 the application; is that correct?
13 MR. JONES: That is correct.
14 MS. RODGERS: And did you sign the
15 application at all?
16 MR. JONES: Yes, I did.
17 MS. RODGERS: And do you consider yourself
18 to be president of the organization?
19 MR. JONES: No, I do not.
20 MS. RODGERS: Did you sign as president of
21 the organization?
22 MR. JONES: I signed where the signature
23 line says president, but it was stated to just sign
24 there anyway.
25 MS. RODGERS: So it says president slash
00112
1 board member, or --
2 MR. JONES: Correct.
3 MS. RODGERS: Okay. Did you go to the bar
4 when it was Renee's?
5 MR. JONES: I visited periodically.
6 MS. RODGERS: And did you know what the
7 capacity -- Do you know what the capacity is for the
8 building?
9 MR. JONES: No, I do not.
10 MS. RODGERS: Is it around 150 or 160 or so?
11 MR. JONES: I would roughly say about a
12 hundred, yes.
13 MS. JACOBS: I have no way of verifying the
14 capacity.
15 MS. RODGERS: Okay. Thank you. I have no
16 further questions.
17 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I have a follow-up question,
18 and I hope Miss McPike might know. Miss McPike, do
19 you know what the capacity is of the club?
20 MS. McPIKE: I'm pretty sure it's 190.
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Follow-up questions
22 for Mr. Jones by committee here?
23 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Chairman?
24 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Mr. Schrimpf.
25 MR. SCHRIMPF: Mr. Jones, I understand that
00113
1 you have a number of certificates indicating your past
2 experiences and organizations, but have any of your
3 past experiences dealt with operating an organization
4 that dispenses alcohol beverages by the drink?
5 MR. JONES: My personal experience?
6 MR. SCHRIMPF: Yes.
7 MR. JONES: My personal experience in
8 dealing with a facility that distributes alcohol would
9 be several years ago, a location called Butch's that
10 was located on Hadley.
11 MR. SCHRIMPF: Butch's or --
12 MR. JONES: Butch's, yes.
13 MR. SCHRIMPF: On Hadley?
14 MR. JONES: Yes.
15 MR. SCHRIMPF: What were you there?
16 MR. JONES: There, I basically worked in the
17 facility as far as maintaining the surroundings and
18 cleanup of the area and that nature.
19 MR. SCHRIMPF: Were you a bartender?
20 MR. JONES: No.
21 MR. SCHRIMPF: Were you a manager?
22 MR. JONES: No.
23 MR. SCHRIMPF: Did you dispense alcoholic
24 beverages?
25 MR. JONES: No, I did not.
00114
1 MR. SCHRIMPF: And Ms. McPike, I didn't get
2 a chance to ask you this before, but I take it your
3 experience in terms of dispensing alcohol beverages by
4 the open drink was when you were employed at this same
5 location when it was operating under a different name
6 and a different manager; is that correct?
7 MS. McPIKE: Yes, it is.
8 MR. SCHRIMPF: And you were a bartender?
9 MS. McPIKE: Yes. I have my bartender's
10 license.
11 MR. SCHRIMPF: But I mean for that operation
12 you were a bartender.
13 MS. McPIKE: Yes, I was the only person
14 there as the bartender/manager.
15 MR. SCHRIMPF: Okay. Other than that
16 experience, have you had any other experience?
17 MS. McPIKE: Not actually in dispensing
18 alcohol over-the-counter, no.
19 MR. SCHRIMPF: Okay. That's all I have.
20 Thank you.
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Other questions for
22 Mr. Jones at this time by the committee? Alderman
23 Murphy, anything?
24 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Nope.
25 ALDERMAN DAVIS: I just have one question.
00115
1 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Go ahead, Alderman Davis.
2 ALDERMAN DAVIS: Mr. Jones, the night of
3 the New Year's Eve party, were the patrons entering
4 through the front of the establishment? Or where were
5 they actually entering at the New Year's Eve party?
6 MR. JONES: The patrons on that particular
7 day would entrance on the side entrance right up to
8 the apartment.
9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Jones.
10 At this point we're going to move to closing
11 arguments, and Miss Rodgers, we'll have you provide
12 your closing first.
13 MS. RODGERS: Okay. We would just like to
14 say that this is an opportunity for the committee to
15 issue a license to two people who have -- two people
16 who have a stellar reputation in terms of running
17 organizations, in terms of being very professional in
18 their demeanor, and I think that they deserve an
19 opportunity to run this bar. We're asking the
20 committee to give them the opportunity to run this
21 bar. They have talked about the need for such a bar
22 in this area or any area.
23 They have indicated their experience in
24 being involved in many different organizations, and
25 they've talked about the fact that -- in showing to
00116
1 this committee, the fact that they have a national
2 reputation for running organizations. And it is, I
3 believe, to this community's best interest or in this
4 community's best interest to allow them an opportunity
5 to run the bar.
6 We hope that the committee does not impute
7 to these two individuals, these applicants, the
8 mishaps that some of the neighbors have testified, or
9 some of the items that they testified they saw, some
10 of the things that happened with the previous owner.
11 Miss McPike has testified that during the
12 last nine months or last year, there were no incidents
13 whatsoever and no calls to the police department, at
14 least there are none on record, and Miss McPike has no
15 other way of knowing if there was a problem in the
16 neighborhood unless the neighbors tell her. The
17 neighbors did not talk to her at all about any -- or
18 there are no obligations that were directed to them or
19 no complaints that were made to Miss McPike when she
20 worked the last year at the bar, and there have been
21 obviously none now because they have not been open.
22 And they did not have a party as was alleged
23 by T.J.'s or Mr. Jones from the previous testimony.
24 Mr. Jones indicated that he thought that there was a
25 party going on there; and there was, in fact, a party
00117
1 going on, but the nature of that party was totally
2 different than what T.J. had indicated that it was or
3 what he thought it was. It was, as testified to by
4 two or three individuals here today, it was a New
5 Year's Eve party that has been going on for six years
6 and held at different locations, different bars,
7 different hotels, and that those hotels have never
8 complained about any of the problems that the
9 neighbors are alleging that took place with the prior
10 owners.
11 This is an opportunity for this committee to
12 say to this community that we believe that Miss McPike
13 and Mr. Jones will continue to run a professional
14 organization and will do a good job of it. I think
15 they deserve a chance. I think that the problems with
16 parking have been there, but they are problems that
17 can be worked on.
18 It seems to me that the one person who
19 testified most credibly, in my estimation, was the
20 person who talked about the parking, and I understand
21 that her objection is related to parking, and that is
22 an objection that is noted, but it is something that
23 Miss McPike and Mr. Jones have indicated that they
24 will work very diligently to try to prevent happening
25 going forward if they're granted to operate at this
00118
1 location.
2 Ms. McPike and Mr. Jones have been good
3 citizens, and they plan to continue to be good
4 citizens. And they want to be good neighbors, and
5 they will do everything possible to make sure that
6 they are good neighbors to the individuals who have
7 some objections.
8 And at this point I would like to say that
9 the committee really should consider very strongly all
10 of the positive testimony that has taken place related
11 to these two individuals and their abilities and hope
12 that you will approve the application.
13 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Thank you. Alderman
14 Murphy, do you want to make a closing?
15 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Yes. Mr. Chairman,
16 committee members, I want to first say thank you, for
17 one. I've sat through six hours of testimony on this
18 item, and I know that you, Mr. Chairman, have heard
19 all of the testimony, and the other two committee
20 members have had an opportunity to read the
21 transcripts. You missed four hours of previous
22 testimony, upon which we had 16 residents at that
23 meeting attend and testify.
24 I count nearly 17 residents who have
25 testified, residents who live in the neighborhood,
00119
1 pertaining to this item. I count two people who were
2 in support of this location who lived in the area,
3 one five months and one three years. You've had an
4 opportunity to listen to the community. This isn't an
5 issue about these two individuals, their character.
6 It has nothing to do with that.
7 When these individuals met with me several
8 months ago now and asked me to see if I would support
9 their application, my response to them was you need to
10 get the support of the neighbors. That is your
11 obligation, to seek out, to talk to, to listen and
12 seek their support prior to my supporting your request
13 for a liquor license.
14 I forwarded them that opportunity on
15 Valentine's Day in February. They had an opportunity
16 to meet with the residents. It's a matter of record.
17 The owner even indicated in a follow-up letter to the
18 residents they apologized for not meeting with them
19 and not talking to them.
20 Clearly communication was the key factor
21 here, and there was a lack of communication, and there
22 was a lack of argument, persuasive argument, in
23 convincing the neighbors that this is an acceptable
24 location. This location's been closed for over two
25 years. There has been past problems with the
00120
1 establishment.
2 Clearly the Milwaukee Police Department,
3 from your own experience of serving on this committee,
4 at least two of you, know the police department are
5 not doing what they usually used to do in the last
6 three years, and that's doing a thorough job of
7 reporting violations or making even simple reports,
8 and that can be demonstrated at practically every
9 hearing before you in the last several months. That's
10 not an excuse, but that's a reality.
11 The neighbors had testified to that and what
12 they have personally witnessed and heard. Parking is
13 a predominant issue in this area. The applicant
14 previous -- this applicant and the previous applicant
15 had made an arrangement with the nearby business to
16 secure off-street parking, so, therefore, not a burden
17 to the residential neighborhood. This applicant
18 unfortunately lost that opportunity. The owner has
19 chosen not to provide off-street parking. As such, an
20 additional burden will be placed by people parking in
21 this area.
22 I thought it was telling that one of their
23 own supporters who testified before this committee
24 indicated she had to park at least three blocks away
25 to be allowed to get to this establishment. Clearly
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1 it wasn't because she was doing it for her exercise.
2 She was clearly doing it because there wasn't
3 available parking in the area. That's parking that's
4 put into the residential neighborhood, and the
5 problems associated with people leaving at a late
6 hour, the tavern, and having issues dealing with that.
7 This will be exacerbated because previously, under the
8 testimony, you had off-street parking. In this case
9 you will not.
10 The other issue simply is, is this location
11 suitable for a tavern. As a matter of record, there's
12 two taverns that are very nearby, and admittedly this
13 was a location of a tavern for many years, but it's
14 been closed for two years, and, therefore, it's
15 considered by laws a new location. Perhaps the owner
16 of this building has to acknowledge that. Maybe
17 concentration of outlets in this area is just too
18 much, and as such, this location can be changed to a
19 new type of business.
20 This is a neighborhood with a lot of
21 children. There's a daycare adjacent to it. There's
22 really two daycares nearby. There's a lot of children
23 in this area. There's a lot of family neighborhood in
24 this area. You've heard from the neighborhood
25 organizations, both the Valley Neighborhood
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1 Association and the Merrill Park.
2 This is an issue that deals with -- or the
3 simple issue is that this is not an appropriate
4 location for a tavern, and as such, I think the
5 evidence is fairly clear, and I hope you listen to
6 what you heard and read in the transcript and listen
7 to the neighbors to make the decision accordingly.
8 MS. RODGERS: Just one follow-up, just so
9 the record is clear. I don't believe there was 17
10 residents who testified at the last meeting. My
11 record shows there were 12 people who testified, and
12 most of them -- I think only three of them actually
13 lived in the district.
14 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay.
15 ALDERMAN MURPHY: We'll debate that.
16 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I think we all understand
17 here.
18 MR. SCHRIMPF: The record speaks for itself.
19 MS. RODGERS: And I know it was a mistake,
20 but --
21 CHAIRMAN BOHL: And I understand where
22 you're going -- where you were going on that. This is
23 on the boundary of two districts. It doesn't matter
24 if they live in -- for my deference, it doesn't matter
25 if they live in Alderman Murphy's district or Alderman
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1 Henningsen's. If they were a block or two away,
2 they're neighbors of this location, whether they're
3 in -- whoever's district, they're impacted by it.
4 If there's a place that's on the boundary, it's on
5 the boundary. We can't help that, but -- Alderman
6 Henningsen, do you have something here at this point
7 before we go into committee?
8 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: No.
9 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. Do we want to go into
10 committee, Alderman Henningsen?
11 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Yes, okay. I had no
12 idea that this establishment could be characterized as
13 gay or not. I was appointed to this committee on a
14 temporary basis. I did read the transcript of the
15 last hearing; I didn't see anything about it in there.
16 But I do want to say for the record I've
17 been the alderman across the street for 19 years, so
18 I'm very familiar with the neighborhood and the
19 residential nature of most of it and the parking
20 situation.
21 I do want to say about some of the previous
22 testimony, too, that there's many people in the city
23 that think In Step Magazine is pornography, you know,
24 and we all know it's not. But when I was on the
25 County Board, I was the main sponsor of the county
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1 ordinance that forbade landlords from using sexual
2 orientation as a reason for not renting to someone.
3 In other words, it was added to the race, color, creed
4 and all that stuff, and it has -- it's had an impact.
5 I don't want to mention how many years ago that was,
6 but -- The quality of individuals here and their
7 experience with running other organizations, I think,
8 is actually part of the difficulty I see, because it's
9 going to be a very popular place. And with 200 or 190
10 capacity, I believe that their good reputation in the
11 community will draw a lot of people.
12 And indeed years ago, it just was a
13 different era, and we didn't have that many people
14 going to a place, and the back was sort of a dance
15 hall, but it was like polka, and it was neighborhood
16 people, and the parking didn't seem to be that much of
17 a difficulty. But it was vacant for many years until
18 the last establishment.
19 I cannot support a tavern here because I
20 think it will actually be too successful, and the
21 issue is parking. Surrounding to the west is all
22 residences, and I do think that it's unfair to expect
23 that there's going to be parking only on the streets
24 in front of the residences, and I do know for a fact
25 that those yellow portions on the map are no parking
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1 areas, and so I think it's a good operation and a bad
2 location, so I would so move.
3 CHAIRMAN BOHL: The motion before us is for
4 denial of the Class B Tavern, Tavern Amusement, and
5 Tavern Dance applications. Any other additional
6 comments on the motion?
7 MR. COPELAND: Excuse me. Point of
8 clarification. Is this motion made because of
9 neighborhood objections or --
10 CHAIRMAN BOHL: I believe he indicated
11 neighborhood objection to parking concerns.
12 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Parking.
13 ALDERMAN MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, I think it
14 would be important that the objections be related to
15 the notice that's sent out because if this is
16 contested in a court of law, --
17 ALDERMAN HENNINGSEN: Yeah, to the
18 neighborhood objections about the lack of parking.
19 CHAIRMAN BOHL: Okay. The motion would be
20 for denial based on neighborhood objections due to
21 lack of parking. Are there any objections to that
22 motion? Hearing none, so ordered. Thank you. Good
23 luck.
24 * * *
25
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2 STATE OF WISCONSIN)
) ss:
3 MILWAUKEE COUNTY )
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6 I, DONNA GULCZYNSKI, of Milwaukee Reporters
7 Associated, Inc., 5120 West Bluemound Road, Milwaukee,
8 Wisconsin, certify that the foregoing transcript,
9 consisting of pages 2 through 125 inclusive, is a
10 full and complete transcript of the proceedings taken
11 in this cause.
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17 Donna Gulczynski - Court Reporter
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22 Dated this day of , 2003
23 Milwaukee, Wisconsin